WEBVTT - Especifismo Ft. Saint Andrew 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:08.960 Welcome everyone to the It Could Happen Here podcast. My 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.560 name is said Andrew, and I'll be your host as 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:19.200 we talk about politics stuff with me today is Garrison Hello, 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:26.720 and Christopher Hello, and Sufie him. And today we will 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:30.280 be tackling or rather we'll be taking a trip to 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:34.839 the anarchist activism in Latin America with A specifies more. 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:37.840 But first we need to get into some context here. 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:42.000 The first organization to promote the concept of a specifies 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:47.520 MOO was the Federation Anarchista Uruguaya or the FAU, which 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:50.640 is founded in nineteen fifty six by anarchist Milton's who 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:55.080 embraced the idea of an organization that was specifically anarchist. 0:00:55.880 --> 0:01:01.480 But those who don't know, not long after, rather two 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:06.520 decades after ni UM, the US installed a dictatorship in Uruguay, 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:12.560 the last from nine. The FA you survived that dictatorship 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:17.120 and went on to establish connections with other South American 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:21.040 anarchist revolutionaries. So they helped to support the founding of 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:26.320 the Fedahao Anarchista Gaochia or fer G. I don't know 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:29.679 if I'm pronounced that correctly. The Federes shall an Artista 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:34.960 Kola and the Ferres shall an Arkista the Rio de 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:38.520 Janeiro or f the r G in their respective regions 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:42.320 of Brazil, and they also helped to found the Argentinean 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:48.680 organization as Alka, which means rebel. While only coming onto 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:53.720 stage in Latin America within the last few decades. The 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:57.880 ideas that really make up A specifies more tasan a 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:03.080 historic threat that's really run to the anarchist movement internationally 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:08.040 since the beginning. UM. It may as we get into 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:10.600 like what is spect feasion is and stuff, it may 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.440 sound very similar to platform is um. Are you all 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:19.919 familiar with that current Yeah, I'm from familiar with platforms 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:24.640 a little bit, but we can probably, I don't know, 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:27.720 explain it for the people at at at home who 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.760 are not as, who do not spend as much time 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:36.440 thinking about old, old, old anarchist terms right right right, 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:43.600 so their generic listener or viewer or whatever. UM. Platform 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.880 is UM began with a document that was written in 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:53.320 nine by the former Peasant Army leader Nestor Maknu either 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:58.160 Met and other militants of the Yellow Truda or Workers 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:02.760 Cause group. They published the document called Organizational Platform of 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:07.920 the Libertarian Communists and it was written in response to 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:15.920 well being exiled from the Russian Revolution um and having 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:20.840 to struggle really to find their foot in after the 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.400 Bolsheviks turn the work of Soviets into instruments of one 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:28.440 party rule. UM. So the Power Space Group, the Deal Truder. 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:32.440 They really criticized the anarchist movement for a lack of organization. 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:38.320 So they proposed an alternative that is controversial to some anarchists, 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:42.000 but it's essentially a general union of anarchists based on 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:46.680 anarchist communism that would strive for theoretical and tactical unity. 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:51.240 And I focused on class struggle and labor unions. Obviously, 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.680 platform is um like all political ideas, it's not a 0:03:55.800 --> 0:04:00.200 static you know, the world has progressed sick significant lee 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.240 in a century, so um. While there is an emphasis 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:09.000 and workers struggle and class struggle. UM. When you speak 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.720 to most platforms today, I would say, um, obviously I 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.160 don't have stats on that. I would say most platforms 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.640 can recognize that, you know, the no war with the 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:24.480 class war is a bit reductive. UM. I've also noticed, 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.919 actually that platformism has been getting a bit more popularity lately. 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:29.839 I don't know if it's just me and my perception. 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:34.280 But I don't know if you' all seen that I have. 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:36.960 I've not seen tons of it here. A lot of 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:41.720 the type of anarchism I'm around, or at least see 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.520 is is not is not in this vein. But most 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:48.479 most of the stuff I see is like around UM, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.760 like the kind of like live anarchy type kind of 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:59.400 strains um and more individualists. Right, But that's just I 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.839 think a very like Pacific Northwest specific thing that the 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.400 anarchists here just kind of generally trend in that direction. 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.120 So I'm not sure what it's literally like across like 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.440 this country in other places around the world. Yeah, I know, 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:17.039 I know, I know, I've definitely seen it. Especially I 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:19.400 think I think it's it's I don't know, almost think 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:24.040 it's bigger a few years ago. But back like there 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:30.680 is a big spike of black rose um serious group 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.919 for a while, and yeah, people who like called themselves 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.920 like anarcho communists or anarcho syndicalists kind of generally swam 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:42.240 in this general ocean. Yeah, I definitely saw that as 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.719 a bigger thing in than now, at least like locally 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.240 from my area. And I think I will say, yeah, 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:51.120 the blacks people. A lot of them, like very very 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:53.560 specifically were specific based, and a lot of it was 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:58.120 based on like people who had like experiences with a 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:04.240 specific moment very as ways, right right, yeah, because I 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.160 was actually just about to say, I think that black 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.359 Rose is more as specificity than Platform is. But of 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.279 course there is you know, a lot of overlap between 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:17.240 these two currents, right, Um. As for my experience with 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:22.640 like platform and some and stuff, have seen UM discussions 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.320 of it happening more. I mean, that's all I can 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:30.400 really see that I've seen. UM. Have you ever read once? 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:35.800 But at least if discussions are happening, the likelihood of 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.800 things coming out of it might be a bit. In Greece, 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:44.720 I guess another current that UM has been part of 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:52.760 the anarchists milieu, psychgeist wave whatever is organizational dualism, which 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:56.560 came out to the nineteen twenties Italian anarchist movement. So 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.760 they use the tomb to describe involvements of anarchists both 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:04.640 as members of anarchists specific political organizations and also as 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:10.400 militants in the labor movement. In Spain, the Friends of 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:15.320 Druti group emerged to oppose the Gradual reviews Cell, the 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:20.400 Smash Revolution n and they also ended up emulating some 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.760 of the ideas of the platform by criticizing you know, 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:29.880 the cnt F phase, c ant f AIS, gradual reformism 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:34.880 and collaboration with republican government. Um. So the spars of 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:36.760 war and stuff. You know, there's a lot of forces 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.840 that play and we're gonna get into now, but it is, 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:46.480 I would say, as a side note, important to recognize 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:50.800 that there is no model it when it comes to 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.760 like these sort of civil wars and historical events. Um, 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:57.360 you really have to look at things in context and 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.520 you know, it's not trying to strip them away from 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:05.920 the goings on at the time. Also, the Chinese anarchist 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:10.440 movement of the nineteen tens um advocated for similar ideas. 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:13.200 I'm going to try to pronounce the name of the group, 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:19.200 hopefully don't get castled, but it's the who Shuang Fu Kong, 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:24.400 Shan Jui Tong, She's a way, I think, which is 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:29.360 the Society of Anarchists Communist Comrades. And yeah, they advocated 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:31.680 for a lot of similar ideas. So there's a lot 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.880 of different currents around the world influenced by you know, 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:40.480 the historic conditions. But the general thread that you know 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.839 anarchists need to get together and work as a unit 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:49.760 is you know what's thrust in it, right and specifies more, 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.720 is just a fresh continuation of this threat of this trend. 0:08:55.679 --> 0:09:00.160 So what is that? What is the specifies more exactly 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:06.079 the three key concepts um that I see emphasized again 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:11.679 and again. One the need for specifically anarchist organization built 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:16.000 around a unity of ideas and practice. Two, the use 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:20.359 of the specifically anarchist organization to theorize and develop strategic 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:25.320 political and organizing work. And three active involvement in and 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:29.920 building of autonomous and popular social movements, which is described 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:36.560 as the process of social institution. So kind of core 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:42.160 to the whole specificity current is which is rather antithectical 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:44.640 some of the trends that I've seen in the past 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:48.000 couple of years. It's sort of a rejection of this 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:51.120 left unity idea, right, this idea that there can be 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:59.320 these this sort of big tent organization that can somehow 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:05.040 estab ash all these different visions simultaneously. Right. So I 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:10.960 specificity reject the idea of just unity of unity's sake, 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.200 because they feel it boils down to sort of Louis 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:18.440 common denominate to kind of wishy washy politics. They feel 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:22.800 it when unity is preferred at all costs, it leaves 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.760 very little room for unified action or developed political discussion. 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.640 In fact, in my experience, when you have like a 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:36.960 lot of political heterogene um, there tends to be a 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:42.800 lot of unproductive drama lack of better word. Obviously, people 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:48.440 of different political stripes should work together, um, And there's 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.839 no like harm in that. But at the same time, 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.600 when it comes to certain types of organizations, having a 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:02.360 sense of ideological unity is I would say pretty important. 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.199 As you know, you don't want to have all these 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:11.240 different groups constantly butting heads for all these different visions. 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:12.960 You know, you want to have at least some sense 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:15.360 that we're moving in sync. Right, So you're not going 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:20.200 to have some people who are trying to establish social 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:22.760 democracy and some people who are trying to get like 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:28.959 this workers state code and code, or you know, people 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:33.959 who just want i don't know, like a higher minimum reach, right. 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.080 I mean, everyone's on a different stage of their political journey. 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:41.360 But what specificity try to emphasize is that while we 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:47.880 can work within these larger social movements, um, it's important 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:54.840 that artists specifically come together to try to shape those 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.040 movements in an organized way. And I'll explain because it 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.440 kind of sounds a bit like anangotism for some people, 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:06.200 this idea that you know, these this cabal of like 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:11.760 revolutionaries are trying to manipulate things behind the scenes. But um, really, 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:16.560 what a specificitts argue is that and I guess needed space. 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.760 They need space for like common strategy and reflection and 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:27.880 collective responsibility and you know, a place to discuss plans 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:31.760 and build trust and share analysis and you know, put 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:35.640 together shorts and long term goals all that jazz. Um. 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:39.640 So will the specificitys do reach out to and work 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.680 with social movements regardless of whether they fit this code 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:47.120 and code anarchist purity test um. And I see that 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.840 with my tongue planted family and cheek of course, Um, 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:54.199 they want to make sure that they can sue still 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.800 as an active minority, so that these movements aren't diluted. 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.120 And so I noticed like throwing out a lot of 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:05.280 different woods and freezers and ideas, um, you know, things 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:09.680 like ideological unity and the need for sort of a 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:14.679 consensus within the group. Um. And speaking of I've spoken 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:17.920 about consensus on my channel before, so I have a 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:21.200 breakdown on it. People can check out if they're like, um, 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.560 I was spoke of unified strategy, right, So you're not 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.040 just joking around, you actually have mapped out sort of strategy. 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.920 Like for example, black socialists in America. They aren't like 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.640 a specifically a specificity or to my knowledge, but you 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.920 can see um that they have like a unified, like 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.719 clearly leader strategy and they're making moves to make it 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:47.960 to achieve it, and they're very public about those moves, right. Um. 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.599 I also I want to emphasize, of course, in the 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:55.440 specifies more the whole idea of this active minority. You know, 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:59.599 it's not just a bunch of like it's not like 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.600 a path of book club, right. And a specificity group 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.360 is a group of people who are passionate about you 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:12.560 know this cause um, and obviously passionate people have this 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.959 habit of for they can more than they can chew. Right. 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.440 So what I would advise like a specificity and a 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:25.400 specificity judgment adjacent groups and really just organizations in general, 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:32.200 is that keep your size in mind, keep achievable goals 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:37.240 within sight, because if you don't you know, it's very 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:42.120 easy to burn out very quickly. Yeah. Um. With the 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:47.280 specificity groups, it's important that they understand their responsibility, but 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:53.160 also that they understand their limits. Lastly, and very importantly, 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.080 social institution, I think is one of the most important 0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:59.840 parts for specificity mo and I think even if you 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:04.520 do want to take anything away from like specificity specifies more, 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:11.240 you at the very least like implement social institution or 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:17.800 at least concepts within social institution into organizing, right because obviously, um, 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.840 and I guess a kind of fewer number. But what 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:25.200 social institution tries to point out I guess, or tries 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:32.520 to develop within a movement, it's just awareness that the 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:37.120 people who are making these moves from organizing and whatnot, 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:44.520 that they don't relinquish their power to like other figures 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:51.359 or forces or parties or whatever the case may be. Right, Um, 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:54.720 Social institutions times in the belief that the oppressed but 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:58.440 the most revolutionary sector society and the seed of future 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:04.720 revolutionary transformations society lies already in these classes and social groupings. 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:09.400 So it doesn't mean socialization doesn't mean like acting within 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:16.000 single issue advocacy campaigns or you know, like trying to 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:21.200 take over people's existing struggles. It means getting involved in 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:25.240 daily fights and daily struggles people to better their own conditions. 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:29.200 It means, you know, connecting with workers, connecting with immigrants, 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:34.000 connecting across neighborhoods, working towards racial liberation, working within students 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:38.240 struggles and tenant struggles. As people are like part of 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:45.600 these struggles, they become conscious of their place in society, right, 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:48.680 And part of our rule is to try to develop 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:54.200 their consciousness. So as people are tempered and tested and recreated, 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:59.880 they see their position in the what we're looking for 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:05.640 in the pecking order. Right. They see that there are 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:07.880 forces that play that are keeping them down, their structures 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.040 play that are keeping them down, and they change from 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:16.560 just being like social classes to being active social forces. 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:22.880 So they're brought together by organic methods and by self 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.239 organized cohesion. What you notice of the popular movements, like 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:30.359 for example, Black Lives Matter, is that the unlike what 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:35.160 some conservatives might assume, the Black Lives Matter organization wasn't 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.040 the one like pulling the strings, you know, like the 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:43.320 official group wasn't there, you know, telling people okay, march here, 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:47.080 puting that right here, move that you know, it's like 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:53.800 the people themselves came together and you know, really expressed 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:59.320 the desire for change. And so really, as they become 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.639 self conscious actors, aware of their power, of their voice, 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.920 of their nemesis, which is the ruling elites that control 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:16.360 the social order, a specificitys try to keep that thrust. Right. 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.520 What a specificity argue is that essentially there's an anarchist 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:25.639 on the current two popular social movements that should be 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:32.160 preserved and maintained and cultivated. Right with popular movements, Um, 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:36.440 they're very quickly co opted by impositions of leadership or 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:42.240 by you know, academic elites or by political parties. But 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:48.240 specificity aren't there to try to make groups identify as anarchists, right, 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.800 They're there to just maintain that thrust, to be self 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:57.160 organized and to fight for their own interests because ultimately 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.960 that's our natural impulse as months. You know, it's really 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:07.439 the propaganda that tells us, you know, um, like you 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.280 have to go through these proper channels. You know, you 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:14.439 have to vote with your dollar or you know, food 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:18.080 for these politicians or whatever the case may be. Converse, 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.920 and all these different things call up your representatives. The 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.320 natural thrust of a person is not to like relinquished 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:27.920 control of themselves, you know, it's to try to maintain 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.480 that um and so a specifics trying to push against 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.719 the propaganda that keeps us from maintaining that, push against 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:49.399 the co optation that ships that from us. Soup. Do 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:54.120 any sort of automatic critiques of a specifies move come 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:58.359 to mind for y'all? I'm not sure about like critiques 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:00.359 per se. We need to think about it more, But 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:04.119 a few things that come to mind around so, like 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.439 you talked a bit about like the difference between like 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:12.520 left unity and creating like an anarchist unity, um, and 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:15.840 for people at home, I would like to maybe extrapolate 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.080 why those are different things. I know you have a 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.960 good video on left unity already, but like in terms 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.359 of trying to like, you know, if if one of 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:28.280 the goals being creating like an anarchist organization that kind 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.040 of unifies different anarchists, how that is a different type 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:35.639 of unity than just left unity in general. UM. I 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.399 think that might be a point of clarification. And then 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:40.760 the other thing I was wondering about is like how 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.719 does this intersect in terms of like individual goals versus 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:48.000 like group goals or like organizational goals and so like, 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.320 because like there's a there's a back and forth between 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.679 like personal autonomy and then you know these type of 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:59.840 social movements that kind of almost gained their own thrust. 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:07.399 Yeh right, right, Yes. To the point about the difference 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:13.960 between Left unity and anarchist unity, um, well, obviously artists 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:19.760 or soon fairly heterogeneous. Um, I think our general thrust 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:22.840 for self determination and autonomy and that kind of thing 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.919 is it brings us together. You know. The difference between 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:31.520 like say anarchist unity, where they're differently some I would 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:36.720 say key disagreements within the milieu and left unity is 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:41.960 that I feel there are some extremely incompatible factors that 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:47.800 prevent Left unity from being viable. Yeah, when there's a 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:55.600 thrust among significant segments, I mean really every non libertarian 0:21:55.760 --> 0:22:00.240 segment of you know, they couldn't get left to uh 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:06.920 funn our popular energy towards state institutions, whether it be 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:13.159 through insurrectionary social democracy or reformist social democracy in a 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:18.720 case of amounts and stock damage respectively. Um, I think 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:27.639 that that really keeps us from really working together on 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:33.320 anything more than small goals and small projects. I mean, 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:38.080 we've really seen the whole left unity idea of fall apart, 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:43.639 you know, through wars and through even just like what 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:46.960 should be discussions between people, you know, like the First 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:52.119 International literally split because of the differences between you know, 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:55.119 the so called left currents, you know, between the anarchists 0:22:55.160 --> 0:23:00.359 and the other socialists. So last unity is now something 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:02.800 that I even to achieve. I think most people know 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:06.359 that about me by now, um. But regard to like 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:09.320 anarchist unity, and of course the differences between an artists, 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:15.560 I think the general rusted to maintain the autonomy and 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:18.280 self determination of the people and of the social movements 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:23.240 via inserting ourselves in is what really clues us together. 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:27.000 And of course that alone, I don't know if that's 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:30.879 enough to maintain in a specificity organization, because you know, 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:38.719 like I noted, a specificitys try to um develop deeper 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:43.040 level you know, strategies and theoretical discussion and that kind 0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:45.800 of thing, And so with those sort of discussions, you 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:49.080 know you're gonna see a lot more of the distinctions 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:53.560 bearing out. But at the very least, UM, I think 0:23:53.640 --> 0:24:00.640 anarchists generally could benefit from a degree of at least 0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:03.840 unity in the sense of maintaining or soularity in the 0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:09.720 sense of maintaining the libertarian thrust of popular movements. I 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:12.520 asked the other thing that you had noted about the 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:17.479 sort of friction between individual goals and organizational goals, between 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:21.360 autonomy and sort of how social movements end up taking 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:27.080 on like an energy of their own. Um. To be 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:30.639 quite honest, I don't think I have like a fully 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:36.480 developed answer for that. Yeah, um, Because, on the one hand, 0:24:38.440 --> 0:24:42.439 a social movement that forgets that it is about, you know, 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:49.080 deliberation of individuals is you know, in my view of 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:54.040 social movement that's quickly going to and obtaining against the 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:58.520 people who are you know, fueling it. At the same time, 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:03.600 I interacting with like a lot of people what pretty 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:09.920 selfish or pretty egotistical or just argumentative for the sake 0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:14.680 of it. Sorry, So if you're gonna say something, yeah, 0:25:14.720 --> 0:25:16.479 I was just like, the thing that keeps popping up 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:18.760 into my head is, you know, one of the things 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:23.879 that gets misconstrued all the time is who's calling the shots. 0:25:23.960 --> 0:25:25.760 And I kind of feel like what you're saying is 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:32.119 everybody in a way, right, Yeah? Yeah, I think that like, 0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:38.040 which is good sometimes but not good other times. Obviously 0:25:38.720 --> 0:25:41.800 exactly because I think it's it's very easy to fall 0:25:41.840 --> 0:25:49.800 into this sort of um almost reactionary I like island 0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:54.600 mentality not island mentality is incribean islan mentality isn't fussiness 0:25:54.640 --> 0:25:58.520 and as an island around like autonomy and you know 0:25:58.560 --> 0:26:02.040 personal freedom, you know, like this renting idea that you 0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:05.679 know on step map property, you know that kind of 0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:08.720 thing just let people do whatever. It's kind of like 0:26:09.359 --> 0:26:13.719 most alarchrocaplist conception of what like freedom and autonomy is 0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:16.280 I think an important part of autonomy and you know 0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:22.840 freedom and yeah, like this project is you know, accountability 0:26:23.240 --> 0:26:29.080 and is you know, like consequences like social consequences and 0:26:29.119 --> 0:26:33.800 how your actions affect others. You know, like what you 0:26:33.840 --> 0:26:37.760 said he was to recognize is that we are not 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:44.000 in fact islands. You know, our actions or behavioral words 0:26:44.040 --> 0:26:46.359 affect other people. And so I think it's going to 0:26:46.400 --> 0:26:51.000 be a constant project to sort of balance um individual 0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:59.640 personalities and BROADERCT goals. But I mean, yeah, it's it's 0:26:59.680 --> 0:27:02.600 trick right, Like you know, we're you're talking about like 0:27:03.840 --> 0:27:08.240 some kind of you know, group organization to work together 0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:11.800 to kind of you know, think of achievable goals and 0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:16.600 create steps to get there um. And I feel among 0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:21.280 a lot of people who proudly declare themselves anarchists and 0:27:21.440 --> 0:27:23.800 at least like and they're extremely vocal. Like these are 0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:26.879 like people both like online and in person organizing that 0:27:26.920 --> 0:27:29.040 are very are very like vocal and try to very 0:27:29.119 --> 0:27:34.000 much like make their place known. We've seen trends away 0:27:34.000 --> 0:27:37.720 from this direction in terms of like rejecting the idea 0:27:38.119 --> 0:27:42.080 of goals and demands and just you know, like this 0:27:42.080 --> 0:27:45.560 this more insurrectionary kind of tendency of just making total 0:27:45.600 --> 0:27:49.639 destroy for the sake of it and committee, yeah, and 0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:51.280 and and and that. I mean, like I know that 0:27:51.320 --> 0:27:53.960 like platform is m is kind of like it's not 0:27:54.040 --> 0:27:58.280 like Antiens insurrectionary, but it's like it's it definitely critiques 0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:02.720 that type of instructionary rend um. So I'm thinking about, like, 0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:07.240 you know, this idea and like how with with with 0:28:07.280 --> 0:28:12.280 this kind of general you know, decentralized, no no demands, 0:28:12.280 --> 0:28:16.040 no goals kind of general kind of direction that like 0:28:16.200 --> 0:28:20.480 capital a anarchists are are doing. How like what's what's 0:28:20.520 --> 0:28:23.600 maybe some parts of a specific that we can actually 0:28:24.720 --> 0:28:27.480 take into account to be like hey maybe there's you know, 0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:30.359 like I I don't like, I don't like being called, 0:28:31.240 --> 0:28:35.479 like any adjective anarchist. I think it's silly. I like 0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:40.440 I like the parts, um, I think earlier this year 0:28:40.800 --> 0:28:42.760 or yeah, the last year, Like I just got to 0:28:42.760 --> 0:28:47.400 the point for you, I'm an anarchist, you know that's yeah, Yeah, 0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:49.640 I like the parton desert. It's like, I'm an anarchist 0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:52.920 of many adjectives. I'm not, I'm not I'm not always 0:28:52.960 --> 0:28:56.040 an insurrectionary, I'm not always a syndicalist. I'm not always 0:28:56.320 --> 0:28:59.280 you know, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Um. 0:28:59.320 --> 0:29:01.920 And I feel like that's would be really useful kind 0:29:01.960 --> 0:29:05.160 of thing for people to focus on more in terms of, yeah, 0:29:05.320 --> 0:29:07.320 it can be fun to make total destroying that it's 0:29:07.320 --> 0:29:10.280 a very base instinct, but it also would be great 0:29:10.320 --> 0:29:16.280 to like improve people's lives a little bit um and yeah, 0:29:16.320 --> 0:29:19.120 and there's like to to to kind of like dueling things. 0:29:19.520 --> 0:29:22.280 Um and in terms that's why I do really like 0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:23.880 the part of like this type of stuff that it's 0:29:23.880 --> 0:29:26.440 really appealing to me just because I kind of already 0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:28.040 work on this myself, so I'm like, oh, I'm I'm 0:29:28.040 --> 0:29:31.080 already doing this, but it's like the it is it 0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:34.040 is like the social the social insertion side of things, 0:29:34.440 --> 0:29:38.320 I think is something that would be a much a 0:29:38.400 --> 0:29:41.600