WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Tube Sock Killer? 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:17.000 Thinking Sideways. I don't know stories of things we simply 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:22.279 don't know the answer to. Hello, and welcome to the 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:28.040 podcast Thinking Sideways the podcast. Yeah yeah, I am Steve, 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:32.720 of course, joined by Devin and Joe and Joe and 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:36.159 Joe actually my name is Joe, not and Joe. Oh yeah, 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:39.640 well it's yeah, we've had this issue and once again 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.839 this week we have another mystery that we're going to 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:47.159 bring to yep. Yeah, it's a little bit. Yeah. I 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:50.720 don't know if scary, but I was creepy, Yeah, creepy, 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.800 creepy and weird stopping somebody who camps occasionally, you know, 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:57.840 a little twisted me. I even can't buy myself occasionally, 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:02.320 you know. Oh yeah, No, after researching this, I'm pretty 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:04.640 sure I have just come up with the reason that 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:06.720 I'm not going to go camping anymore. And I don't 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.240 like the cap. Well it's okay, you can go camping alone. 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:11.800 You just can't go camping with your significant other. That 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:15.360 seems to be the problem, This is true. Yeah, or 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:19.040 you could just take a gun. Well, let's let's get 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.959 into what we're gonna talk about today, which is the 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:27.360 tubesock killer. Yes, I used I actually put it correctly 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.640 because there's a mark at the end of this. It's 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:35.640 not just a weird speech impediment or pattern or what 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:40.040 what do you call that? So on September, the tub 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:46.560 sock was discovered brutally murder. What's outside of no No, 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.520 Now we're today Joe is goofing. But what we're gonna 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:54.920 talk about is a potential serial killer that is referred 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:59.200 to as the tube Sock killer. This, this story suggestion 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:03.960 a reginally came from Ash. So thanks for sending it 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:08.280 in a long time ago. You set us by way 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:10.880 of apology, you set us so many suggestions. We don't 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:14.440 want your hog in the show that Yeah, you know. 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:16.480 The thing is with this one is is I I 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.320 read it. I mean I read the original topic and 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:22.760 then it started leading into so many things and this 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:27.360 one grew quite rapidly on me. But let's talk about 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:29.640 the first part of the story, which is what Ash 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.760 sent in and suggested. Actually before we get into it, 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.120 if you haven't figured it out yet, we are going 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:39.760 to be talking about a potential serial killer. So there's 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:44.440 gotta be some people getting killed murder, murder, murder, but 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:46.600 a lot of stab stab stabbed. So if that's not 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:48.480 your thing, maybe skip this one. Yeah, I know, we 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:50.639 have a couple of people who say some people like 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.000 stabbings and stuff. If that upset you or the kids 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:55.640 are around, save it for later, or just don't listen. 0:02:56.240 --> 0:03:00.200 But here's our story. On the twelfth of December nine 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.920 in Spanaway, Washington, which, for people who don't know, is 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:09.280 about ten or twenty miles south of Tacoma, Washington, which 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:13.280 is south of Seattle, just south, just south. Yeah, at 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.680 this point they almost have grown together. On that day, 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:21.560 December twelve, two year old Crystal Robertson was found wandering 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:28.320 around alone on December twelve in a kmart. Police were called. 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:32.320 She was taken to a local hospital and it was 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:36.320 a few days before she was identified. And don't worry everybody, 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:38.760 she was perfectly fine. But she was taken to the hospital. 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.760 It was just a precautionary, precautionary. Yeah, they didn't know 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:43.240 who she was, they didn't know what to do with it. 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:45.600 Was like they were gonna put her in a holding cell. Yeah, 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:52.680 so they well, they were taking care of her. Eventually, 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:56.360 her grandparents were found an ideater, so she was returned 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:01.040 to family. But the strange thing is what she said 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:05.000 when she was asked where her parents were, because she said, 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:10.240 and I quote, mommy is in the trees. That's all 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:15.520 we've ever really heard from her. Crystal, she was too. 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:18.239 I don't know if she she blocked it out. She 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.480 she has made it quite clear over time that she 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.640 doesn't want to talk about this story. No, no, which 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.960 is totally understandable. But that's really the only quote we've 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:30.600 got from her, and clear indication of potentially what might 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:34.080 be going on. But it seems like she wasn't actually 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:39.080 particularly traumatized. It does not appear that way. Her parents 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.760 were a man named Michael Reamer and a woman named 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:49.600 Diana Robertson. They were nowhere gonna be found. Reportedly, the 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.800 family had gone into the woods in El Washington to 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:58.080 look for a Christmas tree and to check the traps 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:02.560 of Michael. I Michael had animal traps, is what I 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:06.720 mean by traps, and I haven't been able to find 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.120 anywhere specifically what it was he was trapping. I mean, 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:14.200 I did some looking around, and there's beaver, fox, rabbits, 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.960 and mink in that area, so he potentially could have been. 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:20.080 Also yeats are there as well. He could have just 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:24.520 been trapping for almost anything, just about anything. Michael was 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.760 kind of a jerk. No, I mean, I presume that 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.040 he was trapping for meat mostly, so you know kind 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.880 of thing. Well, right, I read that he was a 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:35.920 fur trapper. He was after their pelts, but he might 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:39.760 have used to meat also. Yeah, yeah, either way, he 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:41.600 had traps in the woods and that was the reason 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:43.200 that he would be in the woods. I don't think 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.920 he can sell Fox anymore, just as a new Fox. 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:49.000 I don't know, I don't know, it doesn't matter. Let's 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:51.719 keep talking about this story. Sorry, it didn't mean the railroad. 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:56.360 You're there in February. Oh is that the next place 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:58.239 that we're at in this story. Yes, we moved forward, 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.880 so we didn't know anything. They were gone, her parents 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.160 were gone, I mean, but nobody knew where they were. 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.440 They went into the woods, and then their daughter appeared 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:13.440 at a kmar kind of surprising. Nobody noticed their truck. Well, well, 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:18.840 their their truck was on an abandoned logging road, so 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:21.279 that's why they wouldn't have found it. But we're getting 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:25.440 a little ahead here. So again, this is February of six, 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.159 and there's a man who's out walking his dog, in 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:34.719 the area and he finds Diana's body. She's found lying 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:39.880 on the ground next to their truck. She has she's 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:45.599 been stabbed seventeen times. I believe she was stabbed in 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:49.760 the chest and the torso is where where all of 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:53.840 the world, Yes, angry guy, Yeah, it doesn't sound like 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:58.240 a very happy person. Um. She also had a tube 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.400 sock tied around her neck that had knots in it, 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.000 and so like the tube sock was tied in knots 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.080 and then tied around her neck like yes, I'm sorry 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.480 to make this comparison, but like a rosary sort of 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:13.040 situation kind of. I mean, I've seen a picture of 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:15.800 it on her. I've seen what I believe is a 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:20.400 real crime scene photo, not a re enactment. And there 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:23.440 is there's the two ends of the sock are knotted 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:25.040 up on the back of her neck, and then there's 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.480 at least one, if not two other knots in the 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:32.960 sock itself. Are they evenly spaced around or like more 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:35.840 or they just like I've never I never saw a 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.160 description of where the knots were. Okay, but you kind 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:41.360 of saw more knots. Well, I saw the main knot 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:43.160 at the back and then there's a description of it 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.320 at least two not so I'm presuming one of those 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:48.160 knots is the knot that they were tied together with, 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:51.040 and then another somewhere else on it, but I don't 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.880 know exactly where those would have been. Yeah, you really 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:55.840 can't see him, and I only saw one picture and 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:57.800 it was kind of low res. Yeah, it was it 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.840 was hard to tell. Like I said, she was found 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:06.200 next to their truck. There was blood found on the 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:10.080 seat of the truck, but the police weren't able to 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.080 determine whose blood it was. I mean, we got to 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.520 remember it's a couple of months later, and this is 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:20.960 so DNA analysis isn't available at the time, so we 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.800 don't know who it belonged to. All they could confirm 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:28.160 is that it was human blood. Now I'm gonna go 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:30.320 out on a limb open and say that probably was 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:35.400 Diana's blood. It's quite, it's quite it's quite. It's quite possible. 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.640 But I've also seen stuff saying that this is still 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:41.800 considered an active case, right, so they can't really talk, 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.480 they can't really talk about it. And there's also the 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:50.840 fact that there are reports that some DNA still exists 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.160 and that that was being tested again, but that was 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:56.880 from two thousand and eleven. I don't know whatever came 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.840 of it. I can't find any information. Again, it's active 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.760 ace technically, so they're not just gonna willy nilly call 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.400 a press reports say we found this. So I don't 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:07.720 know if that DNA is from the blood, if that 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:11.920 DNA was recovered in the sock, I don't know. Yeah, 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.200 you would assume, since it is an active case, that 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.560 if they did have new evidence that would help them 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:22.760 find the perpetrator of this crime, they would be going 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:24.640 public with it. You would kind of assume that. But 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:26.440 also we've assumed things like that in the past, and 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.720 it's turned out to be not true sometimes on certain things. Whatever, 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.640 it's funny how you have an active investigation you just 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:38.160 don't tell everybody stuff that weird. Let's see what else 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.559 was there? Okay. Also with the scene, there were shell 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:46.559 casings found around the truck, but it's not clear from 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.520 the things that I've read if those casings were from 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:52.960 a gun that was fired when they were there or 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.720 prior to their arrival. At the location. It's it's an 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.839 abandoned logging road in the woods, it would be really 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:02.560 hard to tell, especially cap months later. Yeah, this is true. 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:05.079 I mean guys, people go out in the woods all 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.200 the time and just blow up trees, just shoot for funds. 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.800 So it's and just I know people who do it 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:12.880 all the time and they just leave the casing. Not 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.120 my problem. So we don't know. Yeah, shooters usually figure 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:18.000 this some A shooter that comes along next after them 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:19.680 is going to be a reloader and he'll pick it 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:27.880 all up, which is actually also abscrimes. Now this is 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:32.320 inside the truck. A Manila envelope was found and it's 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.280 it's kind of a legal size, you know, you put 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:37.000 eight and half eleven paper in it. It's a big 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:41.920 envelope and handwritten on it is I Love you Diana. 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:46.520 The police turned it over to the fbi'd have it analyzed. 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.720 The handwriting that was you that's on it. According the FBI, 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:53.480 it's inconclusive whose handwriting it is. They don't know if 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:59.439 it's Michael's. According to Diana's mother's it is his handwriting, 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.679 it would be without samples his mother it was Diana's mother. 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:10.240 Diana's mother has been convinced forever that Michael did it, 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:14.000 that he killed her and then beat feet and got 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.680 out of there and just disappeared. So she she was 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.439 convinced that it was his hand writing. Okay, but we 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.680 we don't know that for sure. But you know, based 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:28.040 on the fact that her body is there, his is not. 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:33.880 He's the prime suspect. He's disappeared. He also had a 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:37.200 bit of a temper the you know, there was things 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:41.360 between them, There was domestic disputes, there was fights. She 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.600 had put a restraining order on him at one point. 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:49.360 So everybody's pretty sure that he had a fit of 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:53.800 rage or whatever that it is exactly, and he killed her. 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.439 And then of course it makes sense too that he 0:11:57.480 --> 0:11:59.400 would drop the kid off somewhere where the kid would 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:01.920 be found and taken to the authorities and eventually reunited 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:03.880 with her family. Because he's going to go on the run, 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:05.480 he really can't take a two year old with him. 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.360 I don't know that that's the case. I mean this 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.160 this WEE can get into in theories a little bit, 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:12.080 but I don't know that that's the case, because there 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.920 there are some theories around him being the lone gunmen. 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.960 So well, you know, I guess the other thing is 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:23.120 one kind of thinks from her last name, the two 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.959 year old last name. Gosh, what's her name? Yeah? From 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.920 that and the fact that her mother and father didn't 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.720 have the same last name, was that her biological father, 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.199 it was? But they were not married, Okay, she took 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.760 her mom's name. Well, yeah, I mean she she wasn't married, 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.720 so naturally, what do you do? You give the kids 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:47.280 your last name and she's two years old. They they're 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.400 not married at this point. It's probably not in the 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:54.920 four seable. They're having a lot of relationship issues. I 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:57.520 I'm not I'm not surprised, but I don't know that that. 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:02.320 I don't know what that means except that he is 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:06.760 the father. I do know that. Okay, he's her biological father. Yeah, yeah, 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:08.480 I don't know. I think it could go either way, 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:10.560 that he would drop a kid off or he would 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:14.080 not take the kid with Well, it's harder to be 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.240 on the run with a two year old child, especially 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.320 when amber alerts are a thing. Right, Well, but this 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:22.480 is okay. But but the point is moot. This this 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:27.600 little bit of debate is it's kind of moot because well, 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.280 the case sat the way We've just talked about it 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:35.240 for twenty some years in two thousand and eleven. March 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.400 of two thousand eleven, two men were hiking in that area, 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:43.960 the same place where Diana's body had been found. And 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:46.840 this is, this is I don't quite get this, but 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.280 I'm just gonna go through it. One of them kicked 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:52.200 over the lid of a vacuum cleaner. I don't know 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:54.920 what that means, but I don't know either, and then 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.080 went to kick what he thought was a rock underneath it. 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.840 But it wasn't a rock. Was a piece of Michael's skull. Oh, 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.360 I thought it the whole entire top skull. It's it 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:08.920 wasn't the entire skull. It was a piece of his skull. 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:11.840 They didn't find his entire skull. What they found at 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:17.120 the site was a portion of his skull and eventually 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:22.120 his jawbone, his rubber boots, and I think I think 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.080 there was a belt maybe, But those were the only 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:31.960 things of Michael that they found at that location. Well 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:33.800 that's that's the question. And the other question is how 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.040 did they not find him because it's a couple hundred 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:41.360 yards essentially away stumbled across him, But well it is, 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:46.160 it's it's kind of low scrub brush, So I can 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.720 see how a body might be difficult to find several 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:53.280 months later in the winter. Could be explainable that they 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:56.240 didn't find it, But it's weird, super weird. They seem 0:14:56.320 --> 0:15:00.560 to have maybe not done a great thorough investigation. Possible, 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.680 there's there's also speculation that and and we're not going 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:06.120 to get into this in theory, so we just do 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.240 it now, is that somebody killed them and took his 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:13.120 body away and then brought it back after the investigation 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.320 was finished. But to me, that seems a lot like 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.720 a lot of work, especially since they just left the 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.360 truck and Diana, Yeah, you know, it could be that 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:24.840 they only found the head. It might be they whoever 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:26.680 it was, cut his head off left the head there, 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:29.120 and when you're looking for a body, it's easy to 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:33.040 overlook ahead. And of course they didn't find any any 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:34.760 other parts of his body. But I don't know why 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.400 you'd leave the boots and belts. Yeah, I don't know, 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.640 I don't I have no idea. So it's potentially it's 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:45.760 possible that he was decapitated. We don't know that for sure. 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:47.760 I mean, or he could have sat there for a 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.240 couple of years and rotted away and animals drug drug 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.640 parts of the body slowly but surely away over the 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:58.720 twenties some years, although again boots, rubber boots. Yeah, pulling 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:03.480 feet out rubber boots is hard as an animal. Yeah, yeah, 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.400 I don't know. But but the thing is, all I 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.240 can confirm is that those were the articles of clothing 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:11.880 that were found, and that part of a skull, and 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.080 eventually the job oone of the job bone is how 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.640 they identified him. You know, any kind of body sitting 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.240 on the wilderness for that long, it's hard to never 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.400 really tell if. Yeah, animals probably did drag it away, 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.400 and they're pretty resourceful and yeah that's but yeah, there 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.920 if there's a food source to um. Now, here's the thing. 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:37.520 In the articles and stories about the skull being found, 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:39.920 there's a guy, one of the guys who found in. 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:43.600 His name is Phil Reynolds. He said that in the 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:45.320 part of the skull that they found, there was a 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:48.840 large hole in the temple. Well he had just killed 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:57.080 kicked it. I The police completely denied that Michael was shot. 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:00.360 They say, there's there's not a hole in that Ysa's 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.200 skulls and I must have found a pretty complete, pretty 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:07.040 complete skull. Yeah, yeah, well, I'm thinking it's not a 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:08.639 complete skull, but it's got to be you know, like 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:10.879 two or three of the plates and a little bit 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:12.639 in the front. I don't I mean enough to have 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.840 a temple. Yeah. Well, I mean, let's let's stop with 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.080 the skull, because again I can't get a clear sense 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.760 of exactly what it was it was found, but they 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.640 seem to have a pretty definitive idea. The police did 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:26.240 that he had not been shot in the head. I 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.639 have read a quote from a local police that is 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:33.760 that is true. But we're gonna stop for the moment 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.840 with the murder of Michael and Diana, and we're going 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.119 to move to the other part of the story that 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:46.960 I eventually was led to in the research. The other 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:51.160 part of the story is actually set prior to their 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:56.720 disappearance and murder. On the tenth of August of which 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:00.119 would have been three months. Three months before they went 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.000 into the woods, a gentleman by the name of Stephen 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:09.159 Harkins and his girlfriend Ruth Cooper left Tacoma, Washington, and 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.640 they went to a wedding reception and then they were 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.639 planning to go to Tuley Lake, which is in the 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.280 Tacoma area. And they were going to go for a 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:21.680 weekend of camping. It's really nice. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, It's 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.720 August in Washington. It's one of the few nice times 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:29.760 a year you could possibly go wrong. Yeah. Well that 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:31.960 everything I've read it I've read about them is they 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.800 were They were huge camping nuts. They love to be 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:39.160 in the outdoors. If you see pictures of Stephen Harkins, 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:43.239 he's cut this giant grizzly Adams beer. Of course he 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.240 does even in the in the eighties, right mid eighties. 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:50.080 That was like, maybe now it's not uncommon to know, Yeah, 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:51.960 you see that all the time he's here, But no, 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:55.560 it's he was. He was definitely an outdoorsman. Well, they 0:18:55.680 --> 0:19:00.840 left on the tenth of August. On the August, someone 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:06.160 came by their campsite and found Steven's body. He had 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.440 he was in his sleeping bag and he was laying 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:11.760 in the back of the truck and he had been 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.880 shot in the forehead with a twenty two caliber gun 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.400 that they've taken their dog. The dog was found dead, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.919 also shot in the head. Why does that bother me 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.840 so much more? I'm like, oh, dude got shot in 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:32.880 the head. Oh no, a dog, No, yeah, yeah, so yeah, 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:36.119 both of both of those two were dead. Ruth wasn't 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:40.960 there and she wouldn't be found until October twenty six, 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.840 so we're again, we're talking a month later. Her body 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:49.439 was several hundred yards away from Stevens. Again, it seems 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:53.160 like maybe a really good search of the area maybe 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:58.240 not happening. So I tried. I tried to Joe's trick, 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:00.480 and I went on Google Maps because they give, uh, 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.000 it's kind of a dead end where she was found 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.200 near where they were camping, and it almost seems like 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:09.520 they were nearer road. And then somebody took her across 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:13.680 the road into the partial edges of a neighborhood and 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.280 there was a weird little dead end road. But that's 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:19.520 several hundred yards away, so they probably didn't bother to 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:22.040 go into the neighborhood because nobody in the neighborhood probably 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.520 reported anything. That's conjecture on my part. I can only 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:28.000 admit this. Think about this several hundred yards that could 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.080 be as much as say four yards, which is almost 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:32.960 a quarter mile. So I mean, they're not going to 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:35.480 search that bag of a radius, right, Well, it's difficult 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:37.399 because you've got to remember When you do the search, 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.720 you gotta search the entire three D and sixty degrees around. 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.840 You can't go in one direction another crossing a road. Well, 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:45.959 let's just rule that out. It's kind of an easy 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:48.320 thing for the cops to do or search teams to do. 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:51.359 But I don't know why. But yeah, I don't know 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:55.159 why she wasn't found. But let's talk about Ruth for 0:20:55.200 --> 0:21:00.720 a moment. She'd been decapitated. She had a sock tied 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:05.960 around her neck. I've seen it's conflicting, seen reports that 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:10.480 do and don't say that the sock had not in it. 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:14.320 Reports on our little script here has quotes around it. 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:17.879 So are we talking like things you read on the internet, 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:22.600 or are we talking like I've read different police detective 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:26.240 reports of these things, And the police detective reports aren't 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:29.359 out there because technically it's an open case. So what 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.960 I'm getting is I'm getting reports from reporters. There have been, 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.040 you know, the people who try and commingle it together, 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.000 and as we've always said, we kind of try and 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:41.560 avoid some of that because artistic license takes over. But 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:44.600 I've seen it mentioned and not mentioned, which makes me 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:50.800 question it's validity. I guess for me, since this was 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:54.400 the first right, technically it's the first set of murders, 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:57.080 I would say since it was mentioned and not mentioned, 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:02.280 it was it probably happened. Versus the second set of murderers. 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.800 They were like, oh crap, that happened again. They're not 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:10.119 necessarily hearkening back to this other thing. But you know, 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:13.720 I also suspect that not of the reports on the 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.360 lot that on Diana's murder said oh yeah, it was nodded. 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:19.520 I think that it's probably fair to say that it 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.040 was mentioned and not mentioned in both cases, but that 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:24.600 it's more prevalent in the first case because people thought 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.680 it was probably not super relevant. That's and that's that's 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:31.040 potentially that'd be my conjecture. That's that's quite likely. I 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:33.439 don't know again, you know, it's just what I was 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:36.240 when you just read it. Yeah, yeah, because we don't 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:39.200 have the official police reports. But what I do find 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:43.200 weird is it seems to me that this whole thing 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:45.840 you could say was based around some kind of robbery, 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:49.359 except that her purse was found. Usually when I'm robbing people, 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:53.760 I don't stop the decapit. Yeah, like tube soccer around 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:55.840 their Yeah yeah. And one of the things I was 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:57.480 not able to find an answer to is so she 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:00.760 was decapitated tube soccer around her neck? Well, was it 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:02.679 the part of the neck that was still attached to 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:06.000 the head. I'm going to guess it's the part that's 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:10.119 still attached to the body. I don't know. Sorry to 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:13.119 like get a little grizzly here. I've never seen a 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:17.600 decapitated body necessarily, so I don't know where it is 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:21.520 that you naturally decapitate somebody on the body, like where 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:25.480 the neck ends up. I think I don't know either. 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:27.959 But I've thought about this as well. If you think 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:31.240 about next year collar bone item, there's a lot of 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:35.720 muscle there to sup but up high there's not. The 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:39.800