1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline and Caroline, I feel like we're 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: gonna be so redundant even saying this, because our listeners 5 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: are about to hear our intro all over again. Well, 6 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: but it's great that you're going to hear it again 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: because it's actually interactive and kind of special. It's very special. 8 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: So today you're going to hear our live Stuff Mom 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: Never Told You show from south By Southwest. And to 10 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: any of you who are listening to this right now 11 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: who were there at speak Easy in downtown Austin, thank 12 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: you so much for coming. It was a ton of fun. 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 1: It was a ton of fun, and it was it's 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: always so great to meet you guys, um and to 15 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: remember that they're amazing people out there, men and women 16 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: are like who listen to us, that it's not to 17 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: us in this padded cell of a recording studio. And 18 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: I was so glad that so many people got to 19 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: hear all of the amazing things that our guests, Nicole 20 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: Cabrera had to say. And since Nicole is going to 21 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: introduce herself in the live show in which we talk 22 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: about sexism and science communication with a focus on astronomy 23 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: for a reason that will make itself very known very soon. Caroline, 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: should we just dive right in. Let's dive right in. Alright, folks, 25 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: So here you go live from south By, Southwest. It's 26 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: stuff Mom never told you. Since this is being recorded, 27 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna start. We're really just gonna pretend that we're 28 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: all in the stuff Mom never told you studio together, 29 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: although be glad that we aren't because it's a tiny room. 30 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: It would be very uncomfortable. Um, but this is our 31 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you studio today, and we're gonna 32 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: start our show the same way we start all of 33 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: our podcast us. We're gonna say our names and then 34 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: when I point to you, say and I'm and then 35 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: say your name and it will sound, you know, just 36 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: like hot mess. You'll love it. It's gonna add to 37 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: the effect. All right, you ready, I'm homeless, like it's 38 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: a steeringmail. Let's do it, okay, cool, Hello, and welcome 39 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Kristin, and I'm Caroline, and I'm Nicole. 40 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: I caught all of those names and I'll remember every 41 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: one of them. That's so good. Uh. So today we're 42 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: talking about sexism and science communication, and we're gonna let 43 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: Nicole talk a little bit about UM. Why it's so 44 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,519 Speaker 1: relevant to talking about it here at south By Southwest 45 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: Interactive because technology is a huge part of these conversations 46 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: that are going on. So, first of all, Nicole, would 47 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: you just introduce yourself to our wonderful audience. Sure. My 48 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: name is Nicole Cabrera Salazar and I am a PhD 49 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: student at George Say University. I study astronomy and if 50 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: everything goes well, I'll be graduating with my PhD at 51 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: the end of this year, so I will be Dr 52 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: Cabrera Salazar. And so tell us why beyond just hanging 53 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: out with us, you're here at SALPA. This is actually 54 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: the reason, Oh I flew all this way. Um, Well, 55 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: I have a panel. Um. That's it's not just my 56 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: panel actually, but Jen Goldbeck Um, who's a TED fellow 57 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: and my friend a summer ash We're doing a panel 58 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: tomorrow at I think five o'clock if I'm not mistaken. 59 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: On UM it's called hashtag distracting lye sexy, and it 60 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: has to do with how to fight science sexism on 61 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: social media. Um, and we're gonna talk about all the 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: different Twitter campaigns that have started to fight all of 63 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: the science sexism that y'all have been hearing about recently. 64 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, so we're gonna kind of give a little 65 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: intro to some of that stuff that you're gonna be 66 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: talking about even more in depth tomorrow. Um. But first 67 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: we want to tell our meat cute story with the 68 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: hole because it involves a wonderful email to mom stuff 69 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com, where you can also 70 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: email as cute things. Yes. Um, okay, So we had 71 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: done a two part episode on women in astronomy. We 72 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: got really into it. It was originally gonna be one episode, 73 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,559 Speaker 1: but then we had to make a chick contained because 74 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: it's that much sexism. Um. So we got this email 75 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: from a fabulous lady named Nicole and she said, you 76 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: mentioned in your podcast that you were wondering if there 77 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: would be any lady Neil de grass Tyson's anytime soon. 78 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: It just so happens that I'm getting my PhD in astronomy, 79 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: graduating next year and I'll be going into astronomy education 80 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: and public outreach. Sorry if this is embarrassing the same 81 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: sort of thing thel Degrass Tyson does, just on a 82 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: smaller scale. I'm not sure if I'll ever achieve this 83 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: kind of fame, but I'm super passionate about making astronomy 84 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: accessible to everyone, and I want to focus my career 85 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: on encouraging women and minorities to pursue STEM careers. So 86 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: how could we not reach out to Nicole also because 87 00:04:57,920 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: she was in Atlanta and be like, hey, let's be 88 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: friends and let's talk in Austin. UM. And Nicole has 89 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: a fantastic Ted Talk that you should absolutely watch after this, 90 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: and I, because I'm creepy, was watching it this morning 91 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: while I was doing my hair. Yeah, I was, Yeah, 92 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: I'm a fan, not too stalky. Um. And one thing 93 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: that jumped out to me Nicole was how you were 94 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: talking about being a feminist since you were eleven, which 95 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: I was like, dang impressive. Um, But it wasn't until 96 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: you really started pursuing STEM education higher education that it 97 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: awakened more of your intersectional awareness and the activism that 98 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: you're focused on now. So could you just kind of 99 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: take us through your journey with that? Um? So I 100 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: did talk about this a little bit in my in 101 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: my talk and it's that. Um, there's a lot of muchiesmore. 102 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: I grew up in Miami, so a lot of Hispanic people. Um. 103 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: I grew up in a place. Yeah, somebody from Miami's here. Um. 104 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: I was not the minority, right UM. My high school, 105 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: I think I might have known maybe two white people 106 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: growing up and that was just normal for me. Um. 107 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: And it was actually um, not until I came to Atlanta. 108 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: I went to a community college, first, Miami Dad College, 109 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: which was fantastic, and then I transferred to Georgia Tech, 110 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: which was my high school physics teachers alma mater, and 111 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: I wanted to go there because he went there. Um. 112 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: And then when I moved to Atlanta, I very quickly 113 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: realized that I was a minority there. Um and and 114 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: that was really shocking for me. Was a huge culture shock. 115 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: So I had I had been a feminist since I 116 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: was young, because you know, I had recognized all of 117 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: the ship that women have to go through, um in 118 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: my culture. But um, but as far as you know, 119 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: my race being any part of that, I just wasn't 120 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: aware until I had to, you know, especially at Georgia Tech, 121 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: where they're just very few women and very few minorities, 122 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: UM compared to the demographic of Atlanta compared to the 123 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: demographic of the United States. So that was just a 124 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: huge shock for me. Yeah, we'll tell us about how 125 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: what led you to astronomy in the first place. Well, UM, 126 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: so in high school I had this really encouraging physics teacher, 127 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: UM who was amazing, and he saw my potential and UM, 128 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: and he nurtured that, and so I decided I wanted 129 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: to be in physics. So I went to Georgia Tech 130 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: and I studied physics. And while I was there, UM, 131 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: my first semester there, I had an astronomy class and 132 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: it was awesome, and I thought, this is amazing. So 133 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: I started doing research with my astronomy professor and he said, 134 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: you know, you should apply for summer internships the National 135 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: Science Foundation. UM. They fund these UM internships over the 136 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: summer and you go and they pay you. And so 137 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: I applied to ten different ones that year and I 138 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: got into just one and it was in Hawaii. So 139 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: of course I wasn't going to turn that down. And 140 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: I got to live in Hawaii for three months. I 141 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: got to go up to the telescopes and use the telescopes. 142 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: I got to do full time astronomy research, and I 143 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I could. I could do this for life. 144 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: So that's how I decided to go into astronomy. And 145 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: then of course I applied to grad school and here, well, so, 146 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: but what is the intersection though, I mean we are 147 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: talking about intersectionality, but um, what is the intersection of 148 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: you studying astronomy and getting into the sciences and realizing, 149 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: oh wait, I actually want to go over to the 150 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: h advocacy activist arena? Right? So I had. As soon 151 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: as I came to Atlanta and I started my bachelor's 152 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: in physics, I realized that not only was I the 153 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: only woman in all of my physics classes, but I 154 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: was also the only minority. UM, so it was all 155 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: white dudes and me, and that can be really intimidating. 156 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: And I was just super aware of that, and so 157 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to connect with other women. And I always 158 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: had been passionate about science education and just like telling 159 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: people about astronomy because it's so cool. And I just 160 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: focused a lot of that energy trying to reach people 161 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: like me. So because I had a hard time, UM 162 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: going through that. UM. The year that I graduated, I 163 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: was the only woman graduating with a physics degree UM, 164 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure the only minority as well, just 165 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: from Georgia Tech. And so that had a huge effect 166 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: on me. And then grad school. I came in wanting 167 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: to be a researcher. UM. I was there for I 168 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: think four years and after that, UM, there was just 169 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: a lot of hardship that you have to go through 170 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: a lot of intimidating places and just um, you have 171 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: a different experience, I feel like than than when you're 172 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: a white dude who has tons of other white dudes 173 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: around him validating his experience. UM. And I had a 174 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: lot of just difficulties in my department UM or in 175 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: my experience as a grad student that I always thought 176 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: were like because I was a lady UM, but then 177 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: I realized that, um, some of the white women around 178 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: me were not experiencing the same things, right, And so 179 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: I was like, wow, like maybe race has something to 180 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: do with it too, And so that was really shocking 181 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: for me and UM and also just knowing that the 182 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: number of sacrifices I would have to make in my 183 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: life in order to make it as a professor, right, 184 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: Like you have to give so much up and you 185 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: have to you know, travel the world doing temporary research 186 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: positions and then publishing lots of papers, and that means 187 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: working around the talk and maybe putting off having a 188 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: family and putting off you know, having a good work 189 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: life balance. And I didn't want that. UM. And as 190 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,239 Speaker 1: a woman, you have to be much much more competitive 191 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: than your male counterparts in order to make it as far. 192 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: And I just thought, you know, it's not worth it 193 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: for me. I'm not I might get to the end 194 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: of that and be in my late thirties early forties 195 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,119 Speaker 1: and there might not be a job for me guaranteed. 196 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: So and then I'm gonna have to change careers at 197 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: that point. I'd rather do something that I'm also passionate 198 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: about and UM, that I can really dedicate my life 199 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: to enter, um dictate the terms of So in the 200 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: process of all this, I'm curious if you sort of 201 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: found your community people who had experienced similar things and 202 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: probably felt similarly isolated at all. Yeah. So, UM, it 203 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: wasn't until last year, not even a year ago. UM, 204 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: there was this huge, hugely different conference that was started, 205 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: UM called Inclusive Astronomy, and it was the very first 206 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: conference of its kind, and it had to do with 207 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, we're going to talk about these issues, all 208 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 1: the isms in astronomy, able ism, sexism, racism, and how 209 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,839 Speaker 1: it affects our young scientists and what what are we 210 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: gonna do about it too. So it was this like 211 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: three or four day conference. I took maybe seven grad 212 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: students with me. UM. It was in Nashville, and over 213 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: those three days, we learned about you know, systemic racism, 214 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: we learned about how sexism affects the numbers, and we 215 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: also put together recommendations for the community, the astronomy community 216 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: in terms of universities, departments, the National Science Foundation, you know, NASA, 217 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: how can what can we recommend to them to make 218 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: it better for people like me and for other people 219 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: at other other intersections. UM. And so that going to 220 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: that conference, that was the first time I had met 221 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: other Latina astronomers UM very first time, and I'm like, 222 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: you know, very far along in my graduate career, and 223 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: so that was a huge shock to me, and UM 224 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: it just made me realize, like, wow, I haven't had 225 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 1: this community this whole time. It has been very isolating, 226 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: and I need to be able to have that so 227 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: that I can UM succeed. And it seems like to 228 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: that point, in the context of being here at south By, 229 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: that social media and tech have facilitated some of that 230 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: community building as well. Yes, yes, because, um, so a 231 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: lot of these conversations you can't have in real life 232 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: because most of your colleagues are they don't get it 233 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: right if they're not experiencing those things. You know, a 234 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of guys have told me like, wow, 235 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,839 Speaker 1: I can't believe all the sexual harassment and astronomy is happening, 236 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: Like they just had no idea and it's happening right 237 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: under your nose, right, But it's because, um because when 238 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: you don't have to experience some identity, then you're completely 239 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: blind to it. Um. And So I have found online 240 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: several communities that I can connect with other like minded 241 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: people who are fighting for those same rights in astronomy 242 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: and science in general. Um and and those are the 243 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: people that I've really been able to connect with it 244 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: so that I don't feel so isolated and alone. Yeah. Yeah, Well, 245 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: and it seems too that speaking of astronomy, that's really 246 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: been the hot bed for a lot of this. There's 247 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: been so much activism specifically within astronomy and as a 248 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: lay person. Um, it surprised me. I mean, I had 249 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: no idea. But also that tells you a lot about 250 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: how much I know about the day to day workings 251 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: of astronomers, um, but curious to know why astronomy. So 252 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: I really think, So okay. What we have to realize, 253 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: and this is something that we're going to talk about 254 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: more tomorrow, is that science is not above culture, right A. 255 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: Science is actually deeply entrenched in the culture that we 256 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: all live in. And that means that there's gonna be 257 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: If there's gonna be sexism in society, there's gonna be 258 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: sexual harassment in society, it's going to happen in science 259 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: as well. The problem is that we associate science as 260 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: being this objective, noble field where nothing bad can happen 261 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: because scientists are, you know, so objective and so smart 262 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: and everything, and of course they're going to be above that. 263 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: But they're not. And also another problem is that, you know, um, 264 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 1: in academia in general, not just in science, but just 265 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: in academia, you have professors who are you know, they're 266 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: bringing in millions of dollars in grants and they have tenures, 267 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: so it's really hard to get them fired. And you're 268 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: they're more powerful, and you have these younger grad students 269 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: or undergrad students sometimes they have no power and they 270 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: are not as important to the universities UM as these 271 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: professors are. And so we have a community that's actually 272 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: willing to talk about these issues. So, starting I think 273 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: with that inclusive Astronomy conference and even much before, there 274 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: are members of the astronomy community who have been fighting 275 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: this all along. And when that story broke out, our 276 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: community rallied together on social media so that UM Jeff 277 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: Marcy would get fired because you know, in the midst 278 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: of all this, you know, it came out that the 279 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: Title nine investigation that he went through, UH, they found 280 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: him in violation. He had harassed several students, undergraduate students 281 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: UM and more than than we even know about. And 282 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: the University of California Berkeley said, well, the next time 283 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: you do something like this, you might get fired. And 284 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: our community was outraged. And so the people in this 285 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: community really fought through social media, a lot of the 286 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: younger people UM and and putting pressure on journalists and 287 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: putting pressure on UM, on departments and agencies, and and 288 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: that's why you're hearing about it. It's not that it's 289 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: not happening in other places. It's that we're speaking out, 290 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: and that's actually a good sign because it means that 291 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: we're having these open discussions. Um, and so hopefully other 292 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: fields will will also follow that example. Yeah, I wanted 293 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: to ask more about Jeff Marcy. So he was he's 294 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: what an exo planet researcher, okay, um, And when news 295 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: broke that he had been harassing women and this had 296 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: been going on for a decade, which he described as 297 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: just misunderstandings, you know, I just played and simple. Um. 298 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: It was really greeded as like an open secret, like 299 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: people had known about what was going on with Marcy 300 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: and the women that he was harassing for years. So 301 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: we were wondering, how is that kind of wilful blindness 302 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: even possible? Um, So it's possible because again because of 303 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: the culture we live in and the culture of silence 304 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: that surrounds these you know, survivors of sexual assault and 305 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: sexual harassment. So you have, first of all, there's a 306 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: power and balance. This thing is actually quite planned out. 307 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: There's something that um in the Women in Astronomy blog 308 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: was called um the Harasser's playbook. So I mean it's 309 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: kind of like grooming victims. And then it's always this power, 310 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: huge power and balance where the person who's doing the 311 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: harassing UM has a hold on your career somehow. And UM, 312 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: they are afraid to report because if they report, then 313 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: it gets dragged you know, through the media or you know, 314 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: in the community. Even in these small communities, you need 315 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: recommendation letters from your advisors. If this guy is your advisor, 316 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: you're not going to succeed in the field. And that's 317 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: why a lot of women end up leaving UM. And 318 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: so that culture of silence. You know, it's gonna affect 319 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: my career. Other people are not going to believe me. 320 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: It's all. It's a symptom of the larger cultural problem. 321 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: And UM astronomy is a huge field. There are lots 322 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: of different sub fields, but my particular subfield is Excel clanets. 323 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: And so I had been warned about this guy, you know, 324 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: years ago, and and someone told me through this underground information, UM, 325 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: you know, don't be alone with this guy at a 326 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 1: conference if you ever see him, like, you know, try 327 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: to stay away from him because he's dangerous. UM. And 328 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 1: so I had I never had to meet him. Fortunately, 329 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 1: I guess. Um, But but that was something that all 330 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: the women knew because they're handing out this information to 331 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: each other to protect each other. But the men, you know, 332 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,479 Speaker 1: by definition, never hear about it. So it's it's this 333 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: the whole system that allows these problems to happen, and then, um, 334 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: you know, we have to come up with ways to 335 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: protect each other. Um, but it's it's not effective, it's 336 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: it's not good enough. Right, So well, yeah, I mean 337 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: it gets I mean the whole thing is connected to 338 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: this could true of victim blaming and you needing to 339 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: protect yourself and keep yourself away from this guy who's 340 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: still in a position of power, which is so messed up. Yeah. 341 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 1: Well I also want I want to jump off of 342 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: that concept because we were talking in our uber here 343 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: or lift sorry this lift I lift here. Um about 344 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: I wonder if it's a generational thing because all you 345 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: you have the same sexism, in the same harassment, but 346 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you have all of these women 347 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 1: in the past. Ye're so really starting to speak out 348 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: and say, not only is this not okay, but we're 349 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: going to hold you accountable. Versus the advice columnist who 350 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: wrote for I Think it was science science magazines. Who guess, 351 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: And somebody wrote in and said, you know, I'm being harassed. 352 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: I'm you know, my boobs are getting stared at at 353 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: the office, like I'm experiencing all this stuff. What do 354 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: I do? And the advice columnists said, well, and this 355 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 1: was a woman writing, yes, it's not a dude, and 356 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 1: the lady person said, you know, just deal with it. 357 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: Just started to put up with it. It's part of 358 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: the job. It's part of the industry, you know, you 359 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: you should just put up a shut up And so like, 360 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: what's going on there? Is this a generational thing? Or 361 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: what do you feel like is behind part of the shift? 362 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: So I think that social media plays a hugely important 363 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: role because and Twitter, especially Twitter is actually the social 364 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: media platform that best represents the demographics of the U s. Right, 365 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: So other social media platforms like Reddit, um, you have 366 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of you know, men who are between the 367 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: ages of like, you know, sixteen and thirty vibe or whatever, 368 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: and white men, and they dominate the conversation, whereas on 369 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: Twitter you have uh, you know, more diversity, and so 370 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: you get more voices heard. So traditionally women did not 371 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: have a platform to speak. Minorities now have a platform 372 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: to speak, and now social media is providing that. So 373 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: it's not that these conversations weren't happening before, it's that 374 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: no one was listening, and social media provides a platform 375 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: for people to actually, you know, those voices get amplified. 376 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about some of those campaigns, 377 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: the ones that have stood out to you as extremely effective. Yes, 378 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: so absolutely this Jeff Marcy kase. I feel like most 379 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: people have heard about that, even people who were not 380 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: at all in touch with astronomy. So that was a 381 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: really big one. After that story broke, UM astro s 382 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: H was the hashtag that people used UM and it 383 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: was so it stands for sexual harassment, and people were 384 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: talking about it. People were coming out with their own stories, supporting, 385 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: you know, the victims and and trying to get this 386 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: guy fired. And our community puts so much pressure not 387 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: just on the University of California, Berkeley, but also on 388 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: the journalists who were writing headlines sympathizing with Jeff Marcy, 389 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,239 Speaker 1: who were writing content that you know, his They were 390 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: quoting his wife for some reason as like a legitimate 391 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: source of information. And that was in the new York Times. Yeah, 392 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,959 Speaker 1: and so our community did not stop. I mean, I'm 393 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: part of this spacebook group that's UM, it's for equity 394 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: and Inclusion in physics and astronomy, And all the people 395 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: in there were like, we're writing a letter, like who's 396 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: gonna sign it, who's gonna help us? Help us draft it, 397 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: you know, or we're over here on Twitter like talking 398 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: about this, like everybody like get on board. And so 399 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: we really organized UM and there were some key people 400 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: doing those that organization too, and so astrosh I mean, 401 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: it has had a huge reach, not just for that case, 402 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: but more recently, there was a case of a sexual 403 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: harassment Title nine investigation that happened UM about Tim Slater. Um. 404 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: This happened like ten years ago or something. But now 405 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: he's at a different university who's also found in violation. 406 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: Now he's at a different university, doing really well and 407 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: getting paid and everything, because UM, that information was either 408 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: not disclosed or dismissed. So he was found in violation. 409 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 1: Then his next employer either knew the information and didn't 410 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: do anything about it or just straight up didn't know. 411 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: So recently, Representative Jackie Spear, she's a representative from California. 412 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: She heard about this through this hashtag. I think it 413 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: was actually her staffers who informed her about it, and 414 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: she's now proposing legislation that's going to make these tied 415 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: all nine investigations at least in the state of California, transparent, 416 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: so that that information becomes public, right the the conclusions 417 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: of the investigations become public, and that you know, to 418 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: force universities to share that information with the future employer 419 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: of the perpetrators, and that that would be huge because 420 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: currently it's you know, you have a timeline investigation and 421 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: then nothing happens, I mean literally a slap on the wrist, 422 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: and sometimes not even that. I mean, that's incredible though. 423 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: I mean I feel like hashtag activism is dismissed a 424 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: lot of times. It's like, oh, that's so cute, you 425 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: all hashtag fun. But I mean these things are creating 426 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: actual political institutional changes. It's incredible. Yeah, I mean, I 427 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: think the people who complain about it are usually the 428 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: people who don't need it. So like, you know, if 429 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: if you're a white dude and you see yourself represented everywhere, 430 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: like of course you don't see the purpose of it. 431 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: But I actually for people who normally don't have a voice. 432 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: It's a huge deal. And I feel like that divide 433 00:22:58,080 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: is also I mean, speaking of the New York Times, 434 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: that's your liked it in our mainstream regular media that 435 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: you have. I mean, if you you need to look 436 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: at who's in your newsrooms and who is then covering 437 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: issues like sexism in science, and then that colors how 438 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: those stories come out. And then of course people who 439 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: aren't in science, they are reading these mainstream media outlets 440 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: and and that is informing their opinion of what's going 441 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: on exactly. You do whatever it takes to make sure 442 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: your business runs efficiently, but constant trips to the post 443 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: office can get in the way. With stamps dot Com, 444 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: you'll be able to spend less time at the post 445 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: office and more time growing your business. That's because stamps 446 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: dot com makes mailing and shipping easy. 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So don't wait. 456 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: Go to stamps dot com before you do anything else. 457 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage 458 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: and type in stuff that's stamps dot com. Enter stuff. 459 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: And now back to the show. Speaking of mainstream media, 460 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: So there was a a Wired article headlined was the 461 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: year we really started caring about sexism and science. And 462 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: there are a couple of parts that really jumped out 463 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: to me. Um, because this really is a new thing 464 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: that even science journalists are talking about. You know. That's 465 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: why we wanted to talk about science communication because we've 466 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: been hearing a lot of these issues within academia. But 467 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: it's also an issue in the information that we're hearing 468 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: about it and how it's being reported. And may I 469 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: quote from the Wired article, Um, Look, they're just okay. 470 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: So they interviewed Deborah Bloom, who is a science journalist 471 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: and also director of the Nights Science Journalism Program at 472 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: m I T. So this woman knows what she's talking about. 473 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 1: And she said, quote, I don't think we saw these 474 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: kinds of news stories and saw this kind of reaction 475 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: in the journalism community in earlier generations. We're all catching 476 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: up to this kind of cultural awareness. And then later 477 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: on the Wired writer had to say, yeah, I mean, 478 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: and also, if we look at Wired, this is what 479 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: I have to also own up to the fact that 480 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: we have only sporadically covered this issue as well. And 481 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: the writer said, we've been silent on many of these 482 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: stories because we've long hoped to cover the ways that 483 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: science can make the world better, not reflect to the 484 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,959 Speaker 1: world's problems. But that's wrong, of course, and ignoring social 485 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: inequality doesn't fix it. Yeah, well, I mean I also 486 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: think there I mean, I didn't read the article, but 487 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: there's also the issue of when you have science represented 488 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: by white men, right, then the other people who participate 489 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 1: in science are not as important because they're not as numerous. 490 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 1: And so why would you report on things that don't 491 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: affect your white male audiences or don't affect most scientists, right, 492 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: because they're mostly composed of white men. So I think 493 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: there's there's that branch of it too. I think that 494 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: affects it. Well, I'm going to something that you talked 495 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: about earlier in terms of people assuming, oh, well, science 496 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: is so objective, you know, they're so smart, like these 497 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: these kinds of issues are totally separate. And I think 498 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: it's that idea of almost like church and state of like, oh, 499 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 1: these like humany feelings, things like sexism are like over 500 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,959 Speaker 1: here and like separate from science because those are facts 501 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: and that's logic and they don't belong together. And that 502 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: sentiment is also i mean almost reflected in this Wired article. 503 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: Um So I'm kind of wondering what your responses when 504 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: people if when people say, like sex talking about sexism 505 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: has no place in science communication. We should be talking 506 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: about science, right. I love the story of how in 507 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 1: the US there was you know, federally funded They were 508 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: federally funded experiments and studies set out to prove that 509 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:37,719 Speaker 1: certain races were inferior to other races, namely the Caucasian race. Right, 510 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,719 Speaker 1: So there were scientists who were taking skulls of different 511 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: races of human beings, and they were filling the skulls 512 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: with beings or pas or something so that they could 513 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,239 Speaker 1: measure the volume and say, okay, see this one has 514 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: a bigger volume of the skull, so therefore their brain 515 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: is bigger so therefore they're smarter, therefore their better of 516 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: a race. Right. Um, what they didn't say is that 517 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: there and they literally believed that this was an objective 518 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: experience experiment. And then you realize, well, they used smaller 519 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: bodied skulls for the women and for the other races, 520 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: and they preferentially selected skulls from larger bodied people to 521 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: represent the Caucasian race. And then you want to tell 522 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: me that science is objective and you know scientists don't 523 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: bring their own biases into it. I mean, it's absolutely true, 524 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: and that's that wasn't that long ago. And this is 525 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: again federally funded experiments to do this, so it was 526 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: like legitimate science. And and I just I always point 527 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: that out, like you can't, you can't just use science 528 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: as you know, you're the arbiter of truth when it's 529 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: human beings who are conducting the science, human beings who 530 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: grow up with all these biases that wekend in societies. 531 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: It goes back to gatekeeping. Not only who are the 532 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: journalists covering the press releases and and the new discoveries, 533 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: but also who is doing the experiments. And so I 534 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: think it's easy for a lot of people white guys 535 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: and science. Uh to dismiss the white male scientists. But 536 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: it's easy for a lot of people to poo pooh 537 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: the idea that we need more women or people of 538 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: color or trans scientists. Um, because you know why, why, 539 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: it's just science. It's objective. But you know, what do 540 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: people approach you with these thoughts and ideas and what 541 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: do you tell them? How can diversity possibly make science 542 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: any better? Facts? Or that's a microscope? Right? So I 543 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: think an interesting idea is that diversity initiatives have been 544 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: around since like the seventies, right. I mean they looked 545 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: around and they're like, there are only white dudes in 546 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: science or and you know other areas as well. And 547 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: the fact is, you know, when you look at it today, 548 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: those um, those initiatives have largely benefited white women because 549 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: you know, you have a bunch of white dudes and 550 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: you tell them you have to diversify, and they're like, okay, 551 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: we'll take women, but that means just white women, right. Um. 552 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: So it's just sort of like we just have to 553 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: do the bare minimum here. We can't include women of color, 554 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: we can't include you know, trends people or gay people, 555 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: because it's just like, if we're gonna include anyone, let's 556 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: at least keep the raised homogeneous or whatever. So, UM, 557 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: I just think, you know, people who don't understand that, um, 558 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: it's it's really hard to get them to see otherwise. 559 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: But UM, I like to bring that example up, as 560 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, an example of it's it's just not that's 561 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: just not the way it works. Yeah, I mean there 562 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: was even uh I don't know when it was reported 563 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: but not long ago in New York Times on how 564 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: there is finally being attention paid to all of the 565 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: mice and lab rats, which are usually like the human analogs. 566 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: You know, so many studies are conducted on them, but 567 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: they're almost exclusively male rats because of the assumption but 568 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: females not all rats, not all rats or mice, you know, 569 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: under the assumption and that those female rats and their 570 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: own lady brains, this hysterical rat euter, yes, but legitimately 571 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: that their hormones would throw off studies. And we've seen 572 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: the same kind of thing in human studies, especially for 573 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: biomedical research. I would just like to insert that the 574 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,479 Speaker 1: female viagra you guys read about how it was tested 575 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: on men, I would like to just insert that as 576 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: an example, continue please, Now I'm just I'm off female, 577 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,959 Speaker 1: but wrat that's on viagra. Um. But there's only in 578 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: the past couple of years been attention to that. And 579 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: I mean things like oh pain medicine huh that impacts 580 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: female bodies different than male bodies. Maybe we need to 581 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: to work on that. And that's incredible. I mean we're 582 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,239 Speaker 1: talking about science, right, but we're still like catching up 583 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: in really really basic ways. But thanks to this kind 584 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: of activism. So who are some of the people that 585 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: we should be following on social media? Besides you? I 586 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: mean we already follow you. People we should be following 587 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: on social media, but also maybe some great hashtags that 588 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: are doing a really good job, particularly good job of 589 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: raising awareness, and maybe just people that we should be 590 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: aware of who are in this community having these conversations. 591 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: That's like a multi layer question, Starry, No, Well, I 592 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: I do want to talk about that because these are 593 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: people who have heavily influenced me and taught me just everything, 594 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: um in the last year. So um. So the first 595 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: person I want to mention is Dr Shonda Prescott Weinstein. 596 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: She's the sixty third black woman to have a PhD 597 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: in astrophysics in the history of the United States, okay, 598 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: and which is just mind blowing that that there's that 599 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: few black women being awarded PhDs um in astronomy. And 600 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: she is just amazing. I mean, she's she's an activist. 601 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: She talks about race and sexism in science. Um, she 602 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: talks about um, you know, hetero sexism, just all kinds 603 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: of things that she's amazing and I just I just 604 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: learned so much from her. And she has a blog actually, UM. 605 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: And one of the things that she was she was 606 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: one of the first people to say this when the 607 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: Jeff Marcity story broke out. She pointed out that maybe 608 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: the only reason that we care about these sexual harassment 609 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: cases is that they affect white women, you know. And 610 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: she talked about how we have a title nine office 611 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: on every university campus in this country. Where's my title 612 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: for office? You know, where um is the office that's 613 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: gonna handle racism on these campuses. And some people might 614 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: be like, well, you know, sexism leads to terrible things. 615 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: It might lead to rape or murder. Um. But actually 616 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: racism does as well, and we're not addressing those things, 617 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: and we're seeing all the violence that comes out of 618 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: racism now with a lot of social media and how 619 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: people have been reporting police brutality and all those things. 620 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: So I think it's just as important. And and she's 621 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: one of the people who's at the forefront of like, hey, 622 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: we need to make this issue intersectional. UM and so 623 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: she has a blog on medium and she talks about 624 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: just all these things that you're gonna learn so much. 625 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: She should definitely follow her UM. Also, Sarah Tuttle is 626 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: an astronomer here in Austin at ut UM and so 627 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: she she's she also talks about sexism from an intersectional 628 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 1: approach in science. Uh. Jesse Shanahan is a PhD. UH. 629 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: She's a grad student at Wesleyan and she talks about 630 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: all kinds of is ms in science. But she's also 631 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: a huge disability activist, So I learned a lot from 632 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: her UM. As an able bodied person, I feel like 633 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: we just don't see the world the same way and 634 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: we're blind to a lot of things, and that's something 635 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: that's super important. I also want to give a shout 636 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: out to Dr Jedidah Eisler. She's another black woman with 637 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: a PhD and astrophysics from Yale. First black woman from 638 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: Yale to graduate with a PhD in astrophysics, ever, which 639 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 1: is also an atrocity and an accomplishment at the same time. 640 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: And she has a a monthly vlog it's like a 641 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 1: Google hangout, and she brings in other women of color 642 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: from science, technology, engineering, mathematics, and she interviews them and 643 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: they talked about great things. So it's been a great 644 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: thing for me and for other women of color and science, 645 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: but I think also just for other people, UM, for visibility. 646 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: If you want to learn about other women who are 647 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: currently scientists and women of color, you should definitely watch 648 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 1: this Google hangout that she has. It's called banguards STEM 649 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: and she's also on Twitter as well. So you had 650 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, UM, when we were kind of talking about 651 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: the generational shift UM and the silencing effect and the 652 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: risk of kind of going forward with claims of sexual 653 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: harassment or gender discrimination, racism, etcetera. And now we are seeing, 654 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: you know, so much more conversation, especially through social media 655 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: and Twitter, about that, and I was wondering if there 656 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: is still that risk of backlash or if Twitter and 657 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: technology and kind of the visibility and community building that 658 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: they provide, if that's sort of provided an insulating effect 659 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: to that. So unfortunately, uh, this is a field that 660 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: is very slow to change. So I do think that, um, 661 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: that there is probably retaliation, like there's still fear of retaliation, 662 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: of course, But the more people who come out and 663 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: counter this culture of silence, the easier it is for 664 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: other women behind them and other other people behind them 665 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: who experience all of these isms, UM to come out 666 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: and have a voice for themselves. Um. Killer Miich was 667 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: talking about earlier how he wants to be a voice 668 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: for people who don't have a voice, and I feel 669 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: I feel the same way. I mean, the people, um, 670 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: the women who came out in the Jeff Marcy investigation 671 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: chose to have their names attached to that media piece. 672 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 1: They chose to have their names attached to that title 673 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: nine of investigation publicly, and they have gotten death threats, 674 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: rape threats, um, and all kinds of you know, horrible 675 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: nous but they've also had you know, a lot of 676 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: support from our community, and so um, you know, their 677 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: brave actions are what you know, empower other women to 678 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 1: do this, And I think really the only way is 679 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: to talk about it. But I don't fault women who 680 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: don't come board because you know your careers on the line. 681 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: It's easy for me to talk about this knowing that 682 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: I'm leaving research and I don't, you know, none of 683 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: these people have anything over me. And you know, I'm 684 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: gonna get my PhD and then I'm gonna go do 685 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: something else. But when you're staying in that community and 686 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 1: you need to do your research and you need to 687 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: get recommendation letters, and you need to have people supporting you, 688 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: I can completely understand why they wouldn't come forward with 689 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: those kinds of things. So hopefully this will I mean, 690 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: I know that we're progressing in the right direction. Um, 691 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,439 Speaker 1: hopefully you know, faster rather than slower. Yeah, I mean, 692 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: and oh the irony that science is so slow to change, 693 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: not kind of exactly, I mean, is there What do 694 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: you think it will take though? I mean, obviously it 695 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 1: will take more than hashtag activism and things like that, 696 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: But what do you think it will take to to 697 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: make it not such a hostile environment for not just women, 698 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 1: but people of color, disabled people, etcetera. So right now, 699 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: a lot of the young people are taking up these causes. 700 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: I mean, even being outspoken on social media is a 701 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: risky move if you're a young person. You know, if 702 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: you're a post doc or like a grad student and 703 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: people find out about it, you might not have a 704 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: good career. So I think, honestly, the onus is on 705 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,399 Speaker 1: the professors, people with power, people who have tenure UM 706 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: and and really I think the white men in this 707 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: profession if they want to see astronomy going forward UM 708 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: and being successful and having more discoveries and everything, than 709 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: really the onus is on them to start these changes 710 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: to you know, educate yourself about the issues and about 711 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: who's getting left behind, and you know, trying to make 712 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 1: a change. And I actually see that happening now because 713 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: more people are talking about and it's more visible. You know, 714 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: departments are coming under fire. University of California, Berkeley is 715 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: definitely under fire. UM. People are starting to pay attention 716 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: to save their own asses UM. And I think it's 717 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: it's really going to take those people in the higher 718 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: places because they're the ones with the power, right, and 719 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: the younger people are going to continue to change things 720 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: and and and and push through. But as long as 721 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: those people remain in power and want to do nothing 722 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: about it, then that's change is going to be so slow. 723 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: It'll happen still eventually, but it'll just be too slow. 724 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: So what can we non scientists do, you know, like, 725 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 1: because it affects us at some point, it trickles down 726 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 1: to all of us absolutely. I mean, you know, there's 727 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: this image that that society has about what a scientist 728 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: looks like, and that image gets passed around through media, um, 729 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: and it gets passed down to younger children who then 730 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: don't believe that they can be a scientist because they 731 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 1: don't they're not they don't play the part, right, UM. 732 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: So I think talking about it and like sharing this 733 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: information supporting the people who are on the bad side 734 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: of this, you know, the victims of the sexual harassment. UM. 735 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: If you talk about it on your own social media 736 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,839 Speaker 1: pages with these hashtags, it gets the information out there. 737 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: And know these scientists who are committing these crimes really 738 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 1: because if it's sexual assault, it's a crime. And there 739 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: you know, that's another story. But these people are paid 740 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: by your tax dollars. The money that comes at that 741 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 1: pays these professors comes largely from the big agencies like 742 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: the National Science Foundation NASA UM, the National Institution of 743 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: Health UM, the Department of Energy. This is all taxpayer 744 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 1: money and so we should all care about this and 745 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: try to spread this information so that future generations don't 746 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 1: have to live with this. Absolutely who is there? Is 747 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: there anything else that you want our audience to know 748 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: about you or your efforts and where we go ye 749 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 1: and also tell them me on how to find you. Okay? Well, um, 750 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: my Twitter handle is at jazz jazz toronomy so j 751 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: A z z t R O n O M y. 752 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: I can actually spell out this industry. UM, so you 753 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 1: can follow me and I post a lout on Twitter 754 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,359 Speaker 1: and everything. UM. But uh, I I try to do 755 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 1: as much as I can. So, I mean, I I'm 756 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: one person, but as much as I can, I I 757 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: like to try to support people like me because honestly, 758 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,959 Speaker 1: the motivation that I have is that I went through 759 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: this really hard thing that not a lot of people, 760 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: I mean ninety percent of people in this country will 761 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: never get a graduated you will never get a pH 762 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: and that was that was really hard for me. So 763 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: I knew what it was like and I didn't want 764 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: anybody else to go through that. So I turned around 765 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: and I started um a graduate mentoring program and my 766 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: just in my department UM where like older grad students 767 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,799 Speaker 1: will mentor younger grad or incoming grad students. And right 768 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: now we're seeing, ironically a lot of problems come up 769 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: right and um, you know people are going like where, 770 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: you know, why are we having all these problems now? 771 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,279 Speaker 1: And I'm going, you know, these problems existed before, but 772 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,839 Speaker 1: they flew under the radar, and you know, people were 773 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,839 Speaker 1: suffering silently. But now that we have something in this 774 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: department where students can act stually talk to someone who 775 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: will understand where they're coming from, that's why these problems 776 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,879 Speaker 1: are surfacing. And it's a good sign because it means 777 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: that people are talking about it and now we can 778 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: address those issues. So, UM, I don't know, I want 779 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: to take I want to take that message. I wanna UM. 780 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: I want to reach out to communities of color, people 781 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: who are not represented in science and encourage them to 782 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: go into stem um, which is a double edged sword 783 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: because I'm like funneling them into a system where they might, 784 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,839 Speaker 1: you know, encounter a hostile environment. But I think empowering 785 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: empowering these people too and letting them know like, hey, 786 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 1: science is just like the rest of the world. There's 787 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 1: gonna be sexism, there's gonna be racism, there's gonna be 788 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: able is um, you know, um, and letting them know like, 789 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: here's how you empower yourself, here's how you fight that. 790 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: Um you know, don't let anybody tell you that you 791 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,239 Speaker 1: can't do it, because you can. And and having like 792 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: for me getting a PhD, like being an immigrant and 793 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 1: a woman of color and and getting that far, I 794 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: can turn around and say, you know, I did it 795 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: and you can do it as well. And one last thing, 796 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: since this is stuff MOB never told you, even though 797 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: the name might suggest otherwise, would you like to give 798 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,919 Speaker 1: mom shout out? And one thing that you shouted out 799 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: and your ted talk was how your mom kind of 800 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: accidentally raised you as a scientist. I was just wondering 801 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,240 Speaker 1: if you could talk a little bit about that because 802 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: I love that story so much. Yes, oh my gosh. Okay, 803 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,359 Speaker 1: So a lot of you may not know this, but 804 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 1: like Latino culture is just the mother is basically she's 805 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: like the boss of the house. And um, Latin women 806 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 1: are just so empowered. Um. And my mom raised me 807 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 1: that way. She was, you know, really tough and everything, 808 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,319 Speaker 1: but she raised me to believe that I could really 809 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 1: do anything. And uh, and you know, when I guess 810 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 1: I tell I'll tell the story again. But when I 811 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 1: was young, I would, um, even really like three or 812 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 1: four years old, my mom would tell me like, go 813 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 1: clean your room or you know, go tidy this up 814 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 1: or something, and I wouldn't do literally anything until she 815 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 1: would sit down and explain to me why I had 816 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 1: to do it and um. And sometimes she would cry, 817 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 1: like she's told me, Like I would cry because as 818 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: I'm sitting here like for an hour, you know, arguing 819 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: with a three year old about why she should clean 820 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: her room. But the thing is, you know, she sat 821 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,399 Speaker 1: down and she did that. She knew that, like I mean, 822 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 1: she knew from experience that grounding me wasn't going to 823 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:14,799 Speaker 1: do anything. I was still not going to follow her 824 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,919 Speaker 1: orders or whatever. Um, So she did what she knew 825 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,759 Speaker 1: worked for me. A lot of parents wouldn't have done that, 826 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,320 Speaker 1: you know. I you know, I know a lot of 827 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:24,799 Speaker 1: people who would not have done that. And I just 828 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: think that her reinforcing that, like, my questions were important 829 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,479 Speaker 1: and they deserve to be validated. And you know, I 830 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: didn't have to take no for an answer. I didn't 831 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 1: have to just be satisfied with any answer that people 832 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: wanted to tell me, you know, that really that's what 833 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 1: science is. Science is, you know, having a question and 834 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,920 Speaker 1: just pursuing it and failing and trying again until you 835 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: get the right answer. And so I think that really 836 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: is one of the biggest reasons that I'm a scientist today. Yes, 837 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you and thanks Nicole's mom. Thanks mom. Well, Nicole, 838 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. We're really 839 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,760 Speaker 1: excited that you're doing what you're doing. We're so excited 840 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 1: to see what you do in the future, and we're 841 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,759 Speaker 1: really glad you're in Atlanta because we're gonna hang out. 842 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:23,319 Speaker 1: She's so funny. Let's give it up for Nicole. So 843 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,320 Speaker 1: there you have it, folks. Thanks so much to everyone 844 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,160 Speaker 1: who came to the show. Huge thanks to Nicole Cabrera, 845 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: who I am convinced is going to change the world. Yeah, 846 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,120 Speaker 1: Nicole is amazing, and we're as we said in the show, 847 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: we're super excited to see where she takes her science 848 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,160 Speaker 1: education career, and we're hoping that we'll be able to 849 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 1: take our live show to other places at some point. 850 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,320 Speaker 1: I know that we've talked about it and longingly posted 851 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: on social about where we should go if we were 852 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: to have a live show so it is top of 853 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,839 Speaker 1: mind for us, because again, we love meeting you all, 854 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,719 Speaker 1: whether it's for lady drinks like we've been doing in 855 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: some cities, or live show. So if you are a 856 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,839 Speaker 1: group and can bring us to your city, or if 857 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,880 Speaker 1: you run a venue and can bring us to your city, 858 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,840 Speaker 1: let us know, see and see you're down to travel, 859 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 1: So drop us a line of mom stuff at how 860 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,520 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. And of course we also want 861 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on everything we talked about in 862 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: that live show on sexism and science communications. So mom 863 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com again is our 864 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,439 Speaker 1: email address. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff 865 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,919 Speaker 1: podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple 866 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 1: of messages this year with you. Right now. Well, I 867 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Cecilia in response to our 868 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,279 Speaker 1: Adult Coloring Books episode, which we have received so many 869 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 1: emails about you guys really like your coloring, which I 870 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 1: kind of love. Um. Okay, so Cecilia says, as someone 871 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 1: who does not partake in a coloring now, I did 872 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,400 Speaker 1: not anticipate that I would relate so much to the episode, 873 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,320 Speaker 1: but I do. So here goes My mom began teaching 874 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: art in the early seventies and subsequently built her career 875 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: on researching and teaching about the history and practices of 876 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 1: art education. So, of course, my brother and I grew 877 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,440 Speaker 1: up on Susan Striker's anti coloring books. I remember feeling 878 00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 1: frustrated by the blank spaces, and I often simply colored 879 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,320 Speaker 1: in the illustrated vignettes and moved on to the next page. 880 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: I cherished the single normal coloring book. I owned a 881 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,919 Speaker 1: Barbie Fashion's book, but I spent a lot of time 882 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,719 Speaker 1: drawing my own fashion models as well, so I kind 883 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,920 Speaker 1: of loathed them. In retrospect, I think the anti coloring 884 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,040 Speaker 1: books were a positive influence on my creative development. I 885 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 1: believe that drawing versus coloring improves visual literacy and helps 886 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 1: kids build confidence. Through my own experience teaching art, I 887 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,439 Speaker 1: find that most kids show more joy and higher self 888 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,760 Speaker 1: esteem after creating self directed works of art as opposed 889 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,760 Speaker 1: to completing a predetermined project the traced hand turkey for example. 890 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,240 Speaker 1: Why have we got to hate on the traced hand turkey? 891 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,080 Speaker 1: I still draw those, She goes on to say, as 892 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,239 Speaker 1: for adults, I agree that coloring in between the lines 893 00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,360 Speaker 1: it is probably more of a sedative than a stimulant 894 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: in college, where I earned my b f A, my 895 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,959 Speaker 1: friends and I would destress at night by smoking weed 896 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 1: and coloring in our dorm. Well, I imagine that I 897 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,880 Speaker 1: would still enjoy this activity today. I feel obligated to 898 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,800 Speaker 1: put any free creative energy into making art, a practice 899 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 1: that always suffers because of my job and other responsibilities. 900 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,800 Speaker 1: Thanks again for the episode and for the welcome distraction 901 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: your show brings to my hours working as an art 902 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,040 Speaker 1: fram er. Well, thank you, Cecilia. Well, I've got a 903 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,279 Speaker 1: let her here from Maryland, who is all about some 904 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: adult coloring books, which Caroline whenever I hear the phrase 905 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 1: adult coloring books, that does sound like something naughty. Oh 906 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,240 Speaker 1: for sure, I without a doubt. Um, But Marylyn writes, 907 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 1: I just finished listening to your episode on adult coloring books, 908 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,319 Speaker 1: and I had to roll my eyes a little at 909 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 1: the fuss over coloring books stunting creativity by being a 910 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:59,800 Speaker 1: quote mindless activity. As someone who does have other creative 911 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,239 Speaker 1: hobbies like crochet and fiction writing, I can definitely say 912 00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,319 Speaker 1: that my coloring books, one of which I was working 913 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: on while listening to the episode, aren't making a creatively 914 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,759 Speaker 1: stagnated robot out of me. Coloring may not be as 915 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,640 Speaker 1: demanding as other pursuits, but I would argue that that's 916 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 1: what's so great about it. It allows people to exercise 917 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,560 Speaker 1: a simple, low stress creativity without the real or perceived 918 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,280 Speaker 1: pressure to make something perfect. Talking to people with creative 919 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,920 Speaker 1: pursuits like writing or art, one of the most common 920 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,840 Speaker 1: threads you'll find is the anxiety and dissatisfaction over imperfect 921 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,400 Speaker 1: finished products, not that I'm speaking from experience or anything. 922 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: With coloring, you get to exercise the same creative impulse, 923 00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,400 Speaker 1: but without fear of the world crashing down around you 924 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,920 Speaker 1: if you color outside the lines, or that shade of 925 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,879 Speaker 1: orange doesn't work as well as you thought it might. 926 00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,719 Speaker 1: Coloring is certainly more engaging than a lot of the 927 00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,000 Speaker 1: games I play on my tablet to kill time or procrastinate, 928 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,680 Speaker 1: and yet at the same time, it doesn't require me 929 00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,200 Speaker 1: to have my brain at one at all times, and 930 00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,960 Speaker 1: offers a RESTful and harmless activity to keep my hand 931 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 1: it's busy while I process the rest of my day. 932 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 1: As always, great podcasts and I look forward to future episodes, 933 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 1: some of which I will definitely listen to well. Coloring, 934 00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,920 Speaker 1: So thanks so much, Maryland, and thanks to everyone all 935 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,000 Speaker 1: of you who have written about coloring, especially so many 936 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:20,560 Speaker 1: coloring letters and photos. We love to see your coloring photos, 937 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,440 Speaker 1: um and for all of your other emails mom stuff 938 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address. 939 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,400 Speaker 1: And to keep up with all of our social media links, 940 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:35,759 Speaker 1: blog posts, videos and podcasts with our sources so you 941 00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,760 Speaker 1: can learn more about sexism and science communication, you should 942 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,120 Speaker 1: head on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot 943 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:49,280 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 944 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:58,560 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com