WEBVTT - Joyce Vance & Laura Gamboa 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.160 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:07.120 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:11.760 today's best minds and political reports. Elon will be departing 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:15.720 from DC soon. We'll see we have such a great 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:19.760 show for you today. Civil Discourse substack author and close 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:24.800 friend of mine Joyce Vance talks about constitutional checks and balances. 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:27.880 Then we'll talk to Professor. 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:31.960 Laura Gamboa about how to save a democracy and the 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:35.520 lessons from other countries authoritarian crisises. 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:36.760 But first the news. 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:40.839 So, Molly, I think we have pretty good news. I mean, 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:44.680 I'm pretty excited to see that Elon couldn't buy and 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:48.600 do his weird trickery that everybody believed won the twenty 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.239 twenty four election in Wisconsin last night. Since Dev's got 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:52.720 a big win. 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:58.400 Yes, so this was an interesting thing. You know again, Look, 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:03.400 the trump Ism does not only Trump can defy political gravity. 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:08.279 Everyone else has For whatever reason, it only works for Trump. 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.960 It was the most expensive judicial race ever, about one 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:16.520 hundred million dollars all in, Musk spent twenty five million. 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:18.800 I bet it's actually more than that. He has this 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:23.520 America pack. But then all of the other Republican senators, 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:28.959 so Republican senators, Republican donors, Elon Musk, Diana Hendrix, the 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:33.800 U lines, Soros, Pritzker and Ricketts, you know, all the 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:36.000 sort of people you would expect Rita Hoffman. 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:39.600 But the right definitely overspent the left. 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.479 With the right wing, saytes man Timothy Bellen, right. 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:46.039 And I think it's important to remember why this is important. 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:48.960 First of all, it's good news because it means that 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.480 our democracy, you know that you can't there's not just 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:55.600 a straight line between how much you spend and what happens. 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:58.000 That is good news. That's good news for any number 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:02.080 of reasons. It means that voters still have autonomy. It 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.080 means that they you know, you can advertise to them, 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:06.560 but at the end of the day, they're going to 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.400 do what they're going to do. And I think what 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.079 is And you know, the other thing that Elon did, 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.760 which was really sketchy, was he did these you know, 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:17.720 he paid people, right, voters who signed the petition got 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.880 one hundred dollars and then the key handed out million 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.840 dollar checks for recruiting captains. None of that worked. So 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.840 that's good news. That's good news for democracy. It's good 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.840 news because you know, look, there's a straight line between 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:35.360 Citizens United over durning Citizens United and the cluster fuck 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:38.480 we find ourselves in today. And again, I think it's 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.000 important to remember, like a lot of the stump Trump 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:45.120 is doing is really unpopular. So going in and slashing 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.720 the federal government, going in and making it so that 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.760 you can't get help for Social Security on the phone, 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:57.120 these are things that are actually quite unpopular, and we're 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:01.480 now seeing that voters don't like it and they're swinging 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:07.280 against it. And every election on Tuesday swung to the left. 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.400 And that's a good sign for any number of reasons, 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.720 and especially it's a good sign because, look, Trump is 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:18.600 a Republican, but Trump is also an authoritarian, and that 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:22.360 means he is trying to consolidate power. He is trying 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.840 to do all the things Orbond died in Hungary. 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:26.840 And to know that it's. 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.360 Not politically popular, and so that means that Republican House 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.240 members who are up for election in twenty six, and 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.560 people like Tom Tillis, right, the Senator from North Carolina 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:38.920 who's also up for reelection in twenty six, they're not 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:43.640 going to necessarily give Trump the blank check that he wants, 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:48.000 or if they are. Remember early on in this administration, 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:51.280 Trump had won the popular vote and he had pretty 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:56.280 good for him, still bad for everyone. Normal popularity numbers. 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.440 Now those numbers are you know, were what eight nine 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.960 weeks into this ten weeks into this presidency, and every 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.640 sort of two weeks the number goes down by about 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.480 two one and a half two points. So by the 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:10.960 time we're one hundred days into this thing, the guy 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.360 will be back in the high thirties. But the point 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.800 is this is good because Republicans, acting in their own 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.600 self interest, will at least do some kind of check 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.240 on Trump. They don't want to lose the House. And 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.479 I think we heard Musk say if Republicans lose the House, 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:32.719 then Democrats can impeage, Democrats can run checks on Trump's power. 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:34.960 Musk was saying that like that was a bad thing. 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.000 But I think a lot of voters actually don't think 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:38.760 that's a bad thing. 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:41.800 I agree. I think a lot of voters wouldn't think 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.200 it's bad if the House goes home but does nothing. 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.240 But I still find it quite disturbing since Mike Johnson 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.599 just canceled votes after the Republicans rebelled against him. 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:54.280 Yeah, look, so this is fascinating in the fact that 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.640 it's just proof of my theory being correct. 0:04:57.800 --> 0:04:59.760 So I consider that to be fascinating. 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.400 Mike Johnson cannot do math, and we have seen this 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.520 again and again and again. The one time Mike Johnson 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.760 was able to do math was for the cr that's 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.800 a continuing resolution that passed last week. 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:13.480 Or two weeks ago. 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.600 It got out of the House and literally no one 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:18.880 thought it would and then it got to the Senate 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.599 and Democrats couldn't figure out what to do, and it 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:24.960 was a disaster and it made everyone look bad. Now, 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:31.039 this bill, bipartisan bill for women voting after having children. 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:35.400 Johnson was absolutely allergic to it. But because he cannot 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.400 he fundamentally cannot do math, he was not able to 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.360 whip against it. Now he is the Speaker of the House, 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.440 he should not lose on a bipartisan bill. First of all, 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:50.040 I mean, this is like, I wonder if what the 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:53.200 president here is for this. I mean, it just sort 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.520 of shocks me. I think there's probably very little president 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:00.520 for this. So nine Republicans joined all the Democrats. Johnson 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:04.479 lost right to to two to two oh six. 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:04.880 Okay. 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:09.839 He then freaked out. He was supposed to lead voting 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.560 on this Save Act. The Save Act would have made 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:14.920 it very hard to vote. It would have made it 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.840 so if you changed your name as a woman. And 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:22.280 because nobody wants women voting because they're you know, they 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:25.200 don't know their place, that it would have made it 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.760 harder for women to vote. But because the Speaker of 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.120 the House, Mike Johnson, was so upset, he just canceled 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:35.360 all the voting for the week and I guess went 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:36.440 home to pray about it. 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.479 You know, this sounds to be like the temperamental thing 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.600 people make a cliche of women being like to me, Molly. 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.919 He cannot stand losing, so he should learn how to count. 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.479 And you know Representative Anna Paulina Luna, who is, by 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:58.039 the way, nobody is idea of a woke leftist, but 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.320 she wanted to be able to volt remotely right after 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:04.599 having a baby. I mean, this is really the bare 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.720 minimum that these people can do. And she did it 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.800 as a discharge position petition. I mean, it is really 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:15.160 quite a fuck up for Johnson. It makes them look 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:17.640 weak and it makes them look like you can't do math. 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.560 And he said that it was unconstitutional. 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:22.960 By the way, everything they don't like is unconstitutional and 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.920 it could open up Pandora's box, Yes, a Pandora's box 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.680 of like women working. So good to see this is 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.080 like we can file this under one of the worst 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:34.880 people you know getting. 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:35.840 You know schooled. 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.560 And by the way, it's not like these people are 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.600 you know, the two people who came out against this bill, 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:44.480 against Mike Johnson. 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:46.480 These are all like real right wingers. 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:50.920 So Max Miller, you'll remember, has had any number of 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:56.440 problems because remember there was some allegations of domestic violence, 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.400 but his statement was, I had a baby girl just 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.360 over a year go. In the first weeks of her life, 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.880 there were some complications. I can't imagine a mother who 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:05.680 has spent nine months going through the ring are being 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.320 told you can't be with your infant only because you 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:11.000 are one of the four hundred and thirty five people. 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.720 We are pro life, I mean ish pro family, not really. 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.560 As a new dad, I just couldn't support it. Mike Lawler, 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.640 who is you'll remember, running for governor. He's not going 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:23.520 to win, but he's trying to present himself as not 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.360 a complete psycho, as a father of two young children, 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.320 including a daughter born eight days before election, day. This 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:34.920 is a common sense solution. Looks learn math, Mike Johnson, learn. 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:41.679 Math, Somali, Cory Booker, iron Man, just bladder control standing. 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:44.880 You know, I know he played college football, was very good, 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:48.360 so you know, he's a varied shape guy. But everybody's like, 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:50.760 how did he do it? But what I'm wondering is 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:54.840 how did this one action get so many Democrats to 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.600 do the right things and start coming up the works. 0:08:57.880 --> 0:08:59.720 There are a lot of people who are mat at 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.680 Corey Booker for any number of things and want to 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.600 criticize this as performative. But you're going to hear an 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:10.959 interview in this episode with Laura Gamboa who talks about 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:15.480 how important it is when you're fighting authoritarianism for an 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:19.600 opposition party to oppose, and that is what Booker is 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.160 doing here. He's posing Another important part of it is 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:27.400 he broke strom Thurman's record for a philibuster. Now, our 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.800 philibuster is bad, I mean, is the way that the 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:34.640 Senate works anti democratic? We can argue that all day long, 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:38.000 and perhaps it is. But the point here is that 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.679 what Corey Booker did was he said none of this 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.880 is normal, and what we need from democratic representatives from 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.480 senators and congress people, is we really need them to 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.880 act in a way that makes clear what we all 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.480 see with our own eyes, which is the richest man 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.439 in the world taking a chainsaw to the federal government 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:04.040 is not normal. And this is really, I think, an 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:09.120 important point. So I think it's good interesting thing that 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.120 Corey Booker said, which I think is really important to 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.559 be candid Strom Thurman's record always kind of just really 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.600 irked me. That would be the longest speech, longest speech 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:21.120 on our great Senate floor, was someone trying to stop 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.960 people like me from being in the Senate. And look, 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:28.640 I always think that the worst thing, the biggest mistake 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:32.400 we made in twenty sixteen was saying that America was 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:36.360 better than trump Ism. And the reality is we're not right. 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:38.880 We are a country that created Jim Crow. We are 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:42.720 exactly this. We are divided, and we are capable of 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:46.200 some really bad stuff. I think that it's really important 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:50.640 that Booker talked about what the original sin of America is. 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:54.600 And again, you know Thurman was he set this record 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:58.360 philibustering against the Civil Rights Act of nineteen fifty seven. 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.839 Now there's a new record, and it's by someone who 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.400 is a black senator from the state of New Jersey. 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.520 And I think that is exciting, and I think that. 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.120 That is the kind of thing that rallies people and 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:14.200 gets some serious about protecting armorms and institutions. So I 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:17.160 was glad to see that. Good and good for Corey Booker, 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:18.720 and millions of people watched it. 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:22.200 More importantly, Yes, I thought it was really interesting too 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.440 that a lot of senators put holds on different judges 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:28.840 and really started to come up the works like we've 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.079 been really pressing for on this podcast. 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:36.760 Yeah, good for them. 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.040 Joyce Vance is the author of the Substack Civil Discourse 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:42.600 and co host of the podcast Sisters in. 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:46.880 Law Welcome to Fast Politics. I think of you as 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.079 my north star, Joyce Vance. 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.360 But I'm your south star because I'm in the Deep South. 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:55.600 I mean, can I really be a north star down here? 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.160 That's right, good point, You're my southern star. 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:03.880 Just legal Michigan's I want you to sort of outline 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.480 the top lines here. It seems to me like Trump 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.319 keeps just like Trump one point zero, losing in the courts. 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.080 So can you give us a sort of summation of that. 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.200 Yeah, So, look, Molly, here's the way that I view 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.200 it donald Trump is trying to seize power that the 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:24.480 Constitution does not allocate to him, power that is specifically 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.600 forbidden to him, like, for instance, the power of the 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.959 purse that belongs to Congress. Every time he does one 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:33.679 of these things, whether it's trying to change the Constitution 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.840 with the stroke of a pen and write birthright citizenship 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:41.120 out of the Constitution, or most recently, whether he's trying 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.280 to tell the states who have the power to set 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:46.600 the terms of their own elections, what the rules for 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.400 those elections are. Lawyers are going to court, and lawyers 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.880 are winning in court because Donald Trump is trying to 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.199 collect power that the founding fathers did not want to 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:00.800 have fallen into his hands. They understood that president who 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.960 was too powerful could become a tyrant. And that's what 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.800 our three branches of government checks and balances constitutional system. 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:11.960 That's the entire premise that it's set up around preventing tyranny. 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:17.120 So this has sort of gotten the ire of one 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:20.280 Elon mush and I want you to talk to us 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.720 about what that looks like. He's sort of attacking the judiciary, 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.400 hoping to set the you know, he said he would 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.840 donate to people who were for judicial impeachment. Can you 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:34.600 talk to us about how unusual judicial impeachment is and 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.040 how as a remedy. I really think Republicans are going 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:39.600 to have a hard time getting that going. 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:43.960 Yeah, an impossible time, right, because impeachment is not the 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.839 remedy for a judge's decision that you don't like. As 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:51.240 the Chief Justice most recently said, and you know John 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.920 Robert's issuing of public statement is is rare, only the 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:56.800 second time that he's done it, both times directed at 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.640 Donald Trump. The remedy if you don't like a decision 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.160 that a strict judge makes is to appeal it. That's 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.679 why we have courts of appeals and a Supreme Court. 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:08.080 We don't impeach judges even if we think they've made 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.600 the wrong decision. And look, even if you can get 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.400 articles of impeachment in the House, you're not gonna get 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:14.640 a conviction in the Senate. 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:19.800 Judicial impeachment is super unusual too, Like it hasn't happened 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.320 since since the eighteen hundreds. I mean, Nick, really not 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.800 a thing that's gonna work for them in any way, 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:26.800 shape or for right. 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:31.280 Well, there actually have been some more modern judicial impeachments, 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:35.120 but they've involved, for instance, District Judge Alsey Hastings, who 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:40.280 is impeached over alleged criminal conduct. It's extraordinarily rare, so 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:42.920 rare that, although I know that there are one or 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.480 two more, I can't give you even off the top 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.000 of my head names of people who were involved. 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:48.240 Right. 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.760 That one sticks with me. It's one of the more 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.720 recent ones. I think that there might be one in Louisiana. 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.680 It just is not something that happens because judges don't 0:14:57.920 --> 0:14:59.800 buy and large tend to commit crimes. 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.120 So let's talk about what it sort of looks like 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:07.280 right now. A lot of these dose quote unquote cost 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:11.600 cutting measures are getting rejected in the courts. We're seeing 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:15.280 they're being forced to reinstate people they fired, they're being 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.560 forced to sort of undo all of these broadcuts. Can 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.600 you explain to us how and we're seeing a real 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.239 conflict between Trump and the judiciary. 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:25.120 The one I'm. 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:28.680 Thinking of the most is this these deportations. How long 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:32.080 can Trump World go against the forts before we start 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:36.000 really getting into the meat of a constitutional crisis. 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.040 Well, look, I mean, we're past talking about whether or 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.480 not we're in a constitutional crisis. When you have a 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:45.520 presidency that's engaging in the sort of behavior that we're seeing, 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.160 we are already there, right, we have a president who's 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.400 trying to assume the power of one, possibly two of 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.520 the other branches of government. And the weird thing about 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.640 living through a constitutional crisis I've been writing about this 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.680 a lot lately, is it doesn't really feel all that different. Right. 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.960 Nobody's out in the streets tearing up the constitution and 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:08.840 so there's no real trigger, which is why we're still 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.920 asking the question, right, is it a constitutional crisis yet? 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.400 But let me tell you it is. And what we're 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.280 increasingly seeing is that it will be up to the 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.760 courts to fashion a remedy for a lawless president. Courts 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.720 don't have armies, they can't send folks out to enforce 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:28.800 their orders. Court orders are enforceable because as Americans we 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:32.480 accept the power of the judicial branch, and although sometimes 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:34.760 people push back a little bit, there is of course 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:38.960 an appellate process. Sometimes judges have to issue orders directing 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.400 parties to engage in better compliance with their orders than 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.440 they have been. There has never been a moment in 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:49.800 our history of this lawlessness where there's been open speculation 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:54.480 that a president might simply ignore the Supreme Court. If 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:56.400 that happens, we're in the soup, right. 0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:00.200 Right, And that's a real question for sort of what 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:00.840 we're seeing. 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:03.080 I mean, I think a lot of Trump World wants 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.480 to kick things up to the Supreme Court in the 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:09.800 hopes that the Supreme Court will somehow grant him everything 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:10.760 he wants in life. 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:12.560 Do you think that's realistic? 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.920 Well, look, we had the Attorney General saying that last week. 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:18.320 You know, she was talking about the cases and losses 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:21.159 in lower courts, and she spoke about getting to the 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.000 Supreme Court in fond terms, almost as though they were 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.399 a captive of the presidency. You and I both noted 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.960 that moment following Trump's not State of the Union, but 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:34.399 speech to the Joint Houses of Congress in session. We 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.680 noted that really painful moment at the end where Trump 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.960 walks down the line of Supreme Court justices shaking their hands. Thanks, 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.439 Elena Kagan tells the Chief Justice. Thanks, I won't forget 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:47.359 what you've done, you know, I mean, just like this 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:51.320 abominable moment that should have never happened, where Trump tried 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.879 to show the court that they were, in essence a 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.920 part of his government, not an independent branch. I don't 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:59.359 think that went down super well. I think that we 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:01.919 will see I'm long past the point of hoping for 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.320 nine zero decisions from the Supreme Court, but I think 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.760 we will see seven to two decisions defining the power 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.200 that a president can exercise and the power that a 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:11.760 president cannot exercise. 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.040 Speaking of that, they're setting up a bunch of stuff 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:17.400 to go to the Supreme Court. We saw I think 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:22.280 a really major moment when the Supreme Court rejected Sullivan 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.439 Vinior Times. Do you think that was a major moment 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.720 that they decided not to take it on the docket. 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.240 I feel like it was. And can you talk about 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:31.240 why that's important? 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.160 You bet. I'm one hundred percent in agreement with you. 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.040 You know, the Supreme Court rejected a case that had 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.680 been widely viewed as an opportunity for them to overturn 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.440 the precedent in New York Times versus Sullivan, an Alabama 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:46.920 case near and dear to my heart because I started 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.320 the practice of law doing a lot of defamation work, 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.920 and what Times versus Sullivan does. I think we all 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.120 know this at this point right. It imposes a very 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.800 high burden on someone who wants to sue for death 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.959 if they're a public figure, in order to recover, they 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:07.199 have to prove that they were defamed by someone who 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:11.920 showed actual malice, reckless disregard for the truth or falsity 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.439 of the statements that they were making. And there's been 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.760 a lot of suggestion that that standard is too difficult 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.800 and public figures can't recover, and so we need to 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:24.520 toss New York Times versus Sullivan out the window. Clarence 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:28.760 Thomas has adopted that approach in a concurrence in one case, 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.159 and there's been some sense that Justice Gorsich might be 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.680 on board too. He also had made a speech, I 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.480 think where he had sort of made those kind of comments. 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:38.679 But the full Court did not take this case. It 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:40.879 takes four votes for the Supreme Court to hear a 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:44.440 case oncert Those four votes weren't there. This is why 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.080 it matters Hungary. One of the first things that Orbond 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:51.639 did in Hungary was he made it easier to sue 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:54.679 the press for comments that they made about him, in 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.119 an effort to shut them down, in an effort to 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.000 make them afraid to say it, to make even modern 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:04.680 commentary out of fear that they would have these incredibly large, 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:09.200 damaging judicial judgments imposed against them. And you know this 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:12.840 was no doubt a similar move. I mean, the free press, 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.159 in many ways is what stands between you and me 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.440 and Tyranny Molly, and so protecting the press at all 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.840 costs is imperative. Apparently the Supreme Court, or at least 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.840 enough justices, weren't interested in helping Donald Trump erode that either. 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.359 Yeah, and you know, I want to add an interesting 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:33.720 thing about this is that the Sullivan New York Times case, 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:37.280 this case that was brought up, was actually brought up 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:41.040 by one of Trump's mega donners, Steve when Right. 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:44.080 So, yeah, this challenge that Wynn brought trying to say 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.560 that he could not be sued, it very much had 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:49.800 the look of this is what litigants do. The lawyers 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:53.000 among your listeners will know this. When there's precedent that 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:56.520 the lawyers don't like, or that really not the lawyers 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:59.359 but parties that they represent don't like, there will be 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.600 an effort to seed test cases across the country to 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.040 try to get rulings that can then be appealed to 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.080 the Supreme Court. And lawyers like to say bad facts 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.960 make bad law. Good facts make good law. So you're 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:13.600 very careful about the facts in the case that you're 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:15.600 trying to get up to the Supreme Court. You want 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:17.800 good facts so that you can make good law, or 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.360 at least good law for your client. And so this 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:22.960 case very much had the flavor of something that was 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:25.359 going to be used to argue that the standard in 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:29.840 Times versus Sullivan was far too high, that parties couldn't 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:32.280 meet it, and so it needed to be reversed, and 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:35.119 of course that ploy failed. I don't think we have 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:38.520 to look much further than the Egene Carroll case to 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:42.000 see why this matters, right, I mean, Trump would have 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:44.200 liked to win in that lawsuit, and he did not. 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:47.280 Yeah, I have to tell you, I always like, I 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:50.959 find you to be so soothing and also just a 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:53.960 wonderful person and also such a smart layer. But it 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:56.520 sounds like I'm telling you we're done, but we're not done. 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:58.240 But I just needed to tell you that right. 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.000 Now before you hit me. Yeah. 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:02.600 Now, Well I need to tell you that because whenever 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:05.320 I'm talking to you, I feel a little better. And 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:08.120 I think it's so important right now with all of us, 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.200 you know, the people in this country who care about democracy. 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:14.919 We are very stressed out, and for good reason. And 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:17.879 when you talk about Hungary, I would love you to 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:21.280 talk about the ways in which it feels like everything 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:24.120 matters in order to not slide into autocracy. 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:25.800 But I want you to. 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:28.800 Talk about a little bit about how we really there 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:32.040 are good things happening despite all of the sort of 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.000 carnage that this administration is creating. 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:37.880 Yeah, well, you know, I mean, there are good things happening, 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:40.600 and it's at the risk of being a little bit silly. 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:43.639 I have this breakfast club that meets every Wednesday morning. 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:47.320 It's met just forever, for decades. It's a small group 0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:52.639 of women, different backgrounds, doctors, lawyers, business people, educators, retired people, 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:56.960 all different political stripes, just interested in getting together and 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:00.240 learning and spending time with women who are interested in 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:02.600 learning more about the world around them. I guess if 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:04.879 we had a theme, it would be that. And I 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:08.640 infrequently go these days because my Wednesday mornings are sort 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:11.399 of bad. But I was able to go last week, 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:15.160 and I was reminded that that's what democracy looks like, right, 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:19.040 small groups of Americans getting together. And I was fascinated 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:23.639 that this group that's so diverse, is completely united around 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:26.879 the notion that democracy has to survive. And so I 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:28.760 think this is what we all need to do. We 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:31.159 need to hug the people around us. We need to 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:34.520 spend some time talking about what matters. We don't live 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:37.880 in an era where democracy gets fought for on battlefield 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:40.639 in Europe. We live in this moment where we're fighting 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:43.399 for democracy in our living rooms, in the stands at 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:47.080 football games, across the counter at the grocery store. And 0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:49.199 it's a little bit hard to get used to that 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:51.760 and to think that you're not being dramatic when you 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:54.639 say things like that. But the reality is that the 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:57.520 fight for democracy is happening at home, and it's happening 0:23:57.600 --> 0:23:58.119 right now. 0:23:58.440 --> 0:23:58.720 Yeah. 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:02.720 And I think really great example is this race for 0:24:02.840 --> 0:24:07.440 Supreme Court in It was the most expensive judicial race ever, 0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:12.000 right this Wisconsin Supreme Court race. I'm wondering if you 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:14.719 so this is something that is sort of a factor 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:17.080 of modern life, is that we have now and some 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:19.440 states have it in some states don't. We have these 0:24:19.480 --> 0:24:25.280 sort of partisan judiciary elections. So I'm wondering if you 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:27.920 can sort of speak to us about sort of how 0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:31.040 this came to be and what it means to have 0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:36.080 partisan judicial elections, because we also don't have partisan judicial 0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:37.280 elections in some places. 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:38.920 We have judges who are appointed. 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:43.080 So I'm hoping this was one hundred million dollar race 0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:45.800 for this seat, and I'm hoping you could sort of 0:24:45.840 --> 0:24:46.479 talk about it. 0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:50.159 Yes, So look, this isn't an eternal problem. How do 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:51.360 we pick our judges? 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:51.600 Right? 0:24:51.640 --> 0:24:54.720 We expect our judges to be objective. We want them 0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:58.520 to be above party politics and personal grievances. How do 0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:01.680 we get them there? And there two primary ways. One 0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:05.000 is that they get appointed by somebody. That's the federal system. 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:07.439 The other is that they get elected by the people. 0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:10.159 That's what a number of states have. And you know, 0:25:10.240 --> 0:25:13.159 there are problems both ways. Right to get appointed to 0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:16.680 be a federal judge, depending on the administration, you have 0:25:16.760 --> 0:25:18.680 to be more or less in line with what they 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:21.320 think their long term policy goals are to get a seat. 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:24.719 So there's that to get elected, and particularly states are 0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:27.000 really different about how they do this. In some states, 0:25:27.080 --> 0:25:29.119 mine is one of them. Judges just run for re 0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:32.520 election every six years. In other states, once you're in 0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:36.120 there's this sort of luke thumbs up, thumbs down vote 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:39.040 where you only get booted out of office if the 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:41.720 people think that you've really screwed something up, and so 0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:46.000 elections to have their problems. You know, sometimes you feel like, 0:25:46.119 --> 0:25:49.160 especially now that we live in this era where political 0:25:49.200 --> 0:25:53.520 money can be injected into races for judges, you sort 0:25:53.520 --> 0:25:55.719 of feel like the judges should take the bench with 0:25:55.840 --> 0:25:59.679 patches on their robes displaying their loyalty right to the 0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:04.040 big corporate donors that put them there. I think what 0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:07.040 you gotta do is you've got to hope that at 0:26:07.080 --> 0:26:11.080 some level you are selecting people of honor and integrity 0:26:11.080 --> 0:26:14.600 who understand the mission, and regardless of how they get 0:26:14.640 --> 0:26:18.800 on the bench, they will fulfill their duty to make 0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:21.280 decisions in their cases based on the facts and the law. 0:26:21.880 --> 0:26:25.640 That happens in a surprising number of cases every day, 0:26:25.840 --> 0:26:28.560 all across the country. But it's not a perfect system. 0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:30.520 I don't think we should pretend it is. It's the 0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:32.360 best way we've got to pick judges. 0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:36.119 We have definitely seen that happen, And a great example 0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:40.159 I feel like is that this Trump administration has lost 0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:46.480 with judges from five different administrations, right Republican judges, Democratic judges, 0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:51.120 Bush judges, Obama judges. Everyone has said that a lot 0:26:51.160 --> 0:26:53.000 of this stuff Trump has tried to do as illegal. 0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:55.640 I have one last question for you, which is about 0:26:55.840 --> 0:26:58.760 Trump did this executive order which is meant to mass 0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:01.240 with elections socrats are suing him. 0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:03.240 Talk to me about sort. 0:27:03.080 --> 0:27:06.080 Of what this means, how this works, and also ourn't 0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:09.399 executive orders sort of toothless ultimately. 0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:10.040 But talk about it. 0:27:10.359 --> 0:27:15.080 Executive orders are powerful to the extent that they're ordering 0:27:15.160 --> 0:27:18.760 people in the executive branch to do something. And so 0:27:18.880 --> 0:27:21.480 when you write an executive order, I think Trump is 0:27:21.560 --> 0:27:24.840 particularly good at this. You tool it so that you're 0:27:24.880 --> 0:27:28.520 directing people that you have control over to do something. 0:27:29.080 --> 0:27:33.119 Executive orders don't have any force beyond maybe being a 0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:36.399 bully pulpit if you're, for instance, directing the states to 0:27:36.440 --> 0:27:38.600 do something. And so, to cut to the chase Molly, 0:27:38.760 --> 0:27:42.439 what Trump does in this executive order on voting is 0:27:42.600 --> 0:27:45.160 he tells states and by the way, if you don't 0:27:45.200 --> 0:27:48.680 do my bidding, no more federal funding for your elections. 0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:51.919 And that will be catastrophic in some places. You know, 0:27:52.280 --> 0:27:54.560 we don't have one national election. We don't even have 0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:57.760 fifty state elections. We have a series of elections being 0:27:57.800 --> 0:28:02.040 held across the country. Thousands of them local elections all 0:28:02.119 --> 0:28:04.320 across the country, and some of the counties that are 0:28:04.400 --> 0:28:08.840 running elections are largely dependent. The federal funding that they 0:28:08.880 --> 0:28:12.359 get is essential, particularly if they're going to take advantage 0:28:12.400 --> 0:28:16.400 of modern technology and keep it secure. So that's what 0:28:16.440 --> 0:28:18.960 Trump thinks he has the force to do. There are 0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:22.200 a couple of things going on in this executive order. 0:28:22.400 --> 0:28:24.760 One of course, is this demand that no one can 0:28:24.840 --> 0:28:29.240 register to vote unless they can prove their citizenship. And 0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:32.840 that's really sort of crazy what happens, And this is 0:28:32.880 --> 0:28:35.720 the long term theme. Right Republicans raise a lot of 0:28:35.760 --> 0:28:39.719 noise and dust claiming that there's voter fraud infecting our elections, 0:28:39.880 --> 0:28:43.400 and the reality is that that's not true. People who 0:28:43.400 --> 0:28:46.920 have looked at this and studied this, even Republican states 0:28:46.920 --> 0:28:49.600 that have tried to find evidence of people who aren't 0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:53.720 citizens voting in our elections come up largely empty handed. 0:28:54.000 --> 0:28:57.880 There's no evidence that voter fraud is impacting the outcome 0:28:58.080 --> 0:29:01.600 of elections. And the problem is that they then use 0:29:01.640 --> 0:29:05.360 those baseless claims of voter fraud to engage in voter suppression, 0:29:05.400 --> 0:29:07.920 to keep people who are entitled to vote from voting. 0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:11.840 That's what's happening here because if you don't have a passport, 0:29:12.200 --> 0:29:14.680 it can be really hard to prove that you're a citizen. 0:29:15.080 --> 0:29:18.040 And you know who has passports. It's people like you 0:29:18.120 --> 0:29:20.760 and me. It's people who are upper middle class people 0:29:20.800 --> 0:29:24.680 who are doing okay. And a move like this disenfranchises 0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:27.760 people who are older. A lot of elderly people, for instance, 0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:30.160 may have been born at home and don't have easy 0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:33.200 access to birth certificates, or they've lost the papers that 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:37.080 they need in moves. It hurts black people in the South, 0:29:37.240 --> 0:29:40.880 and these voter suppression measures are always directed at keeping 0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:43.719 black voters from voting because Republicans fear that they will 0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:46.880 vote democratic. This is just more of that same and 0:29:46.920 --> 0:29:50.200 it's just really offensive to democracy. And I think something 0:29:50.600 --> 0:29:53.280 that we don't do because we've lived with eight years 0:29:53.280 --> 0:29:56.680 of outrage and we no longer have the capacity really 0:29:56.720 --> 0:30:00.600 to get super outraged about any one individual of this 0:30:00.880 --> 0:30:04.320 EO that is an effort to suppress the vote is outrageous. 0:30:04.320 --> 0:30:07.120 It's the dying gasp of a lame duck president who 0:30:07.120 --> 0:30:09.920 wants to try to have a legacy, and that legacy 0:30:10.080 --> 0:30:12.560 is taking away democracy from Americans. 0:30:12.840 --> 0:30:14.680 Thank you, Joyce Fance. 0:30:15.040 --> 0:30:17.080 Thanks for having me, Molly. It's always good to be 0:30:17.160 --> 0:30:17.440 with you. 0:30:20.240 --> 0:30:24.080 Laura Damboa, it's a professor at the University of Notre Dame. 0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:27.480 Welcome to Fast Politics, Laura, thank you so much for 0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:28.000 the invite. 0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:28.400 Mollie. 0:30:28.600 --> 0:30:31.600 I want you to talk about this article you wrote 0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:34.640 in Foreign Affairs called how to Save a Democracy, But 0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:37.400 first I want you to tell us a little bit 0:30:37.600 --> 0:30:42.080 about your field of study so that we can understand 0:30:42.240 --> 0:30:45.640 exactly why you are the person to make this case. 0:30:46.120 --> 0:30:50.560 I study democratic backslighting. I've been studying it for more 0:30:50.600 --> 0:30:55.000 than ten years. I particularly focus on what all positions 0:30:55.080 --> 0:30:58.400 can do to stop what I call potential autocrats. These 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:02.680 are presidents or executive that are willing to undermine democratic 0:31:02.680 --> 0:31:05.360 institutions in order to get what they want, and so 0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:08.920 what I work on is what oppositions can do to 0:31:08.960 --> 0:31:11.800 stop them. I wrote a book that was published in 0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:15.600 twenty twenty two called Resisting Backsliding Opposition Strategies against the 0:31:15.600 --> 0:31:19.959 Erosion of Democracy, in which I discussed how the strategies 0:31:20.040 --> 0:31:24.360 used by the opposition in Venezuela against Douguchavis failed, while 0:31:24.480 --> 0:31:27.520 the opposition the strategy is used by the opposition in 0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:33.280 Colombia against al Var u Riwe succeeded in stopping alvar 0:31:33.400 --> 0:31:37.080 Drive from undermining democracy, pretty much stopping him from staying 0:31:37.080 --> 0:31:38.920 in power after his second term. 0:31:39.240 --> 0:31:42.240 So you really know what you're talking about. 0:31:42.280 --> 0:31:45.680 You have an example here, you've studied where where stopping 0:31:45.720 --> 0:31:47.920 autocracy has worked and where it hasn't worked. 0:31:48.120 --> 0:31:49.960 So first explain. 0:31:49.600 --> 0:31:54.120 To us why Donald Trump is an aspiring autocraft. 0:31:54.120 --> 0:31:55.640 What are the symptoms? 0:31:57.040 --> 0:32:02.440 So there are plenty symptoms. Autocrats or potential autocrats often 0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:06.560 come to power with an anti systemic discourse that attacks 0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:11.520 democratic institutions. It attacks Congress, it attacks the courts, it 0:32:11.600 --> 0:32:15.880 attacks opponents. It just takes away legitimacy from opponents. It 0:32:16.120 --> 0:32:20.800 supports or endorses violence against those that disagree with him. 0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:24.520 That is kind of discoursively. But more importantly, I think 0:32:24.760 --> 0:32:28.320 that because Donald trump property was present for four years, 0:32:28.560 --> 0:32:31.240 we had a pretty good idea of how authoritarian he 0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:34.840 could be. He pretty much broke the cardinal rule of 0:32:35.000 --> 0:32:37.240 the Marcusies, which is there is an election and you 0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:38.240 respect the result. 0:32:38.560 --> 0:32:40.160 And he did it. There was an. 0:32:40.000 --> 0:32:44.000 Election, he lost that election, and then he mobilized a 0:32:44.040 --> 0:32:48.479 group of people to attack the capital, to change the outcome, 0:32:48.480 --> 0:32:51.120 to to fail to certify the election, and he has 0:32:51.200 --> 0:32:54.840 refused to acknowledge the result of those elections ever since 0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:59.880 now as present, he has behaved. What we're seeing in 0:32:59.880 --> 0:33:02.360 the you as the closest example that I've seen is Guatemala. 0:33:02.400 --> 0:33:07.560 What you have is an elite coalition that seeks to 0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:12.320 undermine the state, pretty much carve away in this case 0:33:12.360 --> 0:33:17.080 of federal bureaucracy, in order to promote corruption and impunity. 0:33:17.480 --> 0:33:20.320 That's what we have seen in the past two months now. 0:33:20.400 --> 0:33:24.360 The problem with that is that when you do that, then, 0:33:24.840 --> 0:33:26.600 so first of all, is the way it has been 0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:31.800 done is done by violating or defying or ignoring the law. 0:33:32.480 --> 0:33:33.400 It has been done. 0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:38.320 In the mesifiic scores that attacks the courts, and very importantly, 0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:43.640 it has also been done with a discourse that pretty 0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:47.760 much claims that only those who support him are entitled 0:33:47.840 --> 0:33:49.680 to the rights that are afforded to all of us 0:33:50.000 --> 0:33:50.920 by the Constitution. 0:33:51.280 --> 0:33:54.000 And we're seeing that with the disappearing grad students. We're 0:33:54.040 --> 0:33:58.920 saying that with the fight with the sixty minutes in review, right, 0:33:59.120 --> 0:34:02.160 the idea that if you're not towing the party line, 0:34:02.240 --> 0:34:05.280 you're lying or you're doing something illegal. So the first 0:34:05.400 --> 0:34:11.400 part of this story of this idea of pushback against autocracy. 0:34:12.080 --> 0:34:15.520 It begins with don't throw away your shot. So explain 0:34:15.600 --> 0:34:19.840 to us what that means. And I think even more important, 0:34:20.360 --> 0:34:22.640 I think I just want to read one line because 0:34:22.680 --> 0:34:27.480 I think it's so critical. The erosion of democracy happens gradually. 0:34:27.920 --> 0:34:31.560 The opposition has ample opportunities to fight back. 0:34:32.040 --> 0:34:37.000 Yes, so before say the early two thousands, most democracies 0:34:37.080 --> 0:34:40.640 died via coups, right, And so the logic of a 0:34:40.680 --> 0:34:43.960 coup is you have usually a member of the armed forces, 0:34:44.040 --> 0:34:48.040 sometimes this a civilian leveraging weapons, and the armed forces 0:34:48.080 --> 0:34:52.600 takes over the presidential palace. And you know, immediately afterwards 0:34:52.680 --> 0:34:56.239 jail's opponents or persecutes them. Right, this happens in a 0:34:56.239 --> 0:34:59.160 matter of two or three days. So because coups happen 0:34:59.239 --> 0:35:02.279 like in one shot, the position really has no time 0:35:02.320 --> 0:35:05.000 to fight back, right Like, within three days, Congress is closed, 0:35:05.040 --> 0:35:08.120 the courts are closed, the military has controlled, the opposition 0:35:08.200 --> 0:35:09.920 is all in the embassies. That's kind of what we 0:35:10.040 --> 0:35:12.120 used to see in the past. But what we see 0:35:12.160 --> 0:35:16.960 today is a different form of democratic breakdown, is a 0:35:17.000 --> 0:35:21.560 slow form of democratic erosion that yes, eventually ends with 0:35:21.600 --> 0:35:26.480 the regime transforming into authoritarian into some form of authoritarian regime. 0:35:26.640 --> 0:35:29.600 But it happens over time, it happens very slowly. So 0:35:29.880 --> 0:35:32.000 if you think about I'm going to give you two examples. 0:35:32.000 --> 0:35:34.480 If you think about Venezuela, Uga, Chavis comes to power 0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:37.840 in nineteen ninety nine. Even by two thousand, after he 0:35:37.920 --> 0:35:41.080 had changed the constitution, the position had half of the 0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:45.480 seats in the legislature, had a significant influence over courts 0:35:45.600 --> 0:35:49.919 at significant influence over the military forces, and the main 0:35:50.600 --> 0:35:54.200 source of resources in Venezuela, which was the oil company. Likewise, 0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:56.760 if you think about the United States, yes, Donald Trump 0:35:56.840 --> 0:35:59.600 is the president, but Democrats have seats in Congress, they 0:35:59.600 --> 0:36:04.560 controlled governorships, they control majorships, they have seats in legislative assemblies, 0:36:04.600 --> 0:36:08.440 they have seats in council members. They have economic resources, 0:36:08.480 --> 0:36:11.080 they have media outlets. There's a lot of resources they 0:36:11.080 --> 0:36:14.759 can leverage to protect democracy. It is important to use 0:36:14.800 --> 0:36:17.319 those resources and to use them well. And what I 0:36:17.320 --> 0:36:20.239 have found in my research is that oppositions who use 0:36:20.600 --> 0:36:23.560 the resources and use them well are more likely to 0:36:23.680 --> 0:36:27.759 fit autocrats than those that don't. Now, Democrats, like many other, 0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:32.320 many many other oppositions in countries in processes of autoqualization 0:36:32.840 --> 0:36:36.319 are facing what we call regim uncertainty, so they are 0:36:36.400 --> 0:36:40.319 unsure of how serious is the threat. Right, So what 0:36:40.360 --> 0:36:42.319 you have is some people saying, you know what, we 0:36:42.360 --> 0:36:45.960 should just duck and wait and you know in the 0:36:45.960 --> 0:36:48.359 midterms this is all going to change. And then there's 0:36:48.400 --> 0:36:50.520 another group that is like a little bit more alarmed and. 0:36:50.480 --> 0:36:52.560 Be like, no, we need to react. 0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:55.759 I think both the streams are really bad. Right on 0:36:55.800 --> 0:37:00.480 the one hand, docking and changing and docking and waiting 0:37:00.840 --> 0:37:03.520 my meaning that you don't get a chance to protect 0:37:03.560 --> 0:37:05.920 democracy at this point in time. 0:37:06.600 --> 0:37:08.040 We don't know if the. 0:37:08.080 --> 0:37:10.480 Midterm elections are going to be free and fair, right, 0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:13.239 so there might not be midterm elections to win, or 0:37:13.280 --> 0:37:16.040 there might not be the ability to win midterm elections. 0:37:16.440 --> 0:37:19.520 But the only one the extremists, which is kind of 0:37:19.520 --> 0:37:23.200 what we sow early in Venezuela, is not necessarily good either. 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:27.000 This idea that you have to go the extra institutional route, 0:37:27.320 --> 0:37:31.040 stop the present at all costs, violating the constitution, violating 0:37:31.080 --> 0:37:33.640 the rules is also about idea, because what ends up 0:37:33.640 --> 0:37:38.640 happening is you give the present sort of the legitimacy 0:37:38.680 --> 0:37:43.360 he needs, the cover he needs to further entrench autocracy. 0:37:43.680 --> 0:37:45.640 Now there is a way to do this that is 0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:48.239 kind of in the middle, which is being strategic, Yes, 0:37:48.320 --> 0:37:51.239 being worried of being concerned by being strategic about the 0:37:51.280 --> 0:37:54.759 resources you have, protect them and expand them. So use 0:37:54.800 --> 0:37:57.880 them biomis, use them, but also use them in a 0:37:57.920 --> 0:38:00.000 way that protects them without risking them. 0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:01.719 Give me some ways to do that. 0:38:01.960 --> 0:38:04.279 So there are various ways to do that. One way 0:38:04.360 --> 0:38:07.120 is to obstruct logization from Congress. In Columbia, they were 0:38:07.160 --> 0:38:10.600 incredibly successful in obstructing legization. U S low it down, 0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:16.640 you include amendments, you create procedure irregularities another way, and 0:38:16.680 --> 0:38:20.239 this has happening places in which sort of autocorization is 0:38:20.239 --> 0:38:23.520 a little bit further down the road, such as Hungary, 0:38:23.760 --> 0:38:28.680 Coland you can use these spaces as mechanisms to visivilize 0:38:28.760 --> 0:38:31.480 what is happening. So say, for example, in the speech 0:38:31.560 --> 0:38:35.400 Donald trumk Gate to both the Joint Session of Congress, 0:38:35.719 --> 0:38:40.000 it was a mistake to not coordinate and do something 0:38:40.080 --> 0:38:46.040 together right, So Democrats could have missed the speech altogether, 0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:48.720 and if they all miss it, it's a huge visible 0:38:48.800 --> 0:38:53.560 signal of rejection. Or they could have disrupted the speech 0:38:53.840 --> 0:38:56.600 one by one. Instead of having just one representative doing it, 0:38:56.640 --> 0:38:59.279 you could have added all of them doing it one 0:38:59.280 --> 0:39:02.120 by one, which would have been highly, highly disruptive and 0:39:02.160 --> 0:39:05.840 incredibly hard to stop. Or you could have leveraged the 0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:09.160 space to something else. I think what you cannot do 0:39:09.480 --> 0:39:12.120 is missed the opportunity to use those spaces. 0:39:12.680 --> 0:39:15.959 Right, a really good point, And I think about what 0:39:16.080 --> 0:39:19.520 Corey Booker has done last night, which is he feilibuster 0:39:19.719 --> 0:39:22.480 for fifteen hours. What you're saying, it seems to me 0:39:22.840 --> 0:39:27.400 is that Democrats need to do absolutely everything they can 0:39:28.080 --> 0:39:31.320 to transmit that this is not normal. 0:39:31.280 --> 0:39:35.000 Yes, and to slow down the agenda. They have their 0:39:35.000 --> 0:39:38.560 resources to do it. They might not succeed right because 0:39:38.600 --> 0:39:40.880 they're not the majority, but that doesn't mean they cannot 0:39:40.880 --> 0:39:44.440 delay it, or that they cannot leverage those spaces to 0:39:44.640 --> 0:39:50.080 send important messages to Americans, to their partisan members and 0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:52.959 to other still society organizations. At the end of the day, 0:39:53.480 --> 0:39:56.640 what we're seeing is a lot of responses, but they 0:39:56.640 --> 0:39:59.200 don't seem very coordinated. So you have a few members 0:39:59.239 --> 0:40:01.799 of the party, members of Congress doing their own thing, 0:40:01.880 --> 0:40:04.359 you have seal society organizations doing their own thing. And 0:40:04.400 --> 0:40:07.880 I think Democrats have the ability to use these resources 0:40:07.920 --> 0:40:11.719 to somehow create a more ordinated response. 0:40:12.400 --> 0:40:16.680 Right exactly, Okay, I want to keep going with this idea. Right, 0:40:16.800 --> 0:40:19.520 So they need a coordinative response. They need to transmit 0:40:19.600 --> 0:40:22.359 that this is not normal now, they need to use 0:40:22.400 --> 0:40:23.200 what they've got. 0:40:23.280 --> 0:40:24.600 What does that mean? Go for that? 0:40:24.960 --> 0:40:28.680 I think about it in broader terms. Right, So, in Congress, 0:40:28.719 --> 0:40:31.680 for example, the last sort of critical juncture would have 0:40:31.760 --> 0:40:36.240 been the budget. They had the ability to slow down, stop, 0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:40.480 or leverage the negotiation over the continuing Resolution in order 0:40:40.719 --> 0:40:43.000 to send a message that this is not okay. I 0:40:43.480 --> 0:40:46.799 can see sort of the strategic calculations of not having 0:40:46.840 --> 0:40:49.560 a shutdown. I mean, there are arguments an argument for that, 0:40:49.760 --> 0:40:52.400 but they never made the argument. They did not leverage 0:40:52.440 --> 0:40:56.480 that unique opportunity they had to create a space to 0:40:56.560 --> 0:40:59.520 send a strong message to rally the troops to say 0:40:59.560 --> 0:41:01.879 this is not okay. Instead, they came out and said, well, 0:41:02.120 --> 0:41:04.239 you know what, a shutdown would be worse. And I 0:41:04.239 --> 0:41:05.320 think that that's a mistake. 0:41:05.800 --> 0:41:06.560 Right now. 0:41:06.760 --> 0:41:09.160 The second thing that I think could have happened is 0:41:09.200 --> 0:41:12.680 outside Congress. Really there is what we call a collective 0:41:12.719 --> 0:41:16.839 action problem. That is, it is really hard for individuals, 0:41:16.880 --> 0:41:20.680 So for instance, law firms or universities to protect themselves. 0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:24.799 So there is no gear agreement of how to fight together, right, 0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:29.160 and so universities or law firms or individuals being targeted 0:41:29.200 --> 0:41:32.040 by the government are scared, and so they're doing their 0:41:32.160 --> 0:41:35.840 very best to protect themselves individually. But what we have 0:41:35.880 --> 0:41:39.960 seen so far is that nobody is protected against a 0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:44.400 leader with authority and tendencies. So ultimately what needs to 0:41:44.480 --> 0:41:47.880 happen is some kind of coordination amongst these very powerful 0:41:47.920 --> 0:41:51.360 institutions and these very powerful elites to fight back. 0:41:51.880 --> 0:41:54.840 Right, you want something like a group to pay for 0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:58.239 legal fees or security or you know, there are a 0:41:58.239 --> 0:42:01.480 couple of saying Republicans in the Senate if you wanted 0:42:01.520 --> 0:42:04.200 them to stand up to trumpsm you would need to 0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:06.000 give them the infrastructure to do it. 0:42:06.040 --> 0:42:06.600 Is that, right? 0:42:06.920 --> 0:42:09.279 Exactly part of what needs to happen. I mean, I 0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:14.560 think sort of demonstrations and civil society out in the streets. 0:42:14.640 --> 0:42:19.200 Kinds of repertoires are incredibly useful, right, But as they 0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:23.560 stand right now, they're not necessarily long term, they're unsustainable 0:42:23.600 --> 0:42:27.160 over time. To have the kind of repertoires that we need, 0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:32.160 we need to provide resources to social movements, right, resources 0:42:32.200 --> 0:42:37.680 to organize, resources to protect their people, resources to create, 0:42:37.719 --> 0:42:41.279 to think creatively about different strategies, right, And so I 0:42:41.280 --> 0:42:44.279 think that's that's one of the things that needs to happen, right, Like, 0:42:44.320 --> 0:42:46.839 I think we need to figure out what is the 0:42:46.880 --> 0:42:52.279 long term organizational strategy outside of the regular institutions. Now, 0:42:52.640 --> 0:42:57.799 inside the institutions, I think you can leverage like politicians 0:42:57.840 --> 0:43:01.360 have a huge megaphone because they are occupying these seats. 0:43:01.640 --> 0:43:04.719 They have news outlets that interview them, and so they 0:43:04.719 --> 0:43:08.080 can leverage that megaphone to kind of coordinate or somehow 0:43:08.200 --> 0:43:11.680 organize these resources. I'm not sure if that's clear, but 0:43:11.760 --> 0:43:14.200 I'm happy to talk to say it again if needs be. 0:43:14.640 --> 0:43:16.160 Yeah, No, that's very clear. 0:43:16.480 --> 0:43:19.200 I want you to explain to us they kind of 0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:23.799 need institutional backing, they need some protection, right, Yes, and 0:43:23.840 --> 0:43:26.200 we can go to protect your own, which is one 0:43:26.239 --> 0:43:27.359 of your tenants here. 0:43:27.840 --> 0:43:33.000 Yes, So I think you need better organized movements because 0:43:33.000 --> 0:43:37.280 these kinds of movements help protect their own. Right Now, Again, 0:43:37.440 --> 0:43:41.799 individual law firms or individual universities or students or the 0:43:41.800 --> 0:43:45.280 federal workers that are suing the government are kind of alone, 0:43:45.280 --> 0:43:49.759 and there's a lot of costs associated with fighting an autocrat. 0:43:49.840 --> 0:43:52.719 So at the individual level, federal workers at the very 0:43:52.800 --> 0:43:56.760 least are losing wages, They're having to pay legal fees, 0:43:57.160 --> 0:44:00.040 they may be targeted by sort of supporters of the 0:44:00.080 --> 0:44:03.359 present online right, they might need somebody to take care 0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:05.600 of their kids, and then you have sort of as 0:44:05.600 --> 0:44:07.560 you go up, you have bigger problems. 0:44:07.640 --> 0:44:07.799 Right. 0:44:08.000 --> 0:44:12.080 So again, universities, their funds are being cut off, law 0:44:12.120 --> 0:44:15.160 firms their clients are being threatened. I think that if 0:44:15.200 --> 0:44:18.440 you create a broader organization, an actual organization, not the 0:44:18.760 --> 0:44:23.480 very good and very important spontaneous movement protests that we 0:44:23.520 --> 0:44:26.759 have seen, but an actual movement, that movement should think 0:44:26.800 --> 0:44:27.680 about how to. 0:44:27.719 --> 0:44:31.040 Protect like the Tesla takeover. Right. 0:44:31.080 --> 0:44:33.439 The Tesla take over I think is creative, I think 0:44:33.560 --> 0:44:35.759 is good. I think it's important, but I don't know 0:44:35.800 --> 0:44:38.520 how sustainable over time it is, especially if the government 0:44:38.560 --> 0:44:40.480 decides to repress these people. 0:44:40.480 --> 0:44:42.759 Right, which is what it looks like they're trying to 0:44:42.800 --> 0:44:43.880 do exactly. 0:44:43.920 --> 0:44:46.440 And so what needs to happen is a more structured 0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:51.520 organization that can help protect people who are engaging in 0:44:51.800 --> 0:44:54.799 this fight against the government, that can help protect or 0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:57.840 help survive the institutions that engage the fighter against the government. 0:44:58.080 --> 0:45:00.640 And I think that can only happen in in better 0:45:00.760 --> 0:45:04.920 organized movements like Outport in Serbia, which is the example 0:45:04.960 --> 0:45:08.080 I give in the article. Right, what they say about 0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:11.080 is Outpor was a student movement, right, and they knew 0:45:11.160 --> 0:45:13.880 very well that the government was going to repress their activists, 0:45:13.880 --> 0:45:17.880 and so they created an in structure that protected the organization. 0:45:18.360 --> 0:45:23.960 But they also devoted time and resources to have lawyers 0:45:23.960 --> 0:45:26.160 at hand, to have people that would mobilize, to make 0:45:26.200 --> 0:45:30.320 sure that nobody was disappeared, that everybody knew which jail 0:45:30.520 --> 0:45:33.480 was these activists being taken to, you know, like, just 0:45:33.600 --> 0:45:36.600 ready to react because this is gonna happen. This is 0:45:36.640 --> 0:45:39.120 not a like in a democratic regime, you can assume 0:45:39.160 --> 0:45:42.080 that somebody who's gonna go to jail, they're going to 0:45:42.160 --> 0:45:44.480 follow the new process. But that is not what we're 0:45:44.520 --> 0:45:45.120 seeing here. 0:45:45.560 --> 0:45:49.959 No, certainly not tell me the last thing is get 0:45:50.000 --> 0:45:53.479 out in the streets. Can you explain to us what 0:45:53.520 --> 0:45:54.279 that looks like? 0:45:54.920 --> 0:45:59.719 In regimes where elections are not fair, sometimes just participating 0:45:59.760 --> 0:46:02.640 in a elections is not enough because the regime will 0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:06.359 not be likely to accept the electoral outcome. We saw 0:46:06.360 --> 0:46:10.200 that in Guatemala recently. And we have seen it in Venezuela, 0:46:10.360 --> 0:46:13.600 we have seen it in Eastern Europe, we have seen 0:46:13.640 --> 0:46:16.760 it across the world. So when elections are not free 0:46:16.920 --> 0:46:19.759 or fair and it is unclear whether the government is 0:46:19.800 --> 0:46:23.080 going to accept the result elections or participating in elections 0:46:23.160 --> 0:46:26.160 is not enough. It's important, it's essential because it vocalizes 0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:29.800 the attention, but is not enough. In order to actually 0:46:29.880 --> 0:46:34.040 succeed in these elections, you have to have a mobilization strategy. 0:46:34.200 --> 0:46:37.080 And again, this comes with organization. This comes with training, 0:46:37.320 --> 0:46:41.080 This comes with networks, This comes with information that can 0:46:41.120 --> 0:46:44.640 be provided so that you can mobilize people immediately after 0:46:44.680 --> 0:46:49.480 the results if the incumbent refuses to acknowledge the elections 0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:51.960 and decides to stay in power. Right, that's what happened 0:46:51.960 --> 0:46:55.520 in Guatemala lately in twenty twenty three. The government refused 0:46:55.560 --> 0:46:58.040 to accept the results, was trying to steal the ballot. 0:46:58.440 --> 0:47:01.920 And if it wasn't for a very will organize indigenous 0:47:01.920 --> 0:47:06.480 and peasant movement that had already strategies in place to protest, 0:47:06.560 --> 0:47:09.960 non violent, to mobilize, to reach the places they needed 0:47:10.280 --> 0:47:12.759 to reach, probably they would have gotten away with it. 0:47:12.960 --> 0:47:16.520 Laura, this is haunting, but also incredibly important. 0:47:16.560 --> 0:47:18.120 Thank you, thank you, thank you. 0:47:18.600 --> 0:47:20.680 Thank you so much, Molly, thank you for having me. 0:47:22.840 --> 0:47:28.640 No more fuck Jesse Cannon, Mali Jong past. Now let's 0:47:28.719 --> 0:47:32.040 let's hearken back to an era before Trump parkin. 0:47:32.160 --> 0:47:34.080 I feel like this is my influence on you. Yes, 0:47:34.200 --> 0:47:36.440 heark Yes, yes, we get Harold. 0:47:36.760 --> 0:47:41.319 Yes, So we're going back before the archbed dominated politics 0:47:41.360 --> 0:47:43.920 had ruled over the land from his castle and we 0:47:43.920 --> 0:47:47.400 were very mad as Democrats when Mitt Romney said that 0:47:47.520 --> 0:47:49.480 corporations are people, my friend. 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:51.160 Yes, remember Mitt Romney. 0:47:51.360 --> 0:47:55.759 But now Trump has pardoned a corporation, which makes me 0:47:55.840 --> 0:47:57.280 think they may be people. 0:47:57.600 --> 0:48:01.879 They're definitely people and good for mid Romney. Remember when 0:48:01.920 --> 0:48:10.480 we thought Mitt Romney was the worst we could do. Oh, hilarious, hilarious. Yeah, 0:48:10.520 --> 0:48:12.920 he is not the worst we could do. You know, 0:48:13.040 --> 0:48:14.680 Mitt Romney was not the worst. 0:48:14.480 --> 0:48:16.719 We could do. He actually was the best we could do. 0:48:17.719 --> 0:48:18.919 So here we go. 0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:23.680 Trump has pardoned I think it's worth remembering that they 0:48:23.719 --> 0:48:27.040 have really like pardoned every criminal group. There have been, 0:48:27.080 --> 0:48:30.280 you know, people where they've said they've pardoned the people 0:48:30.360 --> 0:48:33.319 who the stuff where they were involved on the right 0:48:33.320 --> 0:48:37.759 wing side against the son of Joe Biden, Biden. There's 0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:40.640 just a lot of like, crimes aren't really crimes if 0:48:40.680 --> 0:48:45.799 you're our friends. So this was this idea that corporations 0:48:45.920 --> 0:48:50.200 that have created legal fictions designed to maximize shareholder wealth 0:48:50.320 --> 0:48:53.440 that that's no longer a crime. None of us should 0:48:53.440 --> 0:48:56.440 be surprised by this. This crew is not good. 0:48:57.080 --> 0:49:01.399 Yeah, not good. Not good. That's it for. 0:49:01.360 --> 0:49:08.080 This episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, 0:49:08.239 --> 0:49:12.160 and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics make 0:49:12.320 --> 0:49:16.319 sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast, 0:49:16.680 --> 0:49:20.080 please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. 0:49:20.560 --> 0:49:21.680 Thanks for listening.