Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't know stories of things we simply
Speaker 1: don't know the answer to. Hello, and welcome to the
Speaker 1: podcast Thinking Sideways the podcast. Yeah yeah, I am Steve,
Speaker 1: of course, joined by Devin and Joe and Joe and
Speaker 1: Joe actually my name is Joe, not and Joe. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: well it's yeah, we've had this issue and once again
Speaker 1: this week we have another mystery that we're going to
Speaker 1: bring to yep. Yeah, it's a little bit. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: don't know if scary, but I was creepy, Yeah, creepy,
Speaker 1: creepy and weird stopping somebody who camps occasionally, you know,
Speaker 1: a little twisted me. I even can't buy myself occasionally,
Speaker 1: you know. Oh yeah, No, after researching this, I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure I have just come up with the reason that
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go camping anymore. And I don't
Speaker 1: like the cap. Well it's okay, you can go camping alone.
Speaker 1: You just can't go camping with your significant other. That
Speaker 1: seems to be the problem, This is true. Yeah, or
Speaker 1: you could just take a gun. Well, let's let's get
Speaker 1: into what we're gonna talk about today, which is the
Speaker 1: tubesock killer. Yes, I used I actually put it correctly
Speaker 1: because there's a mark at the end of this. It's
Speaker 1: not just a weird speech impediment or pattern or what
Speaker 1: what do you call that? So on September, the tub
Speaker 1: sock was discovered brutally murder. What's outside of no No,
Speaker 1: Now we're today Joe is goofing. But what we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about is a potential serial killer that is referred
Speaker 1: to as the tube Sock killer. This, this story suggestion
Speaker 1: a reginally came from Ash. So thanks for sending it
Speaker 1: in a long time ago. You set us by way
Speaker 1: of apology, you set us so many suggestions. We don't
Speaker 1: want your hog in the show that Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: The thing is with this one is is I I
Speaker 1: read it. I mean I read the original topic and
Speaker 1: then it started leading into so many things and this
Speaker 1: one grew quite rapidly on me. But let's talk about
Speaker 1: the first part of the story, which is what Ash
Speaker 1: sent in and suggested. Actually before we get into it,
Speaker 1: if you haven't figured it out yet, we are going
Speaker 1: to be talking about a potential serial killer. So there's
Speaker 1: gotta be some people getting killed murder, murder, murder, but
Speaker 1: a lot of stab stab stabbed. So if that's not
Speaker 1: your thing, maybe skip this one. Yeah, I know, we
Speaker 1: have a couple of people who say some people like
Speaker 1: stabbings and stuff. If that upset you or the kids
Speaker 1: are around, save it for later, or just don't listen.
Speaker 1: But here's our story. On the twelfth of December nine
Speaker 1: in Spanaway, Washington, which, for people who don't know, is
Speaker 1: about ten or twenty miles south of Tacoma, Washington, which
Speaker 1: is south of Seattle, just south, just south. Yeah, at
Speaker 1: this point they almost have grown together. On that day,
Speaker 1: December twelve, two year old Crystal Robertson was found wandering
Speaker 1: around alone on December twelve in a kmart. Police were called.
Speaker 1: She was taken to a local hospital and it was
Speaker 1: a few days before she was identified. And don't worry everybody,
Speaker 1: she was perfectly fine. But she was taken to the hospital.
Speaker 1: It was just a precautionary, precautionary. Yeah, they didn't know
Speaker 1: who she was, they didn't know what to do with it.
Speaker 1: Was like they were gonna put her in a holding cell. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so they well, they were taking care of her. Eventually,
Speaker 1: her grandparents were found an ideater, so she was returned
Speaker 1: to family. But the strange thing is what she said
Speaker 1: when she was asked where her parents were, because she said,
Speaker 1: and I quote, mommy is in the trees. That's all
Speaker 1: we've ever really heard from her. Crystal, she was too.
Speaker 1: I don't know if she she blocked it out. She
Speaker 1: she has made it quite clear over time that she
Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk about this story. No, no, which
Speaker 1: is totally understandable. But that's really the only quote we've
Speaker 1: got from her, and clear indication of potentially what might
Speaker 1: be going on. But it seems like she wasn't actually
Speaker 1: particularly traumatized. It does not appear that way. Her parents
Speaker 1: were a man named Michael Reamer and a woman named
Speaker 1: Diana Robertson. They were nowhere gonna be found. Reportedly, the
Speaker 1: family had gone into the woods in El Washington to
Speaker 1: look for a Christmas tree and to check the traps
Speaker 1: of Michael. I Michael had animal traps, is what I
Speaker 1: mean by traps, and I haven't been able to find
Speaker 1: anywhere specifically what it was he was trapping. I mean,
Speaker 1: I did some looking around, and there's beaver, fox, rabbits,
Speaker 1: and mink in that area, so he potentially could have been.
Speaker 1: Also yeats are there as well. He could have just
Speaker 1: been trapping for almost anything, just about anything. Michael was
Speaker 1: kind of a jerk. No, I mean, I presume that
Speaker 1: he was trapping for meat mostly, so you know kind
Speaker 1: of thing. Well, right, I read that he was a
Speaker 1: fur trapper. He was after their pelts, but he might
Speaker 1: have used to meat also. Yeah, yeah, either way, he
Speaker 1: had traps in the woods and that was the reason
Speaker 1: that he would be in the woods. I don't think
Speaker 1: he can sell Fox anymore, just as a new Fox.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know, it doesn't matter. Let's
Speaker 1: keep talking about this story. Sorry, it didn't mean the railroad.
Speaker 1: You're there in February. Oh is that the next place
Speaker 1: that we're at in this story. Yes, we moved forward,
Speaker 1: so we didn't know anything. They were gone, her parents
Speaker 1: were gone, I mean, but nobody knew where they were.
Speaker 1: They went into the woods, and then their daughter appeared
Speaker 1: at a kmar kind of surprising. Nobody noticed their truck. Well, well,
Speaker 1: their their truck was on an abandoned logging road, so
Speaker 1: that's why they wouldn't have found it. But we're getting
Speaker 1: a little ahead here. So again, this is February of six,
Speaker 1: and there's a man who's out walking his dog, in
Speaker 1: the area and he finds Diana's body. She's found lying
Speaker 1: on the ground next to their truck. She has she's
Speaker 1: been stabbed seventeen times. I believe she was stabbed in
Speaker 1: the chest and the torso is where where all of
Speaker 1: the world, Yes, angry guy, Yeah, it doesn't sound like
Speaker 1: a very happy person. Um. She also had a tube
Speaker 1: sock tied around her neck that had knots in it,
Speaker 1: and so like the tube sock was tied in knots
Speaker 1: and then tied around her neck like yes, I'm sorry
Speaker 1: to make this comparison, but like a rosary sort of
Speaker 1: situation kind of. I mean, I've seen a picture of
Speaker 1: it on her. I've seen what I believe is a
Speaker 1: real crime scene photo, not a re enactment. And there
Speaker 1: is there's the two ends of the sock are knotted
Speaker 1: up on the back of her neck, and then there's
Speaker 1: at least one, if not two other knots in the
Speaker 1: sock itself. Are they evenly spaced around or like more
Speaker 1: or they just like I've never I never saw a
Speaker 1: description of where the knots were. Okay, but you kind
Speaker 1: of saw more knots. Well, I saw the main knot
Speaker 1: at the back and then there's a description of it
Speaker 1: at least two not so I'm presuming one of those
Speaker 1: knots is the knot that they were tied together with,
Speaker 1: and then another somewhere else on it, but I don't
Speaker 1: know exactly where those would have been. Yeah, you really
Speaker 1: can't see him, and I only saw one picture and
Speaker 1: it was kind of low res. Yeah, it was it
Speaker 1: was hard to tell. Like I said, she was found
Speaker 1: next to their truck. There was blood found on the
Speaker 1: seat of the truck, but the police weren't able to
Speaker 1: determine whose blood it was. I mean, we got to
Speaker 1: remember it's a couple of months later, and this is
Speaker 1: so DNA analysis isn't available at the time, so we
Speaker 1: don't know who it belonged to. All they could confirm
Speaker 1: is that it was human blood. Now I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: out on a limb open and say that probably was
Speaker 1: Diana's blood. It's quite, it's quite it's quite. It's quite possible.
Speaker 1: But I've also seen stuff saying that this is still
Speaker 1: considered an active case, right, so they can't really talk,
Speaker 1: they can't really talk about it. And there's also the
Speaker 1: fact that there are reports that some DNA still exists
Speaker 1: and that that was being tested again, but that was
Speaker 1: from two thousand and eleven. I don't know whatever came
Speaker 1: of it. I can't find any information. Again, it's active
Speaker 1: ace technically, so they're not just gonna willy nilly call
Speaker 1: a press reports say we found this. So I don't
Speaker 1: know if that DNA is from the blood, if that
Speaker 1: DNA was recovered in the sock, I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you would assume, since it is an active case, that
Speaker 1: if they did have new evidence that would help them
Speaker 1: find the perpetrator of this crime, they would be going
Speaker 1: public with it. You would kind of assume that. But
Speaker 1: also we've assumed things like that in the past, and
Speaker 1: it's turned out to be not true sometimes on certain things. Whatever,
Speaker 1: it's funny how you have an active investigation you just
Speaker 1: don't tell everybody stuff that weird. Let's see what else
Speaker 1: was there? Okay. Also with the scene, there were shell
Speaker 1: casings found around the truck, but it's not clear from
Speaker 1: the things that I've read if those casings were from
Speaker 1: a gun that was fired when they were there or
Speaker 1: prior to their arrival. At the location. It's it's an
Speaker 1: abandoned logging road in the woods, it would be really
Speaker 1: hard to tell, especially cap months later. Yeah, this is true.
Speaker 1: I mean guys, people go out in the woods all
Speaker 1: the time and just blow up trees, just shoot for funds.
Speaker 1: So it's and just I know people who do it
Speaker 1: all the time and they just leave the casing. Not
Speaker 1: my problem. So we don't know. Yeah, shooters usually figure
Speaker 1: this some A shooter that comes along next after them
Speaker 1: is going to be a reloader and he'll pick it
Speaker 1: all up, which is actually also abscrimes. Now this is
Speaker 1: inside the truck. A Manila envelope was found and it's
Speaker 1: it's kind of a legal size, you know, you put
Speaker 1: eight and half eleven paper in it. It's a big
Speaker 1: envelope and handwritten on it is I Love you Diana.
Speaker 1: The police turned it over to the fbi'd have it analyzed.
Speaker 1: The handwriting that was you that's on it. According the FBI,
Speaker 1: it's inconclusive whose handwriting it is. They don't know if
Speaker 1: it's Michael's. According to Diana's mother's it is his handwriting,
Speaker 1: it would be without samples his mother it was Diana's mother.
Speaker 1: Diana's mother has been convinced forever that Michael did it,
Speaker 1: that he killed her and then beat feet and got
Speaker 1: out of there and just disappeared. So she she was
Speaker 1: convinced that it was his hand writing. Okay, but we
Speaker 1: we don't know that for sure. But you know, based
Speaker 1: on the fact that her body is there, his is not.
Speaker 1: He's the prime suspect. He's disappeared. He also had a
Speaker 1: bit of a temper the you know, there was things
Speaker 1: between them, There was domestic disputes, there was fights. She
Speaker 1: had put a restraining order on him at one point.
Speaker 1: So everybody's pretty sure that he had a fit of
Speaker 1: rage or whatever that it is exactly, and he killed her.
Speaker 1: And then of course it makes sense too that he
Speaker 1: would drop the kid off somewhere where the kid would
Speaker 1: be found and taken to the authorities and eventually reunited
Speaker 1: with her family. Because he's going to go on the run,
Speaker 1: he really can't take a two year old with him.
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's the case. I mean this
Speaker 1: this WEE can get into in theories a little bit,
Speaker 1: but I don't know that that's the case, because there
Speaker 1: there are some theories around him being the lone gunmen.
Speaker 1: So well, you know, I guess the other thing is
Speaker 1: one kind of thinks from her last name, the two
Speaker 1: year old last name. Gosh, what's her name? Yeah? From
Speaker 1: that and the fact that her mother and father didn't
Speaker 1: have the same last name, was that her biological father,
Speaker 1: it was? But they were not married, Okay, she took
Speaker 1: her mom's name. Well, yeah, I mean she she wasn't married,
Speaker 1: so naturally, what do you do? You give the kids
Speaker 1: your last name and she's two years old. They they're
Speaker 1: not married at this point. It's probably not in the
Speaker 1: four seable. They're having a lot of relationship issues. I
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not surprised, but I don't know that that.
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means except that he is
Speaker 1: the father. I do know that. Okay, he's her biological father. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it could go either way,
Speaker 1: that he would drop a kid off or he would
Speaker 1: not take the kid with Well, it's harder to be
Speaker 1: on the run with a two year old child, especially
Speaker 1: when amber alerts are a thing. Right, Well, but this
Speaker 1: is okay. But but the point is moot. This this
Speaker 1: little bit of debate is it's kind of moot because well,
Speaker 1: the case sat the way We've just talked about it
Speaker 1: for twenty some years in two thousand and eleven. March
Speaker 1: of two thousand eleven, two men were hiking in that area,
Speaker 1: the same place where Diana's body had been found. And
Speaker 1: this is, this is I don't quite get this, but
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go through it. One of them kicked
Speaker 1: over the lid of a vacuum cleaner. I don't know
Speaker 1: what that means, but I don't know either, and then
Speaker 1: went to kick what he thought was a rock underneath it.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't a rock. Was a piece of Michael's skull. Oh,
Speaker 1: I thought it the whole entire top skull. It's it
Speaker 1: wasn't the entire skull. It was a piece of his skull.
Speaker 1: They didn't find his entire skull. What they found at
Speaker 1: the site was a portion of his skull and eventually
Speaker 1: his jawbone, his rubber boots, and I think I think
Speaker 1: there was a belt maybe, But those were the only
Speaker 1: things of Michael that they found at that location. Well
Speaker 1: that's that's the question. And the other question is how
Speaker 1: did they not find him because it's a couple hundred
Speaker 1: yards essentially away stumbled across him, But well it is,
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of low scrub brush, So I can
Speaker 1: see how a body might be difficult to find several
Speaker 1: months later in the winter. Could be explainable that they
Speaker 1: didn't find it, But it's weird, super weird. They seem
Speaker 1: to have maybe not done a great thorough investigation. Possible,
Speaker 1: there's there's also speculation that and and we're not going
Speaker 1: to get into this in theory, so we just do
Speaker 1: it now, is that somebody killed them and took his
Speaker 1: body away and then brought it back after the investigation
Speaker 1: was finished. But to me, that seems a lot like
Speaker 1: a lot of work, especially since they just left the
Speaker 1: truck and Diana, Yeah, you know, it could be that
Speaker 1: they only found the head. It might be they whoever
Speaker 1: it was, cut his head off left the head there,
Speaker 1: and when you're looking for a body, it's easy to
Speaker 1: overlook ahead. And of course they didn't find any any
Speaker 1: other parts of his body. But I don't know why
Speaker 1: you'd leave the boots and belts. Yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't I have no idea. So it's potentially it's
Speaker 1: possible that he was decapitated. We don't know that for sure.
Speaker 1: I mean, or he could have sat there for a
Speaker 1: couple of years and rotted away and animals drug drug
Speaker 1: parts of the body slowly but surely away over the
Speaker 1: twenties some years, although again boots, rubber boots. Yeah, pulling
Speaker 1: feet out rubber boots is hard as an animal. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. But but the thing is, all I
Speaker 1: can confirm is that those were the articles of clothing
Speaker 1: that were found, and that part of a skull, and
Speaker 1: eventually the job oone of the job bone is how
Speaker 1: they identified him. You know, any kind of body sitting
Speaker 1: on the wilderness for that long, it's hard to never
Speaker 1: really tell if. Yeah, animals probably did drag it away,
Speaker 1: and they're pretty resourceful and yeah that's but yeah, there
Speaker 1: if there's a food source to um. Now, here's the thing.
Speaker 1: In the articles and stories about the skull being found,
Speaker 1: there's a guy, one of the guys who found in.
Speaker 1: His name is Phil Reynolds. He said that in the
Speaker 1: part of the skull that they found, there was a
Speaker 1: large hole in the temple. Well he had just killed
Speaker 1: kicked it. I The police completely denied that Michael was shot.
Speaker 1: They say, there's there's not a hole in that Ysa's
Speaker 1: skulls and I must have found a pretty complete, pretty
Speaker 1: complete skull. Yeah, yeah, well, I'm thinking it's not a
Speaker 1: complete skull, but it's got to be you know, like
Speaker 1: two or three of the plates and a little bit
Speaker 1: in the front. I don't I mean enough to have
Speaker 1: a temple. Yeah. Well, I mean, let's let's stop with
Speaker 1: the skull, because again I can't get a clear sense
Speaker 1: of exactly what it was it was found, but they
Speaker 1: seem to have a pretty definitive idea. The police did
Speaker 1: that he had not been shot in the head. I
Speaker 1: have read a quote from a local police that is
Speaker 1: that is true. But we're gonna stop for the moment
Speaker 1: with the murder of Michael and Diana, and we're going
Speaker 1: to move to the other part of the story that
Speaker 1: I eventually was led to in the research. The other
Speaker 1: part of the story is actually set prior to their
Speaker 1: disappearance and murder. On the tenth of August of which
Speaker 1: would have been three months. Three months before they went
Speaker 1: into the woods, a gentleman by the name of Stephen
Speaker 1: Harkins and his girlfriend Ruth Cooper left Tacoma, Washington, and
Speaker 1: they went to a wedding reception and then they were
Speaker 1: planning to go to Tuley Lake, which is in the
Speaker 1: Tacoma area. And they were going to go for a
Speaker 1: weekend of camping. It's really nice. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, It's
Speaker 1: August in Washington. It's one of the few nice times
Speaker 1: a year you could possibly go wrong. Yeah. Well that
Speaker 1: everything I've read it I've read about them is they
Speaker 1: were They were huge camping nuts. They love to be
Speaker 1: in the outdoors. If you see pictures of Stephen Harkins,
Speaker 1: he's cut this giant grizzly Adams beer. Of course he
Speaker 1: does even in the in the eighties, right mid eighties.
Speaker 1: That was like, maybe now it's not uncommon to know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you see that all the time he's here, But no,
Speaker 1: it's he was. He was definitely an outdoorsman. Well, they
Speaker 1: left on the tenth of August. On the August, someone
Speaker 1: came by their campsite and found Steven's body. He had
Speaker 1: he was in his sleeping bag and he was laying
Speaker 1: in the back of the truck and he had been
Speaker 1: shot in the forehead with a twenty two caliber gun
Speaker 1: that they've taken their dog. The dog was found dead,
Speaker 1: also shot in the head. Why does that bother me
Speaker 1: so much more? I'm like, oh, dude got shot in
Speaker 1: the head. Oh no, a dog, No, yeah, yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 1: both of both of those two were dead. Ruth wasn't
Speaker 1: there and she wouldn't be found until October twenty six,
Speaker 1: so we're again, we're talking a month later. Her body
Speaker 1: was several hundred yards away from Stevens. Again, it seems
Speaker 1: like maybe a really good search of the area maybe
Speaker 1: not happening. So I tried. I tried to Joe's trick,
Speaker 1: and I went on Google Maps because they give, uh,
Speaker 1: it's kind of a dead end where she was found
Speaker 1: near where they were camping, and it almost seems like
Speaker 1: they were nearer road. And then somebody took her across
Speaker 1: the road into the partial edges of a neighborhood and
Speaker 1: there was a weird little dead end road. But that's
Speaker 1: several hundred yards away, so they probably didn't bother to
Speaker 1: go into the neighborhood because nobody in the neighborhood probably
Speaker 1: reported anything. That's conjecture on my part. I can only
Speaker 1: admit this. Think about this several hundred yards that could
Speaker 1: be as much as say four yards, which is almost
Speaker 1: a quarter mile. So I mean, they're not going to
Speaker 1: search that bag of a radius, right, Well, it's difficult
Speaker 1: because you've got to remember When you do the search,
Speaker 1: you gotta search the entire three D and sixty degrees around.
Speaker 1: You can't go in one direction another crossing a road. Well,
Speaker 1: let's just rule that out. It's kind of an easy
Speaker 1: thing for the cops to do or search teams to do.
Speaker 1: But I don't know why. But yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: why she wasn't found. But let's talk about Ruth for
Speaker 1: a moment. She'd been decapitated. She had a sock tied
Speaker 1: around her neck. I've seen it's conflicting, seen reports that
Speaker 1: do and don't say that the sock had not in it.
Speaker 1: Reports on our little script here has quotes around it.
Speaker 1: So are we talking like things you read on the internet,
Speaker 1: or are we talking like I've read different police detective
Speaker 1: reports of these things, And the police detective reports aren't
Speaker 1: out there because technically it's an open case. So what
Speaker 1: I'm getting is I'm getting reports from reporters. There have been,
Speaker 1: you know, the people who try and commingle it together,
Speaker 1: and as we've always said, we kind of try and
Speaker 1: avoid some of that because artistic license takes over. But
Speaker 1: I've seen it mentioned and not mentioned, which makes me
Speaker 1: question it's validity. I guess for me, since this was
Speaker 1: the first right, technically it's the first set of murders,
Speaker 1: I would say since it was mentioned and not mentioned,
Speaker 1: it was it probably happened. Versus the second set of murderers.
Speaker 1: They were like, oh crap, that happened again. They're not
Speaker 1: necessarily hearkening back to this other thing. But you know,
Speaker 1: I also suspect that not of the reports on the
Speaker 1: lot that on Diana's murder said oh yeah, it was nodded.
Speaker 1: I think that it's probably fair to say that it
Speaker 1: was mentioned and not mentioned in both cases, but that
Speaker 1: it's more prevalent in the first case because people thought
Speaker 1: it was probably not super relevant. That's and that's that's
Speaker 1: potentially that'd be my conjecture. That's that's quite likely. I
Speaker 1: don't know again, you know, it's just what I was
Speaker 1: when you just read it. Yeah, yeah, because we don't
Speaker 1: have the official police reports. But what I do find
Speaker 1: weird is it seems to me that this whole thing
Speaker 1: you could say was based around some kind of robbery,
Speaker 1: except that her purse was found. Usually when I'm robbing people,
Speaker 1: I don't stop the decapit. Yeah, like tube soccer around
Speaker 1: their Yeah yeah. And one of the things I was
Speaker 1: not able to find an answer to is so she
Speaker 1: was decapitated tube soccer around her neck? Well, was it
Speaker 1: the part of the neck that was still attached to
Speaker 1: the head. I'm going to guess it's the part that's
Speaker 1: still attached to the body. I don't know. Sorry to
Speaker 1: like get a little grizzly here. I've never seen a
Speaker 1: decapitated body necessarily, so I don't know where it is
Speaker 1: that you naturally decapitate somebody on the body, like where
Speaker 1: the neck ends up. I think I don't know either.
Speaker 1: But I've thought about this as well. If you think
Speaker 1: about next year collar bone item, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: muscle there to sup but up high there's not. The
Speaker 1: muscles are much thinner. Blow your jaw bone and towards
Speaker 1: the back, so all you got you've got less muscle
Speaker 1: mass there, and you've got the skull to leverage against.
Speaker 1: I know that sounds terrible, but you think about if
Speaker 1: you've got a saul through something you need some leverage,
Speaker 1: you can work a knife against it. I'm probably now
Speaker 1: going to get arrested because somebody's gonna say you know that,
Speaker 1: But so like in that situation, then you would you
Speaker 1: would just guess that the tubestock would have to be
Speaker 1: around the lower neck. That's what I'm I'm I'm guessing. Yes.
Speaker 1: By the way, was it just a random hiker that
Speaker 1: found her body? Yeah? That must really sucks enough to
Speaker 1: find a body, but finding a headless body. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, I was going to make a joke about
Speaker 1: a tourniquet, but I will not. I wouldn't make that joke. Um, now, okay,
Speaker 1: so we said, let's do a little timeline bit here.
Speaker 1: We said that they left on the tenth of August
Speaker 1: and she was found on the six of October, So
Speaker 1: there's some time there, enough time for decomposition to take effect,
Speaker 1: that they take effect to set in enough that they
Speaker 1: couldn't determine how she died. All they could determine was
Speaker 1: the official cause of death was homicidal violence. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think that's fair. I mean, at the minimum violence. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, there's no way to tell if the
Speaker 1: head was sought off post mortem or not. I would
Speaker 1: not that long after, No, it seems like yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine decapitating alive person, at least not like
Speaker 1: an unconscious person. But I guess I also can't really
Speaker 1: necessarily imagine decapitating a person or even like a fish.
Speaker 1: I make my boyfriend do that. I like to fish,
Speaker 1: but like, say, you know, an animal like a squirrel. No,
Speaker 1: too much. So yeah, it just seems like it would
Speaker 1: be so much extra work to be like, oh God,
Speaker 1: you're still alive and you're fighting me. I guess you know.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, And this is where I get arrested. Right,
Speaker 1: too much work. I'm too lazy. I'm just to soccer head,
Speaker 1: you know. But yeah, alright, so let's let's let's go
Speaker 1: back to the story, and let's let's do a little
Speaker 1: summation of what we have in terms of the facts.
Speaker 1: We have four people, two couples, killed within four months
Speaker 1: of each other. They all died in a wooded area,
Speaker 1: and all of both sets of bodies were found within
Speaker 1: fifteen miles of each other then or about it's about
Speaker 1: about fifteen miles as the crow flies, I'm guessing. Yeah, one,
Speaker 1: possibly two people were decapitated and the and the possible
Speaker 1: is Michael. He may have been decapitated. Both of the
Speaker 1: women had tubes socks tied around their necks. The rest
Speaker 1: of the details of the killings, there's there's really a
Speaker 1: lot of inconsistencies. We've got one confirmed shooting and that's Stephen.
Speaker 1: I do have a source that I don't know how
Speaker 1: credible it is that's says that all four of them
Speaker 1: were shot in the head with a twenty two. It's
Speaker 1: one source I've seen that I didn't see that in
Speaker 1: other areas. There is, as usual, a lot of conflicting
Speaker 1: stuff out there and a lot of people making things up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's inescapable, how difficult it is. So
Speaker 1: we've we've got other Okay, what's the other details we have.
Speaker 1: We've got a confirmed stabbing. One couple apparently killed at
Speaker 1: night and I've heard conjecture on this, but I'm not positive.
Speaker 1: But Stephen harkins he's in a sleeping bag, which makes
Speaker 1: me think that it's nighttime. Yeah, I'll push back on
Speaker 1: that though. I mean, you go camping, you see in
Speaker 1: your sleeping bag a little longer. Especially, he was in
Speaker 1: the bed of his truck, right in the bed of
Speaker 1: the truck. It could have been warning. It could have
Speaker 1: been warning. It could have been early evening. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, depending on the I guess it was August.
Speaker 1: So the nights are a little shorter, certainly, but well,
Speaker 1: and then there's there's um Michael Raamer and Diana Robertson
Speaker 1: they if they went out to get a Christmas tree
Speaker 1: and check traps. I'm not thinking that they went out
Speaker 1: in the evening. It's the day, so there's been morning.
Speaker 1: But also I guess the only other thing I would
Speaker 1: say is that of our confirmed serial killers that we've
Speaker 1: ever talked about, our researched or privately, you know, been
Speaker 1: fascinating obsessed with you. Yeah, I don't know that. Oh
Speaker 1: and all of them were killed at exactly five oh
Speaker 1: five pm. You know that's not necessarily a thing, particularly
Speaker 1: when you're talking about wilderness killings. No, No, that's you know,
Speaker 1: the guys who go out and attack prostitutes. That's usually
Speaker 1: done at night because that's when the trade is active.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean it may not make it may
Speaker 1: be a useless detail to focus on them at the
Speaker 1: time of day. I I completely understand that, Yeah, these
Speaker 1: are probably opportunistic crimes, quite likely. Here here we go,
Speaker 1: We've got a couple of other things that I've noted here. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's this is terrible, but it's unclear if the person
Speaker 1: who killed them had sex with the women because their
Speaker 1: months have gone by, that's not going to be evident anymore.
Speaker 1: On the scene photo of Diana, she had her clothes,
Speaker 1: she had her clothes. Yeah, but let's I mean again,
Speaker 1: in fairness, sorry, I'm pushing back on so many of
Speaker 1: these things. Sexual deviance doesn't necessarily mean that you have
Speaker 1: to have sex person to gain sexual pleasure from the
Speaker 1: thing that you're doing to that person. Particularly, right if
Speaker 1: you're like, if your ritual is tying a tied tube
Speaker 1: sock around somebody's neck, it doesn't mean you have to
Speaker 1: actually have sex with that person to gain the pleasure
Speaker 1: from it. And even it doesn't have to be sexual deviance.
Speaker 1: It could just be psychopathic deviance that you gain pleasure
Speaker 1: from that act, right, Yeah. No. The the other thing
Speaker 1: I want to talk about real briefly is speculation. Is
Speaker 1: speculation that I've seen about the tube sock itself. So
Speaker 1: the tube sock, we haven't really described it, but it's
Speaker 1: your well, it's your standards eighties tubes sock. It's like
Speaker 1: the calf height, it's kind of gets you white. It's
Speaker 1: got a couple of color. I think there are blue stripes,
Speaker 1: you know, like you would see in what was that
Speaker 1: Will Ferrell basketball movie and they were all wearing the
Speaker 1: giant tall socks. I mean it's that kind of sock, big, huge,
Speaker 1: with big white colored band socks. Yes, yeah, but the knots,
Speaker 1: the knots are speculated to have been a form of control.
Speaker 1: So if you've got something tied around someone's neck and
Speaker 1: it's got a couple of knots on it, when you
Speaker 1: pull on it, it's gonna push on the windpipe, it's
Speaker 1: gonna restrict them. Even where it's kind of like a
Speaker 1: dog color, like a choke chain on a dog that
Speaker 1: kept him alive for a while. Yeah, yeah, it's possible.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know that the tooth sock is
Speaker 1: the weird element in both of these, particularly because it's
Speaker 1: it happened twice, yes, within you know, within a couple
Speaker 1: of months, in the same kind of area. That is
Speaker 1: the weird part. And yeah, that and the like you know,
Speaker 1: a two year old child saying, mommy's in the trees.
Speaker 1: But I think the tubesock thing is it's worth mentioning.
Speaker 1: And I think that once we get into theories, it
Speaker 1: can knock a lot of theories out, it does it
Speaker 1: does dash some that will say that. But but this thing,
Speaker 1: this story, when you put these two couples together and
Speaker 1: what happened to them, it lights up everybody to the
Speaker 1: fact that there it's got to be a serial killer.
Speaker 1: And said serial killer. Should probably talk about the theories
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of them based around serial killers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's hard. Serial things are hard. Do you think he
Speaker 1: only had one pair of socks and then he went
Speaker 1: on serial killing without the socks? He just had the
Speaker 1: one pair of tubes socks out after Well, I guess
Speaker 1: I have to stop back to the store. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure you've experienced this when you go back for something
Speaker 1: that you really like and it discontinued. I got to
Speaker 1: become the panty host murderer. You two were so weird. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's uh, let's let's go into our first theory. First
Speaker 1: theory is that Michael Reemer did it all dumb. Sorry
Speaker 1: this one, it's completely circumstantial to me, but we're going
Speaker 1: to run through it anyway. The theory is that Michael,
Speaker 1: who had a violent streak and had a reason to
Speaker 1: go into the woods, which was to check his traps,
Speaker 1: came across Stephen and Ruth and killed him because they
Speaker 1: made him mad for some reason. And then several months later, um,
Speaker 1: he goes to the woods with a Diana and either
Speaker 1: in another fit of rage or out of guilt, decides
Speaker 1: that he's got to kill her too. Now he we
Speaker 1: briefly touched on his violence, So I talked about there
Speaker 1: was the restraining order. Like one thing I want to
Speaker 1: I want to bring up has been you know, he said, Well, guys,
Speaker 1: guy's got a temper. He yells or he flails his
Speaker 1: hands around. No, this guy like at one point was
Speaker 1: having an argument through the door, broke the door down,
Speaker 1: grabbed Diana and rubbed her face in the carpet I'm
Speaker 1: guessing giving her a severe carpet berth other things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he wasn't exactly the sweetest man in the world.
Speaker 1: So I guess the question for me on that is
Speaker 1: was his rage confined to kind of domestic disputes. Was
Speaker 1: it that things in his relationships set him off or
Speaker 1: was he just easily set off? You know, were there
Speaker 1: instances of road rage, were getting enough work or anything
Speaker 1: like that, Because there are some guys who are just
Speaker 1: like angry dudes and they just get mad at everything.
Speaker 1: But there are also some people, not just guys that
Speaker 1: would be unfair, but there are people who in their
Speaker 1: relationship become that kind of angry, horrible person, and you
Speaker 1: kind of assume, at least I assume that unless the
Speaker 1: only victim of them is their partner, partner, that it.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't just like that. Yeah, you don't
Speaker 1: just like walk out and find to two people camping
Speaker 1: and suddenly kill them. Yeah. I tell you. One thing
Speaker 1: that murderers, almost all murders have in common is that
Speaker 1: they have prior fel any convictions for violent offenses? Did
Speaker 1: he did, Michael Reen, were have any any convictions for anything?
Speaker 1: I couldn't find anything about criminal. I couldn't find anything
Speaker 1: about whether what Devon was asking about. I couldn't find
Speaker 1: out if he just had domestic anger issues, you know,
Speaker 1: relationship issues, or if it was a wider go Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't. I never saw any of that. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think that people are putting forth and Michael did it
Speaker 1: theory would probably be able to come up with something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you would think so, yeah, yeah, but but but this
Speaker 1: theory goes that, like I said, he finds Stephen and
Speaker 1: Ruth and he kills him, which several months later, he
Speaker 1: goes back into the woods, He kills Diana, takes the girl,
Speaker 1: the daughter Crystal, back to the kmart, then drives back out,
Speaker 1: wanders away, and then kills himself. And he doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: have to shoot himself, if you think about it, If
Speaker 1: he cuts his this is going to be kind of gross.
Speaker 1: But if he's a couple hundred yards away and he
Speaker 1: kneels down and he cuts his wrists and he chucks
Speaker 1: the knife, a knife is not going to be found
Speaker 1: next to his remains, but his head may not have
Speaker 1: originally been where his skull was found either. That's a
Speaker 1: whole lot of conjections. I completely agree with that, but
Speaker 1: you know, that's that's the way this theory goes. And
Speaker 1: I've just got I got a run with you. Do
Speaker 1: you have to say it? But I think it's dumb,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you know, that's a whole lot
Speaker 1: of remorse for somebody to have, for for a psychopathic
Speaker 1: as he would have had to have been to actually
Speaker 1: do these things. You know, it's Yeah, I don't I
Speaker 1: just don't buy it. No, I I think that it's
Speaker 1: it's done a whole lot of water for me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was unlikely. Yeah, let's let's move to the next theory.
Speaker 1: Theory number two is that the killings were unrelated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I have a hard time with this one.
Speaker 1: But but here's how this goes. Is that the theory
Speaker 1: is that Stephen and Ruth were not killed by the
Speaker 1: same person who killed Michael and Diana, and instead they
Speaker 1: were complete killed by completely different individuals. And the tubesck
Speaker 1: is a giant coincidence. Well, you know, actually in favor
Speaker 1: of the series. Tube socks were hugely popular at that time.
Speaker 1: People still we actually I don't know if they were
Speaker 1: they in the eighties, Yeah, they were, Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: kind of But I think that the fact that you
Speaker 1: would not them and tie them around a woman's neck
Speaker 1: in the same kind of area as the coincidence is
Speaker 1: also super duck coincidence. But let's let's run down this
Speaker 1: as we do so. Stephen Harkins was at the time
Speaker 1: apparently involved in a dispute with another man over guessing
Speaker 1: it's paying for repairs to his hardy because it's hardly
Speaker 1: had been damnaged. Stevens Harley. Steven's Hartley is from what
Speaker 1: I gathered, Yeah, it sounds like Stephen was actually a biker, right,
Speaker 1: I Harley doesn't mean that he was a biker. I
Speaker 1: heard from another source that he was. He actually was
Speaker 1: a biker. That doesn't necessarily mean he's in a gang.
Speaker 1: You know, a gang biker? No, No, you're the guy
Speaker 1: who likes your motorcycle. But if you remember when I
Speaker 1: was originally talking about their murder, in the day they disappeared,
Speaker 1: they had gone to a wedding reception before heading out camping.
Speaker 1: The guy that Stephen was having this dispute with he
Speaker 1: showed up at the reception shortly after they left, and
Speaker 1: people have said he was hot to find Stephen and
Speaker 1: he wanted to have a confrontation over this this money
Speaker 1: bit about damage to the bike. Well, if we if
Speaker 1: we follow that logic, it is possible that that person
Speaker 1: could have talked to other people, found out where they
Speaker 1: were going to go camping, followed them, and then killed
Speaker 1: the couple. Yeah. Yeah, although I guess the argument against
Speaker 1: that would be that the vengeance and anger is mostly
Speaker 1: towards Stephen, right, and so why killed Ruth and the dog?
Speaker 1: Well or so brutally right that the brutality would be
Speaker 1: funnel towards Stephen, not through Diana or sorry Ruth and
Speaker 1: the dog well or the dog even got off the easiest. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the question, right is that is if it was
Speaker 1: this guy that did it, you would think that his anger,
Speaker 1: he would want to torture that person more. He would
Speaker 1: be angry at that person that would be the person
Speaker 1: he wanted to you know, affect, unless he would have
Speaker 1: made him watch the torture of Ruth. But that seems
Speaker 1: unlikely because he was in a sleeping bed. Maybe that
Speaker 1: was it. You stay with the gun and shoots a
Speaker 1: dog says, you stay in your sleeping bag while I
Speaker 1: saw your girlfriend's head off and then like ft away.
Speaker 1: Though like it's not it's not like it happened right there.
Speaker 1: There is that. I mean, I'm not fun. I don't
Speaker 1: know that the problem with this theory is this guy
Speaker 1: whose name I don't have. I found his name on
Speaker 1: one one place and then immediately lost. And that's also
Speaker 1: not enough for me, the one place name thing. But
Speaker 1: but the thing is, the police track this guy now
Speaker 1: and they investigated him. They there wasn't any evidence or
Speaker 1: enough evidence to link him to the murder of Stephen
Speaker 1: and Rude. That's probably why you can't find his name,
Speaker 1: you know, be suppresed they let him go. But but
Speaker 1: according to this theory, if if we then moved back
Speaker 1: to Michael and Diana, they were just in the wrong
Speaker 1: place at the wrong time, and some other random person
Speaker 1: killed him for some other random reason, and the tuck
Speaker 1: thing and again the dupe stop. As they said at
Speaker 1: the top of this is the giant coincidence, and it is.
Speaker 1: And the thing about it is is that, of course
Speaker 1: it couldn't have been a copycat incident unless the killer
Speaker 1: was himself a cop. Do I had access to police
Speaker 1: face because the police didn't publicize the fact that there
Speaker 1: was a tubesock involved with the original murder? Correct? And
Speaker 1: so yeah, so do you have that inlisted theories here? Cop? No? No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I don't. I hadn't even thought about the fact that
Speaker 1: it could have been a cop doing a copycat killing
Speaker 1: for some personal vendelities political. But I feel suddenly like
Speaker 1: we're on an episode of Castle where we're just making stuff.
Speaker 1: Well no, but I mean, you know, not to get
Speaker 1: like crazy or whatever. But if recent events have shown nothing,
Speaker 1: it's that many cops are kind of crazy people. So uh,
Speaker 1: it's not so far to stretch the imagination that it
Speaker 1: could have been a cop who knew about the first
Speaker 1: murder and or somebody or somebody with access to police records.
Speaker 1: And I know a lot of reporters bribe policemen, but
Speaker 1: not in Washington. Yeah. Yeah, so you know, it's not
Speaker 1: one of your theories. We are not going to keep
Speaker 1: going on that. But I think it's also not so
Speaker 1: far out of reach. It's completely I'm not gonna I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna swat it down immediately. This this particular theory, though,
Speaker 1: brings out the creepiest thing about this story. And now
Speaker 1: we talked about this a little bit in the beginning,
Speaker 1: but who took the little girl to the freaking kmart?
Speaker 1: That that that, by far is the weirdest thing. It
Speaker 1: creached me out more than the fact that they cut
Speaker 1: off Ruth's head. Yeah. Well, I think the really creepy
Speaker 1: part about that isn't necessarily that somebody took her there.
Speaker 1: It's that like she was too and two year olds
Speaker 1: can tell, you know, they she should have been able
Speaker 1: to say, oh it was my or it was a stranger.
Speaker 1: And the fact that nobody pushed her and nobody said
Speaker 1: but no, for real, we need to know rocky beer,
Speaker 1: or there wasn't any kind of CCTV of the parking lot,
Speaker 1: because even in you know, the eighties, that was a thing. No, no,
Speaker 1: it was not often. It was on a loop. But
Speaker 1: if you find a two year old wandering around your store,
Speaker 1: you're gonna like search that stuff. Especially for a large
Speaker 1: chain like Kmart. It's one thing to say, Okay, this
Speaker 1: one tiny shop in Portland didn't have it, but it's
Speaker 1: a large chain like Hamart, they're going to have that stuff.
Speaker 1: Even in the eighties, she's a two year old girl.
Speaker 1: They found her wandering around and nobody's doing anything about that.
Speaker 1: They're just like it was under the hospital and accept
Speaker 1: the fact that the only thing she's ever said is
Speaker 1: mommy's in the trees. No, you can't stop there, you
Speaker 1: can't stop there. I am surprised that they must have
Speaker 1: asked her. Maybe they couldn't get any coherent answer out
Speaker 1: of her at age two, and I guess that's a
Speaker 1: lot to expect. But just who brought you here? Did
Speaker 1: mommy bring you here? Did daddy bring you here? Did
Speaker 1: somebody else bring you here? Yeah? Who brought you here?
Speaker 1: What did he look like? Even if she says, right, oh,
Speaker 1: he looked like a spaghetti monster with green ears, like
Speaker 1: you can make that into something, thank you. But it's possible, right,
Speaker 1: It's possible that it's also possible, now that I've gone
Speaker 1: on this tangent, that she actually did say all that
Speaker 1: stuff and that the police are can to you to
Speaker 1: suppress it for whatever reason is because yeah, um, but
Speaker 1: it seems to me that if she had actually witnessed
Speaker 1: her parents being murdered, that she would have been in
Speaker 1: pretty bad I don't think she did. I don't think
Speaker 1: she did at all. I don't think she did. I
Speaker 1: think I don't. I think that this guy, assuming the killer,
Speaker 1: took her there, must have said She's like, where's mommy
Speaker 1: and daddy? And he's like, oh, you know, I'm going
Speaker 1: to take you and see them, and he gives her
Speaker 1: a piece of candy because you know, when you're when
Speaker 1: you're at that age and somebody somebody hands you a
Speaker 1: candy bar, I mean that's like they're they're golden, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the best thing ever, or you know, she said, It's
Speaker 1: possible also, particularly if if Michael was abusing Diana, Crystal
Speaker 1: would have been around, she would have seen that. It's
Speaker 1: possible that somebody said, oh, mommy and daddy are fighting,
Speaker 1: I'm going to take you someplace nice and buy you
Speaker 1: a toy, and then you know, walked away from her,
Speaker 1: or uh, you know, where's mommy and daddy? Oh, mommy's
Speaker 1: in the trees, and I'm gonna take you to the
Speaker 1: toy store to get you a barbie, or here's some candy,
Speaker 1: or you know, it's not it's not so hard to
Speaker 1: bribe two year olds for things, especially if they come
Speaker 1: from are quite especially if they come from what sounds
Speaker 1: like a really, really horrible homelie. It was a little
Speaker 1: bit um. But also I think that it's not too
Speaker 1: much to expect that you could ask a two year
Speaker 1: old who brought you here and they could tell you
Speaker 1: that's not that's not. I don't think so either. One
Speaker 1: of the One of the things about the Kmar, though,
Speaker 1: is that I do believe the killer was from the
Speaker 1: area and familiar with it because of the Kmar, because
Speaker 1: it was the closest big box store where he could
Speaker 1: dump the kid off off anonymously to the murder side.
Speaker 1: It was. Yeah, so I'm suspecting he's from the area
Speaker 1: or she or he and she that might be why
Speaker 1: the kid is alive. Is perhaps the perhaps a female
Speaker 1: half of the killer couple really wasn't cool with killing
Speaker 1: a two year old girl. We wow, this really went
Speaker 1: for this is okay, I'm just gonna say this right now.
Speaker 1: Is this? This is the hard part with this cases
Speaker 1: that they're so many things and I went down so
Speaker 1: many rabbit holes. I started going down the serial killer path,
Speaker 1: which really it took me a long time to get
Speaker 1: out of there. It's kind of funny. I'm at home,
Speaker 1: I've researched the heck out of this story. That my
Speaker 1: fiance comes home, we're having a conversation. She walks into
Speaker 1: the kitchen. She comes back and I'm on the laptop
Speaker 1: and she just looks over my shoulders goes and you're
Speaker 1: googling serial killers again. That's that's how far down it's.
Speaker 1: It's just like this thing is just so I can
Speaker 1: want up you on this. I was doing research on
Speaker 1: this on the airplane. So I'm sitting next to a
Speaker 1: stranger on my let iPad going tupsock killer murders, into coma, washes,
Speaker 1: how to decomposition of bodies, and you know this person
Speaker 1: sitting next to me going can I yeah, well, I
Speaker 1: mean that's part of the job, right, it is. It is. Well,
Speaker 1: let's let's go to this would be theory number three.
Speaker 1: The theory runs that there is a man named Joseph
Speaker 1: Burgess who is responsible for this. Okay, that's credible some ways,
Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about Let's talk about him. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about Joe. Joseph headed him. Let's keep talking about Joe.
Speaker 1: So Joe, Yeah, I had a lot of two sucks.
Speaker 1: So Burges headed into the wilds, and by wilds, I
Speaker 1: mean Canada in to avoid the draft. You left country
Speaker 1: to dodge the draft. I don't know anybody who's done that. Nope.
Speaker 1: But he was a bit of an outdoorsman, and he
Speaker 1: actually did go into the woods to not come back
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two, so four years later in Anada,
Speaker 1: he just said, well, that's it. I can't take it.
Speaker 1: I'm getting out of here. And he was in the
Speaker 1: woods until two thousand and nine when he died. Out
Speaker 1: of society. That except for when he come to cabins
Speaker 1: and break into him and steal stuff. That because well
Speaker 1: he's trying to survive. Yeah, you gotta get some extra stuff. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: when he first left society back in seventy two. He
Speaker 1: was known to have a twenty two caliber rifle and
Speaker 1: considered himself, for Brad, to be quite the marksman winds
Speaker 1: his Uh. He's known to have killed some people, were
Speaker 1: believed to have killed some people, I should say, but
Speaker 1: his m O. The only similarity is the shootings tube
Speaker 1: socks were never used. If he did that, it was
Speaker 1: a random thing, and then he just didn't repeat it again.
Speaker 1: He was a member of what is called the fanatical Church,
Speaker 1: and I use that because that's the way I've seen
Speaker 1: it refer to in a number of places. But that
Speaker 1: church was called Children of God, the Family International, and
Speaker 1: they believe, and he believed. I should say that he
Speaker 1: was on a mission directly from God, and that appears
Speaker 1: to have been his motivation for killing people. Have you
Speaker 1: read the book about these people? No, I haven't. The Family.
Speaker 1: I have it. I'll let you borrow it. Okay. It's fascinating,
Speaker 1: you know, since we have some people who like conspiracy theories,
Speaker 1: go read that book, The Family. The Family. It's just
Speaker 1: called the Family, and it's an investigative report about this group,
Speaker 1: the Children of God, the Family International, the Family of Love,
Speaker 1: the family as it pertains to the U. S. Government.
Speaker 1: It's awesome read it. Okay, Burgess is part of that
Speaker 1: church yea or group group? Yeah. I think it sort
Speaker 1: of fell out action. He he had some very strong
Speaker 1: views and like I said, he believed he was on
Speaker 1: a mission from God. And one of the things that
Speaker 1: he I don't know where this comes from, I'll be
Speaker 1: honest with you, have seen it said, but I don't
Speaker 1: know where it came from, is that he was obsessed
Speaker 1: with and disgusted by unwed couples a k a. People
Speaker 1: having sex that aren't in a marriage, couples without the
Speaker 1: benefit of marriage. Yes, he didn't like that. And he
Speaker 1: traveled up and down the western coastline from he stayed
Speaker 1: in the States after he left Canada. From what we
Speaker 1: can kind of tell, I mean, the guys in the
Speaker 1: freaking woods, he's not going to just check it. It's
Speaker 1: hard to say exactly where he was, but it sounds
Speaker 1: like he went north to south, from the south tip
Speaker 1: of California to the north tip of Washington, just kind
Speaker 1: of traveling back and forth on the way. I also,
Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting that people say, oh, yeah, he
Speaker 1: broke into he broke into our cabin, Like, did they
Speaker 1: have footage? Did they see him? How do they know?
Speaker 1: Were they there? That's that's the hard Did you just
Speaker 1: assume it was the Barefoot Bandit? Like, what's going on? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can't remember was it the Barefoot Bandit is that
Speaker 1: what they called him? No, that he had a nickname,
Speaker 1: and I can't remember what the bandit was really recent? Okay,
Speaker 1: this guy, I can't remember what they called him, but
Speaker 1: but he had a nickname, and they were because he
Speaker 1: kept hitting the same ones over and over they did,
Speaker 1: so they were pretty sure the same guy, and they
Speaker 1: they believe it was him. Makes sense, but but there's
Speaker 1: just there's some things that make me really question if
Speaker 1: it's him. According to reports, and again I don't know
Speaker 1: how valid this is because the guys just traveling around.
Speaker 1: He was in Arizona at the time that the murders
Speaker 1: were committed, and Arizona was the place where all the
Speaker 1: cabin breakings were taking place. That's where a lot of Yeah,
Speaker 1: he evidently upgraded guns before five. He went from a
Speaker 1: twenty two to a forty five. And you know, actually
Speaker 1: I read that when I actually when he died, he
Speaker 1: didn't just die, he was shot to death by the police.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't the police, it was off duty police officers. Okay,
Speaker 1: but anyway, he he was found in hit to have
Speaker 1: his possession then not a forty five but a three
Speaker 1: fifty seven magnum revolver. Oh yeah, and the revolver was
Speaker 1: originally sold to a guy who had disappeared, so probably
Speaker 1: another one of his victim got it. With the way
Speaker 1: he went down, he he I think he got cop
Speaker 1: breaking into a place, and it was a man and
Speaker 1: a woman. I think they were off duty cops. They
Speaker 1: might not have been, but I think they were. Uh,
Speaker 1: they exchanged fire. He shoots the male cop in the
Speaker 1: leg after having been shot himself. So as he gets shot,
Speaker 1: he's going down, he's still firing rounds hit this cop.
Speaker 1: The other the lady cop didn't know how to use
Speaker 1: the gun that she had. Well, it was it was
Speaker 1: something to do with I think it was. Is it.
Speaker 1: There's a single action and a double action, Is that correct, Joe?
Speaker 1: She just though she thought a single action, she didn't
Speaker 1: know how to use it and it was a double action.
Speaker 1: So the cop who had been shot grabbed the gun
Speaker 1: from her and then kills Burgess and then later dies
Speaker 1: himself like a hail of bullets. The story probably the reverse.
Speaker 1: So if you think if you think something as a
Speaker 1: as a single action, that means you cock the hammer
Speaker 1: a single action, you have to cock every time. She
Speaker 1: probably had a single action revolver thinking it was a
Speaker 1: double action, not realizing the trigger. You got to cock
Speaker 1: the hammer on action. That's what it was, but it was.
Speaker 1: It was a crazy scenario, but that's that's how he died.
Speaker 1: The There's one other thing about him that I have
Speaker 1: I've read that again, I can't corroborate anywhere else, saying
Speaker 1: that at the time of the murders he was in
Speaker 1: jail in California. That having been said, I again, I'm said,
Speaker 1: the guy's not checking in. We don't know exactly where
Speaker 1: he is. So it's hard to say if he was
Speaker 1: responsible for these two double murders. That's hard. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: would say it's possible because one of the things that
Speaker 1: when you want a upgraded two at three fifty seven,
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean he through is twenty two away. Oh absolutely,
Speaker 1: no rifle actually is a murder. Weabin in the woods
Speaker 1: makes a lot more sense because much quieter, easier to
Speaker 1: get AMMO for it weighs a lot less. Yeah, so,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it could have been him. We belabored
Speaker 1: him enough. We're gonna go to number four. So, by
Speaker 1: the way, the guy was ugly. I don't know if
Speaker 1: he saw pictures of him, he was he was scary, like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I don't know. Look look him up. He's
Speaker 1: a burgess. Is a crazy looking, bearded, screwy mountain man.
Speaker 1: I didn't ever want to meet him. But next theory
Speaker 1: is that the killings were done by a person and
Speaker 1: who had a thing to use a tube sock, and
Speaker 1: we just don't know who they are. So there there
Speaker 1: are a huge string of killings of people hiking and
Speaker 1: camping up and down the western coast of the United
Speaker 1: States out there getting killed. Yeah, and it's it's before
Speaker 1: these folks died and well after, I mean recently is
Speaker 1: I think two years ago there was another one. I've
Speaker 1: seen maps to try and connect them, and if they
Speaker 1: truly are connected, it's like you said, it's scary, but
Speaker 1: it's also a little strange because again the socks never
Speaker 1: make an appearance again. Um, to travel that much ground,
Speaker 1: it's it's fair distances to suddenly go like I've seen
Speaker 1: one of the maps, and it jumps from you know,
Speaker 1: from northern Washington to southern California and then back up
Speaker 1: to northern Oregon like this, this is yours distances to
Speaker 1: be traveling in how much time? Though? If it's I
Speaker 1: can't imagine there's just one killer in weeks. But it
Speaker 1: just seems like, you know why, I mean, I guess
Speaker 1: it could be a trucker, but why would truckers be
Speaker 1: out on campsites and you think trucks would be But
Speaker 1: I mean, well, but if you're it's hard to it's
Speaker 1: hard to wrap my brain around. I guess, like the
Speaker 1: rail lines is pretty like if you're hopping rail cars, right,
Speaker 1: if you're homeless or vagrant, or maybe you've got a car,
Speaker 1: or maybe you have a car and you're driving. But
Speaker 1: that does seem it seems weird that you would travel
Speaker 1: that far up and down, back and forth unless you
Speaker 1: were like train hopping and that was kind of where
Speaker 1: you were living. Right If you were just like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get in my car and drive to
Speaker 1: California and then kill some people and then drive up
Speaker 1: to Washington and kills the more people, you know, that's
Speaker 1: that's a little less sketchy, but nobody nobody's claiming. I
Speaker 1: don't seriously though, that all of these murders all down
Speaker 1: the coast the same person. There are people who are
Speaker 1: trying to make connections. I will say that, but nobody
Speaker 1: seriously says they're all connected. It just random to be
Speaker 1: all connected. And let's face it, there's no shortage of
Speaker 1: serial killers. There's no reason that one poor Harry it
Speaker 1: overworks serial killer has to be doing all of this.
Speaker 1: So so the thing is, with all of these, all
Speaker 1: of these murders up and down the coast, Like I
Speaker 1: said before, the tube sock never shows up. Maybe it
Speaker 1: was a tool of convenience and the two murders, I
Speaker 1: don't know, but it doesn't come up. You know, there's
Speaker 1: there's people that I've looked at that I've tried to
Speaker 1: pin this on that I couldn't. Israel Keys was one
Speaker 1: of the ones that I wanted depended on, except it
Speaker 1: turns out he's way too young. He'd have been eight
Speaker 1: years old at the time of the murders. That doesn't work,
Speaker 1: and you didn't find anything that could have escalated from
Speaker 1: the tube Sockmarer is right, I mean you that that
Speaker 1: that's an elementary tool. I looked at people who shot
Speaker 1: or strangled their victims, and we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: some serial killers that could possibly be it. But I
Speaker 1: never found a wrong link. And serial killers don't tend
Speaker 1: to change their m O. So you would think that
Speaker 1: those two factors, the strangling and the shooting, would have
Speaker 1: ast Yes, regardless of the sock, may have used a
Speaker 1: rope or whatever, but but that that way to go
Speaker 1: about it. Serial killers do tend to evolve. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: there there's probably some smart ones at you actually changed
Speaker 1: their all over the place. Oh god, that's scary to
Speaker 1: think about it. It is really the scariest part about it.
Speaker 1: As a white female, I don't want a gun in
Speaker 1: a grenade with you. So that we're going to move
Speaker 1: to our next theory, and this is this is loosely
Speaker 1: tied to the last two. There's a guy who's sometimes
Speaker 1: he's called the Mountain Man. You'll hear him called the
Speaker 1: Elbs serial killer or the Northwest serial killer in the
Speaker 1: Cascadia serial Killer. I don't know if I don't know
Speaker 1: if I see that, okay, making it okay, This is
Speaker 1: making reference to a serial killer that is believed to
Speaker 1: be operating in the range of northwestern Oregon up to
Speaker 1: the Tacoma Seattle area, and there's there's been a couple
Speaker 1: of reports that have come across about a strange mountain
Speaker 1: man who just comes out of the woods and he's
Speaker 1: got a twenty two rifle and maybe another gun on him,
Speaker 1: and he's really strange and he's really weird, and he
Speaker 1: gives people the creeps and he's you know, he's he's
Speaker 1: They think that he potentially could be the person, and
Speaker 1: that he's territorial for where he's at. So he stumbles
Speaker 1: across somebody in his area doing something he doesn't like
Speaker 1: and decides that's it. I'm gonna hunt you down and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill you like pray, and that's what he does.
Speaker 1: I don't know that that this person actually exists. I mean,
Speaker 1: it could just be a random weirdo that somebody that
Speaker 1: different people have bumped into, because it's never the same
Speaker 1: person meeting this guy twice. I don't know that it's true,
Speaker 1: but there's there's a lot of talk about this, and
Speaker 1: it's an easy jump in logic when you hear these
Speaker 1: stories of I met this really creepy, weird guy with
Speaker 1: a gun in the woods to that creepy weird guy
Speaker 1: with the gun in the woods is the one that's
Speaker 1: killing it. Yeah. In fairness, I've spent a fair amount
Speaker 1: of time in the woods and I have met my
Speaker 1: fair share of creepy weird dude yeah with rifles, and
Speaker 1: I think that's just like a thing in the Pacific West.
Speaker 1: To be honest with you, I don't know that I
Speaker 1: necessarily would think, oh, he did have crazy eyes, like
Speaker 1: of course he had crazy eyes. He was a weird
Speaker 1: dude in the middle of the forest with a rifle,
Speaker 1: Like of course he did. Joe has crazy eyes half
Speaker 1: the time, you know. I mean I think that I
Speaker 1: probably they probably look at me and they're like, what
Speaker 1: is this weird chick doing in the middle of the forest.
Speaker 1: Like she's got a bow and some arrows. She's weirdo,
Speaker 1: you know. That's the sort of I don't know. I
Speaker 1: don't know. It might be that you meet people like
Speaker 1: that too, and you see they have a gun, and
Speaker 1: then you get all freaked out because they have a
Speaker 1: gun and I don't, and so you're sort of like, there,
Speaker 1: oh my god, he's a psycho. And then and then
Speaker 1: you look for reasons to believe he's a psycho and
Speaker 1: you regular guy, or you think, like the what IF's
Speaker 1: get ahold of you? You know, we're like, oh god,
Speaker 1: what if he was crazy? What if he shot me?
Speaker 1: What if he shot those people? Oh my god, he
Speaker 1: totally shot those people. In some of the areas, this
Speaker 1: is this is what I think people are linking to. Specifically,
Speaker 1: is in some of those areas where this mountain man
Speaker 1: has been spotted, or a mountain man has been spot
Speaker 1: or some dude in the forest says, there have been
Speaker 1: couples that are unwed, couples that are found shot in
Speaker 1: the head in their sleeping bags. People are drawing the
Speaker 1: link from that. So that's a pattern. That's a pattern,
Speaker 1: and they're connecting that pattern because of Stephen Harkins, who
Speaker 1: was shot in the head in a sleeping bag. The
Speaker 1: thing is about it. Spot, you spot a couple in
Speaker 1: a sleeping bag, maybe in a tent, how do you
Speaker 1: tell they're unmarried? Yeah? I mean I was going to
Speaker 1: say that. Yeah, like you go talk to him, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you and you say, hey, hold out your left hands,
Speaker 1: both of you know, but not even that. Like my
Speaker 1: parents when we'd go camping, they left their wedding rings
Speaker 1: at home, Like, you don't wear that when you're going
Speaker 1: to go bathe in a stream. That's expensive and awesome, right, No,
Speaker 1: I mean that the thing is like your fingers are
Speaker 1: bloated or whatever. Like I honestly like, we spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time in the wilderness as a kid, and
Speaker 1: my parents literally never took their wedding rings with them.
Speaker 1: So for as far as anybody knew, they were an
Speaker 1: unmarried couple. Yeah, and uh so, it's amazing that didn't
Speaker 1: get shot. Yeah, it absolutely is. It was amazing that
Speaker 1: I wasn't left at a kmart saying mommy was in
Speaker 1: the trees, mommy's in the stream. Oh my gosh, maybe
Speaker 1: I was. Yeah, all right, let's let's move to a
Speaker 1: less theories, because, believe it or not, we still have
Speaker 1: one more to go. It's it's it's actually the hardest one.
Speaker 1: They all suck, don't they a little bit? Here? But okay,
Speaker 1: we talked about this before I did. I dove into
Speaker 1: serial killerville, going through every single board of serial killer
Speaker 1: lists that I could find. Found some unknown and known
Speaker 1: serial killers. And by unknown I mean people that have
Speaker 1: been given a name, but we don't know who they are,
Speaker 1: they've been given a moniker and then people that have
Speaker 1: been caught and we know who they are that because
Speaker 1: they're in the general region, could potentially be responsible for
Speaker 1: this set of double murders that we're talking about. We've
Speaker 1: got uh person that is called the twenty two caliber killer,
Speaker 1: and this person's believed to have killed three women who
Speaker 1: were found dumped in the Spokane River. Spokene, just so
Speaker 1: people know, is on the exact opposite side of the
Speaker 1: state of Washington, like three hundred miles away. It's the
Speaker 1: opposite side, but it's also several years later, so conceivably
Speaker 1: somebody could travel the state. But but they were all
Speaker 1: three shot at the same time. I don't know that
Speaker 1: they weren't shot at the same time, shot in the
Speaker 1: same year. They were prostitutes. They were shot with the
Speaker 1: twenty two rifle or a gun. I should say something,
Speaker 1: we don't know that two caliber gun. Yeah, that's that's
Speaker 1: a completely different circumstances. Again, Joe, that's the hard part
Speaker 1: here is I'm reaching for straws and I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to find people that could potentially be linked. It's not
Speaker 1: that Well, then I'll move to the next one, which
Speaker 1: is Gary Shaw. Gary Shaw was convicted of raping and
Speaker 1: then killing two women in Tacoma in separate attacks in
Speaker 1: which is the same year. He dumped the bodies of
Speaker 1: these women in the woods in Pierce County, which is
Speaker 1: on the edge of Tacoma, which is which is where
Speaker 1: our murders took place. So it's in the same region. Possible.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Again, these are likely again, you know,
Speaker 1: anything I feel for me, anything that is like a
Speaker 1: single female murder, abduction rape thing. I okay, fine, No,
Speaker 1: it's just it's hard because that's so much extra work. Checkmate,
Speaker 1: the Green River killer, what about him? He committed that's
Speaker 1: Gary Ridgeway. That guy went literally bananas with the killing.
Speaker 1: He killed a lot of people. Did he kill anybody
Speaker 1: other than prostitutes? So? Oh, that's the question, right, that's
Speaker 1: the m O. Is the m O? Hey I pick
Speaker 1: up prostitutes or single women and abuse and whatever them
Speaker 1: and kill them? Or do I find couples and take
Speaker 1: care of them? Right? That's the question? Well, and and
Speaker 1: I think potentially you led us to a little bit
Speaker 1: of the answer, which is killers evolve. Could be Wait,
Speaker 1: when there's two people, this is way too much work.
Speaker 1: This is way too difficult. It gets a little messy,
Speaker 1: like people have. There's conjecture that Diana tried to get
Speaker 1: away and that's why she was stabbed so viciously. Is
Speaker 1: that Ruth cooperated so she was easily killed, But Diana
Speaker 1: freaked out and tried to get away and that made
Speaker 1: the killer angry and stabbed ahead. Guess that's true. And
Speaker 1: I guess that that deals with the you know, if
Speaker 1: you're targeting prostitutes, you're targeting women well, but also women
Speaker 1: who have sex outside of marriage if that's your thing, right,
Speaker 1: So I I okay, alright, except okay, so I think
Speaker 1: that Ridgeway ridgeway even though the specialty was prostitutes in
Speaker 1: the I five corridor. You know, when you think about it,
Speaker 1: the guy needs to take a vacation occasionally. Yeah, But
Speaker 1: also the whole Tacoma thing, that's not so far off
Speaker 1: the I five corner. Now, it really isn't that far.
Speaker 1: But I said he was just not camping and just relaxing,
Speaker 1: and it comes across these couples and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm one a little reparational killing, yeah, just for fun um.
Speaker 1: And if anybody doesn't know about the green river Killer.
Speaker 1: There's a ton of information. He lived in Rentain, which
Speaker 1: is north of Tacoma, and north lived he's he's now
Speaker 1: very well locked up. Yeah, this is the only reason
Speaker 1: I'm okay walking to my car at night. Yeah. That
Speaker 1: that is the end of the theories. I mean, like
Speaker 1: I said, I spent forever digging through stuff until I
Speaker 1: realized I was looking for anel in a haystack, and
Speaker 1: I kind of had to stop. And I don't know
Speaker 1: that any of the theories that we've come up with
Speaker 1: ourselves or discussed so far even come close to figuring
Speaker 1: this out, because we're so little there to work with.
Speaker 1: But it's so strange the connection between the two. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's that's totally fair. It's weird
Speaker 1: tube socks with not that's weird. But then the noted
Speaker 1: tube sock doesn't show up again after that. Those two
Speaker 1: are like that. That seems like such a specific thing
Speaker 1: to have done in such a short time span. Now
Speaker 1: it's completely plausible that the goofball that did this then
Speaker 1: got himself arrested for something else and locked up for
Speaker 1: a good long time and we never knew about it
Speaker 1: because nobody ever asked and that person never admitted to it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that happens a lot. Or he could have gotten killed
Speaker 1: or it was d B. Cooper. Yeah, you know, it
Speaker 1: could have could have tried to screw with the wrong
Speaker 1: couple who were armed to the teeth themselves and just
Speaker 1: blew him away and buried him. There's a basilionaces go. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's hard. I would say that. You know again, we'll go,
Speaker 1: We'll go back to. One of my favorite ways of
Speaker 1: looking at these things is that there was somebody specific
Speaker 1: in there that he wanted to kill, probably let's say
Speaker 1: Michael or Diana. I would say Diana was the most brutal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was the most personal. And so and so what
Speaker 1: you do as you go out and you and you
Speaker 1: you kill somebody, you kill a couple out in the
Speaker 1: It was just like just like these two talked about
Speaker 1: the tubestock thing. And then when it kind of time
Speaker 1: that you follow those guys out in the woods, track
Speaker 1: them down and you make and you kill them. And
Speaker 1: then if they if they do have you as a
Speaker 1: suspect for Diana or or whichever, when they have us
Speaker 1: a suspect for you, just say, well, no, it was
Speaker 1: it was a tube sock killer and these other people.
Speaker 1: I have no connection with them whatsoever. The problem you
Speaker 1: run into with that is if they didn't publicize the
Speaker 1: tubesock part of the first part, right is and you say, oh, no,
Speaker 1: it's really a tupto killer because the other lady was
Speaker 1: found with the chepstock, and they're like, well, how did
Speaker 1: you know that? Yeah? But now, yeah, I mean obviously
Speaker 1: obviously you're not going to say that. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think there's an obvious answer here. It was Crystal. Whoa,
Speaker 1: she's the only survivor. I don't know who you want
Speaker 1: for me. She didn't have a good alibi. No, it's
Speaker 1: just a mommy is in the trees. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: a horrible thing. But she as much as anybody that
Speaker 1: I'm realistic. Yeah, well that's that's exactly the hard part
Speaker 1: with this is that she as much as anybody. We guys,
Speaker 1: I've spent I don't know how much time reading on
Speaker 1: this one, and I still don't know where to go.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if you two tracked the
Speaker 1: list that I was making, but things kept changing because
Speaker 1: I kept adding to it and then deleting people off,
Speaker 1: Like I just don't know It's so hard to say,
Speaker 1: but I think think that is probably the best place
Speaker 1: to end this particular story because we just don't know.
Speaker 1: Did we talk about bot No, it's not a Bigfoot
Speaker 1: slash chupa Cabra team up. We're gonna move on, Steve Um,
Speaker 1: I am ninety nine point nine sure, and imagine you've
Speaker 1: ever been Imagine if those two teamed up. I mean,
Speaker 1: it would be probably the end of humanity. So let's
Speaker 1: give you all of the special details that everybody likes
Speaker 1: to hear us talk about at the end of the show,
Speaker 1: which is links for some of the research is going
Speaker 1: to be on our website, and that website is, of course,
Speaker 1: thinking Sideways podcast dot com. If you're there, you can
Speaker 1: of course listen to episodes and stream them right off
Speaker 1: the website. But I'm guessing you've already figured out how
Speaker 1: to download a podcast, and you've probably downloaded us from
Speaker 1: somewhere else. Uh, if that place happens to be iTunes,
Speaker 1: Do take the time to leave a comment and a rating,
Speaker 1: do it. We really appreciate that we are available on
Speaker 1: a ton of other sources for streaming, So whichever one
Speaker 1: you use, I'm gonna guess we're on there at this point,
Speaker 1: so you can find us on there. We uh, we
Speaker 1: of course have the Facebook page and the Facebook group,
Speaker 1: so you can find us friend it's like us. We
Speaker 1: have conversations with folks, put up interesting stuff. It's good times.
Speaker 1: I had a huge conversation with yesterday. God, yeah he did.
Speaker 1: I checked the email account and I was like, what
Speaker 1: if teen new emails the dumbest thing. It turns up
Speaker 1: he is in the group for like an hour and
Speaker 1: a half. Yeah. Um. We also have a Twitter account,
Speaker 1: so we are Thinking Sideways without the G in the middle.
Speaker 1: If you go check it out this week, which is
Speaker 1: going to be like a couple of weeks ago. At
Speaker 1: this point, you can see my photos from the Denver Airport.
Speaker 1: Definitely doesn't have anything to do with an upcoming show.
Speaker 1: Spoilers alert. And most importantly, of course, we have our email.
Speaker 1: You can send us an email at Thinking Sideways podcast
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. So if you've got ideas for stories,
Speaker 1: you've got just general feedback, or you just want a
Speaker 1: fanboy fan girl out, go ahead and send us an
Speaker 1: email at that address. We have also started looking for
Speaker 1: some expert help, I think, as we have actually had
Speaker 1: a huge outpouring of support. Support. I guess people saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm an expert in this thing. So if you are
Speaker 1: an expert and you haven't yet emailed us, or even
Speaker 1: just like an armchair expert, or you think you might
Speaker 1: know something about a thing, just let us know. We
Speaker 1: are kind of collecting that list. We're reaching out to
Speaker 1: people trying to Basically, there are details that we don't know,
Speaker 1: and sometimes we think we figured it out, but it's
Speaker 1: always nice to bounce that off of somebody who actually
Speaker 1: knows about that subject. As I like to say, the
Speaker 1: longer we do this, the more we realize we don't
Speaker 1: really know anything about We know some things about some things,
Speaker 1: and we just want to make sure that our podcast
Speaker 1: and we are as informed as possible and we get right. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: if you know something about something, send us an email
Speaker 1: and we'll add you to the list. Put experts in
Speaker 1: the subject line, please, and I will get it yep,
Speaker 1: and then we'll take care of that. Yeah, we're looking exerts.
Speaker 1: You've actually gotten a single one? Yeah, we have. The
Speaker 1: only other thing I will say about the experts is
Speaker 1: we've We've said this before, but if you want to,
Speaker 1: you want to help out. Please understand that we typically
Speaker 1: need a couple of day turnaround on response. So if
Speaker 1: you're gonna sit on an email, you don't check your
Speaker 1: email but once every couple of weeks or whatever the
Speaker 1: case may be. Or if you don't think you have
Speaker 1: the time, we appreciate the thought, but just you know,
Speaker 1: don't don't sign up because we're gonna try and get
Speaker 1: really quick responses. Yeah, idea and research the last minute.
Speaker 1: Will I don't even say we do all of our
Speaker 1: research at the last minute. As much as we are
Speaker 1: researching up to the last minute, we realized we don't
Speaker 1: know something at the last minute, we do he quick?
Speaker 1: Can you google that crap? Right? What's Wikipedia saying? All right? Wikipedia, Wikipedia.
Speaker 1: We're gonna go ahead and we're gonna wrap this one up.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to us to this time,
Speaker 1: and we will talk to you again next week. Mr Salt.
Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, okay, don't take that the
Speaker 1: wrong way. She wasn't really saying she's a process. Thank you, Joe.
Speaker 1: That's what what I meant. I meant I'm a single female.
Speaker 1: Don't worry about it. Just find a moment of female.
Speaker 1: You getting any ideas here her She's well armed. Don't
Speaker 1: even try it. Yeah, guys armed to the teeth.