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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and you're listening to

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Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you, a production of I Heart Radios.

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Speaker 1: How stuff First. Anna Sorkin, perhaps better known as Anna Delby,

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Speaker 1: has recently been back in the news. She was sentenced

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Speaker 1: in a New York court to four to twelve years

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Speaker 1: in prison on a handful of fraud charges. She rejected

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Speaker 1: a plea deal that could have gotten her out of

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Speaker 1: jail early if she voluntarily returned to Germany, would have

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Speaker 1: gotten her out of jail really um And in her remarks,

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Speaker 1: Anna Delvie said, I'd be lying to you and to

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Speaker 1: everyone else and to myself if I said I was

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Speaker 1: sorry for anything. And also I was power hungry. I'm

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Speaker 1: not a good person. Yeah, this is real Game of Thrones.

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Speaker 1: Whare Yeah? And I think last summer um past Co

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Speaker 1: it was Bridget She loves scammers. She loves a good

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Speaker 1: scam queen, and she was so excited to talk about

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Speaker 1: this and I was kind of about at a loop

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Speaker 1: and I enjoyed. I enjoyed learned about it. But that's

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Speaker 1: that's that's the thing, is why do we like scam queen.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, she also said I'm not sorry,

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Speaker 1: and I'd do it again. She did. I I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna lie. That's just baller. I don't know what else

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Speaker 1: to say. I'm like, yeah, Okay, he owns it, she

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Speaker 1: runs with it. She don't do her she is she is.

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Speaker 1: So we thought we would rerun this, this classic episode

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Speaker 1: on Anna Telvi. We hope you enjoy. Hey, this is

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Speaker 1: Bridget and this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff

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Speaker 1: mom never told you. Now today, I'm pretty happy to

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Speaker 1: talk about this topic. Um. This is a topic that

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Speaker 1: kind of came on my radar on social media, specifically Twitter,

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Speaker 1: and I was kind of obsessed with it. And then

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Speaker 1: I was so pleased when a few people wrote in

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Speaker 1: asking for us to do an episode on it. And

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Speaker 1: that topic is scam Queen Anna Delvy. Yes, Bridget was very,

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Speaker 1: very very excited to talk about this um and I

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Speaker 1: I kind of have read a little bit about it,

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Speaker 1: and I'm excited because Bridget is excited, So I hope

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Speaker 1: that everyone is kind of excited to learn about this. Yeah, scammers,

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Speaker 1: famous scammers are like my fan fiction. Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

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Speaker 1: You know you should find fan fiction about famous scammers.

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Speaker 1: I would that would make me too happy. I would

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Speaker 1: die of happiness. It's a good way to go, though.

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Speaker 1: It is a good way reading about reading in depth

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Speaker 1: a like fan fiction about scammers, I would die with

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Speaker 1: a smile on my face. So one thing that people,

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Speaker 1: if you listen to this show, you probably already know

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Speaker 1: about me, which is that I have a love of

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Speaker 1: things that are kind of problematic. Um I like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have that series specifically on problematic Phase that I

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Speaker 1: was excited to do because I love so many people

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Speaker 1: and things that are problematic. Um. I love Tanya Harding,

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Speaker 1: I love bad movies and bad TV. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things on that list of problematic, kind of messed

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Speaker 1: up things that I kind of can't get enough of

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Speaker 1: is scammers. You know, I've always been fascinated by people

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Speaker 1: who pretend to be something they're not. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons why we kind of

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Speaker 1: myself personally but as a culture, why I think that

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Speaker 1: we're so interested in scammers, it's because, you know, you

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Speaker 1: make so many people that come off as confident, they

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Speaker 1: come off like they know exactly what they're doing, and

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Speaker 1: they you're very good at, you know, that authentic veneer

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Speaker 1: of who they are, and then you find out, Oh,

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Speaker 1: that's all an act. Actually, there's a scammer, Like they're

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Speaker 1: scamming me right now. And I think that there's something

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Speaker 1: in that. You know, part of me feels like we

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Speaker 1: all sort of feel like we're scamming on some level,

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Speaker 1: and that when you meet somebody who is has bold

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Speaker 1: face perfected that scam, it's almost sort of even though

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Speaker 1: they're doing something awful, at least for me, you almost

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Speaker 1: kind of have to respect it. Yeah, and you are

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Speaker 1: not the only one who feels that way, Bridget clearly,

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Speaker 1: because we have found some research into it. But um,

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Speaker 1: why why do you think as a culture we are

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Speaker 1: so into this? Well, it's funny. Over at The New Yorker,

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Speaker 1: writer Gia Tolentino has this great theory that they kind

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Speaker 1: of our fascination with scammers kind of comes in seasons,

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Speaker 1: and she calls it grifter season. She writes, Grifters season

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Speaker 1: comes a regularly, but it often comes in America, which

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Speaker 1: is built around mythologies of profit and reinvention and spectacular

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Speaker 1: ascent the shady, audacious figures, and it's center exists on

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Speaker 1: a spectrum from folk hero to disgrace. The season begins

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Speaker 1: when the public catches onto some series of scammers of

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Speaker 1: a particularly appealing sort, the kind that provoked both shod

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Speaker 1: In freuda and admiration. And I think that really kind

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Speaker 1: of nails my sort of love hate relationship with scammers,

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Speaker 1: because on the one hand, it's disgraceful somebody somebody scamming

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Speaker 1: somebody else out of money, you know, abusing their trust.

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Speaker 1: All of that is disgraceful, but it's difficult to sort

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Speaker 1: of not respect a certain level of boldness of scams.

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Speaker 1: Like there's this meme that was kind of popular, maybe

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Speaker 1: like a year or two ago, Joanne the Scammer. It's

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Speaker 1: an alter ego of a of a comedian where he's

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Speaker 1: pretending to be this scammer who was always running scams

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Speaker 1: on people and coming up with sort of little witticisms

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Speaker 1: about scams, things like, you know, scam today before today,

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Speaker 1: scams you. I think it's a couple of things. I

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Speaker 1: think it's a fascination with scamming in general. But I

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Speaker 1: also think when it's a woman, I do think there's

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Speaker 1: a little bit of an anti heroin thing happening where

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Speaker 1: we so often expect women to be, you know, good

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Speaker 1: and trustworthy, and when we think about scammers or criminals.

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Speaker 1: We think about men, but then when a woman is

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Speaker 1: doing the scamming, I think she almost there's almost this

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Speaker 1: inclination to lift her up as an anti hero. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can see that for sure, and I think that's

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Speaker 1: something we do see in our media and entertainment. And

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Speaker 1: another reason that in culturally we might have this this

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Speaker 1: kind of love and respect of scammers is that scammers

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Speaker 1: thrive in times of cultural unrest or unease. The writer

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Speaker 1: Bridget mentioned before Gia Tolentino. In her piece, he uses

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Speaker 1: a quote from Maria ConA Cova from her book The

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Speaker 1: Confidence Game. Cons thrive in times of transition, and the

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Speaker 1: term confidence man was coined in eighteen forty nine by

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Speaker 1: the New York Herald and pieces about a bumbling scammer

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Speaker 1: who would ask strangers in the street, have you come?

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Speaker 1: And it's in me to trust me with your watch

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Speaker 1: until tomorrow? No, I hope not. At that point in

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Speaker 1: American history, the gold Rush was producing a swarm of

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Speaker 1: swindlers in California, and free banking was enabling wildcat banks

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Speaker 1: and counterfeiters to circulate worthless bills. Scammers love nothing better.

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Speaker 1: ConA Covia notes than quote exporting the sense of unease

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Speaker 1: we feel when it appears that the world as we

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Speaker 1: know it is about to change, which it does make

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Speaker 1: complete sense that that's the time when you would want

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Speaker 1: to kind of play on people's in securities and unease. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we are for sure in the middle of a

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Speaker 1: moment of cultural and social and political unease. Goes on terray.

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Speaker 1: One gets the sense that these days at such unease

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Speaker 1: may become constant. The entire globe is getting hotter, market

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Speaker 1: pressures are accelerating, technology is advancing at a dizzying rate.

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Speaker 1: At some point between the Great Recession which began in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight and the terrible election, of scamming

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Speaker 1: seems to have become the dominent logic of American life.

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Speaker 1: The things that people have historically used to build non

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Speaker 1: scammy lives in this country, housing, higher education had deteriorated

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Speaker 1: to the point where they are likely to punish you

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Speaker 1: if you're not already wealthy. The bankers pushing reverse mortgages,

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Speaker 1: the recruiters at for profit colleges, and the many startup

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Speaker 1: founders hoping to take massive investor back losses until they

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Speaker 1: eradicate the rest of the market understand the world better

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Speaker 1: than we do. That's part of the reason they're so

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Speaker 1: riveting down to the last details. Scammers show us the

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Speaker 1: glitzie bullsh intrinsic to the stratospheric wealth in America. They

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Speaker 1: show us that the best way to make money in

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Speaker 1: this country is to treat everybody around you like a mark. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when you think about it, it's hard not

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Speaker 1: to be fascinated by that, by that kind of social game,

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Speaker 1: treating everybody sort of yeah mark, And it kind of

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Speaker 1: reminds me of the Great Gatsby and haw he sort

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Speaker 1: of tricked his way up into that society. See. But

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Speaker 1: but even when I'm so glad he brought that story,

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Speaker 1: because that story is sort of about the sca am

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Speaker 1: inherent to this idea of the American dream, right, that

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Speaker 1: Gatsby has reinvented himself in kind of a scammy way,

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Speaker 1: you know, bootlegging and lying about his identity and all

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Speaker 1: of that, because and like and like, on its face,

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Speaker 1: it seems like the American dream that he bootstrapped his

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Speaker 1: way up into into success. But actually the American dream

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Speaker 1: is bullsh and so of course it's a scam exactly. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: and there are plenty of quote good scammers of all genders.

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Speaker 1: Billy McFarland of Fire Festival Fame, the British Royal Family Expert.

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Speaker 1: It was actually just a guy from upstate New York.

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Speaker 1: But we want to focus on female scammers because there

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Speaker 1: is something special about them, like Bridget mentioned earlier, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I also think part of it is that we love

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Speaker 1: in this country to root for a woman and then

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Speaker 1: we love when she falls, like we love to follow

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Speaker 1: the demise of a woman, like we like, we can't

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Speaker 1: get enough of a story of a powerful woman gone

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Speaker 1: wrong or well and who seemed like she had it

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Speaker 1: all and then really it turned out she was scamming everyone.

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Speaker 1: I do think that there's something about the vigor with

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Speaker 1: which that we enjoy these stories when it happens to

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Speaker 1: a woman. That's my that's just my opinion. I think

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Speaker 1: you seem like you're pretty well versed in this subject, Bridget. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I actually would love to do an entire series

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Speaker 1: of scammers. Scammers like Elizabeth Holmes. You may know her

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Speaker 1: as blood testing scammer. She had that entire company UM

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Speaker 1: that was supposed to be able to give blood tests,

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Speaker 1: you know, like you could go to a CVS and like,

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Speaker 1: prick your finger and it will be able to give

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Speaker 1: you all these tests in real time. But it was

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Speaker 1: actually just a scam, Like she'd gotten all this money

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Speaker 1: and it didn't work, and she probably knew it didn't work,

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Speaker 1: And a lot of people are like, well, she'd probably

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Speaker 1: be in jail, but she's not in jail. So really interesting,

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Speaker 1: fascinating scammer. Also like black turtleneck scammer. You never saw

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Speaker 1: a picture of her not wearing a black turtleneck, kind

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Speaker 1: of ruin that look for everybody, to be honest with you,

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Speaker 1: There is Vogue scammer Yvon Bannaghan, who was accused of

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Speaker 1: siphening away thousand and five hundred sixty four dollars while

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Speaker 1: she was Grace Cottington's assistant. So many good female scammers

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Speaker 1: out there, So if you know of one that you

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Speaker 1: would love for us to talk about, whether it's a

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Speaker 1: scammer of today or historical female scammer, please let us know.

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Speaker 1: But today we are talking about the undisputed scam Queen

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Speaker 1: of Summer one, miss Anna Delvey. Yes, I love scam

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Speaker 1: Queen of Summer. Yeah, I actually put out I mean

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Speaker 1: this is an unscientific pole. But I put out one

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Speaker 1: of those Twitter polls asking who you thought the scam

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Speaker 1: queen of Summer was. I made the running Anna delve

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Holmes, Jill Stein or like right in candidate I

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Speaker 1: think Anna Delavie actually ends up coming in second. The

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Speaker 1: right in candidate one, Donald Trump, our president, came in

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Speaker 1: first as the summer scam queen. Wow, well, congrats to

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Speaker 1: no one we lose. I mean, it's another that's another

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Speaker 1: interest point about why I'm so fascinated with scams because

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Speaker 1: we associate scammers with a certain class. I believe, like

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Speaker 1: when you think of scammers, you think of somebody who

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Speaker 1: is not a wealthy person trying to become or pretend

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Speaker 1: to be wealthy. We have like rich scammers all over

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Speaker 1: the place. Like Scott Brummett, former head of the e

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Speaker 1: p A, was basically a scammer. But people people don't

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Speaker 1: label him a scammer because he's male and well connected

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Speaker 1: and rich and white. But homeboy was trying to use

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Speaker 1: his connections in the government to get his wife a

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Speaker 1: chick bil a franchise. Like that's a scam. That is

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Speaker 1: a scam. He is a scammer. Yeah, he also was

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Speaker 1: trying to buy old mattresses. I can't wrap my head

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Speaker 1: around that one. Nastly, there's so many like classic scams

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Speaker 1: that if we stripped away the veneer of he's a

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Speaker 1: high level White House Administration official, whatever, it would just

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Speaker 1: be any other scammer with like Farragon belt and like

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Speaker 1: knock off Chanel, Like it is such a budget scam.

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Speaker 1: The only reason we don't talk about it in that

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Speaker 1: way is because of his connections. Like if you if

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Speaker 1: you stripped all of those things away, which he actually

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Speaker 1: resigned so they have been stripped away, if you didn't

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Speaker 1: have that title, it would be it would be anybody

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Speaker 1: else like scamming their way into free stuff, like we

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Speaker 1: like all scammers do. Like he's not special just because

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Speaker 1: he's Scott Bruett. Yeah, Scott Pruett, You're not special. But

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Speaker 1: today we're not talking about just any scammer, right Ridget.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about Anna Delvie, one of your favorite scammers.

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Speaker 1: She's a good scammer. If there was like a scammer

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Speaker 1: trading cards, she'd be the one that I will be

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Speaker 1: really really stoked ticket. So let's get into who Anna

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Speaker 1: Deelvie is. For those of you don't know um and

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Speaker 1: why she is the scam Queen of Summer. After this

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Speaker 1: quick break and we're back. So Anna Deelvie, First of all,

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Speaker 1: she's my favorite scammer. I've read literally every piece of

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Speaker 1: content on the internet about her Horizon fall, including a

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Speaker 1: lot of common threads. I don't know it was her

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Speaker 1: or like her representative or whatever posted her mailing address

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Speaker 1: in prison on her Instagram, and I sent her a

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Speaker 1: smail mail letter asked her to come on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I will update you if we're able to get a

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Speaker 1: phone interview with Anna delvi on this podcast. If someone

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Speaker 1: knows her tell her that we would love to have

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Speaker 1: her on. So shall we come? You know, hear her

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Speaker 1: story and how she got to where she is. I

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Speaker 1: he'll put it that way, which is prison? Which is prison?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think we know how she got where

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Speaker 1: she is. But that's the thing. It's like, when you

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Speaker 1: read these articles, there was a really there are really

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Speaker 1: good pieces in both Vanity Fair and The Cut that

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Speaker 1: are super in depth about the con that she played

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Speaker 1: and sort of how she so successfully prayed on women

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Speaker 1: a certain sort of class aspiration of these women. It really,

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Speaker 1: it really is fascinating and masterful. So first, this Vanity

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Speaker 1: Fair photo editor named Rachel will hims she was actually

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Speaker 1: scammed by Delvi herself and it ended up costing her

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Speaker 1: thousands of dollars. So she wrote this piece about what

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Speaker 1: exactly happened in Vanity Fair. So basically, she meets Anna

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Speaker 1: in a hotel, and Anna says that she's a German

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Speaker 1: heiress who lives out of a hotel. Ana has these

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Speaker 1: grand plans to open what basically sounds like the Soho

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Speaker 1: House of Art, so it's going to be quote a

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Speaker 1: dynamic visual art center dedicated to contemporary art um and

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Speaker 1: she talks about how she wants to use family trust

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Speaker 1: money to afford this. She wants to get investors. She

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Speaker 1: sounds like someone who has grand and ambitious plans. But

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Speaker 1: here's the thing. This kind of plan that if someone

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Speaker 1: have you met somebody in a hotel, even if they

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Speaker 1: seemed rich and they told me they had this this idea,

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Speaker 1: the plan would still kind of sound preposterous. But that's

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Speaker 1: one of the tenants of her scam, which is the

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Speaker 1: same way that Tinkerbell only exists if you believe in her,

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Speaker 1: like if you don't believe in her, she dies, and

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Speaker 1: I had this way of making people believe these grand

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Speaker 1: plan hands and these grand schemes of hers, even though

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Speaker 1: they sounded preposterous and in the kind of way the

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Speaker 1: reason that they are kind of believable is because they

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Speaker 1: sound over the top. Rachel Rights. In my line of work,

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Speaker 1: I had often encountered ambitious, well off individuals. So though

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Speaker 1: her undertaking sounded grand in scale and promising in theory,

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Speaker 1: my sincere enthusiasm hardly outweighed a measure of skepticism. And again, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can see how you know, someone meeting a rich

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Speaker 1: girl in a hotel who's like, I have this grand

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Speaker 1: idea to make this big, lavish club full of art

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Speaker 1: and rich people. If anybody else told you that you

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Speaker 1: would be you'd think, oh, sure of course you're going

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Speaker 1: to do that. Yeah, right. But because that sort of

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Speaker 1: part of her scam is, you know, having this sort

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Speaker 1: of las a fair attitude about money and you know,

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Speaker 1: having these grand plans that don't seem like they would

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Speaker 1: ever work. That's kind of how rich people are. And

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Speaker 1: if you want people to believe that you are rich,

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Speaker 1: having some big undertaking that seems really far fetched would

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Speaker 1: actually kind of solidify that in a kind of way,

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, for sure. And I think just the

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Speaker 1: way she was so she would just buy really expensive

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Speaker 1: things at restaurants, she kind of did have this particular

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Speaker 1: circle of people. So if you're thinking, hmm, I don't

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Speaker 1: know about her, but then you meet other people and

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Speaker 1: they seem to be in the circle of Orbit and

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Speaker 1: they seem to have accepted her, then you kind of

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Speaker 1: start to accept, well, she must have passed this test.

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Speaker 1: If she traffics in this group of people, then even

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Speaker 1: if maybe she'll never succeed in this plan that I

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Speaker 1: think is probably unrealistic, she must still have the money.

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Speaker 1: She must still be in this class of people that

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Speaker 1: she is saying she is in, right, And I mean

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Speaker 1: I've I've actually had a few mild scammers in my

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Speaker 1: orbit and political work, because anybody who's doing political work

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Speaker 1: like you will, you will encounter some scammers for sure.

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Speaker 1: That's another thing that I think scammers really traffic in

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Speaker 1: is having other people to kind of vouch for them

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Speaker 1: or verify them. And I'm thinking of one scammer that

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Speaker 1: who kind of like this is something I knew personally,

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Speaker 1: so I don't want to like blow up their spot.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they there was an entire article about their scam.

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Speaker 1: But one of the things that was a hallmark of

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Speaker 1: how he scamed was getting other respected political people to

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Speaker 1: kind of vouch for him. And so once you're sort

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Speaker 1: of in and one person that you know is like

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Speaker 1: authentic and like legit like vouches for you, like you're

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Speaker 1: kind of in, it kind of like you kind of

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Speaker 1: like game handstamp. And it sounds like Anna trafficked in wealthy,

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Speaker 1: well connected people. So if you meet somebody who is

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Speaker 1: actually wealthy and well connected and they're like, oh and

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Speaker 1: as good people, that's kind of like a handstamp. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I do find that if you the bigger the lie,

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Speaker 1: the more you might be like, well, no one would

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Speaker 1: tell something as ridiculous as that because it could be

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Speaker 1: easily checked. But if you, you have to do it

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Speaker 1: with confidence though, and kind of the way it sounds

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Speaker 1: like her personality was one that kind of made you

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Speaker 1: believe she was this type of person, the specific type

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Speaker 1: of person, and that her accepting you and inviting you

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Speaker 1: to things, it was kind of flattering and you sort

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Speaker 1: of wanted to be someone that Anna del Ve wanted

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Speaker 1: to have in her circle. Definitely that's so part of it.

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Speaker 1: When someone, I mean, two of the people who extensively

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Speaker 1: went on the record about being scammed by Delvy both

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Speaker 1: talk about sort of how she seemed that the kind

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Speaker 1: of person who didn't really let a lot of people

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Speaker 1: in and like kind of seemed a little bit isolated,

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Speaker 1: and that because she chose to, you know, want to

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Speaker 1: travel with them and want to be good friends with them,

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Speaker 1: it was almost sort of flattering. So basically, Rachel ends

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Speaker 1: up going on this lavish trip to a villa and Marrakesh,

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Speaker 1: and you might be thinking, like, oh, that sounds like

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Speaker 1: a lot of money, Like, I bet it was an

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Speaker 1: expensive trip. Whatever you were thinking, it was so much

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Speaker 1: more lavish than that. They traveled a full time butler

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Speaker 1: who Anna was supposed to pay for. So Anna it's

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Speaker 1: supposed to be picking up the tab on this whole trip.

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Speaker 1: Now here's where Rachel says that things took a turn.

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Speaker 1: So it ends up booking a seven thousand dollar a

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Speaker 1: night private riad, which if you haven't heard of that

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Speaker 1: I have not either. It's a Moroccan villa with an

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Speaker 1: interior courtyard, three bedrooms, and a pool. And Anna ends

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Speaker 1: up forwarding Rachel the confirmation email, but due to some

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Speaker 1: seemingly minor staff who the plane tickets have been put

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Speaker 1: on Rachel's American Express card, and Anna basically was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'll pay you back. I'll pay you back, Rachel. I mean,

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Speaker 1: part of me thinks is thinking that girl, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing? Part of me kind of gets it, she says,

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Speaker 1: since I did this all the time for work, I

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Speaker 1: didn't give it a second thought, So you might be thinking, wow,

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Speaker 1: I would never agree to this. But if you think

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Speaker 1: your friend is rich, you probably like maybe you would,

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Speaker 1: Like I asked myself all the time, if I met

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Speaker 1: this mysterious rich woman who seemed to be rich, other

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Speaker 1: rich people knew her. She was throwing money around, she

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Speaker 1: wants to take me to Mary Cash. You know, I can't.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I would do it or not.

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Speaker 1: But I can't say that. My bullsh detector will be

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Speaker 1: going off and then I wouldn't do it. What about you? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I I feel like reading this article was very enlightening

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Speaker 1: to me because if you just sort of hear the

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Speaker 1: details without the sort of personal all of these personal

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Speaker 1: aspects of it, it does sound like, wow, why would

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Speaker 1: you ever agree to that? But at this point they

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Speaker 1: had been friends for a while, and also she wasn't

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Speaker 1: Rachel wasn't the only person going a personal trainer was

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Speaker 1: going as well. Yeah, if if it's your friend and

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Speaker 1: she says she's going to pay for it, you've seen

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Speaker 1: her put down a lot of money before, Um, it's

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Speaker 1: it's a trip that you probably are excited to go on.

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Speaker 1: I don't think you'd have any real reason if you've

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Speaker 1: seen all these other people vouch for her to suspect

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Speaker 1: otherwise I would be uncomfortable when it's like it would

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Speaker 1: have to be on my credit card. I think I

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Speaker 1: would be uncomfortable, But I don't think I would say anything,

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Speaker 1: because you do want the friendship to work. And uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can just see it. I can see it.

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Speaker 1: I can totally understand going along with this personally. Another

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Speaker 1: aspect of it is sort of what I was talking

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Speaker 1: about before, that if you were trying to maintain that

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Speaker 1: you were a wealthy person, I do. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is going to sound like a vast generalization. It does

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Speaker 1: make sense to me that someone who is massively, massively

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Speaker 1: wealthy would also be the kind of person who might

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Speaker 1: be a bit careless with what they perceived as small

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Speaker 1: amounts of money. I had a friend who was very,

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Speaker 1: very wealthy, and you know, she didn't work. She sort

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Speaker 1: of was able to sort of work here and there

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Speaker 1: in sort of creative field, and like was clearly being

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Speaker 1: supported by her parents. But she never paid for a cab,

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Speaker 1: She never paid for dinner. She would notoriously sort of

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Speaker 1: walk out on the tab. It would be like ten dollars.

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Speaker 1: But because she just had a different sense of money

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Speaker 1: than we did. And so for me, someone who is

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Speaker 1: not rich, you know, if somebody picks up a tab

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Speaker 1: for me, I make a mental note. You know, I

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Speaker 1: have to get them back. I have to pay them back.

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Speaker 1: This is thorty dollars whatever. But I got the sense

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Speaker 1: being around her that it's kind of hard to explain,

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Speaker 1: but because she was so rich, a certain kind of las,

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Speaker 1: a fair careless attitude about money just kind of probably

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Speaker 1: confirmed that she was rich. And a kind of way

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Speaker 1: does that make sense, It totally makes sense. I have

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Speaker 1: I had a friend like that as well, where there's

427
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 1: kind of some resentment and we had to talk about

428
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 1: it because I always ended up paying for things and

429
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: he had way more money, like way more money than

430
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 1: I did. And it just didn't seem to even occur

431
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 1: to him that it would be sort of a bigger

432
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 1: deal for me. And like, I'm totally I wasn't saying

433
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: he needed to pay for everything at all, but like equal,

434
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: let's share here, it just didn't seem to be as

435
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 1: big a factor to him. So I'm not I'm not

436
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 1: making this up. It does seem like it's a little

437
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 1: bit of a thing. Anecdotally, it does seem that way. Yes,

438
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: So here's where it all kind of starts to go

439
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: south for Anna and Rachel. Lulls traveling. So Anna's card

440
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: gets declined, and of course Rachel asks the thing that

441
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: everyone always asks when your card is declined, did you

442
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: tell your banks that you're traveling? And she's like, no,

443
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: I didn't. And so this again sort of just as like, oh, well,

444
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 1: she's traveling, it's probably some sort of bank issue. This

445
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 1: is embarrassing to admit, but the times that I've had

446
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: my credit card or my debit card declined, the cashier

447
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: always gives you that very gracious you know, maybe you

448
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: need to call the bank. It's probably a problem with

449
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: your card. You know. They don't ever want to come

450
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: out and said you have no money. That's always a

451
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: very gracious, very gracious. So basically what happened after that

452
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: is that the hotel kind of gets wind that there's

453
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: no credit card on file for this extremely extremely lavish

454
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,719
Speaker 1: villa that they're staying in. Then I'm sure costs. I mean,

455
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,479
Speaker 1: at this point, if it's seven thousand dollars a night,

456
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: I meant this point, it's probably so expensive. And once

457
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: the hotel gets wise, basically Rachel has to foot the

458
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: bill in order for them to leave. And again that

459
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: would be so I mean, I don't know what I

460
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 1: would do in that situation. If you're being held in

461
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: a foreign country and you don't really have a lot

462
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 1: of money, and you don't you're not able to leave

463
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: And listen, a Vanity Fair photo editor probably does not

464
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: make that much money. This is probably an intensely terrifying

465
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: thing for her. Oh yeah, And in the article she

466
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 1: talks about how hotel security was like in their room

467
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: all the time, kind of waiting for them, not letting

468
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: them go anywhere. The personal trainers that went with them,

469
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: she had already left because she had like the stomach issue,

470
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: so she Rachel was alone with Anna and Rachel by

471
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: this point was stressed out as well, and she wanted

472
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: to go ahead and leave, and they wouldn't let her

473
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: leave unless somebody paid, paid up, put a credit card down,

474
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: and Rachel was the one that had to do it.

475
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 1: And Anna was saying, you know, well, I can fix this.

476
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 1: I can't do it now. She was kind of being

477
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: she was very stressed about it and not being too

478
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 1: clear about how to solve the problem. She she was

479
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 1: sort of like, I'm not sure why this is happening.

480
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: I don't understand, and not offering any real solution. I mean,

481
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 1: you would hope that if you're super wealthy friend, you know,

482
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: was this was happening, that they would be like, oh,

483
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,479
Speaker 1: let me call my dad, let me do this, let

484
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: me do that. But it doesn't surprise me. I mean,

485
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure that Rachel was very frustrated, but it doesn't Again,

486
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: the way that she was acting does not surprise me

487
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: that it didn't immediately kick in that oh, this girl

488
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: is broke and she's she's scamming all of us. So

489
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: when they get back to America, Rachel's trying to get

490
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 1: her money back, and it really sounds like she started

491
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: to kind of unravel. She writes, stress consumed to my

492
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: sleep and fueled my days. My co workers saw me unravel.

493
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: I came to the office looking pale and undone. This

494
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: it sounds like this sort of that just take over

495
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: her life. This one trip and this one arrangement with

496
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 1: this one person that she happened to randomly meet in

497
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: the hotel sounds like it was starting to take over

498
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: her full life. Yeah, and wasn't it like seventy thousand

499
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 1: dollars on her credit card? So much money? I mean

500
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: in the article it's quoted as being more than her

501
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: her yearly salaries. This is a year's worth of work

502
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: that is gone because of this one person. That's an

503
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: amount of money. I can't imagine if you you thought

504
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 1: you a friend was going to foot it, and then

505
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: all of a sudden it's on you and you weren't

506
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: anticipating it and you probably don't have it. That level

507
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: of stress must have been unbearable. Yeah, that would that

508
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: would ruin my life. So basically, Rachel gets the police involved,

509
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 1: and only then is the sort of grandness of this

510
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: whole situation revealed to her. She was accused of falsifying

511
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: documents from international banks showing accounts abroad with a total

512
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: balance of approximately sixty million Euro that's about seventy million

513
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 1: American dollars, according to a press relation from the New

514
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: York County District Attorney's Office announcing the indictment. In late

515
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: she took those documents to the City National Bank and

516
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: an attempt to secure a twenty two million dollar loan

517
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: creation for her arts foundation and private club. When City

518
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: National Bank denied a loan, she showed the same documents

519
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: to Fortress Investment Group in Midtown, New York. Fortress agreed

520
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: to consider the loan if Anna provided a hundred thousand

521
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 1: dollars to cover legal and due diligence expenses. On January twelve, seventeen,

522
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: almost a month before, she returned to New York and

523
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: secured a hundred thousand dollar loan from City National Bank

524
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: by convincing the bank representative that her overdraft her account.

525
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: She allegedly promised the bank that she would wire funds

526
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 1: shortly to cover the overdraft, which is a very familiar

527
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: thing in her world. She gave the browed money to Fortress,

528
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: so basically she was moving around so many different large

529
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: quantities of money, like millions and millions of dollars and

530
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: sort of kind of, um, what's the expression, like robbing

531
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: Peter to pay Paul, Like getting money from getting a

532
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 1: loan secured from one bank and then using that loan

533
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: to get another loan from another bank, Like a massive

534
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: shell game where there was never really any money to

535
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: begin with. It kind of sounds like a pyramid scheme,

536
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: but with like people people in money, not at no

537
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: products at all, just just one person convincing people she

538
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: had money somewhere and she'd get it back to you exact,

539
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: actually exactly. And this quote that Rachel has from her

540
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: piece kind of you know, chronicling her nightmare with Anna,

541
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: really nails it. Anna represented the kind of life we

542
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: all wish we could have. It's too good to be true.

543
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: The reality of Anna's behind the scenes dealings, these figures

544
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: flying from one account to another, remains daizy to this

545
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: day that she was allegedly orchestrating such an elaborate scheme

546
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: while maintaining a believable surface cool building her debit cards

547
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: to pay for dinners, workouts, beauty products, and spot treatments.

548
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: She conjured a glittering, frictionless city. Whatever one wanted could

549
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: be bought wherever one wanted to go was a cab

550
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: or a plane right away. The audacity of her performance

551
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: sold itself until it collapsed under the weight of its

552
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: own ambition. It's part of why I believed her, to

553
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: continue to believe her. Who would think to make this

554
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: up such an elaborate tale and carry on with this

555
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: for so long? Who was she? How do you know

556
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: who anyone is? Really? And I think that line really

557
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: does a great job with encapsulating what makes someone like

558
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: Anna so so kind of mystify. You know, she really

559
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: represented this world where everything is possible. It's not surprising

560
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: to me this has all happened on the backdrop of

561
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: New York City, because when you live in New York,

562
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: as I did for a few years, it seems like

563
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: there are two cities. Right There's the one city where

564
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: you are toiling and you're always sweaty, and everything is

565
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: always a nightmare, and even something simple like wanting to

566
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: get groceries or going to the bank is a huge ordeal,

567
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: and everything is hard. And listen, I just when I

568
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: lived in New York, my my biggest memories were like

569
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: toil and how everything was. It was always something like

570
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: just to get groceries was the biggest pain in the world.

571
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: And I always felt like I was sort of battling

572
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: the city. And then you would see these rich, moneyed, wealthy,

573
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: well connected girls who seemingly lived in a different cities

574
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: like we lived. We lived in the same city, but

575
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: we lived in two different cities in a kind of way.

576
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: And I think Anna represented the possibility that you could

577
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: live in a world where do you think you want,

578
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: whether it's a massage or a private workout, or a

579
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: trip to Marrakesh or a personalized gown, whatever it is

580
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: that you want, you can have it. Like that is

581
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: so seductive, and of course, like who wouldn't want that?

582
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: I think it is this sort of modern day Great

583
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: gats the American dream, where you know, you can move

584
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: to New York with nothing and reinvent yourself to be this,

585
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: this German heiress for whom everything is possible, everything is

586
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: at your fingertips. Yes, And I do love that aspect

587
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: of the story that she was a German heiress. Um

588
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: and that quote, I think it's really well written in Um.

589
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: It does capture a lot of why you would you

590
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: would go along with this, why it was believable. I

591
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: mean to witness someone outwardly so confident if the money

592
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: isn't there, but they're displaying no outward side that there's

593
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: a problem. It's it's impressive in a way. It really is.

594
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: I I like someone who I have usually when I

595
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: have money, even if I'm always like expecting my credit

596
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: card to get turned down, like I always am like,

597
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: here's my credit card with a question mark. Used free

598
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: credit cards like gift cards, so you're like, there might

599
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: be something on this one, and I'm just like secretly

600
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: in turmoil that it's going to come back. They're gonna

601
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: be like, well, sorry, man, but this did not go through. Meanwhile,

602
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:36,959
Speaker 1: she's got Annadelvia's no money, and it's just like confident again.

603
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: Like I know she's a bad person for scamming people

604
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: who didn't have a ton of money, but part of

605
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: me has to sort of admire that confidence where when

606
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: you walk up to a cashier and you give your

607
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: credit card to buy something lavish and your credit card

608
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: is declined. Instead of being like, oh, I don't have

609
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: any money, which all of us would do somehow making it,

610
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: you know, it's like let me talk to a manager.

611
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,239
Speaker 1: It's like the person who has that kind of audacity

612
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: that it is so not me, and I am fascinated

613
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: by that person. She really took fake it until you

614
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: make it to its ultimate, its highest, highest point, the

615
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: most extreme. Yeah, exactly. So another sort of major player

616
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: in the whole Anna Delvi saga is Nef Naff really

617
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: has emerged that sort of the folk hero that we

618
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: all deserve in this story. H Nef is like me,

619
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: a black girl from Washington, d C. Shout out to

620
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: Netflix executives who are already turning Anna Delvie story into

621
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: a Netflix show. If you need someone to play Nef,

622
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: please call me, because this was the role I was

623
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: born to play. Um. Nef worked at the hotel where

624
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: Anna Delvie was living and really gives a different, a

625
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: different glimpse into these scams. So basically, Nef says that

626
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: Anna delvi one of the sort of layers of her

627
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: scam was that she would treat the people in the

628
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: hotel very very nicely, like basically become their friends. And

629
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: bear in mind, this is a hotel where she was

630
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: living and not paying the bill, so she was like

631
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: ragging up thousands of dollars, but by befriending the staff,

632
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: it kind of gives you a certain kind of power

633
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: to be able to do that. Yeah, they want you

634
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 1: since you're nice to them. They want to believe that

635
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: you are a next person and that their money is

636
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: They're like, they want to give you that benefit of

637
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: a doubt. Exactly. My favorite quote about Anna from Nef

638
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: she says, you know how Rihanna walks out with wine glasses?

639
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: That was Anna, and they let her by miss Selvie.

640
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: So if you don't know what that means, basically, Rihanna

641
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: is often photographed pretty much illegally, like leaving restaurants going

642
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: onto the street. Was a full glass of wine for

643
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: the restaurant where she was just dining. I think that's

644
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: against the law to like leave to like get a

645
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: drink at the bar at a restaurant and then like,

646
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: unless you're in New Orleans, to de stroll out onto

647
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: the street. But they let her, And that's what she's saying,

648
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: Like Anna Delvey had that kind of vibe where she

649
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: would do these things and people would just let her.

650
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: Right And um, nef noticed the same people who act

651
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: nonchalantly about money vibe as Rachel that is, it seems

652
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: to be one of the key things that sold her scam.

653
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,479
Speaker 1: When you're super rich, you can be forgetful in this way,

654
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: which is maybe why no one thought much of the

655
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: instances in which Anna did things that seemed odd for

656
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 1: a wealthy person calling a friend to have her put

657
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: a taxi from the airport on her credit card, or

658
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: asking to sleep on someone's couch, or moving into someone's

659
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: apartment with the tacit agreement to pay rent and then

660
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: not doing it. Maybe she had so much money she

661
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: had just lost track of it. Yeah, that actually reminds

662
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: me my rich friend that I mentioned earlier. I helped

663
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 1: her move out of her place and I put her

664
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: you haul on my credit card because I was picking

665
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: up a you Hall to meet her, and she never

666
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: paid for it to became a big thing, and eventually

667
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: when I was like, I need my money for that

668
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: you haul, she had just forgotten that. It It just slipped

669
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: her mind. And that that Like, that's what I'm saying.

670
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 1: This is not it's for someone who is super wealthy.

671
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,720
Speaker 1: This does not sound strange to me. It may seem strange,

672
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: but it would only maybe think like, oh, she's one

673
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: of those rich people who doesn't think about money like that. Yeah,

674
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: from what I read she kind of had this flighty

675
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: vibe being sort of forgetful, So I can see just

676
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: sort of writing it off as a part of her

677
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: personality as well totally. And it does kind of sound

678
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: like throwing money around and making it so that people

679
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: kind of owe you or feel obligated to not point

680
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: out the inconsistencies of your scam is kind of part

681
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: of her armor. Nef writes about how she once called

682
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: something out that she found a bit odd about Anna.

683
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: This rich person who actually legitimately was rich. Anna had

684
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: told Nef that this person's father they were thinking about

685
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: being investment partners. This person like had stock in this hotel.

686
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: And so when Nef mentioned this to the to the

687
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: rich guy, the rich guy was like, don't you think

688
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: that if my father had an investment partner staying at

689
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: a hotel where he kind of that he kind of owns,

690
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: that person will be staying in a suite, not like

691
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: a little deluxe room. When Nif asked Anna about this,

692
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: Anna said, do you ever just have someone do you

693
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: so many favors you kind of want to pay them

694
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: back in silence? And I mean, come on, that is

695
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: a great line, Like that is like something out of

696
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 1: a movie. It really is. It's Hollywood. Hollywood couldn't write

697
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 1: something better than that. It's so good. It's so good,

698
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 1: It's so good. Another great tidbit about Anna's story is

699
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: just what a bold face scammer she was. One of

700
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: my favorite points is that the personal trainer that you

701
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, when Anna was still stuck in Marrakesh and

702
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: she had been low key scamming this woman, Anna didn't

703
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 1: have a way to get back to the United States,

704
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 1: so she asked if this woman could put a plane

705
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: ticket on her credit card and then Anna would quote

706
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: pay her back later, but we all know how that goes.

707
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: And the woman said, sure, I guess I will, and

708
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: Anna asked, can you get me first class? Which, again,

709
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: it's such a impressive display that it's hard for me

710
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: to not sort of love it. I think she she

711
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: really tapped into that kind of how people behave when

712
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: you are used to that type of money, that if

713
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: you're used to first class and you think money is

714
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: no big deal and that's just something you sort of expect,

715
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 1: you would ask for first class. I think she's sort

716
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: of understood this class of people pretty well, and she

717
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: played the role very well. Yeah, like I think she

718
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: I think you're right that she knew the markers of

719
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: how to make these people who were not moneyed but

720
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: who were in her orbit believe the scam. Like, you know,

721
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: it's like how magicians they have like a flashy thing

722
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: and that they know that you're going to your eye

723
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: is going to be drawn to it, but that it's

724
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: actually you know, a mister act. You know, it's like

725
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: these little things that make you believe in the scam. Yeah. Absolutely,

726
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: So we have a little bit more to talk about,

727
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: but we're going to pause for one more quick break

728
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: for word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you, sponsor.

729
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: So NeXT's version of this story kind of begins to

730
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: unravel the same way they did for Rachiel, which is

731
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: having to pick up a big bill for a price

732
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: e meal. Um, it sounds like they went on to

733
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: this big meal. The waiter came back to the station

734
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: and began entering the credit card numbers. So basically it

735
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: sounds like Anna gave him a bunch of credit card

736
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: numbers and had the waiter put a bunch of them

737
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: in to see if they would work, and none of

738
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: them did. Next says, I started to sweat because I

739
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: knew the bill was mine. The amount of the bill

740
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: was about three dollars, which isn't a lot of money

741
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: compared to the other bills that Anna was racking up,

742
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: but it was a lot of money for somebody like

743
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: Nef who ended up having to cover the bill, and

744
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: she says that doing so made her feel sick, but

745
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: after all the money Anna it spent on her, she

746
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: understood that it was her turn. Oh yeah, yeah, I can.

747
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: I can see that to you, Like, you don't want

748
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 1: to argue about money, necessarily with someone who has been

749
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 1: at least a your understanding paying for the bill up

750
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: and to that point, exactly, exactly, um, and yeah, that's

751
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 1: really when things sort of took a turn. And really,

752
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: for Nef, what I think is really the hard part

753
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: here was this idea that this was so intersected with

754
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: NeXT's work because she was staying at the hotel where

755
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: networked and so at one point they realized Anna has

756
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: no credit card on file and she'd basically been living

757
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 1: in this hotel and the management of the hotel came

758
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: to have to help her sort it out, and they

759
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: were like, yeah, did you did you know this person

760
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: was staying here without a credit card like blah blah blah.

761
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: And in a classic scammer move, when this was brought

762
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: up to Anna by Nef, Anna compensated by buying bottles

763
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: of expensive champagne for the hotel staff, thinking that like, oh,

764
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: if I get them a pricey gift, maybe little smooth

765
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: things over. Anna didn't pay, and eventually they locked her

766
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: out of her room. Again with Scott Frewer, that happened

767
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: to him too. Yes, more similarities, more similarities. So in April,

768
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 1: Anna deposited a hundred and sixty thou dollars with a

769
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: bad checks into the same account and something I was

770
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 1: able to withdraw seven eight thousand dollars from that account

771
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: before they were returned, and that's how she managed to

772
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: pay off her hotel. So again, really like moving money around,

773
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: using one scam to pay off another person that she

774
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: had scammed. And again keep in mind, Neff and Anna

775
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 1: were really cozy. They were buddy buddy, and Neff worked

776
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: at this hotel, so of course it got her into

777
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: all kinds of hot water with her job. I'm sure.

778
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: Nef writes in the cut that at one point they

779
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 1: called her into the office and they said, nev did

780
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 1: you know about this? She says she started dying laughing,

781
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: and she says that he thought it was kind of

782
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: a boss move, So not what I really see eye

783
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 1: to eye here in a kind of way where even

784
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: though it's a massive scam, you kind of gotta respect it. Yeah,

785
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: it's pretty impressive, just the level of it, the scale,

786
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: and to have so many people sort of pulled into it.

787
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: There's a part of part of you that sort of

788
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: has to has to respect. I gotta give credit where

789
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: credit is due on this one. So later Anna deposited

790
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: too bad checks into an account she had at Signature Bank,

791
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: netting or eight thousand, two hundred dollars, and this is

792
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: how she ended up being able to take what she

793
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 1: called a planned trip to California, where she was arrested

794
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 1: outside of passages in Malibu and brought back to New York,

795
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: where she would faced six counts of grand larceny and

796
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,720
Speaker 1: attempted grand larceny in addition to theft of services, according

797
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: to the indictment, and the cut got to the real

798
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: Anna behind the scam. Anna Sarkin, who was born in

799
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: Russia in nineteen ninety one and moved to Germany in

800
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 1: two thousand seven, when she was sixteen with her younger

801
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: brother and her parents. Anna attended high school in Aischfeiler,

802
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: a small working class town sixty kilometers outside of Colonia

803
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: near the Belgium and Dutch border. She's not actually an heiress.

804
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: Her dad worked as a chuck driver and later as

805
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: an executive at a transport company until it became insolvent

806
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 1: in two thousand thirteen, whereupon he opened a heating and

807
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: cooling business specializing in energy efficient devices. So even though

808
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: there was no truth to her being this rich German heiress,

809
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: I think a lot of Americans, myself and Clue did

810
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 1: probably know so little about Germany that if she said, oh,

811
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: I'm from this like small town in Germany, it was

812
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 1: even that even if you knew that town was not,

813
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: you know, fancy and wealthy, it sounds like a working

814
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: class town, you might buy into it a little bit like, oh,

815
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: she says she's from this town in Germany sounds fancy. Well,

816
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: it's kind of funny because I think it also plays

817
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: on the fear that we all have of looking stupid,

818
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 1: right or being embarrassed. You want to sound like, oh, sure,

819
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: I know where that is, Like you're educated and you're

820
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: aware of that world. You don't want to admit that

821
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: you don't know something. So it kind of plays on

822
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: just the human nature of trying to to fit in

823
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: and sound intelligent in front of people. Well, that actually

824
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: reminds me of another scammer couple that I love, the

825
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: couple that scammed their way into the Obama administration's state dinner.

826
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: So their last name was Salahi, and somebody wrote that

827
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: because this was a state dinner and you had of

828
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,919
Speaker 1: like foreign diplomats and foreign important people, because their name

829
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: sounds a little bit like import, can important, it could

830
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: be the name of an important couple from abroad. That

831
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: that was one of the reasons they were able to

832
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: scam their way into this dinner so easily, because nobody

833
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: wants to look at the doorman who is giving this

834
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: important foreign couple a hard time, So maybe it's just

835
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 1: better to just let them in, even though they aren't

836
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: an important couple. But you know that that idea of

837
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: not wanting to a embarrass somebody who was important or

838
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: be be embarrassed because you didn't know who this important

839
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: person was definitely feeds into it. Sure, And like a

840
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: fear of being called out on your your ignorance on

841
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: something or causing like a kind of a scene. I

842
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: can completely understand wanting to avoid that and just going

843
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: along with it and then finding out that, uh, it

844
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 1: was all a big, a big lie. So another thing

845
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: I love about this whole an a situation is that

846
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: when the cut inner you her from prison, she still

847
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: sort of maintained that this these grand ideas opening this

848
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: fancy art club for rich people. She still maintains that

849
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 1: they were actual plans that she had. They weren't. There

850
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: wasn't a scam. She actually believed that she could move

851
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: enough money around and fund this thing and make all

852
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: the money back. Yeah, and uh, if it's true, it's

853
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: always a more believable story if there is a little

854
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: bit of truth to it, you know, if there's like

855
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 1: just a peppery ing of of true things in there.

856
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: That's the crux of any good scam is a little

857
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: bit of truth. Yes, exactly. So this line at the

858
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: cut I think crystallizes for me why this is such

859
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: a fascinating story. They're right about her her grand plans

860
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: to open this art club. They right. Maybe it could

861
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: have happened in this city where enormous amounts of invisible

862
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: money trade hands every day, where glass towers are built

863
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: on paperwork promises. Why not if Abby rose In, the

864
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: son of Holocaust survivors, could come to New York and

865
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 1: feel skyscrapers full of art, if the Kardashians could build

866
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: a billion dollar empire out of literally nothing, if a

867
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: movie star like Dakota Johnson could sculpt her ask so

868
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: that it could become the anchor of a major franchise,

869
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: why couldn't Anna Delvie. During the course of my reporting,

870
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 1: people kept asking why this girl. She wasn't super hot,

871
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: they pointed out, or super charming. She wasn't even very nice.

872
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,479
Speaker 1: How did she manage to convince an enormous amount of cool,

873
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: successful people that she was something she clearly wasn't. Watching

874
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: the riker's guard shoved Fast Company into a Manila envelope,

875
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: I realized what Anna had in common with the people

876
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: that she'd been studying on the pages about magazine. She

877
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 1: saw something others didn't. Anna looked at the soul of

878
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: New York and recognize that if you distract people with

879
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 1: shiny objects, with large wads of cash, with the indica

880
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 1: of wealth, if you show them the money, they will

881
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 1: be virtually unable to see anything else. And the thing was,

882
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 1: it was so easy. I love that quote so much

883
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 1: because I think it's true. I mean, Anna Deelvie scammed

884
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: her friends, a lot of whom didn't really have that

885
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: much money to begin with. And side note, we actually

886
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 1: don't even know the depths of her scams. But when

887
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: you look at like it does kind of make you

888
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: think is in America kind of one big scam? And

889
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: in a kind of way, that is one of the

890
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: reasons why we're so fascinated by her story and stories

891
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: like hers, because we see people sort of scammed their

892
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: way into success all the time, and in a kind

893
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: of way, it just seems like what this country is

894
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: built on. Yeah, I love that quote too, and it's

895
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: sort of reminds me of um. Every time I go

896
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: to Las Vegas, I have a weird it's just a

897
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: weird feeling and being there that I can't look away from. This.

898
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: This is like humanity and its basis like pleasure, entertainment seeking.

899
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: It's really hard to describe, but I think that Anna

900
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: was able to tap into if you do have a

901
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 1: large amounts of cash or shiny things to distract people

902
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: that we are so hung up on this, and it's

903
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: sort of like reveals the superficial aspect of humanity that

904
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 1: is both fascinating and kind of upsetting. It's a really

905
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: interesting dichotomy. Definitely. I'm sure folks are so tired of

906
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: hearing me make this connection. But I do think there's

907
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: a little bit of a social media aspect to this,

908
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: because Anta Gelity's Instagram is still up and she has

909
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: the artifice of someone living the lifestyle of like a

910
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: of a mysterious, wealthy, traveling you know, rich girl. She

911
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: has that down so well. And I think it's what

912
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 1: you're saying. It's like, if you could have the trappings

913
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: of wealth and that sort of shiny artifice of wealth,

914
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: that really it can be so distracting that even though

915
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 1: you know it's not real, you kind of let yourself

916
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: believe it. And I think that's what Anna traffic in.

917
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: Even though we know, like there is no free lunch.

918
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: If someone befriends you and says they're going to whisk

919
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 1: you away to Morocco for free, as probably not true,

920
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: but it feels so good to believe that you could

921
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: live a life like that. I just This really just

922
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: reminds me of my times living in New York when

923
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 1: I would just look at these these these young women

924
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: who were the same age that I was, and I

925
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,919
Speaker 1: would want their life so badly. I'll never forget this time.

926
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: I had to go to Kinkos to fill because I

927
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: was filling out this paperwork and it was this really

928
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: intense like involved having to get things copied and triplicate

929
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 1: and all of this, so I had to go to Kinkos.

930
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: Kinkos was a little bit far away through my apartment,

931
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: and the subway wasn't working, and so the only subway

932
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: that I could take to get there was was not working.

933
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 1: So I had to walk. And so I walked. It

934
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 1: was like a few miles and the hot, hot sun,

935
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: and when I got to Kinkos, it was closed, and

936
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 1: I was like overcome with this feeling of dread and

937
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: sort of turmoil. And I turned around to go back

938
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: to you know, walk back home because there was no

939
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: way other way to get home. I couldn't afford a cab,

940
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,240
Speaker 1: the train was down. What was it? When I turned around,

941
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: I turned around too quickly and I I ran smack

942
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: dab into a road sign and it broke my glasses

943
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: and so so I sat down on this stoop in

944
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 1: Williamsburg and somebody opened the window of the stoop I

945
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: was sitting at, and I was like, can you leave?

946
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: Can you not sit on my stoop? And right in

947
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: that moment, this black car full of beautiful, thin young girls,

948
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: probably my same age, got out of this car, and

949
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 1: they were impeccably dressed. They were like hipster sheek, they

950
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: were laughing, were the epitome of Brooklyn care free. And

951
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 1: I remember thinking, we live in two different cities. At

952
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 1: that moment felt so I just felt I've never felt

953
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 1: dirtier or sweatier, or grosser or more sort of down

954
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 1: on my luck. I want to be clear, there are

955
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: people who are living much, much harder lives, and I

956
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: was living in Brooklyn, but in that moment I felt

957
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: very down. And seeing this, these glittering girls who just

958
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: seemed to float on air getting out of a town car,

959
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 1: like like a private town car, I just remember oneing

960
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: that so badly, so badly, wanting to know what that

961
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,359
Speaker 1: life would be like to just wherever you wanted to go.

962
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 1: There's a it's just the town car away, you know what.

963
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure these girls have problems. I was definitely projecting

964
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: my own stuff on them. But I see that in Anna,

965
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: where you know, a Vanity Fair photo editor who makes

966
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: sixty grand a year in one of the most expensive

967
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: cities in the world probably sees someone like Anna and

968
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: what they offer as so just intoxicating and the idea

969
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: that you could that you could be within grasp of it.

970
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: I don't blame anybody for getting caught up in her

971
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: in her whirlwind. No, I don't either. It's like a

972
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: tale of two cities. For these are modern times. It

973
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: is though. I know, I know people are thinking, like,

974
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: why did you do a whole episode on this, but

975
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,839
Speaker 1: it is. It really demonstrates a lot of class aspiration

976
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: and sort of the perversion of class aspiration. I think, yeah,

977
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:59,240
Speaker 1: I think you're completely correct. So that's been our first

978
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: and what will probably belivia a mini series on scammers. Oh,

979
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: you know, I could talk scammers all day. There was

980
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: one time I was I was watching this documentary on

981
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: Netflix and somebody came over to my house and I

982
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I've been trying to watch this documentary

983
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: on on wine on Netflix for so long, and he

984
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 1: was like, documentary about wine on Netflix. That does not

985
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: sound like something that you'd be into. And I was like, oh, actually,

986
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: it's about this wine scammer who ended up scamming all

987
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: these fancy wine types and buying like counterfeit wine. And

988
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: he said, oh that sounds that sounds right. I was

989
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: figuring you would not be watching just a straight by

990
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: the books documentary about wine. Somebody would have to be

991
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 1: getting scammed for you to be interested. Well, if your

992
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: listeners have any suggestions for um for scammers that we

993
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: should talk about, please send them to us. And if

994
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: you're a scammer, if you're currently scamming, give us a call.

995
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: Well let's talk. Let's talk about your scams. Yes, Ridgid

996
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,800
Speaker 1: Bridget love love more more than anything to your from you. Yeah.

997
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, let's talk about some the list

998
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: No male Okay. Jacqueline wrote sports Fandom Slash This is

999
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 1: about our fan fiction episode. It exists. Our PF is

1000
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: not slowly limited to one direction. I myself these days

1001
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: tend to read and write football RPF. I think our

1002
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: demographics plants a little bit older than average. Most folks

1003
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: I know in it are in the mid twenties to

1004
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: mid thirties. I also know people who write a lot

1005
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: of hockey RPF, but I don't follow hockey enough to

1006
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,720
Speaker 1: really know more than some of the main players and ships.

1007
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 1: In both cases, though, I think, in addition to exploring

1008
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 1: everything you mentioned about deeper relationships between folks we already

1009
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: see in Cannon, there's something kind of interesting about exploring masculinity,

1010
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,919
Speaker 1: issues of homophobia, and very public life, particularly in exclusively

1011
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 1: male spaces. Maybe I like pretending to be a fly

1012
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 1: on the wall. I don't know, but that's definitely part

1013
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: of it. There's also a contingent who writes film slash,

1014
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: usually about the American women's national team. Women's football outside

1015
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 1: of US w n T tends to be pretty small

1016
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: fandom generally, so if you like me and follow Brazil

1017
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: w NT or Chelsea Ladies, you're just s o l.

1018
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: It's interesting because my academic research has put me in

1019
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 1: contact with several professional footballers, some of whom appear periodically

1020
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 1: and fick. The ones I know aren't that famous, but

1021
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: it's happened, and they definitely know. Some of the guys

1022
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: who regularly star logically be kind of weird. There's a

1023
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: really firm separation and compartmentalization, and the fandom between ships

1024
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 1: pick and real life characterization is thick. Is mostly drawn

1025
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: from interviews and social media personalities. But I don't think

1026
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 1: anyone thinks, oh boy, I don't know much about sports.

1027
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: These two sports folks are secretly in love or whatever

1028
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: present them with slash fan works in person, which I

1029
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: suppose does make it a bit different from some live

1030
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 1: action fandoms like Supernatural or Avengers. Maybe a year ago

1031
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: there was actually a bit of panic when an editor

1032
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: from dead Spin wanted to do an article on football

1033
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: RPF centered around New York City FC players. This led

1034
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: to me and some other folks I know changing the

1035
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: privacy settings on some postings on AOH three. Happily, I

1036
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 1: think the article was dropped. While I don't think many

1037
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: of us are ashamed of our writing hobby per se,

1038
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 1: sports fandom can get super toxic, and our little corner

1039
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 1: AO three and Tumbler tends to be pretty much troll free.

1040
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,760
Speaker 1: The concern was that added attention from say, our slash

1041
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 1: shocker would lead to writers being harassed. I don't know

1042
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 1: if that concern was really logical, but hey, like the

1043
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: rest of fan fiction, football RPF is very much produced

1044
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: and consumed by women and non binary folks. The few

1045
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: cis gender men I know who exist around it, and

1046
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: I don't even think these two right are gay. And

1047
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 1: this was in the wake of gamer Gates, so I

1048
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: think everyone on the internet was still on high alert. Naturally,

1049
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,439
Speaker 1: most of us have been put through the fake geek

1050
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 1: girl test at least once. We all have individual horror stories,

1051
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: but usually they go something along the lines of some

1052
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: dude at a pub thinking we're only there for a boyfriend,

1053
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: or if we are there alone, it's only because the

1054
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: players are cute. Ironically, the folks that produce fit in

1055
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,720
Speaker 1: this fandom are some of the biggest tactics and history

1056
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 1: nerds I know. If some dude really wants to quiz

1057
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: them on who was in the typical Manchester United starting

1058
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: eleven in, I say go for it. Jokes on you,

1059
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: random public ads. I dragged my male friends to matches

1060
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,280
Speaker 1: from my clubs and I can all go in Hazard's bubble,

1061
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 1: but while still knowing when he's offside and that drys

1062
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 1: Marten's is the superior Belgian striker. I totally butchered that name.

1063
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 1: Apologies at any rate, Female football fans are often victims

1064
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 1: of gate keeping, not unlike female fans and more traditionally

1065
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 1: geek spaces. But I wouldn't try it with the fan

1066
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: fake writers. They You know, there's anyway this has gotten

1067
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 1: long if you've made it through many things for your patients.

1068
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: I really enjoy the women in queer folks side of

1069
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 1: football fandom, and I always love sharing it with interested parties.

1070
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 1: It's been incredibly supportive and a wonderful way to meet

1071
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 1: folks from all over the world. Wow, that is fascinating. Yeah,

1072
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 1: I just I thought that was really interesting because I

1073
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:59,399
Speaker 1: cannot only imagine, uh kind of the intersection of fan

1074
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 1: fiction and sports fandom can get pretty toxic, and I'm

1075
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 1: happy to hear that there are these pockets on the

1076
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: Internet that have gotten away from that, and it sounds

1077
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,359
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. Yeah, of course people out there are

1078
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 1: writing fan fiction about athletes. This never occurred to me,

1079
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: but as soon as we read the email, I thought, well,

1080
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: of course people are doing, Matt, of course they are.

1081
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, I do too, Um, and please

1082
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: keep sending in everyone who's sent in their fan fiction,

1083
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 1: thank you, and please keep them coming. Please do next

1084
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 1: letter Nicole wrote, I was so excited to listen to

1085
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: this two parter on fan fiction. Well, I read a

1086
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: little fan fiction as a team. I am now in

1087
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 1: my mid twenties and I've recently begun to write some

1088
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 1: fan fiction because I find it fun, relaxing, creative outlet,

1089
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: and good practice providing my own original fiction as well.

1090
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 1: You touched a little on how women can explore their

1091
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 1: sexuality through fan fiction, and I wanted to share my

1092
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 1: own experiences. Well, I have not read any fan fiction

1093
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: of a sexual content, identify as bisexual, and I recently

1094
00:57:57,920 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 1: married to a great guy I had been with the

1095
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 1: most my adult life. I have found that the more

1096
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 1: quote smutty fan fiction is a way to express and

1097
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 1: acknowledge the aspects of my sexuality that fall outside of

1098
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 1: my headtero monogamous relationship. Through the safe, independent medium of

1099
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: reading fanfic, I have also learned about many different kinks

1100
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: that I have discovered new ones I have brought in

1101
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: a conversation with my husband, and we both agree it

1102
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:20,959
Speaker 1: has supported us and being more open and more sex

1103
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 1: positive than we were raised to be. Recently, a thirteen

1104
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: year old female friend of the family was caught reading

1105
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 1: some sexually explicit thick on her what Pad account, and

1106
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: I felt the reaction of her parents was a little shaming,

1107
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 1: including banning or from the account and sharing their concerns

1108
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: with others. There is certainly some smutty thick out there

1109
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: that is questionable, such as incest. Pis much of its

1110
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 1: more sexuality in a healthy way, and often in a

1111
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: way that acknowledges emotional aspects of sex as well. I

1112
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: think in this way, explicit fan thic might just be

1113
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: one more positive way to explore sexuality than most porn,

1114
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 1: which is certainly something that many parents would struggle that

1115
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: they had caught a son rather than a daughter looking

1116
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 1: at ps. Your comment at the end of part two

1117
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: about making lemon date out of lemons might have been

1118
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 1: funnier than you know. Lemon is a term for smoody

1119
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: scenes and fan fick who knew Nicole think I'd love

1120
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 1: to say that we knew that and that we were

1121
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: making a really clever joke. But I didn't know that Annie,

1122
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: did you? I did, but I didn't catch it when

1123
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 1: you when you made that comment, I did not put

1124
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 1: that together. But that is really funny. Um. I had

1125
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: a friend when we were probably thirteen, her parents caught

1126
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 1: her reading some dirty fan fiction and I mean dirty

1127
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: for thirteen year olds perhaps, um, and they banned her

1128
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 1: from her account, and I shared my printed fan fiction

1129
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 1: with her. I was a little little instigator trying to

1130
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 1: keep her with the hook up. I love it. I

1131
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:52,439
Speaker 1: love it. You were like, well underground fan fiction Network, Yeah,

1132
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 1: I kind of was. Um. So I love all these

1133
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:01,920
Speaker 1: these letters about pople who have found community and fan fiction.

1134
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 1: I'm really happy that that exists exists for us on

1135
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 1: the Internet. And it does sound like it can be

1136
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 1: a healthy sexual outlet, oh for sure, for sure. And

1137
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: even I just think that since I do feel we

1138
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: publicly don't really allow young women to express sexuality or

1139
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: talk about it, I think that it is a way

1140
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 1: to explore things and figure out things about yourself, um, safely.

1141
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 1: And there are definitely problematic things in fan fiction, and

1142
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 1: I'm not saying there aren't, but I think in general

1143
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 1: it is a positive thing that it is. It is

1144
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 1: out there and it is a way to talk about

1145
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: to explore these things about yourself. Definitely, um And honestly,

1146
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 1: it seems like the fan fiction episodes really struck a

1147
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 1: chord with folks I'm happy that folks are still writing

1148
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 1: in and like any said, please keep setting ourselves fan fictions.

1149
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: Yes we're still we were not joking about the fan

1150
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: fig action. With high production value, well higher production value,

1151
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 1: we'll see what we can do um like many series,

1152
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: so keep keep sending them in. We are working on that.

1153
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: You can email us at a mom stuff at how

1154
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com, and you can also find us

1155
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: on social media. Can't you bridget you? Absolutely can. We

1156
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 1: are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and we were

1157
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Stuff Mom Never Told You. And thanks

1158
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 1: as always to Dylan Fagan and Kathleen Quillian for helping

1159
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: us make this show happen. Thanks as always, and thanks

1160
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 1: to you listeners. Please keep those letters coming