1
00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,320
Speaker 1: The political fight over student debt rages on as Democrats

2
00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,640
Speaker 1: and Republicans clash over what will actually help a large

3
00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,640
Speaker 1: sector of the US population. Republicans in Congress say that

4
00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:16,160
Speaker 1: President Biden's student debt cancelation plan is too expensive for taxpayers,

5
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,520
Speaker 1: and that it's not fair to Americans who didn't attend college,

6
00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,160
Speaker 1: don't have student loans, or already paid them off. There's

7
00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,760
Speaker 1: also concern about the impact of student loan forgiveness on inflation,

8
00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,680
Speaker 1: which is the battle the Fed has already been fighting

9
00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,919
Speaker 1: for months. But then there's consumer spending. By some estimates,

10
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,360
Speaker 1: the return of student loan payments will cut consumer spending

11
00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,760
Speaker 1: by up to nine billion dollars each month because borrowers

12
00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,640
Speaker 1: won't have money to put back into the economy. To

13
00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:46,920
Speaker 1: get a sense of what progressives see as the way

14
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,960
Speaker 1: forward on canceling student debt, I sat down with Senator

15
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,880
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts in her Senate office here in Washington.

16
00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,280
Speaker 2: Why folks can't afford to send me to college. But

17
00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,120
Speaker 2: I made it through four years of college with not

18
00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,240
Speaker 2: a penny of student loan debting. You know why, because

19
00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,920
Speaker 2: when I went to school, you could go to the

20
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,840
Speaker 2: University of Houston, where I went for fifty dollars a semester,

21
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,200
Speaker 2: I could go to college and pay for it on

22
00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,080
Speaker 2: a part time waitressing job. That opportunity is just not

23
00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:16,479
Speaker 2: out there for most of our kids.

24
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,840
Speaker 1: Bloomberg White House correspondent A Kayla Gardner also joins me

25
00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:22,919
Speaker 1: to look at how the other side of the aisle

26
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,560
Speaker 1: is viewing the issue of student debt and what this

27
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,920
Speaker 1: all means for the administration heading into twenty twenty four.

28
00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,319
Speaker 3: If you look at pulling student debt, cancelation is pretty split.

29
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,640
Speaker 3: It's pretty divided amongst the elector at large.

30
00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,240
Speaker 1: Americans are now preparing for student loan payments to resume,

31
00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,040
Speaker 1: but the Biden administration is working on a Plan B

32
00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,240
Speaker 1: to help all those borrowers who had high hopes of

33
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,600
Speaker 1: getting a little help with the burden of student debt.

34
00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,920
Speaker 1: We spoke to a few student borrowers about what they

35
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:51,960
Speaker 1: hope comes next.

36
00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,520
Speaker 4: My hope for the Biden administration student loan forgiveness is

37
00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,560
Speaker 4: that they come up with another plan. There's so many

38
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,320
Speaker 4: borrowers that really believe that getting these loans and being

39
00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,000
Speaker 4: able to pay them back after graduation would help them

40
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,680
Speaker 4: in the future. But the high interest rates have them traps.

41
00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,280
Speaker 1: My hope from the Biden administration is that their Plan

42
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,559
Speaker 1: B is able to go through utilizing the Higher Education Acts.

43
00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,200
Speaker 2: I also like their idea.

44
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,200
Speaker 3: Of the on ramp. My biggest thing is I want

45
00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,320
Speaker 3: them to look at it from an equitable standpoint and

46
00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,040
Speaker 3: just say, y'all made a decision, the better your life,

47
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,240
Speaker 3: you shouldn't have to spend your whole life paying for it.

48
00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,880
Speaker 1: I'm Nancy cook In today for west Kosova Today on

49
00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,800
Speaker 1: the Big Take, what's next for student loan forgiveness after

50
00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court rejected the Biden administration's first attempts. Senator

51
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,799
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren is a fierce advocate for the Biden loan

52
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,640
Speaker 1: forgiveness plan, so I asked her what the next steps

53
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 1: are for those who still hope for student debt relief

54
00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,000
Speaker 1: and how the administration is setting the scene for a

55
00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,359
Speaker 1: Plan B. Senator Warren, the Supreme Court struck down President

56
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,400
Speaker 1: Biden's efforts to cancel student debt. Now the administration wants

57
00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,720
Speaker 1: to keep pursuing it, only using a different legal rationale.

58
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,960
Speaker 1: But I'm curious, since they've struck it down the first time,

59
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:17,400
Speaker 1: won't they just strike it down again?

60
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,799
Speaker 2: Well, you're asking me, will the Supreme Court play politics

61
00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,240
Speaker 2: a second time in the row or third, or fourth

62
00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,760
Speaker 2: or fifth. What the President is doing is exactly what

63
00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,160
Speaker 2: he should be doing. He says, I got a big toolbox,

64
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,840
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna use every tool in that toolbox. He

65
00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,640
Speaker 2: has already canceled student own debt for three point four

66
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,200
Speaker 2: million people. It's over one hundred billion dollars in debt

67
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 2: that has been canceled. And now he's picking up another

68
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,680
Speaker 2: tool and says, Okay, they told me I couldn't use

69
00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,080
Speaker 2: this particular law. I'm going to try another one here.

70
00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:57,360
Speaker 1: One thing that we haven't heard from the White House

71
00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,720
Speaker 1: on this, I'll call it a plan B of using

72
00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,920
Speaker 1: day legal rationale, is what the scope of the plan

73
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,400
Speaker 1: would be. Who would qualify in terms of their income,

74
00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,880
Speaker 1: how much debt would be canceled? What would you like

75
00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 1: to see from the administration on those numbers.

76
00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,560
Speaker 2: My position is pretty clear. More is better, More and

77
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,120
Speaker 2: more and more is my answer. I got three answers there,

78
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,920
Speaker 2: But I understand it this way. He is going through

79
00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,919
Speaker 2: what's called negotiated regulation, So he's walking through the process.

80
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 2: I very much hope that he's going to make this

81
00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,680
Speaker 2: as broad as he can, But this is what negotiated

82
00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,360
Speaker 2: regulation is about. They're pushing him into another tool. So

83
00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,599
Speaker 2: he's going to dot every eye, cross every t give

84
00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,400
Speaker 2: the court as little room as possible to overturn him,

85
00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,159
Speaker 2: and part of that will be constructing a plan under

86
00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,240
Speaker 2: this other statutory authority.

87
00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,159
Speaker 1: So do you think that it's likely that we'll see

88
00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,480
Speaker 1: the same numbers we did for the last plan, which

89
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,200
Speaker 1: was twenty thousand dollars for pelgrant recipients, ten thousand dollars

90
00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,560
Speaker 1: in cancelation for other borrowers with an income threshold of

91
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,240
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars a year.

92
00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,080
Speaker 2: I think that's entirely possible. But I think that's what

93
00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,560
Speaker 2: I know. That's what negotiated regulation is about. This is

94
00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,360
Speaker 2: why they have a committee, this is why they put

95
00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,760
Speaker 2: it out for notice and a comment. So it may

96
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,960
Speaker 2: not look one hundred percent like what he has put

97
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,920
Speaker 2: forward under a different law, but here's what I guarantee,

98
00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,920
Speaker 2: It'll be something that comes from the same perspective how

99
00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,520
Speaker 2: to help the people who most need that help. Because

100
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,599
Speaker 2: here's what I want to always remind everybody about the

101
00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,880
Speaker 2: President's plan that the Supreme Court struck down, and that

102
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,680
Speaker 2: is ninety percent of the help was going to people

103
00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,600
Speaker 2: who make less than seventy five thousand dollars a year.

104
00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 2: This was a plan that was going to wipe out

105
00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,120
Speaker 2: all student loan dead for more than a quarter of

106
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:56,440
Speaker 2: all African American borrowers and half of all Hispanic borrowers.

107
00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 2: You know, you say student loandad and people immediately think, oh,

108
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,719
Speaker 2: fancy college, four year diploma, high earner. But that's not

109
00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,120
Speaker 2: the description of who has student loan debt in America.

110
00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,440
Speaker 2: Forty percent of the people dealing with student loan debt

111
00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,280
Speaker 2: don't have a diploma. There are a lot of people

112
00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,960
Speaker 2: who are in a family that can't afford to write

113
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,680
Speaker 2: a tuition check. But they've tried. They've tried a semester

114
00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,000
Speaker 2: of college a year, and life happened. When I hear

115
00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,320
Speaker 2: somebody get on their high horse and say, well, I

116
00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,960
Speaker 2: didn't take on debt to get here, I worked, you

117
00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,480
Speaker 2: better understand America shifted. We don't make the same kind

118
00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,200
Speaker 2: of investments in higher ed opportunities for people that we

119
00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:43,000
Speaker 2: were making two generations back. Student loan debt has become

120
00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,360
Speaker 2: the substitute to say to everybody, everyone's got an opportunity,

121
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,359
Speaker 2: but it's an opportunity right now that comes with a

122
00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,760
Speaker 2: terrible hook in the middle of it.

123
00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,160
Speaker 1: How do you think that the White House and the

124
00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,320
Speaker 1: Biden campaign is going to use this politically? This you

125
00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,880
Speaker 1: heading into the twenty twenty four election.

126
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,000
Speaker 2: You can call it politics. But what he's going to

127
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,120
Speaker 2: do is you can tell the truth, and that is

128
00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,640
Speaker 2: that he's on the side of working people. And he's

129
00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,360
Speaker 2: got a Supreme Court that jumped in and took on

130
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,640
Speaker 2: a case they should never have taken on, did not

131
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,920
Speaker 2: follow the law, and reached out in order to substitute

132
00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,600
Speaker 2: their opinion on student loan debt for that of Congress

133
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,720
Speaker 2: and the President of the United States, the elected officials

134
00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,760
Speaker 2: who clearly had the authority under the statute to do

135
00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:31,360
Speaker 2: this work.

136
00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,560
Speaker 1: And what do you say to your Republican colleagues, who

137
00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 1: many of whom say and there was even a Bloomberg

138
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,880
Speaker 1: editorial on along these lines in recent months that said, look,

139
00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,520
Speaker 1: no one has to take out student debt. This is

140
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 1: not an obligatory thing. If you decide to borrow the money,

141
00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,560
Speaker 1: you know it's your responsibility to pay for it. What

142
00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:49,640
Speaker 1: do you say to those credits?

143
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,480
Speaker 2: So I just want to redescribe that conversation just a

144
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:52,960
Speaker 2: little bit.

145
00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:53,360
Speaker 1: Please.

146
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:58,160
Speaker 2: What you're saying is to some eighteen year old. So hey, listen,

147
00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,000
Speaker 2: I know it sucks to be born into a family

148
00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,560
Speaker 2: it doesn't have money. But here's the deal, don't try

149
00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:09,400
Speaker 2: just quit. I not only think that is just plain ugly.

150
00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 2: I think it's bad for our democracy, I think it

151
00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,440
Speaker 2: is bad for our economy. And let me give you

152
00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,360
Speaker 2: an example of why. Back following World War Two, America

153
00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,440
Speaker 2: said to the returning gis, we're going to make an

154
00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:27,960
Speaker 2: educational opportunity available to you. Now not perfectly executed. We

155
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,680
Speaker 2: made sure it was open to many people, but not

156
00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,640
Speaker 2: to African Americans. And it turns out that we've studied

157
00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,760
Speaker 2: the data on this. What happened by educating just a

158
00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,280
Speaker 2: whole cohort of men, just kind of one generation of men.

159
00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:49,920
Speaker 2: And the answer is, they're earnings so skyrocketed that they

160
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,560
Speaker 2: paid more than six times the amount of money that

161
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,600
Speaker 2: was given to them under the GI Bill, just in

162
00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,640
Speaker 2: their taxes, just their personal taxes. So they paid this

163
00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,640
Speaker 2: back to the American taxpayer many times over. But here's

164
00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,719
Speaker 2: the thing. They built the most robust economy in the

165
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,760
Speaker 2: history of the world. They expanded home ownership, They built

166
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:18,160
Speaker 2: America's middle class out of an infusion of support into education.

167
00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,920
Speaker 2: I want to be the America that says, if you're

168
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,560
Speaker 2: young and you try hard, then we are willing to

169
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,319
Speaker 2: support you in education. Now, we can do that by

170
00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 2: making college free or making college fifty bucks a semester.

171
00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,640
Speaker 2: But if we're not going to do that, let us

172
00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,400
Speaker 2: not say We're just going to lend you the money

173
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 2: and if anything goes wrong, your life is destroyed financially forever.

174
00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,880
Speaker 2: So maybe you'd be better off not to try. I

175
00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,240
Speaker 2: don't want to be that. Don't try America.

176
00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,400
Speaker 1: There's a really interesting program that the Biden administration is

177
00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 1: starting to do as part of the Student Loan Plan,

178
00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,360
Speaker 1: the Income Repayment Plan. One thing I am curious about, though,

179
00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,440
Speaker 1: is the Department of Education is being asked to do

180
00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,440
Speaker 1: so much right now, like develop these new rules and

181
00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,200
Speaker 1: take in comments in my own reporting, I have heard.

182
00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,360
Speaker 1: You know, they're underfunded and understaffed. Do you think that

183
00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,920
Speaker 1: they have the money and manpower to kind of take

184
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:19,200
Speaker 1: on all these really big long term policy questions and changes.

185
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, boy, this is a real problem. And let's face it,

186
00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,800
Speaker 2: they don't have any choice. It is what is upond them.

187
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,640
Speaker 2: There's been a real disconnect here. The Department of Education

188
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,679
Speaker 2: is being asked to do more and it got its

189
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,560
Speaker 2: budget cut, and that's a real problem for them. The

190
00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:42,640
Speaker 2: people who work there are good, hard working public servants.

191
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,960
Speaker 2: We're trying to get this right. We're trying to follow

192
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,120
Speaker 2: the rules that the lawyers tell them, that the courts

193
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,440
Speaker 2: tell them, that Congress tells them, and they just they

194
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,000
Speaker 2: don't have enough people because they don't have enough budget

195
00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,079
Speaker 2: to get this done. It raises like this other issue

196
00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,080
Speaker 2: that runs through Washington. Dar you see, we've had an

197
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:02,800
Speaker 2: IRS that's been underfunded.

198
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,240
Speaker 1: Do you think that this is similar situation?

199
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,920
Speaker 2: So I think it's very similar because it's the same

200
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:14,680
Speaker 2: kind of Republicans who don't like what the Department of

201
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:19,520
Speaker 2: Education is trying to do. When you underfund, you bear

202
00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,480
Speaker 2: down on good people who are just trying to do

203
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:28,000
Speaker 2: their jobs, and then they end up with lousy customer service,

204
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,880
Speaker 2: lousy capacity to serve the public, which makes it a

205
00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,520
Speaker 2: frustrating job. But it also makes it frustrating to people

206
00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,719
Speaker 2: on the other end. It doesn't work if you're not

207
00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:38,679
Speaker 2: willing to pay for it.

208
00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,199
Speaker 1: When we come back white House correspondent A Kayla Gardner

209
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,679
Speaker 1: joins me for a look at what the other side

210
00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,559
Speaker 1: of the aisle thinks about students at forgiveness and what

211
00:11:48,600 --> 00:12:00,000
Speaker 1: it all means for twenty twenty four. Joining me now,

212
00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,400
Speaker 1: Bloomberg's White House correspondent, A Kayla Gardner. A Kyla, thank

213
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:05,560
Speaker 1: you so much for joining me.

214
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:07,920
Speaker 3: I'm so excited to be doing this with you.

215
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,680
Speaker 1: I know we've written a lot of stories about student

216
00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:15,560
Speaker 1: loan debt cancelation together, so we're reunited. Yes, How are

217
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,560
Speaker 1: Republicans and people who are skeptical of this plan going

218
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,800
Speaker 1: to continue to fight the Democrats on this and what

219
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:22,760
Speaker 1: are the most potent arguments that they're making.

220
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,760
Speaker 3: I think the best example of this is the House

221
00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,479
Speaker 3: Education Committee. We have seen that committee pretty consistently criticizing

222
00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,000
Speaker 3: the administration over their original plan. We actually saw a

223
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,360
Speaker 3: bill pass out of the House in the Senate to

224
00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,840
Speaker 3: cancel this program before the Supreme Court ruling. They even

225
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,760
Speaker 3: criticized Biden for this thirty nine billion dollar cancelation that

226
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,280
Speaker 3: we saw recently, which was basically the administration writing years

227
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,400
Speaker 3: of wrongs of millions of folks who had been paying

228
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,720
Speaker 3: into this income driven repayment plan for twenty to twenty

229
00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,400
Speaker 3: five years, but hadn't received forgiveness basically because these were

230
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,880
Speaker 3: poorly managed. And they even called that illegal, even though

231
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,480
Speaker 3: this program has been around for so long and these

232
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,680
Speaker 3: folks had been promised this debt cancelation. But their argument

233
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,160
Speaker 3: is basically that it's not fair for taxpayers who did

234
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,959
Speaker 3: not go to college, specifically because it was expensive, or

235
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,439
Speaker 3: folks who chose to go to the trade field. It's

236
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,720
Speaker 3: not fair for them to have to pay for someone

237
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,160
Speaker 3: else's decision. And that's sort of the core of their

238
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:23,920
Speaker 3: argument here.

239
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,360
Speaker 1: You know, I talked with Senator Warren about Biden's loan

240
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,880
Speaker 1: cancelation plan, and she was really saying that the Biden

241
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,040
Speaker 1: administration should keep trying to push forward on soon loan

242
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 1: cancelation even though the Supreme Court struck down its first attempt.

243
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,960
Speaker 1: O Kayla, you've written about Chief Justice Roberts's opinion in

244
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,920
Speaker 1: the case and why it hints at his potential opposition

245
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,080
Speaker 1: to this secondary plan. Can you explain that to us.

246
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,439
Speaker 3: I'm not surprised that Senator Warren said that we've been

247
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,760
Speaker 3: writing since January of this year that progressives had wanted

248
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,000
Speaker 3: them to have this plan be in place in case

249
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,000
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court struck down their original plan, and folks

250
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,600
Speaker 3: like Elizabeth Warren had said they should have always used

251
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,600
Speaker 3: the Higher Education Act. They believe that has more authority

252
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,080
Speaker 3: and more flexibility, and that's something that legal experts said

253
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,120
Speaker 3: as well. It gives a broader authority than the Heroes Acted.

254
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,120
Speaker 3: But even though Justice Roberts was ruling on the Heroes Act,

255
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,480
Speaker 3: he still mentioned the Higher Education Act in his opinion

256
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,240
Speaker 3: as just one of these examples of what he believes

257
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,520
Speaker 3: the executive branch has authority in terms of student debt cancelation.

258
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,200
Speaker 3: But he laid out very specific circumstances that frankly, the

259
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,360
Speaker 3: government is already using to cancel debt forgiveness, and that

260
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 3: is forgiveness for public servants, so nurses, firefighters, people who

261
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,720
Speaker 3: have gone bankrupt, people who have been severely or permanently disabled,

262
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,680
Speaker 3: folks who have died, or people that have been defrauded

263
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,400
Speaker 3: by their institution or closed down. And so he laid

264
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,360
Speaker 3: that out, and one legal expert basically said he was

265
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 3: telling the Biden administration, don't try this again. In short, like, basically,

266
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,280
Speaker 3: we know you're going to try this. It's not going

267
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,320
Speaker 3: to work. So any federal court that looks at that

268
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,240
Speaker 3: opinion as a president or if it actually goes back

269
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,880
Speaker 3: to the Supreme Court again, they're going to reference that

270
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:12,800
Speaker 3: opinion when they're ruling.

271
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,320
Speaker 1: And what's the timeframe for the administration to unveil this plan?

272
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:18,760
Speaker 1: B When can we expect it?

273
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:20,800
Speaker 3: Most folks this is think that this is going to

274
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,920
Speaker 3: take at least a year beyond the twenty twenty four election,

275
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,000
Speaker 3: and so we might not see this until the fall

276
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,320
Speaker 3: of twenty twenty four. Exactly what the plan is, because

277
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,200
Speaker 3: all we know right now is that it's a plan

278
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,960
Speaker 3: and they want it to help as many borrows as possible.

279
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:34,360
Speaker 2: That's it.

280
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 3: But right now they are going through this negotiated rule

281
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,560
Speaker 3: banking process which many government agencies use, where they collect

282
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,080
Speaker 3: comments and sort of hear different stakeholders' opinions on what

283
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,760
Speaker 3: the ruling should be. But I can't imagine them releasing

284
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,800
Speaker 3: something that's so narrow and scope and having that sort

285
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,400
Speaker 3: of fill the gap of the last plan. So of

286
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,160
Speaker 3: course we're just anxiously awaiting those details. But once it

287
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,560
Speaker 3: comes out, that's when legal experts and I'm sure there's

288
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,120
Speaker 3: manynservative groups that are waiting for the ccilia, And just

289
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:03,280
Speaker 3: to challenge it again.

290
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 1: We have estimates from experts at the Penn Wharton Budget

291
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,160
Speaker 1: think Tank at the University of Pennsylvania that estimate that

292
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,520
Speaker 1: this plan or are plan similar to it, because we

293
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,320
Speaker 1: don't know the details yet, could cost you know, anywhere

294
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,080
Speaker 1: up to five hundred billion dollars. What does the Biden

295
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,760
Speaker 1: administration say to people who are worried about how this

296
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 1: would add to the deficit, particularly when inflation has been

297
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:29,640
Speaker 1: historically high for the past two years.

298
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,720
Speaker 3: Well, I think the administration's talking point is always that

299
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,920
Speaker 3: they brought the deficit down right compared to the Trump administration,

300
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,400
Speaker 3: So that's what they always say. But Biden's main pitch,

301
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,760
Speaker 3: and this Bidenomics turn that we're hearing, is that he

302
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 3: wants to give Americans quote unquote more breathing rooms, and

303
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 3: he believes that people who have sought a college education

304
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 3: are deserving of this. But one thing that people criticized

305
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 3: him for in the original plan is student debt is

306
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,040
Speaker 3: such a huge issue and a systemic issue that this

307
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 3: plan was only to put out one time forgiveness. It

308
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,439
Speaker 3: was only going to help a very specific group of people.

309
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:06,320
Speaker 3: It's not going to help people who are in college

310
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 3: right now or who are going to apply to college,

311
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 3: And so that is sort of a big question here

312
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,160
Speaker 3: is how are they going to fix this system outside

313
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,080
Speaker 3: of debt cancelation?

314
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,480
Speaker 1: And how are Senator Warren and other progressives on the hill,

315
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,160
Speaker 1: you know, student loan activists, I know the NAACP has

316
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,600
Speaker 1: been very involved in civil rights groups. How are all

317
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,400
Speaker 1: of these disparate groups sort of keeping the pressure on

318
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,200
Speaker 1: the administration to sort of fulfill these promises that they

319
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:33,880
Speaker 1: want to see.

320
00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,320
Speaker 3: Well, they want this plan to be completed as quickly

321
00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,760
Speaker 3: as possible. They know that there's limits in the negotiated

322
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,360
Speaker 3: rulemaking process for it to be shorter, but they're sort

323
00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,720
Speaker 3: of putting the pressure on for it to be done

324
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,080
Speaker 3: as quick as possible because they know that this is

325
00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,840
Speaker 3: in jeopardy, say if a Republican gets in office come

326
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,119
Speaker 3: next year. And that's why I think this could be

327
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,600
Speaker 3: again a twenty twenty four election issue, because if Biden

328
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,400
Speaker 3: could stay in office, he could continue a legal fight

329
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,960
Speaker 3: if one come next year. But if he leaves this profom,

330
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,640
Speaker 3: we'll completely be throdded and we'll be back to square.

331
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,400
Speaker 1: One when we come back. More with White House Correspondent

332
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 1: Akayla Gardner on what's next for student debt forgiveness. Where

333
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,600
Speaker 1: do you see student loan cancelation having sort of the

334
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,520
Speaker 1: biggest political impact in twenty twenty four. Do you see

335
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,320
Speaker 1: it sort of in how Biden's going to use in

336
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,440
Speaker 1: the campaign. Do you see it playing a key role

337
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,120
Speaker 1: in their message in certain states.

338
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 3: It's a great question because if you look at polling,

339
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,159
Speaker 3: student debt cancelation is pretty split. It's pretty divided amongst

340
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,880
Speaker 3: the elector at large, but under very specific groups it's

341
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,960
Speaker 3: very popular. So if you look at young folks, so

342
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,439
Speaker 3: there was a poll by Voters of Tomorrow that showed

343
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,480
Speaker 3: this has the most awareness or popularity amongst young people.

344
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,240
Speaker 3: More young people knew of this plan than anything else

345
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 3: that Biden has done during his first two years in office.

346
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 3: And then if you look at people of color, so

347
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,840
Speaker 3: Black voters, Latino voters, they're way more likely to be

348
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,880
Speaker 3: in favor of student debt cancelation. I saw one poll

349
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 3: that said seventy percent of Black voters and ninety five

350
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,879
Speaker 3: percent of Latino voters are in favor of all or

351
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 3: some debt cancelation. So yes, there's like very specific groups

352
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,399
Speaker 3: that he's very aware that these are popular issues, and

353
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,640
Speaker 3: I think we've seen him in those settings when he's

354
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,320
Speaker 3: talking to an audience that is predominantly black folks or

355
00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 3: protominate Latino folks. He knows to raise this, but this

356
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,440
Speaker 3: is not something that I think we see him talk

357
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,240
Speaker 3: about regularly all the time on the campaign trail, but

358
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,720
Speaker 3: he knows when it's important to certain groups to bring

359
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:40,040
Speaker 3: it up.

360
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 1: It did take a while for President Biden to come

361
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,080
Speaker 1: around on the issue of student loan cancelation. It was

362
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 1: not something that he intended to do when he was

363
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 1: running for president in twenty twenty. He seems to have

364
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,240
Speaker 1: embraced it. Now do you think he's all Anna, Kayla.

365
00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,000
Speaker 3: It's such a good question, because I feel like the

366
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 3: issue of student at cancelation or free college was such

367
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,480
Speaker 3: like a fringe issue, especially when you go back to

368
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen. Bernie Sanders was really the only candidate that

369
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,719
Speaker 3: was fully embracing this idea. And Joe Biden has always

370
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,880
Speaker 3: been or sold himself as like a moderate, the centrist

371
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 3: guy who's able to reach across the aisle. So it

372
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 3: was a big deal for him to embrace it. And

373
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,480
Speaker 3: I think it was a recognition that the center of

374
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 3: the party has sort of shifted, like the fact that

375
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 3: he has embraced it, and I'm sure it had a

376
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,399
Speaker 3: lot to do with polling, like they probably saw that

377
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,880
Speaker 3: this is a popular issue, this is gonna galvanize key

378
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 3: parts of the Democratic base. But I think he has

379
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,400
Speaker 3: sort of embraced it now and he sort of has

380
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 3: to keep going. I don't know if internally Joe Biden

381
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 3: is the biggest fan of it, because he's also like

382
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,560
Speaker 3: the labor guy, and he's also making this huge pitch

383
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,399
Speaker 3: to folks who are in the trade industry. At the

384
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,679
Speaker 3: same time, he's still trying to be everybody's Joe Biden.

385
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,199
Speaker 3: I think he has recognized that it's politically popular, that

386
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 3: it was a good idea for him to embrace on

387
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 3: the campaign trail. But we saw him take twenty months

388
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 3: to release this plan, and I think that was also

389
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:13,920
Speaker 3: very politically strategic. He waited for his key legislative bills,

390
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 3: IRA American Rescue Plan, all of those things that could

391
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 3: have upset key moderates like Joe Manchin. He waited for

392
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,919
Speaker 3: all those things to be accomplished before he rolled this

393
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 3: out just weeks before the midterms. So I think that

394
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 3: was definitely a signal that he did embrace on the

395
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 3: campaign trail, but he was also aware that it was

396
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 3: politically thorny, especially to get some of his major priorities done.

397
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us, a Kayla, Thanks.

398
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 3: So much, Nancy, So glad we got to do this.

399
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to us here at the Big Take,

400
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 1: a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows

401
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

402
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,159
Speaker 1: you listen, and we'd love to hear from you. Email

403
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 1: us with questions or comments to Big Take Bloomberg dot net.

404
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Vicky Vergalina. Our senior producer is

405
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 1: Katherine Fink. Our producers are Moe Arrow and Michael Falero.

406
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Bloomberg Personal Finance reporter Claire Ballantine and

407
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:21,160
Speaker 1: Augusta Sariva for contributing their data and sources to this episode. Raphael,

408
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: I'm see Lee is our engineer. Our original music is

409
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: by Leo Sidrin. I'm Nancy Cook, and we'll be back

410
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 1: on Monday with another Big Take. Have a great weekend.

411
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 2: I'm