Speaker 1: Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2: Okay, so this week's Therapy Thursday, Whine about It, we
Speaker 2: have a very special guest that actually both Catherine and
Speaker 2: I know. I'm how do I say this, I'm almost
Speaker 2: having like a hard time tiptoeing around certain things because
Speaker 2: there's certain things that I had to edit out of
Speaker 2: maybe something.
Speaker 3: That I was working on.
Speaker 2: So long story short, the woman that's about to come
Speaker 2: on has been someone in both of our lives for
Speaker 2: a while.
Speaker 1: I go ahead, I don't know her that well. I
Speaker 1: do not know her that well. No, I know more
Speaker 1: of her, so you know her better than I. But yes,
Speaker 1: I have known of her and her story for a while.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's we really connected because we were going
Speaker 2: through the same thing the same time seven years ago.
Speaker 2: So she has a book out, well, first of her
Speaker 2: name's Brandy Wilson, and she's she's incredible. But she's got
Speaker 2: a book out called Better Than Okay, and I'm halfway
Speaker 2: through it. But it's finding hope and healing after your
Speaker 2: marriage ends. I even did like a little thing for
Speaker 2: her on her book just to because it's I just
Speaker 2: I love I love.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: First of all, I just I love how she writes too.
Speaker 2: It's just very real. You feel like you're in it.
Speaker 2: So let's get her on. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Brandy Wilson.
Speaker 4: Hey, y'all.
Speaker 1: Hi Katherine.
Speaker 4: I'm wondering if I get to see you.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm usually not on these, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I want to be there when Brandy is on. So
Speaker 1: I'm here today.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: She had a she had a direct, you know, and
Speaker 2: I remember that you had mentioned it to me and
Speaker 2: I was like, all right, Kat, this is my episode
Speaker 2: with Brandy.
Speaker 3: She's like, I'm there.
Speaker 1: Yep, I'm here. Yeah, so excited.
Speaker 4: That makes me happy. Jana, how are you feeling?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm feeling all right.
Speaker 2: I just got off a flight early morning, you know,
Speaker 2: four am lobby call, so that was fun. But yeah, no,
Speaker 2: I'm feeling you know, I'm feeling good, feeling feeling pregnant,
Speaker 2: feeling feeling the uh you know, every week it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: this hurts a little bit more.
Speaker 3: This is this is harder. But no, it's great.
Speaker 2: I'm super grateful and I'm just I'm so proud of
Speaker 2: you and you know your book is is out better
Speaker 2: than okay, And first of all, can we I like
Speaker 2: I was saying in the beginning of the show, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I feel like I need to maybe tiptoe around certain things.
Speaker 2: And you know, I've read now I'm halfway through your book,
Speaker 2: and the things that you share are you don't you
Speaker 2: don't give it all, right, right?
Speaker 3: But also if people google, they would.
Speaker 2: Know who you're talking about for sure, Yes, right, yes,
Speaker 2: so okay, so you start with what you want to
Speaker 2: share for the listeners that have that don't know your story.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so.
Speaker 4: You're correct. I did go through a legal edit before
Speaker 4: the book went to final print, just in order to
Speaker 4: make sure I was protecting myself. I think I worked
Speaker 4: really hard for it to be my personal story of
Speaker 4: how God chose to begin in me, or how God
Speaker 4: chose to begin a new work in me as I
Speaker 4: chose to begin again, and to make the story about
Speaker 4: what He had done in my life rather than what
Speaker 4: had happened to me. I think, you know, I also
Speaker 4: have children, so I'm not going to air out dirty
Speaker 4: laundry in a book about their dad. I wanted to
Speaker 4: be able to show the strength of how you get
Speaker 4: through really hard things and continue to keep going. So, yeah,
Speaker 4: my story started when I was eighteen and met a
Speaker 4: guy at college who I ended up dating for three
Speaker 4: years and then was married at that point. So married
Speaker 4: around twenty one t twenty two, and we were in ministry.
Speaker 4: He was pastoring a church. We started a church in
Speaker 4: Kentucky and we stayed there for five or six years
Speaker 4: before moving to Nashville and starting a church here in Nashville.
Speaker 4: Cross Point Church, which you know, I really loved being
Speaker 4: part of. Cross Point, still exists today. It's still thriving.
Speaker 4: In fact, you attend Jana, that's still your church. I
Speaker 4: was there for your baptism last year. But we were
Speaker 4: in leadership at cross Point for fourteen years, and I
Speaker 4: really loved my life in ministry. I loved being the
Speaker 4: pastor's wife, engaging with the staff, spending you know, tuesdays
Speaker 4: at the office doing staff meeting with them, having lunch together,
Speaker 4: having them to my home, just really doing life with
Speaker 4: that group of people who had chosen to be part
Speaker 4: of the staff community at cross Point. And in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 4: my husband at the time chose to step away from
Speaker 4: the church and the ministry we had started there, and
Speaker 4: from our marriage as well as our family and my
Speaker 4: life fell apart overnight. And we all three know that
Speaker 4: when your life publicly falls apart, it's been falling apart
Speaker 4: behind the scenes for a really long time. But I
Speaker 4: still did not expect the whiplash of everything changing as
Speaker 4: quickly as it did. So I found myself a single
Speaker 4: mom at forty two, kind of starting all over and
Speaker 4: putting the pieces of my life back together. And I
Speaker 4: realized pretty quickly that the beauty in all of it
Speaker 4: was that this time I got to put the pieces
Speaker 4: of my life back together the way I chose. So
Speaker 4: I wanted to make sure that I was creating the
Speaker 4: life that I loved living, and creating a healthy life
Speaker 4: for my boys and ies. We move forward.
Speaker 2: In the book, you had said the narrative being repeated
Speaker 2: was about an overworked pastor who has burned out. The
Speaker 2: reality was I'd been sleeping alone, not by my own choice,
Speaker 2: for more than six months. In my heart, I was
Speaker 2: sure my suspicions were correct. The brokenness went much deeper.
Speaker 2: Trust had once again been broken, and I was experiencing
Speaker 2: devastating heartbreak. And so I feel like you give enough
Speaker 2: to let people know the pain that you were in,
Speaker 2: and I really like I respect that because I think
Speaker 2: there was a I would could imagine having that narrative
Speaker 2: and being like, did you just want to like scream
Speaker 2: it from the rooftops or like this is this is
Speaker 2: what happened, and like this is how like hurt I am.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, of course I wanted to discream it from
Speaker 4: the rooftops. I think the way it all unfolded, and
Speaker 4: you both remember, it's just like pieces of information. We're
Speaker 4: floated here and there, you know, being able to really
Speaker 4: dig in and find the truth of what was going
Speaker 4: on to forever or it felt like forever, but definitely
Speaker 4: a few months for things to unfold. And even in
Speaker 4: that there was still deception and manipulation, and there was hiding.
Speaker 4: So I think I just I had been in that
Speaker 4: scenario quite a few times in my marriage where trust
Speaker 4: had been broken. There had been a third party who
Speaker 4: was part of my marriage that had happened a ton
Speaker 4: a few times I was aware of. I realized at
Speaker 4: the end there were quite a few times, quite a
Speaker 4: few people I wasn't aware of and didn't know until
Speaker 4: the end. I will say, when I was aware of it,
Speaker 4: we did what we were quote unquote supposed to do
Speaker 4: and did counseling and you know, kind of tried to
Speaker 4: work through the problems in the relationship. But when only
Speaker 4: one person wants to fix a marriage, that's not enough.
Speaker 4: So I was there willing to try to fix it,
Speaker 4: put the pieces of our life back together, tried to
Speaker 4: really be able to get to a point where there
Speaker 4: was a healthier dynamic. But we have to have two
Speaker 4: parties who want to do that, two parties each person,
Speaker 4: the husband and the wife, have to show up being
Speaker 4: willing to do the work together. And I was the
Speaker 4: only one willing to do that work. So at that point,
Speaker 4: I moved forward with the divorce. And honestly, you know,
Speaker 4: never expected divorce to be part of my story. I
Speaker 4: don't think anyone does. I mean, you guys are both married.
Speaker 4: No one walks the aisle on their wedding day and
Speaker 4: things like, oh, I'm going to give it a good
Speaker 4: ten years, or you know, when they're opening their wedding gifts,
Speaker 4: think I'm going to keep this in the divorce and
Speaker 4: give him that. Or you know, the worst part you
Speaker 4: know this, Janna, is you don't hold your baby in
Speaker 4: the hospital and think I can't wait to spend even
Speaker 4: number of Christmases with you. It is just not a
Speaker 4: reality that anyone foresees in their marriage.
Speaker 1: I want to not pivot, but pivot a little bit.
Speaker 1: I would love to talk a little bit about your
Speaker 1: boys and how I just I'm so fascinated by y'all
Speaker 1: story in general, but just I have so many questions.
Speaker 1: But just when you decided you wanted to write a book,
Speaker 1: when you were you know, you were prompted for that.
Speaker 1: Were you nervous to tell the boys? Were you you know,
Speaker 1: how did that go down? Or are they worried about it?
Speaker 1: Like I just can imagine that was probably a little scary.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And one of your chapters too is I googled Dad,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I got to read this because
Speaker 2: that's going to be something too where I'm like, they're
Speaker 2: they're going to google our story one day. And you know,
Speaker 2: I have left personally a lot of stuff out of
Speaker 2: my book to protect my children, but there are also
Speaker 2: some things that you know, they're obviously going to hear
Speaker 2: or see that you know has been public from both
Speaker 2: of us, and so I think, you know, obviously they
Speaker 2: saw the headlines your boys they googled at their school,
Speaker 2: I think is what you said in the in the book.
Speaker 3: But then yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean Tikat's question, it's like, did you then say like, hey, guys,
Speaker 2: I'm writing a book, how do you feel about this?
Speaker 4: Or yeah, you know we are like we have a
Speaker 4: great little family unit, the four of us, I call
Speaker 4: us us four. And one of the things I did
Speaker 4: when we moved into this I sold the house that
Speaker 4: I'd lived in when I was married, bought a new house,
Speaker 4: new to house, And one of the things I was
Speaker 4: super adamant about is like, what do I want the
Speaker 4: values of our family to be? And the first one
Speaker 4: was honesty, Like this is a house of truth. So
Speaker 4: I allowed my kids to come to me with anything,
Speaker 4: and I'm super honest with them as well. And you know,
Speaker 4: we had to figure that out. But we had all
Speaker 4: four of us lived under so much deception and so
Speaker 4: many lies that I just was very clear, this is
Speaker 4: not the life we live anymore and this home will
Speaker 4: not function that way. So a lot of questions had
Speaker 4: been asked before I of my kids and about the
Speaker 4: reality of the situation before I got to the point
Speaker 4: of writing the book. My oldest son has heard me
Speaker 4: speak a few times. My other boys, you know, they
Speaker 4: see what I post on Instagram, so they kind of
Speaker 4: know that I'm not going to write a tell all
Speaker 4: about our life. I feel like I have modeled how
Speaker 4: to deal with the hurt and the pain that I've
Speaker 4: experienced and also choose to live a life where I
Speaker 4: am healing and moving forward. So I think because they
Speaker 4: have seen that in the life I live, it didn't
Speaker 4: necessarily scare them. I also didn't write anything that they
Speaker 4: didn't know. Now, they might not have known some of
Speaker 4: the details of you know, maybe how I bought the house,
Speaker 4: or the details of that weekend in Vegas where my
Speaker 4: husband told me he never ever loved me. They might
Speaker 4: not have known those details. But as far as the
Speaker 4: stuff about trust being broken, and my kids are aware
Speaker 4: of that. They actually when my divorce happened, they knew
Speaker 4: a lot of information that they filled me on that
Speaker 4: I was still trying to put the pieces of life
Speaker 4: back together. So I was really clear when I told
Speaker 4: them I was writing a book, like, if you have
Speaker 4: any questions, I'll answer them. My oldest son has read it.
Speaker 4: He loved it, super complimentary, told me he was going
Speaker 4: to take some of my tips from the dating chapter
Speaker 4: O life, which was interesting. My other two have kind
Speaker 4: of skimmed it, flipped through it, you know, haven't finished
Speaker 4: it fully, but have both said like, yeah, we think
Speaker 4: it's great, and any questions we have will ask you
Speaker 4: when we finish reading. So I've just left that door
Speaker 4: open for them to be able to ask any questions.
Speaker 4: You know, the I Google Dad thing, I think there
Speaker 4: were a couple. I think when my oldest son, for instance,
Speaker 4: was reading that and he saw I Google Dad, he has,
Speaker 4: you know, heart stopped for a second and he was like,
Speaker 4: she's going to go there. And then the chapter is
Speaker 4: really about telling your kids age appropriate truth, so it's
Speaker 4: not necessarily about what was found when he googled, but
Speaker 4: it was about the weight he carried because that's the
Speaker 4: reality of his life. And then the conversation he and
Speaker 4: I had following his admission that he had googled his dad.
Speaker 3: Right in the beginning of the book too.
Speaker 2: I love that you you start off by saying, you know,
Speaker 2: it's obviously the book that you never wanted to write
Speaker 2: or to have, and then same for the people that
Speaker 2: you know pick it up. But you go to first
Speaker 2: to the first thing I want you to hear is
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I'm sorry for your heartache. I'm sorry for
Speaker 2: your shattered dreams. I'm sorry you're putting the pieces of
Speaker 2: your life back together. And I remember talking to Lisa
Speaker 2: Turkers about that. You know, just women in our situation normally,
Speaker 2: or in a lot of you know, hurts full situations,
Speaker 2: you don't really get the apology you ever want or
Speaker 2: deserve or and so you know we had, we had
Speaker 2: I believe discussed that too. And I'm curious, how many
Speaker 2: years has it been now since your divorce? Six and
Speaker 2: a half six and a half years?
Speaker 4: Wow, yeah, we were separated a year before, but yeah,
Speaker 4: six and a half years.
Speaker 2: So I'm curious have you did you ever receive the
Speaker 2: sorry that you felt you deserved?
Speaker 4: Yeah? No, and I don't think I ever will. And
Speaker 4: I'm okay with that.
Speaker 2: Because I definitely know you know the route that I
Speaker 2: how I got mine for myself.
Speaker 3: But like, how did you? Yeah, how you? How did
Speaker 3: you walk through that?
Speaker 4: Yeah? I think forgiveness is a process, and sometimes I
Speaker 4: think we jumped to forgiveness too quickly. And then I
Speaker 4: also think, you know, Janna, you know this, and sharing kids.
Speaker 4: It's like I have forgiven for a lot of the stuff,
Speaker 4: but there are still issues that pop up that I
Speaker 4: have to continually work through the forgiveness process with. So
Speaker 4: for me, a lot of that was my own healing
Speaker 4: journey of being able to you know, I remember one
Speaker 4: of the things I did. I was actually at on
Speaker 4: site doing the Living Centered program and a program Oh
Speaker 4: my gosh, it's excellent. One of the things I did
Speaker 4: was I wrote down everything that he had done that
Speaker 4: hurt me, you know, all the way down to like
Speaker 4: using my miscarriage as an illustration in a book and
Speaker 4: not telling me until I read it, you know, like
Speaker 4: details of our life that were really hard for me
Speaker 4: to navigate, and I wrote it all down. I had
Speaker 4: a couple of pages. I had a friend there that
Speaker 4: I was close to, and I just said, I need
Speaker 4: to read these out loud. So he met me outside
Speaker 4: by the fire pit. I went through and I read
Speaker 4: every single offense out loud, and then after I tore
Speaker 4: it up and burned it. It just allowed me to
Speaker 4: be able to release a lot of that anger and
Speaker 4: frustration and disappointment that I had been carrying, so I
Speaker 4: could get to a point of being able to extend
Speaker 4: forgiveness even though I'd never received an apology.
Speaker 3: Did he know that you were writing this book.
Speaker 4: He has referenced it a few times in communication, but
Speaker 4: not specific so you didn't you didn't.
Speaker 2: Tell him like before, like, hey, I have a book
Speaker 2: coming out. Okay, No, I've always wondered like how to
Speaker 2: how certain people approach it because I when I was
Speaker 2: talking to my legal my legal team at HarperCollins, I
Speaker 2: was like, you know, legally does he get or read
Speaker 2: or like cause it yeah, they go through legal passes
Speaker 2: and everything, and you know, for me, I was like
Speaker 2: I I I ended up just going I just want
Speaker 2: you to know I do have a book coming out.
Speaker 2: And what I said to him, I was like, it's
Speaker 2: not about you, like, it's truly about my journey. Yes,
Speaker 2: my our stories are in there kind of like what
Speaker 2: you've put in here, like your stories, but it's about
Speaker 2: your growth and your healing. And that's what I was,
Speaker 2: you know, trying to convey. But I think you know,
Speaker 2: it's it's just it's tough because I'm like, do you
Speaker 2: want to read it like beforehand or I'm like nothing,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to change anything, you know. I'm like,
Speaker 2: it's it was like, trust me, I've left a lot out,
Speaker 2: you know. I'm like because it's.
Speaker 3: Really not about.
Speaker 2: You can later exactly, but it's like it's protection for
Speaker 2: the kids, you know, and that's you know, so that's
Speaker 2: I get why you left certain things out. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, the sorry piece, I was just curious
Speaker 2: if he end up coming back.
Speaker 1: But that tracks well, here's my question with that, And
Speaker 1: I keep taking it kind of back to the kids,
Speaker 1: and a lot of it I think is because my
Speaker 1: parents got divorced when I was older and I didn't
Speaker 1: know anything, and so I went through, you know, my
Speaker 1: mom was kind of the one that left the house,
Speaker 1: that was the one that I'm leaving. So I just
Speaker 1: went through this assumption that she did X, Y and Z,
Speaker 1: and We're not going to have a relationship. I want
Speaker 1: nothing to do with her. How do you handle that
Speaker 1: with the boy? Like how is their relationship with their
Speaker 1: father with knowing what they know, and like, how do
Speaker 1: how do you help handle that situation?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I honestly stay out of their relationship with their dad
Speaker 4: unless they come to me with something. My kids at
Speaker 4: this point are twenty two, nineteen and seventeen, so to
Speaker 4: going to college, high school, and it got a lot
Speaker 4: easier when they could drive themselves on the weekends that
Speaker 4: they go there. You know, I have the kids the
Speaker 4: majority of the time. It's like a seventy thirty split,
Speaker 4: so they're with me the majority of the time. So
Speaker 4: I really am the one who steps in and I
Speaker 4: do all the doctor's appointments and the parenting, you know stuff.
Speaker 4: But as far as their relationship, if they want to
Speaker 4: come to me to talk about something, I am open
Speaker 4: to allowing them to be a play, allowing myself to
Speaker 4: be a place that they convent. And one of the
Speaker 4: things I try to do, Catherine is definitely affirm what
Speaker 4: they're feeling so that they learn to trust their gut.
Speaker 4: I think one of the things that kept me so
Speaker 4: locked into the marriage and the dysfunction and the unhealth
Speaker 4: of that marriage is I was married to someone who
Speaker 4: was a pastor of a super successful church, one of
Speaker 4: the fastest growing churches in the nation. And everyone in
Speaker 4: my life told me how amazing he was. Everyone was
Speaker 4: telling me how awesome, you know, his messages were, how
Speaker 4: they changed their life, all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4: The staff loved working with him, So I almost adopted
Speaker 4: this mentality of I guess I'm the problem if the
Speaker 4: person that I see on stage and the person in
Speaker 4: my home are not the same person then, and everyone's
Speaker 4: telling me he's amazing that. I guess I'm the problem
Speaker 4: because when I had those intuitions, no one was affirming
Speaker 4: those for me. So therefore I felt like I couldn't
Speaker 4: trust myself. I couldn't trust my gut. I couldn't trust,
Speaker 4: you know, my women's intuition because it went against everything
Speaker 4: that everyone else was telling me. So when my kids
Speaker 4: come to me and they want to have a discussion,
Speaker 4: I end up having that discussion with them, and I
Speaker 4: affirm the truth of the situation. I affirm the reality
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna talk terribly about their dad because I
Speaker 4: know that's not healthy for them. I'm also, you know,
Speaker 4: I try. When I'm communicating with him, I separate, like
Speaker 4: am I responding to my kid's father or am I
Speaker 4: responding to my ex husband. I can be a lot
Speaker 4: more grace filled and kind when I'm responding to my
Speaker 4: kid's father than I can when I'm responding to my
Speaker 4: ex husband. So I think when kids come to parents
Speaker 4: with questions and they say, you know, something to the
Speaker 4: effect of like, it's like he is always lying. I
Speaker 4: don't think a mother should ever say back, your dad's
Speaker 4: a liar. She can affirm your dad is incapable of
Speaker 4: telling the truth. So I know that's really hard for
Speaker 4: you to be able to have conversation with him. Now,
Speaker 4: it's the same reality. It's just saying in a gentle
Speaker 4: way and also affirming what they're realizing. The truth of
Speaker 4: the situation is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you basically said in the book, Yeah, he was
Speaker 2: saying like your dad is a liar, one approach you
Speaker 2: could take to affirm their feelings, and then saying your
Speaker 2: dad has an inability to tell the truth. So it's
Speaker 2: the same information, different delivery. Firms your child is experiencing,
Speaker 2: but doesn't use harsh language. And I again, I've just
Speaker 2: we've talked about it before on here, but like I
Speaker 2: know someone that's dealing with that parent, you know, just
Speaker 2: that toxic you know, talking bad about the other parent
Speaker 2: to the kid, and the kid just has so much
Speaker 2: anxiety and it's just like filled with it, and it's
Speaker 2: like oh God, and you know this person's calling and
Speaker 2: like you know, it's like, oh I hate that because
Speaker 2: I'm like I don't want anyone to feel that anxiety
Speaker 2: or have the other parent. And my mom when my
Speaker 2: parents got divorced. My mom was like, this is my
Speaker 2: relationship with you. Your dad has to make your own his
Speaker 2: own relationship with you. And so my dad would, you know,
Speaker 2: call and be like, well, tell the kids they need
Speaker 2: to see me. And she's like, I don't need to
Speaker 2: tell the kids. If they want to see you, they're
Speaker 2: going to come see you. And I was at the
Speaker 2: age where I knew of things going on, so I'm like,
Speaker 2: I didn't want to see him, and that was my choice,
Speaker 2: and that was his relationship to mend, not hers. She's like,
Speaker 2: I didn't cause this. I don't have to mend y'all's relationship.
Speaker 2: It is yours to mend. And that's something that I
Speaker 2: always remembered, like even now in this situation where I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously you know I have Disney told the story to
Speaker 2: my kids, like why we weren't together.
Speaker 3: I'm like, well, we're just better off as friends, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so that's my like Disney PG.
Speaker 2: But you know, one day when she asked and wants
Speaker 2: out the conversation and age appropriate, I'll be like, you know, what,
Speaker 2: what do you you know? And there again, there's certain
Speaker 2: things I will not tell them just because I don't
Speaker 2: ever want them to have that version of their dad,
Speaker 2: because I think by that time, hopefully they'll they'll they
Speaker 2: won't even need to ask because they'll have the version
Speaker 2: that they know for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just such a good point because it's it's
Speaker 1: such a happy medium because you know, my parents to
Speaker 1: do my dad didn't do that, but I would have
Speaker 1: loved to have been affirmed with I know that your
Speaker 1: you know your father is incapable. You know. So it's
Speaker 1: just it's just so fascinating to me because I think
Speaker 1: it's just really important for people to hear, you know,
Speaker 1: both versions of how you should act on both sides
Speaker 1: of it as a parent, and how to be honest
Speaker 1: but not bash like that's that's got to be a
Speaker 1: really hard I don't envy all for that because that's
Speaker 1: got to be very hard but so important.
Speaker 2: Well, and it's interesting too when you go back to
Speaker 2: what you said about when you're on the phone and
Speaker 2: I do the same thing. I'm like, Okay, when I'm
Speaker 2: talking to him, it's like, I have to stay in
Speaker 2: my you are the father of my children, you are
Speaker 2: not max husband. But it's hard because something came up
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago where we both just got
Speaker 2: activated with our past stuff and I'm like, I don't
Speaker 2: care how many years removed we are, these triggers are
Speaker 2: still there and they still affect me the same way,
Speaker 2: no matter how much therapy or whatever. And we both
Speaker 2: were just like and we had to were like, all right,
Speaker 2: we're in our old marriage and we need to hang
Speaker 2: up because this is so not healthy.
Speaker 3: Yes, but it's hard to do.
Speaker 2: It's very hard, yes, But yeah, when you can look
Speaker 2: at it, just like, as you know, the father, I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: you're not bad. But then I'm like, ooh when I
Speaker 2: think of you. But then sometimes when I think about that,
Speaker 2: I'm like, wait a minute, I can't trust you, don't
Speaker 2: let you in.
Speaker 3: So it's like a weird yeah line.
Speaker 1: Well, and keeping that in mind as your kids get
Speaker 1: older and they have relationships with them, and if things
Speaker 1: come up where they feel like they're not I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that will happen, but if things come up or
Speaker 1: they feel like he's not being honest with them or whatever,
Speaker 1: and then how you handle that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wouldn't be like, well, welcome to my life.
Speaker 2: I'd be like, well, you know, that's what I think
Speaker 2: that's what. That's what I wouldn't have said, well, welcome
Speaker 2: to the seven years of my life.
Speaker 3: Good.
Speaker 2: No, I would obviously be like, you know, sometimes it's
Speaker 2: maybe hard for people because of their own past. Yes,
Speaker 2: you know for sure, when did you actually start writing
Speaker 2: better than okay?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I started writing it last year in twenty twenty two,
Speaker 4: the beginning of the year, and then wrapped it up
Speaker 4: in July twenty twenty two, so you know, it went
Speaker 4: to the publisher then and went through lunch of rounds
Speaker 4: of edits, as you know, and came out this July.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: And I know a lot can change to you know,
Speaker 2: even in a year. So is there something that you
Speaker 2: wish you would have added or something that like you
Speaker 2: kind of know now that it's not in the book?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do think there are some places I wish
Speaker 4: I might have expanded a little bit more. I think
Speaker 4: I think I would have maybe, And maybe it's the
Speaker 4: next book, Danna, I don't know, just talk about how
Speaker 4: to settle in and really get to know yourself again.
Speaker 4: That is definitely identity as a big part of the book.
Speaker 4: But I just think so many women struggle with that,
Speaker 4: even if it's not divorce, it's you know, they're taking
Speaker 4: care of kids, or you know they have jobs, and
Speaker 4: their identity is wrapped up in what they do rather
Speaker 4: than who they are. Maybe digging into that a little
Speaker 4: bit more. I feel like, you know, I've only had
Speaker 4: one like serious relationship in the last six and a
Speaker 4: half years, and I'm single again. So it's just almost
Speaker 4: like navigating a second breakup post divorce. Navigating a breakup
Speaker 4: is different than what it was when I know my
Speaker 4: divorce happened. So I think just like figuring out and
Speaker 4: being solid in who you are and what you want
Speaker 4: out of your life and taking steps to move toward that,
Speaker 4: I would probably expand on a little bit more.
Speaker 3: That makes sense.
Speaker 2: So, I mean, obviously I knew about your relationship because
Speaker 2: we we've you know, we we do. We touch base, yes,
Speaker 2: and my heart, I was so upset when you when
Speaker 2: you said it, you know, you guys broke up. But
Speaker 2: I also I'm still so excited for you because I
Speaker 2: know that you know your your great love is out
Speaker 2: there and you know you've done all this work, and
Speaker 2: do you believe that or did you kind of get
Speaker 2: to the place where you're like you feel defeated again.
Speaker 4: I think initially I felt defeated again. I think, you know,
Speaker 4: it's life is just such a journey of learning, and
Speaker 4: I had a lot of sadness in regards to that breakup,
Speaker 4: and it took me a little while to accept that
Speaker 4: sadness of like, yeah, I'm sad I don't have that
Speaker 4: partner that I wanted, and to be honest, I'm ready
Speaker 4: for that relationship. I'm ready, you know, to have someone
Speaker 4: who I partner with in life and I share life with. So, yeah,
Speaker 4: that was definitely hard, and there's a lot of sadness
Speaker 4: to dig through. I think I didn't expect to be.
Speaker 4: My therapist said to me, when you go through grief,
Speaker 4: it's like you're swimming in a pool of all of
Speaker 4: your grief rather than just the grief attached to that situation.
Speaker 4: So navigating that and finding maybe the parameters of am
Speaker 4: I grieving this person? Am I grieving the fact that
Speaker 4: I'm single again? And just being able to identify that
Speaker 4: was huge. I think one of the approaches I've realized
Speaker 4: is I've spent the summer kind of just evaluating and
Speaker 4: journaling and processing, is that, you know, there is a
Speaker 4: longing in my heart to be connected with someone in
Speaker 4: a romantic way again, to be in a permanent relationship.
Speaker 4: And I believe the way I'm wired, God created me
Speaker 4: to desire connection. He created all of us for connection,
Speaker 4: and I'm highly relational, and yeah, I think that's a
Speaker 4: long end he placed in my heart. I think it's
Speaker 4: something that he wants for me as well. And the
Speaker 4: timing I get a little impatient on, but yeah, I
Speaker 4: do believe that that will be part of my story,
Speaker 4: is having someone that I share life with again. And
Speaker 4: I think for me, I want that for me. And
Speaker 4: then you know, a benefit of that would be my
Speaker 4: kids getting to see a healthy relationship modeled for them.
Speaker 4: So I would love for my kids to have that
Speaker 4: reality that they get to experience as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I can imagine it's you know, when the
Speaker 2: other partner moves on and starts a family, you know,
Speaker 2: it's like it's you got to have almost like whiplash. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know what my ex is thinking,
Speaker 2: but I'm like, again, he didn't want to be in
Speaker 2: our marriage, so yeah, I don't think they But I
Speaker 2: think if I wanted to be in the marriage and
Speaker 2: he was.
Speaker 3: I just I think I would my head would just
Speaker 3: be spinning.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, Jana, I will say this, by
Speaker 4: the time I filed for divorce, I did not want
Speaker 4: to be in that marriage.
Speaker 2: Well, because it's something you said in the book too,
Speaker 2: and I just want to go back to that because
Speaker 2: I was like, man, that is you know, that's a
Speaker 2: big saying. Is you said you've never missed him, but
Speaker 2: you just felt lonely. And I'm like, is that like,
Speaker 2: not one moment did you miss like even the idea
Speaker 2: of it or the like.
Speaker 4: Not even having a partner. I think I missed you know,
Speaker 4: I've missed it probably the most. In parenting I talk
Speaker 4: in the Loneliness chapter of one of the places I
Speaker 4: still experienced loneliness is when one of our kids does
Speaker 4: something major and I just don't have that person to
Speaker 4: look at and say, like, man, he's a really great
Speaker 4: kid and I'm so proud of him. I don't have
Speaker 4: that shared experience with someone. Now. I have friends who
Speaker 4: show up and family members who show up, and my
Speaker 4: in laws are still part of my life. I call
Speaker 4: them my outlaws. There's still but I just don't, you know,
Speaker 4: have that person to be able to say, like, man,
Speaker 4: he's a really great kid, and I do still feel
Speaker 4: loneliness there, but as far by the time I got
Speaker 4: to filing for divorce, so much had been uncovered over
Speaker 4: my twenty years of marriage that no, I did not
Speaker 4: want that relationship anymore. I think at that point I had,
Speaker 4: you know, he had been out of my bedroom for
Speaker 4: a year, he'd been out of the house for six months.
Speaker 4: I realized in a lot of ways it was easier
Speaker 4: with him gone. I function, he traveled a lot with
Speaker 4: work anyway, and the kids and I kind of had
Speaker 4: our own rhythm. And and when I removed the person
Speaker 4: who caused me to walk on neckshelves and always you know,
Speaker 4: doubt myself and really, you know, was harmful for my
Speaker 4: self confidence. When that person was removed from my home,
Speaker 4: I felt so much relief that I was really as
Speaker 4: devastated as I was. And I definitely grieved the loss
Speaker 4: of the dreams I had for my family unit. And
Speaker 4: then I grieved the loss of the dreams that I
Speaker 4: have for myself in a marriage with him. But I
Speaker 4: didn't miss him right, So I felt like God really
Speaker 4: healed my heart quickly in relationship shift to him. I
Speaker 4: grieved the loss of being part of the church for
Speaker 4: a really long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was wondering how your relationship with God changed
Speaker 2: after that. I mean, you know, being married to the
Speaker 2: you know, main pastor, and and yeah, it's like, were
Speaker 2: you kind of like God would It's you know, did
Speaker 2: you not go to church for a while?
Speaker 3: Were you angry? Like were you angry at him like.
Speaker 4: That? I totally was. I was angry at him. I
Speaker 4: was frustrated. I had watched him, you know, restore a
Speaker 4: ton of marriages, just because we were in ministry and
Speaker 4: we had a front row seat to watching the way
Speaker 4: God worked in people's lives. I had friends whose marriages
Speaker 4: have been restored from you know, similar situations. So yeah,
Speaker 4: I just really believed that God was going to show
Speaker 4: up and heal our marriage and heal both of us.
Speaker 4: I think in the process of that, what I realized
Speaker 4: is that God wanted to heal me so how and
Speaker 4: God wanted to restore me, and redemption was found. It
Speaker 4: was found in the way that I chose to live
Speaker 4: my life as post divorce. But yeah, I showed up
Speaker 4: to God with all of that frustration and anger and
Speaker 4: bitterness and like, what are you talking about. I have
Speaker 4: spent twenty years serving you. My entire adult life has
Speaker 4: been you know, forwarding the mission of your church, and
Speaker 4: this is going to be what I get in return,
Speaker 4: and asking the white questions and fighting about that this
Speaker 4: isn't fair and all of that kind of stuff. I think,
Speaker 4: you know, for me, it was really interesting what I
Speaker 4: realized was in parenting we talk a lot about attachment
Speaker 4: and how attachment then moves into your relationship, whether you
Speaker 4: have secure attachment or anxious attachment, avoidant attachment. And I
Speaker 4: think walking through that divorce, when my life went from
Speaker 4: being surrounded by thousands of people all the time and
Speaker 4: it shrunk too. I had three people in my therapist
Speaker 4: I talked to on a regular basis. I spent a
Speaker 4: lot of time talking to God and yelling at God
Speaker 4: and questioning God. And it allowed me to create a
Speaker 4: secure attachment in my relationship with God in a way
Speaker 4: that I didn't expect because He stayed through all of
Speaker 4: the you know, cussing and yelling and crying and screaming
Speaker 4: and questioning and anger and continue to show up and
Speaker 4: remind me that he loved me and he was going
Speaker 4: to take care of me. And that wasn't easy to
Speaker 4: you know, have to show up that way, but I
Speaker 4: didn't have anyone else that I could yell and scream at.
Speaker 4: I felt like I didn't have anyone else I could
Speaker 4: yell and scream at because I really kind of isolated
Speaker 4: myself out of shame of the situation that was happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's something you said.
Speaker 3: Earlier.
Speaker 2: He had said, like, you know, I never really loved
Speaker 2: you anyways, And there was actually a moment in my
Speaker 2: book I wrote about that where he said, you know,
Speaker 2: I never really loved you, and I kind of know,
Speaker 2: I know my take on why I think they say that,
Speaker 2: But how did you kind of rest with that knowing
Speaker 2: that's not the truth. It's just I look at it
Speaker 2: as yeahs like it's he didn't maybe love himself or yep, yeah, because.
Speaker 3: For a while I was like, we didn't love me,
Speaker 3: like that's all a lie.
Speaker 1: Well it's hard, but.
Speaker 2: It's heart faults here though. I know a lot of
Speaker 2: women have probably heard that. So that's why I'm like,
Speaker 2: what is your you know, take on it.
Speaker 4: It's so interesting. I was working with a coaching client
Speaker 4: yesterday and she said, I don't understand he rewrote our
Speaker 4: entire history, and yeah, that's what ends up happening. And
Speaker 4: my is they do it to relieve some of the
Speaker 4: guilt that they're feeling with the decisions and the choices
Speaker 4: they're making. They're trying to rewrite history. They're trying to
Speaker 4: take away some of the pain that they're feeling because
Speaker 4: they realize that they're causing other people pain, so they
Speaker 4: rewrite that narrative and create their own in order to
Speaker 4: justify those choices and decisions that are causing pain. What's
Speaker 4: your take on it, Danet, tell me.
Speaker 2: I mean that's yeah, that's one should be your take.
Speaker 3: Yeah, everyone's take out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't want to carry that shame and the sadness,
Speaker 2: and you know, so they just want to keep on hurting.
Speaker 2: And yeah, rewriting. I always looked at it as like
Speaker 2: a mirror, Well you don't love yourself. Yeah you're going
Speaker 2: to say probably some truth to that, yeah too, so
Speaker 2: we can mold But I like.
Speaker 1: That, And they might just be trying to hurt you
Speaker 1: in the moment as well.
Speaker 2: But I think at the end of the day, though,
Speaker 2: like in the you know, the I think this your
Speaker 2: son was saying, he goes he was sending you text
Speaker 2: messages and you said the text that sit out the
Speaker 2: most was one that said, I agree, I wouldn't change
Speaker 2: our lives for anything, and that made me get teary
Speaker 2: because I'm like, you've done so much for your kids
Speaker 2: and this isn't the life that you wanted, but you've
Speaker 2: created a safe place for them, and I just think
Speaker 2: that's beautiful.
Speaker 4: Thank you. Yeah, that was a super special moment. I
Speaker 4: was speaking, and in the course of my message, I
Speaker 4: was talking about how this is not the story I
Speaker 4: wanted for myself, it's not the story I wanted for
Speaker 4: my kids, but at this point, I wouldn't change our
Speaker 4: lives for anything. We have created this really great family
Speaker 4: unit where nothing is missing, and I was just expounding
Speaker 4: on that. And when I went to the Green Gream
Speaker 4: after there was a series of texts and it was
Speaker 4: really sweet. He was like, oh, I like, you're outfitting.
Speaker 4: That joke was funny. The audience laughed. But then he
Speaker 4: got to that point where he said I could agree more.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't change our lives for anything, and that was
Speaker 4: the point that I was like, Okay, we have redefined
Speaker 4: family and redefined our family unit to where yeah, there's
Speaker 4: nothing missing. The four of us are a complete family,
Speaker 4: and we show up for one another and we love
Speaker 4: each other really well.
Speaker 3: I love that, Brandy.
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm I'm so happy for you, and I'm
Speaker 2: you know, I want everyone to go get your book
Speaker 2: better than okay, finding hope and healing after your marriage ends.
Speaker 2: And then what else are you? So you said you're
Speaker 2: coaching people. That's what You've been doing for that for
Speaker 2: a long time.
Speaker 4: I've been doing that for a long time. That's my sake.
Speaker 3: So where can our listeners find you?
Speaker 2: Then?
Speaker 4: Love Brandy Wilson dot com Brandy with an I, and
Speaker 4: then that's my website and then on Instagram. I love
Speaker 4: Brandy Wilson as well. So well, thank you for coming on,
Speaker 4: thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: I miss you and let's get together soon please once
Speaker 2: once school starts back up.
Speaker 3: Yah. Yeah, Sarah wants to see you too, Sarah Brice
Speaker 3: says Chris. Everybody loves everybody.
Speaker 2: But yeah, let's I'll text you on the side and
Speaker 2: we'll we'll figure something that.
Speaker 4: It's great, Tokay, thank you so much for her too
Speaker 4: amazing book.
Speaker 2: Seriously, it's so good. It's just I feel everything that
Speaker 2: you write. It's just honest and it feels to me.
Speaker 2: It's like, I know you wrote this. You know it
Speaker 2: comes from your voice, which I love.
Speaker 4: So I love that.
Speaker 3: All right, bye Brandy.
Speaker 1: Brandy, She's such a beautiful human.
Speaker 2: I'm so happy for her. I was I gotta tell
Speaker 2: you that. When she sent me the text with her
Speaker 2: and now boyfriend broke up, I was like no, because
Speaker 2: I just was like they're dated for us, definitely over
Speaker 2: a year.
Speaker 1: And like how soon ago did they break up?
Speaker 3: Like a couple of months ago?
Speaker 2: I know, but again it's not like it's all I
Speaker 2: was also like, but yay, because you're gonna find and
Speaker 2: you know, and she's happy, Like she's happier.
Speaker 1: And she knows what she wants. You know, she knows.
Speaker 2: I know it's not all about relationships, but you know
Speaker 2: when someone's like ready and wants that, like that's where
Speaker 2: it's right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's what she was saying. She is ready,
Speaker 1: like she is ready for that companion. Maybe she should
Speaker 1: go on the No, I don't know what you're going
Speaker 1: to say, but probably not.
Speaker 3: I was like thinking like an app or something we
Speaker 3: can you know.
Speaker 1: That could be a fun girls nice Iran.
Speaker 2: Let's just like let's get her on hinge or something.
Speaker 2: Or just start like, oh, you know we should do
Speaker 2: because you know I'm met my love on Instagram. We
Speaker 2: should just sliden, do I know. I'm like I'm trying
Speaker 2: to think. I'm like, what, what person can we hook
Speaker 2: her up with?
Speaker 1: But that'll be our homework. We'll think about that anyways.
Speaker 3: See you light up? Are you