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Speaker 1: M h. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast,

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Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all

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Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best

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Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard

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Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more

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Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit

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Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While

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Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,

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Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship

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Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. And y'all, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me for session one oh one of

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Speaker 1: a Therapy for Black Girls podcasts. In today's episode, we're

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Speaker 1: chatting about how you can increase your confidence related to

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Speaker 1: sexuality and how a lack of confidence sometimes leads us

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Speaker 1: to feeling less aroused. For this conversation, I was joined

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Speaker 1: by Dr Pia Halleck. Dr Hollick is a psychotherapist at

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Speaker 1: Resilien Psychological Services in Chicago, Illinois, where she specializes in

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Speaker 1: working with minority populations in the areas of sexual dysfunction,

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Speaker 1: relationship concerns, and trauma. Doctor Hollick received her Doctorate of

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Speaker 1: Clinical Psychology from the Chicago School of Professional Psychology. During

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Speaker 1: this time, she trained at Rush University Medical Center's Marital

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Speaker 1: and Sex Therapy Department, where she gained specialized training and

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Speaker 1: working with couples and treating sexual dysfunctions. She completed her

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Speaker 1: clinical internship at Mount Sinai, St. Luke's and Roosevelt Hospitals

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Speaker 1: in New York, New York. Dr Hollick and I discuss

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Speaker 1: some of the issues that can chip away at our

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Speaker 1: confidence related to sexuality, some of the concerns that lead

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Speaker 1: to sex being less pleasurable or even painful, how you

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Speaker 1: can talk with your partner about getting your needs met,

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Speaker 1: and she shared how she uses sins sate focus therapy

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Speaker 1: with couples in her practice. If you hear something that

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Speaker 1: resonates with you while listening, be sure to share it

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Speaker 1: with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in Session.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Well, thanks so much for joining us today,

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Speaker 1: Dr Pa, Thank you so much for having me. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you here. So for those

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Speaker 1: of you who are not following Dr Pierre on i G,

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Speaker 1: you definitely have to because she has this feature that

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Speaker 1: she calls just the Tip Tuesday, which you're super fun

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Speaker 1: and she gives great information about sexuality and to help

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Speaker 1: you start thinking about how to think differently about your

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Speaker 1: sexual relationships and just you know, great information overall. So

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Speaker 1: definitely check out her. I g thank you. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure that we kind of started,

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Speaker 1: I know, and when we were talking about planning for

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Speaker 1: the episode, you share that you feel like there is

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Speaker 1: still a significant level of discomfort with people even talking

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Speaker 1: about sexuality. Can you share more about like what you've

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Speaker 1: seen and why you think there is still so much discomfort. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I feel like people often lack the verbiage of how

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Speaker 1: to talk about sex. Right. A lot of us weren't

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Speaker 1: talked about sex, whether that was in school or in

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Speaker 1: our home environments. It's just there's a level of embarrassment.

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Speaker 1: There's a level of fear of judgment and shame that

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Speaker 1: I particularly see, especially with Black women, that oftentimes they

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Speaker 1: feel that they've been over sexualized, maybe in the media

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Speaker 1: or maybe even just growing up being told Okay, well

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Speaker 1: you know, you can't wear certain clothing because then, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, look at your body if they're more voluptuous.

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Speaker 1: All of these different factors impact a woman's discomfort with

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Speaker 1: you know, talking about sex with other people. That is

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Speaker 1: a great observation that apia because you know, I think

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Speaker 1: we see a lot of conversations online and there's I

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Speaker 1: think even been research I'm sure about you know, like

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Speaker 1: really wanting to kind of maybe play down your sexuality

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Speaker 1: as not to feed into stereotypes as a black woman. Correct, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And so that you know, causes people to be very

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Speaker 1: self conscious about either their appearance or you know, playing

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Speaker 1: into how they should you know, quote unquote should I

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Speaker 1: hate the words should, but how they should present as

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Speaker 1: a sexualized person. And so it causes folks to not

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Speaker 1: want to explore their own sexuality or have knowledge about

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Speaker 1: what they prefer or don't prefer. And are there particular

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Speaker 1: um sexual acts or aspects of sexuality that you find

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Speaker 1: this happens more often with so I know, like when

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Speaker 1: I was in college and we even talked about this,

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Speaker 1: you know, like the idea of like giving oral sex

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Speaker 1: was a really meek taboo, right, like that was not

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Speaker 1: something that you did, not something that you talked about.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know that that still exists or maybe

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Speaker 1: not to the same level, but I do think that

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Speaker 1: there is still some taboo around that. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: more about any particular X that you feel like they

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Speaker 1: have more of a stigma than others. Absolutely, so I

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Speaker 1: think that there is still it is not as greatly

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Speaker 1: as it used to be with there is still a

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Speaker 1: huge stigma around oral sex and who you're gonna give

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Speaker 1: oral sex to, who you're going to allow to perform

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Speaker 1: oral sex on you. I think the new biggest thing

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Speaker 1: now is a taboo around anal sex, not wanting to

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Speaker 1: have conversations about that and what that might mean about

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Speaker 1: you if you're engaging in anal sex. And then the

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Speaker 1: next one that I see a lot with women is

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Speaker 1: a taboo around masturbation and feeling like a feeling of

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Speaker 1: shame for masturbating, or feeling like they don't need to masturbate,

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Speaker 1: or oh that's girls, I don't want to touch myself

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Speaker 1: like that, or wanting to even have conversations with others

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Speaker 1: about masturbation, oral sex, or anal sex. So, of course,

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Speaker 1: I think conversations like this really help people to get

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Speaker 1: a verbish to talk about some of this. Well, what

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Speaker 1: are some of the other things that people can be

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Speaker 1: doing to become more comfortable not only exploring and you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe engaging in some of these as, but just the

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Speaker 1: idea of talking about it. Yeah, So I think first

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Speaker 1: recognizing for themselves what is causing the barrier. You know,

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Speaker 1: a lot with my patients, I go through a sexual

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Speaker 1: history review with them to learn, well, what images did

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Speaker 1: you see growing up regarding sex, what conversations did you

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Speaker 1: have about sex? How did you build a stigma around

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Speaker 1: sex if you did, or perhaps you grew up in

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Speaker 1: a really open sexual environment. So really learning from them,

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Speaker 1: what is their schema about sex, what are their thoughts

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Speaker 1: about sex on an individual basis, So doing some more

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Speaker 1: self reflective work that will allow them to kind of

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Speaker 1: have some knowledge and tools and skills about how to

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Speaker 1: talk about sex with others. Then I often recommend you, know, hey,

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Speaker 1: like read some books about sex, follow some podcasts, follow

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Speaker 1: some things on i g. To see how other people

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Speaker 1: are communicating about sex, to allow yourself to have an

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Speaker 1: open dialogue with either your girlfriends or your partner, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned like following different like accounts on social media.

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Speaker 1: I know you and lots of other sex therapists are

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Speaker 1: very active on particularly Instagram, but I think also Twitter

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Speaker 1: and Facebook. And giving information. Do you think that that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff is helpful? I do because I think

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Speaker 1: it normalizes what they might be going through. A lot

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Speaker 1: of times when women come into my office, they have

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Speaker 1: such a feeling of shame and things like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I'm the only one going through this because they're not

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Speaker 1: talking about it with their friends or girlfriends or perhaps

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Speaker 1: whatever they're going through, you know, no one else is

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Speaker 1: experiencing that. So being able to hear others talk about this,

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh wow, okay, Like this is something that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people experience. There's more of a comfort

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Speaker 1: to ask more questions or to learn more knowledge. So

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Speaker 1: I think you bring up a great point, which leads

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Speaker 1: me to a question that actually one of our listeners

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Speaker 1: submitted around the idea of like, would somebody come to

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Speaker 1: see you as a sex therapist if they're not actively

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Speaker 1: engaged in a sexual relationship? Like benefit would it be

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Speaker 1: to come and meet with a sex therapist if you're

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Speaker 1: not actually in a sexual relationship? Yeah? Absolutely, And you

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Speaker 1: know what, that tends to happen a lot more than

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Speaker 1: folks would think. The main reason I tend to see

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Speaker 1: folks who are not in a relationship because they're saying,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how to be in a relationship. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how to be in a sexual relationship. And

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Speaker 1: while I'm in my single phase, I want to try

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Speaker 1: to figure out, you know, what's what's creating these barriers.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes that's an impact of sexual trauma and trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out how do I heal from sexual trauma? How

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Speaker 1: can I be you know, this sexual being with a

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Speaker 1: new partner when I don't feel comfortable right, so that

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Speaker 1: there's a sexual trauma. Or two, if there's someone who

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Speaker 1: you know hasn't had positive sexual interactions in the past

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Speaker 1: and they don't engage in self exploration of their body,

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Speaker 1: so they come in to figure out, well, what do

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Speaker 1: I do with that? So how can I be you know,

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Speaker 1: a more fulfilling partner and being more fulfilling relationships? And

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Speaker 1: so what are some of the things that you will

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Speaker 1: introduce to somebody who comes in and say something like that,

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Speaker 1: like where would you start? M hm? So I start

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Speaker 1: with this shrual history to you know again and get

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Speaker 1: their background on their thoughts about sex, their past sexual

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Speaker 1: encounters and any sexual trauma, the age at which they

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Speaker 1: first engaged in sex, and you know, typically just how

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Speaker 1: they think about sex, and then we start talking about

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Speaker 1: it and ruling out any type of sexual dysfunctions. I

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Speaker 1: see a lot of women who come in with vaginousness,

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Speaker 1: which is a contraction of the pelvic floor and which

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Speaker 1: they're not able to be penetrated. I see a lot

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Speaker 1: of women who suffer from female sexual arousal disorder, in

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Speaker 1: which they just simply aren't desiring sex, whether that's been

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Speaker 1: you know, lifelong, or it's occurred perhaps after childbirth, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: So sort of reviewing some of those things and putting

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Speaker 1: a name to symptoms and which women because of like, wow,

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Speaker 1: I didn't even know that was a thing, Like I

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Speaker 1: didn't even know this is something that I could come

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Speaker 1: in to talk to someone about. And sunny enough, just

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Speaker 1: sometimes when women come into my office and they see

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Speaker 1: the books on my wall, they're like, Oh, I was

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Speaker 1: just coming in for anxiety, but I see that you

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Speaker 1: have this book about you know, she comes first, I

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Speaker 1: what's that about? I usually don't have orgasm. Sometimes the

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Speaker 1: conversation ends up being organic that leads us down the

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Speaker 1: road of exploring their sexuality. I'm wondering how often it

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Speaker 1: does happen either for you, and you know, it would

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Speaker 1: be interesting to even talk with other therapists about that.

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Speaker 1: You know, like how often somebody will come in for

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Speaker 1: one thing and then it leads to this other thing?

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Speaker 1: Or are you seeing that people are presenting with one

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Speaker 1: thing but really the sex stuff? Is that what they

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Speaker 1: really want to talk about? You know what I think

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Speaker 1: that right now it's been happening is people are coming

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Speaker 1: in under the guise of anxiety, and society is so

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Speaker 1: prevalent that even like scheduling the initial session, they're unable

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Speaker 1: to see that they're coming in for sexual concerns. And

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Speaker 1: then I think coming into the environment and seeing the

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Speaker 1: books are hearing me first, you know, put it out there,

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Speaker 1: like let's talk about your sexuality, let's talk about sex.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, okay, she's comfortable with talking about this.

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Speaker 1: I've had, you know, some folks come in and say,

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Speaker 1: my last therapist they didn't want to talk about sex,

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Speaker 1: so I felt uncomfortable in doing so. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: how to bring it up. So by me initiating that

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Speaker 1: conversation and showing that I feel comfortable talking about it

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Speaker 1: will help ease them into it. So I would say

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Speaker 1: more so I'm seeing people who don't necessarily intend on

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Speaker 1: coming in for that, right And I think that's another

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Speaker 1: benefit of you know, so many therapists being active on

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Speaker 1: social media and giving videos and information because it does

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Speaker 1: let people know that this is the thing that can

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Speaker 1: be talked about in therapy. But as you mentioned, I

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Speaker 1: do think that some therapists are still uncomfortable, you know,

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Speaker 1: like if they're not necessarily a sex therapist, that may

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Speaker 1: not be something that they ask, but it is important

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Speaker 1: because it is a part of the whole person, right absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And I think when you asked earlier, why aren't people

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Speaker 1: talking about sex and why aren't therapist talking about sex?

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Speaker 1: We're not taught it, you know, we're not taught it

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Speaker 1: in our graduate programs. How to have these conversations feel

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Speaker 1: like oftentimes it's something that you have to you know,

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Speaker 1: specialize in or you know, get additional training in. So

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Speaker 1: there's you know, there's just again not the verbage of

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Speaker 1: how to have these conversations. Right. So you mentioned a

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Speaker 1: couple of sexual disorders that I want to follow up about,

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Speaker 1: um so, specifically female sexual arousal disorder. Can you say

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Speaker 1: more about what that is and maybe some of the

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Speaker 1: things that may lead to someone struggling with that. Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: So female sexual interest or arousal disorder pretty much means

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Speaker 1: of reduced interest in sexual activity or you know, or

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Speaker 1: reduced interests and thoughts or fantasies, um a lack of

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Speaker 1: excitement or pleasure during sexual activity and majority of the time,

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Speaker 1: and you know, this happens over the course of at

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Speaker 1: least six months to be able to receive such a diagnosis.

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Speaker 1: I sometimes joke with folks and say, like, this is

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Speaker 1: like heterosexual woman watching ghosts on Power and having you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like watching paint dry. There's no reaction to the

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Speaker 1: stimulus at hand. I would imagine that it may be

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Speaker 1: difficult to kind of gauge like whether somebody is struggling

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Speaker 1: in this area, Like, how do you know what normal

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Speaker 1: would be? Yeah, And so I tell both, you know,

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Speaker 1: we all get to decide what our normal is. And

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Speaker 1: oftentimes when I see women coming in, heterosexual women, it's

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Speaker 1: because their partner might say to them, well, you don't

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Speaker 1: want sex as much as I do. And we're socialized

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Speaker 1: to use men as the default narrative to how frequently

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Speaker 1: we quote unquote you know should be having sex. And

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Speaker 1: so working with a woman to normalize, well, how often

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Speaker 1: do you desire it? Or what? You know, what is

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Speaker 1: the amount of times that you would feel comfortable having sex?

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Speaker 1: And sometimes we might say, you know, not at all.

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Speaker 1: And then it's a exploration of what's causing that lack

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Speaker 1: of desire to happen. Are we feeling really overwhelmed? Are

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Speaker 1: we feeling really stressed? Are we not having pleasure? Are

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Speaker 1: we not being able to get aroused during sex? So

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like, well, I don't want to engage

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Speaker 1: in this activity that doesn't bring me any joy or

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Speaker 1: any pleasure. So the understanding is that you should have

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Speaker 1: some arousal. I mean, because I'm thinking about people who

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Speaker 1: identify as a sexual. Um, you know, so how do

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Speaker 1: you like make the distinction between like somebody who identifies

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Speaker 1: as a sexual and someone who may be struggling with

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Speaker 1: like a sexual arousal thing? Right? So I feel like

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Speaker 1: the person who's struggling with a sexual arousal, they are

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Speaker 1: distressed that they're not experiencing desires that it okay? So

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Speaker 1: that's really the key, right, Their distressed that it's causing

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Speaker 1: conflict within their relationship, or perhaps they're saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: I used to be really sexual and I used to

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Speaker 1: be really morning and what sex all the time, and

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Speaker 1: now that's just not happening for me. Okay, Okay, got you.

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Speaker 1: So I do think that that can be really delicate, right,

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Speaker 1: Dr Pia, Because I think sometimes when you're in a

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Speaker 1: partnership and maybe you're not feeling aroused, or maybe you

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Speaker 1: used to and you're not feeling anymore, that can be

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Speaker 1: really difficult to talk to a partner about. So what

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Speaker 1: are some suggestions you have for like how you might

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Speaker 1: be able to have this conversation with a partner. Sure,

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Speaker 1: I think it comes with first some self reflection on

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Speaker 1: what's going on for yourself first. Right, So if we're

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Speaker 1: able to come to our partner and speak in ice

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Speaker 1: statements about what's going on personally for us, it you know,

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Speaker 1: puts us on the seat of being vulnerable, but it

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Speaker 1: allows your partner to be a little bit more receptive

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Speaker 1: to express like, Hey, this is something that I'm going

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Speaker 1: through and I don't know why it's happening. I'm noticing

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Speaker 1: this shift. I really want to be more connected with you,

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Speaker 1: and I'm struggling with that right now. Right, you know,

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Speaker 1: it distresses me that this is happening, So really figuring

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Speaker 1: out for yourself what's going on and perhaps why that's happening,

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Speaker 1: and then bringing that to your partner. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: think it also is important to make sure, like you said,

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Speaker 1: like really talking about the fact that you are struggling

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Speaker 1: with it and that it's not that you don't care,

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Speaker 1: but you're not sure what's going on either, as a

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Speaker 1: way of making sure that you're not like blaming the

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Speaker 1: other person for your lack of interest exactly. And oftentimes

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Speaker 1: what I hear is that a person's partner might say, well,

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Speaker 1: do you not are you not attracted to me anymore?

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Speaker 1: Do you not want me anymore? You know, are you

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Speaker 1: not physically responding to me anymore? And majority of women

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Speaker 1: you know around us all starts for us in the brain, right,

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Speaker 1: We we need to be intellectually stimulated and mentally stimulated.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of times that happens, you know, via

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Speaker 1: conversations or having date night or all types of things

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Speaker 1: of that. So part of having that conversation with the

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Speaker 1: partner can involve well, have you noticed there has been

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Speaker 1: a shift in the relationship in general? Is there, you know,

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Speaker 1: feelings of resentment or have we gotten so busy that

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Speaker 1: we don't experience pleasurable times together like date nights, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: And I would imagine that another thing that may really

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Speaker 1: be a struggle is an internalizing of you know, an

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Speaker 1: arousal issue. So is something wrong with me? Am I

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Speaker 1: broken somehow? Yes? Absolutely, that's like the actual word that

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Speaker 1: so many women use it like I feel broken? It

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Speaker 1: just it's not working anymore. Why do I not desire

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Speaker 1: this person? And then there's those again, those feelings of

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Speaker 1: shame and embarrassment. So it sounds like typically you would

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Speaker 1: see these clients in your office, maybe after a partner

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Speaker 1: has suggested like, hey, you know something's really going on here, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: or after a woman has given birth and you know,

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Speaker 1: desire changes, or perhaps they are adjusting to new psychotropic

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Speaker 1: medication that's you know, inhibiting them from lubricating like they

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Speaker 1: used to, so they're stopping to desire sex, or perhaps,

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Speaker 1: like I said, if they've had vaginousness or any sort

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Speaker 1: of pain or discomfort with sex. You know, that's when

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Speaker 1: I'll see them more so coming in on their own,

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Speaker 1: not just because their partner has you know, suggested. So

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Speaker 1: can you talk more about veginismus because I don't think

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Speaker 1: that is again another disorder that we hear about often

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Speaker 1: um and the fact that it is psychiatric disorder, so

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily a medical thing, though I think you

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Speaker 1: know some of that co exists. Can you talk more

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Speaker 1: about what that is and what kind of things may

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Speaker 1: leads to vaginismus. Yeah, So vaginousness is the inability to

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Speaker 1: be penetrated vaginally during intercourse. A lot of times they

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Speaker 1: see women they're unable to insert a tampon or even

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Speaker 1: get a finger into the bulbil because the public floor

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Speaker 1: muscles are so tightly closed, and so this can happen

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Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons. I see this a lot

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Speaker 1: with women who have had unconsummated marriages. They're just very

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Speaker 1: scared that it's going to be painful. I've seen this

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Speaker 1: with women who have suffered some sort of trauma, whether

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Speaker 1: that be rape or perhaps when they were a child

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Speaker 1: they fell on a bicycle and broke their time in

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Speaker 1: and had a really distressing experience happened in that way.

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Speaker 1: I've seen this happen after women have given child birth,

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Speaker 1: and there's just so much pain associated with thinking about

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Speaker 1: being penetrated. Got you, So it sounds like much of

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Speaker 1: it is related to maybe a past trauma or some

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Speaker 1: kind of traumatic experience that results in this and or

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Speaker 1: just like an extreme anxiety or fear about penetration being painful.

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Speaker 1: And I think that goes back to your earlier comment

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Speaker 1: right about you know, like not even being taught as

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Speaker 1: young people about like what sex is, and that you

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Speaker 1: know it may be painful the first time, and you know,

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Speaker 1: like how do you manage some of the anxiety that

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Speaker 1: may come later in life, you know, if you decide

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Speaker 1: to become essentially active, that could be avoided if we

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Speaker 1: were giving kids the proper information about six early on. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: So what kinds of things do you think, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: like how would you design a perfect sex education class

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Speaker 1: for like high schoolers if you were in charge. Oh wait,

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Speaker 1: that's a good one. I think first teaching you know,

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Speaker 1: proper terminology and anatomy. Definitely teaching consent. I think that's

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Speaker 1: something that you know is totally avoid within sexual education

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Speaker 1: and normalizing self exploration and masturbation and also normalizing pleasure.

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Speaker 1: I feel that from what I've seen, sex ad is

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Speaker 1: more so of like these are the parts, this is

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Speaker 1: what happens, This is but your menstrual cycle is going

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Speaker 1: to be like this is what I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: interaction is and then you have sex and the baby

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Speaker 1: comes and you know, here we go. And it really

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Speaker 1: lacks just providing more information, more real life example information

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Speaker 1: to teenagers and to talk about what happens in sexual relationships,

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Speaker 1: you know, talking about birth control, you know, other contraceptive methods.

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Speaker 1: And I know there's a lot of folks myself included.

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Speaker 1: I went to Catholic school, so contraception was never discussed.

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Speaker 1: You know, pleasure was never discussed in sexual education. So

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Speaker 1: you know, teenagers are trying to serve the internet to

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Speaker 1: get that information or you know, talking to their friends

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Speaker 1: where it's sort of like blind leaving the blind sometimes

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Speaker 1: to disseminate that information. Yeah, parents get really freaked out

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Speaker 1: about us giving keys loss of information, but how often

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Speaker 1: do we give keys information about other things and they

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Speaker 1: don't follow us? Absolutely absolutely, And you know, research is

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Speaker 1: showing us that, you know, providing children with information is

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Speaker 1: not leading them to be you know more quote unquote

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Speaker 1: promiscuous or having sex at younger ages. Were actually seeing

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Speaker 1: that teenagers are having sex at a later age more

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Speaker 1: historically now based on them having that information because it's

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Speaker 1: not as taboo as it once was to talk about it. Awesome.

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Speaker 1: Really like that you included the idea of sex being

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Speaker 1: pleasurable for everyone, because we often only hear about sex

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Speaker 1: being pleasurable for guy as one. Of course, women deserve

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Speaker 1: to receive pleasure as well. Absolutely, and just exploring one's

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Speaker 1: sexuality and and normalizing that. Absolutely. So I don't know

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Speaker 1: very much about it, Dr Peter, but I know that

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Speaker 1: you practiced since sate focused therapy, can you tell us

400
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Speaker 1: more about it? Yeah? Absolutely so. Since I focused therapy

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00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,639
Speaker 1: was first started by Masters and Johnson and UM, it

402
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,680
Speaker 1: has now been readapted by Linda Winer and Constance Aprick Clark,

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Speaker 1: and we use this a lot when patients are coming

404
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Speaker 1: in with desire disorders, and it's just like the name

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Speaker 1: sounds since sensations UM focusing on the art of touch,

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Speaker 1: I feel like so often sex has become this idea

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Speaker 1: of being very procedural, and a lot of folks and

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Speaker 1: they think of sex, the first thing they think of

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Speaker 1: is penis and vagina sex, and that's become like the heteronormative,

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Speaker 1: you know, explanation of what sex looks like. And we

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Speaker 1: lose the art, uh for play and touch. So what

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Speaker 1: since they focus does is it teaches clients to focus

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Speaker 1: on the sensations of temperature, texture, and pressure. And it

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Speaker 1: really encourages patients to explore touch without any sort of

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Speaker 1: motive or any sort of goal or expectation about arousal

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Speaker 1: or pleasure. Right, because when someone's coming in with a

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Speaker 1: desire disorder, they feel like I'm not performing how I'm

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Speaker 1: supposed to. My partner, you know, is upset because I'm

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Speaker 1: not doing what they quote unquote expect me to do.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot of judgment there, right. So when

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Speaker 1: I lease someone through, since they focus after exercise, I

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Speaker 1: invite them to take some time and you know, allow

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Speaker 1: themselves to relax, get themselves into an environment where they're

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Speaker 1: good with the temperature of the room, the line of

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Speaker 1: the room, there's not going to be any distractions, and

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Speaker 1: you instruct them to explore their body from head to

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00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 1: toe again focusing on the temperature whether that's cool or warm,

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Speaker 1: the texture whether that's smooth or rough, and the pressure

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Speaker 1: whether that's soft or firm, and just allowing them to

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Speaker 1: notice what comes up. And oftentimes folks tell me, oh

431
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: my gosh, like, I'm supposed to be touching myself for

432
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: how long? And you know this is gonna get boring

433
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 1: and all of these things, and so it's it's it's

434
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,479
Speaker 1: encouraging mindful exploration of the body and to have an

435
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: awareness that you might have thoughts come up during this

436
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 1: touching exercise and those are those are distractions there there,

437
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 1: and to acknowledge them that they come up and then

438
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 1: just turned back to focusing on temperature, texture and pressure.

439
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: Is this something that you do in the office or

440
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: is this something that you're instructing them to do outside

441
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: of the office. No, no, no, this is definitely something

442
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: that's done at home. So you know, and I sometimes

443
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: adapted for patients, like if if someone's coming in with

444
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: a history of trauma or a significant reluctance or fear

445
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 1: to engage and partnered sex, I'll have them complete these

446
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: exercises by themselves before introducing their partner. So usually I say,

447
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: week one, I want you to go home and engage

448
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: in this touching exercise for about three times a week,

449
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: and that should range anywhere between five to twenty minutes,

450
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: focusing on again temperature touch during pressure. Week one would

451
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 1: be doing this with perhaps like you know Projamazon. Next

452
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: week they'll you know, move up to perhaps just like

453
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: a bathing suit or underwear. The following week they'll move

454
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: into being completely nude, exploring without insertion of any sort

455
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: or touching the breast or genitals in anyway. And then

456
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: fourth week you can involve touching of genitals and insertion.

457
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 1: So that's when you're working with someone just on an

458
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: individual basis. When I'm working with couples together and there

459
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 1: isn't a significant trauma history on board, I will invite

460
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: them to take turns with one person being the toucher

461
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 1: and one person being the touchy, and so they'll take

462
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: turns touching one another head to toe, um, and that

463
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: can be adapted to, you know, not having any clothing on.

464
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: But again it's kind of staying away from the genitals

465
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: and rust as well and focusing onjust temperature, touchure, and pressure.

466
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: I know, I keep saying it over and over again,

467
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: but that's what we want them to focus on, versus

468
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: trying to explore for pleasure or trying to have any

469
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: expectations that sex is going to occur after this. Really

470
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: just getting comfortable with touching and in the senses it

471
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: sounds like that could be really important. It sounds like

472
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 1: they could go a really long way in establishing trust

473
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 1: in the relationship without the expectation of sexual such absolutely,

474
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 1: because a lot of times folks who are having issues

475
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 1: with desire, they feel, you know, this expectation to perform

476
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 1: in a certain way, right, and so um, you know,

477
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: and there's a lack of bourbage right to talk about sex.

478
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 1: So engaging in the sense of focus exercise removes that pressure, right,

479
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: Because I also instruct people like, this should not be

480
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: an exercise in what you're talking to one another. I

481
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 1: want you to really focus on just those sensations. And

482
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 1: so clients might ask, well, well, what do I do

483
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: if I don't you know, like where I'm being touch

484
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,479
Speaker 1: or I really am enjoying that certain area that's being touched.

485
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: And that's where we instructs them to engage in what's

486
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: called handwriting. So that's either placing your hand on top

487
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: of or underneath your partners to either guide them away

488
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 1: from an area that feels uncomfortable or to invite them

489
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: to stay on an area that does feel comfortable. So

490
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: that helps take away this pressure to people say like

491
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: I don't know how to talk dirty or you know,

492
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 1: I don't know how to you know, share that I'm

493
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: really enjoying something. So taking the verbal part out can

494
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: be really really helpful. Okay, that sounds like it could

495
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: be helpful even outside of this activity, for sure, maybe

496
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: something that would be good for people who have trouble

497
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: initiating sex or things like that. Absolutely, you know, as

498
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: you were talking, it made me wonder if this might

499
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: also be helpful for people who struggle with sexual arousal disorder,

500
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: because I think a lot of times what happens is

501
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: that they may be afraid to even initiate any kind

502
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: of affection for fear that they're partner will expect something

503
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: more that is exactly correct, that is exactly correct. To

504
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: remove that idea of expectation of any sort and to

505
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: just focus on what is coming up, right, and during

506
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: the exercises, do you begin to learn that sex is

507
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: a natural function. It's not something that can be taught, right.

508
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: It's kind of like breathing that comes natural to us.

509
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: We might be able to teach people different breathing techniques,

510
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: but the basic kinds of breathing we're born with. Same

511
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: with sexual function, we're born with those you know, borrowing

512
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: any dysfunction. We're born with that as a natural function.

513
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: So touching for you know, exploration of the sensations. You're

514
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: going to begin to notice your body becoming aroused. What happens?

515
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: What do you need in order to have arousal or

516
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: desire come up? So we're moving that expectation there. So

517
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: how long might you be practicing since a focused techniques

518
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: with someone before you might see a difference in their

519
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: arousal states. Yeah, I think that, you know, definitely differs

520
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: from clients to clients. Um. I think that in the

521
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: first few weeks they begin to notice different areas of

522
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: their body that produce the feelings of arousal. Right, Like

523
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: I've had women coming like, oh my gosh, I didn't

524
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,959
Speaker 1: realize like the back of my thigh really you know,

525
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: you know, brings up these experiences for me, or brings

526
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: up the feeling of pleasure for me, or I really

527
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: you know, don't like it when you know the small

528
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: of my back is touched it, you know, So it

529
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: becomes an explorative exercise for them. Um. The whole course

530
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: of senseate focus therapy tends to last between four and

531
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: six weeks. It sounds like it's a pretty structure thing

532
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: that you're taking either the person or them with their

533
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: partner through. Yes. And the hardest part of it all

534
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: is that when they're engaging in this, I asked them

535
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: to refrain from having intercourse and people you tend to

536
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: get really upset there, like wait a minute, I'm coming

537
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: in here to heaven of course, and oh my goodness.

538
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: The partners are like, I'm not signing up for this,

539
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: but I tell them, you know, it's just like anything else.

540
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: Think back to when you first you know, we're having

541
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: sex with a partner that through real and anticipation and

542
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: you know, hoping that it will be tonight that you

543
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: finally get to have sex. Right, So it's building that anticipation.

544
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: It's like the longest four play ever, right, But it's

545
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: like that's what's needed to sort of rekindle desire and

546
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: to again remove the expectation that we're going to touch

547
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: and this is gonna lead to sex. So taking that

548
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: away knowing okay, we can't have sex allows the person

549
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: with the arousal disorder to feel more at ease and

550
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: more comfortable to engage in the exercise. So you're saying

551
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: that you take six off the table the entire time

552
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: they're working with you on this. Ye, so they're saying, okay,

553
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: we'll do with dr if is there for the next

554
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: six weeks, and then we'll see how it goes. Yeah.

555
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: And it's funny like people will come in like week

556
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: two or three like, all right, we gotta tell on

557
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: ourselves we have sex, you know. And so it's kind

558
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: of like, because it becomes this thing you're not supposed

559
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: to do, they want to do it right, and it's like, oh, okay,

560
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: now you get why we're having these instructions. Yeah. I

561
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: would imagine that this then allows for a great conversation

562
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: about what happened and how we might be able to

563
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: reconstruct that for the future. Exactly, got it? Got it?

564
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: I gotta read more about this. This sounds great. So,

565
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: Dr Po, what are some of your favorite resources that

566
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: you find yourself going to and recommending over and over again?

567
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely so, first and foremost, I think most sex there

568
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: visible swear by this book, Come as you are by

569
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: that Nagowsky. Right, it's just such a great book to

570
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: normalize sexuality and you know, to teach about sexuality. Um,

571
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: then anything by Barry McCarthy is awesome. I really recommend

572
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,719
Speaker 1: for kindling desire to my couples and women in particular. Um.

573
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: Also by Barry McCarthy and Emily car McCarthy. It's a

574
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: book called Sexual Awareness. Then when I find couples or

575
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: individuals who are coming in who maybe have never had

576
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: sex or have really just not had a really good

577
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: sexual education, I recommend the book the Guide to getting

578
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: it on. I mean it's a huge book, um, but

579
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: you can kind of flip through and you know, learn

580
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: about different techniques, learn about different sexual response cycle. So

581
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: it's really and it's it's written in the kind of

582
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: like a joking nature, so it's an easy, easy read.

583
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: And where can people find you online? Dr Pia? What's

584
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: your website as well as any social media handlers you

585
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: want to share? Yeah, so definitely follow me on Instagram

586
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: at sex dr Pia. And then the website for the

587
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: practice I'm a part of is Resilience Chicago dot com.

588
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: And of course all of that will be included in

589
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: the show notes so that people can find it easily.

590
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr Pia.

591
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me,

592
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for having this platform. I mean,

593
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: I know you hear it all the time, but it

594
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: has just really changed the game for therapy for black women.

595
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: I've seen so many more people coming in because of

596
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: your website, and so I just I have to give

597
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,479
Speaker 1: you big kudos to that. Thank you so much, thank you.

598
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I'm so thankful Dr Halleck was able

599
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: to share her expertise with us today. To find out

600
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,719
Speaker 1: more information about her practice, or to check out the

601
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: resources that she shared, visit the show notes at Therapy

602
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot Com slash Session one oh one.

603
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: Remember that if you're searching for a therapist in your area,

604
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: be sure to visit our therapist directory at Therapy for

605
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash directory, and be sure to

606
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: check out our online store at Therapy for Black Girls

607
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 1: dot com slash Shop. There you can find our guided

608
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: affirmation track, break up journal, or you can grab a

609
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls sweatshirt or T shirt. Thank you

610
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: all so much for joining me again this week. I

611
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: look forward to continue in this conversation with you all

612
00:32:44,480 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: real soon. Take it care, Okay. The