WEBVTT - George Santos Vows to Fight Federal Charges 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:02.840 I'm gonna fight my battle. I'm gonna deliver. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.560 I'm gonna fight the witch hud. I'm gonna take care 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:07.680 of Clary my name, and I look forward to doing that. 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:12.760 Republican Congressman George Santos came out swinging after pleading not 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:16.720 guilty to a thirteen count federal indictment for what the 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:21.280 US attorney described as an audacious scheme. Santos is accused 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:25.320 of defrauding his donors, using political contributions to line his 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:30.440 own pockets, claiming unemployment benefits unlawfully, and lying to Congress. 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:35.080 Many of the allegations have already been revealed as Santos's 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:39.000 fabricated life story came to light, in which he lied 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:43.320 about nearly everything from his family background to his education 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.360 and work experience. Yet Santos seemed to be surprised at 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:51.800 the indictment. It's a witch hut because it makes no 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:56.480 sense that in four months, four months, five months, I'm indicted. 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:00.160 My guest is former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz, Apart and 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:04.480 McCarter and English, just how serious are these charges against Santos? 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:10.200 Federal prosecutors unsealed an indictment charging representative George Santos of 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.560 New York with thirteen counts, including counts of money laundering, 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:18.039 stealing public money, wire fraud, and making false statements to Congress. 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.000 These are very serious charges that carry with them long 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:26.000 jail sentences, and when you take together all the allegations 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:29.240 that are in this twenty page indictment, they paint a 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:33.720 pretty damning portrait of someone who utilized various deceptions and 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:36.400 schemes to help them get elected to Congress and to 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:37.560 line his own pockets. 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:42.000 The indictment comes less than five months after the Eastern 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:46.120 District of New York began their investigation, and Santo said, 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.240 it's a witch hunt because it makes no sense that 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:53.080 in four months, four months, five months, I'm indicted. How 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:53.920 fast is that? 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:56.960 Well, that actually is pretty fast for prosecutors to put 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.280 a case like this together. Often these cases can take 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.280 more than a year as they go through complicated financial 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.680 records to put this type of financial fraud or political 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.880 corruption case together. But here they did it in five months, 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:13.560 which suggests to me that the evidence was fairly clear 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.200 that prosecutors were able to put together a case that 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.040 they believed was going to get them a conviction in 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:23.040 a relatively short time, primarily going through bank records and 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:27.160 financial statements, although it's also clear, based upon the allegations 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:31.120 in the indictment that they also interviewed several victims of 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:34.480 this scheme and they have some inside information not only 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.440 based upon the bank records, but also upon testimony of 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.000 witnesses who we can expect to be central to the 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:41.320 government's case at trial. 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.600 So let's go through the indictment tell us about the 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:49.320 first alleged scheme and allegations of wire fraud and money laundering. 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.280 This indictment is very detailed and include seven counts of 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:56.840 wire fraud, three counts of money laundering, two counts of 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:59.639 making false statements to the House of Representative, and one 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:02.760 count of best to public funds. The wirefraud of the 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.320 money laundering actually overlapped the various schemes that are charged 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.680 in the indictment, and basically this indictment comes down to 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:14.480 three schemes alleged by prosecutors. The first scheme alleges that 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:20.000 mister Santos was involved in a fraudulent political contribution scheme. 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:24.080 Prosecutors said mister Santos and an unnamed Queen's based political 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.960 consultant induced donors to give money to a limited liability 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.160 company he controlled. According to the indictment, he then used 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.480 the money for personal expenses, such as buying designer goods 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.480 and to payoff personal debts. The allegations in the complaint 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:41.600 don't identify by name the companies, the people, the investment firm, 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:46.400 or the contributors involved. Prosecutors never named victims or companies 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:48.760 that are alleged to be victims by name in indictments, 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.880 so they referred to as company number one, person number one, 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.680 contributor number one, et cetera. But as this case continues, 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.560 prosecutors will reveal who these individuals are, who these companies 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:01.840 are that will come out in discovery, and some in 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.560 the media have already figured out who these are based 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:08.160 upon the generalized descriptions in the indictment. So it's clear 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:10.120 that there is a lot going on here in this 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.320 first scheme, and prosecutors seem to have a lot of 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:16.280 evidence based on the allegations outlined in the indictment. 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:21.360 The unemployment fraud claim is new and surprising. He applied 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.239 for unemployment insurance even though he was making one hundred 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:26.680 and twenty thousand dollars in annual salary. 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.360 Yeah, this is a new allegation that had not yet 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:32.160 come to light, despite a lot of media reports on 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:36.360 many statements that, according to reporters, were faults that were 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:40.120 made during the election and prior to the election. This 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:42.719 is a new scheme where in the indictment he's charged 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.960 with unemployment insurance fraud. Federal prosecutors say that in June 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.600 of twenty twenty, in the early months of the COVID 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.800 nineteen pandemic, mister Santos applied for government assistance in New 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:56.360 York even though at the time he was employed by 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.279 a Florida based investment firm, which appears to be a 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.279 company called Arbor City Capital, and he drew an annual 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.719 salary of one hundred and twenty thousand dollars. This is 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:07.880 one of those allegations that seem to be pretty clear cut. 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:12.960 It's something that prosecutors can fairly easily document because presumably 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.800 they have records of mister Santos making this application for 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:20.039 unemployment benefits. At the same time, they will have to 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.960 prove that he was employed by Harbor City Capital and 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.320 drawing the annual salary. That's the case. That's largely built 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.200 on records, and we can presume that prosecutors have gone 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.880 through those records and believe that this is a clear 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:34.920 cut case that they won't have much difficulty proving a trial. 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:38.440 And yet Santos told a reporter outside the courthouse that 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.279 this was inaccurate information, and I don't understand where the 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:45.680 government is getting their information from. Well, the government is 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.080 getting their information from documents, right. 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:50.240 Well, that does seem to be what this is based on, 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.360 and it does answer the question why this indictment came 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.680 about in only five months. It is largely based on 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:00.000 financial records. It seems that prosecutors have gone through these bankqwreeks, 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:04.479 have gone through these applications that were made to government agencies, 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.440 and they put this together in a fairly solid way 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.640 so that they could bring this case quickly. Whenever prosecutors 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:15.760 bring any case, particularly cases involving political corruption, they always 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.320 want to proceed cautiously. They never want to pull the 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.360 trigger too early because they know that these cases are 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:23.719 going to get a lot of publicity. They know these 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.760 cases are going to be vigorously defended, and so they 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.159 don't want to move ahead until they believe they have 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.480 all the evidence necessary in order to bring these charges. 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:36.720 The fact that prosecutors moved so quickly here suggests that 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:41.120 they believe they have significant financial and documentary evidence that 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:43.119 they will be able to use to prove their case, 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.160 and that the defense will not be able to attack 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:48.760 because the records are what they are, and to the 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.960 extent the records conflict with one another, is going to 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.039 be very typical for the defense to attack them. 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:57.839 And Santos is one of nearly three dozen Republicans sponsoring 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:02.359 legislation clamping down on the abuse of unemployment insurance, the 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:05.719 same type of fraud that Santos himself is now alleged 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.840 to have committed. So that's a bit of irony. Now, 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:12.320 the third scheme that Santos is accused of committing, lying 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:17.160 on congressional financial disclosure forms, will also be based on records. 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.680 Yeah. The third scheme that's outlined in the indictment said 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.080 that mister Santos misled the House of Representatives about his 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:29.880 financial circumstances on disclosure statements required for federal candidates. Prosecutors 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:34.120 essentially accused him of overstating during his unsuccessful twenty twenty 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.480 campaign one source of income while failing to disclose the 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.200 salary from an investment firm that he worked at at 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.960 the same time. So he's basically accused of falsely reporting 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.640 his income in one case and overstating it in another. Again, 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.320 that is a case where prosecutors should be able to 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.640 show financial records in order to prove their case, and 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:56.320 you would think that this would be a fairly straightforward 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:57.560 case for prosecutors. 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:01.200 The congressman's lawyer, Joe Murray, told reporters that he wants 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:04.800 to meet with prosecutors and quote, share what we've learned 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.400 and what we have. We have information that I think 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.720 they would be interested to see. Is that a likely scenario? 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.560 Well, I thought it was interesting that mister Santos in 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.600 court was very deferential, very soft spoken, but when he 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:20.120 left the court room, he stood out on the courthouse steps. 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.120 I was really rather defiant. He said that he would 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.880 use this as an opportunity to prove his innocence. He 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.200 called the investigation a witch hunt. He said, I'm going 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.920 to fight this battle, I'm going to deliver, And basically 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.400 he pitched this as an opportunity that he'd been waiting 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.240 for to clear his name so he could move forward. 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.240 Because remember, not only is he refusing to resign from 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:44.599 a seat in Congress, but he's actively running for re 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:47.400 election at this point, So he is pitching this as 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.640 an opportunity to clear his name and trying to suggest 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.520 that prosecutors are falsely going after him on some kind 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:56.000 of witch hunt, although he's given no indication as to 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:59.680 why he would be singled out for this unfair treatment. Interestingly, 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:03.320 his lawyer was much more circumspect in terms of where 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:05.920 the case stands right now, and as you mentioned, he 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.320 talked about meeting with prosecutors sharing information with them. That's 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.319 kind of the standard playbook of the defense lawyer in 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:15.240 a circumstance like this, to meet with prosecutors to try 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.640 to flesh out the government's case a little more to 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:21.120 the extend, prosecutors will share that information. At this point, 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.600 they do have to provide discovery, so they do have 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:26.560 to really give the defense here an opportunity to see 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.240 not only what the charges are, but how the government's 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.000 going to prove those charges. They've got to provide the documents, 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:35.520 the bank records, statements by witnesses. But at the same time, 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:38.760 the defense has an opportunity to share with prosecutors what 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.800 it believes are some of the weaknesses in the government's case. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.400 Usually this kind of back and forth goes on before 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:48.920 an indictment. Once it gets to this stage, prosecutors are 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.719 going to move forward with this case. It's exceedingly rare 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:53.560 that a defense lerner can ever go in there and 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.600 convince prosecutors to drop a case, and particularly a case 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:59.440 like this where there appears to be so much evidence 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.480 in prosecutes. I have put together three separate schemes, all 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:07.080 of which are standalone cases that they could bring really 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.760 without bringing the other cases. But here when they put 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.600 them all together, it does pain the picture of a 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:18.160 defendant who, according to prosecutors, would lie, would deceive, and 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.480 did all of this in order to win a seat 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:24.120 in Congress and also make money for himself at the 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:25.400 expense of taxpayers. 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.880 It's always possible, But does it seem like a case 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:30.960 where a plea deal could be reached. 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.880 Well, a plea is always possible, particularly if the defendant 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:39.200 ultimately realizes that a conviction a trial is highly likely. 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:43.560 Prosecutors always give defendants an opportunity to plead to something 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.720 that is going to be more favorable than the outcome 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:48.920 if they had gone to trial and get convicted of 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:50.760 all counts. Now, at the end of the day, it's 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.080 always up to the judge as to what the sentence 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.480 will be, so prosecutors can never promise a particular sentence. 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.720 But generally speaking, if a defendant pleads guilty, they're going 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.040 to get a slightly better deal than if they go 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.480 to trial. Here, the charges are so serious that I 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.280 would never expect prosecutors to put anything on the table 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.400 that is not going to involve some significant jail time 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.760 that leaves the defendant in a difficult situation. Do they 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.360 roll the dice, Do they try to win a trial 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:19.679 and walk away with no jail time at all, or 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:22.080 do they risk a trial where they would face even 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.160 more jail time than if they take a plea deal. 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:28.319 Bob, what could his defense be? Does anything come to mind? 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:30.400 I didn't know. I didn't understand. 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:32.640 There's a couple things that defense lawyer will deal and 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.360 look into this case. First of all, he will review 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.000 the evidence, so look at the documents and see whether 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.760 they are as clear cut as prosecutors claim, to see 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.200 whether there's language in there that he may be able 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:47.359 to exploit to suggest that this wrongdoing was not wilful. 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.520 There may have been mistakes made, but the mistakes were 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.800 not intentional, because prosecutors have to prove that all of 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:56.840 these crimes were done knowingly and wilfully. So that's one 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.320 strategy defense lawyers will use. Another is whether or not 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:04.080 somebody else may have been involved in submitting these falsified records. 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:06.480 There have been talk of a treasurer who was involved 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.719 in the Santos campaign. It's possible that the defense will 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.000 try to shift some of the blame onto others who 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:14.720 were not charged in this case and suggest that while 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.199 false documents were submitted to banks or possibly to the 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.679 House of Representatives, that it was done without mister Santos's 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.520 knowledge or complicity. So that's another area that a defense 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:27.719 lawyer will take a look at and try to use 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:31.160 as a possible defense here. Remember, the burden is always 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.040 on the prosecution to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.560 The defense doesn't have to put on any case at all. 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.880 It bears no burden to prove its innocence, but they 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.520 can try to poke holes in the government's case to 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.120 at least raise a reasonable doubt in the mind of 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:47.839 some jurors as to whether or not the government has 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.400 met its burdens. So that also could be a strategy 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.520 we could see employed if this case ever gets to trial. 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.840 If it goes to trial, could he defend himself without 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.280 taking the stand or is this the kind of case 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:03.400 where he really have to take the stand to establish 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:07.320 his defense, even though of course a defendant always has 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:09.120 the legal right not to testify. 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.080 Often the strategy is to try to convince durers that 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:16.360 prosecutors have not met their burden of proof, to show 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.560 that the evidence that the government has produced does not 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:24.600 conclusively show that the defendant willfully and knowingly violated the law. 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:29.120 The difficulty here is that there's three separate schemes, and 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:33.559 so they have to convince jurors that, in three different occasions, 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:38.320 in three different schemes involving three different crimes, that all 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:40.840 of them were cases where the government has failed to 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:43.920 prove their case. That's going to be exceedingly difficult to 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:47.840 do unless mister Santos takes the stand in his own defense. 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.240 But that comes with its own list of perils, because 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:54.720 prosecutors have the opportunity to cross examine him and to 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.600 ask him lots of difficult questions that he will have 0:13:57.679 --> 0:13:59.640 to try to look jurors in the eye and convince 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:00.920 them that he's telling the truth. 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.200 I'll bet prosecutors would consider it a gift if they 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.800 could cross examine Santos. Oh, we'll have to see what happens. 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.280 How long before the case might go to trial. 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.240 Well, defense is entitled under federal law to a speedy trial. 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.280 That means is the defense wants this trial to go 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.880 within seventy days, they can force the government to try 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:25.080 the case that quickly. Usually the defense wants more time 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.040 to prepare their case, and judges will always give the 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.560 defendants more time because they don't want to have a 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.320 trial go forward and then have a court of appeals 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.400 find that the defense was not given adequate time to prepare. So, 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.000 depending upon the volume of these financial records, what the 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:43.600 evidence looks like, how much the defense has to go 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.200 through in order to prepare for trial, I think we 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:48.680 would not expect to see this case go to trial 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:51.120 before a year and perhaps longer. 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:55.160 Prosecutors said that Santo's face is as many as twenty 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.400 years in prison if convicted of the most serious charges, 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.600 but his likely sentence if he's convicted would be much 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:02.800 shorter than that, wouldn't it. 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:05.960 Yeah, So the way it works is that each of 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.520 these separate charges have a statutory maximum. So, for example, 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:13.360 wire fraud carries a maximum of twenty years in prison 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:18.080 unlawful monetary transactions. The money laundering carries a range of 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.520 a few years to decades in prison. Effect of public 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:23.600 money is a maximum sense of one year in prison. 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:27.040 But the practical reality is that if a defendant pleads guilty, 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:29.800 or of a defendant is convicted a trial, all of these 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.960 charges merge together, and then the federal sentencing guidelines really 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.920 control here, and that will wind up with a sentence 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.080 that is much less than these statutory maximums. So we're 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.480 not going to see a prison sentence of forty or 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.760 fifty years. Even if mister Santos is convicted a trial, 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.240 it would likely be something much lower than that, maybe 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:51.480 in the eight to ten year range if he goes 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:54.680 to trial and loses, and something slightly less than that 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:56.840 if he decides to take a plea deal. That's just 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.920 an estimate because it really depends on lots of factors, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.240 how much money is involved, other aggravating factors that can 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.680 push up the sentencing guidelines more. But typically these are 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.800 cases that are not ten twenty years. It's something between 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:13.040 five and ten years in most of these political corruption cases. 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:15.960 So Santos, as you mentioned, said he doesn't plan to 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:18.800 resign from Congress and that he is going to run 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.520 for reelection next year. I know it's rare for someone 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:24.800 to be kicked out of Congress, and it certainly won't 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.800 happen before a verdict in the case. But if there's 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.360 a guilty verdict, will he be kicked out of Congress? 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.240 Well, it's interesting that no law prevents mister Santos from 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:38.360 continuing to serve in Congress even after this bombshell indictment. 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:41.600 That is something that is ultimately up to the House 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.360 of Representatives as to whether or not they want to 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:48.320 expel a member of the House. The history here is 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.360 that only twenty members since the beginning of the country 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.760 have actually been expelled from Congress. Five of those were 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.560 House members, and a number of those were done during 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.760 the Confederacy as a result of law or siding with 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:04.440 the Confederacy during the Civil War. Article one, section five 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:08.320 of the Constitution requires a two thirds vote to expel 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.840 a member, So it's going to take more than just 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.800 Republicans or more than just Democrats to remove them. It's 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:19.360 going to take a bipartisan vote to remove them from Congress. Historically, 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:23.920 what's happened is that a member is removed from any 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.679 committees they may be on once they're indicted. Now, in 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.280 this case, mister Sanchez has already been removed from committees 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.280 due to the false statements and the exaggerations that he 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.560 made during his campaign, so they can't remove them from that. 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.880 Usually what happens is once they're convicted, they either resign 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:44.359 or the House of Representatives will move to expel them. 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.520 Usually they resign, but there have been many members of 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:51.000 Congress who have been indicted who have continued to remain 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.800 in Congress while they fight those charges, and I think 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:55.280 that's what we're going to expect to see here. 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:58.040 It will be interesting to see how the case develops 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:02.639 considering all the evidence that prosecutors have outlined in the indictment. 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.480 Santos will be back at the courthouse on June thirtieth 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.600 for another hearing and perhaps we'll learn more then. Thanks 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.280 so much for your insights, Bob. That's Robert Mints of 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:17.399 maccarter and English Goldman Sachs is shelling out two hundred 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:19.960 and fifteen million dollars to put an end to one 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:24.399 of Wall Street's biggest gender discrimination cases, a class action 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.399 where about twenty eight hundred female associates and vice presidents 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:33.560 accused the finance giant of systematically underpaying and under promoting women. 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.439 The settlement came just a few weeks ahead of a 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:39.160 trial that would have provided a window into the fabric 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:43.280 of Goldman's workplace and a rare public forum for testimony 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:47.520 about inequity inside the financial industry, where all but one 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:51.040 of the six biggest US banks have only ever been 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:53.800 run by men. It's been more than a decade of 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.280 litigation in one of the highest profile lawsuits over paid 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.919 disparity on Wall Street, where women have long complain that 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:05.960 unfair treatment can derail careers. Goldman denied wrongdoing and agreeing 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.840 to settle, it did agree to engage an independent expert 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:14.280 to conduct additional analysis on how it evaluates performance and 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:18.639 its process for promotion. Joining me is Dominique Camacho Moran, 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:22.240 head of the labor and employment practice at Faroh Fritz. 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.160 So tell us about this class action lawsuit that's been 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:28.200 going on since twenty ten. 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.879 So interestingly, in twenty ten the lawsuit was filed, but 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.480 the action actually commenced before that when there was a 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.639 charge filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. So this 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:43.360 case has been around for a very long time. The 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:47.360 initial litigation began with a complaint. When it was filed 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:50.520 in twenty ten, it was filed as a class action, 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.440 and so as a result, there was an initial phase 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:59.080 of discovery and court decisions regarding whether the complaint should 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.360 proceed on on behalf of the one plaintiff who filed 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:06.600 the litigation or on behalf of all female employees who 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.160 were similarly situated. So as a result, it took longer 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:14.199 in that initial stage. Combine that with the pandemic and 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.439 cases that were not going to trial were looking at 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:21.440 a very lengthy window of discovery and preparation for. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:26.480 A trial date and explain what the allegations are in 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:27.200 the lawsuit. 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:33.080 So there were essentially three different kinds of allegations that 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.600 women were not evaluated on their performance fairly, that they 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:40.639 were not paid fairly, and that they were not promoted 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:44.640 in a fair way. And so all three issues are 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.679 similar but a little bit different. Women were paid less 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:53.480 allegedly than their male counterparts. Women were evaluated more harshly 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:57.760 allegedly than their male counterparts, and they were not promoted 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.520 for the same reasons as their male caait parts. 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:03.879 The trial was scheduled for next month in New York, 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:08.240 so it would have been a public forum for testimony 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:13.320 about any quality inside the financial industry. The two sides 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.400 were racing to settle before trial. I can see why 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:18.959 the banks would want to settle before trial, but why 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:21.080 did the plaintiffs want to settle before trial? 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:25.040 The plaintiff claim was not easy. When you look at 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:29.760 a claim of pay disparity or some sort of promotion discrimination, 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.120 the plaintiff has to establish that the reason why they 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.720 were paid less, the reason why they were not promoted 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:41.000 was because of their gender. That typically is not an 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:45.879 easy thing to establish because there are often many reasons, 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:49.960 and it's hard to establish that two employees are identical. 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:53.600 So not easy for the plaintiffs to go forward. It's 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:56.520 hard to make the claim that there's a pattern or 0:21:56.600 --> 0:22:02.760 practice that Goldman intentionally was described dominating and intentionally paying 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.760 women less. The other thing is in a big organization, 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:11.080 the decision makers are likely numerous, and so the plaintiff 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:14.360 also has to establish that all of those decision makers 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:19.040 were engaged in some sort of systematic discrimination. That's a 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.840 hard thing for the plaintiffs to prove, and so to 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:26.040