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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 2: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, paul A, Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well.

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Speaker 2: I have a little bit of a contact I update

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Speaker 2: thing for you.

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Speaker 1: It's very dramatic.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've been on the fence about contacts, and

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Speaker 2: you suggested that I really think about it.

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Speaker 1: If I ever need to be on camera.

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Speaker 2: I think it's you know, easier for me to not

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Speaker 2: have glasses and I take them off and on. And

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Speaker 2: I know you mentioned that it can be confusing to

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Speaker 2: editors just in general, and glasses can be cumbersome, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: No, for sure, that's the whole reason I went to contacts.

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Speaker 3: I never thought I could wear contacts because I can't

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Speaker 3: stand messing with my eyes, but I kind of forced

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Speaker 3: myself and it's been a game changer, especially if I'm

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Speaker 3: doing anything on camera.

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Speaker 1: Well, I took your suggestion.

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Speaker 2: I went to the eye doctor and she said, okay,

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Speaker 2: well what prompted you? And I said, well, number one,

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Speaker 2: my co host. But really the big deal was little Bailey,

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Speaker 2: my dog, got a hold of my glasses and I

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Speaker 2: have never I know that you've investigated some gruesome.

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Speaker 1: Crime scenes, but this was awful.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't even know what she did to

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Speaker 2: these glasses, but they're unrecognizable, and so I said that

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Speaker 2: I think I'm going to go to contacts now.

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Speaker 3: Wow. So the glasses were not salvageable, I take.

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Speaker 2: It, Oh no, not at all. I mean the eye

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Speaker 2: doctor said, this is their Dune ski. You can't do

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Speaker 2: anything with these glasses.

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Speaker 1: I guess I could hold them up.

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Speaker 2: I could do like a mono lens or something, but

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Speaker 2: it's she really did a job on them. I saw

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Speaker 2: her chewing on them. Part of me, I was so

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Speaker 2: mad at myself for leaving them on the table where

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Speaker 2: she could get them, and then of course mad at her,

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Speaker 2: but she looks so happy just gnawing on them, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, well, okay.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm fortunate. You know, Cora, she knows not

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Speaker 3: to chew on anything. In essence, knows recognize she's getting permission.

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Speaker 3: That's that's something she can chew on.

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Speaker 1: Don't brag, Paul that you have a.

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Speaker 3: Trained she's she's a very good dog.

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Speaker 2: We have dogs that they are not well trained. They

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Speaker 2: are am I well trained, but Bailey really sometimes when

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Speaker 2: she sees a numb numb like my glasses, she can't

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Speaker 2: control herself. So anyway, I'm going to contact. I'm wearing

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Speaker 2: my old glasses right now, which has not been a

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Speaker 2: very pleasant experience. I'm waiting for I'm getting progressive lenses,

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Speaker 2: which the eye doctor said, you know, get ready because

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Speaker 2: they can feel a little bit different. And I have

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Speaker 2: not bad of an iphobia thing as you do. But

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty scared of doing it. So I'm gonna be

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Speaker 2: doing an hour training session here, so you'll see me

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Speaker 2: with no glasses here soon. But I'm still a little petrified.

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Speaker 2: But you know it's a necessity at this point.

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Speaker 3: Well, if I can do it, you can do it,

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Speaker 3: and I'm so proud of you for taking the leap.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I guess you can thank the little Bailey

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Speaker 1: for that one.

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Speaker 3: And it wasn't me, it was Bailey, right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, listen, this dog has more toys. It's like

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Speaker 2: having a baby, you know, where you put toys everywhere,

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Speaker 2: so wherever they can reach them. This dog has more

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Speaker 2: toys than I know what to do with. And yet

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Speaker 2: what she wants is the things that smell like us.

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Speaker 2: And so she is sure a big fan of stealing

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Speaker 2: socks and skirts and everything possible. And so the glasses

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Speaker 2: just drew the line for me. So we'll see how

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Speaker 2: that goes. All right, the next time you see me,

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Speaker 2: I hope to have contacts in but you know, we'll see.

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Speaker 3: We'll see, Okay, I'm going to hold you to that.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're gonna go to Washington, d C. Which I

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Speaker 2: don't think we've been to Washington, d C on this

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Speaker 2: show yet. But frankly, our locations start to run together

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Speaker 2: after a while. I tell my students that sometimes you

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Speaker 2: all start I just see one student when I see

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Speaker 2: all my students, after you've taught about a thousand of them,

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Speaker 2: and our locations start to meld together for me after

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Speaker 2: a while. But we're going to d C. And I

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Speaker 2: bet you've spent a pretty decent amount of time in

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Speaker 2: DC based on your job.

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Speaker 3: I've been to d C a fair amount through the

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Speaker 3: course of my career with conferences out there. In fact,

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Speaker 3: when what was it from second halfway through second grade

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Speaker 3: through fourth grade? I lived in Clinton, Maryland, about ten

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Speaker 3: miles south of d C. And my dad was stationed

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Speaker 3: downtown d C on the Mall, on a building on

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Speaker 3: the mall. So as a kid, I have fond memories

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Speaker 3: of going to the Smithsonian Institutes and stuff. And then

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Speaker 3: since I've retired, I've had to go to d C

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Speaker 3: for media things, and you know, I've been able, so

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Speaker 3: I've gotten pretty familiar with, you know, the primary components

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Speaker 3: of DC for sure.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think this is going to be a good

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Speaker 2: case for you because it's in a time period that

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Speaker 2: I think you're going to appreciate. Nineteen seventy eight, one

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Speaker 2: of our most recent cases, seventy eight.

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Speaker 3: I was living there during that time.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so nineteen seventy eight, I doubt you've heard this case,

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Speaker 2: but we'll see. So seventy eight in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 2: And it involves hair analysis and the FBI, which has

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Speaker 2: been controversial as you know. So there's all kinds of

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Speaker 2: stuff for Paul Holes. So hopefully you can give me

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Speaker 2: some insight here and hopefully I have enough information for

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Speaker 2: you to go off of to give us some good

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Speaker 2: information back.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well I'm looking forward to hearing it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the scene.

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Speaker 2: So I don't say this often, Paul, but we're just

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Speaker 2: going to jump right into this murder. No killer background

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Speaker 2: right now, no real victim background. I just want to

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Speaker 2: drop you into the scene and see what you think.

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Speaker 2: It is three am, and it's July twenty sixth, nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy eight, and there is a woman named Belva McCormick,

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Speaker 2: and she's waiting on her husband. He is a cab driver.

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Speaker 2: She is a nervous wife, as I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of people would be major city in seventy eight. What

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Speaker 2: do you remember about Washington as far as crime goes?

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Speaker 2: This is Washington, DC, proper.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, when I was living there, I really

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Speaker 3: wasn't aware of crime. You know, where I lived was Clinton, Maryland.

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Speaker 3: So of course as a kid, you know, nineteen seventy eight,

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Speaker 3: I'm ten years old, I don't remember a lot about

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Speaker 3: the crime rate. I know that there were some rougher

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Speaker 3: parts of the city than other cities, and of course

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Speaker 3: it's a huge tourist destination. Now that I'm older, I'm

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Speaker 3: more aware of the crime aspects within DC itself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't have a lot of information about

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Speaker 2: how much crime was happening in DC. I do think

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Speaker 2: that certainly cab drivers, as they would be now, have

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Speaker 2: to be cautious, especially if they're getting off work about

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Speaker 2: three am. We've done a couple of stories on cab

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Speaker 2: drivers who were targeted by would be passengers. You know,

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Speaker 2: it just seems like it can be a very vulnerable profession,

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Speaker 2: and I imagine that that's been the case. Have you

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Speaker 2: investigated some attacks on cab drivers in your past or

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Speaker 2: have you read any of those stories.

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Speaker 3: Well, most notably is the Zodiac. So you have a

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Speaker 3: cab hit his very last known crime. You know, there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of speculation that he's committed others, but the

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Speaker 3: last formal crime that the Zodiac committed was Paul Stein,

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Speaker 3: who was a cab driver, and it appeared that the

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Speaker 3: Zodiac was a passenger sitting in the backseat of the

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Speaker 3: cab and then when he was about to be dropped

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Speaker 3: off out Presidio San Francisco, reaches over and shoots the

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Speaker 3: cab driver in the head and then goes outside the vehicle,

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Speaker 3: goes into the driver's door, and then that's when he's now,

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Speaker 3: you know, shuffling through Paul Stein's bloggings and tearing a shirt,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. You know, so you can see where the

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Speaker 3: cab drivers are very vulnerable because their back is to

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Speaker 3: these passengers. They have no idea what the passengers are thinking.

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Speaker 3: And over time, of course, when you get into cabs,

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Speaker 3: you now see partitions yep, to prevent that type of

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Speaker 3: crime from occurring, or at least make it harder to

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Speaker 3: commit that kind of crime.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you what happens at three am

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy eight. For Belva McCormick is a wife's nightmare.

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Speaker 2: She hears her husband outside. His name's John, the cab driver.

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Speaker 2: He sounds like he's begging for his life outside their home.

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Speaker 2: So it sounds like he's made it all the way

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Speaker 2: home from his shift and he was just gonna walk

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Speaker 2: inside and turn in for the night. She starts rushing

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Speaker 2: to the window when she hears his voice and she

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Speaker 2: hears a gunshot, one shot. She looks out the window

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Speaker 2: and she sees a man with a stalking over his

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Speaker 2: head running away. She cannot identify him. She can't say

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Speaker 2: if this is a man who is black or white,

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Speaker 2: how Tolly is really She just knows that she notes

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Speaker 2: there's a stalking over his head. Belvi calls the police,

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Speaker 2: but the man is long gone. At this point, John,

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Speaker 2: who's sixty three, dies from a single gunshot wound.

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Speaker 1: And he was on the.

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Speaker 2: Front porch of the couple's home. And you know, I'll

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Speaker 2: tell you a little bit sort of about the investigation

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Speaker 2: and what they uncover, and of course I have information

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Speaker 2: about the gun. But you know, just at first blush here.

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Speaker 2: To me, this seemed like a robbery, which is what

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Speaker 2: it could turn out to be. But it just feels

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Speaker 2: pretty brazen to shoot someone at three in the morning

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Speaker 2: on a street, you know, right in front of their home.

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Speaker 2: And we don't know the circumstances so far.

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Speaker 3: No, but I can discern some aspects about this shooting

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Speaker 3: because she's not seeing a vehicle, you know. So on

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Speaker 3: one hand, you know, was John followed home by the

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Speaker 3: offender that would necessitate the offender to have been in

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Speaker 3: a vehicle, and it doesn't sound like the vehicle was

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Speaker 3: in sight when Belva is looking out the window and

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Speaker 3: she doesn't hear a vehicle drive off. So I start

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Speaker 3: thinking about is this a lie in wait scenario where

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Speaker 3: the offender knows John's schedule and is laying in weight,

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Speaker 3: has the gun, has the mask, and when John pulls

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Speaker 3: up at three am, the offender pounces that is significant.

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Speaker 3: Now It's okay, what is John's routine with the money

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Speaker 3: that he collects? Because this is nineteen seventy eight, so

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Speaker 3: I'm imagining there's a fair amount of cash transactions versus

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Speaker 3: like today it's all credit card stuff. Does John come

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Speaker 3: home with any cash? Is that missing at this point

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Speaker 3: to suggest you have the primary motive is robbery or

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Speaker 3: is there something else going on? Is John being executed

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Speaker 3: due to the offender having some personal vendetta against him?

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Speaker 3: So as I hear more information, I'll start trying to

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Speaker 3: kind of refine my theories on this case.

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Speaker 2: So my note so far, don't say anything about money

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Speaker 2: being taken. It doesn't mean you know that was not

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Speaker 2: the intention, right, It just means that something happened and

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Speaker 2: the robber, if he is a robber, wasn't able to

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Speaker 2: get to the money in time. And we've got John

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Speaker 2: screaming on a street, crying and begging for his life.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you know, he shot him out of panic and

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Speaker 2: then took off before he was able to get to

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Speaker 2: the money.

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Speaker 1: I guess that's possible.

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Speaker 3: I would say that's one possibility. You could also have

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Speaker 3: an offender who happens to see, you know, this cab

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Speaker 3: driver coming home every night. Maybe the offender lives in

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Speaker 3: the neighborhood and going well, maybe John's got a bunch

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Speaker 3: of money on him, not knowing for sure, but decides

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Speaker 3: to go ahead and attempt a robbery, and who knows,

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Speaker 3: you know, at this point, we just don't if any

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Speaker 3: money was taken.

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Speaker 2: Well, the police are alarmed, of course, just because this

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Speaker 2: is a man, a white man. Will clarify John, who

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Speaker 2: is now dead three in the morning. They are now

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Speaker 2: making a connection to something that I think will indicate

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Speaker 2: to us that this was meant to be a robbery.

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Speaker 2: He is not the first middle aged man to be

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Speaker 2: gunned down in this area at this time. About two

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Speaker 2: weeks earlier, July thirteenth, there's a different man named William

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Speaker 2: Horn fifty two years old. He worked at a local

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Speaker 2: florist's shop and he was robbed and shot to death

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Speaker 2: in the same neighborhood. So he had been walking from

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Speaker 2: his parking spot going towards his apartment building after he

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Speaker 2: was out for the night and he was shot at

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Speaker 2: two thirty in the morning and his money was taken

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Speaker 2: whatever he had on him. So, you know, they had

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Speaker 2: not solved that case. But the police are saying same neighborhood,

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Speaker 2: same type of person, same kind of time, in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the night robbery, but no witnesses in that case.

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Speaker 2: So does it seem fair for the police to say

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Speaker 2: these are probably connected when they're two weeks apart, same neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think they have to at least acknowledge that possibility.

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Speaker 3: But you know, this type of crime depending on the

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Speaker 3: type of neighborhood, whatever city you're in. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: something that is frequently committed by offenders and they're unrelated

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Speaker 3: to each other. The crimes are unrelated, so you have

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Speaker 3: to consider both possibilities at this point unless they have

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Speaker 3: something that really stands out that is unique enough to

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Speaker 3: say yes, it's the same offender. Committing these two crimes.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk a little bit more about evidence that

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Speaker 2: they have that connects them. And I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you're going to think this is enough or not, but

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Speaker 2: they have done an autopsy on both William Horn, who

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Speaker 2: is the man who was murdered two weeks earlier, and

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Speaker 2: John McCormick, and they were both shot one time with

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Speaker 2: a thirty two caliber revolver. And I think you're probably

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Speaker 2: going to say, this is a very common gun, is

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Speaker 2: that right?

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Speaker 1: I actually no, Oh, okay.

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Speaker 3: That is an uncommon caliber to be used in crimes,

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Speaker 3: at least during my era, which is, you know, from

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Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties on.

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Speaker 1: So this is what they say.

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Speaker 2: The medical examiners retrieve the slugs from both of the

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Speaker 2: victim's bodies, so based on the slugs, they determined the

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Speaker 2: weapon was a thirty two caliber revolver for both. We

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Speaker 2: have firearms examiners doing analysis and they become convinced that

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Speaker 2: the murder weapon was used to kill both men. So

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Speaker 2: my question is, how would they have done that in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight versus how would they have done that?

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Speaker 2: Now we've talked about Oscar Heinrich in the twenties shooting

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Speaker 2: into paraffin wax. Would this have been a time when

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Speaker 2: they would use water in the nineteen seventies and shoot

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Speaker 2: into water or what would they.

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Speaker 3: Do at this point in time. They have the bullets

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Speaker 3: recovered from both cases, they don't have the gun itself,

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Speaker 3: and so to do test firing of the gun that

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Speaker 3: is where you shoot into the water in order to

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Speaker 3: preserve the bullets that you can compare to the evidence. Here.

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Speaker 3: What they're doing is they're taking a look at these

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Speaker 3: two bullets from two different crimes, and they put them

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Speaker 3: on a comparison microscope and they're looking at, well, are

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Speaker 3: the class characteristics the same? The caliber, the type of

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Speaker 3: ammal sometimes is significant, but most importantly, what are the

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Speaker 3: lands and grooves of the inside of the barrel of

300
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Speaker 3: the revolver? And if the lands and grooves are the

301
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Speaker 3: same in terms of the measurements, the number of lands

302
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Speaker 3: and grooves, class characteristics are matching. Now they start taking

303
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Speaker 3: a look at the individual ing straya. It's almost like

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Speaker 3: a barcode that the firearms examiners can overlay in this

305
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Speaker 3: comparison microscope. And if the straya is significantly the same

306
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Speaker 3: between these two bullets, then they can form an opinion

307
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Speaker 3: that these two bullets from two different crimes were fired

308
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Speaker 3: by the same gun. That's no different than what firearms

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Speaker 3: examiners are doing today. We have more sophisticated types of

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Speaker 3: microscopes in order to document what is being seen. There's

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Speaker 3: also more objective criteria that has as a result of

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Speaker 3: as we've talked about before, the NES studies and everything else,

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Speaker 3: in terms of what they now call consecutive matching straya

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Speaker 3: and have some mass to support their opinions. But in

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eight, provided you have a competent firearms examiner,

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Speaker 3: if that examiner has formed the opinion that these two

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Speaker 3: bullets are fired from the same gun, then I would

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Speaker 3: say that's likely the case. And now the question is

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Speaker 3: is it the same offender or is the gun being

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Speaker 3: passed around.

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Speaker 2: We have one more piece of evidence. It's really interesting

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Speaker 2: and becomes i think the main focus of this case.

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Speaker 2: There's a police dog that has located a stocking that

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Speaker 2: John McCormick's wife, Belva says is the stocking from what

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Speaker 2: she could see, and it is about a block away,

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Speaker 2: and so police are saying this must be the stocking.

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Speaker 2: The guy must have stripped it off his face as

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Speaker 2: he was running away, and it appears to have strands

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Speaker 2: of hair stuck on it. So they are collecting it

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Speaker 2: as evidence and they sent it to the FBI. This

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Speaker 2: is how the FBI got involved with this case. So

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Speaker 2: if you're a defense attorney and we catch someone, can

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Speaker 2: they say you can't.

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Speaker 1: Prove this is his stalking. What would they be able

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Speaker 1: to do in seventy eight with this hair? Essentially, well, they.

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Speaker 3: Would be doing a hair examination with the recovered hairs

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00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,080
Speaker 3: out of the stocking, and they have a suspect, then

338
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Speaker 3: they would collect hair reference standards head hair reference standards,

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Speaker 3: which are pulled hairs from the various areas of the scalp.

340
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Speaker 3: A hair examiner would examine the hairs, and again, it's

341
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Speaker 3: any time you're dealing with comparative evidence, it's taking a

342
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Speaker 3: look at the class characteristics. Can you eliminate the evidence

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Speaker 3: from the suspects reference standard? You know, let's say you

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Speaker 3: have blonde evidence hairs and you have very very dark

345
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,159
Speaker 3: reference standard hairs, then you have an elimination if you

346
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,400
Speaker 3: can eliminate from a class characteristic standpoint. Now you're taking

347
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Speaker 3: a look at the finer details within the hair. Back

348
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Speaker 3: in the day, the types of training that the FBI

349
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,399
Speaker 3: was given to hair examiners across the country. If there

350
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,640
Speaker 3: were certain features that matched up, then hair examiners would

351
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 3: form an opinion that the evidence hair likely came from

352
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,360
Speaker 3: the suspect whose reference standard they were looking at. And

353
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Speaker 3: we know today that there is some problems with that science.

354
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Speaker 2: And this case is one of those examples, one of

355
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Speaker 2: the first examples that was the catalyst of people looking

356
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Speaker 2: at the FBI and saying there's some real problems with

357
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Speaker 2: the procedure used for examining hair. This is a big

358
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Speaker 2: case for them. So let's get back into nineteen seventy eight.

359
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Speaker 2: We are now going to talk about informants. And I

360
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Speaker 2: have said snitches, and I know that we're not snitch

361
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Speaker 2: by snitchbases is what I say. But we're going to

362
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Speaker 2: say informants here, or what I think is even more creative.

363
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Speaker 2: This woman is described as a quote friend of the police.

364
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Speaker 1: I don't know that. Is that a phrase? Is that

365
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Speaker 1: a real thing?

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Speaker 3: I've never heard that particular phrase. What it comes to

367
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Speaker 3: talking about somebody who's an informant.

368
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Speaker 2: Well, Bobby Jean Phillips is a friend of the police.

369
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Speaker 2: She's a local woman, and she goes to the police

370
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 2: a few days after the last murder, which would have

371
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Speaker 2: been John McCormick, and she says that she believes she

372
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Speaker 2: can connect two people that she knows to the murders

373
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Speaker 2: of both these men. So now we're talking about two

374
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Speaker 2: young black men. The victims are both white. The first

375
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Speaker 2: man is a seventeen year old named Sante Trible, and

376
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Speaker 2: the other is a twenty year old man named Cleveland Wright.

377
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Speaker 2: And Bobby says, listen, this is what I know. I

378
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Speaker 2: know that these two guys had sold her, Bobby's roommate,

379
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Speaker 2: a thirty two caliber handgun for sixty bucks, and the

380
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,680
Speaker 2: gun had belonged to Cleveland, and Sante had helped facilitate

381
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,360
Speaker 2: the sale. And you know, when they talked to these

382
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Speaker 2: two guys, they both said, yeah, that's exactly what happened.

383
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Speaker 2: We sold a gun for sixty dollars that happened to

384
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Speaker 2: be a thirty two caliber gun to Bobby Jean Phillips's roommate.

385
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,399
Speaker 2: And I think one of the issues that police started

386
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:13,159
Speaker 2: looking at was the proximity of things. And they found

387
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,680
Speaker 2: out that Sante's mother, whom he lived with, was within

388
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,920
Speaker 2: blocks of these murder scenes. So they're saying, these two

389
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 2: young men who sold a thirty two caliber gun shortly

390
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,920
Speaker 2: before these murders, they say had this gun, and one

391
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 2: of them lives very close to the murder scenes. They

392
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,480
Speaker 2: start looking closely at these guys.

393
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Speaker 3: Well, you know this mother's house. You know, this is

394
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 3: what is called an anchor point from a geographic profile standpoint.

395
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,360
Speaker 3: So Sante definitely has a connection to the neighborhood where

396
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,119
Speaker 3: these two homicides have occurred. And at least based on

397
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 3: the circumstances, as you've told them, it sounds like the

398
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 3: offender is on foot. Now there may be a vehicle

399
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,200
Speaker 3: parked block several blocks away, but right now the idea

400
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 3: that somebody like Sante could commit these crimes and then

401
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 3: rapidly get to a safe house mother's house within that

402
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,160
Speaker 3: very neighborhood, sure that makes sense. But there's many other

403
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 3: people who have the same types of circumstances. So this

404
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 3: is just one circumstance that would you know, cause the

405
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 3: investigators go, okay, you know, that's a box checked, but

406
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 3: you need so much more. You know. My question is, okay,

407
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 3: does Bobby turn over this thirty two caliber revolver, and

408
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 3: is it compared to the evidence bullets.

409
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 2: Nope, Bobby Jean hands over shell casing from the revolver.

410
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 2: But she says, this is a great nineteen seventies quote.

411
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,400
Speaker 2: She says that the gun quote got legs and vanished.

412
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Speaker 2: I'm going to use that quote somewhere someday, somewhere got

413
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:46,880
Speaker 2: legs and vanished.

414
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 1: I love that phrase. So the gun is gone. She

415
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 1: hands over a shell.

416
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 2: Let's put aside the fact that Bobby jan now seems

417
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 2: like maybe not a reliable person. Is this shell from

418
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 2: this gun going to be at all helpful if you've

419
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 2: got one slug each from the two victims?

420
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 3: You know, based on the circumstances, the revolver is used

421
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 3: in both homicides. And you haven't mentioned that expended cartridge cases.

422
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 3: You know, we always you know, vernacular sort of hiss shells,

423
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 3: but we always say, you know, within the firearms realm,

424
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 3: this is a cartridge case. It's expended. The revolvers hold

425
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 3: on to those cartridge cases, unlike semi automatic pistols that

426
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 3: eject the cartridge cases at the shooting scene. So unless

427
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 3: something happens where the offender either purposefully or accidentally dumps

428
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 3: the expended cartridge cases out of the revolver. They don't

429
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 3: have any evidence to directly compare the cartridge case that

430
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 3: Bobby hands over to any evidence from the scene. The

431
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 3: one thing they possibly could do is if there was

432
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 3: enough information from the bullets recovered. Are these bullets consistent

433
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 3: with having come out of this type of cartridge case?

434
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 3: Is it the same ammunition? You can tell that, sometimes

435
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 3: you can't. It's almost as important that Bobby is saying, hey,

436
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 3: thirty two caliber revolver was sold, and unless that was

437
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 3: you know, published, you know in the press, and everybody

438
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 3: knows that a thirty two caliber revolver was used, that

439
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 3: would be what I would consider to be holdback information.

440
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 3: You don't announce that to the public for this very reason.

441
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 3: That at least lends some greater weight that maybe this

442
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 3: is the murder weapon. But you can't conclude that at

443
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 3: this point in time. If I'm working on this case,

444
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 3: I would be asking was this gun test fired anywhere?

445
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 3: Like the brothers are trying to figure out does the

446
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 3: gun work? Are they shooting into a tree stump somewhere?

447
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 3: If that's the case, and I'd be digging those bullets

448
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 3: out of that tree stump, but having those compared to

449
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 3: the evidence from the homicides to see if the firearms

450
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 3: examiners can affect a match or not.

451
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is probably going to sound either silly

452
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 2: naive coming from my part here, but can you not

453
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 2: take any bullet that would fit into this thirty two

454
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: caliber gun, fire it and see if the striation's markings

455
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 2: are the same coming out of the barrel of that

456
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 2: gun on the test bullet, any random bullet versus the

457
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 2: two slugs that they found that wouldn't work.

458
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 3: Well, if you had the guns, that's exactly what you

459
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 3: would be doing, is you'd be test firing the gun,

460
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 3: right and then recovering those bullets, And you always want

461
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 3: to use this same AMMO that was used in the murder,

462
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 3: so you don't have any variables introduced in this case.

463
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 3: They don't have the gun, so they can't do a

464
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 3: test fire, you know, And that's where you have to go.

465
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 3: If you know for sure that the gun has been

466
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 3: fired at a certain location and it's you know, it's

467
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 3: not like at a shooting range where there's going to

468
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 3: be tens of thousands of expended bullets. If you have

469
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 3: a very discrete location where this purported thirty two caliber

470
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 3: revolver that the brothers purchased that Bobby's talking about. That's

471
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 3: where you can go and dig those bullets or recover

472
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 3: those bullets and do a comparison, and if it matches,

473
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 3: then yet you're onto something for sure that gives great

474
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 3: weight to what Bobby is saying happened, that this is

475
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 3: the murder weapon. I'm assuming they didn't do anything like that.

476
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: No, and investigator said there was no way to tie

477
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 2: any slug or shell casing to a specific gun let alone,

478
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 2: this revolver that this man had essentially given to Bobby

479
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 2: Jean's roommate. The best they could do was connect it

480
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 2: to this shell I suppose to any thirty two caliber

481
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 2: revolver made by multiple gun manufacturers. And according to the

482
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 2: trial transcripts, this shell belonged to maybe a gun made

483
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 2: by half of all of the revolvers that were produced.

484
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 2: So they couldn't even narrow it down to one manufacturer,

485
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: is what they say.

486
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and that's that's unfortunate, and that happens frequently.

487
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 3: Where you take the class characteristics, the general rifle characteristics

488
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 3: off of the bullet, the various marks that the gun

489
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 3: itself leaves on the cartridge case, and then you can

490
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 3: utilize those class characteristics and hope to get a very

491
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 3: narrow list of making model a gun, you know, and

492
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 3: if it's a narrow enough list, then you can do

493
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 3: such things as give me all the registered owners of

494
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 3: this type of gun that live in this area. Oh

495
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 3: and one of these guns was stolen before the first homicide.

496
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 3: You know, that's a clue, and then you start marching

497
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: down that. But in this circumstance, the class characteristics off

498
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 3: the bullet and this cartridge case is giving too broad

499
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 3: of a range of making models, and so they're really

500
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 3: at an investigative dead end along the firearms evidence. At

501
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 3: this point in time.

502
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: I think Bobby Jean senses that the police would like

503
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 2: more information. So she says that on two different occasions

504
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: in July of nineteen seventy eight, so you know, within

505
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 2: weeks of the first and the murder, she says that

506
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 2: Sante came to her and said that he had seen

507
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: Cleveland kill another man with a gun. And this was

508
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 2: something that I guess was surprising to her, but she

509
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: was hanging on to that information. So as a quote

510
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 2: unquote friend of the police. She is saying to them, Listen,

511
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: Sante was not involved in any of these shootings, I believe,

512
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 2: but Cleveland is the bad guy here. She is certainly

513
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: tying Sante to Cleveland and then claiming that Cleveland killed

514
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 2: a guy with a firearm who was probably not the

515
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: two men who were talking about right now. I don't

516
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 2: know how reliable Bobby Gene is at this point, and

517
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 2: they're denying it.

518
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 3: Of course, sure, but now you have two suspects that

519
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 3: Bobby is given you, and it's a matter of trying

520
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 3: to work out was either Sante and or Cleveland are

521
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 3: both involved in either one of these homicides. In this

522
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 3: day and age, you know, there's some aspects about this evidence.

523
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 3: Of course, we have the missing murder weapons, so we

524
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 3: have firearms evidence that's a little bit vague in terms

525
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 3: of tying anything to Sante in Cleveland, outside is that

526
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 3: it appears that they purchased a thirty two caliber revolver.

527
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 3: Then you have this stocking cap, and you know, in

528
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 3: this day and age, that's a great source of DNA,

529
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 3: you know, but back in nineteen seventy eight, you know

530
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 3: what they're really going to be going after is that

531
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 3: hair evidence. The problem with the stocking cap is is

532
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 3: can you conclusively tie it to being on the shooter

533
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 3: at the time of the homicide of John You know,

534
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 3: because it is a block away. We know offenders after

535
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 3: they commit robberies frequently toss away items clothing, stocking caps,

536
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 3: et cetera. On their escape path, So that makes sense.

537
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 3: But it's still removed from the actual crime scene. So

538
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: you have to build in at least some level of skepticism.

539
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 3: You know, it could be from the offender, but it

540
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 3: may not be, but you have to sue that is

541
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 3: evidence for sure.

542
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: Well, we have another tipster who comes forward who I'm

543
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: not quite sure about. He's seventeen local kid. His name

544
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: is Ronald Willis. He was friends with both Sante and Cleveland.

545
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: He tells the police that he knows Cleveland was involved

546
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: in the first man's death, William Horn's death, but just

547
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: like Bobby Jean, he says Sante had nothing to do

548
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: with it. He said, I don't know anything about the

549
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: second guy, the cab driver, but I know Sante is

550
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 2: innocent in all of this. Cleveland is the one who

551
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: is guilty. And so now we've got this second informant.

552
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 2: His information right now.

553
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: Is pretty vague.

554
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,959
Speaker 2: It's enough for police to say, we need to search

555
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,479
Speaker 2: their houses. So they look at Cleveland's house, they look

556
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: at Sante's mother's house, and they find thirty two caliber

557
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: bullets in a closet in Sante's mother's house. They cannot

558
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: link these bullets found in the closet to the shell

559
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 2: casing that Bobby gave them or to the slugs that

560
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: were found in William Horn or John McCormick's bodies. Does

561
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 2: that seem right to you? Would we be able to

562
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: do that now link any of these.

563
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 3: Well, first, maybe to clarify they you said they found

564
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 3: some bullets. It sounds like you mean that they found

565
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 3: live AMMO live rounds. Yes, unfired. Okay, So now what

566
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 3: they are trying to do is they're trying to say,

567
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 3: you know, the evidence bullets and this evidence cartridge case,

568
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 3: does this match the AMAL that's found in there? And

569
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 3: it doesn't, right, So does it mean you know that

570
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 3: you can't eliminate these suspects as a result, But you

571
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 3: don't have anything to be able to at this point say, oh,

572
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 3: there's some physical evidence that's overlapping with the actual evidence.

573
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 3: From the crime, so that still is too nebulous. One

574
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: of the things I'm wondering is I want to know

575
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: the veracity of the information that Ronald has. Does he

576
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: know Bobby. Is he getting this information because of rumors

577
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 3: on this street or does he have any first hand information?

578
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,719
Speaker 3: And that's why he's coming forward. If he's just listening

579
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 3: to what you know the other kids on the street

580
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 3: are saying, then it's not good info because everybody is

581
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 3: like passing bad info. If and saying, well heard Cleveland's involved,

582
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 3: So now that becomes the rumor mill out there on

583
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: the street.

584
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: And what I since so far is that both Ronald

585
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 2: and Bobby are saying that they have heard different confessions.

586
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: Bobby Jean says that Sante had said Cleveland killed this guy.

587
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: He didn't say whether it was William Horn the first

588
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: man or what, but she says Sante says Cleveland killed

589
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: this guy. Ronald says Cleveland confessed to him to killing

590
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: William Horn. Okay, later on he'll say he believes Sante

591
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: was the lookout in these murders. But the stories are

592
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: going to keep changing based on whether they're in court

593
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: or talking to the police. Both of these people who

594
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: are informants. And so that's one of the issues that

595
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 2: is I think a big problem here. And also Ronald

596
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: has a big dog in the fight here because he's

597
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: facing murder charges for robbery and violating probation and he

598
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: wants a lighter sentence. Sure, Bobby Gene doesn't seem to

599
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 2: have any problems legal problems in that way, but maybe

600
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: she wanted some kind of preferential treatment from the police

601
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: if she did get into trouble. It sounds like she's

602
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: running around with some people who own guns at a

603
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: minimum and might be getting into trouble. So already that

604
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: kind of casts doubt on what they're saying. There's no

605
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: hard evidence except for them saying we have heard this

606
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 2: a couple of times directly from people involved.

607
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 3: Sure, and now this is where you know, of course

608
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 3: the investigators are dealing. They've got two It sounds like

609
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 3: independent witnesses coming forward that are focusing attention onto Sante

610
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 3: in Cleveland as being involved in one or both of

611
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 3: the homicides. Now it's well, okay, how do we substantiate that?

612
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 3: And this is where I believe with the information they've got,

613
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 3: they can get a warrant in order to search Sante

614
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 3: and Cleveland's residences, which would include Sante's mother's residence, and

615
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 3: maybe he has other places he stays as well as Cleveland.

616
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 3: And this is where it comes down to, Okay, what

617
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 3: would be the types of evidence that these offenders could

618
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 3: be taken away from the crime scene. What was the

619
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 3: distance of the shooting? You know, if this is a

620
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 3: close shooting where now you have close range shot to

621
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 3: each victim's head, the offender possibly could have the victim's

622
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,719
Speaker 3: blood or brain matter back spatter onto their hand, onto

623
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 3: long sleeves. They could have shattered hair that could come

624
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 3: back onto their clothing. They have at least one witness

625
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 3: belv you know, who sees the offender and how the

626
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 3: offenders dressed. So now it's looking for those articles of clothing.

627
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 3: And then of course, is there anything that maybe some

628
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 3: property that was stolen from one or both victims that

629
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 3: you can tie back to the victims that are present

630
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 3: within Sante or Cleveland's area of control. So that's where

631
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 3: now it's okay, they have to figure this out. You know,

632
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 3: they have suspects, they have to now get more to

633
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 3: be confident they have the right suspects.

634
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 2: They have very little more with the cases of both

635
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: of these men. So no clothing found discovered with any

636
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: blood on it. They have the stalking and the hair

637
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: samples have been sent off to the AFBI. They're waiting

638
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: to get the results. There is no property. If there

639
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 2: were cash, you know somebody had killed William Horn, that

640
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 2: cash is probably long gone. But no watches or anything found.

641
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 2: And Sante says, I am innocent of this. He said

642
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 2: I was at home. I can prove it because my brother,

643
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: my girlfriend, and someone else. We're all at my mom's

644
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 2: house and we were there all night long. And eventually

645
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 2: a defense attorney will say this kid didn't do anything.

646
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 2: He has no criminal history except for two ten dollars

647
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: fines for playing dice in public. He'll take a lie

648
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 2: detector test if you want him to. But how much

649
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: does that inform you both the alibi and the fact

650
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: that this is not a drug dealer, at least one

651
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: that hasn't been caught. This is not somebody who's out

652
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 2: there roaming the streets. He doesn't have that kind of

653
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: history and he's seventeen. So what is the alibi plus

654
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 2: his criminal history, such as it is tell you about

655
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: this crime? Is this somebody who could be lined up

656
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 2: to do this kind of crime.

657
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 3: You know, first let's talk about his alibi right now.

658
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 3: His alibi at least with the people that you identified

659
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 3: are family members, and we know family members are going

660
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 3: to protect their loved ones. You said someone else, and

661
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 3: so I was like, well, who is that someone else?

662
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: Is this somebody that would protect Sante? Or is this

663
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 3: somebody that would be putting themselves in jeopardy if they

664
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 3: were to lie to protect Sante? And then as far

665
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 3: as Sante's criminal history and age, I will tell you.

666
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 3: You know, when we start talking about the shootings that

667
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 3: I was going out to in the nineties and they're

668
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 3: typically gang related, we're talking fourteen year olds, fifteen year olds,

669
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 3: seventeen year olds that are frequently the shooters in those

670
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 3: types of cases. I imagine it's probably very similar back in

671
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eight in d C. So that doesn't weigh

672
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 3: in factor in at all. His age doesn't, and his

673
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 3: criminal history, you know, law enforcement would probably if he

674
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 3: was an active criminal in a high crime area, probably

675
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 3: is very well aware of who Sante is and what

676
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 3: he's capable of. But if he looks like he's not

677
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 3: somebody then that's that's definitely a factor, but it doesn't

678
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 3: eliminate him, you know, you just go, okay, So this

679
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 3: is where you have to start digging into, you know,

680
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 3: corroborating or refuting Sante's statements. I think you mentioned Cleveland

681
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 3: was was uncooperative or they both were uncooperative at one point?

682
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 3: Are they given statements? Is there any way you can

683
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 3: play one against the other?

684
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: You know?

685
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 3: So it all just depends on the state of the

686
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 3: investigation and the knowledge of the facts at the time

687
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,959
Speaker 3: on how to proceed to try to tease us out.

688
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think Cleveland and Sante their only helpfulness

689
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 2: was saying, we don't know anything about this. The only

690
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 2: thing we did was sell this guy a gun. I

691
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 2: don't know what happened to the gun after that. Of course,

692
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: the police can't even prove that that gun was connected

693
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: to these murders in any way. So I think I

694
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 2: just might have answered my own question. Do you think

695
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 2: that the DA has enough to go ahead and issue

696
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: murder indictments as of now with what you have heard

697
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 2: and let's assume no follow up on doing what you're

698
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 2: saying here, just based on everything that you know, what

699
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 2: do you think no.

700
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 3: As of right now? This is this is where there's

701
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 3: what I would say, there's churn. So there's something going

702
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 3: on here. But is it because they were involved with

703
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 3: the case, or do you have a set of coincidences?

704
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 3: And I know, you know, there's some investigators out there

705
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,919
Speaker 3: that will make the statement I don't believe in coincidences. Well,

706
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 3: no coincidences do occur, you know, And that's part of

707
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 3: the scary aspects when you build a circumstantial case is

708
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 3: we as humans just don't have the capacity to truly understand,

709
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 3: you know, and compute is this really a coincidence versus

710
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 3: is there actual circumstantial evidence that has weight that will incriminate,

711
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 3: you know, the the suspect. So at this point I

712
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 3: would say Sante and more notably Cleveland appear to be

713
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 3: at least suspects. But the way that investigations proceed, especially

714
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 3: in these who Done It type homicides, is oftentimes you

715
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 3: generate multiple suspects and it turns out they had nothing

716
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 3: to do with the crime. They just had something that

717
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,919
Speaker 3: caused them to be suspicious, and you're looking to try

718
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 3: to identify the actual offender, you know, and you do

719
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 3: that by investigating these various suspects until you get to

720
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 3: a point to where you can build up sufficient probable

721
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 3: cause where you're confident that you can now make an

722
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 3: arrest and present that to the DA's office. And at

723
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 3: this point, I don't think they have PC the stocking cap.

724
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 3: You can't even associate with the crime. It may be related,

725
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 3: but it may not be related. They don't have the

726
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 3: murder weapon, They don't have anything physical evidence wise to

727
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 3: connect either Sante or Cleveland to the crime. They have

728
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: a couple of witnesses that have come forward, So now

729
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 3: it sounds like, Okay, we got hair evidence that goes

730
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 3: to the FBI. So I'm assuming you're going to, you know,

731
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 3: drop the bomb on me about what the FBI is

732
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 3: going to conclude about the hair evidence.

733
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: Yes, sir, that's what's happening.

734
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 3: I'm getting to know you a little bit. How's that.

735
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: Let me just tell you the DA says, Paul Holes,

736
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 2: go kick rocks because this is everything you said is wrong.

737
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 2: And they went forward and these two men were charged

738
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,760
Speaker 2: in the murders of both John McCormick and William Horn.

739
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 2: But I will tell you these cases split up and

740
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 2: one will be kind of pointed towards William Horn and

741
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 2: the other one towards John McCormick. And the hair plays

742
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: a big part in that. Okay, Now let me ask you.

743
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 2: Cleveland goes first. Okay, so his trial starts first. Does

744
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: it matter or why does it matter rather which one

745
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 2: of these guys goes on trial first. When we're talking

746
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 2: about multiple people involved in a case. Is it because

747
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 2: things will come to light in the first case that

748
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 2: can be used in the second case.

749
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 3: Absolutely, you know, this is where of course Sante's attorneys

750
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 3: are going to be paying great attention, you know, to

751
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 3: the witness statements, whether the defendant testifies, the types of

752
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 3: evidence that law enformsmen is presenting, or the people is

753
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 3: presenting against Cleveland during that trial. And this is where

754
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,479
Speaker 3: you oftentimes will start to see defense strategies develop as

755
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 3: they learn more and more about how the prosecution strategy

756
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 3: is being employed against the first defendant. This is where

757
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 3: maybe statements do change, maybe new witnesses are found that contradict,

758
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 3: you know, statements that were previously made by others. So

759
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 3: it is you know, sometimes you'll see that this could

760
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 3: create for the defense when they have two defendants and

761
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 3: the trials are separate. Now there's a race as to

762
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 3: which one is going to get to trial first if

763
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 3: they think that's going to benefit their defendant.

764
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 2: So we have Cleveland going on trial first, and Ronald Willis,

765
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 2: who's the seventeen year old witness, sits on the witness stand.

766
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 2: This is part of his plea deal. He gets a

767
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 2: lighter sentence for robbery and for violating probation if he

768
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 2: testifies in both of these trials. So he's at Cleveland's

769
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,879
Speaker 2: trial first, and he says, Cleveland told me that he

770
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 2: killed the first guy, William Horn. And that is basically

771
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 2: all the evidence against Cleveland regarding William Horn, except for

772
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: the thirty two caliber bullet, which cannot be matched to

773
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 2: any gun because the gun has got legs and walked away,

774
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 2: as Bobby Jean said. So he is on trial and

775
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 2: seems clear that there is no evidence with Cleveland directly

776
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 2: tying him to John McCormick, the second man, the cab driver.

777
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 2: But you do have Ronald Willis said, Cleveland confessed to

778
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: me that he shot the first guy, William Horn. So

779
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: what do you think about that, because I will tell you, Paul,

780
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: that is really the only evidence they have.

781
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 3: Well, but This is where it's also evaluating Ronald and

782
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 3: his agenda our das that will utilize this type of

783
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 3: witness that has this sketchy background. But I've also seen

784
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 3: DA's go Noah in hell, am I putting that person

785
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 3: on the stand, even if it's really helping my case,

786
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 3: because that ends up being something that could undermine the

787
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 3: people's case when the jurors go, hold on, is this

788
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 3: the best that the people can put on against the defendant?

789
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 3: Is some guy that is trying to get off of

790
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 3: a stiffer sentence, you know, So it would be something

791
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 3: that if they had other witnesses and physical evidence and

792
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 3: everything else. And yeah, he's he's sort of like the

793
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 3: cherry on top of the case. Throw him up there.

794
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,720
Speaker 3: But if he is the source of the main evidence

795
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 3: that is being used against Cleveland, I've got my doubts.

796
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 3: You know. It's like, is he telling the truth or not?

797
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: Well, the prosecutor finally gets to the hair samples and

798
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 2: he's using it in Cleveland's trial. And remember we've got

799
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 2: Bobby Gen and we've got Ronald, who are the sketchy informants,

800
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 2: And they both say we don't believe Sante was involved directly,

801
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 2: we think he was involved, but we think Cleveland's the

802
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: one who's done the shooting in both of these cases.

803
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: So Cleveland's on trial for both of these cases. So

804
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 2: we have an FBI expert who sits on the stand

805
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 2: in Cleveland's trial, and he says that he has samples

806
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 2: of Cleveland's hair, he has samples of Sante's hair, and

807
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: that the hair in the stocking found a block away

808
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 2: from the cab driver's murder matched Sante's hair. And here's

809
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 2: the quote, Paul, in all microscopic characteristics, So tell me

810
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: about that and how reliable that is in nineteen seventy

811
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 2: eight when this is all happening.

812
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 3: Hair examination, As I mentioned before, you know this is

813
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 3: done underneath the microscope, and in essence, you have the

814
00:44:55,719 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 3: light underneath the scope that is allowing the hair examiner. Yeah, basically,

815
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 3: it's sort of like the light will pass through the

816
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 3: shaft of the hair and under the microscope. This is

817
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 3: where now you can see the distribution of these various

818
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 3: characteristics and a hair that are you can't see with

819
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 3: the naked eye, ovoid bodies, the distribution of melon and

820
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 3: certain other features that are within that hair. And so

821
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 3: it was thought that all this combination of these various

822
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 3: microscopic features, if taken altogether, a hair examiner would be

823
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 3: able to form an opinion. Well, first, it's you always

824
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 3: try to eliminate. Well, I can't eliminate the reference hair

825
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 3: standard from in this case, Sante can't be eliminated from

826
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 3: the evidence hair from the stocking cap based on the

827
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 3: microscopic characteristics. Some hair examiners would even take it even

828
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 3: further and say, this evidence hair came from Sante. And

829
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 3: we now know because as DNA technology progressed and it

830
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 3: got sensitive enough to do DNA testing off of hairs,

831
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 3: that these hair examiners were often wrong, you know. So

832
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 3: this is where I start speaking what this expert testified

833
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 3: to I will say, because of my knowledge today, I

834
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 3: put zero weight on that, you know, And this is

835
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 3: where Okay, now you go after DNA, but you're dealing

836
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 3: with trace evidence, you're dealing with hair, You're dealing with

837
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 3: a stocking cap. I know that oftentimes these stocking caps

838
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 3: or baseball caps or whatever are often shared between people.

839
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 3: So let's say DNA comes back and shows that the

840
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 3: stocking cap has Sante's hair in it or his saliva

841
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 3: around the mouth hole or DNA around where the nose

842
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 3: would have been or where DNA. Well, okay, that's really

843
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 3: good evidence, but does that mean he's the shooter? Could

844
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 3: you have somebody else wear that cap and yet not

845
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 3: leave their traces because they wore the cap once versus Sante?

846
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 3: This was the cap that he's worn many times. You

847
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 3: know it gets cold in DC. Maybe it's his winter

848
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 3: stocking cap. And then somebody uses that cap to disguise

849
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 3: themselves to commit the shooting. But Sante is going to

850
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 3: be the predominant donor of the hair and the DNA

851
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 3: in that stocking cap. And this is where I get to, Well,

852
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 3: the stocking cap is found a block away. Yep, you

853
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 3: can't tie it to the actual core crime scene. It's

854
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 3: something to pay attention to, but to rely solely on

855
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 3: it in order to incriminate a defendant, it's not enough

856
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 3: in my mind.

857
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: Well, the DA thought it was more than enough because

858
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: he had this FBI expert sitting on the stand saying

859
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: this cap was what Sante wore. And that means because

860
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 2: we have Velvin McCormick pointing at the stocking cap and

861
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 2: saying that was it, and it was found a block away.

862
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: It's one big connection for the DA.

863
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: The issue is is that that does not connect even

864
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy eight, that does not connect Cleveland to

865
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 2: John McCormick's murder. You've got Ronald and you've got Bobby

866
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 2: Jean saying, now, both of these guys are mixed up

867
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: in both of these murders. But when it goes to

868
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:17,720
Speaker 2: the jury, they convict Cleveland not on John McCormick because

869
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: it's not his stocking cap and there's only one guy

870
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 2: that Belva witnesses doing this, but he is convicted on

871
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 2: the first man's murder, William Horn, and it's totally based

872
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,760
Speaker 2: on those two people, saying, Bobby Jean said, Sante told

873
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 2: me that Cleveland killed a guy, and then Ronald said,

874
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,879
Speaker 2: Cleveland confessed to William Horn to me, and that is it.

875
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 2: He is given twenty years to life in prison just

876
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 2: based on that information. And we haven't even gotten to

877
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 2: Sante's trial yet.

878
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I think it's it's very very weak. I'm

879
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 3: not absolving Cleveland's potential role, and I owe these homicides,

880
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 3: but I think it's too weak to as as far

881
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: as I'm concerned, to even have affected an arrest let

882
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 3: alone to gain a conviction. And I do want to

883
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 3: point out I think when you said told me about

884
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,919
Speaker 3: Belv's initial statements regarding the description of the shooter, well,

885
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 3: she couldn't really see much, so how can she say

886
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 3: that is the stocking cap that the shooter had on

887
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 3: his head.

888
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 2: All things considered, here we go into this trial January

889
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty and the prosecutor is able to use

890
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: Ronald Willis and Bobby jan Phillips once again, except one

891
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 2: of the issues is that both of these people in

892
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 2: this time period in between Cleveland's trial and the beginning

893
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 2: of Sante's trial have evolved with their statements to give

894
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,439
Speaker 2: Sante a lot more weight in both of these murders.

895
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: So they're kind of updating their stories. Ronald had initially

896
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 2: said that Sante did not get involved with William Horn's death.

897
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 2: Now he says, well, wait a second, I actually think

898
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 2: he was an accomplice. I think that Sante was Cleveland's

899
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 2: look out during that murder, the first murder. And then

900
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,800
Speaker 2: Bobby Jane says that she really believes strongly that Sante

901
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 2: was connected to John McCormick's murder. And of course this

902
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 2: is after the FBI's hair analysis data comes out that

903
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 2: is quote unquote conclusively linking this stocking cap to Sante.

904
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: So all of this feels so weak.

905
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 2: Really, the only sort of upstanding citizen witness here, Belvi McCormick,

906
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: had almost no view because he was running away by

907
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 2: the time she got to the window. So it was

908
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 2: a flash of a shot and that was it. And

909
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 2: now we've got Sante going on trial.

910
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and when you start talking about the

911
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 3: results of the hair examination and Bobby kind of changing

912
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 3: her her statements and maybe Ronald changing his statements, you know,

913
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 3: I imagine that there's some press happening on Cleveland's conviction

914
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 3: and what is being presented at trial. This seems like

915
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 3: there's maybe some attention, some public attention to this case.

916
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 3: Is that fair to say, Oh yeah.

917
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: Lots lots lots of scrutiny, yep, Okay. So during closing arguments,

918
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 2: because this trial went very similarly to Cleveland's trial, where

919
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 2: they're really conclusively tying the hair to Sante to this stalking,

920
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 2: what the prosecutor said was that Sante's hair matched the

921
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,919
Speaker 2: strands found in the stalking quote perfectly. The prosecutor told

922
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 2: the courtroom that there is listen to this one chance,

923
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 2: perhaps for all we know, in ten million that it

924
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 2: could be someone else's hair. Bold statement, Well.

925
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 3: That's bs. Yeah, part of like the FBI's expert witness,

926
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 3: you know, he's not necessarily testifying in a way that

927
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 3: is negligent because it was the understanding of the science

928
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 3: as it was at the time. However, to put a

929
00:51:56,239 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 3: figure on there of one in ten million, there's just

930
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 3: no way even back then, I mean, there was just

931
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 3: no type of calculation to put on these various microscopic

932
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 3: features of a hair to come up with some sort

933
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 3: of weight like that. There is most certainly bad information

934
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 3: being presented at trial in this case.

935
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 2: Well, at this point in this trial, just to reiterate,

936
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 2: we've got Sante who's on trial from murder, and also they.

937
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: Put armed robbery on there.

938
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 2: Even though I don't think they ever recovered money that

939
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 2: was taken from John McCormick conclusively by Sante. He is

940
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 2: ultimately by a jury acquitted for the murder of William Horn,

941
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 2: the one that Cleveland was convicted of, but he is

942
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 2: convicted of murdering McCormick, and Sante is sentenced to twenty

943
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 2: years to life, just like Cleveland was. There are appeals,

944
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 2: as you can imagine, but they are both incarcerated for

945
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: decades and decades and decades. So we are going to

946
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 2: fast forward to some thing that I think is very interesting.

947
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 2: In April of two thousand and three, Sante had been

948
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,760
Speaker 2: in prison for twenty five years and he is released

949
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 2: on parole. Cleveland was released four years later on parole.

950
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 2: Sante lives his life for six years, and in two

951
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 2: thousand and nine he kind of starts to take control.

952
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 2: He comes across an article in the Washington Post about

953
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,439
Speaker 2: a guy named Donald Gates. I had read about him.

954
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 2: Do you know anything about Donald Gates? Have you heard

955
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 2: that name? He's out of DC, convicted of murder.

956
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 3: No, not just off the name.

957
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 2: Okay, So the Washington Post did an article in two

958
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 2: thousand and nine and it was centered on the FBI

959
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:41,320
Speaker 2: hair match analysis issues and that the analysis in Donald

960
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 2: Gates's case had crumbled after there was mitochondrial DNA run

961
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 2: on the hair in his case and it showed that

962
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 2: the hair collected from that crime scene didn't belong to

963
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 2: Donald Gates at all. So it sounds like he was

964
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: exonerated and Sante reached out to Donald Gates's attorney and says,

965
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 2: I need help. I think that they did something wonky

966
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 2: with the hair in my case that was not my stocking.

967
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 2: I don't know what they're talking about. And so this

968
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 2: attorney sends off the hair in Sante's case for mitochondrial

969
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 2: DNA testing, and also Cleveland Wright submits his DNA for

970
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 2: comparison in twenty twelve, so this is three years later.

971
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,279
Speaker 2: The results come in and the DNA has excluded both

972
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 2: Sante and Cleveland as sources of those samples, so the

973
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 2: hares did not belong to either one of them. There's

974
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 2: dog hair mixed up in there that apparently the FBI

975
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 2: did not identify in nineteen seventy eight. I'm presumed from

976
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 2: the police dog that had found this stocking or it's.

977
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 3: A pet of the owner of the stocking cap.

978
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 2: I mean maybe yeah, But the bottom line is the

979
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 2: hairs do not match either of these guys. When we're

980
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 2: talking about mitochondrial DNA, is this reliable this type of

981
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 2: DNA testing for what we're talking about.

982
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 3: In order to exclude both Cleveland and santea sources of

983
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 3: the hair, Yes, mitochondrial DNA is DNA that's found in

984
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 3: the mitochondria cells, and it just happens to be passed

985
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 3: down through the generations on the maternal side of the family,

986
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 3: so you have the same mitochondrial DNA as your mother,

987
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 3: as your grandmother, et cetera. So mitochondrial DNA is a

988
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 3: very very sensitive technology, So we would resort to using

989
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 3: mitochondrial DNA because it's not like the typical nuclear DNA

990
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 3: that we go after that can really pinpoint who the

991
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 3: donor of that DNA sample is. Madochondrial DNA just basically

992
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 3: brings it down into a family. But if your mitochondrial

993
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 3: DNA sample doesn't match the evidence, you are absolutely excluded.

994
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 3: You know. Part of this though, is, you know, I

995
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 3: still have concerns about the stocking cap and its relationship

996
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 3: to the crime scene. In some ways, it's like, well,

997
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 3: it doesn't necessarily absolve Cleveland or sante As being the

998
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 3: shooters if that stocking cap was worn by somebody who

999
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 3: just was walking in the neighborhood the night before. But

1000
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 3: from a legal standpoint, this was primary evidence used to

1001
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 3: convict them back in nineteen seventy eight seventy nine time frame,

1002
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 3: so absolutely it should overturn their sentence, even though they've

1003
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 3: already served their time, and it is, from my perspective,

1004
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 3: a bona fide exoneration from the conviction. But I'm still like, well,

1005
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 3: are they involved in the homicides or not? You know,

1006
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 3: But there's no evidence at this point to be able

1007
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 3: to finger them for either homicide.

1008
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 2: Except two sketchy witnesses who both seem to want something

1009
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 2: from the ployees. So let me tell you, I didn't

1010
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 2: give you any of the details. So there were thirteen

1011
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 2: hairs from that stalking, and the hairs came conclusively not

1012
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 2: from Sante, not from Cleveland, from three other human sources,

1013
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 2: except for one of the hairs, which came from a which,

1014
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 2: as you said, could have been you know, anybody's dog

1015
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 2: or the police dog who sniffed out this stalking to

1016
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 2: begin with. Sure, and it says that the FBI trained

1017
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 2: examiners either disputed this, you know, ignored the information, didn't

1018
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 2: know how to get the information, or missed it one way.

1019
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 1: Or the other.

1020
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 2: Would you not have been able to identify with a

1021
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 2: microscope the difference between a human hair and a dog hair.

1022
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 3: That's easy.

1023
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 2: Why would they do that? I guess they just assumed

1024
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 2: that this was from the police dog.

1025
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 3: Maybe that's hard to say. Sometimes we recover trace evidence

1026
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 3: that is packaged away for future analysis, but focus in

1027
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 3: on the evidence that's going to help the investigation or

1028
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 3: help with the case in chief. And we know in

1029
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 3: this case that you have a shooter who's human, so

1030
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 3: the focus is going to be on the human hairs

1031
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 3: and you know, doing doggy DNA, which is possible. But

1032
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 3: on a case like this, if this is a let's say,

1033
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 3: a family pet from nineteen seventy eight, that pet has gone,

1034
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 3: it's very unlikely that the owner of the pet kept

1035
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 3: a DNA sample. You know, sometimes it does happen, you

1036
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 3: know for sure, But is it really anything that's going

1037
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 3: to be worth the time and effort to pursue. I'd

1038
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 3: be pursuing in this day and age, not only identifying

1039
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 3: who the sources of that hair is. Is there other

1040
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 3: DNA off of that stocking cap Because now that you

1041
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 3: have in essence, I'm assuming that Sante and Cleveland their

1042
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 3: convictions are overturned as a result of this new evidence. Yep, Okay.

1043
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 3: Now the case is remanded back to the investigating agency

1044
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 3: as an unsolved homicide. In both instances, Now it's okay,

1045
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 3: who is the killer? This is just like it's a

1046
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 3: cold case in which nobody was ever convicted on and

1047
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 3: the stocking cap, as concerned as I am about is

1048
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 3: it related or not? Is something that you can do

1049
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 3: to identify whose DNA is on that stocking cap? And

1050
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 3: now you developed another suspect pool to investigate to see

1051
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 3: can you figure out who the actual shooter or shooters

1052
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 3: are in each of these homicides?

1053
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:12,439
Speaker 2: You know, I remember an interesting case from a show

1054
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 2: a long time ago where it was the Dallas, Texas

1055
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 2: DA who was you know, running all of the DNA tests?

1056
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 2: And I feel like there was a meeting between somebody

1057
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 2: who had been convicted of sexual assault murder and a

1058
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 2: defense attorney and they met and they ran the DNA

1059
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 2: test on the sex assault kit and it came back

1060
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 2: that he was not a match. And he said, great,

1061
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 2: now I get to be released, and she said no,

1062
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 2: because what this says is that you didn't sexually assault her.

1063
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 2: It does not say you did not murder her. And

1064
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 2: they had believed that two people had been involved. So

1065
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 2: when you were talking about well this doesn't I mean

1066
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 2: these two guys could still be involved legally though, no,

1067
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean that we can point to someone

1068
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 2: and say this person definitely did it, Santae and Cleveland

1069
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 2: didn't do it. It just means they shouldn't have been

1070
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 2: convicted at all or even looked at really right.

1071
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 3: And like in the case with the sexual assault, you know,

1072
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 3: it really does come down to, Okay, what was actually

1073
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 3: presented in court that led to the conviction. And that's

1074
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 3: where the evaluation of the DNA evidence. Does it truly

1075
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 3: exonerate based on what the jury or the judge used

1076
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 3: to convict. And it can be something where you might

1077
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 3: have somebody who is convicted truly innocent, but the DNA

1078
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 3: doesn't stand alone and is insufficient to exonerate because there

1079
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 3: is so much other evidence presented against that particular defendant.

1080
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 3: It's very nuanced. But it's also concerning from my perspective

1081
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 3: because oftentimes decisions are made on exonerations based off of

1082
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 3: DNA evidence. And I'm going hold on a second. You know,

1083
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 3: do you have the right person understand how that DNA

1084
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 3: matters within the context of how the crime occurs, And

1085
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 3: most cases never have an expert that really can put

1086
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 3: together sort of a reconstruction of the crime to be

1087
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 3: able to determine the sort of the confidence level that

1088
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:22,439
Speaker 3: the DNA present is truly from the killer versus from

1089
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 3: potentially another innocent source.

1090
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 2: Well, just to conclude this case, in twenty twelve, the

1091
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 2: charges against Sante were dismissed. The judge gave him a

1092
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 2: certificate of innocence. He had the compensation under the District

1093
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 2: Columbia Unjust Imprisonment Act, which was fifty thousand dollars a

1094
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 2: year for every year he was wrongfully imprisoned. This was

1095
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 2: a little over thirteen million, and the daughter of John McCormick,

1096
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 2: the cab driver, said, I am all for this. She said,

1097
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 2: this is not the guy. He shouldn't have been in prison,

1098
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 2: and this seems like the right thing to do. Two

1099
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 2: years later, the judge a Judge Vacer hates Cleveland rights conviction. Also,

1100
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 2: he was also given a certificate of innocence. We don't

1101
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 2: know if he got money. We assume he did fifty

1102
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 2: thousand for twenty eight years wrongfully imprisoned and just in

1103
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four years ago Sante died from an illness

1104
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 2: that his son believes was linked to his time in prison.

1105
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 2: So he had been out for about seventeen years until

1106
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 2: he died, and then we don't know where Cleveland Right

1107
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 2: is at this point. But as you said, the murders

1108
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 2: of William Horn and John McCormick from nineteen seventy eight

1109
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 2: are unsolved, officially unsolved, and this becomes a big case

1110
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 2: along with other cases that squarely focuses on the faulty

1111
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 2: and overstated hair match analysis by the FBI, and it

1112
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 2: becomes a big story.

1113
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 3: I remember receiving I was the chief over Forensic Services

1114
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 3: Division at the time, so it must have been circa

1115
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 3: twenty ten, maybe later. But remember receiving the letter from

1116
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 3: the FBI that had been sent out to all labs

1117
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 3: across the nation because over the decades we had all

1118
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 3: sent scientists back to the FBI to be trained in

1119
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 3: their hair examination methodologies. They were alerting us that, yes,

1120
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 3: there is a problem with the science as well as

1121
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 3: there's a problem with the procedures that were taught by

1122
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:27,959
Speaker 3: the FBI. And we had known we had abandoned doing

1123
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 3: hair examinations quite early because the DNA was really showing

1124
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 3: why even bother with the hair examination, just determine is

1125
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 3: it human? If you can determine race, you know, that's

1126
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 3: maybe an investigative lead, but let's get this pumping through

1127
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 3: into DNA and see if we can recover DNA and

1128
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:49,240
Speaker 3: then use that in order to compare to potential suspects.

1129
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 2: It always interests me when we have cases from the

1130
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 2: seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds where we look at the

1131
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 2: evidence and kind of say, this is rock solid. Even

1132
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 2: for today, there's solid witnesses, there's forensics that they can

1133
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 2: actually use, there's a host of things. They can trace people,

1134
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 2: they can trace money, all of this stuff, and then

1135
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 2: we're in nineteen seventy eight, which to me is like

1136
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 2: yesterday in the cases that we do, and you know,

1137
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 2: moving forward through our cases, it's great to analyze what

1138
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 2: people have done in the past. And I love that

1139
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 2: I learned from you what we do presently. And it

1140
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 2: feels like it changes every day. I mean, I feel

1141
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 2: like we're going to talk about a DNA case pretty

1142
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 2: soon and you're going to say, Okay, this just came out,

1143
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 2: this brand new technique and let me tell you all

1144
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 2: about it.

1145
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 3: Well, and technology is marching forward, and you know, I've

1146
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 3: been fortunate to have been able to employ some of

1147
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 3: the newest technology on cases and have seen it worked

1148
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 3: a great effect, you know, to get family's answers, but

1149
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 3: also to see exonerations. You know it cuts both ways,

1150
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 3: and you know in some ways you're correcting wrongs with

1151
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,960
Speaker 3: the new technology, but you can never give those wrongfully

1152
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:04,920
Speaker 3: convicted individuals their lives back the years that they lost

1153
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 3: being behind bars.

1154
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 2: Well, another amazing case, and we'll have an equally amazing,

1155
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 2: if not more amazing case next week. So I think

1156
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 2: you'll still see me in glasses, but we can always

1157
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 2: cross our fingers. Go stalk my eye doctor right now

1158
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 2: to try to get these thinking god texts because I'm

1159
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 2: tired of squinting at you.

1160
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:27,479
Speaker 3: Well, you know what, I look forward to being able

1161
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 3: to see your eyes instead of the reflection of the

1162
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 3: light in your glasses. How's that you've.

1163
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:35,960
Speaker 1: Never told me that? Now I have something else to

1164
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:36,640
Speaker 1: worry about.

1165
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:38,880
Speaker 3: Oh, there's so many things I haven't told you.

1166
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 2: Keep that, Okay, none of us can wait to hear

1167
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:42,480
Speaker 2: all of this.

1168
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:44,360
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I will see you next week.

1169
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 3: Sounds good, Tike of.

1170
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

1171
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 2: and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com, slash Buried

1172
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:00,560
Speaker 2: Bones sources Our senior producer is Alexis I'mrosi.

1173
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1174
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1175
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1176
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 2: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1177
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1178
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:20,520
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1179
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:21,760
Speaker 2: Barry Bones Pod.

1180
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1181
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1182
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:28,600
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now

1183
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

1184
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 2: Cold Cases, is also available now