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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I'm welcome to Steffone

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Speaker 1: never told you a prediction of iHeartRadio. And today we

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Speaker 1: are really lucky because we are once again joined by

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Speaker 1: the fabulous and delightful bridget Todd three times in this month.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing.

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Speaker 3: I know, I love it. I'm like, okay, coming on,

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Speaker 3: how often can we have you on? Let's do more stuff?

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Speaker 4: I also love it, you know, the Hugh Hefner antics

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Speaker 4: never end. Also, can I just say thank you for

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Speaker 4: if folks haven't listened to our Hugh Hefner conversation, I've

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Speaker 4: got a lot out of it, and thank you for Like,

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Speaker 4: I don't know, I feel like it was a meaty

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Speaker 4: one and people should listen to it.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm grateful that we had the space.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. And of course we stretched it out

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Speaker 3: very long.

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Speaker 5: We still left out so many things at the end

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Speaker 5: that we do want to come back with, maybe like

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Speaker 5: a conversation about where Playboy and magazines as that are today,

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Speaker 5: and that will be a later, later conversation.

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Speaker 3: I swear to Goddess later, because there's.

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Speaker 5: So much and it is so deep, and like having

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Speaker 5: going through all of that depth conversation that who was

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Speaker 5: kind of at one point, we're like, this is abruptly ending,

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Speaker 5: and Annie had to fix us because he's like, yo,

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Speaker 5: we can't do it like that because that's too much.

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Speaker 5: But it was so much that there was no like

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Speaker 5: bits of it that was just like, Okay, this is

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Speaker 5: an easy, easy going part.

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Speaker 3: There's no easy going part.

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Speaker 4: No, Yeah, it's so true, and like what a I

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Speaker 4: don't know. I've been listening to a lot of nostalgia

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Speaker 4: podcasts that are like, oh.

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Speaker 2: Remember when this, remember when that?

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Speaker 4: Like you know, you're wrong about things like that, and

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Speaker 4: it's like, what a weird time for the culture, What

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Speaker 4: a weird thing that we all experienced together like it

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Speaker 4: was normal and it really.

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Speaker 5: Was not right though, because we are aging, like slowly aging,

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Speaker 5: y'all slower than Maze fines great, but like looking back

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Speaker 5: on things, a lot of this conversation is because things

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Speaker 5: are revamping and we're seeing in the younger generation doing

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Speaker 5: their thing similar to what we already know and putting

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Speaker 5: their own like style to it. But watching it is

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Speaker 5: kind of like, huh, that's not as original as you think.

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Speaker 5: It's cute and I like your version, but just know

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Speaker 5: that this was there before. But at the same time,

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Speaker 5: I'm like, I wonder how many times the people before

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Speaker 5: us also felt that way. We're just coming into that

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Speaker 5: same like generational glitch of like, yeah, there it is.

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Speaker 5: This is why now I understand that the older generation

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Speaker 5: would just look at us kind of funny and be like,

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Speaker 5: what are you doing? This has been done anyway. I've

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Speaker 5: had those moments lately.

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Speaker 4: I had one watching a group of like very young

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Speaker 4: people wearing the oversized jeans that are so long that

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Speaker 4: that you are stepping on them, and it was like

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Speaker 4: a damp day and I was like, ooh, I remember

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Speaker 4: that feeling of like the Jinko jeans that went over

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Speaker 4: the back that the heels of your sneaker and get

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Speaker 4: wet and gross yuck.

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Speaker 3: You're gonna want the skinny jeans again one day.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like, oh, y'all are back there again. Okay, cool,

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Speaker 4: let's see how that goes.

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Speaker 1: I just have to put in here, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to provide any more context than this, but Jinko

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Speaker 1: jeans are very important in my Dungeons and Dragons campaign

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Speaker 1: follow up or no, no, no.

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Speaker 3: I I think Peaches has something to do with this.

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Speaker 1: Dog Peaches is very much a inspiration in the campaign. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I'll say this as the I run the game, sometimes

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Speaker 1: you got to go with what the players are doing.

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Speaker 1: And we're all from kind of the same generation.

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Speaker 3: Is that millennial level of like.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, anyway, we really appreciate you joining us today, virgin

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Speaker 6: What you the topic you have for us is one

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Speaker 6: that I admit is giving me a lot of thingsniety,

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Speaker 6: But I'm very glad that you're here to talk about

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Speaker 6: it because it's so so important and there's a lot

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Speaker 6: to breakdown, So let's go ahead and get into it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I feel the same anxiety and angst that you're feeling

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Speaker 4: I'm feeling, and that is that we have an upcoming election.

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Speaker 4: I've been doing this thing where I'm saying I'm not

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Speaker 4: going to even pay attention to the election until we're

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Speaker 4: like one hundred days out. Generally for me around then

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Speaker 4: that I'm like, oh o God, I just want a campaign.

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Speaker 4: But I think like I need to confront the fact

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Speaker 4: that we're in an election year, and it's not twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty four.

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Speaker 2: It's not just an election year.

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Speaker 4: It's probably the election year, not just here in the

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Speaker 4: United States, but also globally.

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Speaker 2: I did not know this.

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Speaker 4: Around the world, more voters in history will vote this year,

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Speaker 4: with at least sixty four countries and the European Union

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Speaker 4: having elections combined. This is about forty nine percent of

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Speaker 4: people worldwide are meant to be holding national elections in

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: So it's a very big deal.

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Speaker 4: The stakes are high, or not wrong to be feeling

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Speaker 4: a little anxiety or a little angst or a little

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Speaker 4: uncertainty around it, Annie, But given all that, I think

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Speaker 4: it really makes sense to think about whether or not

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Speaker 4: elections are fair to women who are running for office. Obviously,

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Speaker 4: this is like a global issue, but right here in

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Speaker 4: the United States things are also very bleak.

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Speaker 2: And it's important because we can't have like.

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Speaker 4: An equitable, functional democracy if women are not able to

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Speaker 4: run for office without facing identity motivated attacks simply for

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Speaker 4: showing up and daring to be women.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and you've talked about this a lot before, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's so important because if you're considering running

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Speaker 1: for office as a woman or any intersection of marginalized identity,

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Speaker 1: that's just like an extra thing to deal with, and

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Speaker 1: like your family has to deal with, like people who

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Speaker 1: know you has to deal with, and I can't honestly

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Speaker 1: blame people for being like, you know what, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to deal with that, And that's a huge problem.

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Speaker 1: Is a huge.

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Speaker 4: Problem, absolutely, and even for folks who are not running

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Speaker 4: for elected office, it's a problem because more and more

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Speaker 4: we're seeing it just harassment and identity based attacks being

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Speaker 4: part of showing up to public or civic life. And

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Speaker 4: so if you want to be a poll worker for

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Speaker 4: your elections in your town, or if you want to

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Speaker 4: speak up at a town hall meeting in your town,

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Speaker 4: just these every day, not exciting bits of democracy, these

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Speaker 4: everyday ways that folks should be able to show up

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Speaker 4: and make their voices heard and participate in their civic

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Speaker 4: and public life. Women and people of color and other

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Speaker 4: marginalized people are facing attacks just for doing that. And

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Speaker 4: you know, it makes me sad because I've seen very

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Speaker 4: clear research that suggests that women are shying away from

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Speaker 4: public office and shying away from this kind of civic

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Speaker 4: participation because.

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Speaker 2: Of these attacks. And on the one hand, I get it, like.

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Speaker 4: Women are smart enough to know if I'm not protected

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Speaker 4: and when I do this, if I have to pay

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Speaker 4: lots of lots and lots of money to protect myself

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Speaker 4: in a way that my male counterparts just don't even

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Speaker 4: have to think about. I don't want to do that.

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Speaker 4: And so as much as I want to have the

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Speaker 4: representative democracy that we all deserve, I understand why more

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Speaker 4: and more marginalized people are checking out and being like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'm just not going to sign up for this, Like

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Speaker 4: why would you?

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Speaker 2: I get it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think one of the reasons for my anxiety,

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Speaker 1: A lot of our anxiety, as you said, you have

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Speaker 1: been on here to talk about it being like disinformation

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Speaker 1: in these attacks and misinformation, it feels like it's gotten

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Speaker 1: worse for a lot of reasons. Is that in my.

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Speaker 4: Head or I am sorry to say it is not

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Speaker 4: in your head. You know, today in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 4: women in politics and positions of power are the targets of.

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Speaker 2: Just overwhelming volumes.

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Speaker 4: Of gender disinformation and online abuse in forms of character assassinations,

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Speaker 4: fake stories, and humiliating or sexually charged images. Something that

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Speaker 4: is new is the proliferation of AI enabled disinformation, visual disinformation,

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Speaker 4: so things like cheap fakes, deep stakes, all of that

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Speaker 4: kind of stuff that I think we really hadn't had

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Speaker 4: to wade through before, Like we are now.

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Speaker 2: And I also just think, I mean, this is just

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Speaker 2: my opinion.

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Speaker 4: I think that the cultural landscape around these kinds of

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Speaker 4: attacks have changed.

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Speaker 2: I think that we're in a place where people.

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Speaker 4: Are really willing to believe things that adhere to their

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Speaker 4: worldviews already. And so if you see a piece of

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Speaker 4: disinformation or an AI generated deep fake, even if there

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Speaker 4: are all the things that you're like, that's probably not

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Speaker 4: true if it aligns to your worldview. Anecdotally, I believe

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Speaker 4: that I've seen more and more people being unwilling to

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Speaker 4: challenge things that are clearly not true if it aligns

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Speaker 4: to their worldview. And we're talking about misogyny and sexism,

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Speaker 4: so much of that is wrapped.

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Speaker 2: Up in how people think about the world.

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Speaker 4: And so if you already are somebody who was prone

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Speaker 4: to think that women are untrustworthy or women are incapable,

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Speaker 4: or women are not qualified or not good leaders, when

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Speaker 4: you see something that confirms that, even if it's like

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Speaker 4: obviously AI manipulated or something are not true, I do

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Speaker 4: think here in twenty twenty four, people are going to

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Speaker 4: be willing to be like, oh, yeah, that tracks, you know,

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Speaker 4: because it aligns to this like deeply held idea and

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Speaker 4: attitude about women that they already have, right, you know.

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Speaker 5: One of the things I was thinking about the last

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Speaker 5: time we kind of had a similar conversation about this,

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Speaker 5: we talked a lot about like bots, and we talked

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Speaker 5: a lot about like how Russia really did target specific

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Speaker 5: women and marginalized people, even pretending to be like marginalized

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Speaker 5: people themselves in order to attack other people or be like, yes,

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Speaker 5: I'm definitely voting for so and so because I am

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Speaker 5: this type of person who thinks that this candidate will

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Speaker 5: do the best for us, even though it's not true

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Speaker 5: at all, which you know, we've seen plants essentially everywhere,

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Speaker 5: but then these bots were this thing. Is there something

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Speaker 5: different this time round that we're seeing, Like as as

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Speaker 5: calculated as that was, obviously it's getting worse.

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Speaker 3: What are we seeing now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question.

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Speaker 4: I would say that I was somebody who really talked

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Speaker 4: a lot about the way that global forces were using

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Speaker 4: and exploiting our online ecosystem to like manufacture political conversation

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Speaker 4: in a way that was inauthentic, and I think that's

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Speaker 4: important to talk about. Like, there was an entire Senate

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Speaker 4: inquiry report that said that Russia specifically was interested in

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Speaker 4: targeting black people, black voters and get them to either

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Speaker 4: vote for Trump or to stay home in our last

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Speaker 4: presidential election.

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Speaker 2: Right, So, like that's a thing.

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Speaker 4: However, I think in twenty twenty four, the conversation really

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Speaker 4: has to be more involved because it's not just foreign adversaries,

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Speaker 4: it is also people right here in the United States.

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Speaker 2: You have the front.

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Speaker 4: Runner for the Republican Party engaging in identity based disinformation

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Speaker 4: attacks all the time, right, And so I think the

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Speaker 4: problem has gotten more involved, and I think there are

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Speaker 4: more parties involved.

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Speaker 2: And I also think it's.

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Speaker 4: Been more normalized, right, Like I think like the idea

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Speaker 4: that someone would just lie about a candidate and tell

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Speaker 4: a lie that is only works because it is supported

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Speaker 4: by bias or unfair attitudes or lies.

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Speaker 2: About somebody's identity.

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Speaker 4: I think that we're in a place where people are

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Speaker 4: not calling that what it is, and so the whole

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Speaker 4: problem thats would have like gotten worse.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And I think like when you do call it

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Speaker 1: what it is, we've just become so like we don't

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Speaker 1: trust anybody else's data. We don't trust for they're getting

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Speaker 1: their sources. That's what my experience has been When I

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Speaker 1: get in fights with people, they're always like, where's your source?

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Speaker 4: No, don't even get me like this, like where don't

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Speaker 4: I even start?

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Speaker 2: Like I have had that same experience.

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Speaker 4: It's part and parcel of why I've kind of like

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Speaker 4: given up on a certain kind of online discourse with strangers,

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Speaker 4: because I'm just like, it's not worth my time. If

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Speaker 4: you're somebody who wants to be in the trenches arguing

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Speaker 4: with somebody on a Reddit, more love to you, like

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Speaker 4: good job, good luck, and it's.

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Speaker 2: Not my ministry. I don't have the energy, I don't

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Speaker 2: have the.

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Speaker 4: Time because and I guess that's the thing about people

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Speaker 4: with these entrenched worldviews, but it's very hard to have

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Speaker 4: conversations with them in some cases because it's like, oh well,

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Speaker 4: here's a like reputable source, and it's like, oh, well

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Speaker 4: the source is wrong. Here's why you can't trust whatever source.

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Speaker 4: And the problem is is really that like a lot

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Speaker 4: of these institutions and sources really have given people legit

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Speaker 4: reasons to be suss about them and to question them, and.

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Speaker 2: So it just makes it that much more complicated.

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Speaker 4: We're like, you know, well, yes, like I don't want

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Speaker 4: to go out here and cape for like the CDC

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Speaker 4: or whatever.

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Speaker 2: But like we have to start somewhere.

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Speaker 4: We have to have like a baseline understanding of just

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Speaker 4: the reality that we're all sharing, other wise everything breaks down.

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Speaker 1: You are someone who has been working in the world

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Speaker 1: of disinformation and misinformation for a while, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's interesting because when we talk to you, there's always

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Speaker 1: kind of like almost like a game plan of like

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Speaker 1: how things work, are how people do things, and as yes,

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Speaker 1: as you've been saying, like some of it relies on

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Speaker 1: what's baked in already, of like the sexism baked in

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Speaker 1: already totally.

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Speaker 4: So that is a great way to put it, Annie,

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Speaker 4: because it really is like a game plan. And I really,

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Speaker 4: in the work that I do around missing disinformation, I

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Speaker 4: really encourage folks to like take a step back and

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Speaker 4: see the machinations of how this is working, to sort

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Speaker 4: of see the ways that we are being essentially like

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Speaker 4: hoodwinked and grifters are sort of like getting something out

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Speaker 4: of us by following a very specific kind of game plan.

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Speaker 4: And so you can really think about the way that

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Speaker 4: we're seeing misogyny based attacks work today as a sort

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Speaker 4: of three pronged attack.

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Speaker 2: Prong one is online violence.

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Speaker 4: So like threats of abuse, hate speech, harassments, beer campaigns.

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Speaker 4: Then you have pronged two disinformation by bad actors. So

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Speaker 4: like the kind of artificial activity that Sam was talking about,

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Speaker 4: like bots, coordinated influence operations, fake news combined with algorithmic

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Speaker 4: preferences toward insidiary content. Right, Like a whole body of

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Speaker 4: research tells us that social media platforms, places like Twitter, Reddit, whatever,

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Speaker 4: they really do prioritize content.

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Speaker 2: That is inflammatory.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 4: And so if you are somebody who wants to tell

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Speaker 4: an inflammatory lie that it's identity based about somebody that

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Speaker 4: is going to get profential treatment on algorithms, it's just

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Speaker 4: a fact. And then the last prong is what you

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Speaker 4: were talking about Annie, just gold fashioned everyday sexism, right,

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Speaker 4: Just the general suspicion around women, particularly women of color

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Speaker 4: and black women, suspicion around our motivations, our abilities are

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Speaker 4: like motivations to lead, like why do we want to lead?

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Speaker 2: How do we get to a leadership position?

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Speaker 4: All of this really allows gender based attacks to take

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Speaker 4: root in mainstream political discourse. So I wish that we

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Speaker 4: were talking about something that we only see festering in

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Speaker 4: you know, random dudes blog dot biz. But a lot

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Speaker 4: of this conversation does get amplified to like mainstream platforms.

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Speaker 1: It does. And that's something I've been thinking about a

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Speaker 1: lot lately too, is the you've talked about before, like

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Speaker 1: how kind of like outrage gets more money, like in

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Speaker 1: it's monetized in our social media and other platforms. And

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Speaker 1: I feel when women point that out, the criticisms come

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Speaker 1: again of like, well, see she can't handle it or

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Speaker 1: what have you. But there are numbers to back this up.

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Speaker 2: Oh totally.

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Speaker 4: And something about that is like men are not being

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Speaker 4: asked to handle identity based criticisms when they run for

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Speaker 4: public office or just not. And so I would argue

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Speaker 4: that like a landscape where women are asked to handle

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Speaker 4: something that their counterparts simply do not have to deal

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Speaker 4: with is not a fair landscape.

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Speaker 2: And you shouldn't have to put up.

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Speaker 4: With identity based lies and smears to run for office.

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Speaker 4: You should be able to handle criticisms about your record,

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Speaker 4: about what you say, about your behavior, about your policy.

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Speaker 4: But we're not talking about that. We're talking about you

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Speaker 4: can't lead because you're a woman. I am suspicious of

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Speaker 4: your motivations because you're a woman. That's a different thing

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Speaker 4: that men in public office simply do not have to

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Speaker 4: deal with.

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Speaker 2: So let's look at some of the data around this.

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Speaker 4: So discrediting and disabusing women candidates in the twenty twenty

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Speaker 4: two midterm election echoed these patterns that really took shape

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Speaker 4: in twenty twenty when racist and sexist and ablest abuse

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Speaker 4: was hurled at candidates like Representative Ilhan Omar and Senator

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Speaker 4: Tammy Duckworth, when multiple secretaries of state faced harassment and

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Speaker 4: legit physical threats for ratifying the election results, and white

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Speaker 4: supremacists plotted to kidnap and hold ransom Governor Whitmere side note,

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Speaker 4: that is something that like, I don't think that we

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Speaker 4: ever like the fact that white supremacists were foiled in

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Speaker 4: a plot to kidnap a public elected official. We did

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Speaker 4: not have nearly enough conversation about that. I believe if

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Speaker 4: that had happened in another country, we would be like,

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Speaker 4: we would be looking at it like, wow, look who

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Speaker 4: can't do democracy? Oh my god, what is going on

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Speaker 4: over there? It happened here, and I feel like it

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Speaker 4: barely made made a blip.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's kind of like any abuse situation or

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Speaker 5: stalking situation unless they're dead. They don't care unless we die,

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Speaker 5: They're not going to listen. It's not an actual threat,

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Speaker 5: which is the most absurd thing that they need to

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Speaker 5: see it end in violence in order to give credit

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Speaker 5: to what happened, Like that's unfortunately what's happening.

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Speaker 4: And that's sort of my point of this whole conversation, Sam,

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Speaker 4: is that we shouldn't accept that we have to wait

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Speaker 4: until somebody is dead or in the hospital to have

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Speaker 4: these conversations. Right like media platforms amplified violence and abuse

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Speaker 4: against Nancy Pelosi and her hustbody broke into her house

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Speaker 4: and attacked her husband with a hammer and.

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Speaker 2: He was hospitalized, right.

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Speaker 4: Like, it shouldn't take something like that to be like,

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Speaker 4: oh wait, is this a real thing. It's a real thing,

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Speaker 4: and it shouldn't have to get to a point of

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Speaker 4: violence for us to really take it seriously, and that

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Speaker 4: these kinds of.

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Speaker 2: Attacks are really expanding.

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Speaker 4: There is a recent global study shows that women government

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Speaker 4: officials targeted with violence is one of the largest categories

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Speaker 4: of attacks in the US compared to other regions of

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Speaker 4: the world, which includes public and civil servants, local authorities,

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Speaker 4: and nonpartisan political appointments such as judges, so like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: like it's a global problem, but the problem is unique

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Speaker 4: in the United States, and especially given that we might

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Speaker 4: have two women running for vice president in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 4: The way that we talk about gender and leadership and

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Speaker 4: the way that we know the kind of conversations that

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Speaker 4: we normalize and tolerate around women in leadership, we are

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Speaker 4: going to have to sort of get that straight right,

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Speaker 4: because it's certainly going to be something that comes up.

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Speaker 4: In fact, I would say that we've already seen this

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Speaker 4: when it comes to a tax on Vice President Harris.

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Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, it's so sad because I remember having these

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Speaker 1: thoughts when like Hillary Clinton was almost elected and then

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Speaker 1: Vice President Kamala Harris. I was thinking that they're going

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Speaker 1: to be assassinated. I thought that, And that's horrific that

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Speaker 1: I thought it, But I was like worried for them.

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Speaker 1: And there's a reason to because there are. If you're

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Speaker 1: living in a world where you're getting constant threats of

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Speaker 1: like death and violence and sexual violence, it's hard not

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Speaker 1: to think like one of these people might actually do something.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, especially in a country where guns are not really

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Speaker 4: that difficult to come by, in a country that normalizes

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Speaker 4: and amplifies these this kind of violent rhetoric against women

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Speaker 4: in public officials like the conditions are perfect for that

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Speaker 4: kind of violence to easily move from online violence to

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Speaker 4: offline violence, just like we saw in January sixth, right

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Speaker 4: like we're I'm not like pulling this out of nowhere.

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Speaker 2: We have already seen this.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and again there are numbers behind behind.

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Speaker 2: This, there sure are.

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Speaker 4: So shout out to the Institute for Strategic Dialogue. They

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Speaker 4: have a study that found that women of color candidates

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Speaker 4: are targeted by the right at really alarming rates online

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Speaker 4: a couple of key finding so, abusive messages accounted for

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Speaker 4: more than fifteen percent of those directed at every female

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Speaker 4: lawmaker analyzed, compared with around five to ten percent of

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Speaker 4: male candidates. Women of color are particularly likely to be targeted.

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Speaker 4: And this piece I think is really important. So male

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Speaker 4: politicians who are ethnic minorities are not more vulnerable than

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Speaker 4: their white counterparts. For instance, Corey Booker and Tim Scott,

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Speaker 4: who are both black men, got similar levels of abuse

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Speaker 4: to white male candidates. However, the attacks against them were

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Speaker 4: more likely to be around race. ISD found so abuse

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Speaker 4: directed toward women it's more likely to be about their

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Speaker 4: gender than abuse targeting men. Abuse targeting men was more

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Speaker 4: generalized and focused on their political stances, while the messages

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Speaker 4: directed that women are more likely to focus on things

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Speaker 4: like their appearance or like general competence. Female Democrats received

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Speaker 4: ten times more abusive comments than their male counterparts on Facebook,

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Speaker 4: and Republican women received twice as many abusive comments as

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Speaker 4: Republican men. So it's one of those situations where women

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Speaker 4: of color and black women.

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Speaker 2: Are really shouldering the majority of this burden.

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Speaker 4: But it's it's it's not the same along gender and

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Speaker 4: race lines, right, Like it is very different if you

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Speaker 4: are criticizing somebody because of their their political stances or

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Speaker 4: their policy versus if you're criticizing somebody because of the

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Speaker 4: way they look or because of like a like a

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Speaker 4: general sussbission of who they are based on their identity, Like,

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Speaker 4: those things are very different. And as this report from

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Speaker 4: the Institute for Strategic Dialogue points out, everybody is not

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Speaker 4: shouldering that burden equally.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and it's it's very frustrating for a lot of reasons.

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Speaker 1: But as going back to like the whole like showing

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Speaker 1: your sources thing, it's really hard to combat, right, it's

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Speaker 1: really hard to to fight against this.

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Speaker 4: It really is like, this is work that I have

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Speaker 4: done professionally during various times of my career, and you know,

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Speaker 4: being in the space, we talk a lot about things

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Speaker 4: like debunking, which I do think has its place. However,

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Speaker 4: it's a pretty frustrating endeavor because it's like you're playing

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Speaker 4: whack a mole, right Like I used to be the

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Speaker 4: person who would have meetings with Facebook or Twitter or

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Speaker 4: Reddit and be like, oh, well, here's a bunch of

441
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 4: examples of content that violates your terms of service and

442
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 4: seems to be violent threats or attacks on public officials

443
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 4: or women running for office, and they'd be.

444
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: Like, okay, we'll take those down.

445
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 4: And it's like you can't do that forever, right Like,

446
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 4: So it is a frustrating thing, and I think, you know,

447
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 4: you need more than just debunking to combat this stuff,

448
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 4: you know, gender disinformation. I don't feel like it can

449
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 4: really be addressed through just fact checking or debunking. These

450
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 4: attacks are often based in character assassination or just unverifiable information,

451
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 4: and so when that is magnified by algorithmic preferences of

452
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 4: platforms that privilege fake and outrageous content.

453
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: To enhance profit. We have a real problem.

454
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 4: It's a tech problem, it's a policy problem, it's a

455
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 4: democracy problem, it's a cultural problem.

456
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: It's a lot of problems all rolled into one big

457
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: ball that like whack.

458
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 4: Playing whack the moll on individual pieces of content just

459
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 4: ain't going to cut it right. And so I would

460
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 4: say that this really needs to be combated by changing

461
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 4: social media platform policies in the long term, and also

462
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 4: a cultural understanding of what's going on. Right, So not

463
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 4: just being like, oh, well, it's just a platform problem,

464
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 4: really understanding the role that, like the way that we're

465
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 4: all thinking about and talking about women who run for

466
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 4: office and other marginalized people who run for office, really

467
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 4: does play a role in pushing back against this.

468
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 5: I mean a part of the conversation is that the

469
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 5: reason feminism is important, the reason intersectional feminism is important,

470
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 5: is to undo the misogyny and the conversations that happened

471
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 5: that allowed this to start with, that allow this type

472
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 5: of rhetoric to begin with. Like in this conversation, odd

473
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 5: because I always go back to thinking, how immediately like

474
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 5: a one a man specifically wants to threaten a woman

475
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 5: is always some kind of sexual violence that's the immediate

476
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,959
Speaker 5: part is like their go too. And we know when

477
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 5: it comes to war crimes, that's one of the number

478
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 5: one things that is used within these wars that are

479
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 5: often so like awful. We start thinking about it, like

480
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 5: the level of sexual violence that happened to show power

481
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 5: and control and a lot all of this has to

482
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 5: do with the misogynistic take on power, and it's kind

483
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 5: of one of those questions of like how do you

484
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 5: even begin, especially when it's so deeply rooted that any

485
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 5: almost especially like I'm gonna say this, like uneducated, ignorant people,

486
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 5: that's their go to, Like that's the first thing, is

487
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,479
Speaker 5: that you deserve to be like raped, Like that's their comment,

488
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 5: and you see it so many times that it becomes normalized.

489
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, how many of us, like I know

490
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 4: that I've experienced this.

491
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 2: I'm sure that you all have.

492
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 4: I'm sure that a lot of people listening, how many

493
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 4: of us have had some creed say like I hope

494
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 4: you get raped, you deserve to be raped. Like the

495
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,719
Speaker 4: fact that that is hurled at us as a threat

496
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 4: when we speak up and use our voices, I think

497
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 4: that that illustrates exactly what you're talking about.

498
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: Them.

499
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what what can we do then to address

500
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: this online? Perhaps?

501
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 4: So the first thing I would say is really understanding

502
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 4: the kinds of attacks that stick and letting that kind

503
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 4: of inform your thinking about how you respond.

504
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 2: Right, because not all of these these.

505
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 4: Tactics are creative equal, So let's look at the ones

506
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 4: that are actually effective at impacting voting behavior. Attacks that

507
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 4: seem to pack the biggest punch on voter behavior focus

508
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 4: on character things like trust, qualifications, likability, and control with

509
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 4: a constant backdrop these like sexualized attacks that we were

510
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 4: just talking about. So you can sort of think of

511
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 4: these attacks as manifesting in the.

512
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 2: Candidates are untrustworthy.

513
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 4: So women are liars or hypocrites or too ambitious, right that,

514
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 4: like the very fact that this woman is running for

515
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 4: office means that there is something off about her, Like

516
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 4: you can't trust somebody who wants it too much?

517
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 2: Right, And then meanwhile it's like, oh, so did like.

518
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 4: The male candidate just like accidentally fill out the paperwork

519
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 4: to run and just like accidentally found themselves on a

520
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 4: podium like And those attacks really work because trust is

521
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 4: obviously a major factor in vote choice. Another one is

522
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 4: that women are unqualified women are stupid, weak, incapable, and experienced.

523
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 2: Right, So historically.

524
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 4: Women must meet a higher threshold to prove their qualifications.

525
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: Another is that women are just unlikable. I just don't

526
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 2: like her.

527
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 4: I don't like her face, I don't like what she

528
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 4: stands for, difficult to get along with.

529
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 2: This is one that like you see a lot with

530
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: women of color.

531
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 4: You know they're angry or like never satisfied or like

532
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 4: what a sour puss. No one likes them. They have

533
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 4: annoying personalities. Like women, leaders are expected to be agreeable.

534
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 4: I remember when Elizabeth Warren was running for president. One

535
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 4: of the attacks that her campaign really saw a lot

536
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 4: is that she was like too prepared and would would evoke.

537
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: Plans for too many things.

538
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 4: So if you asked her a question, she'd be like, oh,

539
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 4: here's my plan on that, or like here's my policy

540
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 4: paper on that, and people were like, don't like it too.

541
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: I can't be with her.

542
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: It really. I mean, like if.

543
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 4: You're if you were a woman who like dominated and

544
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 4: led the group project in class, I don't need to

545
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 4: tell you that. Sometimes when you're really good and really

546
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 4: qualified and know what you're doing, uh, that will be

547
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 4: seen as an attack on you.

548
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 2: We're like used against.

549
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 4: You to be like, I just don't like her, even

550
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 4: though she's like did all the work on this project

551
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 4: that I would have gotten an F without her, I

552
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 4: don't like it. And lastly that they're uncontrollable. They're too angry,

553
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 4: too crazy, too hormonal, too evil, all of that, that

554
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 4: they're too whatever to be voted into office. And you

555
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 4: can really see how these are like things that kind

556
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 4: of there's there's really no way to win because they

557
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 4: are sexually promiscuous or they're uneffable, right, so it's like, oh,

558
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 4: if you're too sexual or not sexual enough, both of

559
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 4: those are like attacks, so it's like what are you

560
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 4: supposed to do, Like there's no way to.

561
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: Win, right. A lot of these are very they're conflicting

562
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: with each other. It's like you're too ambitious, but you

563
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: don't know what you're doing. Like it's like too okay,

564
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: I can't prepared. I guess that's bad, too okay.

565
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 4: Cool, absolutely and so like, and all of these attacks

566
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 4: work and they stick despite being like contradictory or like

567
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 4: seemingly really silly. They work because of this larger system

568
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 4: of unchecked misogyny massage noire and biased against women. That

569
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 4: is worse for marginalized women. And so the reason why

570
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 4: these are effective and actually you know, not just existing

571
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 4: out there but actually impacting voting behavior is because of

572
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 4: this larger cultural climate of bias against women and marginalized people.

573
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I know a lot of us have experienced

574
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: that just in our lives, just seen it. Do you

575
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: have any tips on how we can counter this or

576
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: fight back against this?

577
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: Totally?

578
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 4: So the biggest one, I think is just to share positive,

579
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 4: accurate content about women's participation in civic and political life.

580
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 4: You know, I would say the most effective form of

581
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 4: inoculation against this is not like debunking each specific individual attack,

582
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 4: It is demonstrating that women belong in political life, that

583
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 4: women are good leaders, So really demonstrating women as trustworthy, qualified,

584
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 4: and competent. That's the kind of content that we need

585
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 4: to really correct the narrative and protect leaders and emphasize

586
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 4: the need for women and marginalized people's place in political involvement.

587
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 4: So take all of that to mean that probably the

588
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 4: worst thing that you can do if you're trying to

589
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 4: combat this kind of thing is to directly respond or

590
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 4: engage with individual attacks because that could amplify them or

591
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 4: legitimize them. This is something that I think is really

592
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 4: tough and I have to check myself on because when

593
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 4: I'm scrolling social media and I see like a lie

594
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 4: about a woman, my first instinct is to reply and

595
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 4: be like, that's not true, blah blah blah. But because

596
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 4: of the way that algorithms work, you actually might be

597
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 4: amplifying that because the algorithm is like, oh, you're engaging

598
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 4: with this, it must be good content.

599
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: Let me show it to more people. So that is

600
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 2: not what you want to do.

601
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 4: Instead, push out positive, proactive counter messaging that supports women

602
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 4: leaders as qualified and also acknowledge the kinds of identity

603
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 4: based harms that they are facing. So if there's a

604
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 4: particular woman candidate that you're like, like, yay, I like

605
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 4: this person, emphasize that woman's credentials, her expertise, her background,

606
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 4: and her shared values. According to research from Gretchen Barton

607
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 4: of the Worthy Strategy Group, there are six intangible qualities

608
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 4: that Americans look for in their leaders. They want somebody

609
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 4: who is a challenger, a nurturer, an innovator, strong, stable,

610
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 4: and visible and meets the moment right and so there

611
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 4: is a huge disparity in women being and underrepresented in

612
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 4: each of these categories that Americans site when they're asked

613
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 4: to envision what they want of a leader, And so

614
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 4: we should really be working to flip the script a

615
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 4: little bit and show all the different ways that these

616
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 4: dynamic women leaders that dot our political landscape fit those

617
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 4: things that Americans say that they want out of their leaders, right,

618
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 4: So highlighting the ways that women are innovators, highlighting the

619
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 4: ways that women are strong and stable and visible, highlighting

620
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 4: the ways that women really are the ones who are

621
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 4: rising up to meet the moment and challenging the status quo. Right,

622
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 4: all of these things that we know make women great leaders.

623
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,479
Speaker 4: A good way to challenge the lies that women are

624
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 4: facing in our current media climate is to highlight.

625
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: The truth about the.

626
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 4: Fact that women do make really good leaders and that

627
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 4: we want a pluralistic society where women are well represented.

628
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: Yes, and it's really unfortunate because there are examples of this,

629
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: plenty of examples of women being good leaders, but it

630
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: always feels like either they're ignored or like, if I'm

631
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: thinking of cases from outside the United States, like that's

632
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: the United States, though, like she's a good leader from Europe.

633
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: Okay New Zealand, honey, Okay, cool. I don't like that

634
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: one thing. I have to say. I have had some

635
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: experiences where I've tried with liberal white men to do this,

636
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: and let me tell you how angry they got. I

637
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: was shocked. So if that's that's like a to me,

638
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: that a wake up call of how embedded this is.

639
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: That I thought they would at least hear me out,

640
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: and they did not.

641
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I hate to say it.

642
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 4: I have had the same experience, and I think there

643
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 4: are a lot of men in my life that think

644
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 4: of themselves as like progressive or radical or lefty or

645
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 4: like promoters of democracy. But then even they don't see

646
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 4: the ways that misogyny and sexism threaten our democracy, even

647
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 4: as those things are so clear to me. And so

648
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,399
Speaker 4: I've really experienced what you're highlighting that like, even from

649
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 4: men who are like ostensibly with it.

650
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: It's just I think it's just I don't think that

651
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 2: men see it that way all the time.

652
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 4: I just think that they that they're like, oh well,

653
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 4: sexism ended back in whatever, and like it's just not

654
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 4: a topic that I think impacts our lives anymore when

655
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 4: it so impacts our lives, and I guess that's one

656
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 4: of the reasons why it's so insidious and why it

657
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 4: takes such intentionality to combat it, because the things are

658
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 4: so ingrained that people might not even realize the ways

659
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 4: that they are contributing to it.

660
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: Yep. I had a guy tell me there was no

661
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: sexism in the twenty sixteen election, and I was like,

662
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: you do know what I do for a living, right,

663
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: It's like, I just don't see it. Okay, cool, I'm

664
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: gonna leave because I'm gonna get real mad. But just

665
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: I don't agree. And a part of that is this

666
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: idea we shouldn't talk about it, are we should ignore it,

667
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 1: which is not really helpful.

668
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 2: Always no there, I mean, I'm guilty of this too.

669
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 4: There used to be this attitude that, you know, the

670
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 4: only way to counter these unfair attacks was to ignore them,

671
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 4: right like when they go low, we go high, Like

672
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 4: don't don't mention it, like it'll go away. I hate

673
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 4: to say that that is really a page from an old,

674
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,720
Speaker 4: outdated playbook. Research really suggests now that ignoring these attacks.

675
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: Just doesn't make them go away.

676
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 4: It just allows them to fester, get amplified and become

677
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 4: legitimized and become part of our political discourse.

678
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: And it could also kind of.

679
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 4: Backfire for women who are running for office, because candidates

680
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 4: want to see like strength and backbone and a candidate

681
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 4: meeting the moment. And so if you're like I'm not

682
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 4: going to respond to that, that can sort of backfire

683
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,720
Speaker 4: because it's like, oh, well, why isn't she meeting the moment.

684
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 4: So that doesn't mean that like a woman candidate needs

685
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 4: to get meyred down in the in the bog of

686
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 4: like defending herself against unfair lies and attacks. But it's

687
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 4: really about emphasizing your accomplishments and qualifications in a way

688
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 4: that corrects harmful narratives without repeating those narratives and without

689
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 4: legitimizing those narratives. It's like a little bit of a

690
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 4: tightrope block to do it correctly. And again, like I

691
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 4: just want to emphasize that it's something that we should

692
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 4: not have to do. Like certainly male candidates are not

693
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 4: having to prepare counter messaging in this way to be like, well,

694
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 4: I got to respond to this attack, but in a

695
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 4: way that emphasizes my values and thus legitimize it.

696
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 2: And also like like.

697
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 4: It's a minefield that not everybody is asked to wade through.

698
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 4: So I just want to acknowledge that we should not

699
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 4: have to deal with this. However, I have seen a

700
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 4: lot of candidates who use these kinds of unfair identity

701
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 4: based attacks as an opportunity to really create community and

702
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 4: contrast with the people who are hurling these attacks at them.

703
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 4: Like a good example is the former Canadian Minister of

704
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 4: Climate and Environment Catherine McKenna, exemplified this advice when she

705
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 4: pushed back against this this hashtag that she was facing

706
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 4: that labels her climate Barbie, which resulted in death threats,

707
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 4: and to respond, she tweeted, do you use that sexist

708
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 4: garbage about your daughter, mother, and sister? We need more

709
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 4: women in politics. Your sexist comments won't stop us. And

710
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 4: so that's a really interesting way how she responds to

711
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 4: an unfair sexist attack that attacks her gender and makes

712
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 4: it about all the other women and girls who are

713
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 4: watching this kind of garbage and and being like, don't

714
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 4: we want a climate that supports these women and girls

715
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 4: to be in politics?

716
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 2: Like you know, these.

717
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 4: Kinds of comments go against that, like and they're not

718
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 4: going to stop us, right, So, like I have seen

719
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 4: candidates that really challenge this in some unique ways.

720
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and going back to your point of like, we

721
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to be doing this at all, And this

722
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 1: is a topic I think about a lot in terms

723
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: of so many, so many things, But it's not just

724
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: women who are being targeted that should have to speak

725
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: up or say something.

726
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 4: I'm so glad that you brought that up, because I mean,

727
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 4: how many of us have been in a situation where

728
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 4: somebody says something or does something and you're like, oh,

729
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 4: I don't want to be the one that has to

730
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 4: be like, well, that's actually offensive, or like that's actually

731
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 4: not a cool thing.

732
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: To say in the workplace.

733
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 4: And it really shouldn't just be on the person who

734
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 4: is targeted to respond to this, because challenging a sexist

735
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 4: climate really does take all of that to speak up.

736
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 4: So a good example of this is Fannie Willis, which

737
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 4: I think you all might know, do y'all. I feel

738
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 4: like in Atlanta she might be somebody who's on Yell's radar.

739
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 5: As well as just kicks in the primary, so we're

740
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 5: very excited.

741
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 4: So Willis is the Fulton County District attorney prosecuting the

742
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 4: Georgia Trump election case constantly under attack, right, really showing

743
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 4: how black women are attacked and undermined, and how that

744
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 4: is a strategy to undermine democratic process, So that it

745
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 4: was a really good example. On February fifteenth, Willis took

746
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 4: the witness stand and right wing actors, including Fox News, surprise, surprise,

747
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 4: they circulated this meme that suggested that she had worn

748
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 4: her dress backward. So this is a caption that Fox

749
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 4: News put out Bonnie set to take the hot seat

750
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 4: again after day one packed with yelling a wink and.

751
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 2: Surprise backward dress.

752
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 4: So basically they were saying, this black woman is so

753
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 4: stupid and and competent that can you believe she wore

754
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 4: her dress backward?

755
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,240
Speaker 2: What an idiot? Who would ever believe in her leadership?

756
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 4: Right?

757
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: Like that was the substance of the attack.

758
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 4: However, a guy on TikTok delegitimized that attack that had

759
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 4: broken into mainstream media by pointing out in a TikTok

760
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 4: that like, actually, here's the dress and she was wearing

761
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 4: it correctly, right, So this was like nonsense that a

762
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 4: fairly mainstream news outlet amplified just completely wrong. He found

763
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 4: the dress, it's like she's wearing it perfectly correctly.

764
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 2: While he did.

765
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 4: That, other institutions put out positive counter content, avoiding the

766
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,479
Speaker 4: direct attacks while emphasizing Willis's leadership and qualifications in order

767
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 4: to target them. So it was this like two pronged

768
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,439
Speaker 4: thing where the TikTok messenger was able to be like, look,

769
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 4: how ridiculous this attack is, y'all, while other institutions pushed

770
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 4: out positive messaging about Willis's leadership and so really it

771
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 4: should not be on just her, this person targeted to

772
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 4: respond to these garbage lies about her character and her

773
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 4: values and her leadership. It really takes age to create

774
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 4: the culture where sets of them and misogyny is not

775
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,479
Speaker 4: able to thrive and take root in this way.

776
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 5: Yes, and I would like to say Alana backed her

777
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 5: like I said, she killed it in the primaries.

778
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 3: We all celebrated.

779
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 5: We love her at this point, Like of course, you know,

780
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 5: when it comes to judicial systems in the South, it

781
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 5: can get ugly. But when you have a case like

782
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 5: this and you realize you have someone who is firm

783
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 5: and we love it, like it's it's representing what we

784
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 5: want to see in Atlanta, which is we're not taking

785
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 5: care from you so move on.

786
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's also so many of these attacks that

787
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 1: we're seeing right now are also distractions from like real

788
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: things we should be talking about. And it's I mean,

789
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: like she is wearing her dress backwards. It does have

790
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: these as you said, what they're trying to signal is

791
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 1: she is incompetent. But it's also just so like, okay,

792
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: but it's really important that we talk about this because

793
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: we are in an election year, extremely important election year,

794
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 1: and all of this stuff is very dangerous.

795
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think like if you're listening and you're like.

796
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 4: Well, I don't like Willis, I don't like Harris, I

797
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 4: don't like Pelosi, that is your right. However, you should

798
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 4: be more than anybody wanting to have a climate where

799
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 4: we are able to talk about these leaders and their

800
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 4: qualifications and their records in a way that is fair

801
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 4: and honest.

802
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: Right, Like, when the climate.

803
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 4: Is cluttered up with all kinds of garbage, sexist lies

804
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 4: and attacks, you can't actually have an honest conversation about

805
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 4: why these leaders are failing us or why these leaders

806
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 4: are not failing us. It just creates a dynamic where

807
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 4: like we're not having a conversation about the actual thing.

808
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 4: We're talking about backward dresses or whether or not somebody's

809
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 4: face looks weird, right, Like, we're just not having a

810
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 4: sub conversation. And it does not just threaten the women

811
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 4: who are targeted, it threatens all of us. Undermining women

812
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 4: leaders is part of a larger anti democracy agenda, right

813
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 4: It is not just about these individual women. It is

814
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 4: about threatening our democracy. And as you were saying earlier, Annie, Like,

815
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,240
Speaker 4: it is unfortunate that it is very effective because people

816
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 4: might not always be able to see the ways that

817
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 4: sexism and misogyny and massage noire really threaten the fabric

818
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 4: of our democracy. It is this insidious thing that can

819
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 4: operate and plain in sight, even amongst people who think

820
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 4: of themselves as people who want to protect democracy.

821
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: And so we really need to get a handle on it.

822
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 4: We need to talk about it honestly, and we need

823
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 4: to listen to the people who are targeted and come

824
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 4: forward to talk about what they have dealt with just

825
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 4: for trying to serve their country or be part of

826
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 4: public or civic life.

827
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, and I think I'm sure we'll be talking

828
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: about the election for several episodes. But it's also I

829
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 1: would say sadly of and plenty of my women friends

830
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: who are like, well, I don't want to vote for

831
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: her because they're I'm honestly, it sounds like I'm scared

832
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: to vote for her because what if she's bad? Or

833
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: like I'm hearing all this stuff about her and she

834
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: must be bad. So it's a really really toxic environment

835
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: for like actual conversations and democracy.

836
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean I remember, like I have felt that,

837
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,959
Speaker 4: like I have been, I have been like, oh, I'm

838
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 4: worried about having XYZ marginalized person in public office because

839
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 4: we have this insidious culture that it's like, well, we

840
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 4: tried one out and it didn't work, so we can

841
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 4: ever have another one. And that's just such a like

842
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,240
Speaker 4: limiting mindset, and it's a mindset that you can creep

843
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 4: in before you know it. And we should really be

844
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 4: doing the intentional, sometimes internal work of like unwarring the

845
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 4: way that these things have really been internalized sometimes by

846
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 4: women and other marginalized people.

847
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: Yes, well as always Bridget, thank you so much for

848
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: doing this work, for coming on to share it with us.

849
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 1: We always love having you. Can you tell the good

850
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: listeners where to find you?

851
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 4: You can find me on my podcast if there are

852
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 4: no girls on the Internet, and you can find me

853
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:18,919
Speaker 4: on Instagram at Bridget Marie in DC.

854
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: Yes and go do that. Listeners so important, so important,

855
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: and thanks as always, yes to Bridget and to you

856
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: for listening. If you would like to contact us, you

857
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 1: can our email Stepania mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

858
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: Can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, and

859
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: on TikTok and Instagram That Stuff I Ever told you.

860
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: We're on YouTube, we have a tblic store, and we

861
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: have a book you can get wherever you get your books.

862
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, our exective

863
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: producer My and your contributor Joey.

864
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 3: Thank you and.

865
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told You

866
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: to protection of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from my

867
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, you can check out the Heart Radio ap

868
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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, where you listen to favorite shows.

869
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Speaker 2: The Lone