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Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

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Speaker 2: I was naive enough to believe that I would be

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Speaker 2: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,

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Speaker 2: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be going to prison because I was a good person.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't done anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when

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Speaker 1: we go to a hearing or we go to court,

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Speaker 1: the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one

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Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected

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Speaker 1: from the lower courts all the way up to the

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Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court.

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Speaker 3: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,

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Speaker 3: in that moment, unchecked authority.

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Speaker 2: Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them

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Speaker 2: on TV, because it may just be a dirty da

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Speaker 2: that is trying to rise upward.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Ronfuel Conviction with

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Speaker 4: Jason Flumm. Today's episode will make your blood boil and

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Speaker 4: it will blow your mind. So settle in because this

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Speaker 4: is going to be a crazy ride.

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Speaker 5: Guilty one word ceiling. Lamont McIntyre's fate.

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Speaker 6: Lamont McIntyre aged seventeen in nineteen ninety four has so

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Speaker 6: far been imprisoned for twenty two years. Twenty two years ago,

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Speaker 6: two young men, twenty one year old Donielle Quinn and

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Speaker 6: his thirty four year old cousin, Donald Ewing, were gunned

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Speaker 6: down in a horrible double homicide.

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Speaker 5: Six hours after the murder's police arrested McIntyre, but never

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Speaker 5: searched his house for evidence.

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Speaker 6: Moreover, it was a trial which prosecutors offered no physical

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Speaker 6: evidence tying McIntyre to the crime, no motive, no connection

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Speaker 6: between him and the victims, no weapon, no fingerprints, nor

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Speaker 6: did Kansas City, Kansas Belief even requests search warrants to

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Speaker 6: find any of that material.

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Speaker 5: A retired officer who reviewed the case caused the investigation

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Speaker 5: grossly deficient.

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Speaker 6: Most notable is that the family of the victims for

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Speaker 6: twenty two years have steadfastly insisted that he is innocent.

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Speaker 6: Other witnesses, also relatives of the victim, insist that as

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Speaker 6: soon as they saw McIntyre sitting at the defense table,

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Speaker 6: they knew he was not the shooter. They told the prosecutor,

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Speaker 6: but were ignored. One family member has signed an affi

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Speaker 6: David claiming that under pressure from police and the prosecutor

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Speaker 6: she lied at McIntyre's trial.

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Speaker 5: For the first time a jury is speaking publicly about

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Speaker 5: the case, Greg Lauber says that he now believes that

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Speaker 5: Ryan Dot County jury was wrong.

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Speaker 7: They didn't care about anything. They just had their man and.

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Speaker 5: It was enough for the twelfth person jury. In deliberations,

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Speaker 5: Lauber says he and another juror were holdouts, but it

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Speaker 5: was late in the day and there was mounting pressure

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Speaker 5: from others who wanted a verdict.

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Speaker 6: Maybe I had an opportunity to, you know, do something

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Speaker 6: good on that jury, but I sure didn't do it.

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Speaker 7: I took a coward's way out.

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Speaker 6: It is the speedy investigation and prosecution of that crime

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Speaker 6: in this place that a team of exonerators now insist

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Speaker 6: was also the focus of a terrible injustice. Lamont McIntyre,

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Speaker 6: age seventeen in nineteen ninety four, has so far been

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Speaker 6: imprisoned for twenty two years, convicted, and given two consecutive

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Speaker 6: life sentences for a crime they say he never committed.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm just going to say I'm really happy that

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Speaker 4: today joining us to discuss the insane case of Lamont McIntyre,

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Speaker 4: we have with us Lamont's attorney Cheryl Pilot, as well

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Speaker 4: as retired FBI special agent Al Jenerich. Cheryl and Al,

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Speaker 4: thank you for being here.

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Speaker 8: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 9: We're glad to be here, happy to be here.

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Speaker 4: And we will be hearing later on in the episode

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Speaker 4: from Lamont, who will be calling in from prison in

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Speaker 4: Kansas where he has been incarcerated for approximately twenty four

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Speaker 4: years now since he was a teenage for a crime

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Speaker 4: that he did not commit. Now, let's go back to

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Speaker 4: the beginning. On April fifteenth, nineteen ninety four, there were

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Speaker 4: two men sitting in a Cadillac in Kansas City, Kansas,

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Speaker 4: when they were approached by a man with a shotgun.

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Speaker 4: These facts are not in dispute right correct, And what

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Speaker 4: we know is that four shots were fired into the car,

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Speaker 4: killing the passenger, Donielle Quinn instantly and the driver, Donald Ewing,

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Speaker 4: who died later in the hospital. And amazingly, within six hours,

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Speaker 4: they managed to find a guy who had nothing to

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Speaker 4: do with the crime, Lamont McIntyre, who was seventeen at

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Speaker 4: the time, and he was arrested and charged with two

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Speaker 4: counts of first degree murder in spite of a total

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Speaker 4: lack of any physical evidence. Connecting him to the crime.

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Speaker 4: How did this happen? Cheryl and Al jump in whenever

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Speaker 4: you want.

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Speaker 3: Lamont was arrested and prosecuted after police obtained three interviews

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Speaker 3: from witnesses, one of them never testified. But the taped

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Speaker 3: interviews of these eyewitnesses in a very serious crime, obviously

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Speaker 3: where someone can go to prison for the rest of

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Speaker 3: their life, amounted to a total of twenty taped minutes,

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Speaker 3: and one of the eyewitnesses was only interviewed for four minutes.

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Speaker 3: Is that an investigation?

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Speaker 7: What is that? So?

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Speaker 10: Al?

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Speaker 4: You've done a lot of research, and you were in

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Speaker 4: the FBI for quite a while, Is that right?

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Speaker 9: I was in the FBI for twenty five years. I

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Speaker 9: was a special agent. I specialized in investigating police corruption.

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Speaker 9: I worked in Chicago very successfully, and then in Kansas City.

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Speaker 3: Kansas Agent Generich was not involved with this murder case

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Speaker 3: at all when it happened. I knew mister Generich through

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Speaker 3: other cases and after he retired a number of years.

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Speaker 3: After he retired, actually and I was working on trying

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Speaker 3: to achieve Lamont's exoneration, I approached him to talk to

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Speaker 3: him about the Kansas City, Kansas Police Department and things

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Speaker 3: that I had uncovered in my investigation. And it was

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Speaker 3: at that point that Alan and I started talking about

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Speaker 3: some of the things he had learned while working for

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Speaker 3: the FBI, and they matched up with some of the

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Speaker 3: things I had uncovered in my investigation. And it was

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Speaker 3: because of that that he became a witness in this

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Speaker 3: case that I hoped to use at our hearing.

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Speaker 4: So, prior to Lamont's arrest, can we talk about what

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Speaker 4: was happening with this particular cop, whose name was Roger Glubski.

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Speaker 9: Sometime around nineteen eighty eight or so, I was able

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Speaker 9: to open an investigation into police corruption in Kansas City, Kansas,

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Speaker 9: And as the investigation went on over time, over many years,

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Speaker 9: we developed maybe somewhere between two fifteen police officers who

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Speaker 9: were titled the subjects of the investigation. Some of it

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Speaker 9: involved civil rights like beating people up, stealing their shoes

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Speaker 9: when they were walking down the street because the officer

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Speaker 9: liked the shoes, or in the case of Kallupski, you know,

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Speaker 9: sexual extortion. But most of it involved corruption involving drugs,

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Speaker 9: mostly cocaine. And in the course of this investigation, just

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Speaker 9: by talking to people, which is what I'm pretty good

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Speaker 9: at over time. You know, a number of people told

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Speaker 9: us about Gallupski extorting sex from black women, and he

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Speaker 9: liked black women. We never developed enough evidence on Gallupski

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Speaker 9: to prosecute him. That's the extent of my knowledge about Gulupski,

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Speaker 9: and I had no involvement whatsoever in the murder investigation.

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Speaker 4: Now, I always believed that that police were good, and

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Speaker 4: the police were on our side and they're there to

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Speaker 4: protect us all and so I always find these stories,

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Speaker 4: even as long as I've been working on this issue,

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Speaker 4: and I've got twenty five years now of experience, but

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Speaker 4: I always find these stories so just depressing and shocking,

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Speaker 4: and it flips everything upside down.

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Speaker 9: Well, like you, I was very naive until I went

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Speaker 9: to Chicago and then I sought you police corruption on

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Speaker 9: the mass of scale. But then when I got back

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Speaker 9: to Kansas City in eighty six and probably got involved

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Speaker 9: in Kansas City, Kansas in eighty eight, and I saw

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Speaker 9: the same activity there, it wasn't on the grand scale.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 9: It's that it's conducted in Chicago. It's basically police officers,

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Speaker 9: most of whom are white, picking on minorities, most of

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Speaker 9: whom are black, Some of them are hispanic, because when

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Speaker 9: you're a drug dealer, you know, you can't go to

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Speaker 9: the police or the FBI and say, hey, these cops

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Speaker 9: are stealing my drugs, these cops are stealing my drug money.

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Speaker 9: You basically have to you have to suck it up.

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Speaker 9: So that's what they do in Chicago, that's what they

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Speaker 9: do everywhere.

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Speaker 4: So so Lamont his troubles really began when his mom

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Speaker 4: was at a car with I guess was her boyfriend

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Speaker 4: at the time, Cheryl Right and Glubski approached the car

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Speaker 4: and told her to get out and threatened her with

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Speaker 4: the rest or the rest of her boyfriend unless she

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Speaker 4: agreed to come down to the police station. And then

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Speaker 4: the problems really began when she refused to become one

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Speaker 4: of his girls, so to speak. Right, I mean, obviously,

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Speaker 4: she was in a terrible situation where she's very vulnerable,

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Speaker 4: not able to defend herself from a cop who's willing

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Speaker 4: to go to almost any lengths to fulfill his desires.

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Speaker 4: She had a tremendous problem, and she decided that she

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Speaker 4: wanted to maintain her dignity really, right, And so what

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Speaker 4: seems like happened is that as a consequence of her action.

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Speaker 4: Golubski decided that he would target and frame her son

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Speaker 4: in something that is so evil that you just sit

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Speaker 4: there and say, I don't you know, it makes me

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Speaker 4: want to quit the human race. And not only that,

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Speaker 4: but he was also represented by an attorney who was

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Speaker 4: so incompetent that he was disbarred not too long after

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Speaker 4: the trial. So what kind of a chance did he

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Speaker 4: really have.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a lot to untangle right there. There was

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Speaker 3: an encounter that Lamont's mother had with the detective some

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Speaker 3: years earlier. I mean it was years actually before the

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Speaker 3: double homicide happened. And at the time of the double homicide,

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Speaker 3: my client was inexplicably dragged into the case. One of

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Speaker 3: the eyewitnesses told the police she thought the shooter looked

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Speaker 3: like a Lamont dating her Nie. Police never bothered to

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Speaker 3: find out what Lamont that was. They don't go ask

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Speaker 3: the niece what Lamont that was. They simply put another Lamont,

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Speaker 3: and it's undisputed, an entirely different Lamont, my client into

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Speaker 3: the case and somehow obtain this identification. What's interesting about

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Speaker 3: the lineup, and I've never seen anything like this before,

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Speaker 3: is three of the five photos were of young male

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Speaker 3: members of the McIntyre family.

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Speaker 4: You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to say, well,

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Speaker 4: that doesn't make a lot of sense. It's one perpetrator.

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Speaker 4: It's not like somebody said there were three brothers that

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Speaker 4: were involved. It's one perpetrator, you know. And then the

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Speaker 4: justice system, we know, has a tendency to chew people

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Speaker 4: up and spit them out when they are poor, particularly

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Speaker 4: if they're minorities and underrepresented. It's really it's not a

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Speaker 4: fair fight, is it.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean this whole thing was an impossible battle

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Speaker 3: for Lamont to begin with. I mean, first of all,

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Speaker 3: the investigation itself, I don't think really qualified is a

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Speaker 3: true investigation because so little was done. No evidence of

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Speaker 3: motive was ever uncovered. There was no physical evidence that

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Speaker 3: tied Lamont to the crime. There was not even any

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Speaker 3: evidence that he knew the two victims. There are backgrounds

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Speaker 3: of the two victims and who might have a motive

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Speaker 3: to harm them that was never investigated. There was an

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Speaker 3: eyewitness directly across the street who was never interviewed, whose

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Speaker 3: mother said, you know, she knows who the suspect is.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the failures and lapses and irregularities in this

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Speaker 3: case just go on and on. I mean, other than

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Speaker 3: the twenty minutes of taped interviews from the eyewitnesses, there

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Speaker 3: was very little else And the only evidence at trial

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Speaker 3: against were two eyewitnesses who were we contend confuse, coerced, manipulated,

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Speaker 3: threatened into implicating Lamont McIntyre, and that was it. There

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Speaker 3: was nothing else.

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Speaker 4: So you have this cop and this department that is

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Speaker 4: so corrupt isn't even the right word, but that's engaged

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Speaker 4: in so many illegal activities. And isn't it ironic and

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Speaker 4: tragic that Lamont is in prison, living in hell after

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Speaker 4: twenty four years and this cop who was from what

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Speaker 4: I've read, raping people, robbing people, dealing drugs, protecting drug dealers,

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Speaker 4: he's out. How is that? I mean? And that must

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Speaker 4: not sit well with you with your whole background either.

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Speaker 3: What I'm really hoping for, what our entire team is

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Speaker 3: hoping for, and what we have sought for a long time,

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Speaker 3: is a very full investigation into the activities of this detective.

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Speaker 3: There needs to be an investigation by people who have

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Speaker 3: the power and the authority and the ability to follow

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Speaker 3: all the leads, develop information, compel the testimony of witnesses

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Speaker 3: and obtain other evidence.

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Speaker 4: Ah, let me turn it to you for a second,

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Speaker 4: because we have not had somebody with your background and

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Speaker 4: experience on the show before. And I would venture to

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Speaker 4: say that you had a very, very difficult and dangerous job, right,

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Speaker 4: I mean, investigating cops, particularly when you're investigating cops who've

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Speaker 4: got a lot to hide, makes you a very unpopular person,

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Speaker 4: I would think. So, looking back on it, how did

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Speaker 4: this manage to go on for so long without somebody

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Speaker 4: coming along and saying, you know, besides you, hey, hey,

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Speaker 4: we're not going to tolerate this.

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Speaker 9: They don't give a shit. At the time we were

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Speaker 9: doing these investigations, the police chief of Kansas City, Kansas,

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Speaker 9: a guy named Tom Daly. He had previously been indicted

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Speaker 9: by the Federal Strike Force for extorting money at a

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Speaker 9: whorehouses along the Kaw River in Kansas. He was doing

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Speaker 9: that allegedly when it was a captain. He was acquitted

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Speaker 9: because it was a real weak case. But after being

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Speaker 9: acquitted for extortion, the city wound up eventually making him

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Speaker 9: the chief. Is that the actions, you know, wever responsible

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Speaker 9: a city administration or a police department. So he had

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Speaker 9: the chief over there Tom Daly, who had previously been

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Speaker 9: indicted by the FEDS. He despised the federal government. He

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Speaker 9: hated the US Attorney's Office and the FBI. And he's

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Speaker 9: the chief, he was part of it.

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Speaker 4: So you have this guy Golubski, who, in that scenario

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Speaker 4: is operating basically with impunity, right because he knows his

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Speaker 4: chief doesn't give a shit, and with the chief having literally,

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Speaker 4: well for what it sounds like, gotten away with that

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Speaker 4: particular pattern of activity as well as I'm sure other

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Speaker 4: things that he was doing. The people underneath him are

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Speaker 4: probably thinking, hey, this is great, no one's gonna touch us,

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Speaker 4: and they're right, and nobody did. So how frustrating was

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Speaker 4: that for you? There? You are really fighting an unwinnable war,

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Speaker 4: right You're there trying to protect the public from the

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Speaker 4: police force with a chief of police who not only

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Speaker 4: doesn't give a fuck, but doesn't want that. He wants you.

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Speaker 4: He probably wants you the fuck out of his hair,

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Speaker 4: so he could just go and run his little you know,

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Speaker 4: run the streets how he wants to.

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Speaker 9: Right when I started working over there, you had a person,

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Speaker 9: you know, some guy I knewed a lot of people

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Speaker 9: in the County jail, and they would say so and

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Speaker 9: so confronted me and stole my money, stole my drugs.

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Speaker 9: You go, what's the cops name? I don't know his name,

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Speaker 9: you know what's he looked like? Well, you know he's

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Speaker 9: some Well you go to the police. The police did

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Speaker 9: not have photographs of their police officers, So if a

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Speaker 9: victim came in there alleging that so and so officer

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Speaker 9: robbed from me, extorted me, they didn't even have photographs

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Speaker 9: to show people so they could identify who the police

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Speaker 9: officer was. So good luck, you know, through the US

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Speaker 9: Attorney's Office, through Julie Robinson, who was a prosecutor at

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Speaker 9: the time, we subpoenaed photographs of every sworn officer in

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Speaker 9: the Kansas City, Kansas Police Department, and there was hell

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Speaker 9: to pay for that. I was almost removed from the

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Speaker 9: investigation because of that.

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Speaker 10: You know.

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Speaker 3: I think one of the problems is that other law

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Speaker 3: enforcement officers don't want to investigate law enforcement and as

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Speaker 3: a general rule, I think they find it distasteful something

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Speaker 3: they would rather avoid, and there is a tendency to

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Speaker 3: minimize misconduct. I found that really pretty shocking.

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Speaker 4: Not in light of it, everything else we're talking about.

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Speaker 4: But I could see how you would, and it really

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Speaker 4: gets easier and easier to see how these wrongful convictions

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Speaker 4: are so common. I mean, here we have an interesting situation, right,

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Speaker 4: We're talking to Al, who's in there with his badge,

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Speaker 4: working for the Federal Bureau of Investigation and basically being

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Speaker 4: told go fuck himself. So what chance does a seventeen

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Speaker 4: year old black kid from the poorer side of town.

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Speaker 4: What chance does he have against this blue wall, this

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Speaker 4: blue monster that was out to get him. He had

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Speaker 4: no chance. So now fast forward to twenty four years later,

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Speaker 4: the monsets in the prison studying reading, by all accounts,

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Speaker 4: a model prisoner, somebody who maintains a positive outlook in

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Speaker 4: spite of this. You know what can only be described

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Speaker 4: as the worst fate that can befall individual, to be

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Speaker 4: concarcerated with something you didn't do for the rest of

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Speaker 4: your life. But now we have hope, right, I mean,

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Speaker 4: he has hope thanks to you and the years of

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Speaker 4: work that you've done in this case, in Al and

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Speaker 4: other brave people who have devoted their time and in

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Speaker 4: some cases probably even risk their own personal safety to

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Speaker 4: try to get justice. In this case, what does it

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Speaker 4: look like now, what happens next? Tell us what's going on.

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Speaker 3: We have a evidentiary hearing coming up in October and

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Speaker 3: we intend to present somewhere between forty and fifty witnesses

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Speaker 3: who provide very powerful testimony on various aspects of the case.

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Speaker 3: There was almost nothing really to support the conviction to

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Speaker 3: begin with, nothing other than the testimony of the two

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Speaker 3: eye witnesses, and I believe that has been thoroughly shredded

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Speaker 3: at this point through recantations and admissions and the result

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Speaker 3: of other investigations. And we are also focusing on the

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Speaker 3: very troubling misconduct in the case. It is intimately connected

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Speaker 3: to how the investigation was conducted, and we're going to

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Speaker 3: bring all that out and show how we believe this

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Speaker 3: went wrong, and we very much hope to be successful.

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Speaker 4: What's the data of the hearing October twelfth. October twelfth,

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Speaker 4: And is this in a federal court.

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Speaker 3: We are in Windott County District Court, which is a

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Speaker 3: state court. My client is litigating what's called a successive

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Speaker 3: petition under sixtysh fifteen oh seven, and you have essentially

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Speaker 3: a procedural barrier to get over before you can get

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Speaker 3: back into court, but we do have this evidentiary hearing

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Speaker 3: schedule that we are very very excited about. One of

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Speaker 3: the most compelling things about the case we haven't mentioned

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Speaker 3: this yet, is that the families of both victims have

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Speaker 3: always known my client is innocent and are very much

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Speaker 3: squarely supporting the quest to free him. They know that

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Speaker 3: they did not get justice. Their families did not get justice.

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Speaker 4: And that's Cheryl. In your experience, it's not a common thing, right,

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Speaker 4: I mean, most of the cases I've seen, even in

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Speaker 4: the face of what could be overwhelming evidence to the contrary,

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Speaker 4: the victim's family sometimes stick with you what they've been

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Speaker 4: told all along because they just can't. They can't even

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Speaker 4: process the idea that they may have been lied to

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Speaker 4: and that the wrong person may have been serving time

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Speaker 4: for the murder of their loved one. So in this case,

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Speaker 4: this is a very unusual scenario.

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Speaker 8: Isn't it.

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Speaker 7: It is?

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Speaker 3: And one of the eyewitnesses is related to both of

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Speaker 3: the victims, and she her family and the family of

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Speaker 3: the second victim to whom she's a bit more distantly related,

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Speaker 3: have always told me that they have known from the

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Speaker 3: beginning that the authorities got the wrong man. They have

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Speaker 3: always known this. They've made periodic efforts to correct this,

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Speaker 3: to a d rest this, to try and get some justice,

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Speaker 3: all without success.

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Speaker 4: And they were never tested, they never called it testify

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Speaker 4: a trial.

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Speaker 3: One of them was not called to testify. Another has

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Speaker 3: admitted that she lied, that she was coerced. The other

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Speaker 3: eyewitness seems frankly, very perplexed by her testimony, and it's

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Speaker 3: very clear that it's an eyewitness a misidentification based on manipulation.

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Speaker 4: And we know also that had this trial taken place

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Speaker 4: twenty years later or so, with everything that's known now

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Speaker 4: about the unreliability of eyewitness identification, there's a very good

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Speaker 4: chance that that would have been discredited because there was

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Speaker 4: no other evidence connecting him to the crime.

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Speaker 8: You take a person who's traumatized, who has just witnessed

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Speaker 8: a really horrific event, and they can be pretty easy

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Speaker 8: to pressure or manipulate. And in fact, this witness provided

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Speaker 8: in a tape statement my client's last name, a man

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Speaker 8: she did not know and had never heard of, which

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Speaker 8: raises the very interesting question of who gave her the name.

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Speaker 8: It was undisputed at trial that she did not know

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Speaker 8: my client. Yet the fact that there was an original

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Speaker 8: tape statement where she provided his name never came out

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Speaker 8: that was never admitted at trial. She also stated wrongly

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Speaker 8: that my client was the Lamont who had dated her niece.

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Speaker 8: At trial undisputed that that was not true. It was

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Speaker 8: an entirely different Lamont who was in fact identified by

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Speaker 8: his name to the jury, an entirely different person. So,

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Speaker 8: I mean, the whole thing is troubling beginning to end,

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Speaker 8: really a perfect storm of chaos and horror and misconduct,

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Speaker 8: things being done improperly.

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Speaker 4: And if there wasn't already enough to chew on, this

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Speaker 4: is the part that really just sets me off. His

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Speaker 4: court a point that Attorney Gary Long was on supervised

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Speaker 4: obation at the time of the trial for failing to

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Speaker 4: diligently handle three prior cases. He was suspended from the

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Speaker 4: bar a couple of years later for failure to adequately

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Speaker 4: hnder a separate criminal case. And he was this bar

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Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety eight. How is it even possible that

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Speaker 4: in a life or death situation, because this is really

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Speaker 4: somebody's life that they were playing with, right, how could

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Speaker 4: it be in this great country of ours that you

401
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Speaker 4: take somebody and you say, you know what We're going

402
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Speaker 4: to give you a lawyer who's already messed up three times.

403
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Speaker 4: You know it's I don't know, you know, it doesn't

404
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Speaker 4: make any sense.

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Speaker 9: Well, when I said, nobody gives a shitt, do you

406
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Speaker 9: understand what I mean? Do you know that that you

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Speaker 9: know that Tara Morehead. Do you know she's now a

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Speaker 9: federal prosecutor.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so Tara Moorehead was the prosecutor in this case.

410
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Speaker 4: Obviously didn't see anything wrong with her prosecuting a case

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Speaker 4: in which a young man's life was at stake in

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Speaker 4: a very real way in front of a judge with

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Speaker 4: whom she had carried on an affair a few years earlier.

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Speaker 4: I think most reasonable people would agree that one or

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Speaker 4: the other should have been recused from this particular scenario

416
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Speaker 4: because even if they were saints, and obviously they weren't.

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Speaker 4: Because she's also the same woman from what I've read,

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Speaker 4: who threatened a witness who tried to come forward with

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Speaker 4: the truth with losing custody of her own children. But yes,

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Speaker 4: so now she's moved up the ladder. Seems like all

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Speaker 4: the bad guys have won here. Al what the fuck?

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Speaker 9: Well, I think Tara Moorehead's currently married to a police officer.

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Speaker 9: I think there's some other prosecutors over in the federal

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Speaker 9: US Attorney's Office that are married to other police officers.

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Speaker 9: So you're not going to expect them to investigate police corruption, are.

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Speaker 4: You, well, I guess that would make it tricky, and.

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Speaker 9: They're not going to do it, and they don't.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there is so much that could be investigated

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Speaker 3: that ought to be investigated, And you know, I should

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Speaker 3: also point out that sexual misconduct among police officers is

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Speaker 3: not unusual in some departments. When you have poor and

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Speaker 3: vulnerable people encounter folks with ultimate authority over them, ultimate

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Speaker 3: authority in that particular moment, you know, those things can

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Speaker 3: happen all too easily, and they do, and they happen frequently.

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Speaker 9: You know, when I was an agent, I'm about six

436
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,239
Speaker 9: foot four. I had a gun, a badge and a

437
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 9: radio and everything. At nighttime when I was on my

438
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 9: way home or on the weekends, I would not drive

439
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 9: through Kansas City, Kansas unless I was accompanied by another

440
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 9: FBI agent.

441
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 4: So because you thought they might have run you off

442
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 4: the road or something else.

443
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 10: They could do anything.

444
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 9: They could pull me over and not saying they don't

445
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 9: know who I was, and they could say I pulled

446
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 9: a gun and they could shoot me. Well, I have

447
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 9: all that power and authority. What does some little black

448
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 9: kid on the street have? And I was afraid?

449
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 4: That's uh. I got to take a minute to process that.

450
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 4: That's a very powerful statement, and it really does bring

451
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 4: it into perspective. I hope that in exposing the story

452
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 4: of Lamont and some of the things that you've shared

453
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 4: out that people, you know, get their backs up and

454
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 4: get get angry and get involved. These are just people,

455
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 4: They're just regular people, and they're they're being so terribly

456
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 4: abused and victimized by people who are supposed to protect them.

457
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 4: I don't it makes me sick.

458
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: I should say that the fear and the terror that

459
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: some of the citizens experience cannot be overstated. I mean,

460
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 3: you have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,

461
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 3: as I said in that moment, unchecked authority. There's enormous

462
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 3: fear of the police and enormous, sometimes unmovable resistance to

463
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 3: getting involved in anything that has to do with the

464
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 3: criminal justice system. I've spent some years, honestly, just earning

465
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 3: the trust of some people in the community so that

466
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 3: they will sit down and speak with me so that

467
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 3: we can investigate the case. Nobody wants anything to do

468
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 3: with a case you say, courthouse people walk the other way.

469
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 3: They don't want anything to do with that. And ultimately

470
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 3: we have been successful in securing some very good witnesses

471
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 3: because they did want to help someone they viewed as innocent.

472
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 3: And you know, I should point out here that all

473
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: of the street talk we have ever heard in the

474
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 3: community is that Lamon is innocent, the guy who got

475
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 3: wrongfully convicted. It's like everyone knows. The whole community knows,

476
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 3: the victims' families know, everyone knows Lamont did not do this.

477
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 3: Everyone knows.

478
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 4: I'm sure people are listening, doing and saying, God, this

479
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 4: is horrible. But what can I do? How could I

480
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 4: possibly help? So if you have any ideas on that

481
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 4: to share with the audience, Cheryl, let's start with you

482
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 4: and then go to al and give you last words.

483
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 4: Take it away.

484
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 3: In a general sense, I'd say, support honest policing, be

485
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: grateful for the good and honest officers that you know,

486
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 3: and when you see wrongdoing done by someone with a badge,

487
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 3: point it out, don't be afraid to make a complaint

488
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 3: and hope and pray and I don't know, make phone calls,

489
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 3: write letters and ask for an investigation of the misconduct

490
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 3: that has come to the surface in this case.

491
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 9: Now, the problem is working police corruption. You're not very

492
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 9: popular and even the work I did here were Kansas City, Kansas.

493
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 9: You're not very popular. I know, a worried about being popular,

494
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 9: you know. So it didn't affect me, but there's a

495
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 9: lot of agents that simply don't want to do it

496
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 9: because they want to be popular. They want people to

497
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 9: like them.

498
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, we need more guys like you out there, because

499
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 4: otherwise it's it's the system's it feels. I mean, I'm

500
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 4: so depressed after talking to you and hearing that it's

501
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 4: actually even worse than I thought it was. It makes

502
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 4: me insane, but it energizes me. Okay, thanks you guys.

503
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 4: I'll be there in the courtroom with you in spirit

504
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 4: on October twelfth.

505
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: Thank you.

506
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 10: Thank you.

507
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 11: You have a prepaid call from a monk and in

508
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 11: me at Kansas Department of Corrections Lansing Correctional Facility to

509
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 11: accept this call, press or say five to review. This

510
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 11: call will be recorded and subject to monitoring at any time.

511
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 11: You may be speaking.

512
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 4: Now, we just concluded a disturbing and really terrifying interview

513
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 4: with al Jenrich, the retired FBI agent and Cheryl Pilot,

514
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 4: who are doing such incredible work, heroic work on a

515
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 4: case that keeps me up at night, in the case

516
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 4: of a man named Lamont McIntyre. And now we have

517
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 4: on the phone from maximum security prison in Kansas, Lamont himself. Lamont,

518
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 4: Welcome to the show. Thank you have so, Lamont, I

519
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 4: want to go back to the beginning, when you grew

520
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 4: up and how this all started. I've seen photos of

521
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 4: you with your family. Looked like you had not an

522
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 4: easy but a happy childhood. Is that fair?

523
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 7: Yeah?

524
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 4: Can you just describe what it was like. I've heard

525
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 4: you talk about Christmas and stuff.

526
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 7: Ah, we tighten it. You know. It's like my mother

527
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 7: was just an only parent in the house and he

528
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 7: was close my siblings. We did everything together. We stayed

529
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 7: in one house, you know, we took care of each other.

530
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 7: So glowing up with me was my family was a

531
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 7: big game. We didn't really fight about a lot of stuff.

532
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 7: You know. It was me and my three brothers and

533
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 7: my sister, my odest sister. My mother worked a lot,

534
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 7: so my sister kind of watched after us a little

535
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 7: bit some other family members. I used to go to

536
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 7: my family member's house, my uncles, and be around them.

537
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 7: Our mother was at work. I kind of still stayed

538
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 7: around family outside my home, so real family.

539
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 4: Oriented and where you grew up. You had no idea

540
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 4: at this time that the police force was really as

541
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 4: corrupt as anyone could possibly imagine until this terrible incident occurred.

542
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 4: And I want to go back to that. What happened.

543
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 4: You were a seventeen year old kid going along with

544
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 4: your life, trying to make it in a difficult place,

545
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 4: and then one day out of the blue, you get

546
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 4: arrested and don't even know what's going on or what happened.

547
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 7: Uh, that's exactly what happened. And I was it was

548
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 7: a typical day. It was like a Friday, typical day.

549
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 7: I was enrolled in a downity college program where there's

550
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 7: alternative school where they would help you get your high

551
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 7: school the phone and then they'll get you in college.

552
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 7: So it was like a little degree program I was

553
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 7: a part of, and it was just a Friday. I

554
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 7: wouldn't panish this in the time, or I wasn't looking

555
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 7: at what I was doing. I wasn't thinking about it

556
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 7: because it's a typical day. And I get a car

557
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 7: phone call saying the police is over my grandmother's house

558
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 7: looking for me. Call my mother. We go to the

559
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 7: police station, and they started talking about two murders. You

560
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 7: know what I'm saying. They would ask me questions about

561
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 7: an event that happened that day, and I had no

562
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 7: answers for him because I didn't know they were saying

563
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 7: or what they were talking about. So from that moment,

564
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 7: I was arrested, charged, and eventually convicted of two murders

565
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 7: that I had nothing to do with about.

566
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 4: And we know now that they were deliberately targeting you

567
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 4: because of this particular police officer who was up to

568
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 4: all kinds of criminal activity himself. And that's the irony

569
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 4: of this is that he belongs in jail. And I'm

570
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 4: hoping that by the end of this that's exactly what's

571
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 4: going to happen. But the idea that this system, this

572
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 4: so called justice system, had made a decision that you

573
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 4: were going to be their guy. There was this double murder, right,

574
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 4: two guys sitting in a car. They were involved in

575
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 4: drug activity, They were dealers. We now know also that

576
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 4: one of them had been beaten by the guys he

577
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 4: was working for in the drug business. Right, he was

578
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 4: working as a doorman in a crack then, and he

579
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 4: had feared for his life, And in fact, he had

580
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 4: good reason to because I guess he from what I've learned,

581
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 4: he has been he had been stealing from them, So

582
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 4: that every reason to know that this was a drug hit.

583
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 4: And you weren't involved in that gang or that business.

584
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 4: Did you know these guys.

585
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 7: I didn't know the witnesses, I didn't know the victims,

586
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 7: and I wasn't connected to it at all. That's why

587
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 7: so it so hard for me to understand how somebody

588
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 7: that could happen, because and I was. I was forefront,

589
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 7: I was forward about everything. I didn't tried to hide

590
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 7: nothing I was. I was open to what they wanted

591
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 7: to ask me about or whatever, because I knew that

592
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 7: what they were talking about at that time, I had

593
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 7: nothing to do with it, and I wasn't involved. Was

594
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 7: I responsible for the death of those men. So I

595
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 7: still don't know to this day, like what happened, like

596
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 7: or how I became the main suspect. I don't know

597
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 7: how that happened. Still to this day, I don't know

598
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 7: what the police officer's motive was to implement me or

599
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 7: to plan tell me, or they don't know that this day.

600
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 4: What happened, Well, it does seem like now with everything

601
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 4: we've learned, that the officer involved, the first one who

602
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 4: arrived on the scene was an officer named Glubski, and

603
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 4: he had it out for you because of a family situation, right.

604
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 4: I mean, he is a white guy who had a

605
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 4: proclivity for women of color and when he didn't get

606
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 4: his way, he would exact revenge. And so what it

607
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 4: seems like is that in this particular case, he targeted

608
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 4: you because your mom wasn't having any part of that.

609
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 4: And that's what makes this particularly sinister and sick. You

610
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 4: end up going to trial, and I find it interesting,

611
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 4: among all the other things in your case, that they

612
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 4: offered you a plea bargain, right, and you didn't take it.

613
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 7: A woman in the rest in the plea bargain, I

614
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 7: don't know. I don't even know I was there. So

615
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 7: it's like they telling me this stuff. They say something happened.

616
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 7: I'm sitting there and I'm listening. They keep saying things

617
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 7: to me, but I can't understand how I'm sitting in

618
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 7: that situation and I don't know nothing about the crime itself,

619
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 7: so plea bar goes far from my mom. I was

620
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 7: thinking about the plee barley.

621
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 4: And why I find that and why I brought that up, Lamont,

622
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 4: And I've seen the mugshot picture of you, and it

623
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 4: really hurt my heart because I could see in your

624
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 4: face just how confused you were and scared of a

625
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 4: situation that you couldn't possibly imagine what's happening at that time.

626
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 4: I also would think that if you were guilty and

627
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 4: they're offering you a deal, and you know your chances

628
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 4: of winning in the court are going to be low

629
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 4: because they have all these cops and everybody else that's

630
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 4: going to testify this, you would have taken the plea bargain.

631
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 4: Anybody with their right mind would take a plea bargain.

632
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 4: You're not crazy, are you. I'm not right, you don't

633
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 4: sound you don't sound crazy at all. So in the

634
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 4: situation like this, I mean, we have in this country

635
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 4: over ninety percent and other cases end up in plea bargains.

636
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 4: So had you been guilty, that would have been a

637
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 4: very logical thing to do. But as an innocent person

638
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 4: and probably somebody who still trusted in the system. You

639
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 4: went forward with your right to a trial. And that's

640
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 4: where things get really squirrely too, because you were represented

641
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 4: by a guy who they knew your court appointed lawyer.

642
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 4: They knew this guy was incompetent because he had already

643
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 4: been disciplined for three previous cases that he had completely botched.

644
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 4: It almost sounds like they did it on purpose. They

645
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 4: assigned a guy who didn't go and interview witnesses, who

646
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 4: really didn't do anything he was supposed to do. And

647
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 4: what was that like? Were you aware at that time

648
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 4: that this guy wasn't I mean, I don't even know

649
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 4: if it was really on your side, but I mean,

650
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 4: as you're watching these proceedings, what were you thinking?

651
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 7: Well, I thought he was. He presented himself like a lawyer.

652
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 7: He presented himself like a person in there o Moby

653
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 7: had to take care of this business, and he seeing

654
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 7: real professional at first. So I didn't know what to

655
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 7: expect because I've never been in that situation before anyway,

656
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 7: So his first impression was for me, it was a

657
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 7: good impression because I didn't know what a lawyer was

658
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 7: supposed to do or I was so ignorant to the

659
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 7: law and how things worked. I just believed in the

660
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 7: justice system at that time. I really did. I thought

661
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 7: there was no possible way, being an innocent person or

662
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 7: person that has nothing to do with that crime, that

663
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 7: I would be found guilty. So I didn't really pay

664
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 7: too much attention to the credibility of this lawyer. It

665
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 7: didn't down on me that I would be found guilty

666
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 7: of the crime that I had nothing to do with.

667
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 7: So I didn't really think about it in those times.

668
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 7: I was just thinking, you can give me any lawyer,

669
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 7: anybody from anywhere, and it'd be okay because once they

670
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,280
Speaker 7: realized they had the wrong person to get ironed out

671
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 7: in trial. That's what I was thinking. But I didn't

672
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 7: plan all. I didn't think that people would get on

673
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 7: the stand and lie. They was gonna fabricate, and I

674
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 7: didn't think that was gonna happen. I had no idea

675
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 7: that they had already made it in their mind that

676
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 7: I was going to be escaped goal for this particular crime,

677
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 7: so ably being needed at a law have they worked

678
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 7: in the justice system. I believe in the justice system

679
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 7: at that time, I really did.

680
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 4: I think all of us do when we're kids, especially

681
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 4: brought up in a good home like you were. You

682
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 4: brought up to believe that people are good and that

683
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 4: the system is going to work for you. And then

684
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 4: you had a lawyer who, had he been competent, I

685
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 4: still think would have won your case in spite of

686
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 4: all this, because of the simple fact that it was

687
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 4: an easy case. The witnesses were not credible at all.

688
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 4: We now know that they also withheld exculpatory evidence, and

689
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 4: I'm sure that's going to come to light next month

690
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 4: when you have your hearing. So you really didn't have

691
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 4: a fair chance, especially not with a lawyer who was incompetent.

692
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 4: And ultimately, let's not forget that this particular lawyer was

693
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 4: disbarred not too long after your trial. And again, for

694
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 4: the listeners out there, think about that, this is a

695
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 4: guy who had been disciplined in numerous cases prior to

696
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 4: Lamont's and then ultimately gets disbarred when the extent of

697
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 4: his gross incompetence is brought to the Supreme Court of

698
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 4: Kansas the attention of the Supreme Court, and then he

699
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 4: voluntarily gave up his license to practice law. And that

700
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 4: wasn't the end of the nightmare. We now know too

701
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 4: that your appellate lawyer was disbarred. I mean, you can't

702
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 4: even make this stuff up. So what happened, Like now

703
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 4: you're in the courtroom, the jury goes out, the arguments

704
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 4: have been made. You saw these witnesses get up and lie.

705
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 4: You saw these police officers get up and lie. Your

706
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 4: defense made whatever arguments they made. Did you believe that

707
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 4: they would come back and declare you innocent?

708
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 7: I did. I did being I did. I just didn't

709
00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 7: know that. I didn't know that people can they the

710
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 7: sejury thing like the jury selection and our course ran

711
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 7: and I had no idea that this is how the

712
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 7: system worked. I didn't know that they found me guilty

713
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 7: based on false evidence or the kind of evidence that

714
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 7: was presented by a certain district attorney. So basically, what

715
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 7: she did was set the stage to make it seem

716
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 7: as if I was guilty and I did something long

717
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 7: and I had a reason for doing this. So the

718
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 7: jury heard evidence it didn't really exist. They heard stuff

719
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 7: about me that wasn't even about Lama Mcatide, and she

720
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 7: just kind of made stuff up. They told his story

721
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 7: and the jury believed it. But at the time before

722
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 7: they came back with a guilty verdict. I still didn't

723
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 7: think I'll be found guilty because the whole time I'm

724
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 7: sitting there and the whole time I'm going through the

725
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 7: process of getting to trial, I still had no knowledge

726
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 7: of the actual crimes. So I'm thinking, with my young

727
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 7: mind being naive, that there's no way the jury can

728
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 7: find me guilty when I'm really not guilty, when I

729
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 7: had nothing to do with it. I'm not tied to

730
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 7: it at all. The witnesses, the victims, I'm not tied

731
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 7: to it. I wasn't in the area when it happened,

732
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 7: so I'm thinking it it gets dyed out the jury

733
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 7: have come back. I didn't think I was ever gonna

734
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 7: be found guilty. I didn't think that I was. It

735
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 7: was shocking when they came back with a guilty verdict.

736
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 7: I was I was heart broken.

737
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 4: And can you talk about that that moment, which is

738
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 4: the most devastating moment of your life.

739
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 7: When they came in, I noticed that those jury no

740
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 7: one looked me in my face, no one looked looked up.

741
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 7: Everyone came in looking down at the floor. So I

742
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 7: kind of had an eerie feeling, but I still had

743
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 7: hope that it would work out in the right way.

744
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 7: So when they read the verdict and they said guilty,

745
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 7: it's like I seen my whole life flash before me

746
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 7: and I and for that moment, I froze and I

747
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 7: and I was sitting there and I stood up, and

748
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 7: I just remember saying something. I was screaming something, you know,

749
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 7: to the effects of I'm not guilty, and you got

750
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 7: the wrong person whatever. And I felt someone hold me

751
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 7: or grab me from behind, and I was in shot,

752
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 7: so I didn't really I was like a lost moment.

753
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 7: But I turned around. I see my mother hold me, screaming,

754
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 7: crying like, don't take my baby away from me, don't

755
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 7: take my baby. And I'm looking at her and I

756
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 7: realized that this is a serious situation. Now I'm but

757
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 7: it still didn't feel real. It was my life in

758
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 7: my situation, but it didn't feel like my life or

759
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,720
Speaker 7: my situation. I felt like I was outside of myself

760
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 7: looking at this event happened and I couldn't stop it.

761
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 7: So I was in shot. That shot lasted for a

762
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 7: few years after that. I was in shot. I just

763
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 7: couldn't There was nothing inside of me or my intellect

764
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 7: or my experiences in life that prepared me for that moment.

765
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 7: It was just something I just couldn't deal with. I

766
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 7: just didn't know how to deal with that. So emotionally,

767
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 7: I was just distract I was hurt, I was I

768
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 7: was frustrated, I was confused. I just it was just

769
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 7: a horrible moment.

770
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 3: Man.

771
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 4: And when you talk about your whole life flashing in

772
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 4: front of you as a seventeen year old, did you

773
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 4: have plans, did you have a career in mind? What

774
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 4: was the outlook for the future where you're still just

775
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 4: trying to figure it out?

776
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, it was things I wanted to do. It was

777
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 7: just I was misguided a lot, and I was just

778
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 7: in a place where everybody around me was either dying

779
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 7: or going to jail or I was just in the

780
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 7: kind of environment that didn't produce a lot of hope

781
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 7: or didn't have I didn't have a lot of people

782
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 7: to look up to or emulate, nothing like that. But

783
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 7: I did enjoy taking care of my family. So my

784
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 7: life was just basically about trying to take care of

785
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 7: my family the best way I knew how, or to

786
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 7: look out for my loved ones. You know, I had

787
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 7: skills and things I could do, like I was a barber,

788
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 7: I was coherisons I was twelve or you know, I

789
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 7: was a comedian. You know, I had these in the

790
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 7: back of my mind. I wanted to be a comedian,

791
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 7: and I had things I wanted to do. I just

792
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 7: didn't know how to get to where I wanted to be.

793
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 7: But I still didn't think that my life was of

794
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 7: being in prison or going to jail or being in

795
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 7: this kind of situation. And I wanted a life. I

796
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 7: didn't know how to obtain the kind of life that

797
00:45:58,520 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 7: I wanted.

798
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 4: So now hold on. Now you're convicted of a double

799
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 4: murder and sense to life in prison? Where did they take.

800
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 7: You to the process of life? From the funding and evicted?

801
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 7: Then the county about too much? Then you go to

802
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 7: Fennister now in Juanna County. They gave me two life

803
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 7: sentences in toront and second and after that they send

804
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 7: me to a content center which we call hardy you

805
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 7: when they see you to determine what classification it would be,

806
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,760
Speaker 7: what custody will be in. I was the sided backs custody.

807
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 7: So from there they give me to prison. They've been

808
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 7: in prison at all? Yeah, I was in Hudson. That's

809
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 7: a that's a prison in Kansas. They called Lady in

810
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 7: the School one of those tough prisons. You know what, people,

811
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 7: you know, it's a prison. It's like the work idea,

812
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 7: you have a prison? Is that more? It's the world

813
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 7: and at all this dark negative and feel it's hopelessness,

814
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 7: it's all those stays negativity.

815
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 4: I mean, you paint a picture that this really is. Yeah.

816
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 4: I don't even know what to say to that. It

817
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 4: just sounds absolutely terrifying and horrible, especially for somebody so

818
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 4: young as you prefer, anybody, especially an innocent person. And

819
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,760
Speaker 4: then I also want to talk about a very unique

820
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 4: aspect of your case, which is the fact that it's

821
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 4: one of the few cases I've ever seen where the

822
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 4: victim's family has been saying for almost the entire time

823
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 4: you've been locked up that you are not the guy, right.

824
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 4: That is not something that we see in this business.

825
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 4: And I think it's a very brave thing that they've done,

826
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 4: that they've stood up for you steadfastly from the beginning.

827
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,720
Speaker 4: Have they been in touch with you? Have you spoken

828
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 4: to them?

829
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 8: Nah?

830
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 7: They spoke to my legal team, and they spoke to

831
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 7: the people who's putting together my defense and stuff. Like that,

832
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 7: but not personally. I haven't, you know, it's something what

833
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 7: I read in the newspapers or send the news or

834
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 7: something like that. But no, I never spoke to nobody

835
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 7: like that. They tell me what they tell me. I'm

836
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 7: always getting a word on what's being said or how

837
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 7: to fetch this field to pitch the family feel so

838
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 7: I'm aware.

839
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 4: I also wanted to ask, what is a typical day

840
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 4: like for you on the inside? How do you get

841
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 4: through it? What's the schedule a typical day?

842
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 7: Typical day is re readjusted. It's like from one day

843
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 7: to the next is finding a way to get by

844
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 7: for one day, learn something from my days, and then

845
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 7: I just try to it just sucks. I gotta repeat it.

846
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 7: Like if I have a bad day or I'm frustrated

847
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 7: for one day, I go to sleep, wake up to

848
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 7: repeat this day again. So I try to find the

849
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 7: best I can. I get the best I can out

850
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 7: of a day, because waking up and repeat it is

851
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 7: the anxiety that's where all that the worst stuff is.

852
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 7: Knowing that for the last twenty three years and two

853
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 7: hundred something months and eleven hundred weeks in eight thousand days,

854
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 7: it's the same thing. It never changes. So I devote

855
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 7: my time to reading and studying and write. I write

856
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,439
Speaker 7: music and write poetry. I try to keep my mind

857
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 7: free as possible. I try to stay out of prison mentally.

858
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 7: I try not to. I'm not into prison politics. I'm

859
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 7: not in prison mentally, but I'm here. I have to

860
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 7: be in my body here, but I try to keep

861
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 7: my mind far from as place as I can. So

862
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 7: it's just a bunch of moments of readjusting every day,

863
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 7: Like today it's gonna be different than tomorrow because I

864
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 7: feel there whether I have to readjust readjust you know,

865
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 7: And like I said, I gotta I got a support team,

866
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 7: a system of people that's emplaced it always there for me.

867
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 7: That's all support me. And I have a lot of

868
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 7: love people that love me and care about me. So

869
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 7: I focused on that. That's why my attention goes so Finally,

870
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 7: if it's really it's bad. It used to be a

871
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 7: lot worse than it is. Now I'm starting to see

872
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 7: I'm coming alive now because I can see a light

873
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 7: and then it just toddle. I've been there for so long,

874
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 7: so I'm better now. But yeah, it wasn't so good before.

875
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 7: It's better now. But it was always said to wake

876
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 7: up and have to repeat this same cycle over and

877
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 7: over again. That stuff is another driving person crazy.

878
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 4: How in the world can somebody in your situation just

879
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 4: not give up? You sound like an incredible, incredible person.

880
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 7: I got a credit that the God and my relationship

881
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 7: with God always managed to place good people in my life. Man,

882
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 7: I've had a support system. Follow the moments is a

883
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 7: lot of moments. While I feel like it, what's the point,

884
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 7: you know, to keep going to wake up every day

885
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 7: to have to deal with the exact same nightmare kind

886
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 7: to SKay from the night before. But I had my mother,

887
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 7: like she never gave up on me from day one.

888
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 7: Like when the worst moments of my life, you know,

889
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 7: I'm felt like I just couldn't do it no more,

890
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 7: feel like I couldn't take another step, she would show up.

891
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 7: And when she would grab me and hold me and

892
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 7: look me my faith and tell me this is not

893
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 7: my life I'm passing through, this is not my destination.

894
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 7: And so I had a lot of support my family,

895
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 7: and I gave my life to God and I pray

896
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 7: a lot, I meditated a lot. So initially I was

897
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 7: kind of in this dark place where I was just

898
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:42,479
Speaker 7: so hurt and sad and depressed. So I kept people

899
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 7: kept coming to my life. There was like becons of

900
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 7: light and hope for me. And I thank God for

901
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 7: all those people came into my life and supported me.

902
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 7: They sure that I always had something to look forward to,

903
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 7: because this is a dark place. It's a dark situation

904
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 7: where if you don't have enough. For me, it was

905
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 7: just support. I have families important. Then years later Sheryl

906
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 7: and Centurion Ministries and Innocent Projects, they kept start coming

907
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 7: into my life. They breathe life into me like my

908
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 7: second win. And I'm grateful for those people, everybody who

909
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 7: supported me and everybody who put forth effort go out

910
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 7: every day and do something that helped me get my

911
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 7: life back. I'm very grateful for those people.

912
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 4: Well that's I mean, that says it all. I mean,

913
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 4: it says so much about your your character that I

914
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 4: really I'm having trouble composing the right words to say.

915
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 4: But I am glad that you brought up a number

916
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 4: of things. Laman. Can you talk a little bit about

917
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 4: the Centurion Ministries and their role as well as the

918
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 4: role that the Innocence Project and which Innocence Project it

919
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 4: was that's been able to help to get this case

920
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 4: to the point it is now where we could actually

921
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 4: see light at the end of the tunnel.

922
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 7: Okay, that was a other process in itself. Like I

923
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 7: had written so many different innocent projects and different people,

924
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 7: the President of the United States, it's just playing at

925
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 7: the time I was writing, even wrote Open, I was

926
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 7: writing now kind of people trying to get some type

927
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 7: of help or some type of support. And after like

928
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 7: the fiftieth sixtieth letter, I got a response back from

929
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 7: the Centurion Ministries in New Jersey in print in New Jersey,

930
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 7: and that was in the first time they responded to me.

931
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 7: It was in ninety six, ninety seven, but they told

932
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 7: me that my case had to be dead in the water,

933
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,240
Speaker 7: so it was kind of early in my pill process.

934
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 7: So they said they weren't able to help me at

935
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 7: that time. So I've ben teagued with my pill process.

936
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 7: So two thousand and one I contacted him again and

937
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 7: they started corresponding with me. Now from two thousand and one,

938
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,720
Speaker 7: they kept writing me, responding and saying they're not taking

939
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 7: my case. They just looking at it to see if

940
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 7: it has any mariors, to see if it's a case

941
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 7: they can take and possibly win. So from two thousand

942
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 7: and one to two thousand and nine, I just corresponded

943
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 7: with them. They never promised to take my case. They

944
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 7: never said they was going to commit any time or

945
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 7: resources to my case. We just corresponded for years. For

946
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 7: eight years, there was a process of just corresponding and

947
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 7: being two thousand and nine, Jim mcclousey came down from

948
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 7: New Jersey said when me and my mother don't visit

949
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 7: and said, congratulations, you know we're taking your case and

950
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 7: we're gonna get you out of there now. Two thousand

951
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 7: and nine.

952
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 4: And we know that the wheels of justice, when they're

953
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 4: moving in the wrong direction, they moved very quickly, but

954
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 4: when we're moving back in the right direction, they move

955
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 4: very slowly. But nonetheless, it does seem like there's a

956
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,479
Speaker 4: lot of very positive momentum right now. And what about

957
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 4: the Innocence Project, Lamona, Which innocence project was it that

958
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 4: you wrote to? Because there are insist projects all over

959
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 4: the country.

960
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:53,919
Speaker 7: All right, answered projects in New York, Georgia, California, Topeka.

961
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 7: I mean, there was so many different I was getting addresses,

962
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 7: like my mother was always find an address and something somewhere,

963
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 7: so I'll end up just send them to me in

964
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 7: our write them. I was writing all over the place,

965
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 7: I mean any place I could Kause School of Law,

966
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 7: different wast Burn School of Law, just different places, like

967
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 7: everywhere anywhere I could if I knew there was an

968
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,280
Speaker 7: innocent project around, I'm pretty sure. I got in contact

969
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 7: with them and most of them responded a by saying

970
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 7: that something they could do. Some never responded, but sit

971
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 7: through our ministries and pressing New Jersey they responded. You know,

972
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,720
Speaker 7: I responded, I've been grateful ever since.

973
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's projects around the country. They're all

974
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 4: overloaded and overworked and overburned, and it's important for people

975
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 4: to give money to them and also to Centurion mindiustries

976
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 4: to be able to continue this work. The Centurion Ministries

977
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 4: really has done, from what I can tell, great work

978
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 4: on your case ever since they got involved, and now

979
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 4: getting it again to the point where you're going to

980
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 4: get your day in court, and I think hopefully this

981
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 4: time you're going to get a fair trial with more

982
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 4: than competent attorneys, with great attorneys, and the truth will

983
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 4: come out if you're even allow yourself, if you allow

984
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 4: your mind to go there. What are you dreaming about

985
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 4: when you get out, because I'm convinced you are going

986
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 4: to come home and I'm gonna be there fighting right

987
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 4: alongside with everybody else. What's the first thing you want

988
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:27,720
Speaker 4: to do? And then how do you see the future?

989
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 7: First day, I'm gonna do eat something. I'm gonna go

990
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,879
Speaker 7: eat some breakfast or something. I'm home. You'll stay home

991
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 7: right here, So I'm gonna eat something. That's what I

992
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 7: fantasized about. Mostly, I want to eat something that there

993
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 7: From there, I want to have a couple of impact

994
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,800
Speaker 7: or effect on young people making poor decisions that was

995
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 7: eventually land them in a situation like this, you know.

996
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 7: So I want to just raise any kind of awareness

997
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 7: I can about decision making, because, you know, had I

998
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 7: been told how to make better decisions myself, I think

999
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 7: even though I was I to the law and this

1000
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 7: is something that had nothing to do with me, and

1001
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 7: that I still could have been making better decisions for

1002
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 7: myself before this stuff even came about. So I didn't

1003
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 7: want to be able to be there for young people

1004
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 7: as much as I can. So I can I can

1005
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 7: help them understand that even though you don't do something wrong.

1006
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 7: Even though you don't commit a crime, you can be

1007
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 7: you still got to be accountable, and you still got

1008
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 7: to be a mindful of the fact that you're out

1009
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 7: there floating around and you can easily be put in

1010
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 7: a situation like that and if you're not being productive

1011
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 7: and doing something that's productive out there in life. So

1012
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 7: I don't want to be able to reach the young

1013
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 7: people as much as I can, and now that this

1014
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 7: that to be young just anybody that doesn't want to

1015
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,919
Speaker 7: be able to share my experience and hopefully it will

1016
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 7: help out in any kind of way.

1017
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 4: You know, well, I'm gonna say this, I'm sure that

1018
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 4: you will do that, and then you're going to have

1019
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 4: a very positive impact on a lot of people because

1020
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 4: you have a very rare combination of intelligence and manner

1021
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 4: that is so positive and strong but still gentle that

1022
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 4: I believe that you'll be able to affect a lot

1023
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 4: of a lot of young people and I'm looking forward

1024
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 4: to watching you do that. There's one other thing I

1025
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 4: wanted to raise. I'm always amazed when I speak to

1026
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 4: someone in your situation, and especially so with you, that

1027
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 4: you don't seem to be bitter after everything that's happened.

1028
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 4: And I know you talked about your faith and family

1029
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 4: and the strength that you get from them, But how

1030
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:36,479
Speaker 4: is it possible that someone can go through this most

1031
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 4: unimaginable nightmare still be in it, and yet be as

1032
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 4: positive and strong as you are now?

1033
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 7: Well, I have my moments with anger, I have my

1034
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 7: moments with I feel frustrated, But I have my moments

1035
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 7: with anger. But you've always like taking poison helping someone

1036
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 7: else die from me. I was the only one affected

1037
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 7: about me being angry. No one else seemed to notice

1038
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 7: a pay attention to me being angry, So I was

1039
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 7: just learning experience like being angry doesn't help me. So

1040
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 7: I just wanted to help myself because I knew, I

1041
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 7: always knew I was gonna be here forever. I knew

1042
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 7: that eventually the truth was surface and I would have

1043
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 7: a life outside of the wall. So I devoted a

1044
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 7: lot of time and energy towards helping myself and not

1045
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 7: hurt myself. So being angry was something that was a

1046
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 7: hindrance to me, not a benefit. So I just stood

1047
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 7: firm on what I believe. That's my life with God,

1048
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 7: and I try to say positive because this place is

1049
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 7: you got to keep up with yourself and take care

1050
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 7: of yourself, and anger and stress and all those things

1051
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 7: is just shorten your life span. And I got the

1052
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 7: life to live. So I just choose. I choose to

1053
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 7: be positive. I choose to not be angry and allow

1054
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 7: anger to kill me. I don't want to die in

1055
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 7: this place, and I don't want to have a short life.

1056
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 7: So I stick farm to what I believe in. And

1057
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 7: I believe in my faithor and I believe in meditation,

1058
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 7: I believe in exercise. I believe in taking care of

1059
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 7: my mom, body and soul. And that's another vote my

1060
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 7: time too.

1061
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 4: Wow. I don't know what else to say. I know

1062
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 4: that people are probably listening to this. I'm feeling the

1063
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 4: same way I'm feeling that they want to do anything

1064
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 4: they can to help. Do you want people to write?

1065
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, that'd be.

1066
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 4: Fine, all right? So yeah, do you have the prison

1067
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 4: I D number in the address to write to?

1068
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 7: Yeah? Okay, that's a LAMA back into number six oh

1069
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 7: five five a l C l PO box two Lance

1070
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 7: and cans six six four to three.

1071
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:46,919
Speaker 4: Okay, there it is, And hopefully people had a chance

1072
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 4: to write it down and we'll be able to reach

1073
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 4: out and I know hopefully we'll have at least a

1074
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 4: couple of people listening to the show, maybe even in

1075
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 4: a position to do something to help, aside from offer

1076
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 4: their their support, their prayers, whatever it may be. The

1077
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 4: mon I'm I'm just gonna turn it over to you

1078
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 4: and say is your microphone? What do you want to

1079
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 4: share with the audience.

1080
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 7: Well, these kind of cases having more than they should,

1081
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 7: you know. So it's like a I always see on

1082
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 7: TV or Dayline twenty twenty each year and it said

1083
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 7: man so many years in prison, then he get exonerated,

1084
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 7: and you see this happen time and time again. But

1085
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 7: what you never ever see or hear or hear about

1086
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 7: is how much that's the impact of affected the family.

1087
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 7: For those people like I had a close knit family.

1088
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 7: We was close and it was a thing. It's just

1089
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 7: not just like me being affected by an invented happened

1090
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 7: in my life. It affects everyone that's tied to me,

1091
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 7: loved me, or care about me, and it affected my

1092
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 7: family in a way that it's like it hurts me

1093
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 7: to see how much how much it affected not only

1094
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 7: me but my family. And it's difficult because if a

1095
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 7: man has to go through a certain thing by himself.

1096
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 7: That's his life, that's his path and life. He gotta

1097
01:01:57,560 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 7: go through that. I had to do what I have

1098
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 7: to do no matter what. But when you see somebody

1099
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 7: you care about being affected by what you have to

1100
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 7: do or what you have to endure a different kind

1101
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 7: of feeling. And it's like people don't really pay attentions

1102
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 7: that I know about that, Like when district attorneys of

1103
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 7: being dishonest when they're trying to get convictions and all that,

1104
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 7: I don't think they take that consideration how many people

1105
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 7: they are affected by just not going by the law,

1106
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 7: just not being truthful about certain things. It's not just me,

1107
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 7: whatever issue personal issues they may had about with me.

1108
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 7: My family's affected by that. My brothers, my brother's kids

1109
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 7: when all this happened, and they feel like they lost

1110
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 7: a mother because my mother devoted so much time for

1111
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 7: trying to get me back out of the system that

1112
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 7: they felt like they were neglected. So they were affected

1113
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 7: by that. My older sister was affected, my brother was affected.

1114
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 7: I mean everybody was affected. And when you try to

1115
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 7: hold onto something good, even when you try to get

1116
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 7: something good this kind of situation, it's still nothing good

1117
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 7: come from me, it's just always bad. It's always negative.

1118
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 7: Talent is always hurdles, it's always something. But for the

1119
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 7: person that's in the middle of it, that's just my experience.

1120
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 7: But on the outside of it, that's something that people

1121
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 7: don't ever get a chance to see. That's just a

1122
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 7: harsh or harsh reality. But the person that lives based

1123
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 7: on someone else being in competence when all the stuff

1124
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 7: basically could have been avoided by someone that's doing their job.

1125
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 7: But the job people was employed them to do, you know.

1126
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 7: So I think people should understand that and know that

1127
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 7: there's a lot of people to be affected by something

1128
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 7: like that. I think a lot of pists should be

1129
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 7: brought to this moment and this kind of situation, so

1130
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 7: a lot of people can if you ever find another

1131
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 7: person that situation, it can be more mindful of that.

1132
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 7: It's not to help in a different kind of way.

1133
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 7: They could because it's not just about me, it's somebody

1134
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 7: everybody who care about me too.

1135
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 4: It does have a ripple effect on the whole community.

1136
01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:58,439
Speaker 4: All I can do is tell you that you have

1137
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 4: you have all mine I respect and support, and I

1138
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 4: have a saying lamont you know I've seen too many

1139
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 4: miracles to stop believing in miracles. So I'm excited to

1140
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 4: watch you be the next one or one of the

1141
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:16,560
Speaker 4: next ones, and we'll never stop fighting for you and

1142
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 4: for other people in your situation.

1143
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 11: One minute remaining.

1144
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:25,080
Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to a positive outcome and to getting

1145
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 4: to know you on the outside and in the meantime.

1146
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 4: I just all I can say is thank you for

1147
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 4: being on wrongful conviction with me and sharing your thoughts

1148
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 4: and strength and wisdom.

1149
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 7: I appreciate it, Manik for the time they're having me.

1150
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 7: All appreciate it.

1151
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 4: We'll talk again soon. I'll see you when you get out,

1152
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 4: all right, all right, man, thanks, don't forget to give

1153
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 4: us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it

1154
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 4: really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Enesis Project,

1155
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 4: and I really hope you'll join me supporting this very

1156
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 4: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

1157
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 4: to Innocentsproject dot org to learn how to donate and

1158
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 4: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

1159
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 4: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

1160
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 4: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph be Sure

1161
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:20,840
Speaker 4: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

1162
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 4: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

1163
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 4: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association

1164
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 4: with Signal Company Number one