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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm editor Candice Gibson. Joint Today is always by staff

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Speaker 1: writer Josh Clark, who is very tanned and rested from

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Speaker 1: his vacation in Malta. Very rested, very relaxed. I'm feeling

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Speaker 1: pretty good. I'm glad to be back to a certain extent.

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Speaker 1: Miss Malta terribly, but yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty happy

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Speaker 1: to be here. Well, we missed you, and we really couldn't,

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Speaker 1: um hold down the fort people had to go ahead

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Speaker 1: and pick vice presidents while you were gone. You know.

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Speaker 1: I was a little disappointed to find out. I figured

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Speaker 1: they'd wait until I got back. Um, the Clinton's called

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Speaker 1: me and they alerted me to what was going on,

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Speaker 1: and I said, you know, just go for it. I

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Speaker 1: was in the Malta mindset, you know, two hour lunches,

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Speaker 1: three hour dinners, just you kids, have at it kind thing,

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Speaker 1: and have had it. They did. There's some pretty interesting

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Speaker 1: choices today. Um, And as in every good presidential election year,

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Speaker 1: there's always a lot of good fodder for scandals, and

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Speaker 1: there's more than usual this year. Well, people are really

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Speaker 1: anxious for change, I guess, or or more anxious for

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Speaker 1: things to stay the same. And everyone's all Twitter. I

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Speaker 1: think everybody's um pretty anxious for hope as well as changed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I agree, I agree. I think it's going to be

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Speaker 1: pretty interesting the next couple of months. I'm looking forward

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Speaker 1: to the debates for probably the first time in my

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Speaker 1: entire life. What about you. I'm just curious to know

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Speaker 1: how Sarah Palin is going to wear her hair up

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Speaker 1: or down that I would predict up. As a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, I've put a significant amount of money on it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll have to finish this wager later. You know. I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about presidents and there are private lives, and

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Speaker 1: how especially in today's modern age and media rampage, they're

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Speaker 1: not really entitled to private lives, at least the public

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Speaker 1: wouldn't want them to be, you know, no more than

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Speaker 1: celebrities get to have their private lives. And even though

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Speaker 1: you have very surly Brad and Angelina, you know, threatening

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Speaker 1: lawsuits on people who invade their homes. People want to

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Speaker 1: know what's going on behind the sort of glossy facade

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Speaker 1: of public appearances. Well, yeah, well there's a there's a

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Speaker 1: law actually in the US called right to publicity, which um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've heard about the whole fifty

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Speaker 1: cent taco bell scandal. Uh, he was able to you know,

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Speaker 1: threatening lawsuit, probably when I've been out of the country,

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Speaker 1: so I don't know what came of it. Um. But

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Speaker 1: because of the right to publicity, he is um his

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Speaker 1: image and his name, and that's what is his career.

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Speaker 1: Is that same courtesy isn't extended to public figures, elected officials,

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Speaker 1: people who throw their hats in the ring. Um. But

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Speaker 1: I agree. I think, you know, back in the day,

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Speaker 1: private life and public life were too totally separate things.

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Speaker 1: I don't think politicians were judged by their private lives

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Speaker 1: until we became kind of caught up in this cult

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Speaker 1: of celebrity, don't you don't you think modern occurrence. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think to a certain extent it is fair

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Speaker 1: because when people say things and the public sphere, but

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Speaker 1: then their behavior and their personal time betrays that they

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Speaker 1: perhaps feel the opposite way. You know, maybe people do

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Speaker 1: have a right to know, you know, who's being hypocritical,

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Speaker 1: who's being straightforward. But as sharp a lens as we

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Speaker 1: place on current political figures, you know, our current president

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Speaker 1: or the current presidential candidates are vice presidents. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if we apply as critical lens to former presidents. And

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Speaker 1: I think that there are some whose administrations certainly merit,

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Speaker 1: you know, praise for all that they've accomplished. But to

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Speaker 1: look back at some of our founding fathers, they let

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Speaker 1: some pretty sordid lives, and one in particular, today, scholars

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Speaker 1: you know, tear him apart every day examining him, Thomas Jefferson,

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Speaker 1: a real study in contrast. Well, yeah, he's a he's

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Speaker 1: a really good example of what you're talking about. He

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Speaker 1: was about as accomplished as any American has ever been,

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Speaker 1: probably rivaled only by Benjamin Franklin. To tell you the truth. Um,

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Speaker 1: he was a mild inventor, he had a couple of inventions,

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Speaker 1: plantation owner, obviously, a drafter of the Constitution, he was

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Speaker 1: a member of both of the Continental Congresses. Um. And

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Speaker 1: he just accomplished so much in his lifetime. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time he had this, um, this wildly scandalous

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Speaker 1: personal life in a lot of ways. And yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think when you put him under a modern lens, uh,

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Speaker 1: it is very easy to tear him apart, and you

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Speaker 1: kind of have to walk this really precarious tightrope, like

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Speaker 1: how do you judge Jefferson by his private life by

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Speaker 1: his public life and accomplishments or were a combination of

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Speaker 1: the boat And it gets even more complicated when the

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Speaker 1: private and public parts intersecked. For instance, we all know

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Speaker 1: that he read the Declaration of Independence, but the man

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Speaker 1: had nearly two slaves and his private possession, and he

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Speaker 1: never could settle the matter of slavery, whether it was

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Speaker 1: right or wrong. And I think he hoped, in his

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Speaker 1: heart of heart, said eventually I would just phase itself out.

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Speaker 1: And that's sort of strange because I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: an institution that was ever going to, you know, subtenly

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Speaker 1: go away. That is a bit strange. Plus also, um

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Speaker 1: he uh, well, he inherited most of his slaves from

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Speaker 1: his father in law, John Wales, right um. And ironically,

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Speaker 1: the the house slaves, the house servants, um, were thought

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Speaker 1: to have been sired by Wales himself with a woman

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Speaker 1: named Betty Hemmings. And one of the kids um out

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Speaker 1: of that, uh that affair was Sally Hemmings, who, as

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you already know, Um, Jefferson had an affair

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Speaker 1: and had at least one child um, which again, I mean,

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Speaker 1: can you imagine that being on the cover of US

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Speaker 1: Weekly or People magazine today. I mean, we're very close

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Speaker 1: right now in the two thousand and eight election, but

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Speaker 1: you know, not not that close. That's that's pretty scandalous stuff.

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Speaker 1: It is. The blow might have been solten by the

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Speaker 1: fact that Jefferson was a widower, so it wasn't as

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Speaker 1: though he were cheating on a wife with this particular slave.

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Speaker 1: But you know, slaves were considered property. And one of

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Speaker 1: the very interesting things about Jefferson is that, in his

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Speaker 1: advocation of the precepts of liberty and the pursuit of

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Speaker 1: happiness and right to live freely and make one's own decisions,

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Speaker 1: he did not keep in line with other policies that

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Speaker 1: said that slaves couldn't marry. He actually can doone marriages

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Speaker 1: between slaves, you know. So one would like to think

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Speaker 1: that this founding Father was, you know, fostering you know,

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Speaker 1: a tiny shred of happiness and and there otherwise mundane

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Speaker 1: and and and hard working lives. But there's something perhaps

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Speaker 1: a little bit sinister about the fact that if the

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Speaker 1: slaves married and then produced children, their children automatically became

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Speaker 1: his property. So one has to wonder was he running

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Speaker 1: a slave mill essentially? Was he encouraging marriage only so

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Speaker 1: that he could get their offspring and propagate this line

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Speaker 1: of slavery at Monticello. You know, I'm always harping on

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Speaker 1: cultural relativism, which is, you know, you can only judge

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Speaker 1: a culture by its own standards. The same applies to um,

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Speaker 1: to the cultures existent in different times. Right. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: at the time that Jefferson owned slaves, slavery was, like

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Speaker 1: you said, an institution in America. Um. And if you

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Speaker 1: judge it by those standards, then Jefferson treated his slaves

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Speaker 1: better than the average person. Um. I read uh in

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Speaker 1: something you wrote that he preferred to dismiss them from

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Speaker 1: their transgressions rather than have them whipped, that kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: which was pretty much the opposite of what everybody else

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Speaker 1: is doing. So, yeah, he treated his slaves better, but ultimately,

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Speaker 1: as such a pioneer, a great thinker, a philosopher, Um,

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Speaker 1: couldn't he have just set his slaves free? You know? Really? Um?

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Speaker 1: Can you can you say the man had slaves, but

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Speaker 1: he treated his slaves well, But he still had slaves?

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Speaker 1: You know, are we are we using our own cultural bias,

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Speaker 1: our own temporal bias against him or is that something

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Speaker 1: you know, not owning slaves that that goes against any culture,

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Speaker 1: is a is a blemish on any culture, regardless of

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Speaker 1: when they existed. I think that's a really hard question

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Speaker 1: to answer, and especially for me because I'm an ardent

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Speaker 1: admirer of Jeffersons for his political ideologies and some of

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Speaker 1: the things that he accomplished. UM in the realm of

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Speaker 1: invention and architecture and his finest architectural achievement, Monticello his house.

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Speaker 1: UM Monticello means little hill. It was this beautiful home

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Speaker 1: and built on top of a flattened mountaintop in Albemarle

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Speaker 1: County outside Charlottesville, Virginia. Oh yes, I've been there. It's

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Speaker 1: just gorgeous. I could live there, but they won't let me.

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Speaker 1: I'm not banned from its Indeed, maybe with my red hair,

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Speaker 1: I could pretend I was one of his great great

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Speaker 1: great great great grandchildren. There you have it, There you

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Speaker 1: have it. The tour guide I had was wearing a

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Speaker 1: delightful little lily Pulitzer ensemble. That wouldn't be so bad.

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Speaker 1: I could manage that anyway. The point being that his

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Speaker 1: greatest architectural achievement will some may say University of Virginia was,

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Speaker 1: but that was sort of an academic achievement to actually

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Speaker 1: pays homage and as a testament of his treatment of

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Speaker 1: his slaves, because he began Monticello's construction back in seventeen sixty.

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Speaker 1: That was when he started drafting plans, and then a

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Speaker 1: little bit later on he was appointed you as Minister

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Speaker 1: of France. So while he was abroad, he essentially relied

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Speaker 1: upon his slaves to oversee construction and to actually build

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Speaker 1: his magnificent home. And it took nearly forty three years

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Speaker 1: to build because he kept designing and redesigning, and so

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Speaker 1: his most trusted slaves were put in charge of essentially

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Speaker 1: organizing the construction efforts receiving I guess, um, what would

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Speaker 1: I call them? I guess contractors from places like Philadelphia

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Speaker 1: and other cities where they were specialized workers who were

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Speaker 1: skilled and working with things like mahogany and tempered glass.

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Speaker 1: The slaves didn't do that sort of labor. They did

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Speaker 1: the brick laying and the foundation and made the bricks

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Speaker 1: as well. Right they on site from the Red Virginia clay.

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Speaker 1: And so Jefferson obviously put faith and his slaves capabilities,

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Speaker 1: but still at the end of the day, they were slaves,

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Speaker 1: even though some more house slaves they might have had

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Speaker 1: it better. Sally Hemming's actually went with him to France

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Speaker 1: and she was actually, uh, he'd paid for her education.

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Speaker 1: She had probably a better education than than most, um,

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Speaker 1: most of the whites in America at the time put together.

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Speaker 1: Actually when she was she educated in Paris while she

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Speaker 1: was there with him, Yeah, and she was there with

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Speaker 1: his daughters, and she was, you know, there to help

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Speaker 1: be their chaperone. And so it was essential that she

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Speaker 1: being educated and eloquent and well put together woman because

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Speaker 1: she was supposed to guide and mentor his daughters. There's

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Speaker 1: a picture that I saw in your article I found

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Speaker 1: kind of heartening. It was the first ever Hemmings family

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Speaker 1: reunion UM in two thousand three at Monticello. Right, and um,

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Speaker 1: you've got you know, white people, black people, and you realize, wow,

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Speaker 1: they're all related. It really kind of drives home this,

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Speaker 1: um the sense that uh, that we are all kind

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Speaker 1: of the same. Really, you know, I mean that that uh,

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Speaker 1: that that humanity transcends race, and that this photo, this

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Speaker 1: this point that was made by this photo traces itself

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Speaker 1: back to Jefferson. So it's it's like, even when the

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Speaker 1: guy as complex as he is, even when he engages

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Speaker 1: in in scandalous behavior whatever, he has this lasting testament

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Speaker 1: to humanity and to um, to the greater good, that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. It was like, even beyond the grave,

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Speaker 1: he's still you know, making points. Yeah, that he sired

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Speaker 1: a generation of of mixed blood essentially, and you know

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Speaker 1: this was long, long before the Civil rights movement. But

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Speaker 1: I wonder, you know, could Thomas Jefferson have conceived that

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Speaker 1: on the steps of his home, you know, a group

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Speaker 1: of blacks and whites and all these races combined would

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Speaker 1: be a testament to one of the founding fathers? I

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Speaker 1: would I would think not. I think that Um. Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: he probably was either very attracted to Sally Hemmings, who

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Speaker 1: was reportedly an extremely attractive woman, or you know, he

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Speaker 1: loved her, um, And I think it was probably one

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Speaker 1: of those things. That's as simple as that. And I

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Speaker 1: can't imagine that he really had that much foresight. I mean,

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Speaker 1: who does that shot? Although although if anybody did Jefferson

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Speaker 1: probably would have. So we have a lot to thank

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Speaker 1: him for for humanizing the office of the president. You know,

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Speaker 1: when he was President of the US, he had two

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Speaker 1: terms eighteen o one to eighteen o nine, he was

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Speaker 1: sort of, I don't know, not rebuffed, but people looked

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Speaker 1: at him askew because who would answer the door of

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Speaker 1: the then White House essentially um barefoot or in his bathrobe.

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Speaker 1: And he paid no heed to formal ceremony. I mean,

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Speaker 1: of course, you know, there were for formal ceremonies to

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Speaker 1: be held, but he really did bring it to a

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Speaker 1: more casual level. You know, it was a separation from

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Speaker 1: British monarchy, so he didn't see a need for pomp

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Speaker 1: and circumstance. And today, you know, again we see similar things,

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Speaker 1: you know, the sort of ceremonial efforts, um. But and

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Speaker 1: we see pictures of the president at his vacation home

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Speaker 1: or maybe out hunting or with his family or or dogs. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, you get the impression from looking at these

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Speaker 1: pictures from the vacations and these these homes and everything

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Speaker 1: that the president is a fairly wealthy person. Um. And

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Speaker 1: that's the impression I had at Jefferson too, And I

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Speaker 1: have a question for you, actually, if you're ready for it.

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Speaker 1: Um that I had heard that Jefferson, himself, a wealthy landowner,

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Speaker 1: died penniless and broken in debt. It's true, that's true,

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Speaker 1: absolutely fact. He died nearly a hundred seven thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: and debts. How How because let me let me, let

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Speaker 1: me wrap my mind around this Bill and Hillary Clinton.

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Speaker 1: They left the White House in debt, but within a

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Speaker 1: few years they were worth a hundred and ten million dollars.

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Speaker 1: How did Jefferson uh end up dying in debt? He

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Speaker 1: throughout his life was a voracious reader, and he didn't

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Speaker 1: like just buying his books used off Amazon like I do.

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Speaker 1: He wanted first editions, he wanted leather bound copies. He

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Speaker 1: had a massive, massive library. He was constantly redecorating, remodeling,

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Speaker 1: restructuring his home, and all these things added up. And

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Speaker 1: aside from those more mercenary efforts, he was also a

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Speaker 1: really big philanthropist, and it was well known that beggars

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Speaker 1: would come to the steps of Monticello and wait for handouts.

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Speaker 1: He never refused anyone. And he was also a pretty

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Speaker 1: big entertainer. He sort of kept track of people's political

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Speaker 1: records and voting records. After he'd invite them ever for

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Speaker 1: dinner and you know, infuse them with good wine and

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Speaker 1: good food and sort of subtly talked them into seeing

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Speaker 1: things his way. And these expenses added up, you know, entertaining,

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Speaker 1: remodeling and reading, uh, philanthropy. And so when he died,

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Speaker 1: not a penny to his name, his daughter Martha was

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Speaker 1: forced to sell off Monicello. I don't know how much

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Speaker 1: she sold it for. I'll have to look back into that,

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Speaker 1: but she sold it an auction, and later the land

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Speaker 1: and the slaves, everything auctioned off, and it actually changed

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Speaker 1: hands about four times. The house stood before it finally

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Speaker 1: ended up under the care of the Thomas Jfferson Foundation.

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Speaker 1: Appropriately enough, there you have it, and they're the ones

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Speaker 1: responsible for restoring Monticello and making it the tourist destination

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Speaker 1: and archives I guess that it is today. That's fantastic. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well that was a heck of a conversation, Candice. I

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Speaker 1: like that, I know. And well, I have one more

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Speaker 1: little tidbit for you. It's about how how did Thomas

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Speaker 1: Jefferson break his hand in a romantic tumble? And it's

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Speaker 1: actually not as um elicits as I would have you believe.

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Speaker 1: He was picking flowers for his sweetheart with him. He

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Speaker 1: was walking, and he had to scale a small brick

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Speaker 1: wall to pick the flowers, and on his way back

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Speaker 1: down he broke his hand. Well, and that this qualifies

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Speaker 1: the romantic custle. Little Tidbits. For even more jazy tidbits

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Speaker 1: on Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, you can read How

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Speaker 1: Monticello Works on half depth works dot com. For more

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Speaker 1: on Thiss and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com. Let us know what you think. Send

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Speaker 1: an email to podcast at how stuff works dot com