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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't know stories of things we simply

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Speaker 1: don't know the answer to. Hello, and welcome to the

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Speaker 1: podcast Thinking Sideways the podcast. Yeah yeah, I am Steve,

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Speaker 1: of course, joined by Devin and Joe and Joe and

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Speaker 1: Joe actually my name is Joe, not and Joe. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: well it's yeah, we've had this issue and once again

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Speaker 1: this week we have another mystery that we're going to

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Speaker 1: bring to yep. Yeah, it's a little bit. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if scary, but I was creepy, Yeah, creepy,

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Speaker 1: creepy and weird stopping somebody who camps occasionally, you know,

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Speaker 1: a little twisted me. I even can't buy myself occasionally,

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Speaker 1: you know. Oh yeah, No, after researching this, I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: sure I have just come up with the reason that

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to go camping anymore. And I don't

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Speaker 1: like the cap. Well it's okay, you can go camping alone.

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Speaker 1: You just can't go camping with your significant other. That

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Speaker 1: seems to be the problem, This is true. Yeah, or

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Speaker 1: you could just take a gun. Well, let's let's get

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Speaker 1: into what we're gonna talk about today, which is the

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Speaker 1: tubesock killer. Yes, I used I actually put it correctly

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Speaker 1: because there's a mark at the end of this. It's

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Speaker 1: not just a weird speech impediment or pattern or what

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Speaker 1: what do you call that? So on September, the tub

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Speaker 1: sock was discovered brutally murder. What's outside of no No,

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Speaker 1: Now we're today Joe is goofing. But what we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about is a potential serial killer that is referred

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Speaker 1: to as the tube Sock killer. This, this story suggestion

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Speaker 1: a reginally came from Ash. So thanks for sending it

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Speaker 1: in a long time ago. You set us by way

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Speaker 1: of apology, you set us so many suggestions. We don't

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Speaker 1: want your hog in the show that Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 1: The thing is with this one is is I I

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Speaker 1: read it. I mean I read the original topic and

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Speaker 1: then it started leading into so many things and this

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Speaker 1: one grew quite rapidly on me. But let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the first part of the story, which is what Ash

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Speaker 1: sent in and suggested. Actually before we get into it,

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Speaker 1: if you haven't figured it out yet, we are going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about a potential serial killer. So there's

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Speaker 1: gotta be some people getting killed murder, murder, murder, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of stab stab stabbed. So if that's not

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Speaker 1: your thing, maybe skip this one. Yeah, I know, we

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Speaker 1: have a couple of people who say some people like

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Speaker 1: stabbings and stuff. If that upset you or the kids

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Speaker 1: are around, save it for later, or just don't listen.

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Speaker 1: But here's our story. On the twelfth of December nine

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Speaker 1: in Spanaway, Washington, which, for people who don't know, is

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Speaker 1: about ten or twenty miles south of Tacoma, Washington, which

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Speaker 1: is south of Seattle, just south, just south. Yeah, at

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Speaker 1: this point they almost have grown together. On that day,

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Speaker 1: December twelve, two year old Crystal Robertson was found wandering

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Speaker 1: around alone on December twelve in a kmart. Police were called.

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Speaker 1: She was taken to a local hospital and it was

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Speaker 1: a few days before she was identified. And don't worry everybody,

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Speaker 1: she was perfectly fine. But she was taken to the hospital.

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Speaker 1: It was just a precautionary, precautionary. Yeah, they didn't know

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Speaker 1: who she was, they didn't know what to do with it.

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Speaker 1: Was like they were gonna put her in a holding cell. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so they well, they were taking care of her. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: her grandparents were found an ideater, so she was returned

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Speaker 1: to family. But the strange thing is what she said

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Speaker 1: when she was asked where her parents were, because she said,

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Speaker 1: and I quote, mommy is in the trees. That's all

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Speaker 1: we've ever really heard from her. Crystal, she was too.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if she she blocked it out. She

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Speaker 1: she has made it quite clear over time that she

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk about this story. No, no, which

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Speaker 1: is totally understandable. But that's really the only quote we've

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Speaker 1: got from her, and clear indication of potentially what might

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Speaker 1: be going on. But it seems like she wasn't actually

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Speaker 1: particularly traumatized. It does not appear that way. Her parents

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Speaker 1: were a man named Michael Reamer and a woman named

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Speaker 1: Diana Robertson. They were nowhere gonna be found. Reportedly, the

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Speaker 1: family had gone into the woods in El Washington to

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Speaker 1: look for a Christmas tree and to check the traps

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Speaker 1: of Michael. I Michael had animal traps, is what I

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Speaker 1: mean by traps, and I haven't been able to find

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Speaker 1: anywhere specifically what it was he was trapping. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I did some looking around, and there's beaver, fox, rabbits,

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Speaker 1: and mink in that area, so he potentially could have been.

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Speaker 1: Also yeats are there as well. He could have just

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Speaker 1: been trapping for almost anything, just about anything. Michael was

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Speaker 1: kind of a jerk. No, I mean, I presume that

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Speaker 1: he was trapping for meat mostly, so you know kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. Well, right, I read that he was a

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Speaker 1: fur trapper. He was after their pelts, but he might

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Speaker 1: have used to meat also. Yeah, yeah, either way, he

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Speaker 1: had traps in the woods and that was the reason

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Speaker 1: that he would be in the woods. I don't think

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Speaker 1: he can sell Fox anymore, just as a new Fox.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know, it doesn't matter. Let's

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Speaker 1: keep talking about this story. Sorry, it didn't mean the railroad.

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Speaker 1: You're there in February. Oh is that the next place

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Speaker 1: that we're at in this story. Yes, we moved forward,

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Speaker 1: so we didn't know anything. They were gone, her parents

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Speaker 1: were gone, I mean, but nobody knew where they were.

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Speaker 1: They went into the woods, and then their daughter appeared

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Speaker 1: at a kmar kind of surprising. Nobody noticed their truck. Well, well,

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Speaker 1: their their truck was on an abandoned logging road, so

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Speaker 1: that's why they wouldn't have found it. But we're getting

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Speaker 1: a little ahead here. So again, this is February of six,

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Speaker 1: and there's a man who's out walking his dog, in

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Speaker 1: the area and he finds Diana's body. She's found lying

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Speaker 1: on the ground next to their truck. She has she's

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Speaker 1: been stabbed seventeen times. I believe she was stabbed in

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Speaker 1: the chest and the torso is where where all of

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Speaker 1: the world, Yes, angry guy, Yeah, it doesn't sound like

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Speaker 1: a very happy person. Um. She also had a tube

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Speaker 1: sock tied around her neck that had knots in it,

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Speaker 1: and so like the tube sock was tied in knots

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Speaker 1: and then tied around her neck like yes, I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: to make this comparison, but like a rosary sort of

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Speaker 1: situation kind of. I mean, I've seen a picture of

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Speaker 1: it on her. I've seen what I believe is a

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Speaker 1: real crime scene photo, not a re enactment. And there

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Speaker 1: is there's the two ends of the sock are knotted

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Speaker 1: up on the back of her neck, and then there's

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Speaker 1: at least one, if not two other knots in the

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Speaker 1: sock itself. Are they evenly spaced around or like more

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Speaker 1: or they just like I've never I never saw a

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Speaker 1: description of where the knots were. Okay, but you kind

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Speaker 1: of saw more knots. Well, I saw the main knot

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Speaker 1: at the back and then there's a description of it

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Speaker 1: at least two not so I'm presuming one of those

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Speaker 1: knots is the knot that they were tied together with,

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Speaker 1: and then another somewhere else on it, but I don't

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Speaker 1: know exactly where those would have been. Yeah, you really

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Speaker 1: can't see him, and I only saw one picture and

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Speaker 1: it was kind of low res. Yeah, it was it

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Speaker 1: was hard to tell. Like I said, she was found

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Speaker 1: next to their truck. There was blood found on the

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Speaker 1: seat of the truck, but the police weren't able to

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Speaker 1: determine whose blood it was. I mean, we got to

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Speaker 1: remember it's a couple of months later, and this is

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Speaker 1: so DNA analysis isn't available at the time, so we

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Speaker 1: don't know who it belonged to. All they could confirm

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Speaker 1: is that it was human blood. Now I'm gonna go

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Speaker 1: out on a limb open and say that probably was

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Speaker 1: Diana's blood. It's quite, it's quite it's quite. It's quite possible.

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Speaker 1: But I've also seen stuff saying that this is still

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Speaker 1: considered an active case, right, so they can't really talk,

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Speaker 1: they can't really talk about it. And there's also the

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Speaker 1: fact that there are reports that some DNA still exists

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Speaker 1: and that that was being tested again, but that was

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Speaker 1: from two thousand and eleven. I don't know whatever came

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Speaker 1: of it. I can't find any information. Again, it's active

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Speaker 1: ace technically, so they're not just gonna willy nilly call

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Speaker 1: a press reports say we found this. So I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that DNA is from the blood, if that

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Speaker 1: DNA was recovered in the sock, I don't know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you would assume, since it is an active case, that

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Speaker 1: if they did have new evidence that would help them

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Speaker 1: find the perpetrator of this crime, they would be going

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Speaker 1: public with it. You would kind of assume that. But

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Speaker 1: also we've assumed things like that in the past, and

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Speaker 1: it's turned out to be not true sometimes on certain things. Whatever,

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Speaker 1: it's funny how you have an active investigation you just

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Speaker 1: don't tell everybody stuff that weird. Let's see what else

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Speaker 1: was there? Okay. Also with the scene, there were shell

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Speaker 1: casings found around the truck, but it's not clear from

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Speaker 1: the things that I've read if those casings were from

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Speaker 1: a gun that was fired when they were there or

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Speaker 1: prior to their arrival. At the location. It's it's an

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Speaker 1: abandoned logging road in the woods, it would be really

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Speaker 1: hard to tell, especially cap months later. Yeah, this is true.

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Speaker 1: I mean guys, people go out in the woods all

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Speaker 1: the time and just blow up trees, just shoot for funds.

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Speaker 1: So it's and just I know people who do it

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Speaker 1: all the time and they just leave the casing. Not

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Speaker 1: my problem. So we don't know. Yeah, shooters usually figure

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Speaker 1: this some A shooter that comes along next after them

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Speaker 1: is going to be a reloader and he'll pick it

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Speaker 1: all up, which is actually also abscrimes. Now this is

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Speaker 1: inside the truck. A Manila envelope was found and it's

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a legal size, you know, you put

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Speaker 1: eight and half eleven paper in it. It's a big

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Speaker 1: envelope and handwritten on it is I Love you Diana.

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Speaker 1: The police turned it over to the fbi'd have it analyzed.

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Speaker 1: The handwriting that was you that's on it. According the FBI,

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Speaker 1: it's inconclusive whose handwriting it is. They don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's Michael's. According to Diana's mother's it is his handwriting,

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Speaker 1: it would be without samples his mother it was Diana's mother.

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Speaker 1: Diana's mother has been convinced forever that Michael did it,

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Speaker 1: that he killed her and then beat feet and got

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Speaker 1: out of there and just disappeared. So she she was

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Speaker 1: convinced that it was his hand writing. Okay, but we

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Speaker 1: we don't know that for sure. But you know, based

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Speaker 1: on the fact that her body is there, his is not.

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Speaker 1: He's the prime suspect. He's disappeared. He also had a

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Speaker 1: bit of a temper the you know, there was things

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Speaker 1: between them, There was domestic disputes, there was fights. She

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Speaker 1: had put a restraining order on him at one point.

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Speaker 1: So everybody's pretty sure that he had a fit of

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Speaker 1: rage or whatever that it is exactly, and he killed her.

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Speaker 1: And then of course it makes sense too that he

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Speaker 1: would drop the kid off somewhere where the kid would

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Speaker 1: be found and taken to the authorities and eventually reunited

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Speaker 1: with her family. Because he's going to go on the run,

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Speaker 1: he really can't take a two year old with him.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that that's the case. I mean this

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Speaker 1: this WEE can get into in theories a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know that that's the case, because there

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Speaker 1: there are some theories around him being the lone gunmen.

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Speaker 1: So well, you know, I guess the other thing is

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Speaker 1: one kind of thinks from her last name, the two

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Speaker 1: year old last name. Gosh, what's her name? Yeah? From

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Speaker 1: that and the fact that her mother and father didn't

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Speaker 1: have the same last name, was that her biological father,

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Speaker 1: it was? But they were not married, Okay, she took

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Speaker 1: her mom's name. Well, yeah, I mean she she wasn't married,

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Speaker 1: so naturally, what do you do? You give the kids

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Speaker 1: your last name and she's two years old. They they're

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Speaker 1: not married at this point. It's probably not in the

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Speaker 1: four seable. They're having a lot of relationship issues. I

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Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not surprised, but I don't know that that.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what that means except that he is

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Speaker 1: the father. I do know that. Okay, he's her biological father. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it could go either way,

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Speaker 1: that he would drop a kid off or he would

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Speaker 1: not take the kid with Well, it's harder to be

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Speaker 1: on the run with a two year old child, especially

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Speaker 1: when amber alerts are a thing. Right, Well, but this

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Speaker 1: is okay. But but the point is moot. This this

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Speaker 1: little bit of debate is it's kind of moot because well,

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Speaker 1: the case sat the way We've just talked about it

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Speaker 1: for twenty some years in two thousand and eleven. March

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Speaker 1: of two thousand eleven, two men were hiking in that area,

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Speaker 1: the same place where Diana's body had been found. And

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Speaker 1: this is, this is I don't quite get this, but

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go through it. One of them kicked

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Speaker 1: over the lid of a vacuum cleaner. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what that means, but I don't know either, and then

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Speaker 1: went to kick what he thought was a rock underneath it.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't a rock. Was a piece of Michael's skull. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I thought it the whole entire top skull. It's it

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Speaker 1: wasn't the entire skull. It was a piece of his skull.

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Speaker 1: They didn't find his entire skull. What they found at

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Speaker 1: the site was a portion of his skull and eventually

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Speaker 1: his jawbone, his rubber boots, and I think I think

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Speaker 1: there was a belt maybe, But those were the only

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Speaker 1: things of Michael that they found at that location. Well

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Speaker 1: that's that's the question. And the other question is how

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Speaker 1: did they not find him because it's a couple hundred

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Speaker 1: yards essentially away stumbled across him, But well it is,

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Speaker 1: it's it's kind of low scrub brush, So I can

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Speaker 1: see how a body might be difficult to find several

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Speaker 1: months later in the winter. Could be explainable that they

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Speaker 1: didn't find it, But it's weird, super weird. They seem

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Speaker 1: to have maybe not done a great thorough investigation. Possible,

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Speaker 1: there's there's also speculation that and and we're not going

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Speaker 1: to get into this in theory, so we just do

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Speaker 1: it now, is that somebody killed them and took his

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Speaker 1: body away and then brought it back after the investigation

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Speaker 1: was finished. But to me, that seems a lot like

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Speaker 1: a lot of work, especially since they just left the

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Speaker 1: truck and Diana, Yeah, you know, it could be that

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Speaker 1: they only found the head. It might be they whoever

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Speaker 1: it was, cut his head off left the head there,

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Speaker 1: and when you're looking for a body, it's easy to

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Speaker 1: overlook ahead. And of course they didn't find any any

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Speaker 1: other parts of his body. But I don't know why

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Speaker 1: you'd leave the boots and belts. Yeah, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I don't I have no idea. So it's potentially it's

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Speaker 1: possible that he was decapitated. We don't know that for sure.

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Speaker 1: I mean, or he could have sat there for a

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Speaker 1: couple of years and rotted away and animals drug drug

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Speaker 1: parts of the body slowly but surely away over the

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Speaker 1: twenties some years, although again boots, rubber boots. Yeah, pulling

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Speaker 1: feet out rubber boots is hard as an animal. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. But but the thing is, all I

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Speaker 1: can confirm is that those were the articles of clothing

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Speaker 1: that were found, and that part of a skull, and

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Speaker 1: eventually the job oone of the job bone is how

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Speaker 1: they identified him. You know, any kind of body sitting

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Speaker 1: on the wilderness for that long, it's hard to never

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Speaker 1: really tell if. Yeah, animals probably did drag it away,

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Speaker 1: and they're pretty resourceful and yeah that's but yeah, there

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Speaker 1: if there's a food source to um. Now, here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: In the articles and stories about the skull being found,

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Speaker 1: there's a guy, one of the guys who found in.

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Speaker 1: His name is Phil Reynolds. He said that in the

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Speaker 1: part of the skull that they found, there was a

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Speaker 1: large hole in the temple. Well he had just killed

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Speaker 1: kicked it. I The police completely denied that Michael was shot.

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Speaker 1: They say, there's there's not a hole in that Ysa's

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Speaker 1: skulls and I must have found a pretty complete, pretty

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Speaker 1: complete skull. Yeah, yeah, well, I'm thinking it's not a

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Speaker 1: complete skull, but it's got to be you know, like

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Speaker 1: two or three of the plates and a little bit

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Speaker 1: in the front. I don't I mean enough to have

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Speaker 1: a temple. Yeah. Well, I mean, let's let's stop with

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Speaker 1: the skull, because again I can't get a clear sense

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Speaker 1: of exactly what it was it was found, but they

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Speaker 1: seem to have a pretty definitive idea. The police did

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Speaker 1: that he had not been shot in the head. I

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Speaker 1: have read a quote from a local police that is

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Speaker 1: that is true. But we're gonna stop for the moment

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Speaker 1: with the murder of Michael and Diana, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to move to the other part of the story that

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Speaker 1: I eventually was led to in the research. The other

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Speaker 1: part of the story is actually set prior to their

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Speaker 1: disappearance and murder. On the tenth of August of which

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Speaker 1: would have been three months. Three months before they went

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Speaker 1: into the woods, a gentleman by the name of Stephen

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Speaker 1: Harkins and his girlfriend Ruth Cooper left Tacoma, Washington, and

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Speaker 1: they went to a wedding reception and then they were

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Speaker 1: planning to go to Tuley Lake, which is in the

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Speaker 1: Tacoma area. And they were going to go for a

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Speaker 1: weekend of camping. It's really nice. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, It's

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Speaker 1: August in Washington. It's one of the few nice times

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Speaker 1: a year you could possibly go wrong. Yeah. Well that

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Speaker 1: everything I've read it I've read about them is they

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Speaker 1: were They were huge camping nuts. They love to be

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Speaker 1: in the outdoors. If you see pictures of Stephen Harkins,

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Speaker 1: he's cut this giant grizzly Adams beer. Of course he

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Speaker 1: does even in the in the eighties, right mid eighties.

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Speaker 1: That was like, maybe now it's not uncommon to know, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you see that all the time he's here, But no,

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Speaker 1: it's he was. He was definitely an outdoorsman. Well, they

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Speaker 1: left on the tenth of August. On the August, someone

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Speaker 1: came by their campsite and found Steven's body. He had

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Speaker 1: he was in his sleeping bag and he was laying

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Speaker 1: in the back of the truck and he had been

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Speaker 1: shot in the forehead with a twenty two caliber gun

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Speaker 1: that they've taken their dog. The dog was found dead,

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Speaker 1: also shot in the head. Why does that bother me

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Speaker 1: so much more? I'm like, oh, dude got shot in

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Speaker 1: the head. Oh no, a dog, No, yeah, yeah, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: both of both of those two were dead. Ruth wasn't

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Speaker 1: there and she wouldn't be found until October twenty six,

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Speaker 1: so we're again, we're talking a month later. Her body

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Speaker 1: was several hundred yards away from Stevens. Again, it seems

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Speaker 1: like maybe a really good search of the area maybe

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Speaker 1: not happening. So I tried. I tried to Joe's trick,

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Speaker 1: and I went on Google Maps because they give, uh,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a dead end where she was found

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Speaker 1: near where they were camping, and it almost seems like

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Speaker 1: they were nearer road. And then somebody took her across

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Speaker 1: the road into the partial edges of a neighborhood and

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Speaker 1: there was a weird little dead end road. But that's

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Speaker 1: several hundred yards away, so they probably didn't bother to

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Speaker 1: go into the neighborhood because nobody in the neighborhood probably

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Speaker 1: reported anything. That's conjecture on my part. I can only

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Speaker 1: admit this. Think about this several hundred yards that could

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Speaker 1: be as much as say four yards, which is almost

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Speaker 1: a quarter mile. So I mean, they're not going to

347
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Speaker 1: search that bag of a radius, right, Well, it's difficult

348
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Speaker 1: because you've got to remember When you do the search,

349
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Speaker 1: you gotta search the entire three D and sixty degrees around.

350
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Speaker 1: You can't go in one direction another crossing a road. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's just rule that out. It's kind of an easy

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Speaker 1: thing for the cops to do or search teams to do.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know why. But yeah, I don't know

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Speaker 1: why she wasn't found. But let's talk about Ruth for

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Speaker 1: a moment. She'd been decapitated. She had a sock tied

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Speaker 1: around her neck. I've seen it's conflicting, seen reports that

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Speaker 1: do and don't say that the sock had not in it.

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Speaker 1: Reports on our little script here has quotes around it.

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Speaker 1: So are we talking like things you read on the internet,

360
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Speaker 1: or are we talking like I've read different police detective

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Speaker 1: reports of these things, And the police detective reports aren't

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Speaker 1: out there because technically it's an open case. So what

363
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Speaker 1: I'm getting is I'm getting reports from reporters. There have been,

364
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Speaker 1: you know, the people who try and commingle it together,

365
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Speaker 1: and as we've always said, we kind of try and

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Speaker 1: avoid some of that because artistic license takes over. But

367
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Speaker 1: I've seen it mentioned and not mentioned, which makes me

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Speaker 1: question it's validity. I guess for me, since this was

369
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Speaker 1: the first right, technically it's the first set of murders,

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Speaker 1: I would say since it was mentioned and not mentioned,

371
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Speaker 1: it was it probably happened. Versus the second set of murderers.

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Speaker 1: They were like, oh crap, that happened again. They're not

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Speaker 1: necessarily hearkening back to this other thing. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I also suspect that not of the reports on the

375
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Speaker 1: lot that on Diana's murder said oh yeah, it was nodded.

376
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Speaker 1: I think that it's probably fair to say that it

377
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Speaker 1: was mentioned and not mentioned in both cases, but that

378
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Speaker 1: it's more prevalent in the first case because people thought

379
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Speaker 1: it was probably not super relevant. That's and that's that's

380
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Speaker 1: potentially that'd be my conjecture. That's that's quite likely. I

381
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Speaker 1: don't know again, you know, it's just what I was

382
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Speaker 1: when you just read it. Yeah, yeah, because we don't

383
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Speaker 1: have the official police reports. But what I do find

384
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Speaker 1: weird is it seems to me that this whole thing

385
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: you could say was based around some kind of robbery,

386
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 1: except that her purse was found. Usually when I'm robbing people,

387
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: I don't stop the decapit. Yeah, like tube soccer around

388
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 1: their Yeah yeah. And one of the things I was

389
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: not able to find an answer to is so she

390
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Speaker 1: was decapitated tube soccer around her neck? Well, was it

391
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:02,679
Speaker 1: the part of the neck that was still attached to

392
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Speaker 1: the head. I'm going to guess it's the part that's

393
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 1: still attached to the body. I don't know. Sorry to

394
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: like get a little grizzly here. I've never seen a

395
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Speaker 1: decapitated body necessarily, so I don't know where it is

396
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: that you naturally decapitate somebody on the body, like where

397
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 1: the neck ends up. I think I don't know either.

398
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,959
Speaker 1: But I've thought about this as well. If you think

399
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: about next year collar bone item, there's a lot of

400
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: muscle there to sup but up high there's not. The

401
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: muscles are much thinner. Blow your jaw bone and towards

402
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: the back, so all you got you've got less muscle

403
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 1: mass there, and you've got the skull to leverage against.

404
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: I know that sounds terrible, but you think about if

405
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: you've got a saul through something you need some leverage,

406
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 1: you can work a knife against it. I'm probably now

407
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 1: going to get arrested because somebody's gonna say you know that,

408
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: But so like in that situation, then you would you

409
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: would just guess that the tubestock would have to be

410
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: around the lower neck. That's what I'm I'm I'm guessing. Yes.

411
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Speaker 1: By the way, was it just a random hiker that

412
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: found her body? Yeah? That must really sucks enough to

413
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: find a body, but finding a headless body. Yeah. Yeah.

414
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: You know, I was going to make a joke about

415
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: a tourniquet, but I will not. I wouldn't make that joke. Um, now, okay,

416
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 1: so we said, let's do a little timeline bit here.

417
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: We said that they left on the tenth of August

418
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: and she was found on the six of October, So

419
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: there's some time there, enough time for decomposition to take effect,

420
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: that they take effect to set in enough that they

421
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: couldn't determine how she died. All they could determine was

422
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: the official cause of death was homicidal violence. Yeah. I

423
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 1: think that's fair. I mean, at the minimum violence. Yeah,

424
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, there's no way to tell if the

425
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: head was sought off post mortem or not. I would

426
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: not that long after, No, it seems like yeah, I mean,

427
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: I can't imagine decapitating alive person, at least not like

428
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: an unconscious person. But I guess I also can't really

429
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: necessarily imagine decapitating a person or even like a fish.

430
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: I make my boyfriend do that. I like to fish,

431
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: but like, say, you know, an animal like a squirrel. No,

432
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: too much. So yeah, it just seems like it would

433
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: be so much extra work to be like, oh God,

434
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: you're still alive and you're fighting me. I guess you know.

435
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, And this is where I get arrested. Right,

436
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: too much work. I'm too lazy. I'm just to soccer head,

437
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 1: you know. But yeah, alright, so let's let's let's go

438
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: back to the story, and let's let's do a little

439
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: summation of what we have in terms of the facts.

440
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: We have four people, two couples, killed within four months

441
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,479
Speaker 1: of each other. They all died in a wooded area,

442
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 1: and all of both sets of bodies were found within

443
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: fifteen miles of each other then or about it's about

444
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: about fifteen miles as the crow flies, I'm guessing. Yeah, one,

445
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 1: possibly two people were decapitated and the and the possible

446
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: is Michael. He may have been decapitated. Both of the

447
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: women had tubes socks tied around their necks. The rest

448
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: of the details of the killings, there's there's really a

449
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: lot of inconsistencies. We've got one confirmed shooting and that's Stephen.

450
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 1: I do have a source that I don't know how

451
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: credible it is that's says that all four of them

452
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: were shot in the head with a twenty two. It's

453
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: one source I've seen that I didn't see that in

454
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: other areas. There is, as usual, a lot of conflicting

455
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: stuff out there and a lot of people making things up. Yeah,

456
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's inescapable, how difficult it is. So

457
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: we've we've got other Okay, what's the other details we have.

458
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: We've got a confirmed stabbing. One couple apparently killed at

459
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: night and I've heard conjecture on this, but I'm not positive.

460
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: But Stephen harkins he's in a sleeping bag, which makes

461
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 1: me think that it's nighttime. Yeah, I'll push back on

462
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: that though. I mean, you go camping, you see in

463
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: your sleeping bag a little longer. Especially, he was in

464
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: the bed of his truck, right in the bed of

465
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: the truck. It could have been warning. It could have

466
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: been warning. It could have been early evening. I mean,

467
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: you know, depending on the I guess it was August.

468
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: So the nights are a little shorter, certainly, but well,

469
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: and then there's there's um Michael Raamer and Diana Robertson

470
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: they if they went out to get a Christmas tree

471
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 1: and check traps. I'm not thinking that they went out

472
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: in the evening. It's the day, so there's been morning.

473
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: But also I guess the only other thing I would

474
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: say is that of our confirmed serial killers that we've

475
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: ever talked about, our researched or privately, you know, been

476
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: fascinating obsessed with you. Yeah, I don't know that. Oh

477
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: and all of them were killed at exactly five oh

478
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: five pm. You know that's not necessarily a thing, particularly

479
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: when you're talking about wilderness killings. No, No, that's you know,

480
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: the guys who go out and attack prostitutes. That's usually

481
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: done at night because that's when the trade is active.

482
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean it may not make it may

483
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: be a useless detail to focus on them at the

484
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: time of day. I I completely understand that, Yeah, these

485
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: are probably opportunistic crimes, quite likely. Here here we go,

486
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: We've got a couple of other things that I've noted here. Uh,

487
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: it's this is terrible, but it's unclear if the person

488
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: who killed them had sex with the women because their

489
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: months have gone by, that's not going to be evident anymore.

490
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: On the scene photo of Diana, she had her clothes,

491
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: she had her clothes. Yeah, but let's I mean again,

492
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: in fairness, sorry, I'm pushing back on so many of

493
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: these things. Sexual deviance doesn't necessarily mean that you have

494
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: to have sex person to gain sexual pleasure from the

495
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: thing that you're doing to that person. Particularly, right if

496
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: you're like, if your ritual is tying a tied tube

497
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: sock around somebody's neck, it doesn't mean you have to

498
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: actually have sex with that person to gain the pleasure

499
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: from it. And even it doesn't have to be sexual deviance.

500
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: It could just be psychopathic deviance that you gain pleasure

501
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: from that act, right, Yeah. No. The the other thing

502
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: I want to talk about real briefly is speculation. Is

503
00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: speculation that I've seen about the tube sock itself. So

504
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: the tube sock, we haven't really described it, but it's

505
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: your well, it's your standards eighties tubes sock. It's like

506
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: the calf height, it's kind of gets you white. It's

507
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: got a couple of color. I think there are blue stripes,

508
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: you know, like you would see in what was that

509
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: Will Ferrell basketball movie and they were all wearing the

510
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: giant tall socks. I mean it's that kind of sock, big, huge,

511
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: with big white colored band socks. Yes, yeah, but the knots,

512
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: the knots are speculated to have been a form of control.

513
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: So if you've got something tied around someone's neck and

514
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: it's got a couple of knots on it, when you

515
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: pull on it, it's gonna push on the windpipe, it's

516
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: gonna restrict them. Even where it's kind of like a

517
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: dog color, like a choke chain on a dog that

518
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: kept him alive for a while. Yeah, yeah, it's possible.

519
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know that the tooth sock is

520
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,959
Speaker 1: the weird element in both of these, particularly because it's

521
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: it happened twice, yes, within you know, within a couple

522
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: of months, in the same kind of area. That is

523
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: the weird part. And yeah, that and the like you know,

524
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: a two year old child saying, mommy's in the trees.

525
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: But I think the tubesock thing is it's worth mentioning.

526
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: And I think that once we get into theories, it

527
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: can knock a lot of theories out, it does it

528
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: does dash some that will say that. But but this thing,

529
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: this story, when you put these two couples together and

530
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: what happened to them, it lights up everybody to the

531
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: fact that there it's got to be a serial killer.

532
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: And said serial killer. Should probably talk about the theories

533
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of them based around serial killers. Yeah,

534
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: it's hard. Serial things are hard. Do you think he

535
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: only had one pair of socks and then he went

536
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: on serial killing without the socks? He just had the

537
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: one pair of tubes socks out after Well, I guess

538
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: I have to stop back to the store. And I'm

539
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: sure you've experienced this when you go back for something

540
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: that you really like and it discontinued. I got to

541
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: become the panty host murderer. You two were so weird. Okay,

542
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: let's uh, let's let's go into our first theory. First

543
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: theory is that Michael Reemer did it all dumb. Sorry

544
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: this one, it's completely circumstantial to me, but we're going

545
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: to run through it anyway. The theory is that Michael,

546
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: who had a violent streak and had a reason to

547
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: go into the woods, which was to check his traps,

548
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: came across Stephen and Ruth and killed him because they

549
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: made him mad for some reason. And then several months later, um,

550
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: he goes to the woods with a Diana and either

551
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: in another fit of rage or out of guilt, decides

552
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: that he's got to kill her too. Now he we

553
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: briefly touched on his violence, So I talked about there

554
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: was the restraining order. Like one thing I want to

555
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: I want to bring up has been you know, he said, Well, guys,

556
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: guy's got a temper. He yells or he flails his

557
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: hands around. No, this guy like at one point was

558
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: having an argument through the door, broke the door down,

559
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: grabbed Diana and rubbed her face in the carpet I'm

560
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: guessing giving her a severe carpet berth other things. Yeah,

561
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: so he wasn't exactly the sweetest man in the world.

562
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: So I guess the question for me on that is

563
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: was his rage confined to kind of domestic disputes. Was

564
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: it that things in his relationships set him off or

565
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: was he just easily set off? You know, were there

566
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: instances of road rage, were getting enough work or anything

567
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: like that, Because there are some guys who are just

568
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: like angry dudes and they just get mad at everything.

569
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: But there are also some people, not just guys that

570
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 1: would be unfair, but there are people who in their

571
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: relationship become that kind of angry, horrible person, and you

572
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: kind of assume, at least I assume that unless the

573
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: only victim of them is their partner, partner, that it.

574
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 1: You know, you don't just like that. Yeah, you don't

575
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: just like walk out and find to two people camping

576
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: and suddenly kill them. Yeah. I tell you. One thing

577
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: that murderers, almost all murders have in common is that

578
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: they have prior fel any convictions for violent offenses? Did

579
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: he did, Michael Reen, were have any any convictions for anything?

580
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: I couldn't find anything about criminal. I couldn't find anything

581
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: about whether what Devon was asking about. I couldn't find

582
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: out if he just had domestic anger issues, you know,

583
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: relationship issues, or if it was a wider go Yeah,

584
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: I don't. I never saw any of that. Yeah. I

585
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: think that people are putting forth and Michael did it

586
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: theory would probably be able to come up with something. Yeah,

587
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: you would think so, yeah, yeah, but but but this

588
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: theory goes that, like I said, he finds Stephen and

589
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: Ruth and he kills him, which several months later, he

590
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 1: goes back into the woods, He kills Diana, takes the girl,

591
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: the daughter Crystal, back to the kmart, then drives back out,

592
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,959
Speaker 1: wanders away, and then kills himself. And he doesn't necessarily

593
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: have to shoot himself, if you think about it, If

594
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: he cuts his this is going to be kind of gross.

595
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 1: But if he's a couple hundred yards away and he

596
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: kneels down and he cuts his wrists and he chucks

597
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: the knife, a knife is not going to be found

598
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 1: next to his remains, but his head may not have

599
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: originally been where his skull was found either. That's a

600
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 1: whole lot of conjections. I completely agree with that, but

601
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: you know, that's that's the way this theory goes. And

602
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: I've just got I got a run with you. Do

603
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: you have to say it? But I think it's dumb,

604
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you know, that's a whole lot

605
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: of remorse for somebody to have, for for a psychopathic

606
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: as he would have had to have been to actually

607
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: do these things. You know, it's Yeah, I don't I

608
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: just don't buy it. No, I I think that it's

609
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: it's done a whole lot of water for me. Yeah,

610
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: it was unlikely. Yeah, let's let's move to the next theory.

611
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: Theory number two is that the killings were unrelated. Yeah,

612
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: so yeah, I have a hard time with this one.

613
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: But but here's how this goes. Is that the theory

614
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: is that Stephen and Ruth were not killed by the

615
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: same person who killed Michael and Diana, and instead they

616
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: were complete killed by completely different individuals. And the tubesck

617
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: is a giant coincidence. Well, you know, actually in favor

618
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: of the series. Tube socks were hugely popular at that time.

619
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: People still we actually I don't know if they were

620
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: they in the eighties, Yeah, they were, Yeah, it was

621
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: kind of But I think that the fact that you

622
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: would not them and tie them around a woman's neck

623
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: in the same kind of area as the coincidence is

624
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: also super duck coincidence. But let's let's run down this

625
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: as we do so. Stephen Harkins was at the time

626
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: apparently involved in a dispute with another man over guessing

627
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 1: it's paying for repairs to his hardy because it's hardly

628
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: had been damnaged. Stevens Harley. Steven's Hartley is from what

629
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: I gathered, Yeah, it sounds like Stephen was actually a biker, right,

630
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: I Harley doesn't mean that he was a biker. I

631
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: heard from another source that he was. He actually was

632
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: a biker. That doesn't necessarily mean he's in a gang.

633
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: You know, a gang biker? No, No, you're the guy

634
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: who likes your motorcycle. But if you remember when I

635
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: was originally talking about their murder, in the day they disappeared,

636
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: they had gone to a wedding reception before heading out camping.

637
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 1: The guy that Stephen was having this dispute with he

638
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: showed up at the reception shortly after they left, and

639
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: people have said he was hot to find Stephen and

640
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 1: he wanted to have a confrontation over this this money

641
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: bit about damage to the bike. Well, if we if

642
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: we follow that logic, it is possible that that person

643
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: could have talked to other people, found out where they

644
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: were going to go camping, followed them, and then killed

645
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: the couple. Yeah. Yeah, although I guess the argument against

646
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 1: that would be that the vengeance and anger is mostly

647
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: towards Stephen, right, and so why killed Ruth and the dog?

648
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: Well or so brutally right that the brutality would be

649
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 1: funnel towards Stephen, not through Diana or sorry Ruth and

650
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: the dog well or the dog even got off the easiest. Yeah. Yeah,

651
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: that's the question, right is that is if it was

652
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: this guy that did it, you would think that his anger,

653
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: he would want to torture that person more. He would

654
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: be angry at that person that would be the person

655
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: he wanted to you know, affect, unless he would have

656
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: made him watch the torture of Ruth. But that seems

657
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: unlikely because he was in a sleeping bed. Maybe that

658
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: was it. You stay with the gun and shoots a

659
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: dog says, you stay in your sleeping bag while I

660
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: saw your girlfriend's head off and then like ft away.

661
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: Though like it's not it's not like it happened right there.

662
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: There is that. I mean, I'm not fun. I don't

663
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: know that the problem with this theory is this guy

664
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: whose name I don't have. I found his name on

665
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: one one place and then immediately lost. And that's also

666
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: not enough for me, the one place name thing. But

667
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: but the thing is, the police track this guy now

668
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: and they investigated him. They there wasn't any evidence or

669
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: enough evidence to link him to the murder of Stephen

670
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: and Rude. That's probably why you can't find his name,

671
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: you know, be suppresed they let him go. But but

672
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: according to this theory, if if we then moved back

673
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: to Michael and Diana, they were just in the wrong

674
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 1: place at the wrong time, and some other random person

675
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: killed him for some other random reason, and the tuck

676
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: thing and again the dupe stop. As they said at

677
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: the top of this is the giant coincidence, and it is.

678
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: And the thing about it is is that, of course

679
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: it couldn't have been a copycat incident unless the killer

680
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: was himself a cop. Do I had access to police

681
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: face because the police didn't publicize the fact that there

682
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: was a tubesock involved with the original murder? Correct? And

683
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: so yeah, so do you have that inlisted theories here? Cop? No? No, no, no,

684
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: I don't. I hadn't even thought about the fact that

685
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 1: it could have been a cop doing a copycat killing

686
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: for some personal vendelities political. But I feel suddenly like

687
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 1: we're on an episode of Castle where we're just making stuff.

688
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: Well no, but I mean, you know, not to get

689
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 1: like crazy or whatever. But if recent events have shown nothing,

690
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: it's that many cops are kind of crazy people. So uh,

691
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: it's not so far to stretch the imagination that it

692
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:30,919
Speaker 1: could have been a cop who knew about the first

693
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 1: murder and or somebody or somebody with access to police records.

694
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: And I know a lot of reporters bribe policemen, but

695
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: not in Washington. Yeah. Yeah, so you know, it's not

696
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: one of your theories. We are not going to keep

697
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: going on that. But I think it's also not so

698
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: far out of reach. It's completely I'm not gonna I'm

699
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: not gonna swat it down immediately. This this particular theory, though,

700
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: brings out the creepiest thing about this story. And now

701
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 1: we talked about this a little bit in the beginning,

702
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: but who took the little girl to the freaking kmart?

703
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: That that that, by far is the weirdest thing. It

704
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: creached me out more than the fact that they cut

705
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 1: off Ruth's head. Yeah. Well, I think the really creepy

706
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: part about that isn't necessarily that somebody took her there.

707
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: It's that like she was too and two year olds

708
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: can tell, you know, they she should have been able

709
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: to say, oh it was my or it was a stranger.

710
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 1: And the fact that nobody pushed her and nobody said

711
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: but no, for real, we need to know rocky beer,

712
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: or there wasn't any kind of CCTV of the parking lot,

713
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: because even in you know, the eighties, that was a thing. No, no,

714
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: it was not often. It was on a loop. But

715
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: if you find a two year old wandering around your store,

716
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 1: you're gonna like search that stuff. Especially for a large

717
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: chain like Kmart. It's one thing to say, Okay, this

718
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: one tiny shop in Portland didn't have it, but it's

719
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: a large chain like Hamart, they're going to have that stuff.

720
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: Even in the eighties, she's a two year old girl.

721
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: They found her wandering around and nobody's doing anything about that.

722
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,280
Speaker 1: They're just like it was under the hospital and accept

723
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: the fact that the only thing she's ever said is

724
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: mommy's in the trees. No, you can't stop there, you

725
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: can't stop there. I am surprised that they must have

726
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: asked her. Maybe they couldn't get any coherent answer out

727
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: of her at age two, and I guess that's a

728
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: lot to expect. But just who brought you here? Did

729
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: mommy bring you here? Did daddy bring you here? Did

730
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: somebody else bring you here? Yeah? Who brought you here?

731
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: What did he look like? Even if she says, right, oh,

732
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: he looked like a spaghetti monster with green ears, like

733
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: you can make that into something, thank you. But it's possible, right,

734
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: It's possible that it's also possible, now that I've gone

735
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: on this tangent, that she actually did say all that

736
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 1: stuff and that the police are can to you to

737
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: suppress it for whatever reason is because yeah, um, but

738
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: it seems to me that if she had actually witnessed

739
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: her parents being murdered, that she would have been in

740
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: pretty bad I don't think she did. I don't think

741
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: she did at all. I don't think she did. I

742
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 1: think I don't. I think that this guy, assuming the killer,

743
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: took her there, must have said She's like, where's mommy

744
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: and daddy? And he's like, oh, you know, I'm going

745
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: to take you and see them, and he gives her

746
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 1: a piece of candy because you know, when you're when

747
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: you're at that age and somebody somebody hands you a

748
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: candy bar, I mean that's like they're they're golden, Yeah,

749
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,439
Speaker 1: the best thing ever, or you know, she said, It's

750
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 1: possible also, particularly if if Michael was abusing Diana, Crystal

751
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: would have been around, she would have seen that. It's

752
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: possible that somebody said, oh, mommy and daddy are fighting,

753
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to take you someplace nice and buy you

754
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: a toy, and then you know, walked away from her,

755
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: or uh, you know, where's mommy and daddy? Oh, mommy's

756
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 1: in the trees, and I'm gonna take you to the

757
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: toy store to get you a barbie, or here's some candy,

758
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: or you know, it's not it's not so hard to

759
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: bribe two year olds for things, especially if they come

760
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,720
Speaker 1: from are quite especially if they come from what sounds

761
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: like a really, really horrible homelie. It was a little

762
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: bit um. But also I think that it's not too

763
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: much to expect that you could ask a two year

764
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: old who brought you here and they could tell you

765
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 1: that's not that's not. I don't think so either. One

766
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: of the One of the things about the Kmar, though,

767
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: is that I do believe the killer was from the

768
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,959
Speaker 1: area and familiar with it because of the Kmar, because

769
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: it was the closest big box store where he could

770
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: dump the kid off off anonymously to the murder side.

771
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: It was. Yeah, so I'm suspecting he's from the area

772
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: or she or he and she that might be why

773
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: the kid is alive. Is perhaps the perhaps a female

774
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: half of the killer couple really wasn't cool with killing

775
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 1: a two year old girl. We wow, this really went

776
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: for this is okay, I'm just gonna say this right now.

777
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: Is this? This is the hard part with this cases

778
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,760
Speaker 1: that they're so many things and I went down so

779
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 1: many rabbit holes. I started going down the serial killer path,

780
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: which really it took me a long time to get

781
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: out of there. It's kind of funny. I'm at home,

782
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: I've researched the heck out of this story. That my

783
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: fiance comes home, we're having a conversation. She walks into

784
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: the kitchen. She comes back and I'm on the laptop

785
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: and she just looks over my shoulders goes and you're

786
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: googling serial killers again. That's that's how far down it's.

787
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: It's just like this thing is just so I can

788
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: want up you on this. I was doing research on

789
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: this on the airplane. So I'm sitting next to a

790
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: stranger on my let iPad going tupsock killer murders, into coma, washes,

791
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: how to decomposition of bodies, and you know this person

792
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: sitting next to me going can I yeah, well, I

793
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: mean that's part of the job, right, it is. It is. Well,

794
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: let's let's go to this would be theory number three.

795
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: The theory runs that there is a man named Joseph

796
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 1: Burgess who is responsible for this. Okay, that's credible some ways,

797
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about Let's talk about him. Let's

798
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: talk about Joe. Joseph headed him. Let's keep talking about Joe.

799
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: So Joe, Yeah, I had a lot of two sucks.

800
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 1: So Burges headed into the wilds, and by wilds, I

801
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: mean Canada in to avoid the draft. You left country

802
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,280
Speaker 1: to dodge the draft. I don't know anybody who's done that. Nope.

803
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: But he was a bit of an outdoorsman, and he

804
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: actually did go into the woods to not come back

805
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two, so four years later in Anada,

806
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: he just said, well, that's it. I can't take it.

807
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: I'm getting out of here. And he was in the

808
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: woods until two thousand and nine when he died. Out

809
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: of society. That except for when he come to cabins

810
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: and break into him and steal stuff. That because well

811
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 1: he's trying to survive. Yeah, you gotta get some extra stuff. Yeah, Well,

812
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 1: when he first left society back in seventy two. He

813
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: was known to have a twenty two caliber rifle and

814
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: considered himself, for Brad, to be quite the marksman winds

815
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 1: his Uh. He's known to have killed some people, were

816
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: believed to have killed some people, I should say, but

817
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: his m O. The only similarity is the shootings tube

818
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 1: socks were never used. If he did that, it was

819
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 1: a random thing, and then he just didn't repeat it again.

820
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:59,240
Speaker 1: He was a member of what is called the fanatical Church,

821
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: and I use that because that's the way I've seen

822
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 1: it refer to in a number of places. But that

823
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: church was called Children of God, the Family International, and

824
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: they believe, and he believed. I should say that he

825
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 1: was on a mission directly from God, and that appears

826
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: to have been his motivation for killing people. Have you

827
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: read the book about these people? No, I haven't. The Family.

828
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,879
Speaker 1: I have it. I'll let you borrow it. Okay. It's fascinating,

829
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 1: you know, since we have some people who like conspiracy theories,

830
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: go read that book, The Family. The Family. It's just

831
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: called the Family, and it's an investigative report about this group,

832
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 1: the Children of God, the Family International, the Family of Love,

833
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 1: the family as it pertains to the U. S. Government.

834
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: It's awesome read it. Okay, Burgess is part of that

835
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 1: church yea or group group? Yeah. I think it sort

836
00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: of fell out action. He he had some very strong

837
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 1: views and like I said, he believed he was on

838
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 1: a mission from God. And one of the things that

839
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 1: he I don't know where this comes from, I'll be

840
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: honest with you, have seen it said, but I don't

841
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: know where it came from, is that he was obsessed

842
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: with and disgusted by unwed couples a k a. People

843
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: having sex that aren't in a marriage, couples without the

844
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: benefit of marriage. Yes, he didn't like that. And he

845
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: traveled up and down the western coastline from he stayed

846
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: in the States after he left Canada. From what we

847
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: can kind of tell, I mean, the guys in the

848
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: freaking woods, he's not going to just check it. It's

849
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 1: hard to say exactly where he was, but it sounds

850
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 1: like he went north to south, from the south tip

851
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: of California to the north tip of Washington, just kind

852
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: of traveling back and forth on the way. I also,

853
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting that people say, oh, yeah, he

854
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: broke into he broke into our cabin, Like, did they

855
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 1: have footage? Did they see him? How do they know?

856
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: Were they there? That's that's the hard Did you just

857
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 1: assume it was the Barefoot Bandit? Like, what's going on? Yeah,

858
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: I can't remember was it the Barefoot Bandit is that

859
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: what they called him? No, that he had a nickname,

860
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 1: and I can't remember what the bandit was really recent? Okay,

861
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: this guy, I can't remember what they called him, but

862
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 1: but he had a nickname, and they were because he

863
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: kept hitting the same ones over and over they did,

864
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 1: so they were pretty sure the same guy, and they

865
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: they believe it was him. Makes sense, but but there's

866
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: just there's some things that make me really question if

867
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: it's him. According to reports, and again I don't know

868
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: how valid this is because the guys just traveling around.

869
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 1: He was in Arizona at the time that the murders

870
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: were committed, and Arizona was the place where all the

871
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,320
Speaker 1: cabin breakings were taking place. That's where a lot of Yeah,

872
00:51:55,560 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 1: he evidently upgraded guns before five. He went from a

873
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 1: twenty two to a forty five. And you know, actually

874
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: I read that when I actually when he died, he

875
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: didn't just die, he was shot to death by the police.

876
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: And it wasn't the police, it was off duty police officers. Okay,

877
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: but anyway, he he was found in hit to have

878
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 1: his possession then not a forty five but a three

879
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: fifty seven magnum revolver. Oh yeah, and the revolver was

880
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 1: originally sold to a guy who had disappeared, so probably

881
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: another one of his victim got it. With the way

882
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: he went down, he he I think he got cop

883
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: breaking into a place, and it was a man and

884
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: a woman. I think they were off duty cops. They

885
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,280
Speaker 1: might not have been, but I think they were. Uh,

886
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: they exchanged fire. He shoots the male cop in the

887
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: leg after having been shot himself. So as he gets shot,

888
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,800
Speaker 1: he's going down, he's still firing rounds hit this cop.

889
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: The other the lady cop didn't know how to use

890
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: the gun that she had. Well, it was it was

891
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 1: something to do with I think it was. Is it.

892
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: There's a single action and a double action, Is that correct, Joe?

893
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 1: She just though she thought a single action, she didn't

894
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,240
Speaker 1: know how to use it and it was a double action.

895
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,399
Speaker 1: So the cop who had been shot grabbed the gun

896
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: from her and then kills Burgess and then later dies

897
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: himself like a hail of bullets. The story probably the reverse.

898
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 1: So if you think if you think something as a

899
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: as a single action, that means you cock the hammer

900
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 1: a single action, you have to cock every time. She

901
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: probably had a single action revolver thinking it was a

902
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 1: double action, not realizing the trigger. You got to cock

903
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 1: the hammer on action. That's what it was, but it was.

904
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: It was a crazy scenario, but that's that's how he died.

905
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: The There's one other thing about him that I have

906
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: I've read that again, I can't corroborate anywhere else, saying

907
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: that at the time of the murders he was in

908
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 1: jail in California. That having been said, I again, I'm said,

909
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,280
Speaker 1: the guy's not checking in. We don't know exactly where

910
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: he is. So it's hard to say if he was

911
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 1: responsible for these two double murders. That's hard. Yeah, I

912
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: would say it's possible because one of the things that

913
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: when you want a upgraded two at three fifty seven,

914
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean he through is twenty two away. Oh absolutely,

915
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 1: no rifle actually is a murder. Weabin in the woods

916
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 1: makes a lot more sense because much quieter, easier to

917
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: get AMMO for it weighs a lot less. Yeah, so,

918
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,280
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it could have been him. We belabored

919
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: him enough. We're gonna go to number four. So, by

920
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 1: the way, the guy was ugly. I don't know if

921
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: he saw pictures of him, he was he was scary, like,

922
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I don't know. Look look him up. He's

923
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: a burgess. Is a crazy looking, bearded, screwy mountain man.

924
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: I didn't ever want to meet him. But next theory

925
00:54:54,040 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: is that the killings were done by a person and

926
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,800
Speaker 1: who had a thing to use a tube sock, and

927
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 1: we just don't know who they are. So there there

928
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 1: are a huge string of killings of people hiking and

929
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 1: camping up and down the western coast of the United

930
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 1: States out there getting killed. Yeah, and it's it's before

931
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,800
Speaker 1: these folks died and well after, I mean recently is

932
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: I think two years ago there was another one. I've

933
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: seen maps to try and connect them, and if they

934
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: truly are connected, it's like you said, it's scary, but

935
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,959
Speaker 1: it's also a little strange because again the socks never

936
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: make an appearance again. Um, to travel that much ground,

937
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 1: it's it's fair distances to suddenly go like I've seen

938
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: one of the maps, and it jumps from you know,

939
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: from northern Washington to southern California and then back up

940
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: to northern Oregon like this, this is yours distances to

941
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 1: be traveling in how much time? Though? If it's I

942
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: can't imagine there's just one killer in weeks. But it

943
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,919
Speaker 1: just seems like, you know why, I mean, I guess

944
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: it could be a trucker, but why would truckers be

945
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 1: out on campsites and you think trucks would be But

946
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: I mean, well, but if you're it's hard to it's

947
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: hard to wrap my brain around. I guess, like the

948
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: rail lines is pretty like if you're hopping rail cars, right,

949
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 1: if you're homeless or vagrant, or maybe you've got a car,

950
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 1: or maybe you have a car and you're driving. But

951
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 1: that does seem it seems weird that you would travel

952
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 1: that far up and down, back and forth unless you

953
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:36,359
Speaker 1: were like train hopping and that was kind of where

954
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 1: you were living. Right If you were just like, well,

955
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to get in my car and drive to

956
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: California and then kill some people and then drive up

957
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: to Washington and kills the more people, you know, that's

958
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 1: that's a little less sketchy, but nobody nobody's claiming. I

959
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:50,359
Speaker 1: don't seriously though, that all of these murders all down

960
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,399
Speaker 1: the coast the same person. There are people who are

961
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: trying to make connections. I will say that, but nobody

962
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: seriously says they're all connected. It just random to be

963
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: all connected. And let's face it, there's no shortage of

964
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 1: serial killers. There's no reason that one poor Harry it

965
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 1: overworks serial killer has to be doing all of this.

966
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 1: So so the thing is, with all of these, all

967
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: of these murders up and down the coast, Like I

968
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: said before, the tube sock never shows up. Maybe it

969
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 1: was a tool of convenience and the two murders, I

970
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:25,479
Speaker 1: don't know, but it doesn't come up. You know, there's

971
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: there's people that I've looked at that I've tried to

972
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: pin this on that I couldn't. Israel Keys was one

973
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: of the ones that I wanted depended on, except it

974
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 1: turns out he's way too young. He'd have been eight

975
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 1: years old at the time of the murders. That doesn't work,

976
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 1: and you didn't find anything that could have escalated from

977
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 1: the tube Sockmarer is right, I mean you that that

978
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: that's an elementary tool. I looked at people who shot

979
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: or strangled their victims, and we're going to talk about

980
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: some serial killers that could possibly be it. But I

981
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 1: never found a wrong link. And serial killers don't tend

982
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: to change their m O. So you would think that

983
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 1: those two factors, the strangling and the shooting, would have

984
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 1: ast Yes, regardless of the sock, may have used a

985
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: rope or whatever, but but that that way to go

986
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 1: about it. Serial killers do tend to evolve. Yeah, but

987
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 1: there there's probably some smart ones at you actually changed

988
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 1: their all over the place. Oh god, that's scary to

989
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 1: think about it. It is really the scariest part about it.

990
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: As a white female, I don't want a gun in

991
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: a grenade with you. So that we're going to move

992
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: to our next theory, and this is this is loosely

993
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 1: tied to the last two. There's a guy who's sometimes

994
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: he's called the Mountain Man. You'll hear him called the

995
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 1: Elbs serial killer or the Northwest serial killer in the

996
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 1: Cascadia serial Killer. I don't know if I don't know

997
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 1: if I see that, okay, making it okay, This is

998
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: making reference to a serial killer that is believed to

999
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: be operating in the range of northwestern Oregon up to

1000
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 1: the Tacoma Seattle area, and there's there's been a couple

1001
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 1: of reports that have come across about a strange mountain

1002
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: man who just comes out of the woods and he's

1003
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 1: got a twenty two rifle and maybe another gun on him,

1004
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: and he's really strange and he's really weird, and he

1005
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: gives people the creeps and he's you know, he's he's

1006
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: They think that he potentially could be the person, and

1007
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: that he's territorial for where he's at. So he stumbles

1008
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: across somebody in his area doing something he doesn't like

1009
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: and decides that's it. I'm gonna hunt you down and

1010
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill you like pray, and that's what he does.

1011
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: I don't know that that this person actually exists. I mean,

1012
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 1: it could just be a random weirdo that somebody that

1013
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: different people have bumped into, because it's never the same

1014
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 1: person meeting this guy twice. I don't know that it's true,

1015
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 1: but there's there's a lot of talk about this, and

1016
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: it's an easy jump in logic when you hear these

1017
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 1: stories of I met this really creepy, weird guy with

1018
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: a gun in the woods to that creepy weird guy

1019
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 1: with the gun in the woods is the one that's

1020
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 1: killing it. Yeah. In fairness, I've spent a fair amount

1021
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 1: of time in the woods and I have met my

1022
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 1: fair share of creepy weird dude yeah with rifles, and

1023
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 1: I think that's just like a thing in the Pacific West.

1024
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 1: To be honest with you, I don't know that I

1025
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: necessarily would think, oh, he did have crazy eyes, like

1026
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 1: of course he had crazy eyes. He was a weird

1027
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 1: dude in the middle of the forest with a rifle,

1028
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 1: Like of course he did. Joe has crazy eyes half

1029
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 1: the time, you know. I mean I think that I

1030
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 1: probably they probably look at me and they're like, what

1031
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 1: is this weird chick doing in the middle of the forest.

1032
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 1: Like she's got a bow and some arrows. She's weirdo,

1033
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 1: you know. That's the sort of I don't know. I

1034
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: don't know. It might be that you meet people like

1035
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: that too, and you see they have a gun, and

1036
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 1: then you get all freaked out because they have a

1037
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: gun and I don't, and so you're sort of like, there,

1038
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 1: oh my god, he's a psycho. And then and then

1039
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: you look for reasons to believe he's a psycho and

1040
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 1: you regular guy, or you think, like the what IF's

1041
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 1: get ahold of you? You know, we're like, oh god,

1042
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 1: what if he was crazy? What if he shot me?

1043
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 1: What if he shot those people? Oh my god, he

1044
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 1: totally shot those people. In some of the areas, this

1045
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 1: is this is what I think people are linking to. Specifically,

1046
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 1: is in some of those areas where this mountain man

1047
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 1: has been spotted, or a mountain man has been spot

1048
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 1: or some dude in the forest says, there have been

1049
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 1: couples that are unwed, couples that are found shot in

1050
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 1: the head in their sleeping bags. People are drawing the

1051
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 1: link from that. So that's a pattern. That's a pattern,

1052
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 1: and they're connecting that pattern because of Stephen Harkins, who

1053
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: was shot in the head in a sleeping bag. The

1054
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 1: thing is about it. Spot, you spot a couple in

1055
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 1: a sleeping bag, maybe in a tent, how do you

1056
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 1: tell they're unmarried? Yeah? I mean I was going to

1057
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: say that. Yeah, like you go talk to him, Yeah,

1058
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: you and you say, hey, hold out your left hands,

1059
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: both of you know, but not even that. Like my

1060
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 1: parents when we'd go camping, they left their wedding rings

1061
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: at home, Like, you don't wear that when you're going

1062
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 1: to go bathe in a stream. That's expensive and awesome, right, No,

1063
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: I mean that the thing is like your fingers are

1064
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 1: bloated or whatever. Like I honestly like, we spent a

1065
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 1: lot of time in the wilderness as a kid, and

1066
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: my parents literally never took their wedding rings with them.

1067
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 1: So for as far as anybody knew, they were an

1068
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 1: unmarried couple. Yeah, and uh so, it's amazing that didn't

1069
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 1: get shot. Yeah, it absolutely is. It was amazing that

1070
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 1: I wasn't left at a kmart saying mommy was in

1071
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 1: the trees, mommy's in the stream. Oh my gosh, maybe

1072
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 1: I was. Yeah, all right, let's let's move to a

1073
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 1: less theories, because, believe it or not, we still have

1074
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: one more to go. It's it's it's actually the hardest one.

1075
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 1: They all suck, don't they a little bit? Here? But okay,

1076
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: we talked about this before I did. I dove into

1077
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: serial killerville, going through every single board of serial killer

1078
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:30,440
Speaker 1: lists that I could find. Found some unknown and known

1079
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:34,240
Speaker 1: serial killers. And by unknown I mean people that have

1080
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 1: been given a name, but we don't know who they are,

1081
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 1: they've been given a moniker and then people that have

1082
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 1: been caught and we know who they are that because

1083
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 1: they're in the general region, could potentially be responsible for

1084
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 1: this set of double murders that we're talking about. We've

1085
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 1: got uh person that is called the twenty two caliber killer,

1086
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:02,840
Speaker 1: and this person's believed to have killed three women who

1087
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 1: were found dumped in the Spokane River. Spokene, just so

1088
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 1: people know, is on the exact opposite side of the

1089
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 1: state of Washington, like three hundred miles away. It's the

1090
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 1: opposite side, but it's also several years later, so conceivably

1091
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 1: somebody could travel the state. But but they were all

1092
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: three shot at the same time. I don't know that

1093
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 1: they weren't shot at the same time, shot in the

1094
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 1: same year. They were prostitutes. They were shot with the

1095
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,880
Speaker 1: twenty two rifle or a gun. I should say something,

1096
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:39,600
Speaker 1: we don't know that two caliber gun. Yeah, that's that's

1097
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 1: a completely different circumstances. Again, Joe, that's the hard part

1098
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 1: here is I'm reaching for straws and I'm just trying

1099
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 1: to find people that could potentially be linked. It's not

1100
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: that Well, then I'll move to the next one, which

1101
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 1: is Gary Shaw. Gary Shaw was convicted of raping and

1102
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 1: then killing two women in Tacoma in separate attacks in

1103
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 1: which is the same year. He dumped the bodies of

1104
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 1: these women in the woods in Pierce County, which is

1105
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:15,919
Speaker 1: on the edge of Tacoma, which is which is where

1106
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 1: our murders took place. So it's in the same region. Possible.

1107
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. Again, these are likely again, you know,

1108
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 1: anything I feel for me, anything that is like a

1109
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 1: single female murder, abduction rape thing. I okay, fine, No,

1110
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 1: it's just it's hard because that's so much extra work. Checkmate,

1111
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 1: the Green River killer, what about him? He committed that's

1112
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 1: Gary Ridgeway. That guy went literally bananas with the killing.

1113
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 1: He killed a lot of people. Did he kill anybody

1114
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 1: other than prostitutes? So? Oh, that's the question, right, that's

1115
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 1: the m O. Is the m O? Hey I pick

1116
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 1: up prostitutes or single women and abuse and whatever them

1117
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: and kill them? Or do I find couples and take

1118
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 1: care of them? Right? That's the question? Well, and and

1119
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 1: I think potentially you led us to a little bit

1120
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 1: of the answer, which is killers evolve. Could be Wait,

1121
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 1: when there's two people, this is way too much work.

1122
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:23,480
Speaker 1: This is way too difficult. It gets a little messy,

1123
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:27,600
Speaker 1: like people have. There's conjecture that Diana tried to get

1124
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 1: away and that's why she was stabbed so viciously. Is

1125
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 1: that Ruth cooperated so she was easily killed, But Diana

1126
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 1: freaked out and tried to get away and that made

1127
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:44,440
Speaker 1: the killer angry and stabbed ahead. Guess that's true. And

1128
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 1: I guess that that deals with the you know, if

1129
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 1: you're targeting prostitutes, you're targeting women well, but also women

1130
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 1: who have sex outside of marriage if that's your thing, right,

1131
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: So I I okay, alright, except okay, so I think

1132
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 1: that Ridgeway ridgeway even though the specialty was prostitutes in

1133
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: the I five corridor. You know, when you think about it,

1134
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 1: the guy needs to take a vacation occasionally. Yeah, But

1135
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 1: also the whole Tacoma thing, that's not so far off

1136
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 1: the I five corner. Now, it really isn't that far.

1137
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:16,480
Speaker 1: But I said he was just not camping and just relaxing,

1138
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 1: and it comes across these couples and I was like, oh,

1139
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:25,040
Speaker 1: I'm one a little reparational killing, yeah, just for fun um.

1140
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:29,040
Speaker 1: And if anybody doesn't know about the green river Killer.

1141
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 1: There's a ton of information. He lived in Rentain, which

1142
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 1: is north of Tacoma, and north lived he's he's now

1143
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 1: very well locked up. Yeah, this is the only reason

1144
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 1: I'm okay walking to my car at night. Yeah. That

1145
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:47,920
Speaker 1: that is the end of the theories. I mean, like

1146
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 1: I said, I spent forever digging through stuff until I

1147
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 1: realized I was looking for anel in a haystack, and

1148
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 1: I kind of had to stop. And I don't know

1149
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 1: that any of the theories that we've come up with

1150
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 1: ourselves or discussed so far even come close to figuring

1151
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 1: this out, because we're so little there to work with.

1152
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 1: But it's so strange the connection between the two. Yeah,

1153
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:19,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's that's totally fair. It's weird

1154
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:23,160
Speaker 1: tube socks with not that's weird. But then the noted

1155
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 1: tube sock doesn't show up again after that. Those two

1156
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:30,880
Speaker 1: are like that. That seems like such a specific thing

1157
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 1: to have done in such a short time span. Now

1158
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:40,479
Speaker 1: it's completely plausible that the goofball that did this then

1159
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:45,719
Speaker 1: got himself arrested for something else and locked up for

1160
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:49,160
Speaker 1: a good long time and we never knew about it

1161
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 1: because nobody ever asked and that person never admitted to it. Yeah, yeah,

1162
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 1: that happens a lot. Or he could have gotten killed

1163
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 1: or it was d B. Cooper. Yeah, you know, it

1164
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 1: could have could have tried to screw with the wrong

1165
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 1: couple who were armed to the teeth themselves and just

1166
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:11,599
Speaker 1: blew him away and buried him. There's a basilionaces go. Yeah,

1167
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 1: it's hard. I would say that. You know again, we'll go,

1168
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 1: We'll go back to. One of my favorite ways of

1169
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 1: looking at these things is that there was somebody specific

1170
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,599
Speaker 1: in there that he wanted to kill, probably let's say

1171
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 1: Michael or Diana. I would say Diana was the most brutal. Yeah,

1172
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:28,200
Speaker 1: it was the most personal. And so and so what

1173
01:09:28,320 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 1: you do as you go out and you and you

1174
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 1: you kill somebody, you kill a couple out in the

1175
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 1: It was just like just like these two talked about

1176
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 1: the tubestock thing. And then when it kind of time

1177
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:40,080
Speaker 1: that you follow those guys out in the woods, track

1178
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 1: them down and you make and you kill them. And

1179
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 1: then if they if they do have you as a

1180
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:48,360
Speaker 1: suspect for Diana or or whichever, when they have us

1181
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:50,680
Speaker 1: a suspect for you, just say, well, no, it was

1182
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 1: it was a tube sock killer and these other people.

1183
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:55,720
Speaker 1: I have no connection with them whatsoever. The problem you

1184
01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:57,760
Speaker 1: run into with that is if they didn't publicize the

1185
01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 1: tubesock part of the first part, right is and you say, oh, no,

1186
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 1: it's really a tupto killer because the other lady was

1187
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:04,880
Speaker 1: found with the chepstock, and they're like, well, how did

1188
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 1: you know that? Yeah? But now, yeah, I mean obviously

1189
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 1: obviously you're not going to say that. I mean, I

1190
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 1: think there's an obvious answer here. It was Crystal. Whoa,

1191
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 1: she's the only survivor. I don't know who you want

1192
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:24,240
Speaker 1: for me. She didn't have a good alibi. No, it's

1193
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 1: just a mommy is in the trees. I mean, that's

1194
01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:33,960
Speaker 1: a horrible thing. But she as much as anybody that

1195
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 1: I'm realistic. Yeah, well that's that's exactly the hard part

1196
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:41,080
Speaker 1: with this is that she as much as anybody. We guys,

1197
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:44,599
Speaker 1: I've spent I don't know how much time reading on

1198
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 1: this one, and I still don't know where to go.

1199
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if you two tracked the

1200
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 1: list that I was making, but things kept changing because

1201
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:54,880
Speaker 1: I kept adding to it and then deleting people off,

1202
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:59,040
Speaker 1: Like I just don't know It's so hard to say,

1203
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:02,799
Speaker 1: but I think think that is probably the best place

1204
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 1: to end this particular story because we just don't know.

1205
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:13,440
Speaker 1: Did we talk about bot No, it's not a Bigfoot

1206
01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 1: slash chupa Cabra team up. We're gonna move on, Steve Um,

1207
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 1: I am ninety nine point nine sure, and imagine you've

1208
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:27,360
Speaker 1: ever been Imagine if those two teamed up. I mean,

1209
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 1: it would be probably the end of humanity. So let's

1210
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:36,040
Speaker 1: give you all of the special details that everybody likes

1211
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 1: to hear us talk about at the end of the show,

1212
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:41,840
Speaker 1: which is links for some of the research is going

1213
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 1: to be on our website, and that website is, of course,

1214
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:49,639
Speaker 1: thinking Sideways podcast dot com. If you're there, you can

1215
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:53,360
Speaker 1: of course listen to episodes and stream them right off

1216
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:56,599
Speaker 1: the website. But I'm guessing you've already figured out how

1217
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:59,360
Speaker 1: to download a podcast, and you've probably downloaded us from

1218
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 1: somewhere else. Uh, if that place happens to be iTunes,

1219
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:06,240
Speaker 1: Do take the time to leave a comment and a rating,

1220
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 1: do it. We really appreciate that we are available on

1221
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: a ton of other sources for streaming, So whichever one

1222
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,799
Speaker 1: you use, I'm gonna guess we're on there at this point,

1223
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 1: so you can find us on there. We uh, we

1224
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,719
Speaker 1: of course have the Facebook page and the Facebook group,

1225
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:29,280
Speaker 1: so you can find us friend it's like us. We

1226
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:32,599
Speaker 1: have conversations with folks, put up interesting stuff. It's good times.

1227
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: I had a huge conversation with yesterday. God, yeah he did.

1228
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 1: I checked the email account and I was like, what

1229
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:42,720
Speaker 1: if teen new emails the dumbest thing. It turns up

1230
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:44,400
Speaker 1: he is in the group for like an hour and

1231
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:48,919
Speaker 1: a half. Yeah. Um. We also have a Twitter account,

1232
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 1: so we are Thinking Sideways without the G in the middle.

1233
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 1: If you go check it out this week, which is

1234
01:12:55,160 --> 01:12:57,479
Speaker 1: going to be like a couple of weeks ago. At

1235
01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:01,600
Speaker 1: this point, you can see my photos from the Denver Airport.

1236
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:04,880
Speaker 1: Definitely doesn't have anything to do with an upcoming show.

1237
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:11,639
Speaker 1: Spoilers alert. And most importantly, of course, we have our email.

1238
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:15,400
Speaker 1: You can send us an email at Thinking Sideways podcast

1239
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. So if you've got ideas for stories,

1240
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 1: you've got just general feedback, or you just want a

1241
01:13:24,240 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 1: fanboy fan girl out, go ahead and send us an

1242
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:32,559
Speaker 1: email at that address. We have also started looking for

1243
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:35,599
Speaker 1: some expert help, I think, as we have actually had

1244
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:41,559
Speaker 1: a huge outpouring of support. Support. I guess people saying, yeah,

1245
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:43,559
Speaker 1: I'm an expert in this thing. So if you are

1246
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:46,160
Speaker 1: an expert and you haven't yet emailed us, or even

1247
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:48,599
Speaker 1: just like an armchair expert, or you think you might

1248
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:51,320
Speaker 1: know something about a thing, just let us know. We

1249
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:53,519
Speaker 1: are kind of collecting that list. We're reaching out to

1250
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 1: people trying to Basically, there are details that we don't know,

1251
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:01,479
Speaker 1: and sometimes we think we figured it out, but it's

1252
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:04,439
Speaker 1: always nice to bounce that off of somebody who actually

1253
01:14:04,479 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 1: knows about that subject. As I like to say, the

1254
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 1: longer we do this, the more we realize we don't

1255
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:14,559
Speaker 1: really know anything about We know some things about some things,

1256
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:17,080
Speaker 1: and we just want to make sure that our podcast

1257
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:21,400
Speaker 1: and we are as informed as possible and we get right. Yeah. So,

1258
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:23,639
Speaker 1: if you know something about something, send us an email

1259
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 1: and we'll add you to the list. Put experts in

1260
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:28,720
Speaker 1: the subject line, please, and I will get it yep,

1261
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:33,280
Speaker 1: and then we'll take care of that. Yeah, we're looking exerts.

1262
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:36,680
Speaker 1: You've actually gotten a single one? Yeah, we have. The

1263
01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:38,680
Speaker 1: only other thing I will say about the experts is

1264
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:41,760
Speaker 1: we've We've said this before, but if you want to,

1265
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 1: you want to help out. Please understand that we typically

1266
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:47,800
Speaker 1: need a couple of day turnaround on response. So if

1267
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:50,040
Speaker 1: you're gonna sit on an email, you don't check your

1268
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:52,240
Speaker 1: email but once every couple of weeks or whatever the

1269
01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:53,920
Speaker 1: case may be. Or if you don't think you have

1270
01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:57,720
Speaker 1: the time, we appreciate the thought, but just you know,

1271
01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:00,519
Speaker 1: don't don't sign up because we're gonna try and get

1272
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:06,560
Speaker 1: really quick responses. Yeah, idea and research the last minute.

1273
01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:09,040
Speaker 1: Will I don't even say we do all of our

1274
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 1: research at the last minute. As much as we are

1275
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:14,760
Speaker 1: researching up to the last minute, we realized we don't

1276
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:18,120
Speaker 1: know something at the last minute, we do he quick?

1277
01:15:18,160 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 1: Can you google that crap? Right? What's Wikipedia saying? All right? Wikipedia, Wikipedia.

1278
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:28,840
Speaker 1: We're gonna go ahead and we're gonna wrap this one up.

1279
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:31,240
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to us to this time,

1280
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:34,759
Speaker 1: and we will talk to you again next week. Mr Salt.

1281
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:48,960
Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, okay, don't take that the

1282
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:52,679
Speaker 1: wrong way. She wasn't really saying she's a process. Thank you, Joe.

1283
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:55,400
Speaker 1: That's what what I meant. I meant I'm a single female.

1284
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:58,639
Speaker 1: Don't worry about it. Just find a moment of female.

1285
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 1: You getting any ideas here her She's well armed. Don't

1286
01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 1: even try it. Yeah, guys armed to the teeth.