1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I've had the opportunity 2 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: to travel quite a bit across this country, and one 3 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: of the most striking locations geographically, at least is in 4 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: my opinion, is the desert southwest of the United States. 5 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: Being from the southeast, I'm used to seeing farm land 6 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: and rolling hills and green everywhere. Not out there. Sometimes 7 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: you can get on one of those highways and it 8 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: just looks like it goes on and on forever, and 9 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: I kind of realize how small you are. It's kind 10 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: of like when you go to the ocean for the 11 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: first time when you're a kid. You see the vastness 12 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: of it, but there is a beauty to it. But 13 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: not too many will stop along the roadway. There's not 14 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: many establishments out in some of those locations to stop at. 15 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: But can you imagine tooling down the road. You got 16 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: your kids in the car with you. Maybe you're singing 17 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: a song with them, maybe you're playing a game, or 18 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: maybe you're telling them to settle down. But all of 19 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: a sudden, out of the corner of your eye, you're 20 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: catching the odd sight. In the middle of that vastness, 21 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: there's a Mercedes, a blue one Mercedes ben C three 22 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: dre sitting there rising up off the desert floor on 23 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: what the police called earthen burm. When your high catches 24 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: it and you notice that there's a big hole in 25 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: the window, looks like, I don't know, a gun blast 26 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: or maybe a big rock went through it. But when 27 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: the police finally showed up at that scene after that debt, 28 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: he had caught it in. When they opened the trunk 29 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: of that car, they found something that's shocking. Is that 30 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: anything else you might see out there? And they did. 31 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: They found the body of Dr Thomas Bouchard. Today we're 32 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: gonna talk about his homicide. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 33 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: this is body bags. Join him in today is my 34 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: good friend Jackie Howard, senior producer with Nancy Gray's Crime Stories. Jackie, 35 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: when I heard about the story, I was thinking, what 36 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: an odd thing. You're riding along the road with your 37 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: kids in the car. You know, you and I are 38 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: both parents, and I've seen odd things along the road 39 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: with my family in the car. I don't know that 40 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: I would have necessarily stopped, But apparently he at least 41 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: called it into the police that caught his attention and 42 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: can you imagine the shock of the police when they 43 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: finally rolled up there and they stick their head in 44 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: the winter of their car and they say there's blood everywhere. 45 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: That's gonna be an indication that's something pretty horrific. It 46 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: has occurred, I would think, I would say, in the 47 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: landscape of California, Las Vegas and the area in between, 48 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: that's probably not the strangest things that officers have seen 49 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: out there. But Dr Thomas Brochard was very well known 50 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: and very well liked among his patients. He had a 51 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: longtime girlfriend. According to Judy Earp, his girlfriend, his patients 52 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: remained his friends and he helped them often throughout the 53 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: rest of his life. Usually he dealt with children, but 54 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: as they turned into adults, he remained contact in their life, 55 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: helping them financially, often when he had to. But when 56 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: Dr Brochard explained to his girlfriend that he had to 57 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: fly to Las Vegas, that was Friday, March one, and 58 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: he was scheduled to return the following Monday. But on 59 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: Sunday she began to realize that something was wrong. She 60 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: spoke to him on Friday, she texted with him on Saturday, 61 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: but Judy Earp says she knew something was wrong on 62 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: Sunday when she received a couple of texts from him 63 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: in the afternoon that she knew she just felt in 64 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: her heart that were not sent by him. She even replied, Tom, 65 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: I don't believe this is you. You You need to call me, 66 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: and after that the phone went dead. Then she finds 67 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: out that Tom doesn't check in for his flight. She 68 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: gets very worried. There's days before Dr Bouchard's body was 69 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: discovered in the trunk, as you said, of his luxury car. 70 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: But before the police officers looked in the trunk, they 71 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: looked inside as you said, they noticed the broken windshield. 72 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: And this vehicle parked it would almost be like a 73 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: big lightbulb above it because it's on display and it's 74 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: basically got a neon sun that says, hey, look at me. 75 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: I'm a flashy car and I'm sitting up for all 76 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: the world to see. So police officers go to look 77 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: and inside they find lots of blood. Joe, one of 78 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: the fascinating things about being a death investigator is that 79 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: sometimes when you arrive at a scene, do you know 80 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: that there are actually scenes of deaths that don't have 81 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: bodies and up on initial examination. When you look, say, 82 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: for instance, into the cabin of a car, and it 83 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: is just bathed in blood, you have to think automatically 84 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: that something horrific has happened in this environment. You have 85 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: all manner of blood staining that has taken place, and 86 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: you know with blood there goes an indication of activity. 87 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: What do I mean by that, Well, you you have 88 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: blood spatter where you can have a dynamic event, say 89 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: for instance, a gunshot wound or maybe a bludgeoning, where 90 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: you have blood that is directly blown onto a surface, 91 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: sprayed onto a surface, if you will, in one manner speaking, 92 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: then you have transfer of blood, which means that you 93 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: have blood that comes comes about as a result of 94 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: a body or an object that is soaked with blood 95 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: touching that that area and then it it kind of 96 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: supersaturates the area and it leaves this very specific pattern. 97 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: If you take a body, you say, for instance, and 98 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: you move it all about an area and it's coated 99 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: in blood, you'll you'll get these kind of swirls, say, 100 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: for instance, as somebody has a bloody, blood soaked hair. 101 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: It's almost like taking a mop that has mud or 102 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: something on it, and you can kind of see the 103 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: swirl on the floor that the mud makes as you 104 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: transfer it from from the strands of the mop. Same 105 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: thing with hair loathing works the same way, hands work 106 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: the same way, and so there's very distinctive patterns that 107 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: you look for. But it also goes to the dynamic 108 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: of an event, which is critical in a case where 109 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: you're trying to assess how this blood is in fact 110 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: directly related to a horrible event that more than likely 111 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: gaging from the amount of blood you find it a 112 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: scene might be an indication that the amount of blood 113 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: is what's referred to is incompatible with life. Given where 114 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: these blood patterns were found, there's spatter on the driver's 115 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: seat head rest and in the back seat. When you're 116 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: looking at a scene like this, Joe, can you just 117 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: immediately not from doing any kind of testing, but just 118 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: from looking at how much and how the blood is 119 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: laid out, whether it is a blood force wound, a 120 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: stabbing wound, a shooting. I mean, just can you look 121 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: at that and go, oh, yes, somebody got shot here. 122 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: Yeah you can, because you know the finer the spray, 123 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: for instance, that gives us an indication of the hire 124 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: of the velocity. And I'll give you an example of that. 125 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: If you if you take say a handgun, and you 126 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: shoot somebody in the head, when that blood exits out 127 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: of the body, it's going to be in a spray 128 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: like pattern. When I say spray, I'm talking about the 129 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: consistency of like air sol hair hair spray. Can't you 130 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: kind of sprits it like that and the droplets will 131 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: be very very fine. However, if you have an event 132 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: where someone is beaten to death, the droplets themselves will 133 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: be much larger when they settle on the surface. Another 134 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: thing you have to consider as well is do you 135 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: have evidence that that blood settled in a particular location. 136 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: And this is you know what, begin to talk about 137 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: things like the pooling of blood, where you have pools 138 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: of blood that give you an indication that a subject 139 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: may have laid there for a period of time and 140 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: blood either pumped out of their body at that spot. 141 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be like an arterial spray pattern, 142 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 1: which tends to be kind of fine. It can be 143 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: just almost like a see page where you have blood 144 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: that's kind of slowly coursing out of the body and 145 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: sometimes that's just drawn up by gravity at all depends 146 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: so if you have a large area of blood, you 147 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: have an indication that the dynamic or that there was 148 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: kind of a lack of a dynamic environment there where 149 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: you've got a lot of movement around and kind of 150 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: these high velocity events and that sort of thing, a 151 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: lot of activity. That's one of the reasons. And this 152 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: is kind of an interesting little aside. There are cases 153 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: that have been worked over the years where people have 154 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: actually been convicted in the absence of a body of 155 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: a homicide, but yet the investigators found such a large 156 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: amount of blood at the scene. The term just as 157 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: I stated earlier, they would say, let's see if I 158 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 1: get the phraseology right, this volume of blood is not 159 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: compatible with life. In other words, that the individual lost 160 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: so much blood at that moment in time that the 161 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: subject could not have continued to live. And it can 162 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: be indicative of what type of event that you might 163 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: be looking at. You begin to look at, for instance, 164 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: the appearance of the blood. Have the red blood cells 165 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: begun to say, for instance, separate from the serum. You know, 166 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,119 Speaker 1: the way we think about blood is if it's constantly 167 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: circulating and mixing, if you will, So once that begins 168 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: to happen, that can be an indication of time as well, 169 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: because it takes a certain amount of time for the 170 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: serum to separate out from the red blood cells, for instance, 171 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: and within the serum you'll find other other components as well. 172 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: But it gives you an idea of what may have happened. 173 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: It's and it's important because the blood will tell you. 174 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: It will give you direction many times, not just the 175 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: dynamic of events, say the spray of the blood pattern 176 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: it's left behind, but also if you have, say, for instance, 177 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: the drag marks that are left behind, and sometimes they 178 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: are tell tale people are moving a bloody body across 179 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: the surface and you see dots of blood or you 180 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: might see big swipes of blood across that area, and 181 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: it kind of gives you this this interesting pattern of 182 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: movement and you begin to inter at that, and you know, 183 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: I find it very interesting that in this particular case 184 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: that the police found not just blood within the cabin 185 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: of the car, but they also found blood on the 186 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: exterior of the trunk of this car. Jackie, as a 187 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: death investigator, many times I've reflected back to that Bible 188 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: verse from Genesis where God confronts came and he asked, 189 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: came you know, where is they about your brother? Cain 190 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: is kind of like, I don't know, and I think, 191 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: and I'm certainly paraphrasing. I know theologian, but he says, 192 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: your brother's blood cries out from the ground, and from 193 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 1: an investigative standpoint, blood does cry out to you. It 194 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: tells you things. It's an indicator of motion, it's an 195 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: indicator of placement, it's an indicator of activity. Well, Joe, 196 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: blood does not tell me as much as it does you. 197 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: So I got lots more questions for you. Let's go 198 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 1: back inside the car you were talking about. Blood was 199 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: found on the outside. Again, I'm still inside the car. 200 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: Blood was found on the driver's side and in the backseat. 201 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: But there was so much more evidence that was found, 202 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: So I want to know how this would have been handled. 203 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: Latex gloves were found, and of course my limited knowledge, 204 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 1: I went, oh, yeah, we've got fingerprints on the inside 205 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: and d n A on the inside. And then we 206 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: find out that there may have been a fire set 207 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: inside the car, and I go, okay, was that intentional? 208 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: I learned in way too much from you, Joe. Let's 209 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: terrifying on so many levels, Jackie. But yeah, yeah, you're 210 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: absolutely right, And you're a great student. You're probably one 211 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,719 Speaker 1: of the best students I've had. Well, we spent a 212 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: lot of time together. But okay, teach me to do 213 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: when you look into an environment and and listen. One 214 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: of the things you have to consider as an investigator. 215 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: When I see bloody gloves, most of the time, I 216 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: don't automatically think perpetrator. Unfortunately, when I show up at 217 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: a scene and I see bloody blue late tch gloves, 218 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: the first thing I think of is E F T. 219 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: And this is why this is very important and kind 220 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: of let me make this point so so that our 221 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: our our listeners understand when we're the scene and you 222 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: have what would commonly referred to as kind of life 223 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: saving debris that's out there, and this includes bloodied gloves, 224 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: they don't throw that stuff away. You retain it, You 225 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: take pictures of it. You don't say, hey, let's take 226 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: a picture of a dead body and but remove all 227 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: the debris that the E m T s left behind. 228 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: You know when you take the photo, you can't do that. 229 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: That's altering the scene. So those gloves that that are 230 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: at the scene, within this car, that's part and parcel. 231 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: Even if they were left behind, which I don't think 232 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: they were by an e m T. But that's one 233 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: of the things that you think about. You don't just 234 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: toss things away because the smallest amount of evidence can 235 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: really turn the case. If you exclude the emergency medical 236 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: technicians that may have rolled out on any particular scene, 237 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: and you have bloody gloves, well, automatically your default position 238 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: is I didn't leave them. You didn't leave them, so 239 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: who did? And you think, well, this has got connection. 240 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: And also when you see gloves, it gives you sense 241 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: that the individual that may have been involved in this 242 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: event was prepared and that's that's kind of that that 243 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: puts the case into a completely different realm at that moment, 244 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: because you have an individual that if they committed a 245 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: homicide and they had gloves when they did it, they 246 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: thought about it, They thought about what they were doing, 247 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: they thought about their actions, they thought about leaving a 248 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: trace of themselves. By on, going back to my old 249 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: friend at Moderlocard, every contact leaves a trace, and they're 250 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: trying to do everything that can to thwart it. It's 251 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: amazing to me. You know, you had mentioned recovering evidence 252 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: from within gloves, and that is possible you can get 253 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: trace evidence off of a perpetrator from within the gloves 254 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: depend upon how carefully you treated. Why in the world 255 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: would you leave the gloves behind. It's almost like they're 256 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: not thinking. It's almost like an incomplete event. At that moment, 257 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: you thought to bring the gloves, but you didn't think 258 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: to take them with you. You just thought that you'd 259 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: tear them off and just lay them there and that 260 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: they wouldn't be collected as evidence. So that's kind of 261 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: a fascinating thing to me. But when you have gloves, 262 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: that means that you want to create a barrier between 263 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: yourself and whatever item that you're touching. And so if 264 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: there is blood from a victim, a specific victim that 265 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: can tie back, it gives you an idea that after 266 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: blood had been spilled, these gloves are essentially stained with it. 267 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: So you begin to think, well, what was the purpose 268 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: of the gloves. Was it to hide points of contact 269 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: on a weapon that was used, or was it to 270 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: thwart the investigators to try to determine who handled the 271 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: body and a postmortem since the fire they had evidence 272 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: of a fire. At that point, would you have to 273 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: bring in an arson team or can investigative personnel like 274 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: yourself death that's seen investigators do all of those determinations 275 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: and diagnosis as well. No, never, if I have access 276 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: to arson personnel, I'm reaching out to them. These are 277 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: some of the most highly trained individuals, and they are 278 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: specifically trained to deal with fire. I know enough about 279 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: fire to be dangerous from a forensic standpoint, and I 280 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: can interpret certain things. But when you begin to consider 281 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: what arson investor the level of training that they go through, 282 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: because many times and many of jurisdictions, for instance, arson 283 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: investigators are not just Many of them start off as 284 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: firefighters and then they go to the police cademy and 285 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: become police officers as well, and then they go through 286 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: arson training. So these people have extensive trainings for this 287 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: purpose alone. So if I have these individuals in my rolodex, 288 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: if you will, to use an old term, if I 289 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: have them in my contacts and phone, I'm hopping on 290 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: the phone with them, because look, you and we talked 291 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: about this on body backs. You get one first chance 292 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: to get it right. If I say, oh, well, I'm 293 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: the smartest person in the room, I'm gonna go ahead 294 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: and handle the area over here that looks like burning 295 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: has taken place and I screwed up, which there's a 296 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: high probability I would because I'm gonna miss something. I'm 297 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: not specifically trained in that area. I'm gonna call my 298 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: friends from Arson. I've got a lot of really good 299 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: friends that are arson investigators, and what they can do 300 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: in that kind of environment is absolutely amazing. They know 301 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: what evidence to collect, they know how to interpret the fire. 302 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: They can tell you, for instance, how hot the fire was. 303 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 1: They can begin to search things out to look for 304 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: deposits of accelerant. They know how to collect it and 305 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: how to assess it, who to talk to it the lab. 306 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: They speak the language, because a lot about forensics is 307 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: learning to specifically speak the language and understand where to 308 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: route evidence too, and arson investigators are the best at this. 309 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm sure that in this particular case, they 310 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: would have reached out to people that are fire investigators, 311 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: would have brought them out and asked for their opinion, 312 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: and they would have generated a report in this case 313 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: as well. Okay, so my inquiring mind has gone off 314 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: into left field. We've all seen on TV all those 315 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: little evidence markers, you know, number twenty two yellow tag 316 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: with the picture is going to be taken. How many 317 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: bags pieces slides of evidence can be generated from a 318 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: crime scene like this. Each individual piece of evidence, let's say, 319 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: for instance, those gloves, okay, that we mentioned, those are 320 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: not to be packaged together, all right. Each glove is 321 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 1: an individual piece of evidence, and it will be assigned 322 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: a very specific number, and it will be analyzed in 323 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: and of itself. It will not be analyzed with the 324 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: other glove. It's like any item. If you have two 325 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: blood soak socks that are removed from, say a deceased 326 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: person's feet, each sock is an individual piece of evidence. 327 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 1: Any fiber collected, say from below the knee with a 328 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: tape lift at autopsy, is different than the tape lift 329 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: that you're going to get from superior to the knee. 330 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: Those are all individual pieces of evidence. So when you 331 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: begin to kind of calculate, and I think folks are 332 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: surprised to hear this, when you begin to calculate the 333 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: volume of evidence that you take out of a scene, 334 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: it can be staggering. I've actually been on scenes. I 335 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: remember one night in particular, we had such an extensive 336 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: scene within a house we had to call out to 337 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: vans full size vans, like a conal line size vans 338 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: to haul off all of the evidence that we had 339 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: and those were in paperbacks. We had backed things individually 340 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: at that scene, and we filled up to two large vans, 341 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: so you can you can go as deep with this 342 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: as you possibly want. Yeah, wait, wait wait wait wait 343 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: do you mean like one bag side by side throughout 344 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: the entire van? Are you just kind of talking on 345 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: the shelves and things that are installed. Well, it all 346 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: depends on, you know, if we want to get into 347 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,959 Speaker 1: a volume contest, like judging how many jelly beans are 348 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: in a big class jar. I guess we could do that, 349 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: but it's gonna be hard to calculate that. It's it's 350 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: a vast number, and you have to be very careful 351 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: with it. This is why, because each thing contained in 352 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: that bag has individual value from a scientific standpoint, you 353 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: have to be very careful with it. There's certain things 354 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: that potentially could be jostled around and you're not gonna 355 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 1: do any damage to them. But there are other things, say, 356 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: for instance, that you don't want to stack on top 357 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: of one another. Say, for instance, if you do, in 358 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: fact have a blood soaked item, Uh, you don't want 359 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: to crunch that down in the bag, because that could 360 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: perhaps transfer blood on one aspect of an item to 361 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: another aspect of the item that didn't have blood on 362 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: it before. So you have to think about all of this. 363 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: Everything that you do has to have purpose behind it, 364 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: and you have to be able to justify it. You 365 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: have to be able to justify it to yourself and 366 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: everybody work with, but also you have to justify it 367 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: in court because when you get up on the stand 368 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: to testify to the validity of that evidence, how it 369 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: was handled and everything, you better bring your a game. 370 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: And because their attorneys out there that are that are 371 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: bright enough to ask you questions specific to these points. 372 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: How was this evidence treated? Okay, So back to the car. 373 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 1: Investigators look inside, find the blood nobody. Then they pop 374 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: the trunk and they find it Dr Thomas Burchard. He 375 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: has been in this vehicle for several days out in 376 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: the desert on top of this berm Now, the only 377 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: good thing about this investigation would have to be that 378 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: it was March and not July or August, and he 379 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: was enclosed. I guess good is probably not a great term, 380 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: but valid point in this investigation. The conditions that you 381 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: are in the lower temperatures and enclosed space is going 382 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 1: to preserve the evidence. I eat the body better. Oh boy, 383 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: you're right on the money with that, Jackie. And here's why, 384 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: because it is the best term for me. Is advantageous. 385 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: You look for advantages as an investigator in a scene, 386 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: and this is an advantage. Remember in the opening I 387 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: talked about how vast this area is. That we're talking 388 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 1: about the desert, all right, It just goes on for 389 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,239 Speaker 1: miles and miles and miles and miles. They could have 390 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: scattered remains all over the place, but not in this case, 391 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 1: they have contained remains. And so for us as investigators, 392 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: when you open up a trunk as foul as this is, 393 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 1: as horrific as it is, you have the advantage in 394 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: a case like this because you have essentially a contained 395 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: crime scene within this environment. And you know, we have 396 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: kind of a way that we grade crime scenes, or 397 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: that we refer to crime scenes. For us as medical 398 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: legal death investigators, the area or the location where we 399 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: find the body that's going to be what we would 400 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: refer to as a primary crime scene because with no 401 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: disrespect to the dead, but the body is the largest 402 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: piece of evidence. That you have. Okay, you want to 403 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: be able to preserve it, to try to there's this 404 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: word again, and try to keep it as pristine as possible. 405 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: And in and this gentleman's death, when they placed his 406 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: body into the trunk of this car, they did the 407 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: investigators a favor because for that moment, this body is 408 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: sealed away. You don't have the external environment, which could 409 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: be now highly unlikely. It's not gonna be rain. You're 410 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: in the desert. I know they do have a monsoon season. 411 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure when that is. But you don't 412 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: have rain. You don't have to Okay, they might set 413 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: in the morning. You're not gonna have wind. Wind can 414 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: really impact the body. You don't have direct sunlight. And 415 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: one of the biggest things is that you don't have vermin. 416 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: You know, you're not gonna have codies that are gonna 417 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: be walking up to the body and disrupting the body 418 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: if as if it were laying outside of the car, 419 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: or any kind of other animals that might be out there. 420 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: It's actually kind of cocooned in a way and protected. 421 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: My thought is is that the best course with the 422 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: body and a car like this, And I've I've done 423 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: this on several occasions where we do not remove the 424 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: body from the vehicle at all. We have a flatbed 425 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: truck that comes out and we pull the vehicle up 426 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: onto the flatbed, and we take the body back to 427 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 1: the crime lab and the car in total is processed 428 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: with the body and place, and that way you don't 429 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: disrupt anything. Now, that's that's the ideals or circumstances that 430 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: you work under, and sometimes that can't happen. It doesn't 431 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: happen in every case, but for me as a forensics guy, 432 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: that would be my preference because I'm not gonna lose anything. 433 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: People don't think you know, well, g whiz, where are 434 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: you gonna lose? Morgan? Well, if you just the simple 435 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: act of lifting a body out of this awkward space 436 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: that you have to draw the body out of essentially 437 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: to get it into a body bag, can create a 438 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: disruption in the continuity of the evidence. What if you 439 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: were able to take the entire car. You just said 440 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: that moving the body could possibly destroy tamper with the evidence, 441 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 1: But wouldn't tilting a car upon its axis to move 442 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: it onto a flat bed do the exact same thing, 443 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: not to the same degree. As putting hands on it 444 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: and manipulating it. And there's a reason why people use 445 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: the term dead weight. The eight of a deceased person 446 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: is the most awkward thing that anyone, well most people 447 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 1: except those that work on farms and carry things like 448 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: sacks of feed and try to deal with hay and 449 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: all that stuff. It is dead weight. It doesn't the 450 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: body does not help you. You know, when you lift 451 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: somebody and they're alive, you might not sense that they're 452 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: helping you. They're helping you, and you're disrupting the body 453 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: to a great degree because you're moving the body. Let's 454 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: say the body is lying on the right side, Okay, 455 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: lying on the right side, and say, for instance, like 456 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: a semi fetal position. They've settled into that particular position. 457 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 1: And also there might be patterns of things that are 458 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: coming up off of the body that are underlying the body, 459 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 1: and it gives you an idea of the position of 460 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 1: the body. Was the person still alive and they put 461 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: them in the trunk or had they been dead prior 462 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: to this and they put them in the trunk. You 463 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: lose kind of context. If you will. I think, in 464 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: my opinion, it's going to be much less disruptive. To 465 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: simply pull the vehicle up onto a flatbed will be 466 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: disruptive with the body as opposed to taking the body 467 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: out and placing it into a bag and then jostling 468 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: it as you walk it back to a van that 469 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: sparked on the side of the road. Remember this is 470 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: this is out in the desert, okay, And so you're 471 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: gonna have to egress across this terrain, if you will, 472 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: in order to get a loaded up into a van. 473 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: If you can just take that body in place in 474 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: the in the insight to as they say, in place 475 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: in the back of this car, take it to the 476 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: crime lab and process it that way, that's the most 477 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: ideal set of circumstances. Okay, So I'm gonna let you 478 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: move things as you find important, Joe. But back to 479 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: the trunk. When the investigators did remove the body into 480 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: the autopsy, they found that he had been bludgeoned. And 481 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: how did they figure that out? I know, you know, 482 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: you get meat with an instrument, you get a certain 483 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: amount of patterns. Splant force, sharp force tells you what 484 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: he was beaten with. But how did they figure out 485 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: that heat been beaten? Bill enforced trauma is kind of 486 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: a curious thing. You have to try to do an 487 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: assessment many times on surfaces that are just encrusted with blood, 488 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: and particularly when their head strikes involved. As I've mentioned 489 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: on a number of occasions, you know, the head is 490 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: in fact the most vascular area of the body. So 491 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: when you have head strikes, the surfaces that are kind 492 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: of broken open as a result of enforced trauma are 493 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: gonna just be super saturated with blood, and so it's 494 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: hard to make heads and tails out of what you're seeing. 495 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: We do an initial examination in the morgue where we'll 496 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: look over the surface to see where these insults have 497 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: taken place, try to get an idea of the degree 498 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: of them, but you can never fully appreciate them until well, 499 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: to be quite honest with you, we wash the individual's 500 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: hair really clean the head off very very well, and 501 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: if they have hair still in place. Most people don't 502 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: realize this. We shave the head. We take generally the 503 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: edge of a apple, which are very very sharp, and 504 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: it's a real skill set that you possess if you're 505 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: an autopsy assistant or forensic pathologists in shave back the 506 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: hair and you try to fully appreciate what's going on 507 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: beneath the hair itself, because the hair can obscure a 508 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: lot of things. And it's at that point that in 509 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: this particular case, that they would have been able to 510 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: assess how many individual strikes, because every time a blunt 511 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: object strikes a surface like the skull, it will essentially 512 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: laceerate the skin. Now, keep in mind, I did not 513 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: say cut the skin, because that's something that people get 514 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: confused over many, many times. It's not a matter of 515 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: a cut. This is a laceration, and they're completely two 516 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: different things. Cut implies that you're using a sharp edged instrument, okay, 517 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: and it's going to be very linear in shape, and 518 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: you're gonna have these kind of what's referred to as 519 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: smooth margins. It looks like a machine to blade, which 520 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: a knife would be, has sliced through tissue, all right, 521 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,959 Speaker 1: and the tissue is completely straight. The injury is straight 522 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: with sharp fours and very ordered. Now, with a laceration, 523 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: many times the injury will be very jagged. They leave 524 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: very nasty breaks in the skin. And one of the 525 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: ways we ascertain this is check for what's referred to 526 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: as tissue bridging. And one of the ways you can 527 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: kind of understand this concept is the next time you 528 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: go out to eat a meal and you're eating steak 529 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: or chicken, particularly, you take a knife and you cut through. 530 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: So you cut a piece of steak or cut a 531 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: piece of chicken. Look at the edges of of that 532 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: meat that you just cut. It is going to be 533 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: very uniformed. However, if you take a piece of meat 534 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,239 Speaker 1: and you pick it up on your hands and you 535 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: pull it apart, it gets stringy, doesn't it. I don't 536 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: care how tender the cut is. It gets stringy if 537 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: just kind of pause just for a second before you 538 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: completely pull it apart, you'll see these little strings of tissue. Well, 539 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: that's what we refer to in forensic science as tissue bridging. 540 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: Bridging does not occur with a sharp instrument. You have 541 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: to have blunt instruments to do that. So when we 542 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: look at an injury and assess it either at the 543 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: scene or at the morgue, we're looking for what's referred 544 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: to as tissue bridging. Another thing that they're gonna look for, 545 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: and pathologists will use these ten dollar words. They're gonna 546 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: look for associated ecamosis, and what that means is they're 547 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: surrounding hemorrhage, which you see many times with blunt force trauma. 548 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: So if you can imagine an individual being struck by 549 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: a rod, like an iron rod or perhaps a hammer, 550 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: it will leave at least in the predepth state or 551 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: the anti morton state. It will leave these little areas 552 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: of echamosis or hemorrhage around that lacerated area. And that's 553 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: how we assess a blunt force injury. And also below 554 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: the surface of the scalp, we're talking about a head 555 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: injury here, a blunt forward's head injury. You can very 556 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: well have fracturing on what's called the external table of 557 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: the skull, and that is that layer of the skull 558 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: that is on the outside external and if it's with 559 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: enough force, the individual can sustain what's called a depressed 560 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: skull fracture, which means it actually drives the external tissue 561 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: the skin, for instance, of the scalp, the muscle down 562 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: through the external table of the skull and it's collapsing 563 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: it in into the cranial vault and many times into 564 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: the surface of the brain actually in the moment will 565 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: actually fragment and go down in there, and that that's 566 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: an indication, and this is important from a dynamic standpoint 567 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: when you're thinking about assessing what happened at the scene, 568 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: You're trying to assess whether or not there was a 569 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: very strong person that was wielding the instrument as opposed 570 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: to say, a lighter strike. That might give you an 571 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: indication that maybe not as much strength or velocity was 572 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: applied to the weapon that was used. Given the fact 573 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: that so much blood was found within the cabin of 574 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: the car and certainly in the trunk, I think that 575 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: the police in this case have have a real head 576 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: scratcher going on. Is it possible to to beat someone 577 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: to death in the front seat of the car, Remember 578 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: there was blood on the head rest, there was blood 579 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: on the seat. Or was the individual transferred from the 580 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: vehicle into the trunk of the car? Did this maybe 581 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: occur in another location in the car was used to 582 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: transport the individual somewhere? I don't know. So as the 583 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: investigation unfolded, pul Easton learned and were able to pinpoint 584 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: where Bouchard had spent the last three days. He had 585 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: been visiting an old patient, Kelsey Turner years old. She 586 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 1: is a model and an actress. On Instagram, and there 587 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 1: was a relationship between her and Dr Bouchard. At the time, 588 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: we did not know what their relationship was. Now we 589 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: know that Dr Bouchard was paying for the home that 590 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 1: she lived in, paying for credit cards, and they had 591 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: an intimate relationship. Police were able to go back to 592 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: the home and at the home they found a situation 593 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 1: that was pretty similar to what they found in the car. 594 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 1: There was blood. The blood in the vehicle doesn't marry 595 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: where the blood that is spilled at this scene, at 596 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: this home, if you will. And that's going to be 597 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: essential because you go back to the dynamics of the 598 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: event and what what were the patterns of blood that 599 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: they found within the home. Obviously they have blood. We 600 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: we have this this door that's within the house that 601 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 1: had apparently been knocked off of the hinges. You start 602 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: talking about things becoming unhinged or being knocked off the hinges, 603 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: that that that those are action terms. We're talking about 604 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: a tussle that's going on, maybe with great force that's 605 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: being applied to try to to subdue Dr Bouchard. And 606 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: one of the things you have to consider is was 607 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: he taken unaware in this place he shows up to 608 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: talk to this woman and to try to engage with 609 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,879 Speaker 1: her and to tell her that things are quickly coming 610 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: to an end, perhaps in their relationship. And then she's 611 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: essentially laying in wait. She knows that he's coming well, 612 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: and she's not real big. I've seen images of her, 613 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: and it really makes you think, would she have been 614 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: strong enough even though he's a bit older. Would she 615 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: have been strong enough to get the upper hand on 616 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: him even with a baseball bat? People think about about 617 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: the psychiatrist is being very kind of nerdy and bookworms 618 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. Understand what they do for 619 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,959 Speaker 1: a living. Psychiatrists have to deal with patients many times 620 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 1: that are highly agitated. They have to deal with people 621 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: that are very very aggressive, So he would have had experience, 622 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: certainly trying to subdue somebody. He might not be a 623 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: martial artist per se, but he's been in circumstances throughout 624 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: his career where he would be very defensive and have 625 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: maybe more of an awareness. Say, for instance, if you 626 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: had a surgeon that walked in there to deal with this. 627 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: This guy has dealt with people that are out of control, 628 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: so that's that's an interesting dynamic. Would she have been 629 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: strong enough in order to overtake him and then absolutely 630 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: beat him to death with a baseball bet. But the 631 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: question is would he have been strong enough to subdue 632 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: Kelsey Turner's boyfriend. Dr Mischard may have been six ft 633 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: tall two and in fifty pounds, but Kelsey Turner's boyfriend 634 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: was younger and stronger. Inside the home, they found a 635 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: door had been kicked off the hinges. They found blood 636 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: in a garage. They found towels in the home that 637 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,919 Speaker 1: matched a bloody towel that was found, So you could 638 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: see investigators starting to piece together all of the information 639 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: of this murder puzzle. Yeah, when you have items home, 640 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: items that are found in a vehicle and they're essentially 641 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: saturated in blood and you find similar items at a home, Yeah, 642 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: that's that's a big tail for us investigatively because you 643 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,359 Speaker 1: have to ask the question, what is this item doing 644 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: in the vehicle when I have a matching item at 645 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: the scene where obviously some type of terrific struggle has 646 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: taken place. This point when police are investigating this, you know, 647 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,479 Speaker 1: we've talked about blood a lot in this particular case, 648 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: and there there was obviously a copious amount of it. 649 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: One of the questions that an investigator has to ask, 650 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: is this the only blood? Is this is this blood 651 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: of single source blood? Or do we have co mingled blood? 652 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,919 Speaker 1: Do we have blood that might have originated from somebody else. Yeah, 653 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: I'm sure that probably with her help the boyfriend, her 654 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: current boyfriend, could have probably easily subdued this guy. But 655 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: he may have put up a fight. He may have 656 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: drawn blood on on either Kelsey or her boyfriend. And 657 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: you have the comingling in the blood. You know what 658 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: if one of them got popped in the nose, they 659 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: start to bleed, and those blood spots that you find 660 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,720 Speaker 1: a scene at the home where this probably took place, 661 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: are they commingled there? Or when they're transporting the body 662 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,439 Speaker 1: out of the house and they're placing it in the car, 663 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: you have blood commingled in there. How did blood get 664 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: into the cabin of the car if he's in the 665 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: trunk of the car, was he ever seated in the 666 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,720 Speaker 1: front seat or was the person that perpetrated this crime 667 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: just absolutely saturated in the victim's blood and they drove 668 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: them out there. One of the other things investigators found 669 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: was an effort to clean up the blood. And as 670 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: we've talked, about many times when there's a murderer, there's 671 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: always an attempt to clean it up. There was cleaning 672 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,919 Speaker 1: supplies found in the home, So now we can talk 673 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: about all those other wonderful words like smears and transfer 674 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 1: blood and swipes, and the wonderful fact that you can 675 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: tell the difference in all of those things, isn't that's 676 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: something that those patterns that you work so hard to 677 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: clean up, Not you, Jackie, but you in the universal 678 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,359 Speaker 1: sense that perpetrators used to to try to clean up 679 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,720 Speaker 1: with they're gonna leave some remnant behind. You think about 680 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: these transfers of blood. Somebody is, say, for instance, saturated 681 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,439 Speaker 1: in blood, and they take their bare hand or maybe 682 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,320 Speaker 1: even their gloved hand and they place it on the floor, 683 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: and that transfers that pattern left behind on the floor 684 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: of their hand, and they can go back and try 685 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: to clean that up. But if you bring in an 686 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,760 Speaker 1: agent like blue Star or luminal, you can actually see 687 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: these patterns. Many times that will lumins in the dark 688 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: for just a brief second and you have to snap 689 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 1: a photo of it, but you can pick up some 690 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,280 Speaker 1: detail in that environment and kind of understand the effort. 691 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: You know, we talked about betting that was found in 692 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: the car. If you wrapped the body or secured the 693 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: body that's saturated within the betting, and you dragged them 694 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: across this floor, you're gonna leave this kind of furrow, 695 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: if you will. That kind of leaves this this curved 696 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 1: pattern or curve linear pattern, as they say. Dragging across 697 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: the floor, you'll see these little swirls on the ground, 698 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: and that gives you again an indication of movement. And 699 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, this case is all about patterns when you 700 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: really think about it, it's it's the patterns that you 701 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: find within the cabin of the car, the patterns that 702 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,319 Speaker 1: you find, the transfer patterns perhaps that you find on 703 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: the outside of the trunk and somebody's trying to leverage 704 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: and body in there. And even one other thing that 705 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: the corner found was that when they were examining those 706 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: lacerations on top of the doctor's head, they actually found 707 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: a pattern that married up with a baseball bat. So 708 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,839 Speaker 1: this whole case kind of comes down to that when 709 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 1: you think about baseball bat striking the surface and hitting 710 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: that soft tissue. If our listeners at home, I'll give 711 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: you a great kind of experiment to do. If you 712 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: have access to say, for instance, like a silly putty 713 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,760 Speaker 1: or like plato or something. And you take an object 714 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,359 Speaker 1: and it can be like a spoon, for instance, the bowl, 715 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: the bottom of the bowl, the exterior stereor of the spoon, 716 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: press it down into this putty and then leave the 717 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 1: spoon there and see what happens to the putty. It 718 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: rises up over the edges of that spoon and headed 719 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: towards the bowl. That's the same principle with striking someone 720 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: with kind of a rounded object like a bat. Did 721 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 1: you know that that when you strike that area of 722 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: the skin and you're gonna break it and leave blood everywhere, 723 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: But when you strike that area of the skin, do 724 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: you know that that skin actually kind of stretches out 725 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 1: and wraps itself just for a second, like a millisecond, 726 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: around the edges of the of the bat, And you 727 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: can sometimes pick up a pattern of it. And you 728 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: know how baseball bat is kind of tapered, starts off 729 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 1: with a big barrel at the end, and it kind 730 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: of narrows down as it goes down. I've actually seen 731 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,800 Speaker 1: cases where you can actually pick up on that narrowing pattern, 732 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: depended upon where they actually strike an individual with the 733 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: surface of that bat. Ex playboy bunny Kelsey Turner has 734 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 1: taken a plea deal in the murder charges against her 735 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 1: for the death of Dr Thomas Bouchard after accepting an 736 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 1: Alfred Please, where she doesn't have to admit guilt in 737 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: the slang of Dr Thomas Brussard, but does admit that 738 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: the authorities have enough evidence to charge her. She could 739 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: face up to twenty five years in prison. I'm just 740 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: as Scott Morgan and this is body bags. M