WEBVTT - Time Traveler Zero, Part 2 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.400 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:14.840 Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:18.040 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:22.560 we are picking up with our our second episode about 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:26.800 time travel as a concept, time travel as it appears, 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:32.200 especially in fiction and the human imagination. The first episode 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:36.080 was Time Traveler zero Part one. Uh. Then we had 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.000 a little break and did another episode, and now we're 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:42.160 back with Time Traveler zero Part two. Now, I thought 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:44.400 this was going to be in one, but I guess 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.599 we wait, no, we're already in one. I get all 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:49.559 confused about years. I thought it was going to be 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:53.440 next year. But yeah, yeah, but then we ended up 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:55.800 shuffling some stuff around. So here we are earlier than 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.600 we thought. Yeah. Yeah, so we were just traveling back 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:02.880 and forth, uh, between past and future. Uh, though within 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:07.759 the the artificial confines of of our publication schedule. Now, 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.640 in the last episode, we talked about some of the 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:17.800 earliest possible appearances of forms of time travel in mythology 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:21.320 and literature, such as in the the Mahabarata and in 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.240 some say Japanese folk tales, where the way you could 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:28.360 probably describe the time travel mechanism is something like time dilations. 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.840 So uh so, for example, the the story of King 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:37.240 Ravada and his daughter Ravati in the in the Sanskrit 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:39.360 epics that would you know, they travel up to the 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.240 Brahma realm and they stay there for a few minutes. 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.720 But then they find because time moves differently in the 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.720 Brahma realm than it does down on Earth, millions of 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.000 years have passed and whoops, like that, their entire civilization 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.880 has gone and it's on to a different age. But 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:56.120 I think today we're going to look at a similar 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.640 but slightly different mechanism that appears in the history of 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:05.880 time travel mythology and literature, which is sleeping into the future. Yeah, 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:08.320 and this is this is one of the concepts that's 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.760 discussed in Paul J. Nayan's book Time Machines, Time Travel 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.960 in Physics, Metaphysics and Science Fiction, which is a book 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.359 that I I cited in the first episode. And we'll 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:21.079 continue to decide from this if you if you're looking 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.320 for a good time travel book that deals with like 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.760 the concept of time travel but also gets into some 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:28.920 of the heavier scientific contemplations of the topic. It's a 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.400 great book. To pick up. So Naan discusses that time 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:36.960 travel by dreaming was once a common literary device. And yeah, 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.560 that it's closely related to this idea of sleeping into 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.240 the future, the and and and this is something I 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.960 love because this is something that we can all relate 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:48.480 to because we all do it every night. Right. Well, 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:50.480 we lay our head down on the pillow, and you know, 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:52.240 there might be a little bit of struggle getting the 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:56.120 time machine activated. But once the once sleep mode is 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:00.200 in place, um, you were able to skip for word 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.560 in time. Now depending on how you sleep in the 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:06.440 nature of your dreams. Uh, you know, not every journey 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:08.000 is going to be the same. Some of these journeys 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.320 are a little round about, um, you know where suddenly 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.560 we have to you know, stop and how to to 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:16.959 to steal a joke from Mitch Hedberg, we have to 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.440 let um uh build a toy playing with our boss 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:25.760 or something before getting to our destination. Uhart with my 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.560 landlord was go kart with the landlord. That was a 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.120 um yeah it say so. There might be some distractions 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.160 on the way, but when you wake up, it will 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:36.520 be tomorrow, it will be the next day, it will 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.720 be the next morning. Though one thing that's interesting about 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.520 that is, uh that I think if you ever have 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:46.920 the experience of going under general anesthesia and being able 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:51.560 to compare that experience to the normal experience of sleep, 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:53.520 at least for me, and I think this is pretty 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.760 common for others as well, the comparison to anesthesia makes 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:01.520 you aware that you are sort of semi conscious of 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.240 the passage of time during sleep in a way that 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.720 you're not really for the like the pure deep unconsciousness 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.280 of anesthesia, where I mean under the drugs, it's just 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.400 sort of like, you know, you snap your fingers and 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.880 then you're awake hours later, or at least that that's 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:18.680 sort of what I recall. But with with sleeping, you know, 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:21.560 you're not really conscious of the passage of time, but 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:25.480 you're you're sort of maybe liminally conscious that something is 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.960 going on. Time is somehow passing. It's not quite as 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.800 much of a pause and then play as as anesthesia is. Oh, 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:36.119 I agree, absolutely, That's been my experience. Um. I guess 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:40.000 when you sleep and when you dream, time gets weird, uh, 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.520 and it may it may feel like it passes very quickly, 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:47.000 but when you go into anesthesia, um, time just disappears. Completely. 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:48.880 It is, like you said, just the like the snap 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:53.040 of a finger. Um. So, so yeah, that's something important 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.840 to keep in mind. But but but obviously, you know, 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.560 people for you know, thousands and thousands of years would 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:00.760 have been privy to this, this we good situation. And 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:02.839 maybe it's not even that weird because it does happen 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.599 every night. Though I would argue that the world of 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:09.440 dreams always offers a little weirdness. Uh. People would be 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:12.800 familiar with this, um this phenomena, and so we see 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:16.159 a play out in various stories. Uh. Probably the most 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.440 famous of these um still to this day is is 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.120 going to be Washington Irving's eighteen nineteen story Rip van Winkle, 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:26.360 in which a man sleeps his way twenty years into 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.680 the future. Now, of course, this this would become a 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.400 pretty standard trope of of of science fiction, especially when 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.200 you get into the realm of suspended animation. Uh. This 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:39.040 of course was parodied in the long running sci fi 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:44.159 animated series Futurama, where Fry essentially sleeps into the future 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:49.040 via cryogenics, but you as also find it in various 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.560 other works. One that Nayan mentions is um it was 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:56.479 is H. G. Wells when the Sleeper awakes from eighteen 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.400 nine nine, which is is not what I've read, not 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:01.239 when I was from eliar with But this one involves 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:04.719 a sleep jaunt from the year eighteen ninety seven to 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.120 the year so you wake up and there are some 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:11.560 giant flying machines that look kind of like skeletal butterflies 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.520 or something. Oh yeah, there's some wonderful illustrations from this 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:17.360 that I was able to look up that I believe 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:20.200 we're part of the original published story. And yeah, they're 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.839 black and white, and yeah, there's like they're like enormous structures. 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.600 They are these flying machines that look like the they 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:28.960 look kind of like the ornithopters that the Wookies are 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:33.400 using in the Star Wars movies. Uh, really cool looking stuff. 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.960 There was also a seventeen seventy one tale by L. S. 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:40.880 Mercy Or about an eighteenth century sleeper who awakes in 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.159 the twenty five century. And I just have to say, 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.400 I love how so many of these time travel yarns 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.160 they're just really jumping out there. You know, they're going, uh, 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:55.120 you know, hundreds of years into the future. I wonder again, 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:56.760 I think I contemplated this a little bit in our 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.920 last episode, like, what does it say about a give 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.560 and time period, how far into the future time their 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:08.120 fictional time travelers are going now. One of the things 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.720 that Nan points out is that sleeping into the future 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:13.600 is quite an old trope, and uh it might well 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.600 be the oldest time travel concept in human storytelling. I 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.040 don't think any of the examples we're looking at would 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.440 go back farther than the Maha Barta, which did not 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.680 involve sleeping and was more of the time dilation version. 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.080 But but certainly it does go way back. I'm going 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:32.080 to cite a an example of sleeping into the future 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:34.680 from the ancient world in just a minute here. Well, 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:38.040 the one that that Naan shares is from around six D. 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:42.280 Gregory of Tours told a story titled the Seven Sleepers 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:46.400 of Ephesus, who traveled three hundred and seventy two years 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.640 via sleep whoa sometimes known as the Seven Sleepers. This 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.480 is a medieval tale told about a group of Christian 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:57.000 youths who hide in a cave outside of of the 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:01.520 city around to fifty c in order to escape Roman persecution, 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.240 and they emerge. I think that the exact number of 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:07.800 years they sleep varies I've seen three, I've seen three 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.200 seventy two. But they they wake up and they find 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.720 that the that everything has changed. The city is now 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:16.840 a city of believers and um and and a version 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.400 of this tale is also found in the Qoran. Now 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:22.920 that's interesting because it shows one of the things that 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:27.760 time travel is sometimes used to do in literature and 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.960 folk tales, which is to, uh, to sort of vindicate 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:36.280 a person's reputation or point of view, to to show 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.920 sort of like, yep, the future acknowledged they were right. 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:42.920 So these people go and fall asleep in a cave 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:45.840 as a persecuted minority and then come out and their 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:49.880 side is finally vindicated and has taken over. Yeah, and 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.000 and I guess on on a simpler level, it's it's 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:55.840 about using the time travel story to compare the past 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:58.280 and the future or the past in the present, whichever 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:02.640 compare two points of time, and have some character or 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.559 characters involved as the bridge between the two that can 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:07.920 provide a point of view. Yeah, that's right. So the 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:12.160 stories uh allow a level of perspective that doesn't occur 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:14.680 in reality. That you know that you can see two 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.360 things that a person in reality can can never see. 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:21.360 Both of two different ages. UH. But I found an 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:23.959 example I thought was really interesting because it turns out 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.160 sleeping into the future actually goes back even farther than, 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.560 uh than the seven Sleepers of Ephesus. I wanted to 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:34.000 talk about a really interesting example I came across in 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:37.640 the stories of the first century b c. E. Jewish 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:42.760 scholar and a legend miracle worker named Honey the Circle Maker. Now, 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.680 I think his best historians can tell Honey was a 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.840 real person. This is not like a purely legendary figure, 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:51.400 though I think some of the accounts of his life 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.720 are obviously probably legendary. But but it seems like this 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:56.680 was a real guy. He was a real scholar who 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:59.000 lived in the first century b c. E. He's not 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.760 mentioned in the he Brew Bible or the Tannock. He 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.240 he lived after the books of the Tannock were composed, 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:08.440 but stories about him are preserved in the Talmud, the 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.440 collection of of Jewish law and uh commentary known as 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.760 the Talmud. And he gets his epithet the circle Maker 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.800 or sometimes the circle drawer from the most famous story 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:23.320 about his life, which which I will tell now. And 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.480 I'm summarizing the version that appears in the Babylonian Talmud, 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.280 which I found in full text English translation with a 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:37.120 nice searchable online version called the William Davidson Digital Edition 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.920 of the Talmud. It's got both English and modern Hebrew 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:42.640 side by side, so it looks like a very usable edition. 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:45.880 But anyway, the story of the most famous miracle goes 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.959 like this. So there's this Jewish scholar named Honey Uh 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:51.679 and he is living in a time of drought, and 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:54.240 the people come to him and ask Honey to pray 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.880 to God that rain might fall. And Hony seems very 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.520 confident that he's going to get results be because he 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:02.680 tells the people that they need to go and bring 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.960 their clay ovens inside because there's about to be so 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.600 much rain that the clay will dissolve in the downpour. Yeah, 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:12.240 you don't want that happen. So Hony prays, but no 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:16.360 rain comes, and in response, Hony steps it up. So 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:18.840 he draws a circle in the dust on the ground, 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:23.040 and he stands inside the circle, and then he says, quote, 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.080 Master of the Universe, your children have turned to their 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:28.640 faces towards me, as I am like a member of 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.600 your household. Therefore I take an oath by your great name, 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.120 that I will not move from here until you have 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.920 mercy upon your children and answer their prayers for rain. 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.080 And apparently it works, because a little sprinkling of rain 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:48.079 then begins, but it's a weak rain. So Hony is 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.120 not satisfied, and he prays to God again, saying quote, 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:53.640 I did not ask for this, but for rain to 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.960 fill the cisterns, ditches and caves with enough water to 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:00.760 last the entire year. So then the rain picks up 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:05.920 and it starts to pour violently, mightily rushing rain. Uh. 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.240 And Hony isn't quite happy with this either, so he says, quote, 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:11.960 I did not ask for this damaging rain either, but 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.880 for rain of benevolence, blessing and generosity. I kind of 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.440 like that he's, uh, he's kind of standing up to 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:22.360 the Hebraic God in a way that you know, you 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.600 don't see in in various other stories, certainly you don't 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.240 see and say, like the Book of job right, there's 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.960 a very different attitude. Yeah, with Tony here and and 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.720 his sort of almost rudeness with God is is something 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:36.960 that does come up in a controversy in the epilogue 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.280 to the story, but just to quickly finish the story. Uh, 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:43.280 the narrative says quote. Subsequently, the rains fell in their 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.959 standard manner, but continued unabated, filling the city with water 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.839 until all of the Jews exited the residential areas of 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.960 Jerusalem and went to the Temple Mount due to the rain. 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.480 So he calls for rain and God provides it. But 0:12:57.679 --> 0:12:59.959 then there's sort of an epilogue where there's like contraver 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.040 vers see about several things. First of all, the people 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.680 ask is it writing too much? Should should Hony pray 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.320 to God to make it stop now? And they have 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.520 a back and forth about that. But then also it's 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:13.800 the question is raised, you know, was there kind of 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.760 something wrong with the way Hony was was nagging God 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:19.680 for rain? Like the text, actually the English translation I 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.240 was looking at uses the word nag. But ultimately the 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.160 scholars conclude that, you know, Hony is okay because God 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.440 responded to his please without reprimand, and so it seems 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.560 like Hony's relationship with God is good. Well he was 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.640 like a member of his households. Yeah, exactly, they go 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.199 way back. So that's Hony the circle maker. But how 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.720 it becomes relevant to time travel is there is actually 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:46.120 a story of Hony sleeping into the future. Uh. And 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.920 this story is also from the Babylonian Talmud. It is 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.679 attributed to a Rabbi Johannan and I just want to 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:54.440 read it here and then we can talk about it 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.280 a bit quote. All the days of the life of 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.640 that righteous man Hony, he was destroy rest over the 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:04.520 meaning of this verse A song of a sense. When 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.839 the Lord brought back those who returned to Zion, we 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:12.680 were like those who dream Psalms one one. He said 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.600 to himself, is there really a person who can sleep 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.920 and dream for seventy years? How is it possible to 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:23.480 compare the seventy year exile in Babylonia to a dream. 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:25.960 One day he was walking along the road when he 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:29.480 saw a certain man planting a carab tree. Honey said 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.320 to him, this tree, after how many years will it 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.040 bear fruit? The man said to him, it will not 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:39.760 produce fruit until seventy years have passed. Honey said to him, 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.200 is it obvious to you that you will live seventy 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.720 years that you expect to benefit from this tree? He 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.000 said to him, that man himself found a world full 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.560 of carab trees just as my ancestors planted for me, 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.320 I too, implanting for my descendants. Okay, so you know 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:58.440 it takes this tree seventy years to grow. He's but 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.040 he's not planting it, hoping to read up the fruits himself. 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:03.480 I guess these would be legum pods that grow off 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.280 of the charab tree um. You know, he's planting for 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.760 for future generations, his his descendants. But the story goes on. 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:14.200 So it says Honey sat and ate bread. Sleep overcame 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:18.120 him and he slept. A cliff formed around him, and 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:22.480 he disappeared from sight and slept for seventy years. When 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.600 he awoke, he saw a certain man gathering caribs from 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.760 that tree. Honey said to him, are you the one 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.880 who planted this tree? The man said to him, I 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:35.760 am his son's son. Honey said to him, I can 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:38.640 learn from this that I have slept for seventy years. 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:42.280 And indeed he saw his donkey had sired several herds 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.920 during those many years. Hony went home and said to 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.880 the members of the household, is the son of Hony 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:52.440 the circle Maker alive? They said to him, his son 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.480 is no longer with us, but his son's son is alive. 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.800 He said to them, I am Hony the circle Maker. 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.360 They did not believe him. They went to the study hall, 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:06.560 where he heard the sages say about one scholar his halicot. 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.720 And I think this word means um like religious laws 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:15.960 or writings of or about religious laws. His halicott are 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.560 as enlightening and as clear as in the years of 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:21.440 Hony the circle Maker. For when Tony would enter the 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.640 study hall, he would resolve for the stages any difficulty 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.320 they had. Honey said to them, I am he. But 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.920 they did not believe him and did not pay him 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:36.280 proper respect. Honey became very upset, prayed for mercy, and died. 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.160 And then it offers a bit of commentary. Rava said, 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:43.840 this explains the folk saying where when people say either 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:47.160 friendship or death, as one who has no friends is 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:51.120 better off dead. Oh wow, I thought this was a 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:54.240 really interesting story, and so there are a bunch of 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.800 things about it. One is that it ties into a 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:01.040 common theme of sleeping into the future, which is the 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.560 passing away of everything that one cares about in the presence. 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:08.840 So Hony sleeps seventy years into the future, but he's 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.239 not confronted with You know, when we think of like 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:14.080 time travel and science fiction going into the future, a 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.000 lot of it is it is like people want to 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:19.879 see amazing new types of technology or some kind of 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.600 noticeable progress or or you know, or regress, you know, 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.920 something some kind of change in the world that is notable. 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:31.639 But but I don't think Hony really notices any um 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.600 change to the scenario of the world. There's nothing to 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:38.320 be amazed at. Instead, it's just that the unnoticed passage 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.639 of time is loss and life without your friends and 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.840 family is not worth living. Yeah, it's it's a nice's 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:48.320 a nice message. Um. Yeah, But but it's interesting too, 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.240 Like you said that the world hasn't really changed. There's 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:55.399 no indication that technology has changed. Um, And I guess 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.399 for a lot of people throughout history that probably seemed 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.919 to be the case. I mean that the basic technology 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.280 you're using and your understanding of the world has not changed. 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:07.359 This is just the way things are. These are the 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.399 tools we have. The things that will change, and you 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:14.119 know that they'll change, will be um. You know the 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.960 lifespans of of of human activity. You know that that 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.000 people will will live and die and be born and 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.439 grow old, and then also you know that uh uh, 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.800 there's a good chance that as as people live and die, 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.000 so will kings, so will rulers, and so there will 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.200 be the you know, the app and flow of dynasties 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:39.439 as as well as wars and so forth. Right, Another 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:42.440 interesting thing I thought about this is that Hony gets 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:46.240 to see his own posthumous reputation as a scholar, which 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:48.879 apparently is going very strong. Like he goes and finds 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.760 in the study hall that people really appreciate the teachings 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:55.879 of him, of Hony the Circle Maker, but he can't 0:18:55.920 --> 0:19:00.280 really enjoy that that positive reputation now because people don't 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.680 believe he's really that guy that they respect. In principle, 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:08.240 that raises an interesting question about what we value and reputation. 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.919 Like most people want to be I want to have 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.840 a good reputation, want people to like them. But would 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.240 it be would you be happy to have a good 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:20.760 reputation if people didn't recognize you as yourself, if they 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:23.560 didn't connect you in your current body to the bearer 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.480 of that reputation. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty pretty interesting. I mean, 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:32.040 it's it makes you think about like legendary people and indeed, 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:34.080 what if you had time travel scenarios where they got 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:35.920 to travel into the future and they're like, oh, yeah, 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.040 I'm famous. But also that that image of me has 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.840 grown so and is and it is so revered that 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.520 you know, me just standing here, they're not even gonna 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.040 identify me with that person right well, So anyway, I 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.040 think this story would not be as old as the 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:56.159 time dilation story in the Mahabar Toa, But otherwise I 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.480 think this may be the oldest time travel story that 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:01.800 that I been able to come across, And it's definitely 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:12.080 the oldest sleeping into the future story that I found. Now, 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:15.760 this wouldn't know this wouldn't be older, but I didn't. 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:20.199 I did run across some some interesting additional time weirdness 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:24.800 stories here, um uh. In between the publication of part 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.080 one in this series and the recording of Part two, 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:29.960 a listener by the name of Ahmed wrote in. Ahmed 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.359 has written in before with some interesting content, but this 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.199 time Amed wrote into share a couple of time travel 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:41.199 tales related to Islamic tradition. One of them and he 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.639 ends up mentioning the Seven Sleepers. Again, we had not 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.239 actually recorded this episode yet, so he did not know 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.520 that seven seven sleepers were coming, but he also shared 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:51.600 the following us. So I'm going to read from Ahmed's 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:56.879 email quote. According to Muslim tradition, Mohammed ascends to Heaven 0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:59.639 from Mecca on the back of a winged mount with 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.720 the angel Gabriel as his guide. There, he individually meets 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:06.800 with the prophets who came before him, ending with Moses 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.240 and Abraham. Finally, he has an audience with God, who 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:14.320 tells him to instruct Muslims to pray fifty times per day. 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:17.600 After some back and forth, at the urging of Moses, 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:21.320 who says that fifty is far too onerous, Muhammed leaves 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:25.440 with the current five day prayers for Buslims. Notably, many 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:29.200 Muslims sources say that when Mohammed returns from this journey, 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:33.280 his door is still swinging back and forth, suggesting either 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:37.680 a complete stoppage of time or at least a considerable dilation. 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.760 That is very interesting and plays once again on the 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:45.320 idea that that time passes differently in the heavens or 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:47.720 in the realm of God or the Gods than it 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:50.960 does here on earth. That maybe you know that you know, 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:53.480 I guess it's similar to the idea that a day 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:55.600 is as a thousand years and a thousand years as 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:59.280 a day. Yeah. So there's something about the story that 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:01.320 was like, Okay, this this sounds familiar. I think I've 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.359 I've read this before, or I've I've heard something like 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:06.600 this before. So I looked into it a little bit 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:09.840 and then I realized, oh, yes, there is a there's 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.920 a wonderful creature involved in some of these tellings. Um 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:18.280 and and again um um ahm Ed mentioned that there's 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:21.600 a winged mount uh that that the prophet rides on, 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:27.280 and this creature is sometimes described as alba rock um, 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:31.679 which means the shining or resplendent one um. Those were 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:36.359 those translations were were provided by Jorge Luis Borges in 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:40.280 his book Imaginary Beings and Carol Rose the Folklore's also 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:44.240 provides the translation the lightning. So it's kind of a 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:48.080 winged centaur in many artist depictions. You can look up 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:51.439 images of of this. It's you know, sometimes spelled bu 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.920 r a q or b o r a k in English, 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:58.760 and Rose ads that it is. It's generally described as 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:02.040 being pure white. Uh. Sometimes it's covered with jewels and 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:05.639 precious stones that might be of varying colors, its breath 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:09.200 is perfume, and it can understand human speech, but sources 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:12.560 on are split on whether the creature can actually talk 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:16.359 itself where they can just understand. Um. But I wanted 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:19.800 to read just a bit from Borges his book here. Uh, 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:24.920 he shares a bit about about al baraq. Quote. One 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:28.680 Islamic Haadif tells us that his barak flew upward from 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.520 the earth. It kicked over a jar filled with water. 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:34.560 The prophet was taken up to the seventh Heaven, where 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:37.159 he spoke with each of the patriarchs and angels that 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:40.480 reside there, crossed the oneness, and felt a chill that 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:43.119 froze his heart when the hand of God patted him 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:45.840 on the shoulder. The time of men is not the 0:23:45.880 --> 0:23:49.040 time of God. When he returned to earth, the prophet 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:52.120 caught the jar before a single drop of water had 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:55.960 spilled out of it. Wow. That Yeah, that's time dilation again. 0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:58.720 That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, the door is still swinging back 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:00.800 and forth. The jar of water that was dropped as 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:04.320 not yet hit the ground. Uh so so yeah, I 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:06.199 love this account and I love that we have this 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:10.320 wonderful uh fantastic beast here. Um. By the way, if 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:13.000 you pick up a copy of the Book of Imaginary Beings, 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:16.239 the version that's in print right now with illustrations by 0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:19.320 Peter Siss, al Baraque is on the cover, or a 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:21.439 depiction of al Baraque is on the cover. But but 0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:24.840 also look up some of the various art art artistic 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:26.879 ways that this creature has been brought to life in 0:24:26.920 --> 0:24:31.520 different Islamic cultures. Because it's pretty fabulous. Yeah, this illustration 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:33.720 is great because it is it's almost like a mix 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:38.800 between a pegasus and a megalithic sculpture. Yeah. Now, another 0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:42.680 possible example of time travel and old texts, um can 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.280 be found in the sixteenth century Ming Dynasty text from 0:24:46.359 --> 0:24:50.920 China Journey into the West. Um. And I actually had 0:24:50.960 --> 0:24:54.480 not thought to look here until you mentioned it to Joe, 0:24:54.520 --> 0:24:57.520 and so I ended up, uh checking it out. See 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:01.000 what exactly the Monkey King was up to that relates 0:25:01.000 --> 0:25:03.800 to time travel. Oh okay, So I think I came 0:25:03.840 --> 0:25:06.919 across a mention of time travel in the supplement to 0:25:06.960 --> 0:25:09.200 the Journey to the West. But there, but there's time 0:25:09.200 --> 0:25:12.760 travel in the original as well. Um. Yes, both to 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:15.760 a certain extent. So um. So if if you're Wondering 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:20.320 Journey into into the West Chinese classic. Uh. This is 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:23.520 a classic work and has been adapted many times in 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:26.720 many different forms. Uh and and it generally concerns the 0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:30.400 exploits of the Monkey King or Soon Willkong, the Great 0:25:30.440 --> 0:25:35.360 Sage equal to Heaven. Um. So there's uh and that's 0:25:35.560 --> 0:25:37.560 so that's the main work. But yes, there's also this 0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:41.520 supplemental work, supplement to the Journey to the West. And 0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:46.000 in both cases the episodes concerned the time warping experience 0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:49.560 of dream so in the In the original there's basically 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:53.080 just a section where years of training for Monkey are 0:25:53.160 --> 0:25:56.960 compressed by a time trance. But yeah, when you get 0:25:57.000 --> 0:26:01.080 into the supplement that's where things get really interesting. This 0:26:01.200 --> 0:26:03.960 second work is also known as the Tower of Myriad 0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:07.360 Mirrors in it, which I think Borges would would would 0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:11.120 surely have loved that title. Uh. And it takes this 0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:15.160 fantastic travelog style of the original and gives us even 0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:18.520 more time weirdness. I was reading about this in an 0:26:18.600 --> 0:26:21.439 article by Dr I ching Wang of the University of 0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:25.800 Liverpool titled Tower of Myriad Mirrors, and so I want 0:26:25.840 --> 0:26:28.760 to read just a quote from this quote in the 0:26:28.840 --> 0:26:33.919 narrative Upon leaving the Flaming Mountain, the monkey uh I e. 0:26:34.240 --> 0:26:36.720 Monkey King or Sugu and Kong is trapped in a 0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:41.800 hallucinatory world of mirrors evoked by ching fish, a monster 0:26:42.320 --> 0:26:46.680 epitomizing desire, and a negative force proportionate to the monkeys 0:26:46.720 --> 0:26:51.119 innate morality, though a tower of myriad of mirrors is 0:26:51.160 --> 0:26:54.679 in disparate identities. The monkey embarks on an array of 0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:59.360 adventures to various time points, ranging from the immemorial Chin 0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:02.600 to twenty one through two oh six BC dynasty to 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:07.960 the Song through twelve seventy dynasty that is preceded by 0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:11.800 the story setting i e. The Tang dynasty six eighteen 0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:16.000 through d Upon returning to his own era, the monkey 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:20.040 discovers that his master, the Priest, defies the abstinence from 0:27:20.040 --> 0:27:23.160 sex and becomes a general, and the monkey is entangled 0:27:23.160 --> 0:27:27.160 in a gargantuan war, during which he encounters his own offspring. 0:27:27.720 --> 0:27:30.119 In the end, the monkey is awakened by the original 0:27:30.160 --> 0:27:33.840 time traveler and kills the ching fish as the embodiment 0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:38.320 of desire that entraps his altruism, thereby eliminating the negative 0:27:38.359 --> 0:27:43.520 traits from his psyche or self. Okay, so if this 0:27:43.600 --> 0:27:46.520 counts as a type of time travel. You might say 0:27:46.560 --> 0:27:49.280 that it is time travel as a weapon, like a 0:27:49.320 --> 0:27:54.119 weapon of distraction against the hero of the of this story. Yeah. Yeah, 0:27:54.200 --> 0:27:56.480 and I guess in this, I mean, in this it 0:27:56.520 --> 0:27:59.679 reminds me a lot of of the time travel that 0:27:59.720 --> 0:28:02.960 we in a Christmas Carol, right, because it's all within 0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:07.399 a dream essentially, it's all within the nighttime headspace of 0:28:07.400 --> 0:28:10.439 a character. Uh. Though in the case of the Christmas Carol, 0:28:10.960 --> 0:28:13.800 it is um it is being pulled off by a 0:28:13.840 --> 0:28:18.120 ghost in order to try and save that individual from damnation, 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:21.400 and uh and in this case it is being orchestrated 0:28:21.400 --> 0:28:25.040 by a demon in an attempt to u to distract 0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:29.159 and corrupt our our hero. But so, because this novel, 0:28:29.280 --> 0:28:33.119 the the Supplement to the Journey to the West is 0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:36.760 written in the future about a previous era, it can 0:28:36.920 --> 0:28:41.120 have its protagonist at least in this hallucinatory distraction thing 0:28:41.480 --> 0:28:43.800 going through the air, looking through these mirrors, are going 0:28:43.800 --> 0:28:47.240 through these mirrors and journeying two times into the past 0:28:47.360 --> 0:28:50.800 and future from where he began. Yeah, it sounds pretty 0:28:51.000 --> 0:28:53.360 pretty interesting. Um again, I have I haven't I haven't 0:28:53.360 --> 0:28:55.720 read I have not read this work. But I was 0:28:55.800 --> 0:28:59.160 running across some other papers that we're talking about UM 0:28:59.400 --> 0:29:02.120 time travel potentially being used in some of the Monkey 0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:04.520 King films that have come out, and there have been many. Again, 0:29:04.600 --> 0:29:07.800 there have been many Monkey King films and TV shows 0:29:08.160 --> 0:29:10.320 UH and the adaptations of Journey into the West. So 0:29:10.600 --> 0:29:12.560 if anyone out there is has seen a bunch of them, 0:29:12.600 --> 0:29:15.440 I think I've seen one or two. I don't remember 0:29:15.440 --> 0:29:18.760 there being any time travel narratives, but it stands to 0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:21.520 reason that time travel pops up in some of those adaptations. 0:29:21.520 --> 0:29:24.360 So if you've seen one, that's pretty cool, let us know. 0:29:24.440 --> 0:29:26.880 I'd love to know about it. Well, I'd at least 0:29:26.880 --> 0:29:29.920 say that this is also notable for being UM, even 0:29:29.960 --> 0:29:32.440 though you could say that there's some big caveats on 0:29:32.480 --> 0:29:35.080 it because it's like a hallucinatory kind of thing. But 0:29:35.360 --> 0:29:37.680 to the extent that you would consider this time travel, 0:29:37.680 --> 0:29:39.720 it is one of the earliest examples I can think 0:29:39.720 --> 0:29:42.880 of we've looked at that involves traveling backward, because all 0:29:42.920 --> 0:29:45.320 of the others we've looked at so far, the time 0:29:45.360 --> 0:29:48.120 dilation or the sleeping into the future, tend to just 0:29:48.280 --> 0:29:52.640 involve traveling forward relative to the normal UH rate at 0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:55.760 which time would pass or at which you would age. Yeah, 0:29:55.880 --> 0:29:59.320 and it's um it's interesting to sort of try and 0:29:59.320 --> 0:30:02.000 and and figure out like why that is the case. 0:30:02.040 --> 0:30:04.120 And the best I can come up with is that 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:07.600 is probably what the author is um is touching on here, 0:30:08.360 --> 0:30:12.200 the dynastic progression. Uh, the idea that like that that 0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:17.360 history is important enough that you would want to comment 0:30:17.480 --> 0:30:23.120 on it through through time travel. Um. Um so, yeah, 0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:24.760 I don't know that. I'm sure there's more to the 0:30:24.800 --> 0:30:28.200 story there, but but at any rate, Uh, here's here's 0:30:28.200 --> 0:30:31.040 the Monkey King popping up as a one of our 0:30:31.120 --> 0:30:36.760 our many older time travelers. Maybe not time Traveler zero, 0:30:36.880 --> 0:30:39.240 but if it's still notable. You know, while we're on 0:30:39.280 --> 0:30:44.160 the subject of um Chinese conceptualization of time, this reminds 0:30:44.200 --> 0:30:46.640 me of an interesting email that we got, So maybe 0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:48.920 we can we'll do a couple of listener mails within 0:30:48.960 --> 0:30:51.240 this episode itself, which is actually I think very cool 0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:54.320 that the time gap in between part one and two 0:30:54.360 --> 0:30:57.640 has allowed us to incorporate some listener feedback into part 0:30:57.640 --> 0:31:00.560 two itself here. But um so, so this is a 0:31:00.600 --> 0:31:04.080 message we got from Bjorn. So this is responding to 0:31:04.120 --> 0:31:07.280 the part of part one of this series where we 0:31:07.360 --> 0:31:11.200 talked about visualizing time as a type of space, which 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:14.640 appears to be extremely common, maybe even universal, or if not, 0:31:14.760 --> 0:31:18.440 it's nearly universal across languages on Earth. Uh. That that 0:31:18.520 --> 0:31:21.160 we talk about time as if it were a type 0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:23.400 of space, or a dimension of space, or a sort 0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:27.000 of range within space. And uh. And then Rob, you 0:31:27.000 --> 0:31:30.520 and I ended up talking about how how common it 0:31:30.600 --> 0:31:34.120 is to discuss the future as if it is physically 0:31:34.200 --> 0:31:36.480 in the space in front of us, in the past 0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:39.880 as if it's physically in the space behind us. Uh. 0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:43.560 This also appears to be pretty common cross culturally, but 0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:46.960 apparently this is not universal. And this is really interesting. 0:31:47.000 --> 0:31:50.880 So Biorn was passing along some comment from his girlfriend 0:31:50.920 --> 0:31:55.080 who is from Hong Kong, and she apparently says, quote, 0:31:55.080 --> 0:31:57.000 when you think of the future, you see it as 0:31:57.040 --> 0:31:59.520 something in front of you, something you are moving towards. 0:31:59.840 --> 0:32:01.720 The past, on the other hand, is something you have 0:32:01.880 --> 0:32:06.720 left behind. In Cantonese. In the Cantonese language, the concepts 0:32:06.760 --> 0:32:09.920 are reversed. The past is in front of you because 0:32:09.960 --> 0:32:13.360 these are things which happened and you can now see clearly. 0:32:13.800 --> 0:32:16.320 The future, on the other hand, is behind your back. 0:32:16.800 --> 0:32:19.840 You can sense it but not perceive it with any clarity. 0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:23.680 So I thought that was really interesting. I don't know 0:32:23.880 --> 0:32:26.560 if I don't know how common or if that's near 0:32:26.560 --> 0:32:29.680 a universal for Cantonese speakers, but I would be interested 0:32:29.760 --> 0:32:33.120 to hear more about that, uh and that that makes 0:32:33.160 --> 0:32:35.360 its own logical sense in a way, so you would 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:39.240 still be conceptualizing time as a type of space, but 0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:42.560 just flipping the polls with respect to your body. But 0:32:42.560 --> 0:32:44.720 but certainly, I mean, we were talking about metaphors in 0:32:44.760 --> 0:32:47.080 the first episode. You know, it's like the way we 0:32:47.120 --> 0:32:50.200 talk about time and in the way we think about 0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:52.600 time like these these are the things that end up 0:32:53.000 --> 0:32:56.240 affecting the way we construct our time travel narratives. Well, 0:32:56.240 --> 0:32:58.160 it makes me wonder like if this is it, if 0:32:58.160 --> 0:33:00.600 this is actually more common or there are there are 0:33:00.640 --> 0:33:03.720 at least some languages in which it's more common to 0:33:04.160 --> 0:33:08.240 uh to build metaphors where the space behind you is 0:33:08.280 --> 0:33:09.920 the future, in the space in front of you is 0:33:09.960 --> 0:33:12.560 the past. With that effect, how people who speak those 0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:16.960 languages design uh time machines and science fictions? Are they 0:33:17.080 --> 0:33:20.719 less likely to be sort of forward facing vehicles like 0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:23.400 you you often see in you know, the DeLorean and 0:33:23.440 --> 0:33:27.080 stuff like that. Yeah, that's interesting now, you know, thinking 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:29.320 back to you, especially talking I was talking about this, 0:33:29.360 --> 0:33:32.480 but also talking about not dreaming and sleeping. Um. For 0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:35.320 the most part, we're talking about baseline human experience here 0:33:35.360 --> 0:33:40.040 kind of extrapolated into into the fantastic um. But obviously 0:33:40.160 --> 0:33:44.040 if you've add various other conditions and substances into the mix, uh, 0:33:44.160 --> 0:33:47.000 time can seem even weirder. I know there's at least 0:33:47.000 --> 0:33:52.160 one time travel story that Nayan mentions, uh, some early 0:33:52.440 --> 0:33:55.280 work of literature in which somebody's hit on the head. Oh, no, 0:33:55.360 --> 0:33:56.800 I know what it is. It was, of course, Mark 0:33:56.840 --> 0:34:00.400 Twain's can Can Confederate Yankee and King Arthur's Court. I 0:34:00.400 --> 0:34:03.600 believe the time travel What did I say, Confederate Yankee 0:34:03.840 --> 0:34:08.000 Confederate Yankee? Well, yes, um, Connecticut Yankee. Rather uh in 0:34:08.000 --> 0:34:10.839 In uh in in King or this court. Uh that 0:34:10.880 --> 0:34:12.759 book which I think I read a long time ago. 0:34:12.800 --> 0:34:15.600 I've forgotten all of it, but but I believe time 0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:19.080 travel is achieved by that character being hit on the 0:34:19.080 --> 0:34:21.040 back of the head with something. I think he is 0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:24.480 the foreman in a factory and one of his workers 0:34:24.480 --> 0:34:27.319 wax him on the head with a wrench. I think 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:32.759 that's right. And then travels back in time. So but 0:34:32.840 --> 0:34:34.840 it is a reminder that, yes, when you start talking 0:34:34.840 --> 0:34:40.440 about altered um, altered experiences of the brain, that adds 0:34:40.440 --> 0:34:43.800 a different dimension to your contemplations of time travel um. 0:34:43.880 --> 0:34:45.480 And you know this is the case too when you 0:34:45.520 --> 0:34:48.560 start throwing in various substances. You know, we did a 0:34:48.600 --> 0:34:52.200 whole series on psychedelics a couple of years back, and 0:34:52.239 --> 0:34:54.960 one of the commonly sided effects there is the altered 0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:57.960 perception of time. And you know we see this in 0:34:58.040 --> 0:35:00.400 literature as well as far back as like Thomas de 0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:05.960 Quincy's Two Confessions of an English opiameter. Oh yeah, Now 0:35:06.080 --> 0:35:07.759 Nayan doesn't spend a lot of time with this. He 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:10.799 points out the quote smoking marijuana or taking amphetamines and 0:35:10.960 --> 0:35:14.440 or LSD to achieve a non linear hallucinogenic experience of 0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:17.720 time travel. Uh. He says that's sometimes used by writers 0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:20.520 as a way of exploring the concept of time travel, 0:35:20.680 --> 0:35:23.600 but it's not something that he set out to explore 0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:26.960 extensively in the book. So I was thinking, well, who 0:35:27.080 --> 0:35:31.400 who might have talked about psychedelics and time travel? I 0:35:31.440 --> 0:35:33.120 was like, Oh, I wonder what Terence McKenna had to 0:35:33.120 --> 0:35:35.520 say about this. So I started looking around for Terence 0:35:35.600 --> 0:35:38.799 McKenna talking about time travel. And the weird thing was 0:35:38.920 --> 0:35:42.239 is I ran across an interview with McKenna from Night 0:35:42.480 --> 0:35:45.880 nine in which he mentions that he is currently reading 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:49.880 Nayan's book on time travel. Oh that's weird. I thought 0:35:49.920 --> 0:35:52.000 for some reason, I thought that that Naan book came 0:35:52.000 --> 0:35:54.200 out in like two thousand one. Well, there have been 0:35:54.200 --> 0:35:58.720 different editions of it. Oh okay, yeah, let me see okay, 0:35:58.719 --> 0:36:03.680 first published Okay, okay, okay, okay, so it is possible. Good, 0:36:04.360 --> 0:36:08.279 Maybe the interview is from nine right right, yes, and 0:36:08.400 --> 0:36:11.000 the book would have first come out. Sorry for all 0:36:11.000 --> 0:36:15.120 the unnecessary time traveling, uh listeners, but at any rate, 0:36:15.440 --> 0:36:18.560 uh they the short too late for the short version 0:36:18.640 --> 0:36:21.040 on this. But basically I found it amusing that that 0:36:21.400 --> 0:36:24.040 McKenna was talking about the very book that I had 0:36:24.040 --> 0:36:28.560 been reading for this episode. Um and uh, I don't know. 0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:31.600 Mckinnay didn't have a lot ex extra to add, but 0:36:31.640 --> 0:36:33.480 he did talk a little bit about time travel and 0:36:33.560 --> 0:36:35.840 some of his talks, mentioning that he liked the idea 0:36:35.920 --> 0:36:37.840 that you can only travel back as far as the 0:36:37.840 --> 0:36:41.560 time machine exists, so you can only go back as 0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:44.760 far as like day one of the time machine existing 0:36:44.800 --> 0:36:48.000 as a time machine. Um and you know, intend to 0:36:48.040 --> 0:36:50.360 explore it as kind of a fantasy scenario. But he 0:36:50.400 --> 0:36:52.840 also lays out a scenario in which time travel is 0:36:52.880 --> 0:36:57.239 more hyper spatial rather than linear. And uh and n asked, like, 0:36:57.239 --> 0:36:59.520 what have you pushed the button on your time machine 0:36:59.760 --> 0:37:03.320 and simply made all future events seem to occur at once? 0:37:04.000 --> 0:37:05.920 Uh so the time machine would be more like a 0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:09.560 doorway to eternity rather than a gateway into the future. 0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:13.200 Oh so, rather than actually transporting you, it just like 0:37:13.360 --> 0:37:18.239 breaks the person inside's perception of time. Yeah, in a way. 0:37:18.280 --> 0:37:22.239 You know this this reminds me of the movie uh 0:37:22.320 --> 0:37:24.919 Jack Frost that we just recently talked about for Weird 0:37:24.960 --> 0:37:28.360 howth Cinema um in in that there's that you know, 0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:31.920 that wonderful scene where she uh, where Nastinka begs uh 0:37:32.280 --> 0:37:35.839 ruby ruby finger down to reverse itself like gets the 0:37:35.880 --> 0:37:39.640 sun to to go back down over the horizon so 0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:41.839 that she has a little more time to finish her 0:37:41.920 --> 0:37:45.080 chore by dawn. And uh and there's a lot there's 0:37:45.120 --> 0:37:46.560 a lot of fun to be made on mystery science 0:37:46.600 --> 0:37:48.319 theater riffing on that about Oh, well, you know this 0:37:48.360 --> 0:37:51.239 is going to bring about tidal waves and global destruction, 0:37:51.680 --> 0:37:55.040 to have the Sun suddenly stop uh and reverse itself, 0:37:55.120 --> 0:37:57.799 or the planet you know, reverse itself, whichever, uh you know, 0:37:57.880 --> 0:38:00.320 to just to totally screw up the celestial mc annex 0:38:00.360 --> 0:38:03.200 of everything um in a way you could you could say, well, 0:38:03.400 --> 0:38:05.240 maybe it would be the same thing with the time machine. 0:38:05.440 --> 0:38:08.960 Say you did somehow create a machine that allowed you 0:38:09.000 --> 0:38:12.640 to travel in time, that allows you to uh to 0:38:12.760 --> 0:38:16.000 move around like this, Well, what if it just wrecked everything? 0:38:16.080 --> 0:38:18.680 What if it just or if it didn't wreck everything, 0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:23.160 you just like permanently screwed up your human perception of time. Well, 0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:25.680 this is the idea that uh, that we talked about 0:38:25.680 --> 0:38:28.279 with Daniel Whiteson where he was saying, you know, if 0:38:28.320 --> 0:38:31.600 you were really trying to think about a machine that 0:38:31.600 --> 0:38:33.719 would allow you to travel into the past and try 0:38:33.760 --> 0:38:36.120 to make it work, he says, it would make more 0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:40.239 sense the machine reverses the flow of time for the 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:43.880 entire universe around you than that it does anything for you. 0:38:44.360 --> 0:38:46.840 And so time continues to pass normally for you, but 0:38:46.960 --> 0:38:50.319 somehow it it makes time go backwards for the for 0:38:50.440 --> 0:38:55.600 the entire rest of the world. Now, in the book 0:38:55.840 --> 0:38:58.400 Nan goes into greater detail with lots of examples that 0:38:58.440 --> 0:39:01.600 are definitely worth looking for for fans of old school 0:39:01.640 --> 0:39:04.600 time traveler yarns. But I think it's safe to say 0:39:04.600 --> 0:39:06.640 that you know they're there are older ideas and perhaps 0:39:07.400 --> 0:39:11.720 ancient ideas, you know, understanding that time passes in weird ways, 0:39:12.040 --> 0:39:15.040 and that there's something particularly human about reflecting on the past, 0:39:15.560 --> 0:39:18.759 worrying about the future, and engaging in patterns of thought 0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:21.760 and systems of behavior that can connect us to different 0:39:21.760 --> 0:39:24.759 times and even deliver us to different times. Certainly in 0:39:24.800 --> 0:39:28.919 the When We When We Sleep into the Future now, 0:39:29.040 --> 0:39:32.960 um Nan writes a little bit about time machines, of course, 0:39:33.160 --> 0:39:35.720 and uh he says, the machines entered the scenario because 0:39:35.719 --> 0:39:39.360 they represent reason and of course science, and they indicate 0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:41.680 the belief that there may be some sort of way 0:39:41.680 --> 0:39:45.480 to make possible what it is to varying degrees thought possible, 0:39:45.560 --> 0:39:49.319 at least under certain circumstances. Um particularly if you're talking 0:39:49.360 --> 0:39:52.840 about time travel into the future. Yeah, this is interesting, 0:39:52.880 --> 0:39:55.920 and this brings me back to um some thoughts that 0:39:56.280 --> 0:39:58.560 that I was reading and listen to an a lecture 0:39:58.680 --> 0:40:01.000 by a scholar that I'm in and in the previous 0:40:01.080 --> 0:40:06.279 part who is a professor of science fiction studies at 0:40:06.600 --> 0:40:10.479 Georgia Tech named Lisa Yazik, And you know, she draws 0:40:10.520 --> 0:40:16.880 some connections between specific developments in technology and not just technology, 0:40:16.920 --> 0:40:22.319 technology and transportation infrastructure. In the late nineteenth century, that 0:40:22.440 --> 0:40:25.320 sort of pushed forward the idea that you could create 0:40:25.760 --> 0:40:28.920 a time machine. Now, of course we know that H. G. 0:40:29.040 --> 0:40:33.279 Wells The Time Machine published in eighteen This was a 0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:37.120 hugely influential work of science fiction that I think would 0:40:37.120 --> 0:40:39.800 inspire a lot of the time travel stories that came afterward. 0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:42.400 But it was by no means the first story about 0:40:42.400 --> 0:40:45.919 time travel. But one thing you can say is that 0:40:46.360 --> 0:40:51.080 almost all of the time travel stories before Wells, we're 0:40:51.120 --> 0:40:54.600 not really science fiction, and that the time travel mechanic 0:40:54.680 --> 0:40:59.960 was almost always a sort of inexplicable, uh, fantasy thing, 0:41:00.040 --> 0:41:02.319 and it was like the action of a god or 0:41:02.360 --> 0:41:05.960 an angel or some kind of supernatural imposition, or it 0:41:06.080 --> 0:41:08.640 was some type of time dilation by going to different 0:41:08.640 --> 0:41:11.799 planes of existence or something. But but with Wells, you 0:41:11.840 --> 0:41:18.359 get a time machine, a vehicle that is created by science. Now, 0:41:18.400 --> 0:41:21.239 I think it's not even the very first example of 0:41:21.239 --> 0:41:23.000 that that I want to mention. Another example I came 0:41:23.040 --> 0:41:25.360 across that that I think is very funny and it 0:41:25.520 --> 0:41:27.920 will be fun to read a little bit from. But 0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:30.600 I was just watching a lecture by Yazik where she 0:41:30.600 --> 0:41:33.200 she mentions a couple of things. One is that before 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:36.400 you get to the time machine, um a number of 0:41:36.440 --> 0:41:39.960 the time travel stories from the nineteenth century that involved 0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:43.520 traveling through time based on some kind of device used 0:41:43.560 --> 0:41:48.200 not vehicles but clocks. And a classic example here is 0:41:48.239 --> 0:41:51.080 a story called the Clock that Went Backward by Edward 0:41:51.120 --> 0:41:54.640 Page Mitchell that was published in eighteen eighty one. And 0:41:54.719 --> 0:41:57.880 this is about this is also kind of a fantasy story. 0:41:57.920 --> 0:42:00.000 I mean, it's not like a clock that was designed 0:42:00.080 --> 0:42:02.439 to do this by and a scientist, inventor or something 0:42:02.480 --> 0:42:04.879 who wanted to travel through time. It's just like there's 0:42:04.880 --> 0:42:07.160 a weird clock and when you wind it up, people 0:42:07.200 --> 0:42:11.440 nearby can get sent back in time. But the thing 0:42:11.480 --> 0:42:13.960 that I thought was interesting was that he Asik mentioned, 0:42:14.040 --> 0:42:18.160 you know, these stories about technological time travel arising in 0:42:18.239 --> 0:42:23.960 an age of standardization of time measures h for for 0:42:24.040 --> 0:42:29.239 industry and politics. So in this era of industrialization, coordination 0:42:29.280 --> 0:42:33.200 of rapid transport through train stations and shipping ports in 0:42:33.200 --> 0:42:38.800 in the late nineteenth century. Um, something happens in people's 0:42:38.840 --> 0:42:42.920 consciousness that makes them think about time differently, and this 0:42:43.000 --> 0:42:46.440 maybe helps give rise to the proliferation of time travel 0:42:46.520 --> 0:42:55.880 stories that would follow than now. I was also reading 0:42:56.080 --> 0:43:01.600 a short introduction that that Laci Azik wrote to a 0:43:01.640 --> 0:43:04.680 recent new edition of The Time Machine by H. G. Wells. 0:43:04.719 --> 0:43:08.680 It was the dred And twenty fifth anniversary edition, So yeah, 0:43:08.880 --> 0:43:10.320 I guess that would have been last year, right, and 0:43:10.360 --> 0:43:14.520 published in eighteen came out in Karence McKenna read it 0:43:14.600 --> 0:43:18.880 in Yeah exactly, Okay, you come more of an inside 0:43:18.920 --> 0:43:24.080 joke for us, okay, uh. But so she writes about 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:26.520 how so The Time Machine the novel was published in 0:43:26.560 --> 0:43:29.560 eighteen uh, and that was sort of the work that 0:43:29.760 --> 0:43:32.640 launched H. G. Wells literary career. He was born in 0:43:32.719 --> 0:43:35.400 eighteen sixty six, so I guess he was only like 0:43:35.440 --> 0:43:38.440 twenty nine at the time that it came out. Though. 0:43:38.719 --> 0:43:41.279 The Time Machine the Novel was actually based on a 0:43:41.360 --> 0:43:44.960 short story that Wells had written seven years before, called 0:43:45.040 --> 0:43:49.439 and I Love this the Chronic Argonauts. Have you read 0:43:49.480 --> 0:43:51.960 this one? Rob? I have not. I have not either, 0:43:52.040 --> 0:43:54.320 So it's it's sort of I think a shorter earlier 0:43:54.520 --> 0:43:57.799 version of the time Machine where the hero is not 0:43:57.920 --> 0:44:00.000 so much a hero, he's more of a mad science 0:44:00.040 --> 0:44:03.760 tist who gets into trouble by creating a time machine 0:44:03.760 --> 0:44:06.720 and unleashs havoc that goes on for thousands of years. 0:44:07.239 --> 0:44:10.960 But interesting fact I learned from from Yazak's intro here. 0:44:11.239 --> 0:44:15.680 Apparently Wells published this story in his college lipmag. So 0:44:15.760 --> 0:44:18.480 let this be an inspiration to you college lipmag editors 0:44:18.520 --> 0:44:21.480 out there. Yeah. Yeah, it could be the place where you, um, 0:44:21.680 --> 0:44:26.640 you published the garbage version of your future it um. 0:44:26.680 --> 0:44:30.120 But yeah. So in subsequent years, Wells revised and expanded 0:44:30.120 --> 0:44:32.799 the short story until it developed into the novel that 0:44:32.840 --> 0:44:36.279 we know today. Um and so. Wells apparently wrote in 0:44:36.400 --> 0:44:38.719 later years that he believed there was a rule for 0:44:38.800 --> 0:44:41.200 writing good science fiction. I'm not sure if I agree 0:44:41.239 --> 0:44:44.360 with this, but but it's interesting. So he says, to 0:44:44.480 --> 0:44:46.960 have good sci fi, you need to give the story 0:44:47.080 --> 0:44:52.160 only one fantastical element, and then make everything else as grounded, 0:44:52.320 --> 0:44:56.160 realistic and human as you possibly can. So how would 0:44:56.160 --> 0:44:59.120 that apply to the time Machine? Well An example is 0:44:59.160 --> 0:45:02.680 that in the original short story The Chronic Argonauts, Wells 0:45:02.719 --> 0:45:06.640 had the protagonists living in a Gothic mansion in the countryside. 0:45:06.719 --> 0:45:09.319 And so I think the implication here is that it 0:45:09.400 --> 0:45:13.719 would invite readers to think of other tropes of Gothic literature, 0:45:13.840 --> 0:45:17.840 the mysterious, the uncanny. I think the association I would 0:45:17.840 --> 0:45:20.359 have would be with like Charlotte Bronte and Jane Eyre. 0:45:21.520 --> 0:45:23.959 But in the Time Machine and the novel version, he 0:45:23.960 --> 0:45:27.840 he rewrote it to uh to locate the protagonist in 0:45:27.880 --> 0:45:31.960 a bourgeois neighborhood of London, basically as mundane an uninteresting 0:45:31.960 --> 0:45:34.200 as setting as he could think of. But you go 0:45:34.239 --> 0:45:37.799 into this mundane uh, you know, bourgeois household, and here's 0:45:37.840 --> 0:45:41.759 the time Machine. It's interesting how you don't think about 0:45:41.760 --> 0:45:44.120 the setting of the time Machine being mundane today because 0:45:44.120 --> 0:45:47.920 it is. It is now an historical work. So the 0:45:47.960 --> 0:45:51.560 idea that it's it's set uh in um in this 0:45:51.600 --> 0:45:54.520 neighborhood in London, like that's part of it's such as charm, 0:45:54.560 --> 0:45:57.920 it's appeal. Like essentially you have you have two different 0:45:57.920 --> 0:46:00.840 elements that are that are foreign to the to the reader, 0:46:01.120 --> 0:46:03.880 more than two. But the time Machine becomes a novelist 0:46:03.960 --> 0:46:06.960 full of a strange and wonderful places that are not 0:46:07.000 --> 0:46:10.600 our own reality. Right. I guess the idea today would 0:46:10.600 --> 0:46:13.000 be like, uh, what if you went into a house 0:46:13.320 --> 0:46:16.160 like a McMansion in the suburbs and in the subdivision 0:46:16.200 --> 0:46:19.520 here and here it is, here's the time machine. Now 0:46:19.560 --> 0:46:22.000 we've already mentioned that the time Machine is by no 0:46:22.120 --> 0:46:25.680 means the first story to depict time travel. Obviously, if 0:46:25.680 --> 0:46:28.680 you include time dilation and sleeping into the future, time 0:46:28.719 --> 0:46:31.279 travel stories can be found here and there, well into 0:46:31.320 --> 0:46:35.400 the ancient past, and even some stories of more direct 0:46:35.600 --> 0:46:39.160 time travel, such as being delivered documents from the future. 0:46:39.360 --> 0:46:42.160 I think that's something that happens in a story called 0:46:42.200 --> 0:46:45.520 Memoirs of the Twentieth Century written by Samuel Madden and 0:46:45.560 --> 0:46:47.640 published in the eighteenth century. I think this was like 0:46:47.719 --> 0:46:51.520 seventeen thirty three, and basically the story is an angel 0:46:51.640 --> 0:46:54.840 appears from the future and delivers some letters from future 0:46:54.880 --> 0:46:57.960 people to people living at the time. Yeah, from the 0:46:58.040 --> 0:47:02.759 years nine and nineteen. And then of course you get 0:47:02.800 --> 0:47:05.279 these nineteenth century examples we've been talking about, like the 0:47:05.280 --> 0:47:07.560 clock that went backwards and stuff that there are still 0:47:07.640 --> 0:47:10.719 and uh and Christmas Carol and kinnec Yankee and King 0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:15.200 Arthur's Court that are still basically fantasies, but Yeas, it 0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:17.680 makes the distinction that the Wells is really the first 0:47:17.680 --> 0:47:22.080 to popularize time travel as a convention of of realistically 0:47:22.200 --> 0:47:26.160 grounded science fiction, and to popularize the idea of the 0:47:26.200 --> 0:47:30.760 time machine as a piece of technology, specifically a vehicle 0:47:31.360 --> 0:47:34.760 that is deliberately designed to allow people to navigate time 0:47:34.840 --> 0:47:37.719 in the same way that people use regular vehicles to 0:47:37.840 --> 0:47:40.520 navigate space. And I think she says, you know, the 0:47:40.719 --> 0:47:43.279 obvious comparison if you look at this, uh, at its 0:47:43.320 --> 0:47:45.919 historical setting. This is in the eighteen nineties. This would 0:47:45.920 --> 0:47:49.600 have been when we're seeing bicycles and early automobiles, so 0:47:49.600 --> 0:47:53.759 so there's a lot of vehicular consciousness at the time. Yeah. 0:47:54.239 --> 0:47:57.799 But I was wondering, Okay, are there earlier examples of 0:47:57.840 --> 0:48:02.040 actual time machines like science fiction time machines. Well, it 0:48:02.040 --> 0:48:03.840 depends on what you count, Like do you count the 0:48:03.880 --> 0:48:06.520 clock that went backwards? Probably not really, that's just kind 0:48:06.520 --> 0:48:09.839 of a weird little fantasy object. Um. But I did 0:48:09.840 --> 0:48:13.440 find at least one thing that looks pretty much like 0:48:13.520 --> 0:48:18.080 a conventional time machine that does just barely pre date Wells, 0:48:18.520 --> 0:48:22.280 and this would be the nineteenth century Spanish author Enrique 0:48:22.400 --> 0:48:28.759 Gaspar's novel L Anacronopete, which was apparently published one year 0:48:28.840 --> 0:48:31.360 before Wells story The Chronic Argonauts, so this would have 0:48:31.400 --> 0:48:36.840 been in eighteen eighties seven. And this novel describes a 0:48:36.840 --> 0:48:40.560 an inventor who creates this device that I think is 0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:45.080 basically a giant sealed metal box that is equipped with 0:48:46.080 --> 0:48:50.800 huge pneumatic apparatus is that allow you to travel through time, 0:48:50.840 --> 0:48:54.799 including traveling backwards through time. And I haven't read this 0:48:54.920 --> 0:48:57.240 novel in full, but I was scanning through an English 0:48:57.280 --> 0:49:00.479 translation and I came across a part that I thought 0:49:00.520 --> 0:49:02.879 was so good that I wanted to share it here 0:49:02.880 --> 0:49:06.600 because it's it's where the inventor is explaining his theory 0:49:06.640 --> 0:49:12.240 of time via the example of sardines and canned peppers. Robert, 0:49:12.239 --> 0:49:15.399 are you ready for this? Okay? So the inventor says, 0:49:15.920 --> 0:49:19.719 it's common knowledge that to preserve sardines from nantes or 0:49:19.760 --> 0:49:23.640 peppers from calahora, we must remove the air from their 0:49:23.680 --> 0:49:30.040 tin cans. Wrong, we must remove the atmosphere, and consequently 0:49:30.480 --> 0:49:34.520 the time you see the air is no more than 0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:38.360 a compound of nitrogen and oxygen, whereas the atmosphere, in 0:49:38.400 --> 0:49:41.600 addition to consisting of eighty parts nitrogen to twenty parts. 0:49:41.640 --> 0:49:45.360 Oxygen also contains an amount of water, vapor and carbonic 0:49:45.400 --> 0:49:49.680 acid elements that are never left behind when forming a vacuum. 0:49:49.719 --> 0:49:52.720 But never mind the science, let's speak to common sense. 0:49:53.400 --> 0:49:55.960 Imagine the world is a tin of red peppers from 0:49:56.000 --> 0:49:59.799 which we have not extracted the atmosphere. What happens when 0:49:59.800 --> 0:50:03.560 the hand is sealed without this precaution, Time begins to 0:50:03.640 --> 0:50:07.000 exert its influence and carry out its work. First, a 0:50:07.040 --> 0:50:10.719 few molecules adhere to the sides of the container, agglomerating 0:50:10.760 --> 0:50:14.520 and solidifying, only to petrify with the passage of years 0:50:14.600 --> 0:50:17.319 and yield those substances in which we would find the 0:50:17.360 --> 0:50:20.880 mineral beginnings of primitive rock. We then note that the 0:50:20.920 --> 0:50:23.480 substance is covered with a kind of scum that is 0:50:23.520 --> 0:50:28.800 none other than rudimentary vegetation. And finally, microscopic organisms in 0:50:28.840 --> 0:50:32.200 the water vapor come to life, reproduce, and develop like 0:50:32.320 --> 0:50:35.360 maggots in our tin of preserves, enriching it with the 0:50:35.440 --> 0:50:39.160 unending variety of the animal kingdom. Can you still doubt 0:50:39.280 --> 0:50:43.719 that the atmosphere is time? This is one of those 0:50:43.719 --> 0:50:49.160 things that's like wrong, but genius, Yeah, like this is 0:50:49.239 --> 0:50:54.760 it's he really thought long and hard. Uh. And well 0:50:55.320 --> 0:51:01.160 on this, this this thoroughly uh incorrect mechanism for time. Well, 0:51:01.200 --> 0:51:03.680 I like that. It's it's sort of making the intuitive 0:51:03.680 --> 0:51:06.479 connection again between time and entropy, which we talked about 0:51:06.520 --> 0:51:09.480 in our interview with Daniel, because it's saying like, okay, 0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:14.279 so things in a can, they don't rot you, if 0:51:14.320 --> 0:51:16.840 you don't know any better, you might presume this because 0:51:16.920 --> 0:51:19.839 the time has been removed from the can and it 0:51:19.880 --> 0:51:22.839 takes time for things to rot. Well, you know, it's 0:51:22.880 --> 0:51:25.960 coming back to that idea of of time as a 0:51:25.960 --> 0:51:28.399 as a measure of change in the universe, and if 0:51:28.440 --> 0:51:30.560 in the can things are not changing, what does that 0:51:30.719 --> 0:51:34.400 say about about time? Uh? And in a way it 0:51:34.480 --> 0:51:36.960 kind of serves as a nice you know, it's it's 0:51:37.040 --> 0:51:39.320 ridiculous and it takes a second to really think about 0:51:39.360 --> 0:51:42.040 what it's even trying to say with with this atmosphere 0:51:42.160 --> 0:51:44.480 is time. But but in a way it kind of 0:51:44.520 --> 0:51:46.640 serves as an It kind of throws you off out 0:51:46.640 --> 0:51:49.600 of your your your back of the future line of thinking, 0:51:49.880 --> 0:51:53.120 where you think about time as this linear thing that 0:51:53.200 --> 0:51:57.960 you could conceivably move about in um. But but this 0:51:58.000 --> 0:52:00.239 is an entirely different model. So I had a hard 0:52:00.239 --> 0:52:03.840 time finding. Scrolling through the book trying to find details 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:07.640 on exactly how how the time travel itself works, like 0:52:07.680 --> 0:52:10.279 when you're going backward, I couldn't find that part, but 0:52:10.320 --> 0:52:12.560 at least according to the wiki summary, what it says 0:52:12.680 --> 0:52:16.880 is that the machine flies backward through the atmosphere against 0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:19.720 the rotation of the earth, and this is what allows 0:52:19.800 --> 0:52:22.359 time travel into the past. That would seem to fit 0:52:22.400 --> 0:52:25.279 with the other part about the atmosphere, but I'm not 0:52:25.360 --> 0:52:27.680 positive on this. So but maybe one day I will 0:52:27.719 --> 0:52:30.759 just read this book in full, because it looks like 0:52:30.920 --> 0:52:33.600 it might be kind of bad but pretty fun. Yeah, 0:52:33.640 --> 0:52:38.040 I mean that that concept is pretty uh, it's pretty crazy. 0:52:38.160 --> 0:52:41.480 I like it. Also, just while I'm on the subject 0:52:41.560 --> 0:52:45.239 of of an a macronopete, I gotta say that I 0:52:45.239 --> 0:52:47.040 skipped ahead to the end of the story to see 0:52:47.040 --> 0:52:51.200 what happens, and it apparently involves the inventor going mad 0:52:51.239 --> 0:52:53.920 and accelerating the time machine all the way back to 0:52:53.960 --> 0:52:58.200 the beginning of time. Oh wow, do you mind if 0:52:58.239 --> 0:53:00.000 I read this part too? Yeah? No, I want to 0:53:00.040 --> 0:53:01.239 know what he does there? What do you what do 0:53:01.280 --> 0:53:04.160 you do? Okay? So, uh, I guess he's arguing with 0:53:04.200 --> 0:53:07.759 the other passengers in the in the time machine, and 0:53:08.080 --> 0:53:12.200 he says, it's useless, continued the lunatic, laughing convulsively. Don't 0:53:12.239 --> 0:53:15.520 you see that our speed has increased fivefold? Nothing can 0:53:15.600 --> 0:53:18.840 stop us. I have destroyed the controls, and l n 0:53:18.920 --> 0:53:24.000 Acronopete runs headlong into the primordial white hot essence. And 0:53:24.000 --> 0:53:29.040 then people cry out horrors. Death awaits us in the chaos. Chaos. Look, 0:53:29.840 --> 0:53:33.000 and then it says, And indeed through the porthole glowed 0:53:33.040 --> 0:53:35.640 a dim light that marked the beginning of the natural 0:53:35.760 --> 0:53:40.240 world and the end of formless emptiness. But continuing backward, 0:53:40.560 --> 0:53:45.240 chaos gradually but persistently increased, and soon not even thick 0:53:45.400 --> 0:53:48.000 pork glass would be enough to hold back the flood 0:53:48.000 --> 0:53:52.080 of water, earth, and fire, all agitated in a suspension 0:53:52.120 --> 0:53:56.160 of air via periodic violent collisions that propelled the floating 0:53:56.239 --> 0:54:00.760 vehicle through that incandescent matter. The inalterabile at the procedure 0:54:00.840 --> 0:54:04.680 that they'd all undergone had lost its potency. Asphyxia was 0:54:04.719 --> 0:54:08.399 overtaking the travelers. The walls could no longer stop the heat, 0:54:08.640 --> 0:54:12.200 and finally the glass melted, letting forth a torrent of 0:54:12.280 --> 0:54:17.719 igneous substances. With the boom of a hundred volcanoes, and 0:54:17.719 --> 0:54:21.799 then there's like a like an eight line ellipsis, and 0:54:21.840 --> 0:54:25.480 then and then the inventor wakes up having fallen asleep 0:54:25.480 --> 0:54:28.560 at a play and it was a dream. And I'm 0:54:28.600 --> 0:54:31.360 not sure if I'm not sure if the entire novel 0:54:31.520 --> 0:54:33.600 was a dream, or if only part of it leading 0:54:33.640 --> 0:54:35.360 up to that end point was a dream. I don't know. 0:54:35.400 --> 0:54:37.160 I'll have to go in and read the whole thing someday. 0:54:37.440 --> 0:54:39.239 I mean, it's almost like there there used to be 0:54:39.280 --> 0:54:42.440 a law. That's sad. Look, you can explore the concept 0:54:42.480 --> 0:54:45.960 of time travel all you like, provided everything takes place 0:54:46.000 --> 0:54:48.200 within the space of a dream or vision. Why are 0:54:48.239 --> 0:54:50.520 they always doing the dream? I mean, why does it 0:54:50.600 --> 0:54:52.680 need to be a dream? Again? I guess it comes 0:54:52.719 --> 0:54:56.240 back to just the basic understanding that the dream dreams 0:54:56.320 --> 0:55:00.239 or where time is weird. Therefore that's where time ravel 0:55:00.280 --> 0:55:02.759 is going to happen. I mean, does the author think, Wow, 0:55:02.760 --> 0:55:04.440 if people get to the end of this book and 0:55:04.480 --> 0:55:06.560 I don't say it was all a dream, They're gonna 0:55:06.560 --> 0:55:09.120 think I'm nuts. So I've got to just say, well, 0:55:09.280 --> 0:55:12.320 that didn't actually happen. Or maybe they were thinking, look, 0:55:12.400 --> 0:55:15.800 they're gonna actually invent time travel in like ten fifteen 0:55:15.880 --> 0:55:21.319 years top, and I don't want my work to them date. 0:55:21.760 --> 0:55:24.040 But if it's all within the context of a dream, 0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:26.560 you can't say I got it wrong. That's good, that's 0:55:26.680 --> 0:55:29.560 very good. So let's see. We've looked at various concepts 0:55:29.560 --> 0:55:32.960 of time travel here, time travel by machine, time travel 0:55:33.040 --> 0:55:38.440 involving um manipulation of the atmosphere, time travel by magical beast, 0:55:38.960 --> 0:55:43.399 time travel by a drug, by head wound um. Oh man, 0:55:43.960 --> 0:55:46.600 there's so many ways to think about it. Time travel 0:55:46.640 --> 0:55:49.719 by cave, time travel by sleep. The cave is an 0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:52.399 interesting one too, because, of course the cave also makes 0:55:52.400 --> 0:55:56.279 one think of the tomb uh, time travel via via 0:55:56.400 --> 0:56:00.400 death and it um. Yeah, I guess it also reminds 0:56:00.400 --> 0:56:02.520 me of like all these various other stories of like 0:56:02.880 --> 0:56:06.560 characters of venturing into realms, beyond life for realms, even 0:56:06.600 --> 0:56:10.080 beyond death, venturing into the underworld or into you know, 0:56:10.400 --> 0:56:14.239 to purgatory or paradise. You know, they're all these fantastic 0:56:14.239 --> 0:56:20.000 stories about somebody traveling elsewhere, learning something and then eventually 0:56:20.960 --> 0:56:24.600 coming back or trying to come back anyway, and and ultimately, 0:56:24.680 --> 0:56:28.480 like time travel stories are of the same mold, right, 0:56:28.800 --> 0:56:32.480 It's about somebody traveling into the fantastic realm and then 0:56:32.520 --> 0:56:36.680 returning and that fantastic realm it might be hell, it 0:56:36.760 --> 0:56:40.160 might be um the nineteen fifties, you know, it might 0:56:40.200 --> 0:56:42.920 be uh, you know, seven years into the future. It 0:56:43.040 --> 0:56:45.440 might be all a dream, but let's hope it's not. 0:56:46.040 --> 0:56:49.560 But regarding the l en Acrono Pete, I do want 0:56:49.560 --> 0:56:51.480 to say, well, it looks like a great story. And 0:56:51.520 --> 0:56:55.600 while it does appear to predate Wells short story by 0:56:55.640 --> 0:56:57.759 one year, I think it's probably still fair to say 0:56:57.800 --> 0:57:01.160 that that Wells is probably the major popularizer of of 0:57:01.239 --> 0:57:05.840 the idea of the time machine as technology and science fiction. Yeah, 0:57:05.880 --> 0:57:08.359 Wells as Wells time machine is hard to be. Like 0:57:08.400 --> 0:57:10.400 we said before on the show, like it's it's a 0:57:10.400 --> 0:57:14.520 great book. It's still very readable, very enjoyable. All right, Well, 0:57:14.520 --> 0:57:16.600 we're gonna go ahead and close this episode out, but 0:57:16.640 --> 0:57:18.800 obviously we'd love to continue to hear from everyone out 0:57:18.800 --> 0:57:22.640 there insights you have about time travel stories and myths 0:57:22.680 --> 0:57:26.440 and legends, traditions, and of course books and movies. What 0:57:26.480 --> 0:57:29.800 are some of your favorites right in let us know, uh, 0:57:29.880 --> 0:57:33.360 you know, the smartest time travel or to time travel 0:57:33.400 --> 0:57:35.880 stories that are just a lot of fun, even if 0:57:35.920 --> 0:57:38.480 you you don't dare think about them too hard? Can 0:57:38.520 --> 0:57:42.760 you find earlier examples of of of intentionally created vehicles 0:57:42.760 --> 0:57:44.680 for time travel? I want to know, does it go 0:57:44.760 --> 0:57:50.280 back earlier than yeah, yeah, or other time traveling magical creatures? 0:57:50.360 --> 0:57:53.320 Obviously I want to hear about that. In the meantime, 0:57:53.360 --> 0:57:54.960 if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff 0:57:54.960 --> 0:57:56.360 to Blow Your Mind, you can find them in the 0:57:56.400 --> 0:57:59.080 Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed, available wherever you 0:57:59.080 --> 0:58:03.520 get your podcast us. We have Artifact episodes on Wednesdays, 0:58:03.560 --> 0:58:06.840 Core episodes of the show on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On 0:58:06.880 --> 0:58:09.040 Monday's we do listener mail, and on Friday we do 0:58:09.120 --> 0:58:11.200 Weird How Cinema. That's our time to set aside most 0:58:11.240 --> 0:58:14.680 serious matters and just focus in on a weird film. 0:58:14.720 --> 0:58:18.360 And we do occasionally cover time travel films. There we did, uh, 0:58:18.800 --> 0:58:22.240 we did what troys and transfers to time after time? 0:58:22.440 --> 0:58:24.400 And was there another one? I don't know if you 0:58:24.440 --> 0:58:27.680 count Morosco with the Sun going backward, but well we'll 0:58:27.680 --> 0:58:30.240 take it. We'll take That's That's three time travel movies, 0:58:30.280 --> 0:58:31.880 and I'm sure there will be more in the future. 0:58:32.080 --> 0:58:37.680 Guess what's coming up next? Transfers nine uh. Transfers nine uh. 0:58:37.680 --> 0:58:40.680 The atmosphere is time where they for they put Jack 0:58:40.760 --> 0:58:44.480 Death in a sardine can. I would do, I would do. 0:58:44.520 --> 0:58:48.680 Transfers three. Trances three is pretty fun anyway. Huge thanks 0:58:48.720 --> 0:58:52.320 as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 0:58:52.760 --> 0:58:54.160 If you would like to get in touch with us 0:58:54.160 --> 0:58:56.760 with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 0:58:56.760 --> 0:58:58.760 a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 0:58:58.840 --> 0:59:01.640 you can email us at contact. That's Stuff to Blow 0:59:01.680 --> 0:59:11.520 Your Mind dot car. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 0:59:11.560 --> 0:59:14.240 production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My 0:59:14.280 --> 0:59:17.240 heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:59:17.280 --> 0:59:27.800 or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.