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Speaker 1: Welcome to Steph you missed in history class from dot com. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy B. Wilson and

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Speaker 1: I'm Molly Frying. Oh, the Seventh the Seven Years War

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Speaker 1: has come up before on the podcast, right. It is

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Speaker 1: essentially a world war that spanned from seventeen fifty six

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Speaker 1: to seventeen sixty three, and it was part of a

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Speaker 1: very very long arc of conflict between Britain and France.

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Speaker 1: That arc was so long. But I just want to

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Speaker 1: mention again that, like one time you and I joked

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Speaker 1: that there should be a website that was, like was

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Speaker 1: England at War with France? Dot com? You could just

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Speaker 1: put in a year and the website would tell you

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Speaker 1: in two different listeners obligingly made that website for us.

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Speaker 1: We will link to them in the show notes. So,

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Speaker 1: the North American theater of the Seven Years War is

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Speaker 1: known as the French and Indian War, and it was

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Speaker 1: initially sparked over the question of who should control the

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Speaker 1: Ohio River Valley, whether that was Britain or France. France

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Speaker 1: formed alliances with a number of Native American peoples and nations,

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Speaker 1: Thus the name the French and Indian War it's relatively

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Speaker 1: northern in terms of like what gets the most screen

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Speaker 1: time when people are talking about the French and Indian War,

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Speaker 1: Really the northern part of Britain and France's colonies in

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Speaker 1: North America are where like most of the battles took place.

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Speaker 1: Most of the maps really focused on that part, ranging

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Speaker 1: from northern Virginia and Maryland up through no Nova Scotia

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Speaker 1: and Quebec and what's now Canada. But that is not

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Speaker 1: the only place that this conflict was going on, and

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Speaker 1: today we are going to talk about a more southern

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Speaker 1: part of it, which was the Anglo Cherokee War, which

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Speaker 1: went from seventeen fifty nine to seventeen sixty one. Prior

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Speaker 1: to Europeans arrival in North America, the Cherokee lived in

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Speaker 1: much of what would later become the Southeastern United States

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Speaker 1: that in includes North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, and Alabama.

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Speaker 1: And when European colonists began settling in these areas, the

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Speaker 1: Cherokee and the many other Native American tribes and nations

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Speaker 1: who were living in this part of the world were

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Speaker 1: forced into progressively smaller territory. Introduced diseases including a smallpox

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Speaker 1: outbreak in six reduced their population as well. By the

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Speaker 1: first half of the eighteenth century, the Cherokee Nation was

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Speaker 1: not really established as one formal, monolithic entity. It comprised

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Speaker 1: about sixty towns in and around the southern Appalachian Mountains.

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Speaker 1: Most of these settlements were situated in river valleys to

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Speaker 1: take advantage of the rich soil there, while also having

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Speaker 1: access to places to hunt animals like deer. As the

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Speaker 1: Cherokee developed closer economic ties to the British colonies, deer

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Speaker 1: hunting and the selling of deer hides became an increasingly

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Speaker 1: important part of their way of life. A why of

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Speaker 1: this area can be hard to get to, so for

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Speaker 1: a time these towns had less and less frequent contact

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Speaker 1: with European colonists than areas that were more readily accessible.

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Speaker 1: The Appalachian Mountains formed a natural barrier that offered the

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Speaker 1: Cherokee a degree of protection from both introduced diseases and

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Speaker 1: the colonists themselves. Basically, for a while, epidemics tended to

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Speaker 1: strike Cherokee communities a little bit later than they did

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Speaker 1: other Native American peoples, and its population had more time

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Speaker 1: to recover between them. Consequently, By the turn of the

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Speaker 1: eighteenth century, the Cherokee people's population was roughly twenty thousand,

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Speaker 1: and this included a fighting force of about six thousand.

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Speaker 1: By comparison, in seventeen twenty, Navy neighboring South Carolina had

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Speaker 1: a total population of approximately nine thousand white colonists and

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Speaker 1: twelve thousand enslaved Africans, while North Carolina had roughly ten

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Speaker 1: thousand white colonists and about three thousand enslaved Africans. You'll

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Speaker 1: see some variations in these numbers if you go to

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Speaker 1: research what the population was in the southern colonies. There

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Speaker 1: just was not a lot of official counting in this

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Speaker 1: part of the continent until the seventeen nineties census, which

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Speaker 1: was much later. Yeah, when everybody is estimating their numbers

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Speaker 1: are never quite going to match up. Yeah. I kept

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Speaker 1: trying to find something more precise, and I got lots

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Speaker 1: of wildly different estimates. Yeah, but things really started to

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Speaker 1: shift for the Cherokee people in the seventeen thirties and

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Speaker 1: seventeen forties. In seventeen thirty eight, a massive smallpox epidemic

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Speaker 1: cut its population approximately in half. The total Cherokee fighting

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Speaker 1: force was still larger than those of its most immediate

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Speaker 1: native neighbors, but the colonial populations had continued to grow

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Speaker 1: as well. Soon the white populations of both North Carolina

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Speaker 1: and South Carolina each outnumbered the population of the Cherokee nation.

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Speaker 1: Plus this same mountain region that had offered the Cherokee

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Speaker 1: some protection from it colonial neighbors had sort of turned

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Speaker 1: into this buffer between British territory and French territory, with

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Speaker 1: the Cherokee community itself forming part of that buffer. It

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Speaker 1: was physically positioned between the colonial influences of two massive empires,

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Speaker 1: with each of them trying to expand. This mountainous geography

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Speaker 1: also made it hard for the nation to act as

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Speaker 1: a unified front when dealing with increasing pressure from its

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Speaker 1: British and French neighbors. Mountains and valleys roughly separated the

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Speaker 1: nation's settlements into groups known as towns, the overhill towns,

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Speaker 1: the valley towns, out towns, middletowns, and lower towns. The

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Speaker 1: words and descriptions of these regions varied among Cherokee dialects,

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Speaker 1: and consequently there has been some level of debate about

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Speaker 1: exactly how to classify them. At least three different dialects

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Speaker 1: of the Cherokee language had developed among these towns, and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just the lay of the land that created

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Speaker 1: divisions among the Cherokee. The Cherokee themselves were not particularly

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Speaker 1: centralized or monolithic at this point. For the most part,

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Speaker 1: each town had its own council, with the council house

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Speaker 1: large enough for the whole town to assemble. But even

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Speaker 1: in one single town where everyone spoke the same Cherokee dialect,

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Speaker 1: further divisions often appeared among the Cherokee's seven matrilineal clans.

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Speaker 1: Clan loyalty was often a lot more important than town loyalty,

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Speaker 1: so if the council made a decision that the clan

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Speaker 1: didn't agree with, the clans members typically stuck together. Although

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Speaker 1: the colonial governments in North America often recognized one particular

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Speaker 1: Cherokee leader as being the chief over the entire nation,

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Speaker 1: there wasn't really a unified nation yet, and this person

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Speaker 1: often wasn't someone who was universally recognized as a leader

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Speaker 1: among all of the towns. This contributed to even more divisions,

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Speaker 1: as the British held negotiations with someone who didn't actually

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Speaker 1: speak for the Cherokee as a whole. By the mid

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Speaker 1: seventeen forties, this relatively decentralized Cherokee Nation was really caught

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Speaker 1: in the middle of a huge storm of pressures. The

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Speaker 1: Cherokee lower towns where at war with the Muskogee Creek

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Speaker 1: Nation for about forty years, ending in seventeen fifty five.

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Speaker 1: The proximity of Spanish territory to the newly chartered Colony

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Speaker 1: of Georgia had raised fears among the British that the

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Speaker 1: Spanish would start a slave up uprising with the ultimate

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Speaker 1: goal of taking over Georgia and South Carolina. In its aftermath,

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Speaker 1: France and Britain became more overtly hostile toward one another,

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Speaker 1: as France began trying to establish settlements in the Ohio

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Speaker 1: Valley and generally doing a much better job of forming

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Speaker 1: alliances with Native nations than Britain was doing. The Cherokee

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Speaker 1: had for the most part sided with the British, but

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Speaker 1: the British worried that they would be swayed to the

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Speaker 1: French side, and the Cherokee Nation had become increasingly dependent

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Speaker 1: upon British economic interests through trade, typically the trade in

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Speaker 1: deer hides. That market at this point was becoming oversaturated

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Speaker 1: and white tailed deer were being overhunted, and this was

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Speaker 1: affecting both the Cherokee economy and its food supply. Part

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Speaker 1: of this was due to an increasing number of white

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Speaker 1: colonists who were settling in Long Canes, which was a

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Speaker 1: stretch of territory that was supposed to belong to the

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Speaker 1: Cherokee the Cherokee following a seventeen thirty treaty. There were

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Speaker 1: also widespread reports of fraud by by British traders when

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Speaker 1: the Cherokee came to sell these deer hides, like reports

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Speaker 1: of say twelve pounds of hide being reported as only

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Speaker 1: ten pounds. Through the seventeen forties and seventeen fifties, there

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Speaker 1: were numerous negotiations and treaties between the Cherokee towns and

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Speaker 1: the British colonies, especially South Carolina, outlining land use, trading relationships,

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Speaker 1: and sovereignty. They also involved a number of requests from

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Speaker 1: several directions to build forts in Cherokee territory. One was

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Speaker 1: Fort Prince George under the command of Lachlan Macintosh in

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Speaker 1: the Lower Territory. The other was Fort Loudon in Upper

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Speaker 1: Cherokee Territory. All these things that we've just talked about

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Speaker 1: really just scratched the surface. It's a glimpse into this

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Speaker 1: huge confluence of pressures and disputes that were already in

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Speaker 1: the works when the war broke out. Conflicts between colonists

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Speaker 1: and Native Americans, and we're talking about American history are

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Speaker 1: often depicted as just being about land, but this was

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Speaker 1: way more complicated than that. We will talk about the

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Speaker 1: war that resulted after a by word from a sponsor.

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Speaker 1: So in the spring and summer of seventeen fifty seven,

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Speaker 1: diplomatic relations between Britain and the Cherokee towns were really

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Speaker 1: starting to crumble in Cherokee territory. Colonists from Britain had

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Speaker 1: been encroaching further and further into Long Canes, which, as

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Speaker 1: we said before, was supposed to be Cherokee territory. Also,

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Speaker 1: there wasn't a centralized system among the colonies to negotiate

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Speaker 1: treaties between Britain and the Native people's It was all

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Speaker 1: basically on a colony by colony basis. In the process

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Speaker 1: of trying to secure a trading relationship with Virginia, the

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Speaker 1: Cherokee had sent about two hundred and fifty fighters as

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Speaker 1: part of a larger larger native force to help protect

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Speaker 1: the Virginia frontier from French expansion. This fighting force had

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Speaker 1: arrived in Virginia to find themselves without the presence of

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Speaker 1: provisions and weapons that they had been promised, and without

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Speaker 1: a guide. This lack of provisions was a twofold problem. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: it meant that the Cherokee force did not have the

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Speaker 1: supplies that they needed to do what they were there for.

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Speaker 1: But in addition to that, the Cherokee's cultural view was

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Speaker 1: that these presents were a symbolic seal on their agreement

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Speaker 1: with Britain to provide aid to Virginia. So by failing

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Speaker 1: to deliver, Britain had broken its end of the bargain,

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Speaker 1: and not for the first time. This prompted the Cherokee.

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Speaker 1: He forced to take what they needed from plantations that

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Speaker 1: they passed, and, according to at least one account, to

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Speaker 1: kill a member of another tribe who objected to what

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Speaker 1: they were doing. Then that November, four Lower Towns Cherokee

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Speaker 1: hunters were killed by white colonists from long canes. These

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Speaker 1: killings were incredibly gruesome. The bodies had been scalped, and

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Speaker 1: the perpetrators also stole and sold the skins from their

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Speaker 1: victims dear. Following the terms of their seventeen thirty treaty

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Speaker 1: with Britain, the Cherokee petition South Carolina Governor William Henry

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Speaker 1: Littleton for justice. The governor's response was, from the Cherokee

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Speaker 1: point of view, not satisfactory at all. He said that

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Speaker 1: if the guilty party were found, they would of course

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Speaker 1: be punished, but that he couldn't condone an innocent person

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Speaker 1: being punished for something that he wasn't actually personally involved with.

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Speaker 1: The Cherokee worldview was that Britain was collectively responsible for

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Speaker 1: the killing, and so Britain needed to be brought to justice,

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Speaker 1: but Britain's point of view was that such a justice

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Speaker 1: was only possible if the individual guilty parties were actually found.

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Speaker 1: The governor also avoided the issue of colonial encroachment into

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Speaker 1: Long Kanes entirely. This idea of collective responsibility and justice

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Speaker 1: was a huge factor in the Cherokees perspective on the war.

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Speaker 1: The following March, five Virginia colonists were killed in what

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Speaker 1: may have been an act of revenge, although there's some

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Speaker 1: documentation to suggest that it was actually sparked by the

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Speaker 1: theft of horses. This apparent act of retribution, though, set

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Speaker 1: off a series of violent incidents between the Cherokee fighting

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Speaker 1: force and Virginia colonists, with approximately twenty Cherokee being killed

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Speaker 1: in Virginia. This stoked massive anti British sentiment in the

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Speaker 1: Cherokee Nation, and on September seventeenth, seventeen fifty eight, the

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Speaker 1: Lower Town's Cherokee informed Lachland Macintosh at Prince George that

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Speaker 1: they were sending a war party to Virginia for revenge.

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Speaker 1: McIntosh sent word to Governor Littleton and convinced the Cherokee

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Speaker 1: to wait for his answer. Littleton's response arrived in October,

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Speaker 1: and in it he did promise restitution for the Cherokee

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Speaker 1: who had been killed in the form of gifts, but

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Speaker 1: he fell back once again to the British worldview of

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Speaker 1: needing to find the individual culprit before administering justice. He

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Speaker 1: also admonished the Cherokee nation for not taking its complaints

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Speaker 1: to Francis Fauqier, who was the Lieutenant Governor of Virginia,

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Speaker 1: and the Governor. Littleton stressed that the Cherokee Nation had

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Speaker 1: no right to declare war on the entire colony. Of

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Speaker 1: Virginia for the actions of a few people. Even though

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Speaker 1: it wasn't a particularly satisfactory answer from the Cherokee perspective,

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Speaker 1: this letter, combined with the efforts of Cherokee leaders to

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Speaker 1: maintain calm, did lead to an uneasy piece, which lasted

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Speaker 1: until the following February of seventeen fifty nine. The winter

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Speaker 1: had been quite difficult, and most of the Cherokee towns

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Speaker 1: were low on supplies and poorly armed. Word reached the

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Speaker 1: Cherokee nation that Atta Kula Coula, a leader who had

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Speaker 1: a reputation for negotiation and peace building, had been treated

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Speaker 1: poorly by the British while he was in Virginia. He

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Speaker 1: and his party were still away, and while they were gone,

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Speaker 1: further rumors began to spread that Britain was going to

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Speaker 1: attack the now poorly defended Cherokee nation directly. However, when

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Speaker 1: Atta Kula Coola returned home in March, he smoothed things over.

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Speaker 1: He downplayed what had been admittedly not very great treatment

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Speaker 1: in Virginia, and after a series of councils that lasted

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Speaker 1: into April, it seemed like the Cherokee and the British

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Speaker 1: would continue to be at peace. If kind of uneasily.

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Speaker 1: But then, on April twenty six of seventeen fifty nine,

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Speaker 1: a renegade Cherokee fighting force attacked a series of settlements

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Speaker 1: in North Carolina along Yadkin and Cataba Rivers, killing and

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Speaker 1: scalping as many as twenty colonists, including children. The majority

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Speaker 1: of headman in the Cherokee Nation did not condone this

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Speaker 1: series of raids and denounced them outright. At a Kulakula,

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Speaker 1: who was in the middle of trying to negotiate a

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Speaker 1: greater piece with Virginia, suspected that these raids were a

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Speaker 1: deliberate attempt to undermine his efforts. This act of violence

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Speaker 1: against North Carolina, though, led Governor at Littleton of South

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Speaker 1: Carolina to implement a trade embargo against the Cherokee Nation,

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Speaker 1: meaning that the Cherokee could no longer buy the ammunition

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Speaker 1: that they needed to hunt deer or sell the hides

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Speaker 1: of the deer back to South Carolina. As we said earlier,

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Speaker 1: South Carolina was their biggest trading partner at this point,

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Speaker 1: and this trade had become a big staple of the

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Speaker 1: Cherokee economy, and consequently, deer who were being hunted for

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Speaker 1: their hides to sell had become a major food source,

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Speaker 1: so this embargo was disastrous. A delegation of peacemakers went

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Speaker 1: to Littleton in Charlestown which would later be Charleston to

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Speaker 1: try to work out in agreement. In October of seventeen

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Speaker 1: fifty nine. Littleton refused to accept the deer hides the

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Speaker 1: delegation had brought as a gift, and then took the

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Speaker 1: delegation hostage, saying he would only release them in exchange

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Speaker 1: for the Cherokee who had committed the April raids in

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Speaker 1: North Carolina. This really flew in the face of diplomatic

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Speaker 1: protocols uh and this delegation under armed guard was being

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Speaker 1: brought back to Fort Prince George when they encountered a

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Speaker 1: second piece delegation that was also in route to Charlestown

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Speaker 1: representing different Cherokee towns. Littleton and his men captured most

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Speaker 1: of this second delegation as well, although four of the

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Speaker 1: of the Cherokee headman escaped. Having seen these other delegates

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Speaker 1: from the first delegation under armed guard, they returned to

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Speaker 1: Cherokee's territory with the report that the headsman from multiple

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Speaker 1: Cherokee towns were being treated as slaves. Uh there was,

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Speaker 1: prior to contact with the Europeans not a lot of

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Speaker 1: different difference between the terms prisoner and slave in most

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Speaker 1: Cherokee dialects, so this basically led to a huge rumor

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Speaker 1: that Britain was going to come and enslave all of

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Speaker 1: the Cherokee. And not long after Littleton finally arrived in

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Speaker 1: Fort Prince George in December, a smallpox epidemic weakened his

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Speaker 1: already exhausted force. The epidemic then spread through the diplomats

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Speaker 1: and the Cherokee hostages in the fort. At first, at

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Speaker 1: A Kulakula kept trying to negotiate a peace, and he

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Speaker 1: was able to free part of the delegation in exchange

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Speaker 1: for the promise that four of the people involved in

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Speaker 1: that North Carolina attack would surrender themselves. In the end,

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Speaker 1: though those four refused to go, and at A Kula

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Speaker 1: Coula had to go into hiding with his family. The

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Speaker 1: freed hostages also became bitterly resentful of Written for having

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Speaker 1: imprisoned them in the first place. Following the deaths of

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Speaker 1: several Cherokee hostages due to smallpox in the fort, this

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Speaker 1: ongoing series of incidents blossomed into an all out war.

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Speaker 1: Beginning in January and February of seventeen sixty, the Cherokee

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Speaker 1: laid siege to Fort Prince George and Fort Loudon and

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Speaker 1: massacred colonists in the surrounding frontier settlements. The worst of

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Speaker 1: these massacres was on February first, seventeen sixty, when a

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Speaker 1: band of Cherokee fighters attacked a caravan of Scott's Irish

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Speaker 1: colonists who were retreating from their settlement in Long Canes.

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Speaker 1: These colonists are trying to get back to Fort More

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Speaker 1: near Augusta, Georgia. About a hundred Cherokee attacked roughly a

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty fleeing colonists, killing twenty three of them,

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Speaker 1: including John C. Calhoun's grandmother Catherine. On February sixteenth, a

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Speaker 1: party of Cherokee headman went to Fort Prince George to

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Speaker 1: parlay with Lieutenant Richard quite Moore, who was then in

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Speaker 1: manned and once lured out of the fort, quite Moore

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Speaker 1: was ambushed. Several in his party were injured, and quite

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Speaker 1: Moore ended up dying of his wounds. British soldiers in

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Speaker 1: the fort went to make sure this wasn't an escape attempt,

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Speaker 1: One was killed and another wounded by the prisoners. In response,

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00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 1: the British force opened fire and killed fourteen Cherokee leaders

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Speaker 1: who had been imprisoned there. Following this massacre of Cherokee

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Speaker 1: diplomats at Fort Prince George, Cherokee raids against the colonists

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00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,720
Speaker 1: in and around the Appalachian Mountains increased. Most of the

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Speaker 1: Cherokee towns that had been against war with Britain wound

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Speaker 1: up joining the battle as well. Because much of Britain's

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Speaker 1: fighting force in North America was at this point devoted

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Speaker 1: to fighting in the French and Indian Wars more northern theater,

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Speaker 1: Britain's initial attempts to win the war were small and unsuccessful.

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Speaker 1: Reinforcements were called in from North Carolina and with a

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Speaker 1: force from Fort Dobbs and but Fabra, attempting to resist

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Speaker 1: the Cherokee and rescue colonists. Colonel Archibald Montgomery, sent in

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Speaker 1: from New York, destroyed several Cherokee villages in the lower

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Speaker 1: Towns and attempted to do the same in the Middletowns,

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Speaker 1: but on June he was defeated by a Cherokee ambush.

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Speaker 1: Believing he had at that point done is ordered Montgomery

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Speaker 1: and his force withdrew. He was basically like, I think

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Speaker 1: I've done what they asked me to do, so I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna leave now. Another relief force commanded by Colonel William Bird,

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Speaker 1: attempted to relieve the besieged Fort Loudon and July, but

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Speaker 1: also failed. The fort eventually surrendered to the Cherokee force

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Speaker 1: besieging it, and many of the British force stationed there

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Speaker 1: wound up being massacred in return for the Cherokee delegates

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Speaker 1: who had been previously massacred earlier at Fort Prince George.

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Speaker 1: Lieutenant Colonel James Grant arrived in Charlestown, South Carolina, which

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Speaker 1: again is now Charleston in January of seventeen sixty one.

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Speaker 1: He and a fighting force of nearly three thousand, the

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Speaker 1: largest that Britain had sent in response to the fighting

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Speaker 1: in Cherokee Territory, began to systematically move through the territory.

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Speaker 1: Grant's force destroyed at least fifteen Cherokee towns, mostly among

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Speaker 1: the middle and outtowns, and destroyed nearly one thousand, five

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Speaker 1: hundred acres of corn. At this point after three years

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Speaker 1: of fighting, a coalition of eight headman from the Overhill

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00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,159
Speaker 1: towns sued for peace. They brought beads from each of

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Speaker 1: the remaining Cherokee towns as a show that they did

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Speaker 1: have the right to speak for the whole nation. A

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00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 1: peace treaty between the Cherokee Nation and Virginia was signed

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00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 1: on July twentieth, seventeen sixty one, and one with South

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00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 1: Carolina was signed on December eighteenth of seventeen sixty one.

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Speaker 1: Uh And we will talk about the aftermath of all

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Speaker 1: this after another brief word from a sponsor. So, the

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Speaker 1: population of the Cherokee Nation was obviously dramatically affected by

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Speaker 1: the Anglo Cherokee War, both through losses in battle and

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00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: through the widespread destruction of towns and crops. About a

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00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 1: third of the Cherokee population died during the war and

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Speaker 1: in its immediate aftermath, and over the next fifteen years

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Speaker 1: basically right up until the start of the Revolutionary War,

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Speaker 1: the nation gradually seated nearly fifty thousand square miles of

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Speaker 1: land to Britain. This war also helped solidify the Cherokee

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Speaker 1: Nation into a more centralized leadership structure. There in the

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Speaker 1: destruction of so many towns in the Cherokee territory, a

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Speaker 1: lot of Cherokee basically became refugees, and so communities that

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Speaker 1: had previously been separated by geography started living together. And

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00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 1: the subsequent years, the idea of meeting a principal chief

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Speaker 1: who could officially speak for the whole nation started to

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Speaker 1: take hold, and the Cherokee Nation as an actual official,

359
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: formal entity was formed in seventeen ninety four. The war

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00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: affected the Anglo colonists as well. The fighting led to evacuations,

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Speaker 1: often to British forts that then became overcrowded, which led

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Speaker 1: to disease. Enslaved Africans also took the opportunity to escape

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Speaker 1: during this chaos, and the number of escapes during this

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Speaker 1: time roughly doubled. As we noted at the top of

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Speaker 1: the show, the Anglo Cherokee War was connected to the

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Speaker 1: French and Indian War, and when that greater war ended

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Speaker 1: in seventeen sixty three, Britain wound up with control of

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Speaker 1: Canada and Florida, as well as previously held French territory

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Speaker 1: east of the Mississippi River. This meant that the Cherokee

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Speaker 1: Nation was no longer in this position of being surrounded

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Speaker 1: by three different colonial governments, but instead, the acquisition of

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00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 1: this land started paving the way for Britain's later expansion

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Speaker 1: into and through Cherokee territory. This expansion would eventually culminate

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Speaker 1: in the Indian Removal Act of eighteen thirty, after which

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Speaker 1: the Cherokee and other tribes and nations in the area,

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Speaker 1: including the Muskogee Creek, the Seminole, the Choctaw, and the Chickasaw,

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Speaker 1: were all forcibly removed to Oklahoma. There were also a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who resisted the Removal Act, and that

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00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: is why, for example, there is an Eastern band of

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Speaker 1: the Cherokee that's headquartered in North Carolina, and then two

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00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: other federally recognized Cherokee tribes that are headquartered in Oklahoma.

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Speaker 1: And while you were researching, uh, I think you found

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Speaker 1: a quote that kind of artfully sums up all of this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's in the words of James Adair, who published a

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Speaker 1: book on North America's Native American populations in seventeen seventy five,

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Speaker 1: and he said, quote, we forced the Cherokee to become

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Speaker 1: our bitter enemies by a long train of wrong measures,

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Speaker 1: that's the Anglo Cherokee War. It's this is one of

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Speaker 1: those episodes that as I got into it just kept

390
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 1: turning out to be a more and more complicated tangle

391
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 1: of more and more factors. Yeah, there's so much back

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00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: and forth to it. Yeah, like it's such an escalation

393
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 1: that happens in these tiny steps that are sort of

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00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 1: blooming into larger and larger scenarios that. Yeah. Well, and

395
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: then later on a number of the British officials who

396
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: had been involved in it were like that was the

397
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: wrong move, Like not that that helped at all, right,

398
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: Like the hindsight, they were like that we could have

399
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: prevented that if we had done these things differently. So, yeah,

400
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: I wanted to do some more Native American history and

401
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: I wanted to do some Cherokee history that was not

402
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: the removal, because I feel like that's the part that

403
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people learned, especially if you're from North

404
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: Carolina or Oklahoma. Um. But yeah, even so, that's still

405
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: just a huge complicated tangle. I'm hoping you have peppy

406
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: listener mail and do well, it's at least much funnier

407
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: than this. So this is one of many notes that

408
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: we have gotten along these same lines. I just picked

409
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: one of them. This one's from Will because we had

410
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 1: asked in our episode on Butter versus Margarine if somebody

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Speaker 1: from UH, from Wisconsin could just confirm the thing that

412
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: we had trouble confirming, which is whether it's still illegal

413
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: to reserve margarine in a restaurant. UH. And this is

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00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: one of those things where, after lots of people sent

415
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: me the link, when I tried googling the same thing,

416
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: I was like, there it is. Why was this not

417
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: there when I tried before we recorded? So Will says,

418
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: I just want to confirm that, yes, Wisconsin still has

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00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 1: laws on the books regarding oleo margarine, with penalties that

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00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 1: include fines an imprisonment up to a year. May I

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00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 1: present to you Wisconsin State Statute ninety seven point one

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00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: eight so, he says, as a native Scannie, I'm constantly

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00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: reminded about ninety seven point one eight four. When I

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Speaker 1: travel outside the state and stop for breakfast, I look

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00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: for butter for my toast, and all I can find

426
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: on the table is margarine. WHEREZ in Wisconsin pro statute,

427
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: you would never find any margarine on a table in

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Speaker 1: a restaurant. I also vividly recall the early nineteen eighties

429
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: sitting around my grandmother's kitchen table and hearing all the

430
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: family stories of Olio smuggling trips to those gas stations

431
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: in Illinois. As a kid, I thought my leg was

432
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: being pulled alcohol running during prohibition. Now that makes sense,

433
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: but running margarine. And then he sends Will uh so, yes,

434
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: thank you too, Will and all the other folks who

435
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: sent me the actual name of the statute. I, like

436
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 1: I said, I'm not sure why I had so much

437
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: trouble finding it while I was researching the thing. It's

438
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: possible because some time has passed that I did find it,

439
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: and I wasn't sure if that law was still in

440
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: effect or not, because sometimes state governments like haven't updated

441
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: the website yet to include the things that have been

442
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: recently removed. So yeah, this this act basically spells out

443
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: number one, exactly what margarine is, including what color it

444
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: is on the love of bon tentometer that we've talked

445
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: about before. H And then it sets all of these

446
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: things about how if you want to sell margarine reads Alee,

447
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: it has to be packaged, it has to be a pound,

448
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: there has to have the words oleo margarine or margarine

449
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: on it with a specific type, and like there has

450
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,479
Speaker 1: to be enough contrast with the background. You can't like

451
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: use really pale lettering to have the word margarine on there. Um,

452
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: And it gets into this whole bit about how in

453
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: public eating places it has to be required by customers. Um.

454
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 1: You also can't serve it to students, patients or inmates

455
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: of state institutions as as a substitute for butter and like,

456
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: unless there is a specific reason, like ordered by a position. Um.

457
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: And then it gets into the fines and possible imprisonment.

458
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: So thank you will and all the other folks who

459
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: sent us the information that yes, this law is still

460
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: actually in effect. If you'd like to write to us

461
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: about this or any other podcast, where History podcasts at

462
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com. We're also on Facebook at

463
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: facebook dot com slash miss in history and on Twitter

464
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,960
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00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 1: dot tomble dot com, and we're also on panterst at

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00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: pitchs dot com slash missed in History. Our instagram is

467
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: missing history, and you can come to our website which

468
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: is missing history dot com to find h shore notes

469
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: for this episode and all the other episodes Holly and

470
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: I have worked on together, plus an archive of every

471
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: episode ever. You can also come to our parent company's website,

472
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: which is how stuff works dot com to look up

473
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,000
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474
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: that and a whole lot more at how stuff works

475
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: dot com or missed in history dot com For more

476
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how

477
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: stuff works dot