1 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 1: From Bloomberg News and iHeartRadio. It's the Big Take. I'm 2 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: Westkasova today India's march toward marriage equality. This month, India's 3 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: Supreme Court will hear arguments in a closely watched case 4 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: on whether to allow same sex couples to marry. The 5 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: court's already affirmed are right to Privacy for All, which 6 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: abolished a colonial era law that made gay sex a crime, 7 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: and it expanded social welfare benefits for what it called 8 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: atypical families. To those arguing in favor, marriage equality is 9 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: the logical and inevitable next step. I want to get married. 10 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: I want to get married for there isn't that many 11 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: people in this country and everywhere. They believe that one 12 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: day they'll meet somebody who they really love and you know, 13 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: they'll be able to get married. I want to be 14 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: able to do that. That's Additi Anan. She and her 15 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: partner are among several same sex couples who petition the 16 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: court for the right to marry. If the judges rule 17 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: in their favor, the effects will be far reaching, and 18 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: not only within India itself. India's size and its political 19 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: and economic influence in Asia means the ruling will be 20 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: felt well beyond its borders. My colleagues Muniza Nabie and 21 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: Kai Schultz are following this case and they are here 22 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: with me now from New Delhi. Munisa, can you give 23 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: us an overview of the case that's now before the court. 24 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: So what's the case that is before the court is 25 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: several couples who are asking the court shortly after India 26 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: legalized or rather decriminalized homosexuality, they're asking to have access 27 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: to marriage equality. So these couples are saying, we are 28 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: no longer now criminals in the eyes of the and 29 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: it's time for the law and the country to go 30 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: one step further and allow us those rights and privileges 31 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: that come with marriage. These include things like adoption, being 32 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: able to be each other's next of kin, have each 33 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: other on their insurance, and all of those things that 34 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: come with marriage, the good and the bad. And how 35 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: did this all come to be? It's sort of built 36 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: up from the decades long fight to first decriminalize homosexuality 37 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: in India, which came to pass only in twenty and eighteen. 38 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: You know, for more than one hundred and fifty years 39 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: before that, it was a crime to openly declare that 40 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: you were gay in this country, and even though prosecutions 41 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: were read was a huge tool of harassment for the 42 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: gay community. It created fear and a sort of impunity 43 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: for police to come and harass you should they choose to. So. 44 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: Once that sort of had come about, and that was 45 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: a huge moment for the MGBTQ community in India. Once 46 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: that had been achieved, it seemed the next obvious thing. 47 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,679 Speaker 1: What a surprise that everybody is the speed at which 48 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: this has come. In many countries where marriage equality has come, 49 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: or to fight for marriage equality has come, it's been 50 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: a much slower process. In India. It's been just a 51 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: couple of years between decriminalization and fighting to get the 52 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: rise to marriage equality. Kai Minisa described how quickly this 53 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: all happened. How was it able to change so fast? 54 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: The speed has been remarkable for I think everybody that 55 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: we've spoken to, and people have put forward a few 56 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: theories for why they think the evolution has been so accelerated. 57 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: India is a fairly Englicized country. It has a large diaspora, 58 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: it has a large English speaking population. It's very much 59 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: a country where people follow international media. So there was 60 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: an awareness I think of rights movements in other parts 61 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: of the world, including the US, that's helped to kind 62 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: of create this consciousness around these issues. Secondly, India is 63 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: led by a fairly progressive Supreme Court. The bench as 64 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: it currently stands, is pretty progressive on social issues. So 65 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: in recent years, they've allowed women to enter sex segregated temples. 66 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: They've extended legal recognition to transgender people who can identify 67 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: a so called their genders. That's how it's characterized in India, 68 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: and so that's provided some of the contexts I think 69 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: for the speed what happened between decriminalization and fighting for 70 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: marriage equality has been quite a seismic shift in how 71 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: Indian culture has viewed LGBTQ people. Twenty years ago, a 72 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: film that had lesbian characters, you know, inflamed such passions 73 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: that movie theaters were set on fire and you know, 74 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: the movie had to be pulled out off screens. Now 75 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: we're seeing advertisements for two women buying a home together, 76 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: buying wedding jewelry together, which is very iconic to Indian culture, 77 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: and cinema is making nuanced, you know, not the caricatured 78 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: sort of homosexual characters of the movies of the nineties 79 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 1: which was almost sort of like the the buffoonish character 80 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: our Bollywood is making films with very sort of sensitive 81 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 1: portrayals of gay characters, so all of that has also 82 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: changed in the interim between decriminalization and pushing for marriage equality. 83 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: Some of the people we spoke to have said this 84 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: that seeing all of these things change, being able to 85 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: see for the first time representations of themselves on screen 86 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: and around them in popular culture, which was brand new, 87 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: also allowed them to sort of feel that the time 88 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: had come to push for more. So to give an 89 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: idea of you know, what this journey has been like 90 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: for LGBTQ people in India. We spoke to this couple 91 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: Adity and Susan, and it's sort of their story really 92 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: is the story of what it has meant in India 93 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: for so many people to grapple with their own gayness, 94 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: find themselves sort of legally full citizens finally, and then 95 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: find themselves in this sort of amazing place where they 96 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: can reach for marriage equality, which seemed even a decade 97 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: ago to them completely out of reach. And in other 98 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: team Susan's story we find reflections of all of that. 99 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: So they talk about how as young women coming out 100 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: even to themselves was hard. And here is Aditya Nan 101 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: speaking about this to Bloomberg. Quite Jusan and I moved 102 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: in within a few months of I think a few 103 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: weeks of meeting each other, and you know, once we 104 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: actually started dating, Susan quit her job, she moved out 105 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: of our house, moved into my apartment in Bombay, and 106 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: we got a dog. So I would say we started 107 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: seeing each other in October and by March of next 108 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: year we were already living together. Our friends and family 109 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: were extremely supportive, extremely supportive. Though it was fairly nerve 110 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: racking in a difficult, difficult thing to come out because 111 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: of our own fears and all the things that we 112 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: had been dealing with all our lives. But it was 113 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: remarkable once we actually came out to our families on 114 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: both sides, Susan to her mom that night and then 115 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: me to my parents the next day, it was remarkable 116 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: how supportive they've been throughout Extraordinarily. My grandmother, who is 117 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: in her nineties, is not just a supporter. I mean 118 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: it's completely organic, her relationship with Susan, her relationship with 119 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: our son. So it's been a really, really wonderful and 120 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: I know sometimes a very rare experience to have this 121 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: kind of support, and we've been very lucky to have it. 122 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: So much of the contacts behind these journeys comes from 123 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: a place of pain for people. India is a country 124 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: where you can still very easily be harassed for being gay. 125 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: You have a few legal protections, and the workforce in 126 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: many instances sexual salt is common. Many of these challenges 127 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: that come from living openly in countries across the world 128 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: are common in India, and so the fear there persists. 129 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,559 Speaker 1: And I think that that's something that many people feel 130 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: marriage equality will help to abate, is the idea that 131 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: they're different or separate or other from other Indians in society. 132 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: Let's hear from Susan Da. She's a deity's partner and 133 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: she also spoke to Bloomberg Quick Take at the time 134 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and we decided to have 135 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: children is when we thought that marriage would be a 136 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: logical next step for us. And in doing that, in 137 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: having and raising a child, now we realize more so 138 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: the lack of a lot of things that we don't 139 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: have today, legal rights over each other, the ability to 140 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: you know, have a bank account, to own assets, together 141 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: to be a legal parent to a child. These are 142 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: all things that one either takes for granted or doesn't 143 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,719 Speaker 1: think about till you're faced with it. Key is it 144 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: possible to measure how the Indian people feel about this? 145 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: Is same sex marriage popular? Do people want it? It's 146 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: hard to say precisely. We've spoken to lawyers who have 147 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: said that with decriminalization it was a fairly easy pill 148 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: for people to swallow. They could understand and get on 149 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: board pretty quickly with the idea that people didn't want 150 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: to be considered a criminal in front of the law. 151 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: And I think it was also framed as a very 152 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: private act. Marriage is a much more public institution. It 153 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: holds such an important space in the Indian consciousness, and 154 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: so there was some concern that the speed was so 155 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: quick that perhaps it was almost too quick. What we 156 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: found though, is that public polling varies pretty widely. So 157 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: in the months after decriminalization would have been in twenty 158 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 1: eighteen twenty nineteen, Poles found that anywhere from about a 159 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: quarter to more than two thirds of Indians supported same 160 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: sex marriage, and so it doesn't give a full picture 161 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: of support on the ground. But what we do know 162 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: so far is there have been no public protests that 163 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: have taken on any sort of grandeur or size or 164 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: importance in the media or in bigger and urban centers, 165 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: and so so far there hasn't been that pushback that 166 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: some people are fearing there might be, munisa because India 167 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: has such a large population and it's so influential in 168 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: Asia and around the rest of the world. If same 169 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: sex marriage becomes law, you write in the story that 170 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: this will have far reaching effects beyond India itself. How 171 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: is that? I mean, For one thing, one hopes that 172 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: it sets a legal precedent for other countries to follow 173 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: a fur the more conservative cultures to follow it. It 174 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 1: creates a blueprint. But also because in the region, even 175 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: wealthier sort seemingly more advanced economies so like Singapore in Japan, 176 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: for example, haven't provided this right to their citizens. Presumably 177 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: once India, or if India rather were to make marriage 178 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: equality or possibility, it would definitely sort of draw talent 179 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: to India, people who would feel safer working here, living here, 180 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: being able to get their partners on visas and not 181 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: having to sort of jump through hoops pretending that they 182 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: were moving in or living with a friend so all 183 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: of those things would make India sort of a stand 184 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: out in the region where this access to equality of 185 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: where basic equality hasn't been made possible so far. And 186 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: to add to Muniza's point, the scale of the judgment 187 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: is enormous. India is, by some estimates already the world's 188 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: most populous nation, and so to legalize same sex marriage 189 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: would extend benefits to more than one point four billion people. 190 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: To get a sense of the scale of this would 191 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: more than double the number of people globally with marriage 192 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: equality rights as most of the G twenty this year. 193 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: As well, India's government, which is led by Prime Minister Narendramodi, 194 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: could use this ruling as evidence that the country isn't 195 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: as progressive on minority rights, for instance. That's a criticism 196 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: that's often made by Western governments. And so there's a 197 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: political mileage that could be gained from this ruling as 198 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: well that goes beyond the leverage that the ruling could 199 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: provide in terms of attracting talent from other parts of 200 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: Asia or other parts of the world. Our conversation continues 201 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 1: after the break, Muniza, We've talked about the significance of 202 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: this case before India's Supreme Court and what it could 203 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: mean both inside the country and around the world. Really, 204 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: let's focus now on what's happening outside the court. What 205 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: are various political groups within the country saying about this issue. 206 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: To begin with, we'll hear what the government actually things 207 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: in a few days. Their affidavit to the court with 208 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: the you know, the Law Ministry stating the government's position 209 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: will be made available because the government has to take 210 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: its stand before the Supreme Court, so we know more 211 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: specifically what the government has to say. The interesting thing 212 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: is there hasn't been very much said at all, and 213 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: that can be extrapolated as a positive thing. I think 214 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: the positive has been that there hasn't been any backlash. Really, 215 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: I suspect some of it as the government is waiting 216 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: and watching. It's a crucial election year, so if it 217 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: feels like this might not be socially acceptable, who knows. 218 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: Largely what will be interesting to see is the two 219 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: elements where this ruling could go. One is how it 220 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: affects Hindu marriage. Marriages in India a guided by personal 221 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: religious laws, so they Hindus have the Hindu Marriage Act, 222 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: the Muslims have Muslim personal Law and then there is 223 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: the civil code under which interfaith marriage has happened. We 224 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: know that the ruling BJP has previously opposed broaden in 225 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: the Hindu Marriage Act, which applies to most of the population. 226 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: Officials have argued that including same sex couples would legitimize 227 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: what they've called a particular human conduct and that it 228 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: would run against Indian values. Lawyers generally expect there to 229 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: be some opposition within the government, but that's not necessarily 230 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: being framed as a bad thing. And to sidesteps some 231 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: of these issues, most of the petitions appearing before the 232 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: Supreme Court fall under a different marriage Act, which is 233 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: used for secular and inner religious unions. Lawyers hope that 234 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: this route will avoid some of the landmines that are 235 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: associated with amending laws specifically bound with religion, and they're 236 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: building their case around the idea that marriage equality is 237 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: ultimately about fundamental rights under India's constitution, that it's not 238 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: necessarily a moral issue. Muniza. More than a century ago, 239 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: you write that India was much more tolerant than it 240 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: has been, and that that is really a legacy of colonialism, 241 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: that it's something that the British brought with them can 242 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: you describe how that happened and how it played out. 243 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: Hindu mythology is very very open when it comes to sexuality. 244 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: There are you know, gods that change gender, men become women, 245 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: men have babies. It's all very fluid. Even for the 246 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: many hundred years of Mughal Muslim rule in India, erotic 247 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: homo erotic poetry, same sex love, none of it was criminalized. 248 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: And then, you know, so in eighteen sixty one when 249 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: the British took over rule of India, that is when 250 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: the law was codified and drafted to make homosexuality a crime. 251 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: Academics and experts who've been looking at this will say that, 252 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: you know, while modern India India today will often people 253 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: who oppose gay marriage, for example, will critique gay marriage 254 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: as a Western import, but what really is a Western 255 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: import is the criminalization of homosexuality, and that ancient and 256 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: even medieval Indian culture was very open and accepting, if 257 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: not sort of only embracing it. Ki The Supreme Court 258 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: is set to hear this case later this month. What 259 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: do you expect Are there signs of which way the 260 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: court may ultimately come down. The Supreme Court is a 261 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: fairly progressive institution in India, and it's led by a 262 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: largely progressive Chief Justice. Last year, the court offered a 263 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: hint at how the case might go, ruling that same 264 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: sex couples and other what they've called non traditional families 265 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: are entitled to social welfare benefits. And so I think 266 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: there's an optimism in the legal community that the ruling 267 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: could be a positive one. What we're waiting on is 268 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: to understand better the government's position in all of this. 269 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: But ultimately, the Supreme Court is an independent institution. The 270 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: Chief Justice has the power to choose the bench, and 271 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: lawyers are optimistic that unless there are widespread protests against 272 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: the marriage equality case, that a ruling could come as 273 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: early as this summer this fall. Muniza nacbe Kai show, 274 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: thanks so much for speaking with me today. Thank you, 275 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: Thank you us when we come back our broader look 276 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: at same sex marriage, where is it allowed and where 277 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: is it still outlawed? India isn't alone in considering same 278 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: sex marriage. In recent years, several nations have legalized it, 279 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: but there are many places where same sex relationships are 280 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: still against the law. For a global picture of where 281 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: things stand, Gert Schatten Sander joins me from Geneva, Switzerland. 282 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: They're the director of programs at ILGA World, which advocates 283 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: for the rights of LGBTI people. Gert Chatton, could you 284 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: give us a little tour of the world. Same sex 285 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: marriage has been expanding in many places, but not in all. 286 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: Can you tell us where it's legal and where it's not. 287 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: We currently have thirty three UN member states with full 288 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: marriage equality, thirty four with other forms of what we 289 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: call civil partnerships. The latest countries that have introduced marriage 290 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: equality in twenty twenty one was Chile. Twenty twenty two, 291 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: it was Switzerland, Slovenia and Cuba, and this year so 292 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: far it's Andra and I believe there are other discussions 293 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: happening in Japan as well. Are there regions of the 294 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: world where you're seeing movement forward? In other places where 295 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: either there is no movement or there's active moves against 296 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: marriage equality. If we look at the question just purely 297 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: from a marriage perspective marriage equality perspective, yes, there are 298 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: certain moves towards that. A lot of the discussions or 299 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: narratives around decriminalization of same sex intimacy, or the fear 300 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: around decriminalization, is that it would lead to marriage equality 301 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: and the call full marriage equality. We are hearing from 302 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: governments in parts of West Africa where there's not even 303 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: a ban on same sex intimacy, they have no laws. 304 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: They are thinking of introducing those bands on same sex 305 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: intimacy to ensure that there is no marriage equality. So 306 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: it's going the opposite way. This is in parts of 307 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: Africa and Asia. We also see even in the USA 308 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: with versus Wade, the whole of the argument around same 309 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: sex marriage was pinned on the decision around Rowways is Wade. 310 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: So what you see is that it's not so much 311 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: the attack on same sex marriage or marriage equality. You 312 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: see that it's a chipping away at these well fought 313 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: rights that have been gained so forth that eventually lead 314 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 1: to marriage equality. On one side you have a block, 315 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: and the other side you have a move which could 316 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: then send marriage equality backwards as well. And it's not 317 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: one region is leading, it's different patterns. I think it's 318 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: always best to avoid looking at the world in a 319 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 1: homogeneous way, or in different regions in a homogeneous way. 320 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: And in fact, one of the most disturbing patterns is 321 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: actually coming from North America and Western Europe. A where 322 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: you see these growing anti trans anti gender rhetorics which 323 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: could definitely play into the same sex marriage equality rights 324 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 1: as well. You mentioned Cuba as being a country that 325 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: has advanced marriage equality last year. Is there a pattern 326 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: at all between democracies and non democracies when it comes 327 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: to enacting these laws. Indeed, I think that's something very 328 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: interesting that there is data that is correlated to this 329 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: and that we find that they're where there's a higher 330 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: account or higher evaluation of democracies, there is more freedoms 331 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: afforded towards lgbtr Q plus people. Indeed, in the case 332 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: of Cuba, that is the anomaly in that sort of discussion. 333 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: You know, we are seeing right now, in particular at 334 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: a time when we are seeing growing anti gender, anti 335 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: rights rhetorics there are linked to anti democratic movements, anti 336 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: bodily autonomy rhetoric there all do go hand in hand 337 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: with a growing threat on democracy. A countrary to what 338 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 1: I was saying earlier, there are patterns of emerging there 339 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: is you know, there is the domino effect. Yes, we 340 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: see one country and then the others following. However, that 341 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: does not mean every single country will follow because there's 342 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: still many parts of the world, especially in Asia and 343 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: in Africa, punitive laws against same sex intimacy. So whilst 344 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: you will see this happening, it won't guarantee that every 345 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: single country will then follow suit. There has to be 346 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: certain enabling factors and enabling conditions. So in authoritarian states 347 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 1: you see less tolerance for both same sexual relationships and 348 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: marriage equality. Indeed, that's a growing pattern that we have seen, yes, 349 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: and I think there's data around that, especially from our 350 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: partners and members from the Global Council of Equality that 351 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: have done great work around this, who have tied work 352 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: on democracy and LGBT ACUPUS rights, and in fact there 353 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: has been other research that has been done, including not 354 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: just on democracy, but on economic growth as well. We 355 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: see that when there's a percentage increase in rights or 356 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: more rights being afforded in particular to marginalized populations, especially 357 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: those who identify as LGBT ACUPUS, we see a percentage 358 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: of growth in GDP as well. This is some great 359 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: research that's come out from the US and from the 360 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 1: Netherlands grid chart and seeing all the change that's happening 361 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: all around the world. When you look ahead, what do 362 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: you see for the future of marriage equality. We are 363 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: moving towards marriage equality, but I would like to preface this. 364 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen ILGA World we produce what it's called 365 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: the State Sponsored Homophobia Report. In our report, marriage equality 366 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: was seen as the gold standard. Does the go to 367 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: you know, we've reached it. However, in twenty nineteen our 368 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: team decided against that and said no, this should not 369 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: be the goal standard because it sends a very one 370 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: sided view. So what we said that the goal standard 371 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: should be is constitutional rights. So once lgbt acuplus rights 372 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,479 Speaker 1: are enshrined in the constitution, we have better chances of 373 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: ensuring equality for all the journey towards that could be 374 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: one route to that is marriage equality. Indeed, we saw 375 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: last year and the Netherlands have included or introduced now 376 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: in their constitution lgbt acuplus protections. So I think some 377 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: of this narrative around marriage equality is very very important. 378 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: But also we cannot just focus on that alone. It 379 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: cannot be our end goal. Our end goal is constitutional 380 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: protections and ensure it. And because once we're in the 381 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: constitution there are constitutional laws are harder to change, whereas 382 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: marriage equality laws, they could change from the next five 383 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: ten years, and we indeed are going to see a 384 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: positive direction, but it shouldn't the end point for us, Er, 385 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: Chaut and Sounder, thanks so much for speaking with me, 386 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: Thank you for inviting me, Thanks for listening to us 387 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: here at The Big Take. It's a daily podcast from 388 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from my Heart Radio, 389 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen, 390 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: and we'd love to hear from you. Email us questions 391 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 1: or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. The 392 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: supervising producer of The Big Take is Vicky Urgolina. Our 393 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: senior producer is Catherine Fink. Federica Romanello is our producer. 394 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Zenob Sidiki. Raphael I'm seely is 395 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: our engineer. Our original music was composed by Leo Sidrin 396 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: I'm Wescasova. We'll be back on Monday with another Big Take. 397 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: Have a great weekend.