WEBVTT - Whine About It: Be Better than Okay 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:05.359 Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast. 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:12.200 Okay, so this week's Therapy Thursday, Whine about It, we 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.720 have a very special guest that actually both Catherine and 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:21.759 I know. I'm how do I say this, I'm almost 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:24.720 having like a hard time tiptoeing around certain things because 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:27.360 there's certain things that I had to edit out of 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:31.320 maybe something. 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:31.880 That I was working on. 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:36.720 So long story short, the woman that's about to come 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.239 on has been someone in both of our lives for 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:39.760 a while. 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:44.320 I go ahead, I don't know her that well. I 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.040 do not know her that well. No, I know more 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:50.760 of her, so you know her better than I. But yes, 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.400 I have known of her and her story for a while. 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:58.720 Yeah, and she's we really connected because we were going 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:02.200 through the same thing the same time seven years ago. 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:04.760 So she has a book out, well, first of her 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.880 name's Brandy Wilson, and she's she's incredible. But she's got 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:11.759 a book out called Better Than Okay, and I'm halfway 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:13.880 through it. But it's finding hope and healing after your 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:15.640 marriage ends. I even did like a little thing for 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.080 her on her book just to because it's I just 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:20.400 I love I love. 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:22.240 Well. 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:23.760 First of all, I just I love how she writes too. 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:25.280 It's just very real. You feel like you're in it. 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.880 So let's get her on. Welcome to the show. 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:28.560 Brandy Wilson. 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:30.640 Hey, y'all. 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:33.680 Hi Katherine. 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:35.319 I'm wondering if I get to see you. 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.039 Yes, I'm usually not on these, and I was like, 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.039 I want to be there when Brandy is on. So 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:41.800 I'm here today. 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:42.080 Yeah. 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:44.480 She had a she had a direct, you know, and 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:46.600 I remember that you had mentioned it to me and 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:48.240 I was like, all right, Kat, this is my episode 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:48.680 with Brandy. 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:49.440 She's like, I'm there. 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:51.720 Yep, I'm here. Yeah, so excited. 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.080 That makes me happy. Jana, how are you feeling? 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:56.600 Yeah, I'm feeling all right. 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.480 I just got off a flight early morning, you know, 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.800 four am lobby call, so that was fun. But yeah, no, 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.480 I'm feeling you know, I'm feeling good, feeling feeling pregnant, 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:11.320 feeling feeling the uh you know, every week it's like, oh, 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:13.080 this hurts a little bit more. 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:15.760 This is this is harder. But no, it's great. 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:18.520 I'm super grateful and I'm just I'm so proud of 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:22.400 you and you know your book is is out better 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:27.680 than okay, And first of all, can we I like 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:29.440 I was saying in the beginning of the show, I'm like, 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:32.720 I feel like I need to maybe tiptoe around certain things. 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:35.480 And you know, I've read now I'm halfway through your book, 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:40.440 and the things that you share are you don't you 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:42.520 don't give it all, right, right? 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.720 But also if people google, they would. 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.360 Know who you're talking about for sure, Yes, right, yes, 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:55.000 so okay, so you start with what you want to 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:59.760 share for the listeners that have that don't know your story. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:00.640 Yeah, so. 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:06.560 You're correct. I did go through a legal edit before 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:09.640 the book went to final print, just in order to 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:13.400 make sure I was protecting myself. I think I worked 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:16.240 really hard for it to be my personal story of 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:20.920 how God chose to begin in me, or how God 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.840 chose to begin a new work in me as I 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:28.040 chose to begin again, and to make the story about 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:29.760 what He had done in my life rather than what 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.040 had happened to me. I think, you know, I also 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.680 have children, so I'm not going to air out dirty 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:41.280 laundry in a book about their dad. I wanted to 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:43.560 be able to show the strength of how you get 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:48.680 through really hard things and continue to keep going. So, yeah, 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.800 my story started when I was eighteen and met a 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.520 guy at college who I ended up dating for three 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:59.280 years and then was married at that point. So married 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.880 around twenty one t twenty two, and we were in ministry. 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.440 He was pastoring a church. We started a church in 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:08.960 Kentucky and we stayed there for five or six years 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.600 before moving to Nashville and starting a church here in Nashville. 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:17.240 Cross Point Church, which you know, I really loved being 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.760 part of. Cross Point, still exists today. It's still thriving. 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.680 In fact, you attend Jana, that's still your church. I 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:28.040 was there for your baptism last year. But we were 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.680 in leadership at cross Point for fourteen years, and I 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:33.000 really loved my life in ministry. I loved being the 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:37.400 pastor's wife, engaging with the staff, spending you know, tuesdays 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.800 at the office doing staff meeting with them, having lunch together, 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:44.560 having them to my home, just really doing life with 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:48.479 that group of people who had chosen to be part 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:53.040 of the staff community at cross Point. And in twenty sixteen, 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.680 my husband at the time chose to step away from 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.600 the church and the ministry we had started there, and 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.640 from our marriage as well as our family and my 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:07.280 life fell apart overnight. And we all three know that 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:10.039 when your life publicly falls apart, it's been falling apart 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.599 behind the scenes for a really long time. But I 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:16.960 still did not expect the whiplash of everything changing as 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.680 quickly as it did. So I found myself a single 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.440 mom at forty two, kind of starting all over and 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.320 putting the pieces of my life back together. And I 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.560 realized pretty quickly that the beauty in all of it 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.040 was that this time I got to put the pieces 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.440 of my life back together the way I chose. So 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:40.599 I wanted to make sure that I was creating the 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:43.840 life that I loved living, and creating a healthy life 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:45.920 for my boys and ies. We move forward. 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.400 In the book, you had said the narrative being repeated 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.800 was about an overworked pastor who has burned out. The 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.960 reality was I'd been sleeping alone, not by my own choice, 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.359 for more than six months. In my heart, I was 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.880 sure my suspicions were correct. The brokenness went much deeper. 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:04.520 Trust had once again been broken, and I was experiencing 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:08.320 devastating heartbreak. And so I feel like you give enough 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.880 to let people know the pain that you were in, 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.080 and I really like I respect that because I think 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.279 there was a I would could imagine having that narrative 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:22.800 and being like, did you just want to like scream 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:24.680 it from the rooftops or like this is this is 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:28.040 what happened, and like this is how like hurt I am. 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:30.880 Yes, yeah, of course I wanted to discream it from 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.599 the rooftops. I think the way it all unfolded, and 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:38.440 you both remember, it's just like pieces of information. We're 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:43.200 floated here and there, you know, being able to really 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:45.839 dig in and find the truth of what was going 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.720 on to forever or it felt like forever, but definitely 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.080 a few months for things to unfold. And even in 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.679 that there was still deception and manipulation, and there was hiding. 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:00.320 So I think I just I had been in that 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:04.039 scenario quite a few times in my marriage where trust 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:07.600 had been broken. There had been a third party who 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:09.960 was part of my marriage that had happened a ton 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.040 a few times I was aware of. I realized at 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.240 the end there were quite a few times, quite a 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.960 few people I wasn't aware of and didn't know until 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.320 the end. I will say, when I was aware of it, 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:24.320 we did what we were quote unquote supposed to do 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.640 and did counseling and you know, kind of tried to 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:32.200 work through the problems in the relationship. But when only 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:36.040 one person wants to fix a marriage, that's not enough. 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:38.560 So I was there willing to try to fix it, 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.400 put the pieces of our life back together, tried to 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:43.640 really be able to get to a point where there 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:48.360 was a healthier dynamic. But we have to have two 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:51.160 parties who want to do that, two parties each person, 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:53.240 the husband and the wife, have to show up being 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:55.320 willing to do the work together. And I was the 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.000 only one willing to do that work. So at that point, 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:04.200 I moved forward with the divorce. And honestly, you know, 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:06.560 never expected divorce to be part of my story. I 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.679 don't think anyone does. I mean, you guys are both married. 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.120 No one walks the aisle on their wedding day and 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:14.880 things like, oh, I'm going to give it a good 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.360 ten years, or you know, when they're opening their wedding gifts, 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:20.400 think I'm going to keep this in the divorce and 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.480 give him that. Or you know, the worst part you 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.040 know this, Janna, is you don't hold your baby in 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.640 the hospital and think I can't wait to spend even 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:32.320 number of Christmases with you. It is just not a 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.240 reality that anyone foresees in their marriage. 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:38.839 I want to not pivot, but pivot a little bit. 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:40.960 I would love to talk a little bit about your 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:45.360 boys and how I just I'm so fascinated by y'all 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:49.400 story in general, but just I have so many questions. 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:51.560 But just when you decided you wanted to write a book, 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.480 when you were you know, you were prompted for that. 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:59.320 Were you nervous to tell the boys? Were you you know, 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:01.560 how did that go down? Or are they worried about it? 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:03.720 Like I just can imagine that was probably a little scary. 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:04.160 Yeah. 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.560 And one of your chapters too is I googled Dad, 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:08.079 and I was like, I got to read this because 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:11.480 that's going to be something too where I'm like, they're 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.760 they're going to google our story one day. And you know, 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.200 I have left personally a lot of stuff out of 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.520 my book to protect my children, but there are also 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:24.040 some things that you know, they're obviously going to hear 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.440 or see that you know has been public from both 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.960 of us, and so I think, you know, obviously they 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:34.080 saw the headlines your boys they googled at their school, 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:35.920 I think is what you said in the in the book. 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:37.440 But then yeah. 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.320 I mean Tikat's question, it's like, did you then say like, hey, guys, 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:42.960 I'm writing a book, how do you feel about this? 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:48.560 Or yeah, you know we are like we have a 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:50.880 great little family unit, the four of us, I call 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:54.320 us us four. And one of the things I did 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:56.960 when we moved into this I sold the house that 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.560 I'd lived in when I was married, bought a new house, 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.520 new to house, And one of the things I was 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:05.480 super adamant about is like, what do I want the 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:07.680 values of our family to be? And the first one 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.559 was honesty, Like this is a house of truth. So 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.080 I allowed my kids to come to me with anything, 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.200 and I'm super honest with them as well. And you know, 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.400 we had to figure that out. But we had all 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:22.840 four of us lived under so much deception and so 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.320 many lies that I just was very clear, this is 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:28.440 not the life we live anymore and this home will 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:33.160 not function that way. So a lot of questions had 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:36.960 been asked before I of my kids and about the 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.440 reality of the situation before I got to the point 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:43.000 of writing the book. My oldest son has heard me 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.880 speak a few times. My other boys, you know, they 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.560 see what I post on Instagram, so they kind of 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:52.120 know that I'm not going to write a tell all 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:56.000 about our life. I feel like I have modeled how 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.360 to deal with the hurt and the pain that I've 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:03.680 experienced and also choose to live a life where I 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:07.480 am healing and moving forward. So I think because they 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.160 have seen that in the life I live, it didn't 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.400 necessarily scare them. I also didn't write anything that they 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:18.000 didn't know. Now, they might not have known some of 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.760 the details of you know, maybe how I bought the house, 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.120 or the details of that weekend in Vegas where my 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.640 husband told me he never ever loved me. They might 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.320 not have known those details. But as far as the 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:34.480 stuff about trust being broken, and my kids are aware 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:38.560 of that. They actually when my divorce happened, they knew 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.200 a lot of information that they filled me on that 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:43.720 I was still trying to put the pieces of life 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:47.640 back together. So I was really clear when I told 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:49.800 them I was writing a book, like, if you have 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.760 any questions, I'll answer them. My oldest son has read it. 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:56.760 He loved it, super complimentary, told me he was going 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:59.160 to take some of my tips from the dating chapter 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:04.600 O life, which was interesting. My other two have kind 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:09.199 of skimmed it, flipped through it, you know, haven't finished 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:11.880 it fully, but have both said like, yeah, we think 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.960 it's great, and any questions we have will ask you 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.480 when we finish reading. So I've just left that door 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:19.800 open for them to be able to ask any questions. 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.200 You know, the I Google Dad thing, I think there 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:25.600 were a couple. I think when my oldest son, for instance, 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.480 was reading that and he saw I Google Dad, he has, 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.200 you know, heart stopped for a second and he was like, 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.000 she's going to go there. And then the chapter is 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.200 really about telling your kids age appropriate truth, so it's 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:41.080 not necessarily about what was found when he googled, but 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.520 it was about the weight he carried because that's the 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.440 reality of his life. And then the conversation he and 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:50.520 I had following his admission that he had googled his dad. 0:12:50.920 --> 0:13:05.320 Right in the beginning of the book too. 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.320 I love that you you start off by saying, you know, 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:12.000 it's obviously the book that you never wanted to write 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:14.400 or to have, and then same for the people that 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.160 you know pick it up. But you go to first 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:18.480 to the first thing I want you to hear is 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.400 I'm sorry. I'm sorry for your heartache. I'm sorry for 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:22.480 your shattered dreams. I'm sorry you're putting the pieces of 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.120 your life back together. And I remember talking to Lisa 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:29.720 Turkers about that. You know, just women in our situation normally, 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:31.600 or in a lot of you know, hurts full situations, 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.400 you don't really get the apology you ever want or 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.719 deserve or and so you know we had, we had 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.680 I believe discussed that too. And I'm curious, how many 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.400 years has it been now since your divorce? Six and 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:46.000 a half six and a half years? 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:50.640 Wow, yeah, we were separated a year before, but yeah, 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:51.600 six and a half years. 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:55.680 So I'm curious have you did you ever receive the 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:57.760 sorry that you felt you deserved? 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:04.320 Yeah? No, and I don't think I ever will. And 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:06.160 I'm okay with that. 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.720 Because I definitely know you know the route that I 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:10.760 how I got mine for myself. 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:15.080 But like, how did you? Yeah, how you? How did 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:15.720 you walk through that? 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.120 Yeah? I think forgiveness is a process, and sometimes I 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:24.160 think we jumped to forgiveness too quickly. And then I 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:27.520 also think, you know, Janna, you know this, and sharing kids. 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.160 It's like I have forgiven for a lot of the stuff, 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.280 but there are still issues that pop up that I 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:36.960 have to continually work through the forgiveness process with. So 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.480 for me, a lot of that was my own healing 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:43.400 journey of being able to you know, I remember one 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:45.120 of the things I did. I was actually at on 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:49.040 site doing the Living Centered program and a program Oh 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.240 my gosh, it's excellent. One of the things I did 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:54.160 was I wrote down everything that he had done that 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.560 hurt me, you know, all the way down to like 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:02.200 using my miscarriage as an illustration in a book and 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.440 not telling me until I read it, you know, like 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.080 details of our life that were really hard for me 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.600 to navigate, and I wrote it all down. I had 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.360 a couple of pages. I had a friend there that 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:14.720 I was close to, and I just said, I need 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.640 to read these out loud. So he met me outside 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:20.520 by the fire pit. I went through and I read 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:25.200 every single offense out loud, and then after I tore 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.680 it up and burned it. It just allowed me to 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:32.000 be able to release a lot of that anger and 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.680 frustration and disappointment that I had been carrying, so I 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:39.760 could get to a point of being able to extend 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.520 forgiveness even though I'd never received an apology. 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.240 Did he know that you were writing this book. 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.560 He has referenced it a few times in communication, but 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.720 not specific so you didn't you didn't. 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:55.360 Tell him like before, like, hey, I have a book 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:58.720 coming out. Okay, No, I've always wondered like how to 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.760 how certain people approach it because I when I was 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.840 talking to my legal my legal team at HarperCollins, I 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:08.400 was like, you know, legally does he get or read 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.160 or like cause it yeah, they go through legal passes 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.280 and everything, and you know, for me, I was like 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:18.120 I I I ended up just going I just want 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:19.760 you to know I do have a book coming out. 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:22.760 And what I said to him, I was like, it's 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:26.120 not about you, like, it's truly about my journey. Yes, 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.000 my our stories are in there kind of like what 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:31.600 you've put in here, like your stories, but it's about 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:33.720 your growth and your healing. And that's what I was, 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:35.880 you know, trying to convey. But I think you know, 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:39.760 it's it's just it's tough because I'm like, do you 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.480 want to read it like beforehand or I'm like nothing, 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:44.600 I'm not going to change anything, you know. I'm like, 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:47.040 it's it was like, trust me, I've left a lot out, 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:49.360 you know. I'm like because it's. 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:50.640 Really not about. 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.600 You can later exactly, but it's like it's protection for 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:57.960 the kids, you know, and that's you know, so that's 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.840 I get why you left certain things out. Yeah, but 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.320 you know, yeah, the sorry piece, I was just curious 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:06.320 if he end up coming back. 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.560 But that tracks well, here's my question with that, And 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.639 I keep taking it kind of back to the kids, 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.320 and a lot of it I think is because my 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:19.080 parents got divorced when I was older and I didn't 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:24.439 know anything, and so I went through, you know, my 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:26.679 mom was kind of the one that left the house, 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:28.639 that was the one that I'm leaving. So I just 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.879 went through this assumption that she did X, Y and Z, 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.080 and We're not going to have a relationship. I want 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:39.000 nothing to do with her. How do you handle that 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.440 with the boy? Like how is their relationship with their 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.879 father with knowing what they know, and like, how do 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.040 how do you help handle that situation? 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:49.560 Yeah? 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.160 I honestly stay out of their relationship with their dad 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:55.920 unless they come to me with something. My kids at 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.720 this point are twenty two, nineteen and seventeen, so to 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.800 going to college, high school, and it got a lot 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.080 easier when they could drive themselves on the weekends that 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.960 they go there. You know, I have the kids the 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.600 majority of the time. It's like a seventy thirty split, 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.240 so they're with me the majority of the time. So 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:17.199 I really am the one who steps in and I 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.920 do all the doctor's appointments and the parenting, you know stuff. 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.359 But as far as their relationship, if they want to 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.479 come to me to talk about something, I am open 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.159 to allowing them to be a play, allowing myself to 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:34.840 be a place that they convent. And one of the 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.240 things I try to do, Catherine is definitely affirm what 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.399 they're feeling so that they learn to trust their gut. 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.320 I think one of the things that kept me so 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:49.440 locked into the marriage and the dysfunction and the unhealth 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.080 of that marriage is I was married to someone who 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:54.359 was a pastor of a super successful church, one of 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:58.080 the fastest growing churches in the nation. And everyone in 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:00.919 my life told me how amazing he was. Everyone was 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.800 telling me how awesome, you know, his messages were, how 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.600 they changed their life, all of that kind of stuff. 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:11.760 The staff loved working with him, So I almost adopted 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.359 this mentality of I guess I'm the problem if the 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.840 person that I see on stage and the person in 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.520 my home are not the same person then, and everyone's 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.639 telling me he's amazing that. I guess I'm the problem 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.360 because when I had those intuitions, no one was affirming 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.320 those for me. So therefore I felt like I couldn't 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:33.639 trust myself. I couldn't trust my gut. I couldn't trust, 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:38.720 you know, my women's intuition because it went against everything 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.280 that everyone else was telling me. So when my kids 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.119 come to me and they want to have a discussion, 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:48.080 I end up having that discussion with them, and I 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:51.399 affirm the truth of the situation. I affirm the reality 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:56.080 I'm not gonna talk terribly about their dad because I 0:19:56.119 --> 0:20:00.119 know that's not healthy for them. I'm also, you know, 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.359 I try. When I'm communicating with him, I separate, like 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:05.600 am I responding to my kid's father or am I 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:08.240 responding to my ex husband. I can be a lot 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.439 more grace filled and kind when I'm responding to my 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:13.720 kid's father than I can when I'm responding to my 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:17.720 ex husband. So I think when kids come to parents 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:22.080 with questions and they say, you know, something to the 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:26.919 effect of like, it's like he is always lying. I 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:29.120 don't think a mother should ever say back, your dad's 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.600 a liar. She can affirm your dad is incapable of 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.080 telling the truth. So I know that's really hard for 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:38.480 you to be able to have conversation with him. Now, 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:42.159 it's the same reality. It's just saying in a gentle 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:46.960 way and also affirming what they're realizing. The truth of 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:47.919 the situation is. 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:50.600 Yeah, you basically said in the book, Yeah, he was 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:52.440 saying like your dad is a liar, one approach you 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:54.960 could take to affirm their feelings, and then saying your 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:56.800 dad has an inability to tell the truth. So it's 0:20:56.800 --> 0:21:01.720 the same information, different delivery. Firms your child is experiencing, 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:04.359