1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace a bombshell claim. Is Brian 2 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: Coburger's own mother secretly torpedoing his defense? I'm Nancy Grace, 3 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. 4 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 2: Location of emergency of. 5 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 3: One one who. 6 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: Joining us an all star panel, but straight out to 7 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: the author who has written that definitive book on the 8 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: Coburger trial, Howard Bloom joining us. Howard question, what is 9 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: the report all about that Coburger's own mother is sabotaging 10 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: his defense? 11 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 4: Brian Coberger's mother does not want to admit that her 12 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 4: son is guilty. She is telling him and everyone involved 13 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 4: in the defense team she has no intention of settling 14 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 4: this case. 15 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 5: She wants it. 16 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 4: All to go to trial, even though two things are 17 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 4: looming over the case. 18 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: A very curious Howard Bloom why the mother would gamble 19 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: with her son's life since he is facing the firing squad. 20 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 4: First, this is the death penalty which is now going 21 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 4: to end in a firing squad. Idaho has passed a 22 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 4: law requiring that the death penalty be serviced by a 23 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 4: firing squad. The second thing is that the evidence against 24 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 4: Brian Coburger is pretty convincing. You just have to go 25 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 4: to this one salient fact. They have DNA from the 26 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 4: knife sheath that matches DNA taken. 27 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 5: From a cheek squab after his arrest. 28 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 4: So the defense is doing everything they can to save Coburger, 29 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 4: not just from a a guilty verdict, but from the 30 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 4: death penalty and hovering over all this is Colburger's mother 31 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 4: trying to say putting down her foot and say no, 32 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 4: she does not want to cross that rubercon where her 33 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 4: son might be a mass murderer. 34 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to get to the rest of the family. 35 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: Where does the dad stand on this? Where does the 36 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: sisters stand on this? Remember they the sisters are the 37 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: ones that suspected Coburger their own brother at the get 38 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: go and voiced those concerns, and the parents beating them down. 39 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: According to reports straight out to the panel, Josh. 40 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: Ritter joining me, high profile criminal defense attorney joining us 41 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: out of la host of courtroom confidential. 42 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: Josh, thank you for being with us. 43 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: This is greatly hampering the defense ability to maneuver because 44 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: if the mother is behind the scenes going HLN, there 45 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: will not be a guilty plea. She's setting her son, 46 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: her own son, up for the firing squad. So when 47 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: you've got it reminds me of a case that I 48 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: consulted on in Fulton County. It wasn't my case, but 49 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: I was watching it. 50 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: A young man murdered his mother, who happened to be 51 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: a sitting judge. 52 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: Judge Josephine Holmes Cook all right, been a defense attorney 53 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: for years, got on the bench. The family kept saying, 54 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: don't plead, don't plead to the sun. 55 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: They offered him a really light sentence, which I disagree with. 56 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: But that said, he listened to the family, he got convicted, 57 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: he got life behind bars. 58 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: That's what I'm talking about. What about it, Josh, Well. 59 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 6: It's about his high stakes the game, as you could 60 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 6: possibly be claim, because we are talking about the death 61 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 6: pedal to hear, this isn't a matter of you know what, 62 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 6: let me take my chances, let me see what the 63 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 6: evidence actually is and this and we heard from the 64 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 6: author just there. And one thing I'll take issue with 65 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 6: is he talked about the evidence against him. I haven't 66 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 6: seen any evidence so so far. What we're talking about 67 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 6: is alleged at Place. 68 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: Actually has a straight face when he's saying that, Well, 69 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: I want to watch you. 70 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: I want to say your demeanor. Okay, yeah, what did 71 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: you just say that? 72 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: You actually say you say you haven't seen any evidence 73 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: indicating guilt. 74 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 6: I haven't seen an exhibit marked in court. I haven't 75 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 6: seen a witness taken taken the stand under oath, so 76 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 6: so far. I mean, we live in America where they're 77 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 6: presumed innocent right now there is no evidence. But in 78 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 6: this game that is being played, this game of chicken, 79 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 6: we're not just talking about somebody going to prison for 80 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 6: the rest of their life. We're talking about somebody who 81 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 6: might possibly be facing the firing squad. So I absolutely 82 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 6: do understand why the family pressures are going to be 83 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 6: something that's very difficult for his defense team to be handling. 84 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 6: If they're trying to negotiate some sort of a flea 85 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 6: that avoids him receiving the capital punishment, the greatest punishment 86 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 6: we have in this country. That is, I think their 87 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 6: first and foremost goal in this whole thing is just 88 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 6: to try to save their client's life, you know, to. 89 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: Dodor Bethany Marshall joining us guys for the as you 90 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: just joining us. Apparently Mommy Coburger is to torpedoing her 91 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: son's defense case. Demanding that they go to trial to 92 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: prove his innocence. Okay, you know what can love be that? 93 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 2: Blind? 94 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany with me, Doctor Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst out 95 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: of the California jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. You can 96 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: see her now on Peacock and find her at doctor 97 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall dot com. Question love that blind that she 98 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: can't see the evidence and all that that Josh Ritter 99 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 1: just said. 100 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: It's blah blah blah blah. 101 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: Of course he's presumed innocent. He's just throwing that out 102 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: there as a fallback. Yes, he's presumed innocence. But the 103 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: rest of that phrase is unless and until the state 104 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: pierces the presumption of innocence with evidence. Okay, they always 105 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: leave that part out, But unless he wants to argue 106 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: DNA isn't real, Josh Ritter has a problem. 107 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: Blind love, Bethany, blind love. 108 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 7: Not only does this mother have blinders on Nancy, but 109 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 7: I would imagine that this family has a long and 110 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 7: storied history of those two sisters being concerned about their brother, 111 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 7: pointing out his symptoms, trying to get some kind of 112 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 7: psychological help for him, and the mother shooting them down, 113 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 7: not believing them. You know, I find that in families 114 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 7: sometimes the parents idealize the most disturbed child. So you'll 115 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 7: have two kids who are really functioning highly in society, 116 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 7: are bright. You'll have one child who's maybe personality disordered, 117 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 7: maybe associopath, and the parent chooses to put that child 118 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 7: on a pedestal. It's as if the idea that that 119 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 7: child needs help is just unfathomable for them. So I 120 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 7: think this mother, unfortunately, is not in reality, and as 121 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 7: you pointed out earlier, she's going to hurt her son 122 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 7: in some way through this pushing the defense attorneys. 123 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: And let me point out one more thing, doctor Bethany, 124 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: He's the baby. 125 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: He's the baby. 126 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: Of the family, the golden boy, the only boy. Okay, 127 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: So I don't know how that works in the mother 128 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: son dynamic. 129 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 2: I don't know that, but it means something. 130 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: I'm just a trial lawyer, but I know enough to 131 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: know that the baby is coddle. The only boy is 132 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: very often elevated, like you're saying. 133 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: But you know, Chris McDonough, let me go to you. 134 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: Unlike doctor Bethany, who comes at it from a psychological angle, 135 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: you and I've seen so many murder case I can't 136 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: even count the number of cases I investigated, tried, or covered. 137 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: Same with you. 138 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: McDonough, Director Cold Case's Foundation, former homicide detective, having worked 139 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: over three hundred homicides during his career, also star of 140 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: The Interview Room, Chris, let's just break down all that 141 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: that Bethany just said. I've seen so many mothers will 142 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: probably every mother of a defendant. They tried to fight me, 143 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,679 Speaker 1: physically fight me in the courtroom to defend their son. 144 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: They don't believe their baby could do it. 145 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: The looks I've gotten, if looks could kill, I mean, 146 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: the jury has to see everything going on in the courtroom, 147 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: and the mom is. 148 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: Always front seat, right behind the. 149 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: Sun, charged with murder, crying and carrying on, acting like 150 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: they're going to pass out. Are you surprised the mother 151 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: is saying, no, you're not pleading because you didn't do it. 152 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 2: Forget the DNA. It happens all the time, Chris. 153 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 8: Absolutely, Nancy, And isn't it interesting that that type of 154 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 8: unconditional love is that blind. I mean, remember, let's go 155 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 8: back to the point that she wrote an op ed 156 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 8: defending the death penalty against Ted Bundy of all people. 157 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 8: So you know, we have to think through that and say, okay, well, 158 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 8: what was the trigger between the mother and the son 159 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 8: that has caused her, you know, to defend him in 160 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 8: such a fashion, No, grante, that's her son. We get 161 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 8: that piece of the puzzle. But I think the evidence 162 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 8: is going to be damning for the family. 163 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: I think he meant she attacked the death penalty in 164 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: an op ed, even though the death penalty was for 165 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. You know, I interviewed some of his survivors 166 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: changed their lives forever, not in a good way. 167 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 9: Scot. 168 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to get right to you, but I want 169 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: to find. 170 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: Out from Howard Bloom about the rest of the family. Okay, 171 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: we know where the mom stands, Howard, but what about 172 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: the dad. 173 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 4: I'm hearing from people close to the Coburger family, from 174 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 4: people close to the legal teams, that the real resistance 175 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 4: is coming from Brian's mother. His father is sort of 176 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 4: going with the flow. Neither one of them wants to 177 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 4: admit that their. 178 00:09:58,600 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 5: Son is guilty. 179 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: I leave your information, Howard Blame, author of the definitive book, 180 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: as of now on Brian Coberger. 181 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: When the night comes falling, Okay. 182 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: So that's the mom the dad who's kind of just 183 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,079 Speaker 1: following her lead. 184 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: What about the sisters, Howard blame. 185 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 5: The sisters are a different case from the parents. 186 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 4: One of them is a psychologist, a family psychologist, the 187 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 4: other one an aspiring actress. 188 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 5: They're both can confront. 189 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 4: The reality, it seems, with a lot more focus and 190 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 4: a lot more pain, perhaps than the parents. 191 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 5: They realize what is happening. But one sister raised questions 192 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,599 Speaker 5: originally with the father over the long Christmas. 193 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 4: Vacation after their trip father and son trip across country, 194 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 4: she raised questions about her brother, Brian Coberger. And when 195 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 4: she raised this to a father, what did the father do? 196 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 4: According to my sources, he just walked out of the room. 197 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 4: He could not deal with it. 198 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: I'm not surprised. 199 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: Joining me is Sidney Sumner, Crime Stories, investigative reporter on 200 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: the case from the very beginning. Sidney, let's think back 201 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: for a moment. We were first covering the raid on 202 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: the family's Pocono's home, remember, and they found Coburger wearing 203 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: shorts or underwear, but knowing him, probably shorts, okay, and 204 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: plastic gloves, you know, rubber gloves, and he was sorting 205 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: through trash and putting trash in individual plastic bags, or 206 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: so we've been told, and wait for it, then throwing 207 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: away the trash in the neighbor's Herbie Kirby, the neighbors 208 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: big outdoor trash bend. Ben I'm at that time, as 209 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: I recall, the sisters started asking then, hey, I think. 210 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: He did it. What do you think? Well, do you 211 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 2: remember that at the very beginning. 212 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, Nancy. So that's what the reports are saying now 213 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 3: is that his sisters were immediately suspicious after hearing news 214 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 3: of what was going on in Moscow. They had that 215 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 3: description of the car not long after Coburger got home 216 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 3: for Christmas, and they looked at their brother, they looked 217 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 3: at his car, and they were immediately concerned that he 218 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 3: was somehow involved. And as Bloom said, his sources are 219 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 3: saying that the parents completely shut those arguments down from 220 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 3: the sisters, would not even entertain a conversation about it. 221 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 3: And days later the FBI shows up at their. 222 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: House to arrest Brian. 223 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 3: And now we know the defense is going to blame 224 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 3: this odd behavior with the trash on Coberger's OCD diagnosis. 225 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 3: Who he's going to say this is an unusual behavior 226 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 3: for me. It may have looked odd considering I have 227 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 3: just been implicated in this crime, but I always handle 228 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 3: my trash weird. I had dream of photia, I have 229 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 3: OCD behaviors that require me to do this, or I 230 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 3: feel anxiety and stress. 231 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: Okay, Sidney, you're scaring me a little bit because you 232 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: sound like you actually believe that. Okay, just a quick 233 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: answer from doctor Bethany Marshall. Did you hear what Sidney 234 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: just said that he's going to try to explain away 235 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: his behavior of wearing plastic gloves or rubber gloves at 236 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: what three am? 237 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: Was it at three am? Said some crazy. 238 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: Time when they were watching it from outside walking around 239 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: the house on the inside three am? 240 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: Okay, So how can you explain he's not getting rid 241 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 2: of his trash. 242 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: He's separating his parents trash at his parents' Pocono's home, 243 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: wearing plastic gloves, probably a face covering too, putting it 244 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: in plastic bags and I bet they were baggies sellable baggies. 245 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: Don't know that yet, and putting it in the neighbor's trash. 246 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 2: How can that be? That's getting rid of evidence? 247 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: Bethany Hey, reader's digest answer, not the full volume. 248 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 7: I have never seen an OCD patient engage in this 249 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 7: kind of behavior, and if he did have OCD, he 250 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 7: would be avoiding the trash, not going towards it. 251 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: Okay, here's another thing to Joe Scott Morgan joining me, 252 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My 253 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon, death investigator over a thousand investigations under 254 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: his belt, and star of hit podcast Body Bags with 255 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan. 256 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: Joe Scott. 257 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: Separating the trash, putting it in little baggies, throwing it 258 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: in the neighbor's trash. Could any of that disruption of 259 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: the evidence possibly destroy DNA evidence? 260 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 2: And cops watched him. 261 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: Vacuuming, spraying with four nine or commet cleaning out his car. 262 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: What does it take to get rid of DNA evidence? 263 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: But you know you got to address is it hair? 264 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 2: Is it fiber? Is it blood? Is it touch? Respond? 265 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 9: Well, you know, when you're talking about these categories of 266 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 9: potential evidence, our DNA rich evidence that are there, the 267 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 9: first thing, I think, probably the first thing that's the 268 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 9: most fragile is going to be any components of hair, 269 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 9: because you can lose it pretty quickly. Even a strong 270 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 9: gust of wind can blow it away probably second along 271 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 9: that is going to be any kind of touch DNA. 272 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: We have to. 273 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 9: Remember that touch DNA actually presents as a result of 274 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 9: dead sloughing skin cells. So if you have dry skin, 275 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 9: you can appreciate how easily that can be lost very quickly. 276 00:15:53,560 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Gray exactly. 277 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: Let's play on one of the roommates has passed out 278 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: and she was strong class. 279 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 2: Oh and they tell some man in their house up. 280 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, joining us in all star panels straight out to 281 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: Howard Bloom, author of. 282 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 2: The definitive book on the Idaho murders. 283 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: When the night comes falling, Howard, we're talking about the 284 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: mother torpedoing the defense, and I've got to move on 285 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: very quickly because there's so much happening in the courtroom. 286 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: But do you believe any of the family is going 287 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: to take the stand. That's a very very tricky question 288 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: because it could open up his Coburger's. 289 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: Reputation, his past. If the family says one. 290 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: Slip up, all that's going to come into evidence, okay, 291 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: because it will be deemed the defense brought it up. 292 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: And also, what am I hearing about Coburger's sister is 293 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: writing a book. 294 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 4: I think, and again this is just my hypothesis that 295 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 4: Brian's sister, who is a psychologist, will be taken put 296 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 4: on the stand, I think, and what I'm hearing is 297 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 4: she might even confirm her brother's purchase of the Amazon 298 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 4: knife from Amazon and that she's seen him with it. 299 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 4: That again, I can't say that for a fact, but 300 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 4: this is what I am hearing. And I also think 301 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 4: that she is writing a book on this case. I've 302 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 4: heard that too, And so she's been delving into this 303 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 4: with a bit more objectivity, a bit more sensitivity, sensitivity 304 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 4: to the family drama she's living through, and I think 305 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 4: her the defense will not the defense, rather the prosecution 306 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 4: will put her on the stand to try to get 307 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 4: the answers to speaking. 308 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: Now, I'm very curious about how the sister is going 309 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: to testify regarding Brian Coburger ordered the knife that that 310 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: was him, because we know the defense is going to argue, 311 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: wait for it, a shared Amazon account. 312 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: But that said, can I just focus on the book. 313 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: The sister is writing a book. Oh please please. 314 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 2: Please, someone put her on the stand. Josh Ritter. 315 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: That opens up a whole can of worms for cross examination. 316 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: The sister may now have a pecuniary interest in the 317 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: outcome money interest in the outcome of this trial. Did 318 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: nobody learn anything from Becky Hill? The clerk in the 319 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: Murdog case? Remember Murdog murdered his wife, Maggie and son 320 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: Paul Okay. In that case, the clerk of court, Becky Hill, 321 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: who seemed like a perfectly wonderful person, reportedly said comments 322 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 1: to the jury that the defense claims made them come. 323 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 2: Back with a guilty verdict. 324 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 5: Yeah. 325 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 2: I don't believe that. She may have made offhand comments, 326 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 2: maybe even in jest, but. 327 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: They voted the way they wanted to vote. That said 328 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: she wrote a book, and she was drawn and quartered 329 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: over writing a book, suggesting that somehow she had a 330 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: money motive in the outcome of this trial, that she 331 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: said things to the jury to make them reach a 332 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: certain verdict so she could make money. It's kind of 333 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: preposterous that she could think that far in advance. 334 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 2: I don't think that happened. Do I think there'll be 335 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 2: any trial? Yes? Do I think it really happened. No, 336 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: same thing here, Josh Well in that case too. 337 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 6: That's such a great example, it led to near disaster 338 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 6: for the prosecution because the defense was able to make 339 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 6: great hay of it. I mean, these are no small 340 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 6: problems when you anytime you're calling a witness, as the prosecution, 341 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 6: you're hoping that that person is coming in with no motivations, 342 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 6: no biases that exist outside of court. Well, as you 343 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 6: point out, Nancy, what bigger interest could somebody have, but 344 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 6: that they look to gain money off of this. They 345 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 6: look to profit off of this. They look to profit 346 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 6: perhaps even by the outcome of it, but certainly by 347 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 6: the story of it. 348 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 2: It's not a. 349 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 5: Problem to be lightly dismissed. 350 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 6: I think it's definitely something the prosecution is going to 351 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 6: have to deal with. 352 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: The significance of putting the sister on the stand for 353 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: so many reasons. Watching him clean out his car immediately 354 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: after the murders, obsessively him cleaning out the trash, wearing 355 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: plastic gloves, sorting it and using the neighbors a trash disposal, 356 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: but also a shared Amazon account. 357 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 2: Is this really happening? 358 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: Do they think the jury will believe what the aging 359 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: mother and father ordered a k bar knife. 360 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: Listen, listen to the defense. 361 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 10: It's misleading that the way that you just portray it 362 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 10: that because there is a purchase in a household account, 363 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 10: that that is automatically attributable to him, and that there's 364 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 10: somehow purchase. 365 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 11: In the household account, it's attributed under his particular name 366 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 11: in the account, as I understand it, Now, could somebody 367 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 11: else in the family get to it? 368 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 2: I don't know. 369 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 11: I suppose you're an expert will tell us that. 370 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 3: But. 371 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 11: I'm not sure how that is excluded. And I'm not 372 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 11: sure how that's expert testimony. I understand you have an 373 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 11: expert to say, well, you know, all these other factors 374 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 11: come into play, and all these other things could have happened, 375 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 11: and okay, you can put that on, but I'm not 376 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 11: sure where that excludes the state's evidence. 377 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: Sidney Sumner, you've comed over every word that went down 378 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: in the courtroom. 379 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 2: The defense is arguing that there was a. 380 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 1: Joint account on Amazon and maybe somebody else ordered the 381 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: k bar knife and she you know, it reminds me 382 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: of top Mom Casey Anthony. 383 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 2: Okay, that's a nightmare right there. 384 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: But remember she did that damning search on how to 385 00:21:58,640 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: make homemade. 386 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 2: Chloroform and her daughter, little Kelly. 387 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: According to the state was drugged, unconscious and died in 388 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: the mom's trunk. All right, her mother Todd Mom's mother, 389 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: Cindy Anthony, gets on the stand and claims she was 390 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: doing a search for Chlora phil because of bamboo. 391 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 2: Growing in the backyard. Iighly did that to take the 392 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: heat off top mom. 393 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: Okay, So I guess the theory here is somebody else 394 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: in the family, on a shared Amazon account, ordered the 395 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: k bar knife and sheath, and then Sydney, they went 396 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: back and ordered a replacement knife when the first one 397 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,959 Speaker 1: got lost in a murder, and then tried to delete 398 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: the Amazon order history. 399 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 2: Really, is that what they're claiming? 400 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 3: Yes they are, And in their filing last month, giving 401 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 3: more detail into this argument, they mentioned that other camping 402 00:22:54,240 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 3: gear was purchased, a backpack, a tire repair kit, things 403 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 3: of that nature. So they're suggesting that, oh, this was 404 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 3: a usual purchase, this was a campaign type purchase and 405 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 3: not necessarily attributable to Brian because they share this family account. 406 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 2: And what's interesting about. 407 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 3: That, I do the same thing. I share an Amazon 408 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 3: account with my family, and I recently realized that, oh, 409 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 3: you can set up a separate account that's under this 410 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 3: household account. That uses your name particularly, so instead of 411 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 3: shopping as my mother or my father, I can shop 412 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 3: as myself and my purchase history is separate than the 413 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 3: other people on that household account. So they're going to 414 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 3: try and say that, oh, somebody else was using Brian's account, 415 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 3: and that just makes no sense. Why would somebody else 416 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 3: in his family go out of their way to specifically 417 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 3: shop as Brian and then have it delivered to Brian 418 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 3: and not someone else in the family. That's what they're 419 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 3: going to try and say, and I don't think it's 420 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 3: going to hold any wire. 421 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: Josh Ritter, She's right, And can I also say Ridder 422 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: that I'm so happy right now at the prospect the 423 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: defense calling the mom and the dad, I guess up 424 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: in their seventies at this juncture, I'm not sure about. 425 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 2: That to try to put them on the stand to 426 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 2: claim they ordered the camping gear, they ordered the k bar. 427 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: I mean, if they put that defense up, the state 428 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: is going to rebut and bring on and rebuttal every 429 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: single family member that had access to that Amazon account 430 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: and say did you order the k bar knife and 431 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: have it shipped to Brian Coburger. 432 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 2: They're not gonna lie about that under oath. I hope 433 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: they do it. Nothing can make me happier ridder. 434 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 6: Listen, the defense is holding the prosecution's feet to the 435 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 6: fire here. If they want to say he bought a 436 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 6: knife on the sh account and lo and behold that 437 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 6: account is shared by others, well then they better be 438 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 6: able to back it up and prove that in fact, 439 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 6: it was him purchasing it. Now, the idea that one 440 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 6: account can have several different logins and that you can 441 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 6: track that log into a particular individual, sure that sounds 442 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 6: like evidence that's pointing towards that direction. But who else 443 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 6: is able to access those different sub accounts? Are Does 444 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 6: that mean that you have to have a unique log 445 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 6: in information and password. I don't know. The problem is 446 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 6: we don't know the problem. 447 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: And I'm a little surprised because you're totally losing my point, 448 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: my point. Let me break it down for you, ritter 449 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: as if you need my help, please fine. 450 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 2: Go ahead to fence. 451 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: In fact, I assist you bring it up in the 452 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: opening statement that somebody else could have ordered the k 453 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 1: bar nine. Yes, it's on the state to prove he 454 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: did it. But you just heard Sydney sum it up 455 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: in about three sentences. It was very convincing. 456 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 2: Go ahead. 457 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: I'd be mad if you didn't, because once you do that, 458 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: the state is going to bring on everybody on that 459 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: family account and ask them under oath did. 460 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 2: You order it? Did you order it? Did you order it? 461 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: Did you order it? 462 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: And when every family member, all four of them, say no, 463 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,719 Speaker 1: I didn't order it, then the defense looks like a 464 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: big fat liar, and so does Brian Coburger. 465 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 2: So is that what you want, Ridder? 466 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 6: Or they say, I don't know. You're talking about purchases 467 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 6: made years ago. You're talking about we make several purchases, 468 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 6: including camping equipment, including things like knives. Is it impossible 469 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 6: that I ever purchased a knife in the past when 470 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 6: I have a specific memory of it. 471 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: Now, No, Look, somebody may fall for that BS in court, 472 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: but I'm not falling for it. I appreciate what you're doing. 473 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 1: It's very artful. It's wildy like a fox. But Joe 474 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, you hear Ridder comparing apples and oranges right here, 475 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: and that works a lot of time. My head blow 476 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: off in the court because I couldn' jump in like 477 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: I'm doing right now. 478 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 2: This is not about what may have been ordered three 479 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 2: years ago. This is about what was. 480 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: Ordered just before four students were slaughtered butchered in their 481 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: beds by. 482 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 2: Akbar knife, by a knife matching the one Coburger ordered. 483 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: So, Joe Scott, the knife, you want to tell me 484 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: a knife this size, a military knife. Let's see a 485 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: picture of the knife. Please control room. That Mama and 486 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: Pau Pau bought the knife. Sister, the one writing the book, 487 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: the shrink the other one what they bought a knife 488 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: just before the murders and had it shipped to Coburger. 489 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: Tell us about the knife. 490 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 9: It's a combat knife, Nancy, and our troopers have carried 491 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 9: it since literally prior to World War Two. The Coast's 492 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 9: used it, Navy used it on decks, but it's generally 493 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 9: associated with the United States Marine Corps. As matter of fact, 494 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 9: the sheath that he had had the anchor globe and 495 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 9: eagle and blazoned on the sheet itself, and it said USMC. 496 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 9: All right. So with that said, we have to understand. 497 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 9: So if you're going to purchase a knife, let's say 498 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 9: you want to go hunting, there are a lot more 499 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 9: There are a lot more knives out there that would 500 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 9: be more apropos for hunting. Perhaps, Why would somebody up 501 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 9: in age want this knife? What are they going to do? 502 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 9: Sit around? Are they going to peel apples with it? 503 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 9: Peel potatoes with it back in the kitchen. I don't 504 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 9: understand the utility of it in a common household. And 505 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 9: I think one of the things that we're kind of 506 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 9: skipping over here we keep talking about ordering. I want 507 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 9: to know about delivery. Where was it delivered to? Was 508 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 9: there any contact with the person it was delivered too. 509 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 9: I'd be interested to know if we're going to have 510 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 9: a driver that's going to get up on the stand 511 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 9: and make testimony. I don't know how they'll keep track 512 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 9: of all that sort of thing, but there will be 513 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 9: a tracking relative to this. You know, we're tracking who's 514 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 9: ordering the thing, but who took delivery up, When did 515 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 9: it show up, where did it show up. All of 516 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 9: these little intricacies are going to be playing into this 517 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 9: as well. 518 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 2: Nan, Hey, what about this? 519 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: A lot of drivers AB or Amazon have, like cops 520 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: have dash can video going on. I wonder if that 521 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: has been retrieved or I'm trying to remember. I think 522 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: I have it in my notes when I went to 523 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: Coburger's pulling An apartment, spoke to all of his neighbors. 524 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I saw cameras. I'm not sure because 525 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: I looked at so many places. But if there is 526 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: surveillance from that day from that delivery man, that would 527 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: be a bombshell. But here is the fly in the ointment. 528 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: At the time the knife was ordered, it was eight 529 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: months before the murders. 530 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: Okay, so at that. 531 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: Time Coburger was not yet living in Pullman. His dad 532 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: hadn't driven him out there and tried to make friends 533 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: for him. Right, he actually went to neighbors saying, hey, 534 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: could you be friend my son. 535 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: He's very much of a loner. 536 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: So anyway, the knife did go to the family's place. 537 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: Now wait, wait, wait, Sidney Sumner, I may have an 538 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: answer for that. After the murders, isn't it true that 539 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: someone went online to order a replacement knife. Was that 540 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: replacement knife ever delivered? 541 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 3: No, Nancy, a replacement knife was never purchased. But in 542 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 3: the week after the homicides, somebody did go online on 543 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 3: that shared Oberger family account and look at similar knives 544 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 3: to the one that was used allegedly in the murders. 545 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: Okay, In Sydney. Isn't it true that someone also went 546 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: on and try to delete the Amazon search history? I 547 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: know for a fact that that's possible because Santa tries 548 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: to delete the search history, so the Christmas recipients don't 549 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: see the search history on the shared Amazon accounts. 550 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 2: See, this jury's going to know all of this, the 551 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 2: ins and out. Did someone try to delete the search history? 552 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 3: That's also correct. We're still trying to get some more 553 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 3: details on that timeline, and again all of this will 554 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 3: come out much more clearly during the trial. 555 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 2: But we believe the time. 556 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 3: That has purchased eight months before the murders, at some 557 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 3: point after that knife is delivered, somebody tries to go 558 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 3: in and delete record of that purchase. And then a 559 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 3: week after the murders, how many goes and books at 560 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 3: that knife? Again on Amazon. 561 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, you know, Chris mcdonnald and 562 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: joining me Director Cold Case Foundation also starred the Interview 563 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: Room on YouTube. Chris, you first raised the alarm and 564 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: the wave the red flag on the Amazon analytics months 565 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: and months and months ago. Why do they care? What 566 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: are they looking for? And now we know, Chris, you 567 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: were right? 568 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 11: Yeah? 569 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 8: And what Doc Morgan was talking about, I mean, the 570 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 8: intricacy of that particular knife. If you look at it, 571 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 8: that knife has what they call a blood groove in it. 572 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 8: Uh that that knife is designed to kill. It was 573 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 8: designed for the military. So when you when you talk about, 574 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 8: you know, another fly in the ointment for a moment here, Nancy, 575 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 8: Let's also remember that somehow that knife sheath ends up 576 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 8: a couple of thousand miles away underneath one of the 577 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 8: victims in this case. So if the family's going to say, 578 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 8: you know, hypothetically, if the defense is going to say, yeah, 579 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 8: the mom or the dad or whoever, the two sisters 580 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,719 Speaker 8: ordered this knife, well great, let's see their DNA. 581 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 5: Let's see their DNA on that knife sheath. 582 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 2: Scott. Yeah. 583 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 9: One of my biggest things here, Nancy, is the fact 584 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 9: that if you go back and you look at this 585 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 9: idea of who ordered the knife, if all of I 586 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 9: don't know who's domicile in his house in Pennsylvania along 587 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 9: with him, his mom and dad. I don't know if 588 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 9: the sisters are there. I have no idea, but I 589 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 9: do know this, If the occupants of that domicile are 590 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 9: compelled to testify in this trial, not only are they 591 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 9: going to say, well, did you order it on the 592 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 9: family account? They're going to be asked a follow up question, well, 593 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 9: we know that it was delivered, did you sign for it, 594 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,239 Speaker 9: did you take it off the porch? Did you receive it? 595 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 9: And there's going to be a big dead silence in 596 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 9: that in that courtroom, because I don't know unless somebody 597 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,479 Speaker 9: were bold enough to try to cover their tracks for 598 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 9: this guy or try to lie on his behalf. Not 599 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 9: that they would, but aside from that, there's going to 600 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 9: be silence in the courtroom because we know who took 601 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 9: delivery of a knife or who collected it off of 602 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 9: the porch. No one else is going to be there 603 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 9: saying that they saw it. 604 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 2: Okay, And how old is she? 605 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,280 Speaker 6: She's twenty twenty, you said. 606 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 10: Twenty. 607 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 11: Here's okay them clo, clo. 608 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 7: Okay. 609 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 6: I need someone who stops passing the phone around because 610 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 6: I've talked to four different people. 611 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 5: Hey, sorry, they just give me the phone. 612 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 2: Is she breathing? 613 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 7: Will Hello? 614 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 5: Is she breathing? No? 615 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: You are hearing a female resident of the home on 616 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: King Road and they had called a friend over and 617 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: you hear the friends say get out, get out, get out, 618 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: because he did not want Dylan and or Bethany the 619 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,720 Speaker 1: roommates to come and see Xana's butchered body. 620 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 2: Speaking of Dylan Mortenson. 621 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: We believe that there is a move of foot to 622 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: have her on the stand for many reasons, but to 623 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: make a voice an in court in front of the 624 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: jury voice identification of Brian Coburger. 625 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 2: Remember the roommates, one or both of them heard I'm 626 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 2: here to help you. I'm here to help you. 627 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: That was said to the murder victims before they were slaughtered. 628 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: Now we know Coburger may not take the stand, So 629 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: how can Dylan make a voice identification comparing Coberger's voice 630 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: to what she heard that night? 631 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 2: Here's a good way. 632 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 4: What actually happened was I was stuck in the middle 633 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 4: of the intersection. 634 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 6: Yeah, I was by you full time. 635 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we just got this for you anyway, I'm 636 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: just gonna get this out here, okay. 637 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 2: So can you would. 638 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 6: Explain that to me a little bit further So, in Pennsylvania, when. 639 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 9: You're stuck with in their tear. 640 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: Section, you have to make the left. 641 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 6: So what would what would the appropriate thing for me 642 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 6: to have done? Just Yeah, it's a little bit of 643 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:45,280 Speaker 6: confusion with sweeding because someone has stopped. I wasn't sure 644 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 6: what they were doing, and then they put on their 645 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 6: light to turn Okay. 646 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: We all learned from the OJ Simpson double murder trial. 647 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: Never perform a demonstration in front of the jury that 648 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: you have not practice. Remember when Johnny Cochrane tried to 649 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: pull the glove onto OJ Simpson's hand, it was as 650 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: big as a Virginia ham. Let me just say that, 651 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: I think I could have gotten it on his hand. 652 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,919 Speaker 1: But that said Dylan Mortenson on the stand to make 653 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: a voice id of Brian Coberger. 654 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 2: Has it ever been. 655 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: Done to our forensics professor Joe Scott Morgan. 656 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 9: I'm glad you threw this to me, Nancy, because one 657 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,879 Speaker 9: of the things I'm thinking about. We rely on eyewitness 658 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 9: ear witness, and I'm thinking, does that fall into the 659 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 9: same category. Because one of the problems is, and I 660 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 9: can't speak to this because she's a non forensic scientist, 661 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 9: she hasn't worked at Laneley, you know, where they can 662 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,439 Speaker 9: run these tapes and they so I think that that's 663 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 9: going to be a major sticking point. They can say, 664 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 9: well does it sound like the same person? And I 665 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 9: can see the defense objecting to this because they'll say 666 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 9: she's not qualified to make this assessment. So I think 667 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 9: that the chances of her being able to actually make 668 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 9: an ID and that be accepted in court, even if 669 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 9: it gets that far, are slim and none. 670 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 1: Well, you know what, Joskott Morgan, let me remind you. Wait, 671 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: maybe I'm wrong. 672 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:17,720 Speaker 2: Did you go to law school behind my back? 673 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 9: No, I've been sitting at her feet all these years 674 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 9: learning from you. 675 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 2: So, Joshua Ridder, she absolutely. 676 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,479 Speaker 1: I mean, if she can do it, she absolutely will 677 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: be allowed on the stand to make a voice comparison. 678 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 2: Right, there's no hoop for her to go to. 679 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: She won't be testifying as an expert. She will be 680 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: making a comparison to what she heard that night. Of course, 681 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,479 Speaker 1: they will practice ahead of time, and if she can't 682 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: make it, then they won't put her up for that reason. 683 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,280 Speaker 1: But josh Ridder, there's nothing to disallow her from making 684 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: that comparison. My question to you is, I wonder if 685 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: that's why they did not have him speak in court. 686 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: He didn't enter his own plate, he doesn't say anything. 687 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: The lawyer entered the not guilty plate for him. I 688 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: wonder if that's why they're keeping him quiet, so there 689 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: won't be any in court audio of him for her 690 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: to compare. 691 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 6: That is an interesting point that I had never put 692 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 6: together before as to why he we've never heard him 693 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,879 Speaker 6: actually speak in court. But you're right, I mean, as 694 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 6: far as asking her to make the identification, I don't 695 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 6: know if the judge legally can prevent them, but if 696 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 6: I'm the defense, I am still going blue in the 697 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 6: face objecting to this because think of how this could 698 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 6: work out. 699 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 2: One she could say, yeah, yeah, that's how it's going 700 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 2: to work out. 701 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 6: And then the jury is going to accept that as 702 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:44,800 Speaker 6: an absolute ideation of the defendant. 703 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 5: And if she. 704 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 6: Doesn't identify it, if she says I can't tell he 705 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 6: heard the speaking, the prosecution cries that a word. Yeah, 706 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 6: but the prosecution can explain it away, Ritter. 707 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: That's what happens when the state puts up damning evidence. 708 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 2: The jury believes it. But you know another issue. 709 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: We don't have to have him testify, because isn't it true, 710 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: Chris mcdonney, you've executed plenty of search warrants while the 711 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: defendant doesn't have to give a statement or speak to 712 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: police under the constitution. Right to remain silent fit amendment. 713 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: They can be forced to comply to a DNA sample, 714 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: they can be made to walk and get their gait. 715 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: They can be forced compelled to give a writing sample. 716 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,280 Speaker 1: They can be forced to give a speaking sample. 717 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:39,919 Speaker 5: Yep. 718 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 8: Absolutely, and then you could give that to an acoustics 719 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 8: expert who can measure those you know, those tremors from 720 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 8: the voice. 721 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 5: One loophole though, is the acoustics in the house. 722 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 8: I think the defense can argue, Hey, the house is gone, 723 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,879 Speaker 8: we can't do a comparative analysis. 724 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: Thank you for tipping him off to that, Chris McDonald, 725 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall. Again, the whole specter of his autism 726 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: and his OCD has been raised. 727 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:09,760 Speaker 2: The judge has said. 728 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: Point blank, and I've got him on tape saying he 729 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 1: doesn't appear to be impinged in any way. So unless 730 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: he takes a stand, you're not bringing in autism because 731 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: he's exhibited no odd behavior. 732 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 2: In the courtroom at all. Is that real? 733 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 1: What would you expect to see from someone that's barely 734 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: under the spectrum. 735 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,919 Speaker 7: Well, first of all, we're all on the spectrum. 736 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,239 Speaker 2: Everybody is neuroatypical. 737 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 7: So the idea that he is special in any real 738 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 7: way I do not buy the fact that he. 739 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 2: Was a PhD student. 740 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 7: He was getting through school functioning at a very high level. 741 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 2: That means that. 742 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 7: He's competent enough to stand trial. Now, if I were 743 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 7: the defense attorneys, I would not be introducing autism for 744 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 7: a very specific reason, and that is that people who 745 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 7: are very severe in terms of their diagnosis tend to 746 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:07,959 Speaker 7: have preoccupations. So if there's a homicidal preoccupation, it would 747 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 7: be very difficult for an autistic person to get that 748 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,800 Speaker 7: out of their mind. They also have preoccupations with physical objects. 749 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 7: It could be a train, it could be a book, 750 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 7: it could be a knife, a knife that's ordered eight 751 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 7: months before a murder, a knife that's re ordered again 752 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 7: because that autistic person is obsessed with the knife. So 753 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 7: I would be very careful with this autistic diagnosis if 754 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 7: I were them. 755 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 2: Really, it can cut both ways. 756 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,720 Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. A trial date set forward 757 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:43,319 Speaker 1: this summer, and we will be there. Nancy Grace signing off, 758 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: goodbye friend.