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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noel.

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Speaker 1: They call me Bed. We're joined with our guest super producer,

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Speaker 1: Ben the Bed, the hatchet Hacket. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here.

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Speaker 1: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: We'd like to begin this evening's show with a bit

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Speaker 1: of a reenactment and historical documentation of a run in

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Speaker 1: with a troll. Once upon a time, a guy tries

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Speaker 1: to cross a bridge. O hold it right, says a

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Speaker 1: voice beneath the stones.

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Speaker 3: If are you pass me bridge? You have to answer

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Speaker 3: a riddle?

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Speaker 1: Or what says the guy?

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Speaker 3: Or achi?

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Speaker 1: The guy pauses at the threshold of the bridge.

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Speaker 2: Fair enough, what's the riddle?

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Speaker 3: How do you count to six?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's easy, one, two.

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Speaker 1: The creature under the stones interrupts.

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Speaker 2: A fee a fall.

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Speaker 1: Five. The thing beneath the bridge pauses, confused, Six says

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Speaker 1: the human.

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Speaker 2: Six is after five, you jerk.

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Speaker 1: The human knew already this was going to be a

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Speaker 1: weird day. This is the old one of the old

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Speaker 1: stories about running into a troll. We love trolls, not

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Speaker 1: the Internet phenomenon. I think we made sure to put

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Speaker 1: that in the title here, But the old school trolls,

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Speaker 1: right the details, Yeah, bridge trolls also, Ben, can we

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Speaker 1: get some applause there for that dramatic retelling.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can peep up the single hand clap.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I clap loud. It's true. But we move in numbers,

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Speaker 1: which is part of tonight's show. What do you guys

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Speaker 1: think about when you think of trolls.

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Speaker 3: I think of the little kid going, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: you know, from troll to the movie. Oh, I think

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Speaker 3: it's a wonderful internet meme.

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Speaker 2: That's yeah, it is. I think of Justin Timberlake and

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Speaker 2: a bunch of other actors as animated characters singing a

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Speaker 2: bunch of songs.

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Speaker 3: That's a banger of a song right there, from Trolls,

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Speaker 3: the movie the soundtrack.

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Speaker 1: I think of films like troll Hunters, where there's another

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Speaker 1: there's another film called Trolls, which is much more disturbed.

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Speaker 1: But look, we all kind of accept that trolls are

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Speaker 1: creatures of myth and legend these days outside of arguably

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Speaker 1: a small population of humans in Iceland. As we continue

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Speaker 1: our exploration of fact, fiction, cryptids, mythology, and the paranormal,

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Speaker 1: we had to get to trolls and spoiler fillow conspiracy realist,

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Speaker 1: we may have learned the truth. Here are the facts,

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Speaker 1: as we're saying, at least in the United States, trolls

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Speaker 1: are most commonly associated with fiction, and of course the

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Speaker 1: famous troll dolls.

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Speaker 3: Remember these jewels in their tummies.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I heard about that extensively because friend of the

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Speaker 1: show and my actual girlfriend, Brandy, was originally super excited

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Speaker 1: by this episode. She assumed we were talking about troll dolls.

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Speaker 3: Another friend of the show, who shall remain nameless, has

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Speaker 3: a a tobacco pipe let's just call it that is

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Speaker 3: built to look like a troll. And you put the

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Speaker 3: tobacco in its belly button and you smoke it out

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Speaker 3: of its butthole.

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Speaker 1: Wow, okay, the anti booth.

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Speaker 3: Then Hackett made a face.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was trying to imagine. Okay, you put the

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Speaker 2: tobacco in the belly button and then you go around back.

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Speaker 3: Think of it lying on its back, right, and its

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Speaker 3: legs are kind of up in the air, and it's

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Speaker 3: not anatomically correct.

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Speaker 1: Nobody tried to smoke through your friends.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, genitals, at least troll dolls. They're like ken dolls

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Speaker 3: down there.

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Speaker 1: Interesting. In one of the more disturbing stories I read

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Speaker 1: recent fiction, you know, the guy who wrote Let the

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Speaker 1: Right One in I.

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Speaker 3: Don't remember the I love both versions of that film.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a story that got adapted into another film,

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Speaker 1: and in that story, trolls are closer to the Scandinavian folklore.

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Speaker 1: They are hermaphroditic spoilers.

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Speaker 3: They got Kloika's or something. No, I don't know about that.

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Speaker 3: You know what else I think of when of the controls,

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Speaker 3: I think of the Rankin and Bass Hobbit movie and

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Speaker 3: the whole thing where you know, Bilbo and company come

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Speaker 3: upon a band of trolls who very much want to

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Speaker 3: eat them and roast them.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I'm glad you mentioned the catabalistic tendencies, the

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Speaker 1: predatory nature. The story of folklore transmission, I think is

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Speaker 1: familiar to most of our longtime listeners. Trolls as a concept,

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Speaker 1: the word it comes from Northern Europe, Scandinavia, the so

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Speaker 1: called Low Countries, which is a weird joke. It's about

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Speaker 1: sea level and as taste well well. As Europeans migrated

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Speaker 1: to what we call the Americas today, they've brought their

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Speaker 1: folklore and beliefs along. This is a big part of

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Speaker 1: the narrative American Gods by Neil Gaiman. I'm leaning on

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Speaker 1: fiction a lot here, but I think it's pretty obvious

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Speaker 1: to that pre existing native cultures had their own long

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Speaker 1: standing legends of giants and half men and monsters and

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Speaker 1: things that were almost but not quite human. So if

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Speaker 1: you think about it, the idea of being an indigenous

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Speaker 1: or Native American and hearing someone tell you about trolls,

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Speaker 1: it would not have been entirely unfamiliar to you. You

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Speaker 1: would have said something like, oh the sea techa, right,

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Speaker 1: you know these other creepy things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we just did that Reptilian episode, so you know,

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Speaker 2: when we're thinking about half man, half human, getting back

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Speaker 2: to centaurs getting back to what are some of the

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Speaker 2: other things. Mermaids all kinds of creatures that are, like

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Speaker 2: you said, ben almost human, but they got something a

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Speaker 2: little weird going on, usually on the downstairs.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, I guess that's the thing. You know, wherever

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Speaker 3: you hail from or whatever your origin story or you know,

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Speaker 3: cultural heritage might be. We are all human at the

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Speaker 3: end of the day, and so we all have kind

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Speaker 3: of a similar set of equipment. Therefore, a lot of

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Speaker 3: the perceptions and fears and things that we develop as individuals,

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Speaker 3: despite where we come from or who we know, there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of parallel stuff going on in things like

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Speaker 3: religion and cultural practices and these sorts of mystical creatures.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a weird comparison. Since we were talking about

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Speaker 1: automotive things earlier. A weird comparison would be imagine your

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Speaker 1: typical American today, and you learned that people in the

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Speaker 1: United Kingdom also have cars, and their cars have trunks,

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Speaker 1: but they called the trunk the boot. It's the same concept.

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Speaker 1: It's a different name.

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Speaker 3: Over here. We call them frunks. All right, get it right?

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Speaker 1: I think it's a you thing, man, I like it on.

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Speaker 3: It's an Elon musk thing. Yeah, that's what the cyber

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Speaker 3: truck boot is called. It's in the it's called a frunk.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. All right. We'll teach their own and each

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Speaker 1: their own. Who are we to change, did you guys?

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Speaker 2: Look? I saw a random instagram that I don't think

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Speaker 2: is real. This is a side note. It was about

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Speaker 2: a Kanye West cyber truck.

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Speaker 1: I saw that.

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Speaker 3: I saw it looked AI generated, but the thing it

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Speaker 3: looked like one of those stealth bombers. It was like

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Speaker 3: totally black with no windows, very sleek. He said, only

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Speaker 3: one existed. I don't think it was really either, but

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Speaker 3: maybe you know.

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Speaker 1: I saw it in right, so I elected not take care.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry I did not investigate further. But Matt, I

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Speaker 3: do believe you're right that it is most likely fake.

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Speaker 2: Okay, just want to make sure. Oh yeah, the Internet

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Speaker 2: says fully fake. Okay.

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Speaker 1: The stories, yeah, the stories we tell ourselves. One for

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Speaker 1: the etymology nerds before we dive in the noun. Troll

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Speaker 1: come like now it is thought to be a very specific,

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Speaker 1: distinct creature in folklore, at least then noun. But back

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Speaker 1: in the day, it just meant It's kind of like

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Speaker 1: our exploration of the anti Christ. It just meant a

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Speaker 1: weird off vibe. And some people will tell you that

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Speaker 1: originally troll just described anyone who walked weird scans.

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Speaker 3: I could see that.

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Speaker 2: They said strolling.

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Speaker 1: They were trolling, Yeah, in a truck.

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Speaker 3: Ministry of Front funny walks.

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Speaker 1: Side to side fashion, you know it. It reminded me

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Speaker 1: of a Charlie day and always sunny in Philadelphia, who

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Speaker 1: says he was going by Trontle the Great.

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Speaker 3: What do they call that thing they do in the dune?

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Speaker 3: The worm walk? Whatever they have to like walk funny

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Speaker 3: so they don't attract the worm. Oh right, that would

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Speaker 3: be a troll patrolling. The origins of this word are ancient,

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Speaker 3: and the etymology comes far after the fact, so there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of debate, a lot of educated guessing. We

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Speaker 3: can kind of see that the phrase troll the way

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Speaker 3: we use it now derives from a Proto Germanic term

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Speaker 3: a language that came before all of the Germanic languages Truslan,

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Speaker 3: Trusolan or Trolan, and back in the day it was

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Speaker 3: just a general term for supernatural creatures or supernatural actions. Dude,

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Speaker 3: can you imagine how guttural and Proto german language would

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Speaker 3: have been and it has been all grunts.

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Speaker 1: It's basically all all battle rap at that point, So

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Speaker 1: you can see. You can see roots of this in

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Speaker 1: Swedish terms like trolla, which meant to charm or bewitch,

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Speaker 1: or the old Norse troll de more meaning just witchcraft,

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Speaker 1: just not cool stuff or baby cool stuff.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's really interesting because the mystic kind of goes

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Speaker 2: into there. That's really interesting as like at least what

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Speaker 2: we think of, well, some perceptions of trolls.

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Speaker 3: I guess often that they have magical powers. There's big dunderheads.

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Speaker 2: Again, some perceptions of that, right, and what we've learned

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Speaker 2: often in the show, when when magic is attributed to

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Speaker 2: like a group of people or a creature or a thing,

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Speaker 2: and it's given that kind of mythical uh, those mythical characteristics,

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Speaker 2: there's fear associated with that creature or being right.

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Speaker 4: Well, how does it work? And magic the gathering with trolls. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: there's all sorts of different trolls. I'm imagining a lot

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Speaker 4: of them with fire.

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Speaker 1: A lot of generative powers.

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Speaker 2: I think, yep, regenerate was one of the original things

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Speaker 2: that trolls had, which is a really cool thing that

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Speaker 2: needs to come back. I don't think that's a mechanic

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Speaker 2: that exists right now.

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Speaker 1: They're not doing it anymore.

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Speaker 2: I think maybe it's in there, it's just not I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I haven't seen it in a while.

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Speaker 1: I haven't called to you wizards, Wizards of the Dark,

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Speaker 1: Wizards of the Deep, of the Air, and of the coast. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia would would have.

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Speaker 3: Would having too many regenerative abilities be like an unfair

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Speaker 3: advantage or something? Is that why? Maybe they got rid

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Speaker 3: of it. It was like game breaking or something.

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Speaker 1: Technically, too many regenerative abilities is cancer.

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Speaker 2: That's that's man's proliferate. I think cancer is proliferate. To

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Speaker 2: regenerate emitted, it's pretty great. So if a creature with

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Speaker 2: regenerate would be dealt damage that would be sufficient to

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Speaker 2: kill it. You just tap a couple manna usually or

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Speaker 2: pay a little bit of life and then that thing

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Speaker 2: comes right back.

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Speaker 1: And yes, I'm shouting out, I'm trying out a reference

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Speaker 1: to Flight of Dragons where they assemble all the wizards.

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Speaker 1: Do you guys remember Flight of Dragons? Doesn't matter, We'll

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Speaker 1: do a dragon's episode maybe. So the idea here is fascinating.

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Speaker 1: I think that the notes about magic the Gathering show

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Speaker 1: us like these creatures. The idea of trolls. It exists

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Speaker 1: in the modern day very much so, you know, and

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Speaker 1: it dates back to Nordic folklore essentially from what we

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Speaker 1: can tell in Old Norse folklore, trolls dwell in isolated

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Speaker 1: wild areas, craggy rock ranges, distant mountains, and deep caves.

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Speaker 1: It's only later in folk lif or that we get

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Speaker 1: specific types of trolls, like, you know, a forest troll

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Speaker 1: or a hill troll or whatever. You know, the new Pokemon,

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Speaker 1: the new Pokemon of folklore. Yes, I love the idea.

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Speaker 1: Pokemon is folklore too.

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Speaker 3: I mean, isn't it isn't pot culture its own kind

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Speaker 3: of widely proliferated folklore in a way that I get

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Speaker 3: we accept as being fiction. I think that's maybe the

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Speaker 3: only difference. But I guess some people maybe don't know

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Speaker 3: the difference. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Well, give it twenty eight thousand years, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 3: Then people will be worshiping Pokemon as gods.

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Speaker 1: We conquer this empire for the glory of Chahrazad, the

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Speaker 1: name of Snawlax. That the trolls in myth often live

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Speaker 1: together in small packs or family units, again in caves.

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Speaker 1: They are not fans of humankind. If you catch them

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Speaker 1: on the wrong day, especially if you smell like one

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Speaker 1: of those as modern high faluting Christians, well then heck

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Speaker 1: that troll might eat you. That's the idea, the ancient

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Speaker 1: Christian they can smell you if you're if you're a Christian,

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Speaker 1: blood of Christ all over you. Yeah, And it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting way to deliver a message. So we've got some

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Speaker 1: notes on folklore. We know, of course, there are there are,

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Speaker 1: as we were saying, a lot of different vinn diagrams.

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Speaker 1: Folkloric overlap ancient sources oral traditions sometimes called trolls jot

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Speaker 1: nar the the idea conflating them with giants, and the

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Speaker 1: belief in these things is way older than Christianity. By

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Speaker 1: that time Christianity got like moved on up to the

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Speaker 1: north side of Europe, trolls were an established concept.

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Speaker 3: Is it Jodenheim the land of the giants in the

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Speaker 3: God of War games and conversely also in Norse mythology?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, yeah, in both.

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Speaker 3: In both I'm pretty sure God a War did it first.

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Speaker 1: But you know, yeah, yeah, who are we to judge? Right?

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Speaker 1: It wasn't. It wasn't until much later the trolls got

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Speaker 1: more specific attributes, descriptions, abilities. They became distinct mythological creatures.

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Speaker 1: And what we can say for sure is various things

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Speaker 1: have been called trolls things that we might not describe

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Speaker 1: as trolls today, they're to your point. No, they're in

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Speaker 1: mythology all over the place pretty consistently, and today most

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Speaker 1: people generally do not believe in them. They're just really

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Speaker 1: cool features to put in a story, and no offense

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Speaker 1: to anybody who genuinely believes that there is some sort

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Speaker 1: of ten foot tall, vaguely rock like creature that hides

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Speaker 1: from the sun and eat to you. If you're baptized.

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Speaker 1: If that's your thing, go with it, and we hope

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Speaker 1: it doesn't mess up your day.

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Speaker 2: If that is your thing. Watch the show Hilda on Netflix.

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Speaker 2: It is one of the best shows that I've seen

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Speaker 2: in a long time that I could share with my son,

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Speaker 2: and it deals directly with trolls. And when you're talking

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Speaker 2: about hiding from the sun thing. In this version of it,

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Speaker 2: it's a Canadian TV show. In this version of it,

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Speaker 2: the trolls are like stones.

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Speaker 3: That they turned to stone in the sun in some tradition.

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Speaker 3: Isn't that right?

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Speaker 2: Well, there are just stones out on the mountain side,

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Speaker 2: like just litter it everywhere, just huge stones, and then

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Speaker 2: at night they turn into you know, sometimes really dangerous things.

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Speaker 2: That attack the village. Other times, as you'll find out,

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Speaker 2: maybe they're not so dangerous.

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Speaker 3: Well, but that's the thing though, they charge their stones

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Speaker 3: during the day because the sun turns them to stone exact. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but I've seen I've seen that depicted in other places.

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Speaker 1: That's really that's argoyles.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, just for the record, the sun sucks. I

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Speaker 1: hate it, you guys.

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Speaker 3: And butt head, Oh my god, you guys. I'm in Augusta, Georgia,

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Speaker 3: which is just two hours from Atlanta, but it's in

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Speaker 3: a in a valley, whereas Atlanta's kind of up on

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Speaker 3: a hill a little bit more. And I swear to god,

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Speaker 3: the humidity here knocked me on my butt, like it

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Speaker 3: is just absolutely uh, completely different feeling. And I had

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Speaker 3: to like go indoors.

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Speaker 1: What's the troll content or troll demographic.

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Speaker 3: I think there's a there's a decent troll population. They

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Speaker 3: only come out at night, and I went I stayed

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Speaker 3: in so I didn't see any because.

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Speaker 1: Of the masters, like exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Different flavor of trolls or golf trolls are the worst

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Speaker 1: kind classic We've got different categories of trolls. We've got

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Speaker 1: so much folklore about them. What if trolls are less

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Speaker 1: like a myth and more like a cryptid There be

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Speaker 1: any sand to the legends. We're gonna pause for a

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Speaker 1: word from our sponsors and we'll dive in. Here's where

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Speaker 1: it gets crazy.

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Speaker 2: All right, Oh wait, all, here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 2: You're talking about golf controls, and I just I have

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Speaker 2: Happy Gilmore in my head with Shooter McGavin when he's

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Speaker 2: he's like, uh, it's I think it's the last game.

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Speaker 2: And or there's that guy that's constantly heckling him. Do

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Speaker 2: you know what I'm talking about? Mister Larson was his name,

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Speaker 2: and he's this huge dude. Uh and he's just like

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Speaker 2: tells me like barking lot. You do you guys remember

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Speaker 2: this at all? He looks like a troll to me.

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Speaker 2: And he's this huge dude that heckles him.

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Speaker 3: Uprolls no, no, no, no, no, carry on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I remember Happy Gilmore featuring that up and

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Speaker 1: coming Adam Sandler.

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Speaker 3: He's gone places here.

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Speaker 1: I think he's going to get into comedy.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, Supher McDonald as Shooter McGavin, come on.

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Speaker 3: Great, great, heal?

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Speaker 1: We know one thing for certain about all human cultures,

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Speaker 1: just like Adam Sandler. They did and do get up

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Speaker 1: to incredibly stupid, funny, arguably self destructive things. But they

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Speaker 1: were not any more nor any less intelligent than human

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Speaker 1: beings today. You know, folklore is another communication platform, right,

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Speaker 1: It's as untrustworthy as Twitter or social media in general.

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Speaker 1: It's all, but it's all meant. It all comes from

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Speaker 1: this noble intention to see and to explain the world

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Speaker 1: around us. So our question then becomes fascinating. Instead of saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: people in Europe back in the day were dummies, we

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Speaker 1: should say what were these ancient people attempting to explain

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Speaker 1: to themselves, to their peers, to their children. What if

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Speaker 1: trolls weren't mythical giants? What if what we're seeing in

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Speaker 1: these stories is instead an attempt by Homo sapiens to

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Speaker 1: describe encounters with something real, something not quite human. More directly,

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Speaker 1: what if trolls are in fact a corrupted story based

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Speaker 1: on encounters with the Neanderthal.

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Speaker 3: Okay, go on, you're.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean we get a learn about the Neanderthal first?

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Speaker 1: What are they? Are?

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Speaker 3: They like?

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Speaker 1: Cave folk?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sort of sloping, foreheaded, bad posture, slightly bigger than

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Speaker 3: the average bear a little dimmer too, right, early man.

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Speaker 1: That's the idea. Oh, also shout out to our pals

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Speaker 1: on theme, Eves, Jeffcoat, and Katie Mitchell, who just casually

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Speaker 1: taught us that highbrow is a a problematic term originating

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Speaker 1: from phrenology. Right, you can find that episode wherever you

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Speaker 1: find your favorite shows.

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Speaker 2: But but that's just saying the lowbrow of a neanderthal

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Speaker 2: in the high brow of a human.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the implication. Not to be too Dennis Reynolds

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Speaker 1: about it. But Matt, what do you think about when

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Speaker 1: you hear the word Neanderthal?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think of I can't you go back to

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Speaker 2: popular depictions. I think of the television series The Cavemen.

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Speaker 3: Based on the campaign. Yeah, yes, it was. That was

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Speaker 3: that progressive? It was an insurance company, wasn't it?

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Speaker 1: Saturday Night Live? Sketch Caveman Lawyer?

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Speaker 2: Just a simple but this is a whole series with

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Speaker 2: Nick Kroll like starring Nick Kroll.

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Speaker 3: It really was based on an ad series for an

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Speaker 3: insurance company.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but but it is well, as we've learned. Okay, now,

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Speaker 2: Craig me if I'm wrong here, humans and Neanderthals are

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Speaker 2: very close when when you're thinking about DNA, but they

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Speaker 2: are a very specific and separate not species. What what

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Speaker 2: do you what do you call it?

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Speaker 1: All of them? A distinct species? Is it? Uh? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: The I think the proper term we're supposed to use,

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Speaker 1: which we didn't on our previous episode on early humans. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the proper term is archaic humans because we can't call

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Speaker 1: them not human.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because they are.

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Speaker 1: It's just.

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Speaker 2: I don't know before a major split. But we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about later in this episode about Neanderthals and

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Speaker 2: I guess modern what would be described as modern humans?

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Speaker 1: Uh?

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Speaker 2: In mating and how that like changed.

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Speaker 1: Everything kissing cousins. Yeah, okay, I see.

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Speaker 2: It's just so confusing to me, Like how if they

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Speaker 2: are a distinct species, then how could they even breed?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: How could humans and Neanderthals breed successfully?

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Speaker 1: Well, they're closer than like a lion and a tiger,

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Speaker 1: and a lion and a tiger can create a liger.

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Speaker 2: Yeah okay, yeah, totally that makes it.

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Speaker 1: I didn't mean that to sound like lazy mumble wrap,

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Speaker 1: but bread for his abilities and magic, right right? We

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Speaker 1: need to regenerate this this idea. I think the Neanderthal

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Speaker 1: first off has been uh and beat me here, ben.

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Speaker 1: The Neanderthal has been upon for most of modern history.

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Speaker 1: When modern quote unquote humans first discovered quote unquote the

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Speaker 1: remains of what we will call a Neanderthal, it was

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Speaker 1: like eighteen twenty nine in Belgium, and the guy who

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Speaker 1: found it just said, oh, I found a dead, very

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Speaker 1: poorly developed human being. This was of course also Belgium

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 3: So I had Homo neanderthalinensis.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, sir, I think the age of Silent guys

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Speaker 1: dance and later discoveries followed. There were Neanderthal remains found

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Speaker 1: in Gibraltar, and when these things were discovered, that these

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Speaker 1: remains were woven into like the social and scientific attitudes

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Speaker 1: of the day. People found weird bones that looked pretty human,

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Speaker 1: but not quite modern human, as they would say, and

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Speaker 1: so they told their own stories to each other about

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Speaker 1: the provenance of those bones, and they usually confirmed pre

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Speaker 1: existing racist attitudes of Western science at the time. A

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Speaker 1: troglodyte a literal caveman. I don't even know if we

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Speaker 1: can say troglodyte on air. Isn't that an insult?

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Speaker 3: I mean, there are insults that are acceptable to say

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Speaker 3: on air, I love trogoloid die. You can't take that

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Speaker 3: away from you can pry it for my cold dead hands.

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Speaker 2: Oh, let's find out if they will.

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Speaker 1: Troglodyte a member of a fabulous or a prehistoric race

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Speaker 1: of people that lived in caves, dens, or holes.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, a fabulous Wow.

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Speaker 1: They had a lot of bizaz.

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Speaker 2: I didn't see that, I am. You can also describe

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Speaker 2: a person who is regarded as deliberately ignorant, or deliberately

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Speaker 2: old fashioned.

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Speaker 1: Or deliberately reclusive.

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Speaker 3: Someone might use it as a stand in for a Luddite,

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Speaker 3: you know, a Luddite is a very They are troglodytes

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Speaker 3: of technology.

437
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 2: There you go.

438
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 1: And the Neanderthal, mainly, as you can tell, folks of

439
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: the Neanderthal is always portrayed this kind of knucklehead, a

440
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: dim wit, you know, in bred maybe to the point

441
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 1: about Luddites, a hater of modernity in any form, a

442
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: real brute, a creature that you would either fear or conquer,

443
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: or in some cases both.

444
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: So it's basically describing royal families across the leaders of

445
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: the Homo sapiens.

446
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 3: Right, the royal family is gonna come for you, Matt.

447
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: Do you think they're coming after me?

448
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 3: No?

449
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: May No, you're not related to them exactly.

450
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 2: Okay, that's true.

451
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: If you're related to them, they'll find you, they'll get you.

452
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: So what was that John Goodman movie Duke of Earl?

453
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,479
Speaker 3: Oh, you're talking about King Ralph, King Ralph.

454
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: Yes, they sing Duke of Earl, King Ralph.

455
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 3: I just remember that was the first time I ever

456
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 3: heard of the British luxurious dish spotted dick. Yes, yes,

457
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 3: like a pudding of some sort with raisins.

458
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 1: Spotted dick, barley water. They're nailing it with food names,

459
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. We got to give them that.

460
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: I got lost for a second just thinking about the

461
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: weird food names used in the United Kingdom.

462
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 3: Not to malign British cuisine as a whole. There's very

463
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 3: amazing fine dining opportunities there, but a lot of traditional

464
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: British food pretty gross.

465
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: Looking, very much to malign it A sorry, a lot

466
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: like the Royal family see our stereotypes in play already,

467
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: and the British Empires still exists, the United Kingdom still exists,

468
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: and we're blowing smoke at it. Imagine what would happen

469
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: if you were gone for thousands and thousands of years.

470
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 3: They're so much trash.

471
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: There is no Neanderthal to hop up and do a

472
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: ted talk. You know. This is again the game of telephone.

473
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: So there's a wealth of incorrect assumptions about Neanderthals because

474
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: they fit the social framework of the day, and this stymied,

475
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: i would say even crippled science for generations. Afterward, the

476
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: more current civilization learns about the Neanderthal, the Denisovan, the

477
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: real life Hobbits, the early mixtapes of mankind, the stranger,

478
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: the story becomes because get this, Neanderthals human Basically, they're human.

479
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: They don't have superpowers, they don't turn to stone in

480
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: the sun. They are mainly reclusive because they're trying to

481
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: run from the other humans.

482
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 3: Right, what are people referred to ben when they say

483
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 3: the missing link is sort of like a piece or

484
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: a type of Neanderthal that would have bridged the gap

485
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 3: between uh, you know, apes and humans or is that

486
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: sort of along the right lines.

487
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's the in the theory of evolution, it's

488
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 2: the chain between the actual great apes that we still

489
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: observe today and the you know, the Denisovin's the Neanderthals

490
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:18,959
Speaker 2: between those two things.

491
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 3: That's right.

492
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: There's nothing there right now, at least no nothing that

493
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: we've found which would explain everything.

494
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, there's like Homo habilis, Homo erectus. But there's

495
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: this gap in the in the in the literal evolution,

496
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.

497
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: It's it's basically the standing up straight thing like where

498
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 2: is the full see the chart.

499
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: Out of the trees, like non arboreal and uh you

500
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: know to quote, uh some fans of doctor Moreau to

501
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: walk on two legs, the bipedal versus the platro pedal. Uh. Anywait,

502
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: like I the thing is, we know that modern quote

503
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: unquote modern human beings hung out with Neanderthals. We literally

504
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: know this. This is not a conspiracy theory. We have

505
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: the receipts to prove it. We also understand that the

506
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: world was less densely populated with this kind of life form,

507
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, up till about forty thousand years ago, when

508
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: the Neanderthal population seemed to disappear. But we haven't been

509
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: kind to the lives of the Neanderthals. We call them

510
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: lumbering morons. We again talk trash about them, But recent

511
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: discoveries have shown us some amazing things, like in those

512
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: caves where the Neanderthals lived, they did practice symbolism, They

513
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 1: had some understanding of object permanence, of great philosophical quandtry.

514
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: They lived, they loved, they were loved, They had kids,

515
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: they cared about their kids, They buried their dead.

516
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 3: They also laughed, though I know they lived and loved.

517
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 3: We got to know whether or not they laughed.

518
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: We know they were sick at music.

519
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: Cool and drums have crazy residents, you know what I mean,

520
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: like the reverb in there.

521
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean, I'm really not joking here, but

522
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 3: like early musical instruments you know, were derived from banging

523
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 3: on planks of wood and making different tones and even

524
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 3: like rocks and stuff. Those are really cool sounds, very

525
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 3: cool resonances.

526
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: Precisely mat you guys think they survived some apocalypse and

527
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: they had to move into the caves. You know what

528
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 2: I'm talking about.

529
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: Well, the world's sending for someone every day, right, Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,

530
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: So I bet you're right. I bet maybe maybe there

531
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:53,239
Speaker 1: was this hyperborean pre Neanderthal situation. Maybe Homo sapiens are

532
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: the remnet thereof I think that's cool. Anyway, we know

533
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: we know Neanderthals are route. There is a non zero

534
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: chance that encounters between the Sapien and the Neanderthal may

535
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: be the formative factor for some of humanity's oldest monster stories.

536
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: In fact, as we know, some of us in the

537
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: audience this evening make airy a bit of that legacy.

538
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 2: Guys, before we go to our ads, we're not currently

539
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: sponsored by twenty three and a meter, but it says

540
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: on their website here that you can eat you can

541
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: find out if you have Neanderthal DNA. That's really quick?

542
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 3: Is that an up charge?

543
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 2: Maybe let's go to the ads.

544
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: And we're back. Congratulations to everybody who just learned a

545
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: lot about themselves while at the same time sacrificing some

546
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: of the most private information you will ever possess.

547
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't feel bad.

548
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 3: I did it years ago, before it was even even

549
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 3: that interesting. I sacrificed my stuff for you're basically European dude.

550
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: That was literally what the results said. They didn't really

551
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: judge it up any.

552
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 3: That came with some sort of then diagram and like

553
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 3: a colored map. But I know it's come a long

554
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 3: way since then. But an I don't think they were

555
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 3: testing for that at the time. The technology just wasn't

556
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 3: that bad.

557
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 2: It wasn't that I love the idea that somebody attached

558
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: to post it. They just said, I'm sorry, sorry, this

559
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,240
Speaker 2: is boring. Yeah, I don't think.

560
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: It's boring, right. You were fascinated in her twenty twenty

561
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: one book Growing Up in the Ice Age, as well

562
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: as her more recent work from just last year, Rethinking Neanderthals.

563
00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,280
Speaker 1: An archaeologist named April Noel from Canada University of Victori Area.

564
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: She broke down these questions like how much genuine consideration

565
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: have Homo sapiens given to the life form of the Neanderthal?

566
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 1: And she notes this DNA stuff we're talking about, She says, quote.

567
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 3: Researchers have spelled out the entire Neanderthal genome from multiple individuals,

568
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 3: offering new insights into their biology as well as our own.

569
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 3: There is no longer any doubt that human beings and

570
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 3: neanderthals inter bred.

571
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 2: I thought that was going to be that game where

572
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 2: you say, in bed after something.

573
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: Multiple experts now agree in bed and a scientific consensus

574
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: is building in bed. It is irrefutable that the Neanderthal

575
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 1: and the Sapien interacted. We may never know the full

576
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: breadth of these engagements, but we know one species is extinct,

577
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: and the surviving species or group or whatever you want

578
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: to call it, people are still arguing about it. The

579
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: surviving thing carries within its population remnants flotsam jetsam of

580
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: the of the non existent group.

581
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 3: Real quick. I'm sure we mentioned this book on the

582
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 3: on the podcast before, but Sapiens, A Brief History of

583
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: Humankind by you've all Noah Harari has a fantastic greed

584
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 3: and deals with a lot of this stuff in depth

585
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: in a very i would say, understandable and intelligent and

586
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 3: pretty poetic way.

587
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned Shapiens. Harari's doing some great work.

588
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: Not everybody loves him, but I think I read every book.

589
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 3: I would just say, a very good science communicator.

590
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: You know, guys, speaking of communicating science, we've heard a

591
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: lot about these Neanderthals. We talked about trolls. What do

592
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 2: they have to do with each other?

593
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 1: My gosh, what a coincidence that we would arrive at

594
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: this point.

595
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 3: No, that's right here in the outline.

596
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh jeez. So there is this idea of we

597
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 1: always say it there is a grain of truth carried

598
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: in most of these stories that people told themselves over millennia,

599
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: because we cannot forget that communication, and therefore stories are

600
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: a kind of technology, indeed one of the earliest forms

601
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: of technology. So humans typically will have a pretty insular,

602
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: self centered definition of themselves and the universe around them,

603
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: like most human cultures. In their native language, their name

604
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 1: for themselves is something like the people or the real

605
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: people were the true people. Yeah, everyone, it is not

606
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: that so it's not one person. Yeah. So think about this.

607
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 1: These humanoid creatures, these trolls, in all their varying forms

608
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: throughout history, they regularly seem to tick a lot of

609
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: boxes for what we understand about Neanderthals. They dwelling caves,

610
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 1: they're suspected of catibalism, they're reclusive and or unfriendly to modern.

611
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 3: Society, and they're smoking hot.

612
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 1: Well, everybody's got a type.

613
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're big, buff bodies.

614
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 2: But they may not speak any languages that the modern

615
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 2: humans encountering them speak, which means there would be some

616
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 2: kind of territorial animosity. First of all, if you encroach on,

617
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 2: let's say, where they live in their home and they

618
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 2: can't understand anything you're saying at them. That kind of

619
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: makes sense. The Neanderthal will be cranky.

620
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: Wouldn't you Someone bust into your house and they go like, Hey,

621
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: whoa your brakes? I don't want to call the cave cops.

622
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: And I'm the only one series throwing rocks, telling you.

623
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 1: Yeah and then eating you, grinding your bones to make

624
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: their bread.

625
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 2: Well maybe maybe, but I think that's just because everybody

626
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 2: else ran away really fast when one guy fell, you

627
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,919
Speaker 2: know what I mean, So who knows what happened to him?

628
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: People needed better OPSEC really.

629
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 3: But wasn't he a giant not a troll? Is there

630
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 3: other things that we discussed how they were kind of

631
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 3: interchangeable concepts.

632
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:48,720
Speaker 1: Right, interchangeable?

633
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 3: Right?

634
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 1: It's like the the question I always think about. Uh,

635
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: there are two versions of it. First, was Goliath tall

636
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: or was David short? Second, when we hear about sea

637
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 1: monsters in the age of maritime expansion, were they that

638
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: big or were the boats smaller?

639
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 3: Yeah? Probably a combination. I mean, I'm sure if you

640
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 3: saw a whale breach for the first time, not knowing

641
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 3: that it was a relatively gentle giant, I would mark

642
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 3: that down as a sea monster real quick.

643
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: I would my pants, I would other people's pants.

644
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 3: I've told you, guys about my night terrors about being

645
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 3: in the water with a whale. I know it's not

646
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 3: going to hurt me in real life, but like, it's

647
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 3: just the hugeness of it. It's something that captivates the imagination.

648
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 3: And you just a big one that I can't see,

649
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 3: but I just know it's there, it's underneath, and it

650
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 3: terrifies me. I've had this recurring nightmare since I was

651
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 3: a kid.

652
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 2: Guys, I'm seeing all kinds of different stories about how

653
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: tall David and Goliath both were. Some of the most common.

654
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 2: I guess depictions of David are below five feet tall,

655
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: and then Goliath is just a foot or maybe two

656
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 2: taller than him. So real beefy boy, though probably a

657
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: little beefy big boy. But maybe David was pretty small.

658
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: That's the question, right, And this is this is the

659
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: nature of perspective, right, This is what informs a lot

660
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: of these legends. The idea of trolls as an embellishment

661
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: on human interaction with Neanderthal has been explored extensively in fiction.

662
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: William Golding, the guy who wrote Lord of the Flies,

663
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: wrote about it in a novel called The Inheritors. A

664
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: lot of people, a lot of academics from Finland are

665
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: super into the idea. And if we treat folkloric tradition

666
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: as a story with a meaning, a technology with a purpose,

667
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 1: then we can look at some of these more fantastical

668
00:41:55,120 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: claims and dismiss them as malarkey, no offense to winning

669
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 1: non Christians. But you cannot just smell someone and know

670
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: they are Christians. You can't smell anyone. You can't smell

671
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: anyone and know their religious affiliation.

672
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna agree with you. Right, You're right, Ben,

673
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 3: You're right.

674
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: I mean, tell me, tell us if we're wrong. You know,

675
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: if you got a thing where you're like the Bahai

676
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: clearly smell of raspberries or something, I just have a little.

677
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 3: Sensitive sniffer, you know, I've got to follow my nose.

678
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 1: Par Giant.

679
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: Maybe, man, I'm just saying, I think you could probably

680
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: post up in like a city center on a Saturday

681
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 2: and Sunday and just sniff around for like stale bread

682
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 2: or crackers and wine, and you could probably you could

683
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: probably you could probably way to a church Christian or

684
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 2: just some welches, you know what, I'm saying I think,

685
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 2: I think it might.

686
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 3: I don't know.

687
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: So you could do that with your your eyes your

688
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: eyes bound and your ears stopped.

689
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, that pepsi challenge any day of the week, Ben Bowling.

690
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: It would just have to be a close talk, you

691
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Get a little close talk and then.

692
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: I can rest it. That'd be, you know what, what

693
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: an interesting experiment? Well we we do know. Okay, so

694
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: maybe that superpower is based in fact, perhaps, But what

695
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: about the idea that one would turn to stone in sunlight?

696
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, I think the trolls in the ranking

697
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 3: in Basshumm movie do turn to stone?

698
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they make them argue amidst themselves over the until.

699
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,399
Speaker 3: They turn the stone. I'm almost positive. And it's really

700
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 3: creepy when they do, because they get all like really

701
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 3: like you start to shake and kind of get all

702
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 3: rictus looking.

703
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like electric light orchestra.

704
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 3: There you go. Well, I mean the idea of an

705
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 3: evil being turning to stone in the face of a

706
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 3: cleansing presence or something that's you know, representative of life

707
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 3: or you know, growth like the sun is super common.

708
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 3: I mean like Medusa, for example, you know it turned

709
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 3: to stone if shown her own.

710
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: Reflection, right, yeah again, or.

711
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 3: Could turn people to stone, but then you turn that

712
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 3: power on Medusa and then you know.

713
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: She was turned to stone. Another derivative of the fantastic

714
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: mythos of electric Light Orchestra, or as we call them

715
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: on this show, El.

716
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 3: O Eello slaps dude. Mister I was about to say,

717
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 3: mister Bright's side. Mister Bluesky is one of my favorite gems. Actually,

718
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 3: that's one people know the most. But there's this album

719
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 3: of theirs called El Dorado, and the cover of it's

720
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 3: super cool. It's like the ruby slippers from Wizard of

721
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 3: Oz and like these kind of witch hands and there

722
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 3: is a song on it I can't get it out

723
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 3: of my head that I think is in my top

724
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,479
Speaker 3: ten favorite songs of all time. It's absolutely incredible. Jeff

725
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 3: Lynn is a genius. Sorry, that's my yeah, I mean soapbox.

726
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: The question is how did how did the story of

727
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: trolls turned into the Scandinavian top folklore story of all

728
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: time or one of those top ten, Because what we

729
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: see is if you take away the more extravagant claims, right,

730
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: we can attribute those to the hazard of eyewitness accounts

731
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: translated over a long period of time. The game of

732
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: telephone writ large what we find. Then, if we take

733
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: away the supernatural stuff, we find that the folkloric record

734
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: of trolls checks a lot of boxes for what we

735
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: know about Neanderthals. They are held in tradition to have

736
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: occupied what we call Scandinavia long long before humans in

737
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: the north or sapiens in the North. I should say,

738
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: they're called the old ones. They're described as unattractive relative

739
00:45:53,600 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: to humans. They're not socially oriented, they're relatively elusive. Maybe

740
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: they were prescient of this other encroaching life form. Maybe

741
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: they didn't so much smell the different Homo sapiens, but

742
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: they sensed them in the fact that resources were being

743
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,479
Speaker 1: taken from them. Right, Animals were being hunted, I guess,

744
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 1: plants were being gathered. Humans have fire by this point,

745
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: so stuff was burning.

746
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 3: Dude. It just occurred to me that I smell the

747
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 3: blood of an Englishman. That is probably strange to a

748
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 3: member of the Church of England, right, Yeah, it never

749
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 3: occurred to me until this moment. That's wild.

750
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I hope we are forgiven for our again

751
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: completely accurate historical rendition. At the top of this episode,

752
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: there's a great article by Patrick Hunt, writing for Electro Magazine,

753
00:46:55,080 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: who notes commonalities between descriptions of trolls and what we

754
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: know about Neanderthal.

755
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 3: He says this, some of the commonalities between known Neanderthal

756
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 3: features and habitats and the folklore around trolls include heavy,

757
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 3: large boned skeleton, thick skinned for cold insulation, cave dwellers,

758
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 3: pronounced brows, broad based, possibly large fleshy noses, living in

759
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 3: remote or montane topography aka mountain trolls or beard trota

760
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 3: in Danish, or loki not considered optimum by increasingly sedentary

761
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 3: human Let's look back that real quick. Loki like as

762
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 3: in like locusts of control, Like, what is lokai referring

763
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 3: to here? I'm a little that's that's a that's a

764
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 3: big one.

765
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 2: Is it locations like that concept?

766
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: Yeah? Just that loki is like saying area within ki.

767
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 3: I just I don't think I've seen it used that

768
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 3: way before. That's cool.

769
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: Well, there. The argument is that the sapiens became an

770
00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: agricultural enterprise, right, Yeah, that's what they mean, hunting in gathering,

771
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: so that the the humans or the homo sapiens here

772
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: because of the new practice, the new fangle practice of agriculture.

773
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: They're not ranging as widely. They're not going into the mountains.

774
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: They're not delving into the caves.

775
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 2: Right and they're nine. They're not delving in the caves

776
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: and not going to the mountains, and they're not trolling around

777
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 2: those mountains right where they're They're hanging out by the

778
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 2: farm now because hey man, we got all these crops.

779
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 2: We can't go anywhere.

780
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 3: They had all these potatoes.

781
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: Often they'll get potatoes later.

782
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 3: Fair.

783
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: Every so often one of them may venture into the

784
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: craggy wild, and every so often something may come from

785
00:48:55,320 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 1: the caves. Right, and modern Hue humans treat trolls and

786
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: Neanderthals like the same kind of creature. These are dumb,

787
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: These are scary. These are evil. They're both often presented

788
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: as the quote unquote bad guy by the same life

789
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: for that probably assaulted, murdered, and ate them. In at

790
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: least a few cases, we know that Homo sapien hunted, killed,

791
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: and consumed Neanderthals. The closest this is an unfair comparison,

792
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: but the closest analogue we could imagine is a scenario

793
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 1: where you say, Hey, I'm based in I don't know name,

794
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: mistake or right, any state in Georgia, Saskatoon, Okay, I'm

795
00:49:53,719 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: based in Saskatoon. The people who live people who live

796
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 1: in Maine are way too different. We should hunt them

797
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: and eat them and maybe assault them and then salt them.

798
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,959
Speaker 2: But that's a may. Right. Humans may have been eating Neanderthals,

799
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 2: or do we have evidence of that?

800
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: We don't have. You're right, we don't have a smoking gun,

801
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 1: hard evidence like there's no written documentation from the prosata

802
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: or whatever where someone says I will always fondly remember

803
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: that time I ate a Neanderthal. Yeah I think like that.

804
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 2: Oh well yeah, okay, I mean Charles.

805
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 3: Darwin, sure what have if he got in his hands

806
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 3: on one, yeah, he would have one hundred percent.

807
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 1: It's good that he's not here now. I love the

808
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: face you made there, Matt, so uh what, No, it's fine.

809
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: It's good that Charles Darwood is not here.

810
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 3: Now.

811
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 1: He would have.

812
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 3: Eaten things you would have eaten us all.

813
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: He might have eaten it like a phone, you know

814
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: what I mean? He would think he discovered that too.

815
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: He ate everything he discovered it just it wouldn't work

816
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:06,280
Speaker 1: out well.

817
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 2: He has a really popular TikTok this like will it digest?

818
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 2: In trying all the stuff?

819
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:21,240
Speaker 1: So we can provably verify the physical characteristics of Neanderthals.

820
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: We do have circumstantial, if not conclusive evidence of cannibalism,

821
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: similar to the story of the Cecha here in the

822
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 1: United States. But because trolls are considered mythical beings, getting

823
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 1: a hold of a specimen or remnants thereof that what

824
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: we would call a troll has proven pretty tricky, you know.

825
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 1: And then of course we can fast forward through some

826
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: of this. A lot of people listening tonight might say, hey, guys,

827
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: for a long time modern human we modern humans or

828
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 1: ai eyes or chat chepts at all. We know there's

829
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 1: no evidence of the Neanderthal in Scandinavia. But you didn't

830
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 1: think about the climate.

831
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 3: What's that about the climate?

832
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 1: Didn't think about the climate. This is thousands of thousands

833
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: of years in the past. Ice ages come and go,

834
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: interglacial periods, the northern reaches of Europe and Russia could

835
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: have easily supported Neanderthal populations.

836
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 2: That makes sense, That makes a lot of sense. In

837
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 2: the caves, very caves, very nice when it's hot out.

838
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, think about the caves.

839
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 2: Or cold it could be freezing.

840
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:43,240
Speaker 1: Mmm mm hmmm.

841
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

842
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 1: Also, you know, why build a house when you can

843
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: live in a cave? Why learn to build a house? Yeah?

844
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 2: Man, Earth already made you one, and it's huge, and

845
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 2: it's it's climate controlled.

846
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're looking like a bunch of suckers right now,

847
00:52:58,120 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 1: aren't we. Seriously?

848
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 2: Oh you guys, I got a bunch of wood and glass,

849
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 2: So let's live inside there. The temperature will modulate just

850
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 2: as it does outside.

851
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: It's great. That's a disturbingly good point. And I'm kind

852
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: of upset that we have to pay mortgages.

853
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: And reds seriously, but we won't get wet exactly.

854
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 3: Oh man, I was just talking with my buddy who

855
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 3: I'm staying with, about how both fire and water are

856
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 3: two things that are necessary to create life, but also

857
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 3: on their own can destroy everything. Water will disintegrate your

858
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 3: house if you do not keep it in check, and

859
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 3: fire will just you know, burn it down.

860
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 1: Robert Frost was right, Maybe that's nominative determinism for us.

861
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: But what was that poem? Fire and ice worth it? Yeah?

862
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 3: The Song of Ice and Fire by Robert Frost classic

863
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 3: classic fantasy.

864
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 1: I have opinions about Robert Frost, love to hear yours. Folks.

865
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,959
Speaker 3: Do the two roads divers in the Yellow Wood? H did,

866
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 3: knowing which was bloody bloody blue? I took the path

867
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 3: less traveled.

868
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 1: I don't remember from that, and that's made all the difference.

869
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 3: Hasn't made all the difference exactly?

870
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 1: And then it explodes.

871
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:14,800
Speaker 3: Now that's a different poem.

872
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 2: Ben, would you say you've cooled on Robert Frost.

873
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 1: I'm still out about it. The opinions are strident and subjective,

874
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: and we'd love to hear yours. Also, always send us

875
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: your your favorite literary references with Neanderthals and trolls. If

876
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:41,240
Speaker 1: this connection holds true, wouldn't we expect legends of something

877
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: like trolls to be most prevalent in areas of the

878
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: world where we can prove a longer lasting Neanderthal population, right,

879
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 1: like you know, even past the Ice ages. In short,

880
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: and I'm cursing a lot in this episode, we have

881
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: to logically ask what the happened in Scandinavia such that

882
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: an encounter or series of encounters could survive, transforming into

883
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: legend over the course of like twenty eight thousand years.

884
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 1: How terrible was that day? Someone might have walked over

885
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 1: a bridge and had that riddle.

886
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:28,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to see it in my mind how

887
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,839
Speaker 2: it morphed that that far. But just as you as

888
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 2: you said, time is the thing that will change anything

889
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 2: and everything, like most assuredly, time's gonna change it. And

890
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 2: if it really is twenty eight thousand, thirty thousand years,

891
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 2: I bet nothing. I bet he was almost nothing. It

892
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 2: was like, uh, there was a there was an animal,

893
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 2: some kind of animal under the bridge, and it kind

894
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 2: of scared me. But I just kept going and I

895
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:57,479
Speaker 2: got here a little faster and I normally would because

896
00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 2: I was running.

897
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 1: And it turned into this thousands of years later. Soone's like,

898
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: this thing was huge, it was maybe made of stone,

899
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: there were rocks nearby.

900
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 2: It made me answer riddles.

901
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 1: Oh wait, wait the guy makes it back to the

902
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 1: village or the tribe, what happened? Said No, I'm done

903
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 1: with riddles for today.

904
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 2: That's it, and it all just now.

905
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: It's a troll, cool, cool, everything's fine. This also, I

906
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:36,240
Speaker 1: think gives us another idea. Right, So if this relationship

907
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 1: unproven between trolls and neanderthal is correct. Then the most

908
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 1: important thing to realize is that the trolls are still here.

909
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: The call is coming from inside the house in the

910
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 1: most real sense of the idiom. What does this tell

911
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: us about humanity today, humanity in the future, whatever the

912
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 1: thing we call humanity will become. I don't know. I

913
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,240
Speaker 1: think it just tells us winners write the history.

914
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it tells us that the term troll for that

915
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 2: thing some people do on the internet. Really it kind

916
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 2: of fits, kind of fits.

917
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: I mean, i'd agree with that. Yeah. The more we

918
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 1: learn about the Neanderthal, the more we see the bad

919
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 1: guy of prehistory was relatively sophisticated, empathetic life for same questions,

920
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: same fears, similar hopes and dreams of its sapian cousin.

921
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: But perhaps it was just different enough to be seen

922
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 1: as prey, and just perhaps a lot of legends about

923
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: trolls are a slow cultural reckoning with the sins of

924
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 1: the human past.

925
00:57:54,960 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 3: Slow clap, slow clap. No, well's that been I don't know.

926
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 1: You know, it could be completely wrong. If you're a troll,

927
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 1: like an actual as our pal Lauren likes to say it,

928
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 1: actual facts, supernatural troll, and you're hearing this right, let

929
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 1: us know. We'd love to hear your opinions. We try

930
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: to be easy to find online.

931
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 3: That's right. You can find us at the handle of

932
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 3: Conspiracy Stuff, where we exist all over the internet, on Facebook,

933
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 3: or we have our Facebook group Here's where it gets crazy,

934
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 3: on YouTube where we have video content rolling out every

935
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 3: single week, and on x fka Twitter. You can also

936
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 3: find us in the handle Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram

937
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 3: and TikTok. But weight there's more.

938
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 2: We also have a phone number. It's one eight three

939
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 2: three std WYTK. Call in. Tell us your examples of

940
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 2: trolls that you think about when you hear that word.

941
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 2: Tell us what you think about this episode. Tell us

942
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 2: anything and everything we want to hear from you. When

943
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 2: you call in, give yourself a nickname, and you've got

944
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 2: three minutes say whatever you'd like. Just include at some

945
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 2: point in there if we can use your name and

946
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 2: message on the air. If you've got more to say,

947
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 2: then can fit in that three minutes. One out Instead,

948
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 2: send us a good old fashioned email.

949
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 1: We are the entities that read every single email we receive.

950
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 1: Be well aware of folks. Sometimes the void writes back,

951
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 1: would love to read your pros Eta that's a reference

952
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 1: for maybe few people here. All you have to do

953
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: is drop a line and send us a lenk, take

954
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 1: us to the edge of the rabbit hole or the cave,

955
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 1: and we shall do the rest. Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

956
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

957
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

958
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, where ever you listen to your favorite shows.