1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: today's best minds and political reports. Elon will be departing 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: from DC soon. We'll see we have such a great 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: show for you today. Civil Discourse substack author and close 6 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: friend of mine Joyce Vance talks about constitutional checks and balances. 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: Then we'll talk to Professor. 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: Laura Gamboa about how to save a democracy and the 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: lessons from other countries authoritarian crisises. 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 2: But first the news. 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 3: So, Molly, I think we have pretty good news. I mean, 12 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 3: I'm pretty excited to see that Elon couldn't buy and 13 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 3: do his weird trickery that everybody believed won the twenty 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 3: twenty four election in Wisconsin last night. Since Dev's got 15 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 3: a big win. 16 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: Yes, so this was an interesting thing. You know again, Look, 17 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: the trump Ism does not only Trump can defy political gravity. 18 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:08,279 Speaker 1: Everyone else has For whatever reason, it only works for Trump. 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: It was the most expensive judicial race ever, about one 20 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars all in, Musk spent twenty five million. 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: I bet it's actually more than that. He has this 22 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: America pack. But then all of the other Republican senators, 23 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: so Republican senators, Republican donors, Elon Musk, Diana Hendrix, the 24 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: U lines, Soros, Pritzker and Ricketts, you know, all the 25 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: sort of people you would expect Rita Hoffman. 26 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: But the right definitely overspent the left. 27 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 3: With the right wing, saytes man Timothy Bellen, right. 28 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: And I think it's important to remember why this is important. 29 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: First of all, it's good news because it means that 30 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: our democracy, you know that you can't there's not just 31 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: a straight line between how much you spend and what happens. 32 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: That is good news. That's good news for any number 33 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: of reasons. It means that voters still have autonomy. It 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: means that they you know, you can advertise to them, 35 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, they're going to 36 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: do what they're going to do. And I think what 37 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: is And you know, the other thing that Elon did, 38 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: which was really sketchy, was he did these you know, 39 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: he paid people, right, voters who signed the petition got 40 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: one hundred dollars and then the key handed out million 41 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: dollar checks for recruiting captains. None of that worked. So 42 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: that's good news. That's good news for democracy. It's good 43 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: news because you know, look, there's a straight line between 44 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: Citizens United over durning Citizens United and the cluster fuck 45 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: we find ourselves in today. And again, I think it's 46 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: important to remember, like a lot of the stump Trump 47 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: is doing is really unpopular. So going in and slashing 48 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: the federal government, going in and making it so that 49 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: you can't get help for Social Security on the phone, 50 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: these are things that are actually quite unpopular, and we're 51 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: now seeing that voters don't like it and they're swinging 52 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: against it. And every election on Tuesday swung to the left. 53 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: And that's a good sign for any number of reasons, 54 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: and especially it's a good sign because, look, Trump is 55 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: a Republican, but Trump is also an authoritarian, and that 56 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: means he is trying to consolidate power. He is trying 57 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: to do all the things Orbond died in Hungary. 58 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: And to know that it's. 59 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: Not politically popular, and so that means that Republican House 60 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: members who are up for election in twenty six, and 61 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: people like Tom Tillis, right, the Senator from North Carolina 62 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: who's also up for reelection in twenty six, they're not 63 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: going to necessarily give Trump the blank check that he wants, 64 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: or if they are. Remember early on in this administration, 65 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: Trump had won the popular vote and he had pretty 66 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: good for him, still bad for everyone. Normal popularity numbers. 67 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: Now those numbers are you know, were what eight nine 68 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: weeks into this ten weeks into this presidency, and every 69 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: sort of two weeks the number goes down by about 70 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: two one and a half two points. So by the 71 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: time we're one hundred days into this thing, the guy 72 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: will be back in the high thirties. But the point 73 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: is this is good because Republicans, acting in their own 74 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: self interest, will at least do some kind of check 75 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: on Trump. They don't want to lose the House. And 76 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: I think we heard Musk say if Republicans lose the House, 77 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: then Democrats can impeage, Democrats can run checks on Trump's power. 78 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: Musk was saying that like that was a bad thing. 79 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: But I think a lot of voters actually don't think 80 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: that's a bad thing. 81 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: I agree. I think a lot of voters wouldn't think 82 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 3: it's bad if the House goes home but does nothing. 83 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 3: But I still find it quite disturbing since Mike Johnson 84 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 3: just canceled votes after the Republicans rebelled against him. 85 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, look, so this is fascinating in the fact that 86 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: it's just proof of my theory being correct. 87 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: So I consider that to be fascinating. 88 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: Mike Johnson cannot do math, and we have seen this 89 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: again and again and again. The one time Mike Johnson 90 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: was able to do math was for the cr that's 91 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: a continuing resolution that passed last week. 92 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: Or two weeks ago. 93 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: It got out of the House and literally no one 94 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: thought it would and then it got to the Senate 95 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: and Democrats couldn't figure out what to do, and it 96 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: was a disaster and it made everyone look bad. Now, 97 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 1: this bill, bipartisan bill for women voting after having children. 98 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: Johnson was absolutely allergic to it. But because he cannot 99 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: he fundamentally cannot do math, he was not able to 100 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: whip against it. Now he is the Speaker of the House, 101 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: he should not lose on a bipartisan bill. First of all, 102 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: I mean, this is like, I wonder if what the 103 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: president here is for this. I mean, it just sort 104 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: of shocks me. I think there's probably very little president 105 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: for this. So nine Republicans joined all the Democrats. Johnson 106 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: lost right to to two to two oh six. 107 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: Okay. 108 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: He then freaked out. He was supposed to lead voting 109 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: on this Save Act. The Save Act would have made 110 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: it very hard to vote. It would have made it 111 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: so if you changed your name as a woman. And 112 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: because nobody wants women voting because they're you know, they 113 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: don't know their place, that it would have made it 114 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: harder for women to vote. But because the Speaker of 115 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: the House, Mike Johnson, was so upset, he just canceled 116 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: all the voting for the week and I guess went 117 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: home to pray about it. 118 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 3: You know, this sounds to be like the temperamental thing 119 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 3: people make a cliche of women being like to me, Molly. 120 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: He cannot stand losing, so he should learn how to count. 121 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: And you know Representative Anna Paulina Luna, who is, by 122 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: the way, nobody is idea of a woke leftist, but 123 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: she wanted to be able to volt remotely right after 124 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: having a baby. I mean, this is really the bare 125 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: minimum that these people can do. And she did it 126 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: as a discharge position petition. I mean, it is really 127 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: quite a fuck up for Johnson. It makes them look 128 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: weak and it makes them look like you can't do math. 129 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 2: And he said that it was unconstitutional. 130 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: By the way, everything they don't like is unconstitutional and 131 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: it could open up Pandora's box, Yes, a Pandora's box 132 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: of like women working. So good to see this is 133 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: like we can file this under one of the worst 134 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: people you know getting. 135 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: You know schooled. 136 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: And by the way, it's not like these people are 137 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: you know, the two people who came out against this bill, 138 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: against Mike Johnson. 139 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: These are all like real right wingers. 140 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: So Max Miller, you'll remember, has had any number of 141 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: problems because remember there was some allegations of domestic violence, 142 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: but his statement was, I had a baby girl just 143 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: over a year go. In the first weeks of her life, 144 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: there were some complications. I can't imagine a mother who 145 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: has spent nine months going through the ring are being 146 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: told you can't be with your infant only because you 147 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: are one of the four hundred and thirty five people. 148 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: We are pro life, I mean ish pro family, not really. 149 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: As a new dad, I just couldn't support it. Mike Lawler, 150 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: who is you'll remember, running for governor. He's not going 151 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: to win, but he's trying to present himself as not 152 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: a complete psycho, as a father of two young children, 153 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: including a daughter born eight days before election, day. This 154 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: is a common sense solution. Looks learn math, Mike Johnson, learn. 155 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 3: Math, Somali, Cory Booker, iron Man, just bladder control standing. 156 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 3: You know, I know he played college football, was very good, 157 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 3: so you know, he's a varied shape guy. But everybody's like, 158 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 3: how did he do it? But what I'm wondering is 159 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 3: how did this one action get so many Democrats to 160 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 3: do the right things and start coming up the works. 161 00:08:57,880 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who are mat at 162 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: Corey Booker for any number of things and want to 163 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: criticize this as performative. But you're going to hear an 164 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: interview in this episode with Laura Gamboa who talks about 165 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: how important it is when you're fighting authoritarianism for an 166 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: opposition party to oppose, and that is what Booker is 167 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: doing here. He's posing Another important part of it is 168 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: he broke strom Thurman's record for a philibuster. Now, our 169 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: philibuster is bad, I mean, is the way that the 170 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: Senate works anti democratic? We can argue that all day long, 171 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: and perhaps it is. But the point here is that 172 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: what Corey Booker did was he said none of this 173 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: is normal, and what we need from democratic representatives from 174 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: senators and congress people, is we really need them to 175 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: act in a way that makes clear what we all 176 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: see with our own eyes, which is the richest man 177 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: in the world taking a chainsaw to the federal government 178 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: is not normal. And this is really, I think, an 179 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: important point. So I think it's good interesting thing that 180 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: Corey Booker said, which I think is really important to 181 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: be candid Strom Thurman's record always kind of just really 182 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: irked me. That would be the longest speech, longest speech 183 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: on our great Senate floor, was someone trying to stop 184 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: people like me from being in the Senate. And look, 185 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: I always think that the worst thing, the biggest mistake 186 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: we made in twenty sixteen was saying that America was 187 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: better than trump Ism. And the reality is we're not right. 188 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: We are a country that created Jim Crow. We are 189 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: exactly this. We are divided, and we are capable of 190 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: some really bad stuff. I think that it's really important 191 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: that Booker talked about what the original sin of America is. 192 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: And again, you know Thurman was he set this record 193 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: philibustering against the Civil Rights Act of nineteen fifty seven. 194 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 1: Now there's a new record, and it's by someone who 195 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: is a black senator from the state of New Jersey. 196 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 2: And I think that is exciting, and I think that. 197 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: That is the kind of thing that rallies people and 198 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: gets some serious about protecting armorms and institutions. So I 199 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: was glad to see that. Good and good for Corey Booker, 200 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: and millions of people watched it. 201 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 3: More importantly, Yes, I thought it was really interesting too 202 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 3: that a lot of senators put holds on different judges 203 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 3: and really started to come up the works like we've 204 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 3: been really pressing for on this podcast. 205 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, good for them. 206 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: Joyce Vance is the author of the Substack Civil Discourse 207 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: and co host of the podcast Sisters in. 208 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 2: Law Welcome to Fast Politics. I think of you as 209 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 2: my north star, Joyce Vance. 210 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 4: But I'm your south star because I'm in the Deep South. 211 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 4: I mean, can I really be a north star down here? 212 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: That's right, good point, You're my southern star. 213 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: Just legal Michigan's I want you to sort of outline 214 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: the top lines here. It seems to me like Trump 215 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 1: keeps just like Trump one point zero, losing in the courts. 216 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: So can you give us a sort of summation of that. 217 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, So, look, Molly, here's the way that I view 218 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 4: it donald Trump is trying to seize power that the 219 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 4: Constitution does not allocate to him, power that is specifically 220 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 4: forbidden to him, like, for instance, the power of the 221 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 4: purse that belongs to Congress. Every time he does one 222 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 4: of these things, whether it's trying to change the Constitution 223 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 4: with the stroke of a pen and write birthright citizenship 224 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 4: out of the Constitution, or most recently, whether he's trying 225 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 4: to tell the states who have the power to set 226 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 4: the terms of their own elections, what the rules for 227 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 4: those elections are. Lawyers are going to court, and lawyers 228 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 4: are winning in court because Donald Trump is trying to 229 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 4: collect power that the founding fathers did not want to 230 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 4: have fallen into his hands. They understood that president who 231 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 4: was too powerful could become a tyrant. And that's what 232 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 4: our three branches of government checks and balances constitutional system. 233 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 4: That's the entire premise that it's set up around preventing tyranny. 234 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: So this has sort of gotten the ire of one 235 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: Elon mush and I want you to talk to us 236 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: about what that looks like. He's sort of attacking the judiciary, 237 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: hoping to set the you know, he said he would 238 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: donate to people who were for judicial impeachment. Can you 239 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: talk to us about how unusual judicial impeachment is and 240 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: how as a remedy. I really think Republicans are going 241 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: to have a hard time getting that going. 242 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, an impossible time, right, because impeachment is not the 243 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 4: remedy for a judge's decision that you don't like. As 244 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 4: the Chief Justice most recently said, and you know John 245 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 4: Robert's issuing of public statement is is rare, only the 246 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 4: second time that he's done it, both times directed at 247 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 4: Donald Trump. The remedy if you don't like a decision 248 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 4: that a strict judge makes is to appeal it. That's 249 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 4: why we have courts of appeals and a Supreme Court. 250 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 4: We don't impeach judges even if we think they've made 251 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 4: the wrong decision. And look, even if you can get 252 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 4: articles of impeachment in the House, you're not gonna get 253 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 4: a conviction in the Senate. 254 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: Judicial impeachment is super unusual too, Like it hasn't happened 255 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: since since the eighteen hundreds. I mean, Nick, really not 256 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: a thing that's gonna work for them in any way, 257 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: shape or for right. 258 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 4: Well, there actually have been some more modern judicial impeachments, 259 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 4: but they've involved, for instance, District Judge Alsey Hastings, who 260 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 4: is impeached over alleged criminal conduct. It's extraordinarily rare, so 261 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 4: rare that, although I know that there are one or 262 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 4: two more, I can't give you even off the top 263 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 4: of my head names of people who were involved. 264 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: Right. 265 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 4: That one sticks with me. It's one of the more 266 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 4: recent ones. I think that there might be one in Louisiana. 267 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 4: It just is not something that happens because judges don't 268 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 4: buy and large tend to commit crimes. 269 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: So let's talk about what it sort of looks like 270 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: right now. A lot of these dose quote unquote cost 271 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: cutting measures are getting rejected in the courts. We're seeing 272 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: they're being forced to reinstate people they fired, they're being 273 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: forced to sort of undo all of these broadcuts. Can 274 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: you explain to us how and we're seeing a real 275 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,239 Speaker 1: conflict between Trump and the judiciary. 276 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: The one I'm. 277 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: Thinking of the most is this these deportations. How long 278 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: can Trump World go against the forts before we start 279 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: really getting into the meat of a constitutional crisis. 280 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 4: Well, look, I mean, we're past talking about whether or 281 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 4: not we're in a constitutional crisis. When you have a 282 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 4: presidency that's engaging in the sort of behavior that we're seeing, 283 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 4: we are already there, right, we have a president who's 284 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 4: trying to assume the power of one, possibly two of 285 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 4: the other branches of government. And the weird thing about 286 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 4: living through a constitutional crisis I've been writing about this 287 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 4: a lot lately, is it doesn't really feel all that different. Right. 288 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 4: Nobody's out in the streets tearing up the constitution and 289 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 4: so there's no real trigger, which is why we're still 290 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 4: asking the question, right, is it a constitutional crisis yet? 291 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 4: But let me tell you it is. And what we're 292 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 4: increasingly seeing is that it will be up to the 293 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 4: courts to fashion a remedy for a lawless president. Courts 294 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 4: don't have armies, they can't send folks out to enforce 295 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 4: their orders. Court orders are enforceable because as Americans we 296 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 4: accept the power of the judicial branch, and although sometimes 297 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 4: people push back a little bit, there is of course 298 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 4: an appellate process. Sometimes judges have to issue orders directing 299 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 4: parties to engage in better compliance with their orders than 300 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 4: they have been. There has never been a moment in 301 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 4: our history of this lawlessness where there's been open speculation 302 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 4: that a president might simply ignore the Supreme Court. If 303 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 4: that happens, we're in the soup, right. 304 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: Right, And that's a real question for sort of what 305 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 2: we're seeing. 306 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I think a lot of Trump World wants 307 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: to kick things up to the Supreme Court in the 308 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: hopes that the Supreme Court will somehow grant him everything 309 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: he wants in life. 310 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: Do you think that's realistic? 311 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 4: Well, look, we had the Attorney General saying that last week. 312 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 4: You know, she was talking about the cases and losses 313 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 4: in lower courts, and she spoke about getting to the 314 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 4: Supreme Court in fond terms, almost as though they were 315 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 4: a captive of the presidency. You and I both noted 316 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 4: that moment following Trump's not State of the Union, but 317 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 4: speech to the Joint Houses of Congress in session. We 318 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 4: noted that really painful moment at the end where Trump 319 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 4: walks down the line of Supreme Court justices shaking their hands. Thanks, 320 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 4: Elena Kagan tells the Chief Justice. Thanks, I won't forget 321 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 4: what you've done, you know, I mean, just like this 322 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 4: abominable moment that should have never happened, where Trump tried 323 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 4: to show the court that they were, in essence a 324 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 4: part of his government, not an independent branch. I don't 325 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 4: think that went down super well. I think that we 326 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 4: will see I'm long past the point of hoping for 327 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 4: nine zero decisions from the Supreme Court, but I think 328 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 4: we will see seven to two decisions defining the power 329 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 4: that a president can exercise and the power that a 330 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 4: president cannot exercise. 331 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: Speaking of that, they're setting up a bunch of stuff 332 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 1: to go to the Supreme Court. We saw I think 333 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: a really major moment when the Supreme Court rejected Sullivan 334 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: Vinior Times. Do you think that was a major moment 335 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: that they decided not to take it on the docket. 336 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: I feel like it was. And can you talk about 337 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: why that's important? 338 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 4: You bet. I'm one hundred percent in agreement with you. 339 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 4: You know, the Supreme Court rejected a case that had 340 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 4: been widely viewed as an opportunity for them to overturn 341 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 4: the precedent in New York Times versus Sullivan, an Alabama 342 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 4: case near and dear to my heart because I started 343 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 4: the practice of law doing a lot of defamation work, 344 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 4: and what Times versus Sullivan does. I think we all 345 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 4: know this at this point right. It imposes a very 346 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 4: high burden on someone who wants to sue for death 347 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 4: if they're a public figure, in order to recover, they 348 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 4: have to prove that they were defamed by someone who 349 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 4: showed actual malice, reckless disregard for the truth or falsity 350 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 4: of the statements that they were making. And there's been 351 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 4: a lot of suggestion that that standard is too difficult 352 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 4: and public figures can't recover, and so we need to 353 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 4: toss New York Times versus Sullivan out the window. Clarence 354 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 4: Thomas has adopted that approach in a concurrence in one case, 355 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 4: and there's been some sense that Justice Gorsich might be 356 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 4: on board too. He also had made a speech, I 357 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 4: think where he had sort of made those kind of comments. 358 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 4: But the full Court did not take this case. It 359 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 4: takes four votes for the Supreme Court to hear a 360 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 4: case oncert Those four votes weren't there. This is why 361 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 4: it matters Hungary. One of the first things that Orbond 362 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 4: did in Hungary was he made it easier to sue 363 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 4: the press for comments that they made about him, in 364 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 4: an effort to shut them down, in an effort to 365 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 4: make them afraid to say it, to make even modern 366 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 4: commentary out of fear that they would have these incredibly large, 367 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 4: damaging judicial judgments imposed against them. And you know this 368 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 4: was no doubt a similar move. I mean, the free press, 369 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 4: in many ways is what stands between you and me 370 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 4: and Tyranny Molly, and so protecting the press at all 371 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 4: costs is imperative. Apparently the Supreme Court, or at least 372 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 4: enough justices, weren't interested in helping Donald Trump erode that either. 373 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I want to add an interesting 374 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: thing about this is that the Sullivan New York Times case, 375 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: this case that was brought up, was actually brought up 376 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: by one of Trump's mega donners, Steve when Right. 377 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 4: So, yeah, this challenge that Wynn brought trying to say 378 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 4: that he could not be sued, it very much had 379 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 4: the look of this is what litigants do. The lawyers 380 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 4: among your listeners will know this. When there's precedent that 381 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 4: the lawyers don't like, or that really not the lawyers 382 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 4: but parties that they represent don't like, there will be 383 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 4: an effort to seed test cases across the country to 384 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 4: try to get rulings that can then be appealed to 385 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 4: the Supreme Court. And lawyers like to say bad facts 386 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 4: make bad law. Good facts make good law. So you're 387 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 4: very careful about the facts in the case that you're 388 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 4: trying to get up to the Supreme Court. You want 389 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 4: good facts so that you can make good law, or 390 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 4: at least good law for your client. And so this 391 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 4: case very much had the flavor of something that was 392 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 4: going to be used to argue that the standard in 393 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 4: Times versus Sullivan was far too high, that parties couldn't 394 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 4: meet it, and so it needed to be reversed, and 395 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 4: of course that ploy failed. I don't think we have 396 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 4: to look much further than the Egene Carroll case to 397 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 4: see why this matters, right, I mean, Trump would have 398 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 4: liked to win in that lawsuit, and he did not. 399 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to tell you, I always like, I 400 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,959 Speaker 1: find you to be so soothing and also just a 401 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: wonderful person and also such a smart layer. But it 402 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: sounds like I'm telling you we're done, but we're not done. 403 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: But I just needed to tell you that right. 404 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: Now before you hit me. Yeah. 405 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: Now, Well I need to tell you that because whenever 406 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: I'm talking to you, I feel a little better. And 407 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 1: I think it's so important right now with all of us, 408 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: you know, the people in this country who care about democracy. 409 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: We are very stressed out, and for good reason. And 410 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: when you talk about Hungary, I would love you to 411 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: talk about the ways in which it feels like everything 412 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: matters in order to not slide into autocracy. 413 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 2: But I want you to. 414 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: Talk about a little bit about how we really there 415 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: are good things happening despite all of the sort of 416 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: carnage that this administration is creating. 417 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know, I mean, there are good things happening, 418 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 4: and it's at the risk of being a little bit silly. 419 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 4: I have this breakfast club that meets every Wednesday morning. 420 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 4: It's met just forever, for decades. It's a small group 421 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 4: of women, different backgrounds, doctors, lawyers, business people, educators, retired people, 422 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 4: all different political stripes, just interested in getting together and 423 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 4: learning and spending time with women who are interested in 424 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 4: learning more about the world around them. I guess if 425 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 4: we had a theme, it would be that. And I 426 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 4: infrequently go these days because my Wednesday mornings are sort 427 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 4: of bad. But I was able to go last week, 428 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 4: and I was reminded that that's what democracy looks like, right, 429 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 4: small groups of Americans getting together. And I was fascinated 430 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 4: that this group that's so diverse, is completely united around 431 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 4: the notion that democracy has to survive. And so I 432 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 4: think this is what we all need to do. We 433 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 4: need to hug the people around us. We need to 434 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 4: spend some time talking about what matters. We don't live 435 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 4: in an era where democracy gets fought for on battlefield 436 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 4: in Europe. We live in this moment where we're fighting 437 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 4: for democracy in our living rooms, in the stands at 438 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 4: football games, across the counter at the grocery store. And 439 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 4: it's a little bit hard to get used to that 440 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 4: and to think that you're not being dramatic when you 441 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 4: say things like that. But the reality is that the 442 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 4: fight for democracy is happening at home, and it's happening 443 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 4: right now. 444 00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 445 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: And I think really great example is this race for 446 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: Supreme Court in It was the most expensive judicial race ever, 447 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: right this Wisconsin Supreme Court race. I'm wondering if you 448 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,719 Speaker 1: so this is something that is sort of a factor 449 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: of modern life, is that we have now and some 450 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: states have it in some states don't. We have these 451 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: sort of partisan judiciary elections. So I'm wondering if you 452 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: can sort of speak to us about sort of how 453 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: this came to be and what it means to have 454 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: partisan judicial elections, because we also don't have partisan judicial 455 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: elections in some places. 456 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 2: We have judges who are appointed. 457 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: So I'm hoping this was one hundred million dollar race 458 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: for this seat, and I'm hoping you could sort of 459 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:46,479 Speaker 1: talk about it. 460 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 4: Yes, So look, this isn't an eternal problem. How do 461 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 4: we pick our judges? 462 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: Right? 463 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 4: We expect our judges to be objective. We want them 464 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 4: to be above party politics and personal grievances. How do 465 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 4: we get them there? And there two primary ways. One 466 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 4: is that they get appointed by somebody. That's the federal system. 467 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 4: The other is that they get elected by the people. 468 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 4: That's what a number of states have. And you know, 469 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 4: there are problems both ways. Right to get appointed to 470 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 4: be a federal judge, depending on the administration, you have 471 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 4: to be more or less in line with what they 472 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 4: think their long term policy goals are to get a seat. 473 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,719 Speaker 4: So there's that to get elected, and particularly states are 474 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 4: really different about how they do this. In some states, 475 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 4: mine is one of them. Judges just run for re 476 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 4: election every six years. In other states, once you're in 477 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 4: there's this sort of luke thumbs up, thumbs down vote 478 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 4: where you only get booted out of office if the 479 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 4: people think that you've really screwed something up, and so 480 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 4: elections to have their problems. You know, sometimes you feel like, 481 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 4: especially now that we live in this era where political 482 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 4: money can be injected into races for judges, you sort 483 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,719 Speaker 4: of feel like the judges should take the bench with 484 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 4: patches on their robes displaying their loyalty right to the 485 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 4: big corporate donors that put them there. I think what 486 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 4: you gotta do is you've got to hope that at 487 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 4: some level you are selecting people of honor and integrity 488 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 4: who understand the mission, and regardless of how they get 489 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 4: on the bench, they will fulfill their duty to make 490 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 4: decisions in their cases based on the facts and the law. 491 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 4: That happens in a surprising number of cases every day, 492 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 4: all across the country. But it's not a perfect system. 493 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 4: I don't think we should pretend it is. It's the 494 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 4: best way we've got to pick judges. 495 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: We have definitely seen that happen, And a great example 496 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: I feel like is that this Trump administration has lost 497 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: with judges from five different administrations, right Republican judges, Democratic judges, 498 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: Bush judges, Obama judges. Everyone has said that a lot 499 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: of this stuff Trump has tried to do as illegal. 500 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: I have one last question for you, which is about 501 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: Trump did this executive order which is meant to mass 502 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: with elections socrats are suing him. 503 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 2: Talk to me about sort. 504 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: Of what this means, how this works, and also ourn't 505 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: executive orders sort of toothless ultimately. 506 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 2: But talk about it. 507 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 4: Executive orders are powerful to the extent that they're ordering 508 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 4: people in the executive branch to do something. And so 509 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 4: when you write an executive order, I think Trump is 510 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 4: particularly good at this. You tool it so that you're 511 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 4: directing people that you have control over to do something. 512 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 4: Executive orders don't have any force beyond maybe being a 513 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 4: bully pulpit if you're, for instance, directing the states to 514 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 4: do something. And so, to cut to the chase Molly, 515 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 4: what Trump does in this executive order on voting is 516 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 4: he tells states and by the way, if you don't 517 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 4: do my bidding, no more federal funding for your elections. 518 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 4: And that will be catastrophic in some places. You know, 519 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 4: we don't have one national election. We don't even have 520 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 4: fifty state elections. We have a series of elections being 521 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 4: held across the country. Thousands of them local elections all 522 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 4: across the country, and some of the counties that are 523 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 4: running elections are largely dependent. The federal funding that they 524 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 4: get is essential, particularly if they're going to take advantage 525 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 4: of modern technology and keep it secure. So that's what 526 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 4: Trump thinks he has the force to do. There are 527 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 4: a couple of things going on in this executive order. 528 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 4: One of course, is this demand that no one can 529 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 4: register to vote unless they can prove their citizenship. And 530 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 4: that's really sort of crazy what happens, And this is 531 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 4: the long term theme. Right Republicans raise a lot of 532 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,719 Speaker 4: noise and dust claiming that there's voter fraud infecting our elections, 533 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 4: and the reality is that that's not true. People who 534 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 4: have looked at this and studied this, even Republican states 535 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 4: that have tried to find evidence of people who aren't 536 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 4: citizens voting in our elections come up largely empty handed. 537 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 4: There's no evidence that voter fraud is impacting the outcome 538 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 4: of elections. And the problem is that they then use 539 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 4: those baseless claims of voter fraud to engage in voter suppression, 540 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 4: to keep people who are entitled to vote from voting. 541 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 4: That's what's happening here because if you don't have a passport, 542 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 4: it can be really hard to prove that you're a citizen. 543 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 4: And you know who has passports. It's people like you 544 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 4: and me. It's people who are upper middle class people 545 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 4: who are doing okay. And a move like this disenfranchises 546 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 4: people who are older. A lot of elderly people, for instance, 547 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 4: may have been born at home and don't have easy 548 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 4: access to birth certificates, or they've lost the papers that 549 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 4: they need in moves. It hurts black people in the South, 550 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 4: and these voter suppression measures are always directed at keeping 551 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,719 Speaker 4: black voters from voting because Republicans fear that they will 552 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 4: vote democratic. This is just more of that same and 553 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 4: it's just really offensive to democracy. And I think something 554 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 4: that we don't do because we've lived with eight years 555 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 4: of outrage and we no longer have the capacity really 556 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 4: to get super outraged about any one individual of this 557 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 4: EO that is an effort to suppress the vote is outrageous. 558 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 4: It's the dying gasp of a lame duck president who 559 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 4: wants to try to have a legacy, and that legacy 560 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 4: is taking away democracy from Americans. 561 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 2: Thank you, Joyce Fance. 562 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me, Molly. It's always good to be 563 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 4: with you. 564 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: Laura Damboa, it's a professor at the University of Notre Dame. 565 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Laura, thank you so much for 566 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: the invite. 567 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 4: Mollie. 568 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: I want you to talk about this article you wrote 569 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: in Foreign Affairs called how to Save a Democracy, But 570 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: first I want you to tell us a little bit 571 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: about your field of study so that we can understand 572 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: exactly why you are the person to make this case. 573 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 5: I study democratic backslighting. I've been studying it for more 574 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 5: than ten years. I particularly focus on what all positions 575 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 5: can do to stop what I call potential autocrats. These 576 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 5: are presidents or executive that are willing to undermine democratic 577 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 5: institutions in order to get what they want, and so 578 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 5: what I work on is what oppositions can do to 579 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 5: stop them. I wrote a book that was published in 580 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 5: twenty twenty two called Resisting Backsliding Opposition Strategies against the 581 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,959 Speaker 5: Erosion of Democracy, in which I discussed how the strategies 582 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 5: used by the opposition in Venezuela against Douguchavis failed, while 583 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 5: the opposition the strategy is used by the opposition in 584 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 5: Colombia against al Var u Riwe succeeded in stopping alvar 585 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 5: Drive from undermining democracy, pretty much stopping him from staying 586 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 5: in power after his second term. 587 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 2: So you really know what you're talking about. 588 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: You have an example here, you've studied where where stopping 589 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: autocracy has worked and where it hasn't worked. 590 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 2: So first explain. 591 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: To us why Donald Trump is an aspiring autocraft. 592 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: What are the symptoms? 593 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 5: So there are plenty symptoms. Autocrats or potential autocrats often 594 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 5: come to power with an anti systemic discourse that attacks 595 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 5: democratic institutions. It attacks Congress, it attacks the courts, it 596 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 5: attacks opponents. It just takes away legitimacy from opponents. It 597 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 5: supports or endorses violence against those that disagree with him. 598 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 5: That is kind of discoursively. But more importantly, I think 599 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 5: that because Donald trump property was present for four years, 600 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 5: we had a pretty good idea of how authoritarian he 601 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 5: could be. He pretty much broke the cardinal rule of 602 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 5: the Marcusies, which is there is an election and you 603 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 5: respect the result. 604 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 2: And he did it. There was an. 605 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 5: Election, he lost that election, and then he mobilized a 606 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,479 Speaker 5: group of people to attack the capital, to change the outcome, 607 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 5: to to fail to certify the election, and he has 608 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 5: refused to acknowledge the result of those elections ever since 609 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 5: now as present, he has behaved. What we're seeing in 610 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 5: the you as the closest example that I've seen is Guatemala. 611 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 5: What you have is an elite coalition that seeks to 612 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 5: undermine the state, pretty much carve away in this case 613 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 5: of federal bureaucracy, in order to promote corruption and impunity. 614 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 5: That's what we have seen in the past two months now. 615 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 5: The problem with that is that when you do that, then, 616 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 5: so first of all, is the way it has been 617 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 5: done is done by violating or defying or ignoring the law. 618 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 2: It has been done. 619 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 5: In the mesifiic scores that attacks the courts, and very importantly, 620 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 5: it has also been done with a discourse that pretty 621 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 5: much claims that only those who support him are entitled 622 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 5: to the rights that are afforded to all of us 623 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 5: by the Constitution. 624 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: And we're seeing that with the disappearing grad students. We're 625 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: saying that with the fight with the sixty minutes in review, right, 626 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: the idea that if you're not towing the party line, 627 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: you're lying or you're doing something illegal. So the first 628 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: part of this story of this idea of pushback against autocracy. 629 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: It begins with don't throw away your shot. So explain 630 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: to us what that means. And I think even more important, 631 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: I think I just want to read one line because 632 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: I think it's so critical. The erosion of democracy happens gradually. 633 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: The opposition has ample opportunities to fight back. 634 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 5: Yes, so before say the early two thousands, most democracies 635 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 5: died via coups, right, And so the logic of a 636 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 5: coup is you have usually a member of the armed forces, 637 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 5: sometimes this a civilian leveraging weapons, and the armed forces 638 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 5: takes over the presidential palace. And you know, immediately afterwards 639 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 5: jail's opponents or persecutes them. Right, this happens in a 640 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 5: matter of two or three days. So because coups happen 641 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 5: like in one shot, the position really has no time 642 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 5: to fight back, right Like, within three days, Congress is closed, 643 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 5: the courts are closed, the military has controlled, the opposition 644 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 5: is all in the embassies. That's kind of what we 645 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 5: used to see in the past. But what we see 646 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 5: today is a different form of democratic breakdown, is a 647 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 5: slow form of democratic erosion that yes, eventually ends with 648 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 5: the regime transforming into authoritarian into some form of authoritarian regime. 649 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 5: But it happens over time, it happens very slowly. So 650 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 5: if you think about I'm going to give you two examples. 651 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 5: If you think about Venezuela, Uga, Chavis comes to power 652 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 5: in nineteen ninety nine. Even by two thousand, after he 653 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 5: had changed the constitution, the position had half of the 654 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 5: seats in the legislature, had a significant influence over courts 655 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,919 Speaker 5: at significant influence over the military forces, and the main 656 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 5: source of resources in Venezuela, which was the oil company. Likewise, 657 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 5: if you think about the United States, yes, Donald Trump 658 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 5: is the president, but Democrats have seats in Congress, they 659 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 5: controlled governorships, they control majorships, they have seats in legislative assemblies, 660 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 5: they have seats in council members. They have economic resources, 661 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 5: they have media outlets. There's a lot of resources they 662 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 5: can leverage to protect democracy. It is important to use 663 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 5: those resources and to use them well. And what I 664 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 5: have found in my research is that oppositions who use 665 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 5: the resources and use them well are more likely to 666 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 5: fit autocrats than those that don't. Now, Democrats, like many other, 667 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 5: many many other oppositions in countries in processes of autoqualization 668 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 5: are facing what we call regim uncertainty, so they are 669 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 5: unsure of how serious is the threat. Right, So what 670 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 5: you have is some people saying, you know what, we 671 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 5: should just duck and wait and you know in the 672 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 5: midterms this is all going to change. And then there's 673 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 5: another group that is like a little bit more alarmed and. 674 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 2: Be like, no, we need to react. 675 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 5: I think both the streams are really bad. Right on 676 00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 5: the one hand, docking and changing and docking and waiting 677 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 5: my meaning that you don't get a chance to protect 678 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 5: democracy at this point in time. 679 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 2: We don't know if the. 680 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 5: Midterm elections are going to be free and fair, right, 681 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 5: so there might not be midterm elections to win, or 682 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 5: there might not be the ability to win midterm elections. 683 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 5: But the only one the extremists, which is kind of 684 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 5: what we sow early in Venezuela, is not necessarily good either. 685 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 5: This idea that you have to go the extra institutional route, 686 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 5: stop the present at all costs, violating the constitution, violating 687 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 5: the rules is also about idea, because what ends up 688 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 5: happening is you give the present sort of the legitimacy 689 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 5: he needs, the cover he needs to further entrench autocracy. 690 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 5: Now there is a way to do this that is 691 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 5: kind of in the middle, which is being strategic, Yes, 692 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 5: being worried of being concerned by being strategic about the 693 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 5: resources you have, protect them and expand them. So use 694 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 5: them biomis, use them, but also use them in a 695 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 5: way that protects them without risking them. 696 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 2: Give me some ways to do that. 697 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 5: So there are various ways to do that. One way 698 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 5: is to obstruct logization from Congress. In Columbia, they were 699 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 5: incredibly successful in obstructing legization. U S low it down, 700 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 5: you include amendments, you create procedure irregularities another way, and 701 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 5: this has happening places in which sort of autocorization is 702 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 5: a little bit further down the road, such as Hungary, 703 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 5: Coland you can use these spaces as mechanisms to visivilize 704 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 5: what is happening. So say, for example, in the speech 705 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 5: Donald trumk Gate to both the Joint Session of Congress, 706 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 5: it was a mistake to not coordinate and do something 707 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 5: together right, So Democrats could have missed the speech altogether, 708 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,720 Speaker 5: and if they all miss it, it's a huge visible 709 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 5: signal of rejection. Or they could have disrupted the speech 710 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 5: one by one. Instead of having just one representative doing it, 711 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 5: you could have added all of them doing it one 712 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 5: by one, which would have been highly, highly disruptive and 713 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaker 5: incredibly hard to stop. Or you could have leveraged the 714 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 5: space to something else. I think what you cannot do 715 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 5: is missed the opportunity to use those spaces. 716 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,959 Speaker 1: Right, a really good point, And I think about what 717 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: Corey Booker has done last night, which is he feilibuster 718 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: for fifteen hours. What you're saying, it seems to me 719 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 1: is that Democrats need to do absolutely everything they can 720 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: to transmit that this is not normal. 721 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 5: Yes, and to slow down the agenda. They have their 722 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 5: resources to do it. They might not succeed right because 723 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 5: they're not the majority, but that doesn't mean they cannot 724 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 5: delay it, or that they cannot leverage those spaces to 725 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 5: send important messages to Americans, to their partisan members and 726 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,959 Speaker 5: to other still society organizations. At the end of the day, 727 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 5: what we're seeing is a lot of responses, but they 728 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 5: don't seem very coordinated. So you have a few members 729 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 5: of the party, members of Congress doing their own thing, 730 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,359 Speaker 5: you have seal society organizations doing their own thing. And 731 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 5: I think Democrats have the ability to use these resources 732 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 5: to somehow create a more ordinated response. 733 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: Right exactly, Okay, I want to keep going with this idea. Right, 734 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: So they need a coordinative response. They need to transmit 735 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: that this is not normal now, they need to use 736 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: what they've got. 737 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 2: What does that mean? Go for that? 738 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 5: I think about it in broader terms. Right, So, in Congress, 739 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 5: for example, the last sort of critical juncture would have 740 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,240 Speaker 5: been the budget. They had the ability to slow down, stop, 741 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 5: or leverage the negotiation over the continuing Resolution in order 742 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 5: to send a message that this is not okay. I 743 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 5: can see sort of the strategic calculations of not having 744 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 5: a shutdown. I mean, there are arguments an argument for that, 745 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 5: but they never made the argument. They did not leverage 746 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 5: that unique opportunity they had to create a space to 747 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 5: send a strong message to rally the troops to say 748 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,879 Speaker 5: this is not okay. Instead, they came out and said, well, 749 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 5: you know what, a shutdown would be worse. And I 750 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:05,320 Speaker 5: think that that's a mistake. 751 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 2: Right now. 752 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 5: The second thing that I think could have happened is 753 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 5: outside Congress. Really there is what we call a collective 754 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,839 Speaker 5: action problem. That is, it is really hard for individuals, 755 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 5: So for instance, law firms or universities to protect themselves. 756 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 5: So there is no gear agreement of how to fight together, right, 757 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 5: and so universities or law firms or individuals being targeted 758 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 5: by the government are scared, and so they're doing their 759 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 5: very best to protect themselves individually. But what we have 760 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 5: seen so far is that nobody is protected against a 761 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 5: leader with authority and tendencies. So ultimately what needs to 762 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,880 Speaker 5: happen is some kind of coordination amongst these very powerful 763 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,360 Speaker 5: institutions and these very powerful elites to fight back. 764 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: Right, you want something like a group to pay for 765 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 1: legal fees or security or you know, there are a 766 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: couple of saying Republicans in the Senate if you wanted 767 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: them to stand up to trumpsm you would need to 768 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: give them the infrastructure to do it. 769 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 2: Is that, right? 770 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 5: Exactly part of what needs to happen. I mean, I 771 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 5: think sort of demonstrations and civil society out in the streets. 772 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 5: Kinds of repertoires are incredibly useful, right, But as they 773 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 5: stand right now, they're not necessarily long term, they're unsustainable 774 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 5: over time. To have the kind of repertoires that we need, 775 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 5: we need to provide resources to social movements, right, resources 776 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 5: to organize, resources to protect their people, resources to create, 777 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 5: to think creatively about different strategies, right, And so I 778 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 5: think that's that's one of the things that needs to happen, right, Like, 779 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 5: I think we need to figure out what is the 780 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 5: long term organizational strategy outside of the regular institutions. Now, 781 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 5: inside the institutions, I think you can leverage like politicians 782 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 5: have a huge megaphone because they are occupying these seats. 783 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 5: They have news outlets that interview them, and so they 784 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 5: can leverage that megaphone to kind of coordinate or somehow 785 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 5: organize these resources. I'm not sure if that's clear, but 786 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 5: I'm happy to talk to say it again if needs be. 787 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's very clear. 788 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: I want you to explain to us they kind of 789 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: need institutional backing, they need some protection, right, Yes, and 790 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: we can go to protect your own, which is one 791 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:27,359 Speaker 1: of your tenants here. 792 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 5: Yes, So I think you need better organized movements because 793 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,280 Speaker 5: these kinds of movements help protect their own. Right Now, Again, 794 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 5: individual law firms or individual universities or students or the 795 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,280 Speaker 5: federal workers that are suing the government are kind of alone, 796 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 5: and there's a lot of costs associated with fighting an autocrat. 797 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 5: So at the individual level, federal workers at the very 798 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,760 Speaker 5: least are losing wages, They're having to pay legal fees, 799 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,040 Speaker 5: they may be targeted by sort of supporters of the 800 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 5: present online right, they might need somebody to take care 801 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 5: of their kids, and then you have sort of as 802 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 5: you go up, you have bigger problems. 803 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:07,799 Speaker 1: Right. 804 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 5: So again, universities, their funds are being cut off, law 805 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 5: firms their clients are being threatened. I think that if 806 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 5: you create a broader organization, an actual organization, not the 807 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 5: very good and very important spontaneous movement protests that we 808 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 5: have seen, but an actual movement, that movement should think 809 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 5: about how to. 810 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 2: Protect like the Tesla takeover. Right. 811 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,439 Speaker 5: The Tesla take over I think is creative, I think 812 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,759 Speaker 5: is good. I think it's important, but I don't know 813 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 5: how sustainable over time it is, especially if the government 814 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 5: decides to repress these people. 815 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 2: Right, which is what it looks like they're trying to 816 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 2: do exactly. 817 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 5: And so what needs to happen is a more structured 818 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 5: organization that can help protect people who are engaging in 819 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 5: this fight against the government, that can help protect or 820 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,840 Speaker 5: help survive the institutions that engage the fighter against the government. 821 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 5: And I think that can only happen in in better 822 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 5: organized movements like Outport in Serbia, which is the example 823 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 5: I give in the article. Right, what they say about 824 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 5: is Outpor was a student movement, right, and they knew 825 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 5: very well that the government was going to repress their activists, 826 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,880 Speaker 5: and so they created an in structure that protected the organization. 827 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 5: But they also devoted time and resources to have lawyers 828 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 5: at hand, to have people that would mobilize, to make 829 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:30,320 Speaker 5: sure that nobody was disappeared, that everybody knew which jail 830 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 5: was these activists being taken to, you know, like, just 831 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 5: ready to react because this is gonna happen. This is 832 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 5: not a like in a democratic regime, you can assume 833 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 5: that somebody who's gonna go to jail, they're going to 834 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 5: follow the new process. But that is not what we're 835 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 5: seeing here. 836 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,959 Speaker 1: No, certainly not tell me the last thing is get 837 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,479 Speaker 1: out in the streets. Can you explain to us what 838 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:54,279 Speaker 1: that looks like? 839 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,719 Speaker 5: In regimes where elections are not fair, sometimes just participating 840 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 5: in a elections is not enough because the regime will 841 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,359 Speaker 5: not be likely to accept the electoral outcome. We saw 842 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 5: that in Guatemala recently. And we have seen it in Venezuela, 843 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,600 Speaker 5: we have seen it in Eastern Europe, we have seen 844 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,760 Speaker 5: it across the world. So when elections are not free 845 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,759 Speaker 5: or fair and it is unclear whether the government is 846 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 5: going to accept the result elections or participating in elections 847 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 5: is not enough. It's important, it's essential because it vocalizes 848 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,800 Speaker 5: the attention, but is not enough. In order to actually 849 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 5: succeed in these elections, you have to have a mobilization strategy. 850 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 5: And again, this comes with organization. This comes with training, 851 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 5: This comes with networks, This comes with information that can 852 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,640 Speaker 5: be provided so that you can mobilize people immediately after 853 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 5: the results if the incumbent refuses to acknowledge the elections 854 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,960 Speaker 5: and decides to stay in power. Right, that's what happened 855 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 5: in Guatemala lately in twenty twenty three. The government refused 856 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,040 Speaker 5: to accept the results, was trying to steal the ballot. 857 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,920 Speaker 5: And if it wasn't for a very will organize indigenous 858 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:06,480 Speaker 5: and peasant movement that had already strategies in place to protest, 859 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,960 Speaker 5: non violent, to mobilize, to reach the places they needed 860 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 5: to reach, probably they would have gotten away with it. 861 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,520 Speaker 1: Laura, this is haunting, but also incredibly important. 862 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,120 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you. 863 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,680 Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Molly, thank you for having me. 864 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 3: No more fuck Jesse Cannon, Mali Jong past. Now let's 865 00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 3: let's hearken back to an era before Trump parkin. 866 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 2: I feel like this is my influence on you. Yes, 867 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,440 Speaker 2: heark Yes, yes, we get Harold. 868 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:41,319 Speaker 3: Yes, So we're going back before the archbed dominated politics 869 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 3: had ruled over the land from his castle and we 870 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 3: were very mad as Democrats when Mitt Romney said that 871 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 3: corporations are people, my friend. 872 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 2: Yes, remember Mitt Romney. 873 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 3: But now Trump has pardoned a corporation, which makes me 874 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:57,280 Speaker 3: think they may be people. 875 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,879 Speaker 1: They're definitely people and good for mid Romney. Remember when 876 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:10,480 Speaker 1: we thought Mitt Romney was the worst we could do. Oh, hilarious, hilarious. Yeah, 877 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,920 Speaker 1: he is not the worst we could do. You know, 878 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 1: Mitt Romney was not the worst. 879 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,719 Speaker 2: We could do. He actually was the best we could do. 880 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:18,919 Speaker 2: So here we go. 881 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: Trump has pardoned I think it's worth remembering that they 882 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 1: have really like pardoned every criminal group. There have been, 883 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,280 Speaker 1: you know, people where they've said they've pardoned the people 884 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,319 Speaker 1: who the stuff where they were involved on the right 885 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:37,759 Speaker 1: wing side against the son of Joe Biden, Biden. There's 886 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,640 Speaker 1: just a lot of like, crimes aren't really crimes if 887 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:45,799 Speaker 1: you're our friends. So this was this idea that corporations 888 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:50,200 Speaker 1: that have created legal fictions designed to maximize shareholder wealth 889 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,440 Speaker 1: that that's no longer a crime. None of us should 890 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,440 Speaker 1: be surprised by this. This crew is not good. 891 00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:01,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, not good. Not good. That's it for. 892 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:08,080 Speaker 1: This episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, 893 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 1: and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics make 894 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,319 Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast, 895 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. 896 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.