1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Sally Yates made her eagerly anticipated appearance before a Senate 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: panel yesterday. Yates was briefly the acting Attorney General before 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: being fired when she refused to enforce the first version 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,079 Speaker 1: of Donald Trump's travel band. But the main focus of 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: yesterday's testimony was Michael Flynn, Trump's former national security advisor. 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: Yates said she told White House lawyers that Flynn was 7 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 1: providing misleading information about contacts he had had with the 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: Russian government. She said she was worried about the possibility 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,159 Speaker 1: that Flynn could be blackmailed by Russia. And he and 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: he said, and she said, she didn't know what the 11 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: White House did with that information. With us to talk 12 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: about Sally yates testimony is Alex Whiting. He is a 13 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: professor at Harvard Law School and William Banks. He's a 14 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: director of the Institute for National Security and counter Terrorism 15 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: at Syracuse University Law School. Welcome to you both, um, Bill, 16 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: let me start with you, and let's try to focus, 17 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: at least initially on on the Michael Flynn portion of 18 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: the the testimony. What was the biggest thing you would 19 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: say you you picked up that you learned from yesterday's testimony. Well, 20 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: I guess we've got confirmation that the White House Council 21 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 1: was told in no uncertain terms by by miss Yates 22 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: that indeed there was a serious problem with the veracity 23 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: of of Flynn's statements, and those statements were being repeated 24 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: by other White House officials, including the Vice President. And 25 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: therefore there was from that date about eighteen days where 26 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: Flynn continued to serve before he was asked her to 27 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: resign by President Trump. Alex, assuming all that is is accurate, 28 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: is that eighteen days too long? Should the White House 29 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: Council have done something quicker with that information? Um? Yes, yes, 30 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: I think so. UM. I think that the eighteen days 31 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: is pretty alarming. And there were other details that the 32 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: that Saliates revealed yesterday that I thought helped paint a 33 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: picture of um, a lack of preparedness in the White 34 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: House and a kind of you might say, an amateur, 35 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: amateurish approach to this problem. They they didn't seem to 36 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: quite grasp what the problem was. She she had to 37 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: explain to them several times why this was a problem 38 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: for for the national security, for the White House. Um. 39 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: The White House Council said, why why is the ass 40 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: At one point after the first conversation, why is the 41 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: White House interested in this? Why do you care? And 42 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: she had already explained that there was a concern about blackmail. So, um, 43 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: I think that both the eighteen days and the details 44 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: of the conversation paint this picture of a kind of 45 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,679 Speaker 1: either a cavalier attitude or just a kind of failure 46 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: to grasp and that kind of incompetence in the White 47 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: House about what this all meant. Bill, which what should 48 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: have happened? So she she met with with White House 49 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: Council McGain and I think a couple other people from 50 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: the White House Council's office. What should he have done 51 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: with this information, assuming that it was portrayed to him 52 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: the way she described it, He should have gone directly 53 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: through the President the Vice President and explained, as Alex suggested, 54 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: this seriousness of the matter. He was not only vulnerable 55 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: to blackmail, but the subject matter of the of the discussion, 56 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 1: whether or not he was talking about sanctions against the 57 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: Russians that have been imposed by the Obama administration, was 58 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: of critical national security issue and as you know, a 59 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: matter of continuing investigation by the FBI. So they should 60 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: have had direct confrontation explained to the president the seriousness 61 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: of the issue and that it made the entire administration 62 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: into the country of vulnerable uh to Russian interference or 63 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: even blackmail, as Alex suggested. Alex News came out yesterday 64 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: that that President Obama when they met, when he met 65 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: with Donald Trump right aftic the election, warned Donald Trump 66 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: about Mike Michael Flynn. What do you make of that 67 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: that revelation, Well, that that that again adds to the picture. 68 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: And and just to follow up on what Bill has 69 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: just said, um uh you know Sean Spicer in February 70 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: after um, after Flynn was finally fired on February UM, 71 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: Sean Spicer said that that in fact, the White House 72 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: Council had briefed the President and the President and the 73 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,559 Speaker 1: White House Council determined that um, that there was nothing wrong. 74 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: So UM. So again they both the warning from from 75 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: President Obama and the information from the acting Attorney General 76 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: together didn't seem to make an impression on President Trump. Um. 77 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: The only thing that ultimately made an impression was when 78 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: the information became public and it became a political story. Um. 79 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: And so this wasn't firing because of the national security 80 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: concerns and the legal exposure and those problems. Um, it 81 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: became a firing because of the political firestorm that occurred 82 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,559 Speaker 1: when the information leaked. In her Senate testimony yesterday, Sally 83 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: Yates said there were two reasons why she told the 84 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,239 Speaker 1: White House that Michael Flynn was providing misleading information about 85 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: his contacts with Russian officials. Boy felt like it was 86 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: critical that we get this information to the White House because, 87 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,239 Speaker 1: in part because the Vice President was unknownly making false 88 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: statements to the public, and because we believed that General 89 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: Flynn was compromised with respect to the Russians. Our guests, 90 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: Sir William Banks of Syracuse University Law School and Alex 91 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: Whiting of Harvard Law School. UM, a question for you both, 92 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: and Bill start with you. She Saliates a couple of 93 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: times made reference to underlying conduct by Michael Flynn. She said, 94 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: because there's classified information involved, she couldn't go into it. 95 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: What indications do we have about what she might have 96 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: been talking about there, Well, it's pretty clearly the the 97 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: discussions that Flynn may have had with the Russian ambassador 98 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: about the sanctions Obama administration and post sanctions late last year, 99 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: late in response to Russian interference in the election. Of course, 100 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: that investigation is a separate investigation being conducted by the FBI. 101 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: It's ongoing. If Flynn did talk to the Russian ambassador, 102 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: of course, that raises a series of different legal and 103 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: practical and policy questions, and she couldn't reveal the nature 104 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: of those because the information is still classified. The separate 105 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: investigation of courses is about the the election interference itself. 106 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: Is that your take as well, Alex, is that is 107 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: that kind of the most serious potential thing that Michael 108 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: Flynn might be accused of doing. Well? I agree. I 109 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: agree with Bill Um. I think that's what she was 110 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: referring to. There there are there is one other aspect 111 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: that was kind of hid a little bit hidden in 112 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,799 Speaker 1: the testimony, which is um the question of whether whether 113 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: he lied to the FBI when he was interviewed two 114 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: days earlier on January. And if you put the whole 115 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: picture together, it seems likely that he did because Um 116 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: Saliates had acts knew what Flynn had said on January 117 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: before she went to the White House on January, she 118 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: was given a briefing about what he said in his interview, 119 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: and I have to believe that if Flynn was forthcoming 120 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: in that interview, the trip to the White House would 121 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: have been very different. She would have gone to the 122 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: lighthouse perhaps to say, look, you need to get on 123 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: the same page, because he's telling us one thing and 124 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: he's telling the Vice president another thing, and you need 125 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: to clear this up. Instead, she went and said that 126 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: he's lying to the Vice president or suggested that, and 127 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: which kind of indicates to me that he also lied 128 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: to the FBI. UM, and that would of course be 129 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: a very serious charge. UM. Since since that episode, UM, 130 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: there have been other disclosures about his failure to UM 131 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,679 Speaker 1: register as a foreign agent. That's something that Bill still 132 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: has spoken about and he knows more about than I do. UM, 133 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: and also failing to disclose payments from foreign governments on 134 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: security and in security clearance forms, which would also be 135 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: a crime. So, but the pencil crimes are kind of 136 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: piling up here Bill. Before the hearing, Donald Trump put 137 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: out a tweet and he said asks asks Sally Yates 138 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: under oath if she knows how classified information got into 139 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: the newspapers. Soon after she explained it to the White 140 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: House Council. UM, she was asked about that, she said, no, 141 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: I I didn't do that. This issue of who leaked 142 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 1: the information about Michael Flynn, Republicans are using that. They're 143 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: clearly trying to divert attention from the other the other issues. 144 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: But is that not a kind of a serious underlying question. 145 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: There have been all sorts of of leaks recently. Is 146 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: that something that legitimately people should be asking about, you know, leaks. 147 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: It's not a recent occurrence. Republican administration's leak, Democratic administration's leak. 148 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: Some of us remember President Reagan complaining about leaks up 149 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: to his keyster in his own colorful language. Leaks are 150 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: as old as the republic. So certainly Yates didn't leak. Uh. 151 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: Mr Clapper, who was sitting seating next to her at 152 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: the hearing, said that he himself did not leak. He 153 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: wasn't even aware of much of the information that she 154 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: knew about. Because the FBI's path the justice, of course, 155 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily include the Director of National Intelligence. So the 156 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: leaking is is a concern, but it's inevitable. Uh. And 157 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: the real concern here, is Alex said, is the false 158 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: statements that Mr Flynn had made in the in the 159 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: misconduct before and after he resigned as National Security Advisor. 160 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: Alex What what is gonna happen next? What we look 161 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: for next? In this this whole thing. You laid out 162 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: a lot of potentially very serious charges that Michael Flynn 163 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: could be facing. Where do you see this going? Well, Um, 164 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: of course this the theac A lot is unknown. We 165 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: see just the tip of the iceberg. So it's hard. 166 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: It's hard to speculate, and there are a lot of 167 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: different paths and and and avenues for this investigation. But 168 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: for Mike Flynn, I think what's going to happen is 169 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: the Justice Department will well at some point conclude its 170 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 1: investigation and we'll have to assess um and making a 171 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: number of judgments about um, how willful his actions were, 172 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: to what extemptive violated if if he did exactly violate 173 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: the law, because we don't really know, um uh. And 174 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: then they'll make a decision about whether to charge him, 175 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,239 Speaker 1: and whether to see if he'd be interested in cooperating 176 00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: um uh and giving information and the investigational proceed that way. UM. 177 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: I think the chances of Flynn getting charged are are 178 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: higher now, uh, And I would be very I wouldn't 179 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: be surprised if that's where this head um. What the 180 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: exact crimes are and the contours of that and when 181 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: are are still not completely clear. I want to thank 182 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: our guests. That was Alex Whiting speaking. He's a professor 183 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: at Harvard Law School, and William Banks, he's a director 184 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: of the Institute for National Security and counter Terrorism at 185 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: Syracuse University Law School. They were talking with me about 186 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: Sally Yates testimony having to do with Michael Flynn yesterday. 187 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: Clearly a story that will keep going. One other piece 188 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 1: of interesting news out today a first reporter by Pro Publica, 189 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: FBI Director Comy apparently made a serious overstatement in his 190 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: testimony last week about Hillary Clinton's emails. She he said 191 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: that she had forwarded thousands of them to her husband's computer, 192 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: and uh, well, the ProPublica has been being told that 193 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: now it was actually only a few emails