1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: we are picking up with our our second episode about 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: time travel as a concept, time travel as it appears, 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: especially in fiction and the human imagination. The first episode 7 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: was Time Traveler zero Part one. Uh. Then we had 8 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: a little break and did another episode, and now we're 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: back with Time Traveler zero Part two. Now, I thought 10 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: this was going to be in one, but I guess 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 1: we wait, no, we're already in one. I get all 12 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: confused about years. I thought it was going to be 13 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: next year. But yeah, yeah, but then we ended up 14 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: shuffling some stuff around. So here we are earlier than 15 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: we thought. Yeah. Yeah, so we were just traveling back 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: and forth, uh, between past and future. Uh, though within 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: the the artificial confines of of our publication schedule. Now, 18 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: in the last episode, we talked about some of the 19 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: earliest possible appearances of forms of time travel in mythology 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: and literature, such as in the the Mahabarata and in 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: some say Japanese folk tales, where the way you could 22 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: probably describe the time travel mechanism is something like time dilations. 23 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: So uh so, for example, the the story of King 24 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: Ravada and his daughter Ravati in the in the Sanskrit 25 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: epics that would you know, they travel up to the 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: Brahma realm and they stay there for a few minutes. 27 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: But then they find because time moves differently in the 28 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: Brahma realm than it does down on Earth, millions of 29 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: years have passed and whoops, like that, their entire civilization 30 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: has gone and it's on to a different age. But 31 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: I think today we're going to look at a similar 32 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: but slightly different mechanism that appears in the history of 33 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: time travel mythology and literature, which is sleeping into the future. Yeah, 34 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: and this is this is one of the concepts that's 35 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: discussed in Paul J. Nayan's book Time Machines, Time Travel 36 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: in Physics, Metaphysics and Science Fiction, which is a book 37 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: that I I cited in the first episode. And we'll 38 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: continue to decide from this if you if you're looking 39 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: for a good time travel book that deals with like 40 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: the concept of time travel but also gets into some 41 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: of the heavier scientific contemplations of the topic. It's a 42 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: great book. To pick up. So Naan discusses that time 43 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: travel by dreaming was once a common literary device. And yeah, 44 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: that it's closely related to this idea of sleeping into 45 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: the future, the and and and this is something I 46 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: love because this is something that we can all relate 47 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: to because we all do it every night. Right. Well, 48 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: we lay our head down on the pillow, and you know, 49 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: there might be a little bit of struggle getting the 50 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: time machine activated. But once the once sleep mode is 51 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: in place, um, you were able to skip for word 52 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: in time. Now depending on how you sleep in the 53 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: nature of your dreams. Uh, you know, not every journey 54 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: is going to be the same. Some of these journeys 55 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: are a little round about, um, you know where suddenly 56 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: we have to you know, stop and how to to 57 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,959 Speaker 1: to steal a joke from Mitch Hedberg, we have to 58 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: let um uh build a toy playing with our boss 59 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: or something before getting to our destination. Uhart with my 60 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: landlord was go kart with the landlord. That was a 61 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: um yeah it say so. There might be some distractions 62 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: on the way, but when you wake up, it will 63 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: be tomorrow, it will be the next day, it will 64 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: be the next morning. Though one thing that's interesting about 65 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: that is, uh that I think if you ever have 66 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: the experience of going under general anesthesia and being able 67 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: to compare that experience to the normal experience of sleep, 68 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: at least for me, and I think this is pretty 69 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: common for others as well, the comparison to anesthesia makes 70 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: you aware that you are sort of semi conscious of 71 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: the passage of time during sleep in a way that 72 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: you're not really for the like the pure deep unconsciousness 73 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: of anesthesia, where I mean under the drugs, it's just 74 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, you snap your fingers and 75 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: then you're awake hours later, or at least that that's 76 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: sort of what I recall. But with with sleeping, you know, 77 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: you're not really conscious of the passage of time, but 78 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: you're you're sort of maybe liminally conscious that something is 79 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: going on. Time is somehow passing. It's not quite as 80 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: much of a pause and then play as as anesthesia is. Oh, 81 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,119 Speaker 1: I agree, absolutely, That's been my experience. Um. I guess 82 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: when you sleep and when you dream, time gets weird, uh, 83 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: and it may it may feel like it passes very quickly, 84 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: but when you go into anesthesia, um, time just disappears. Completely. 85 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: It is, like you said, just the like the snap 86 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: of a finger. Um. So, so yeah, that's something important 87 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: to keep in mind. But but but obviously, you know, 88 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: people for you know, thousands and thousands of years would 89 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: have been privy to this, this we good situation. And 90 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: maybe it's not even that weird because it does happen 91 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: every night. Though I would argue that the world of 92 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: dreams always offers a little weirdness. Uh. People would be 93 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: familiar with this, um this phenomena, and so we see 94 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: a play out in various stories. Uh. Probably the most 95 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: famous of these um still to this day is is 96 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: going to be Washington Irving's eighteen nineteen story Rip van Winkle, 97 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: in which a man sleeps his way twenty years into 98 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: the future. Now, of course, this this would become a 99 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: pretty standard trope of of of science fiction, especially when 100 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: you get into the realm of suspended animation. Uh. This 101 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: of course was parodied in the long running sci fi 102 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: animated series Futurama, where Fry essentially sleeps into the future 103 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: via cryogenics, but you as also find it in various 104 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: other works. One that Nayan mentions is um it was 105 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: is H. G. Wells when the Sleeper awakes from eighteen 106 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: nine nine, which is is not what I've read, not 107 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,239 Speaker 1: when I was from eliar with But this one involves 108 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: a sleep jaunt from the year eighteen ninety seven to 109 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: the year so you wake up and there are some 110 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: giant flying machines that look kind of like skeletal butterflies 111 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: or something. Oh yeah, there's some wonderful illustrations from this 112 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: that I was able to look up that I believe 113 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: we're part of the original published story. And yeah, they're 114 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: black and white, and yeah, there's like they're like enormous structures. 115 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: They are these flying machines that look like the they 116 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: look kind of like the ornithopters that the Wookies are 117 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: using in the Star Wars movies. Uh, really cool looking stuff. 118 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: There was also a seventeen seventy one tale by L. S. 119 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: Mercy Or about an eighteenth century sleeper who awakes in 120 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: the twenty five century. And I just have to say, 121 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: I love how so many of these time travel yarns 122 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: they're just really jumping out there. You know, they're going, uh, 123 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: you know, hundreds of years into the future. I wonder again, 124 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: I think I contemplated this a little bit in our 125 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: last episode, like, what does it say about a give 126 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: and time period, how far into the future time their 127 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: fictional time travelers are going now. One of the things 128 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: that Nan points out is that sleeping into the future 129 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: is quite an old trope, and uh it might well 130 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: be the oldest time travel concept in human storytelling. I 131 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: don't think any of the examples we're looking at would 132 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: go back farther than the Maha Barta, which did not 133 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: involve sleeping and was more of the time dilation version. 134 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: But but certainly it does go way back. I'm going 135 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: to cite a an example of sleeping into the future 136 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: from the ancient world in just a minute here. Well, 137 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: the one that that Naan shares is from around six D. 138 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: Gregory of Tours told a story titled the Seven Sleepers 139 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: of Ephesus, who traveled three hundred and seventy two years 140 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: via sleep whoa sometimes known as the Seven Sleepers. This 141 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: is a medieval tale told about a group of Christian 142 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: youths who hide in a cave outside of of the 143 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: city around to fifty c in order to escape Roman persecution, 144 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: and they emerge. I think that the exact number of 145 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: years they sleep varies I've seen three, I've seen three 146 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: seventy two. But they they wake up and they find 147 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: that the that everything has changed. The city is now 148 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: a city of believers and um and and a version 149 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: of this tale is also found in the Qoran. Now 150 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: that's interesting because it shows one of the things that 151 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: time travel is sometimes used to do in literature and 152 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: folk tales, which is to, uh, to sort of vindicate 153 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: a person's reputation or point of view, to to show 154 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: sort of like, yep, the future acknowledged they were right. 155 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: So these people go and fall asleep in a cave 156 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: as a persecuted minority and then come out and their 157 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: side is finally vindicated and has taken over. Yeah, and 158 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: and I guess on on a simpler level, it's it's 159 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: about using the time travel story to compare the past 160 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: and the future or the past in the present, whichever 161 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: compare two points of time, and have some character or 162 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 1: characters involved as the bridge between the two that can 163 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: provide a point of view. Yeah, that's right. So the 164 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: stories uh allow a level of perspective that doesn't occur 165 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: in reality. That you know that you can see two 166 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: things that a person in reality can can never see. 167 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: Both of two different ages. UH. But I found an 168 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: example I thought was really interesting because it turns out 169 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: sleeping into the future actually goes back even farther than, 170 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: uh than the seven Sleepers of Ephesus. I wanted to 171 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: talk about a really interesting example I came across in 172 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: the stories of the first century b c. E. Jewish 173 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: scholar and a legend miracle worker named Honey the Circle Maker. Now, 174 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: I think his best historians can tell Honey was a 175 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: real person. This is not like a purely legendary figure, 176 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: though I think some of the accounts of his life 177 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: are obviously probably legendary. But but it seems like this 178 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: was a real guy. He was a real scholar who 179 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: lived in the first century b c. E. He's not 180 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: mentioned in the he Brew Bible or the Tannock. He 181 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: he lived after the books of the Tannock were composed, 182 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: but stories about him are preserved in the Talmud, the 183 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: collection of of Jewish law and uh commentary known as 184 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: the Talmud. And he gets his epithet the circle Maker 185 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: or sometimes the circle drawer from the most famous story 186 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: about his life, which which I will tell now. And 187 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: I'm summarizing the version that appears in the Babylonian Talmud, 188 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: which I found in full text English translation with a 189 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: nice searchable online version called the William Davidson Digital Edition 190 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: of the Talmud. It's got both English and modern Hebrew 191 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: side by side, so it looks like a very usable edition. 192 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: But anyway, the story of the most famous miracle goes 193 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: like this. So there's this Jewish scholar named Honey Uh 194 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 1: and he is living in a time of drought, and 195 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: the people come to him and ask Honey to pray 196 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: to God that rain might fall. And Hony seems very 197 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: confident that he's going to get results be because he 198 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: tells the people that they need to go and bring 199 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: their clay ovens inside because there's about to be so 200 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: much rain that the clay will dissolve in the downpour. Yeah, 201 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: you don't want that happen. So Hony prays, but no 202 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: rain comes, and in response, Hony steps it up. So 203 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: he draws a circle in the dust on the ground, 204 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: and he stands inside the circle, and then he says, quote, 205 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: Master of the Universe, your children have turned to their 206 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: faces towards me, as I am like a member of 207 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: your household. Therefore I take an oath by your great name, 208 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: that I will not move from here until you have 209 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: mercy upon your children and answer their prayers for rain. 210 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: And apparently it works, because a little sprinkling of rain 211 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: then begins, but it's a weak rain. So Hony is 212 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: not satisfied, and he prays to God again, saying quote, 213 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: I did not ask for this, but for rain to 214 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: fill the cisterns, ditches and caves with enough water to 215 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: last the entire year. So then the rain picks up 216 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: and it starts to pour violently, mightily rushing rain. Uh. 217 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: And Hony isn't quite happy with this either, so he says, quote, 218 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: I did not ask for this damaging rain either, but 219 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: for rain of benevolence, blessing and generosity. I kind of 220 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: like that he's, uh, he's kind of standing up to 221 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: the Hebraic God in a way that you know, you 222 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: don't see in in various other stories, certainly you don't 223 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: see and say, like the Book of job right, there's 224 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: a very different attitude. Yeah, with Tony here and and 225 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: his sort of almost rudeness with God is is something 226 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: that does come up in a controversy in the epilogue 227 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: to the story, but just to quickly finish the story. Uh, 228 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: the narrative says quote. Subsequently, the rains fell in their 229 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 1: standard manner, but continued unabated, filling the city with water 230 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 1: until all of the Jews exited the residential areas of 231 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: Jerusalem and went to the Temple Mount due to the rain. 232 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: So he calls for rain and God provides it. But 233 00:12:57,679 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 1: then there's sort of an epilogue where there's like contraver 234 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: vers see about several things. First of all, the people 235 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: ask is it writing too much? Should should Hony pray 236 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: to God to make it stop now? And they have 237 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: a back and forth about that. But then also it's 238 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: the question is raised, you know, was there kind of 239 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: something wrong with the way Hony was was nagging God 240 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: for rain? Like the text, actually the English translation I 241 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: was looking at uses the word nag. But ultimately the 242 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: scholars conclude that, you know, Hony is okay because God 243 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: responded to his please without reprimand, and so it seems 244 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: like Hony's relationship with God is good. Well he was 245 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: like a member of his households. Yeah, exactly, they go 246 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: way back. So that's Hony the circle maker. But how 247 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: it becomes relevant to time travel is there is actually 248 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: a story of Hony sleeping into the future. Uh. And 249 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: this story is also from the Babylonian Talmud. It is 250 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: attributed to a Rabbi Johannan and I just want to 251 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: read it here and then we can talk about it 252 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: a bit quote. All the days of the life of 253 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: that righteous man Hony, he was destroy rest over the 254 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: meaning of this verse A song of a sense. When 255 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,839 Speaker 1: the Lord brought back those who returned to Zion, we 256 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: were like those who dream Psalms one one. He said 257 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: to himself, is there really a person who can sleep 258 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: and dream for seventy years? How is it possible to 259 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: compare the seventy year exile in Babylonia to a dream. 260 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: One day he was walking along the road when he 261 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: saw a certain man planting a carab tree. Honey said 262 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: to him, this tree, after how many years will it 263 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: bear fruit? The man said to him, it will not 264 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: produce fruit until seventy years have passed. Honey said to him, 265 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: is it obvious to you that you will live seventy 266 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: years that you expect to benefit from this tree? He 267 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: said to him, that man himself found a world full 268 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: of carab trees just as my ancestors planted for me, 269 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: I too, implanting for my descendants. Okay, so you know 270 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: it takes this tree seventy years to grow. He's but 271 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: he's not planting it, hoping to read up the fruits himself. 272 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: I guess these would be legum pods that grow off 273 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: of the charab tree um. You know, he's planting for 274 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: for future generations, his his descendants. But the story goes on. 275 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: So it says Honey sat and ate bread. Sleep overcame 276 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: him and he slept. A cliff formed around him, and 277 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: he disappeared from sight and slept for seventy years. When 278 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: he awoke, he saw a certain man gathering caribs from 279 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: that tree. Honey said to him, are you the one 280 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: who planted this tree? The man said to him, I 281 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: am his son's son. Honey said to him, I can 282 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: learn from this that I have slept for seventy years. 283 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: And indeed he saw his donkey had sired several herds 284 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: during those many years. Hony went home and said to 285 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: the members of the household, is the son of Hony 286 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: the circle Maker alive? They said to him, his son 287 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: is no longer with us, but his son's son is alive. 288 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: He said to them, I am Hony the circle Maker. 289 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: They did not believe him. They went to the study hall, 290 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: where he heard the sages say about one scholar his halicot. 291 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: And I think this word means um like religious laws 292 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: or writings of or about religious laws. His halicott are 293 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: as enlightening and as clear as in the years of 294 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: Hony the circle Maker. For when Tony would enter the 295 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: study hall, he would resolve for the stages any difficulty 296 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: they had. Honey said to them, I am he. But 297 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: they did not believe him and did not pay him 298 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: proper respect. Honey became very upset, prayed for mercy, and died. 299 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: And then it offers a bit of commentary. Rava said, 300 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: this explains the folk saying where when people say either 301 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: friendship or death, as one who has no friends is 302 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: better off dead. Oh wow, I thought this was a 303 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: really interesting story, and so there are a bunch of 304 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: things about it. One is that it ties into a 305 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: common theme of sleeping into the future, which is the 306 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: passing away of everything that one cares about in the presence. 307 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: So Hony sleeps seventy years into the future, but he's 308 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,239 Speaker 1: not confronted with You know, when we think of like 309 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: time travel and science fiction going into the future, a 310 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: lot of it is it is like people want to 311 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: see amazing new types of technology or some kind of 312 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: noticeable progress or or you know, or regress, you know, 313 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: something some kind of change in the world that is notable. 314 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: But but I don't think Hony really notices any um 315 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: change to the scenario of the world. There's nothing to 316 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: be amazed at. Instead, it's just that the unnoticed passage 317 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: of time is loss and life without your friends and 318 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: family is not worth living. Yeah, it's it's a nice's 319 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: a nice message. Um. Yeah, But but it's interesting too, 320 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: Like you said that the world hasn't really changed. There's 321 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: no indication that technology has changed. Um, And I guess 322 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: for a lot of people throughout history that probably seemed 323 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: to be the case. I mean that the basic technology 324 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: you're using and your understanding of the world has not changed. 325 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: This is just the way things are. These are the 326 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: tools we have. The things that will change, and you 327 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: know that they'll change, will be um. You know the 328 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: lifespans of of of human activity. You know that that 329 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: people will will live and die and be born and 330 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: grow old, and then also you know that uh uh, 331 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: there's a good chance that as as people live and die, 332 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: so will kings, so will rulers, and so there will 333 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: be the you know, the app and flow of dynasties 334 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: as as well as wars and so forth. Right, Another 335 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: interesting thing I thought about this is that Hony gets 336 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: to see his own posthumous reputation as a scholar, which 337 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: apparently is going very strong. Like he goes and finds 338 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: in the study hall that people really appreciate the teachings 339 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: of him, of Hony the Circle Maker, but he can't 340 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: really enjoy that that positive reputation now because people don't 341 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: believe he's really that guy that they respect. In principle, 342 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: that raises an interesting question about what we value and reputation. 343 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: Like most people want to be I want to have 344 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: a good reputation, want people to like them. But would 345 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: it be would you be happy to have a good 346 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: reputation if people didn't recognize you as yourself, if they 347 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: didn't connect you in your current body to the bearer 348 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: of that reputation. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty pretty interesting. I mean, 349 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: it's it makes you think about like legendary people and indeed, 350 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: what if you had time travel scenarios where they got 351 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 1: to travel into the future and they're like, oh, yeah, 352 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: I'm famous. But also that that image of me has 353 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: grown so and is and it is so revered that 354 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, me just standing here, they're not even gonna 355 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: identify me with that person right well, So anyway, I 356 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: think this story would not be as old as the 357 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: time dilation story in the Mahabar Toa, But otherwise I 358 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: think this may be the oldest time travel story that 359 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: that I been able to come across, And it's definitely 360 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: the oldest sleeping into the future story that I found. Now, 361 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: this wouldn't know this wouldn't be older, but I didn't. 362 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: I did run across some some interesting additional time weirdness 363 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: stories here, um uh. In between the publication of part 364 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: one in this series and the recording of Part two, 365 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: a listener by the name of Ahmed wrote in. Ahmed 366 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: has written in before with some interesting content, but this 367 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 1: time Amed wrote into share a couple of time travel 368 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 1: tales related to Islamic tradition. One of them and he 369 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: ends up mentioning the Seven Sleepers. Again, we had not 370 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,239 Speaker 1: actually recorded this episode yet, so he did not know 371 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: that seven seven sleepers were coming, but he also shared 372 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: the following us. So I'm going to read from Ahmed's 373 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: email quote. According to Muslim tradition, Mohammed ascends to Heaven 374 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: from Mecca on the back of a winged mount with 375 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: the angel Gabriel as his guide. There, he individually meets 376 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: with the prophets who came before him, ending with Moses 377 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: and Abraham. Finally, he has an audience with God, who 378 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: tells him to instruct Muslims to pray fifty times per day. 379 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: After some back and forth, at the urging of Moses, 380 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: who says that fifty is far too onerous, Muhammed leaves 381 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: with the current five day prayers for Buslims. Notably, many 382 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: Muslims sources say that when Mohammed returns from this journey, 383 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: his door is still swinging back and forth, suggesting either 384 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: a complete stoppage of time or at least a considerable dilation. 385 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: That is very interesting and plays once again on the 386 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: idea that that time passes differently in the heavens or 387 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: in the realm of God or the Gods than it 388 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: does here on earth. That maybe you know that you know, 389 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: I guess it's similar to the idea that a day 390 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: is as a thousand years and a thousand years as 391 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: a day. Yeah. So there's something about the story that 392 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, this this sounds familiar. I think I've 393 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: I've read this before, or I've I've heard something like 394 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: this before. So I looked into it a little bit 395 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: and then I realized, oh, yes, there is a there's 396 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: a wonderful creature involved in some of these tellings. Um 397 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: and and again um um ahm Ed mentioned that there's 398 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: a winged mount uh that that the prophet rides on, 399 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: and this creature is sometimes described as alba rock um, 400 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: which means the shining or resplendent one um. Those were 401 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: those translations were were provided by Jorge Luis Borges in 402 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: his book Imaginary Beings and Carol Rose the Folklore's also 403 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: provides the translation the lightning. So it's kind of a 404 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: winged centaur in many artist depictions. You can look up 405 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: images of of this. It's you know, sometimes spelled bu 406 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: r a q or b o r a k in English, 407 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: and Rose ads that it is. It's generally described as 408 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: being pure white. Uh. Sometimes it's covered with jewels and 409 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: precious stones that might be of varying colors, its breath 410 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: is perfume, and it can understand human speech, but sources 411 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: on are split on whether the creature can actually talk 412 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: itself where they can just understand. Um. But I wanted 413 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: to read just a bit from Borges his book here. Uh, 414 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: he shares a bit about about al baraq. Quote. One 415 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: Islamic Haadif tells us that his barak flew upward from 416 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: the earth. It kicked over a jar filled with water. 417 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: The prophet was taken up to the seventh Heaven, where 418 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 1: he spoke with each of the patriarchs and angels that 419 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: reside there, crossed the oneness, and felt a chill that 420 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: froze his heart when the hand of God patted him 421 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: on the shoulder. The time of men is not the 422 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: time of God. When he returned to earth, the prophet 423 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: caught the jar before a single drop of water had 424 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: spilled out of it. Wow. That Yeah, that's time dilation again. 425 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, the door is still swinging back 426 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: and forth. The jar of water that was dropped as 427 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: not yet hit the ground. Uh so so yeah, I 428 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: love this account and I love that we have this 429 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: wonderful uh fantastic beast here. Um. By the way, if 430 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: you pick up a copy of the Book of Imaginary Beings, 431 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,239 Speaker 1: the version that's in print right now with illustrations by 432 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: Peter Siss, al Baraque is on the cover, or a 433 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: depiction of al Baraque is on the cover. But but 434 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: also look up some of the various art art artistic 435 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: ways that this creature has been brought to life in 436 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: different Islamic cultures. Because it's pretty fabulous. Yeah, this illustration 437 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: is great because it is it's almost like a mix 438 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: between a pegasus and a megalithic sculpture. Yeah. Now, another 439 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: possible example of time travel and old texts, um can 440 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: be found in the sixteenth century Ming Dynasty text from 441 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: China Journey into the West. Um. And I actually had 442 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: not thought to look here until you mentioned it to Joe, 443 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: and so I ended up, uh checking it out. See 444 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: what exactly the Monkey King was up to that relates 445 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: to time travel. Oh okay, So I think I came 446 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: across a mention of time travel in the supplement to 447 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: the Journey to the West. But there, but there's time 448 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: travel in the original as well. Um. Yes, both to 449 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: a certain extent. So um. So if if you're Wondering 450 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: Journey into into the West Chinese classic. Uh. This is 451 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: a classic work and has been adapted many times in 452 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: many different forms. Uh and and it generally concerns the 453 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 1: exploits of the Monkey King or Soon Willkong, the Great 454 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 1: Sage equal to Heaven. Um. So there's uh and that's 455 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: so that's the main work. But yes, there's also this 456 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: supplemental work, supplement to the Journey to the West. And 457 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: in both cases the episodes concerned the time warping experience 458 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: of dream so in the In the original there's basically 459 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: just a section where years of training for Monkey are 460 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: compressed by a time trance. But yeah, when you get 461 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: into the supplement that's where things get really interesting. This 462 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: second work is also known as the Tower of Myriad 463 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: Mirrors in it, which I think Borges would would would 464 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: surely have loved that title. Uh. And it takes this 465 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: fantastic travelog style of the original and gives us even 466 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: more time weirdness. I was reading about this in an 467 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: article by Dr I ching Wang of the University of 468 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: Liverpool titled Tower of Myriad Mirrors, and so I want 469 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: to read just a quote from this quote in the 470 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 1: narrative Upon leaving the Flaming Mountain, the monkey uh I e. 471 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: Monkey King or Sugu and Kong is trapped in a 472 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: hallucinatory world of mirrors evoked by ching fish, a monster 473 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: epitomizing desire, and a negative force proportionate to the monkeys 474 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: innate morality, though a tower of myriad of mirrors is 475 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: in disparate identities. The monkey embarks on an array of 476 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: adventures to various time points, ranging from the immemorial Chin 477 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: to twenty one through two oh six BC dynasty to 478 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: the Song through twelve seventy dynasty that is preceded by 479 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: the story setting i e. The Tang dynasty six eighteen 480 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: through d Upon returning to his own era, the monkey 481 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: discovers that his master, the Priest, defies the abstinence from 482 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: sex and becomes a general, and the monkey is entangled 483 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: in a gargantuan war, during which he encounters his own offspring. 484 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: In the end, the monkey is awakened by the original 485 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: time traveler and kills the ching fish as the embodiment 486 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: of desire that entraps his altruism, thereby eliminating the negative 487 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: traits from his psyche or self. Okay, so if this 488 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: counts as a type of time travel. You might say 489 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: that it is time travel as a weapon, like a 490 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: weapon of distraction against the hero of the of this story. Yeah. Yeah, 491 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: and I guess in this, I mean, in this it 492 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: reminds me a lot of of the time travel that 493 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: we in a Christmas Carol, right, because it's all within 494 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: a dream essentially, it's all within the nighttime headspace of 495 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 1: a character. Uh. Though in the case of the Christmas Carol, 496 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: it is um it is being pulled off by a 497 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: ghost in order to try and save that individual from damnation, 498 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: and uh and in this case it is being orchestrated 499 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: by a demon in an attempt to u to distract 500 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: and corrupt our our hero. But so, because this novel, 501 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: the the Supplement to the Journey to the West is 502 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: written in the future about a previous era, it can 503 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: have its protagonist at least in this hallucinatory distraction thing 504 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: going through the air, looking through these mirrors, are going 505 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: through these mirrors and journeying two times into the past 506 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: and future from where he began. Yeah, it sounds pretty 507 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: pretty interesting. Um again, I have I haven't I haven't 508 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: read I have not read this work. But I was 509 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: running across some other papers that we're talking about UM 510 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: time travel potentially being used in some of the Monkey 511 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: King films that have come out, and there have been many. Again, 512 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: there have been many Monkey King films and TV shows 513 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: UH and the adaptations of Journey into the West. So 514 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: if anyone out there is has seen a bunch of them, 515 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: I think I've seen one or two. I don't remember 516 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: there being any time travel narratives, but it stands to 517 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: reason that time travel pops up in some of those adaptations. 518 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: So if you've seen one, that's pretty cool, let us know. 519 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: I'd love to know about it. Well, I'd at least 520 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: say that this is also notable for being UM, even 521 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: though you could say that there's some big caveats on 522 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: it because it's like a hallucinatory kind of thing. But 523 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: to the extent that you would consider this time travel, 524 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: it is one of the earliest examples I can think 525 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: of we've looked at that involves traveling backward, because all 526 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: of the others we've looked at so far, the time 527 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: dilation or the sleeping into the future, tend to just 528 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: involve traveling forward relative to the normal UH rate at 529 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: which time would pass or at which you would age. Yeah, 530 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: and it's um it's interesting to sort of try and 531 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: and and figure out like why that is the case. 532 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: And the best I can come up with is that 533 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: is probably what the author is um is touching on here, 534 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: the dynastic progression. Uh, the idea that like that that 535 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: history is important enough that you would want to comment 536 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: on it through through time travel. Um. Um so, yeah, 537 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: I don't know that. I'm sure there's more to the 538 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: story there, but but at any rate, Uh, here's here's 539 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: the Monkey King popping up as a one of our 540 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: our many older time travelers. Maybe not time Traveler zero, 541 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: but if it's still notable. You know, while we're on 542 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: the subject of um Chinese conceptualization of time, this reminds 543 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: me of an interesting email that we got, So maybe 544 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: we can we'll do a couple of listener mails within 545 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: this episode itself, which is actually I think very cool 546 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: that the time gap in between part one and two 547 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: has allowed us to incorporate some listener feedback into part 548 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: two itself here. But um so, so this is a 549 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: message we got from Bjorn. So this is responding to 550 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: the part of part one of this series where we 551 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: talked about visualizing time as a type of space, which 552 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: appears to be extremely common, maybe even universal, or if not, 553 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: it's nearly universal across languages on Earth. Uh. That that 554 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: we talk about time as if it were a type 555 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: of space, or a dimension of space, or a sort 556 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: of range within space. And uh. And then Rob, you 557 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: and I ended up talking about how how common it 558 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: is to discuss the future as if it is physically 559 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: in the space in front of us, in the past 560 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: as if it's physically in the space behind us. Uh. 561 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: This also appears to be pretty common cross culturally, but 562 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: apparently this is not universal. And this is really interesting. 563 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: So Biorn was passing along some comment from his girlfriend 564 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: who is from Hong Kong, and she apparently says, quote, 565 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: when you think of the future, you see it as 566 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: something in front of you, something you are moving towards. 567 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: The past, on the other hand, is something you have 568 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: left behind. In Cantonese. In the Cantonese language, the concepts 569 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: are reversed. The past is in front of you because 570 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: these are things which happened and you can now see clearly. 571 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: The future, on the other hand, is behind your back. 572 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: You can sense it but not perceive it with any clarity. 573 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: So I thought that was really interesting. I don't know 574 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: if I don't know how common or if that's near 575 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: a universal for Cantonese speakers, but I would be interested 576 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: to hear more about that, uh and that that makes 577 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: its own logical sense in a way, so you would 578 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: still be conceptualizing time as a type of space, but 579 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: just flipping the polls with respect to your body. But 580 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: but certainly, I mean, we were talking about metaphors in 581 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: the first episode. You know, it's like the way we 582 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: talk about time and in the way we think about 583 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: time like these these are the things that end up 584 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: affecting the way we construct our time travel narratives. Well, 585 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: it makes me wonder like if this is it, if 586 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: this is actually more common or there are there are 587 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: at least some languages in which it's more common to 588 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: uh to build metaphors where the space behind you is 589 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: the future, in the space in front of you is 590 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: the past. With that effect, how people who speak those 591 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: languages design uh time machines and science fictions? Are they 592 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,719 Speaker 1: less likely to be sort of forward facing vehicles like 593 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: you you often see in you know, the DeLorean and 594 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: stuff like that. Yeah, that's interesting now, you know, thinking 595 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: back to you, especially talking I was talking about this, 596 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: but also talking about not dreaming and sleeping. Um. For 597 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: the most part, we're talking about baseline human experience here 598 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: kind of extrapolated into into the fantastic um. But obviously 599 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: if you've add various other conditions and substances into the mix, uh, 600 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: time can seem even weirder. I know there's at least 601 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: one time travel story that Nayan mentions, uh, some early 602 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: work of literature in which somebody's hit on the head. Oh, no, 603 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: I know what it is. It was, of course, Mark 604 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: Twain's can Can Confederate Yankee and King Arthur's Court. I 605 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: believe the time travel What did I say, Confederate Yankee 606 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: Confederate Yankee? Well, yes, um, Connecticut Yankee. Rather uh in 607 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 1: In uh in in King or this court. Uh that 608 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: book which I think I read a long time ago. 609 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: I've forgotten all of it, but but I believe time 610 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: travel is achieved by that character being hit on the 611 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: back of the head with something. I think he is 612 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: the foreman in a factory and one of his workers 613 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: wax him on the head with a wrench. I think 614 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: that's right. And then travels back in time. So but 615 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: it is a reminder that, yes, when you start talking 616 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: about altered um, altered experiences of the brain, that adds 617 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: a different dimension to your contemplations of time travel um. 618 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: And you know this is the case too when you 619 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: start throwing in various substances. You know, we did a 620 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: whole series on psychedelics a couple of years back, and 621 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: one of the commonly sided effects there is the altered 622 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: perception of time. And you know we see this in 623 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: literature as well as far back as like Thomas de 624 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: Quincy's Two Confessions of an English opiameter. Oh yeah, Now 625 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: Nayan doesn't spend a lot of time with this. He 626 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: points out the quote smoking marijuana or taking amphetamines and 627 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: or LSD to achieve a non linear hallucinogenic experience of 628 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 1: time travel. Uh. He says that's sometimes used by writers 629 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: as a way of exploring the concept of time travel, 630 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: but it's not something that he set out to explore 631 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: extensively in the book. So I was thinking, well, who 632 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: who might have talked about psychedelics and time travel? I 633 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: was like, Oh, I wonder what Terence McKenna had to 634 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: say about this. So I started looking around for Terence 635 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: McKenna talking about time travel. And the weird thing was 636 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: is I ran across an interview with McKenna from Night 637 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: nine in which he mentions that he is currently reading 638 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: Nayan's book on time travel. Oh that's weird. I thought 639 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: for some reason, I thought that that Naan book came 640 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: out in like two thousand one. Well, there have been 641 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 1: different editions of it. Oh okay, yeah, let me see okay, 642 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: first published Okay, okay, okay, okay, so it is possible. Good, 643 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: Maybe the interview is from nine right right, yes, and 644 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: the book would have first come out. Sorry for all 645 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: the unnecessary time traveling, uh listeners, but at any rate, 646 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: uh they the short too late for the short version 647 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: on this. But basically I found it amusing that that 648 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: McKenna was talking about the very book that I had 649 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: been reading for this episode. Um and uh, I don't know. 650 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: Mckinnay didn't have a lot ex extra to add, but 651 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: he did talk a little bit about time travel and 652 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 1: some of his talks, mentioning that he liked the idea 653 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: that you can only travel back as far as the 654 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: time machine exists, so you can only go back as 655 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,760 Speaker 1: far as like day one of the time machine existing 656 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: as a time machine. Um and you know, intend to 657 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: explore it as kind of a fantasy scenario. But he 658 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: also lays out a scenario in which time travel is 659 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: more hyper spatial rather than linear. And uh and n asked, like, 660 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: what have you pushed the button on your time machine 661 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,320 Speaker 1: and simply made all future events seem to occur at once? 662 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: Uh so the time machine would be more like a 663 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: doorway to eternity rather than a gateway into the future. 664 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: Oh so, rather than actually transporting you, it just like 665 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: breaks the person inside's perception of time. Yeah, in a way. 666 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: You know this this reminds me of the movie uh 667 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,919 Speaker 1: Jack Frost that we just recently talked about for Weird 668 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: howth Cinema um in in that there's that you know, 669 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: that wonderful scene where she uh, where Nastinka begs uh 670 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: ruby ruby finger down to reverse itself like gets the 671 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: sun to to go back down over the horizon so 672 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,839 Speaker 1: that she has a little more time to finish her 673 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: chore by dawn. And uh and there's a lot there's 674 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: a lot of fun to be made on mystery science 675 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: theater riffing on that about Oh, well, you know this 676 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: is going to bring about tidal waves and global destruction, 677 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: to have the Sun suddenly stop uh and reverse itself, 678 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 1: or the planet you know, reverse itself, whichever, uh you know, 679 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: to just to totally screw up the celestial mc annex 680 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: of everything um in a way you could you could say, well, 681 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 1: maybe it would be the same thing with the time machine. 682 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: Say you did somehow create a machine that allowed you 683 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: to travel in time, that allows you to uh to 684 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: move around like this, Well, what if it just wrecked everything? 685 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: What if it just or if it didn't wreck everything, 686 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: you just like permanently screwed up your human perception of time. Well, 687 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: this is the idea that uh, that we talked about 688 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: with Daniel Whiteson where he was saying, you know, if 689 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: you were really trying to think about a machine that 690 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: would allow you to travel into the past and try 691 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: to make it work, he says, it would make more 692 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: sense the machine reverses the flow of time for the 693 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: entire universe around you than that it does anything for you. 694 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 1: And so time continues to pass normally for you, but 695 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: somehow it it makes time go backwards for the for 696 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: the entire rest of the world. Now, in the book 697 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: Nan goes into greater detail with lots of examples that 698 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: are definitely worth looking for for fans of old school 699 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: time traveler yarns. But I think it's safe to say 700 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: that you know they're there are older ideas and perhaps 701 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,720 Speaker 1: ancient ideas, you know, understanding that time passes in weird ways, 702 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: and that there's something particularly human about reflecting on the past, 703 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: worrying about the future, and engaging in patterns of thought 704 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 1: and systems of behavior that can connect us to different 705 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: times and even deliver us to different times. Certainly in 706 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,919 Speaker 1: the When We When We Sleep into the Future now, 707 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: um Nan writes a little bit about time machines, of course, 708 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 1: and uh he says, the machines entered the scenario because 709 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: they represent reason and of course science, and they indicate 710 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: the belief that there may be some sort of way 711 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: to make possible what it is to varying degrees thought possible, 712 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 1: at least under certain circumstances. Um particularly if you're talking 713 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 1: about time travel into the future. Yeah, this is interesting, 714 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: and this brings me back to um some thoughts that 715 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: that I was reading and listen to an a lecture 716 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: by a scholar that I'm in and in the previous 717 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: part who is a professor of science fiction studies at 718 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,479 Speaker 1: Georgia Tech named Lisa Yazik, And you know, she draws 719 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: some connections between specific developments in technology and not just technology, 720 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: technology and transportation infrastructure. In the late nineteenth century, that 721 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 1: sort of pushed forward the idea that you could create 722 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: a time machine. Now, of course we know that H. G. 723 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: Wells The Time Machine published in eighteen This was a 724 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: hugely influential work of science fiction that I think would 725 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,800 Speaker 1: inspire a lot of the time travel stories that came afterward. 726 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: But it was by no means the first story about 727 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,919 Speaker 1: time travel. But one thing you can say is that 728 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: almost all of the time travel stories before Wells, we're 729 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: not really science fiction, and that the time travel mechanic 730 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: was almost always a sort of inexplicable, uh, fantasy thing, 731 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: and it was like the action of a god or 732 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: an angel or some kind of supernatural imposition, or it 733 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: was some type of time dilation by going to different 734 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 1: planes of existence or something. But but with Wells, you 735 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:18,359 Speaker 1: get a time machine, a vehicle that is created by science. Now, 736 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: I think it's not even the very first example of 737 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: that that I want to mention. Another example I came 738 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,360 Speaker 1: across that that I think is very funny and it 739 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: will be fun to read a little bit from. But 740 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: I was just watching a lecture by Yazik where she 741 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: she mentions a couple of things. One is that before 742 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: you get to the time machine, um a number of 743 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: the time travel stories from the nineteenth century that involved 744 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: traveling through time based on some kind of device used 745 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: not vehicles but clocks. And a classic example here is 746 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: a story called the Clock that Went Backward by Edward 747 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: Page Mitchell that was published in eighteen eighty one. And 748 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: this is about this is also kind of a fantasy story. 749 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like a clock that was designed 750 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,439 Speaker 1: to do this by and a scientist, inventor or something 751 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,879 Speaker 1: who wanted to travel through time. It's just like there's 752 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: a weird clock and when you wind it up, people 753 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: nearby can get sent back in time. But the thing 754 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: that I thought was interesting was that he Asik mentioned, 755 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, these stories about technological time travel arising in 756 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: an age of standardization of time measures h for for 757 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: industry and politics. So in this era of industrialization, coordination 758 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: of rapid transport through train stations and shipping ports in 759 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:38,800 Speaker 1: in the late nineteenth century. Um, something happens in people's 760 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 1: consciousness that makes them think about time differently, and this 761 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: maybe helps give rise to the proliferation of time travel 762 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: stories that would follow than now. I was also reading 763 00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: a short introduction that that Laci Azik wrote to a 764 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: recent new edition of The Time Machine by H. G. Wells. 765 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 1: It was the dred And twenty fifth anniversary edition, So yeah, 766 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:10,320 Speaker 1: I guess that would have been last year, right, and 767 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: published in eighteen came out in Karence McKenna read it 768 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 1: in Yeah exactly, Okay, you come more of an inside 769 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 1: joke for us, okay, uh. But so she writes about 770 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 1: how so The Time Machine the novel was published in 771 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: eighteen uh, and that was sort of the work that 772 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: launched H. G. Wells literary career. He was born in 773 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty six, so I guess he was only like 774 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: twenty nine at the time that it came out. Though. 775 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: The Time Machine the Novel was actually based on a 776 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: short story that Wells had written seven years before, called 777 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,439 Speaker 1: and I Love this the Chronic Argonauts. Have you read 778 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: this one? Rob? I have not. I have not either, 779 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,320 Speaker 1: So it's it's sort of I think a shorter earlier 780 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 1: version of the time Machine where the hero is not 781 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 1: so much a hero, he's more of a mad science 782 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,760 Speaker 1: tist who gets into trouble by creating a time machine 783 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,720 Speaker 1: and unleashs havoc that goes on for thousands of years. 784 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: But interesting fact I learned from from Yazak's intro here. 785 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: Apparently Wells published this story in his college lipmag. So 786 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 1: let this be an inspiration to you college lipmag editors 787 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: out there. Yeah. Yeah, it could be the place where you, um, 788 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 1: you published the garbage version of your future it um. 789 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 1: But yeah. So in subsequent years, Wells revised and expanded 790 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,799 Speaker 1: the short story until it developed into the novel that 791 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,279 Speaker 1: we know today. Um and so. Wells apparently wrote in 792 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: later years that he believed there was a rule for 793 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: writing good science fiction. I'm not sure if I agree 794 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 1: with this, but but it's interesting. So he says, to 795 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: have good sci fi, you need to give the story 796 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: only one fantastical element, and then make everything else as grounded, 797 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: realistic and human as you possibly can. So how would 798 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 1: that apply to the time Machine? Well An example is 799 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: that in the original short story The Chronic Argonauts, Wells 800 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: had the protagonists living in a Gothic mansion in the countryside. 801 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,319 Speaker 1: And so I think the implication here is that it 802 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 1: would invite readers to think of other tropes of Gothic literature, 803 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: the mysterious, the uncanny. I think the association I would 804 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,359 Speaker 1: have would be with like Charlotte Bronte and Jane Eyre. 805 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,959 Speaker 1: But in the Time Machine and the novel version, he 806 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,840 Speaker 1: he rewrote it to uh to locate the protagonist in 807 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: a bourgeois neighborhood of London, basically as mundane an uninteresting 808 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,200 Speaker 1: as setting as he could think of. But you go 809 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: into this mundane uh, you know, bourgeois household, and here's 810 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 1: the time Machine. It's interesting how you don't think about 811 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,120 Speaker 1: the setting of the time Machine being mundane today because 812 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,920 Speaker 1: it is. It is now an historical work. So the 813 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: idea that it's it's set uh in um in this 814 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: neighborhood in London, like that's part of it's such as charm, 815 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 1: it's appeal. Like essentially you have you have two different 816 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 1: elements that are that are foreign to the to the reader, 817 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,880 Speaker 1: more than two. But the time Machine becomes a novelist 818 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 1: full of a strange and wonderful places that are not 819 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: our own reality. Right. I guess the idea today would 820 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: be like, uh, what if you went into a house 821 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: like a McMansion in the suburbs and in the subdivision 822 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: here and here it is, here's the time machine. Now 823 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 1: we've already mentioned that the time Machine is by no 824 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: means the first story to depict time travel. Obviously, if 825 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 1: you include time dilation and sleeping into the future, time 826 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,279 Speaker 1: travel stories can be found here and there, well into 827 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: the ancient past, and even some stories of more direct 828 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,160 Speaker 1: time travel, such as being delivered documents from the future. 829 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 1: I think that's something that happens in a story called 830 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,520 Speaker 1: Memoirs of the Twentieth Century written by Samuel Madden and 831 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: published in the eighteenth century. I think this was like 832 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 1: seventeen thirty three, and basically the story is an angel 833 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: appears from the future and delivers some letters from future 834 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 1: people to people living at the time. Yeah, from the 835 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,759 Speaker 1: years nine and nineteen. And then of course you get 836 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: these nineteenth century examples we've been talking about, like the 837 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: clock that went backwards and stuff that there are still 838 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,719 Speaker 1: and uh and Christmas Carol and kinnec Yankee and King 839 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: Arthur's Court that are still basically fantasies, but Yeas, it 840 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 1: makes the distinction that the Wells is really the first 841 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: to popularize time travel as a convention of of realistically 842 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: grounded science fiction, and to popularize the idea of the 843 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,760 Speaker 1: time machine as a piece of technology, specifically a vehicle 844 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,760 Speaker 1: that is deliberately designed to allow people to navigate time 845 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,719 Speaker 1: in the same way that people use regular vehicles to 846 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: navigate space. And I think she says, you know, the 847 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,279 Speaker 1: obvious comparison if you look at this, uh, at its 848 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,919 Speaker 1: historical setting. This is in the eighteen nineties. This would 849 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,600 Speaker 1: have been when we're seeing bicycles and early automobiles, so 850 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,759 Speaker 1: so there's a lot of vehicular consciousness at the time. Yeah. 851 00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,799 Speaker 1: But I was wondering, Okay, are there earlier examples of 852 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: actual time machines like science fiction time machines. Well, it 853 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:03,840 Speaker 1: depends on what you count, Like do you count the 854 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 1: clock that went backwards? Probably not really, that's just kind 855 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,839 Speaker 1: of a weird little fantasy object. Um. But I did 856 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 1: find at least one thing that looks pretty much like 857 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:18,080 Speaker 1: a conventional time machine that does just barely pre date Wells, 858 00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,280 Speaker 1: and this would be the nineteenth century Spanish author Enrique 859 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:28,759 Speaker 1: Gaspar's novel L Anacronopete, which was apparently published one year 860 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,360 Speaker 1: before Wells story The Chronic Argonauts, so this would have 861 00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:36,840 Speaker 1: been in eighteen eighties seven. And this novel describes a 862 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 1: an inventor who creates this device that I think is 863 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,080 Speaker 1: basically a giant sealed metal box that is equipped with 864 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,800 Speaker 1: huge pneumatic apparatus is that allow you to travel through time, 865 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,799 Speaker 1: including traveling backwards through time. And I haven't read this 866 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,240 Speaker 1: novel in full, but I was scanning through an English 867 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,479 Speaker 1: translation and I came across a part that I thought 868 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,879 Speaker 1: was so good that I wanted to share it here 869 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: because it's it's where the inventor is explaining his theory 870 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:12,240 Speaker 1: of time via the example of sardines and canned peppers. Robert, 871 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,399 Speaker 1: are you ready for this? Okay? So the inventor says, 872 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,719 Speaker 1: it's common knowledge that to preserve sardines from nantes or 873 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,640 Speaker 1: peppers from calahora, we must remove the air from their 874 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 1: tin cans. Wrong, we must remove the atmosphere, and consequently 875 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: the time you see the air is no more than 876 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,360 Speaker 1: a compound of nitrogen and oxygen, whereas the atmosphere, in 877 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,600 Speaker 1: addition to consisting of eighty parts nitrogen to twenty parts. 878 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,360 Speaker 1: Oxygen also contains an amount of water, vapor and carbonic 879 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,680 Speaker 1: acid elements that are never left behind when forming a vacuum. 880 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,720 Speaker 1: But never mind the science, let's speak to common sense. 881 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,960 Speaker 1: Imagine the world is a tin of red peppers from 882 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,799 Speaker 1: which we have not extracted the atmosphere. What happens when 883 00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,560 Speaker 1: the hand is sealed without this precaution, Time begins to 884 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 1: exert its influence and carry out its work. First, a 885 00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,719 Speaker 1: few molecules adhere to the sides of the container, agglomerating 886 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,520 Speaker 1: and solidifying, only to petrify with the passage of years 887 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,319 Speaker 1: and yield those substances in which we would find the 888 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,880 Speaker 1: mineral beginnings of primitive rock. We then note that the 889 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 1: substance is covered with a kind of scum that is 890 00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:28,800 Speaker 1: none other than rudimentary vegetation. And finally, microscopic organisms in 891 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 1: the water vapor come to life, reproduce, and develop like 892 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,360 Speaker 1: maggots in our tin of preserves, enriching it with the 893 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 1: unending variety of the animal kingdom. Can you still doubt 894 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:43,719 Speaker 1: that the atmosphere is time? This is one of those 895 00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 1: things that's like wrong, but genius, Yeah, like this is 896 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:54,760 Speaker 1: it's he really thought long and hard. Uh. And well 897 00:50:55,320 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 1: on this, this this thoroughly uh incorrect mechanism for time. Well, 898 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,680 Speaker 1: I like that. It's it's sort of making the intuitive 899 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,479 Speaker 1: connection again between time and entropy, which we talked about 900 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,480 Speaker 1: in our interview with Daniel, because it's saying like, okay, 901 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:14,279 Speaker 1: so things in a can, they don't rot you, if 902 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,840 Speaker 1: you don't know any better, you might presume this because 903 00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,839 Speaker 1: the time has been removed from the can and it 904 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,839 Speaker 1: takes time for things to rot. Well, you know, it's 905 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,960 Speaker 1: coming back to that idea of of time as a 906 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,399 Speaker 1: as a measure of change in the universe, and if 907 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,560 Speaker 1: in the can things are not changing, what does that 908 00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,400 Speaker 1: say about about time? Uh? And in a way it 909 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,960 Speaker 1: kind of serves as a nice you know, it's it's 910 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,320 Speaker 1: ridiculous and it takes a second to really think about 911 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,040 Speaker 1: what it's even trying to say with with this atmosphere 912 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,480 Speaker 1: is time. But but in a way it kind of 913 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,640 Speaker 1: serves as an It kind of throws you off out 914 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,600 Speaker 1: of your your your back of the future line of thinking, 915 00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,120 Speaker 1: where you think about time as this linear thing that 916 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:57,960 Speaker 1: you could conceivably move about in um. But but this 917 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,239 Speaker 1: is an entirely different model. So I had a hard 918 00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,840 Speaker 1: time finding. Scrolling through the book trying to find details 919 00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,640 Speaker 1: on exactly how how the time travel itself works, like 920 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,279 Speaker 1: when you're going backward, I couldn't find that part, but 921 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,560 Speaker 1: at least according to the wiki summary, what it says 922 00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,880 Speaker 1: is that the machine flies backward through the atmosphere against 923 00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,720 Speaker 1: the rotation of the earth, and this is what allows 924 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,359 Speaker 1: time travel into the past. That would seem to fit 925 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,279 Speaker 1: with the other part about the atmosphere, but I'm not 926 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 1: positive on this. So but maybe one day I will 927 00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,759 Speaker 1: just read this book in full, because it looks like 928 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,600 Speaker 1: it might be kind of bad but pretty fun. Yeah, 929 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:38,040 Speaker 1: I mean that that concept is pretty uh, it's pretty crazy. 930 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,480 Speaker 1: I like it. Also, just while I'm on the subject 931 00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:45,239 Speaker 1: of of an a macronopete, I gotta say that I 932 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,040 Speaker 1: skipped ahead to the end of the story to see 933 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:51,200 Speaker 1: what happens, and it apparently involves the inventor going mad 934 00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,920 Speaker 1: and accelerating the time machine all the way back to 935 00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:58,200 Speaker 1: the beginning of time. Oh wow, do you mind if 936 00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,000 Speaker 1: I read this part too? Yeah? No, I want to 937 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:01,239 Speaker 1: know what he does there? What do you what do 938 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:04,160 Speaker 1: you do? Okay? So, uh, I guess he's arguing with 939 00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,759 Speaker 1: the other passengers in the in the time machine, and 940 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:12,200 Speaker 1: he says, it's useless, continued the lunatic, laughing convulsively. Don't 941 00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,520 Speaker 1: you see that our speed has increased fivefold? Nothing can 942 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,840 Speaker 1: stop us. I have destroyed the controls, and l n 943 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:24,000 Speaker 1: Acronopete runs headlong into the primordial white hot essence. And 944 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:29,040 Speaker 1: then people cry out horrors. Death awaits us in the chaos. Chaos. Look, 945 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,000 Speaker 1: and then it says, And indeed through the porthole glowed 946 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,640 Speaker 1: a dim light that marked the beginning of the natural 947 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:40,240 Speaker 1: world and the end of formless emptiness. But continuing backward, 948 00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:45,240 Speaker 1: chaos gradually but persistently increased, and soon not even thick 949 00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,000 Speaker 1: pork glass would be enough to hold back the flood 950 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,080 Speaker 1: of water, earth, and fire, all agitated in a suspension 951 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:56,160 Speaker 1: of air via periodic violent collisions that propelled the floating 952 00:53:56,239 --> 00:54:00,760 Speaker 1: vehicle through that incandescent matter. The inalterabile at the procedure 953 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:04,680 Speaker 1: that they'd all undergone had lost its potency. Asphyxia was 954 00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:08,399 Speaker 1: overtaking the travelers. The walls could no longer stop the heat, 955 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:12,200 Speaker 1: and finally the glass melted, letting forth a torrent of 956 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:17,719 Speaker 1: igneous substances. With the boom of a hundred volcanoes, and 957 00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,799 Speaker 1: then there's like a like an eight line ellipsis, and 958 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,480 Speaker 1: then and then the inventor wakes up having fallen asleep 959 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,560 Speaker 1: at a play and it was a dream. And I'm 960 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,360 Speaker 1: not sure if I'm not sure if the entire novel 961 00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:33,600 Speaker 1: was a dream, or if only part of it leading 962 00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,360 Speaker 1: up to that end point was a dream. I don't know. 963 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,160 Speaker 1: I'll have to go in and read the whole thing someday. 964 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:39,239 Speaker 1: I mean, it's almost like there there used to be 965 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,440 Speaker 1: a law. That's sad. Look, you can explore the concept 966 00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,960 Speaker 1: of time travel all you like, provided everything takes place 967 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,200 Speaker 1: within the space of a dream or vision. Why are 968 00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:50,520 Speaker 1: they always doing the dream? I mean, why does it 969 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:52,680 Speaker 1: need to be a dream? Again? I guess it comes 970 00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:56,240 Speaker 1: back to just the basic understanding that the dream dreams 971 00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:00,239 Speaker 1: or where time is weird. Therefore that's where time ravel 972 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,759 Speaker 1: is going to happen. I mean, does the author think, Wow, 973 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:04,440 Speaker 1: if people get to the end of this book and 974 00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:06,560 Speaker 1: I don't say it was all a dream, They're gonna 975 00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,120 Speaker 1: think I'm nuts. So I've got to just say, well, 976 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,320 Speaker 1: that didn't actually happen. Or maybe they were thinking, look, 977 00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,800 Speaker 1: they're gonna actually invent time travel in like ten fifteen 978 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:21,319 Speaker 1: years top, and I don't want my work to them date. 979 00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,040 Speaker 1: But if it's all within the context of a dream, 980 00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:26,560 Speaker 1: you can't say I got it wrong. That's good, that's 981 00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,560 Speaker 1: very good. So let's see. We've looked at various concepts 982 00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:32,960 Speaker 1: of time travel here, time travel by machine, time travel 983 00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:38,440 Speaker 1: involving um manipulation of the atmosphere, time travel by magical beast, 984 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:43,399 Speaker 1: time travel by a drug, by head wound um. Oh man, 985 00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:46,600 Speaker 1: there's so many ways to think about it. Time travel 986 00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,719 Speaker 1: by cave, time travel by sleep. The cave is an 987 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,399 Speaker 1: interesting one too, because, of course the cave also makes 988 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:56,279 Speaker 1: one think of the tomb uh, time travel via via 989 00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,400 Speaker 1: death and it um. Yeah, I guess it also reminds 990 00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,520 Speaker 1: me of like all these various other stories of like 991 00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,560 Speaker 1: characters of venturing into realms, beyond life for realms, even 992 00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:10,080 Speaker 1: beyond death, venturing into the underworld or into you know, 993 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,239 Speaker 1: to purgatory or paradise. You know, they're all these fantastic 994 00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:20,000 Speaker 1: stories about somebody traveling elsewhere, learning something and then eventually 995 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,600 Speaker 1: coming back or trying to come back anyway, and and ultimately, 996 00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,480 Speaker 1: like time travel stories are of the same mold, right, 997 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:32,480 Speaker 1: It's about somebody traveling into the fantastic realm and then 998 00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:36,680 Speaker 1: returning and that fantastic realm it might be hell, it 999 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,160 Speaker 1: might be um the nineteen fifties, you know, it might 1000 00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:42,920 Speaker 1: be uh, you know, seven years into the future. It 1001 00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,440 Speaker 1: might be all a dream, but let's hope it's not. 1002 00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,560 Speaker 1: But regarding the l en Acrono Pete, I do want 1003 00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:51,480 Speaker 1: to say, well, it looks like a great story. And 1004 00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:55,600 Speaker 1: while it does appear to predate Wells short story by 1005 00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:57,759 Speaker 1: one year, I think it's probably still fair to say 1006 00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 1: that that Wells is probably the major popularizer of of 1007 00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:05,840 Speaker 1: the idea of the time machine as technology and science fiction. Yeah, 1008 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,359 Speaker 1: Wells as Wells time machine is hard to be. Like 1009 00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,400 Speaker 1: we said before on the show, like it's it's a 1010 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:14,520 Speaker 1: great book. It's still very readable, very enjoyable. All right, Well, 1011 00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:16,600 Speaker 1: we're gonna go ahead and close this episode out, but 1012 00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:18,800 Speaker 1: obviously we'd love to continue to hear from everyone out 1013 00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,640 Speaker 1: there insights you have about time travel stories and myths 1014 00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:26,440 Speaker 1: and legends, traditions, and of course books and movies. What 1015 00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,800 Speaker 1: are some of your favorites right in let us know, uh, 1016 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,360 Speaker 1: you know, the smartest time travel or to time travel 1017 00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,880 Speaker 1: stories that are just a lot of fun, even if 1018 00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,480 Speaker 1: you you don't dare think about them too hard? Can 1019 00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,760 Speaker 1: you find earlier examples of of of intentionally created vehicles 1020 00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:44,680 Speaker 1: for time travel? I want to know, does it go 1021 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:50,280 Speaker 1: back earlier than yeah, yeah, or other time traveling magical creatures? 1022 00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,320 Speaker 1: Obviously I want to hear about that. In the meantime, 1023 00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:54,960 Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff 1024 00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:56,360 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, you can find them in the 1025 00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,080 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed, available wherever you 1026 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:03,520 Speaker 1: get your podcast us. We have Artifact episodes on Wednesdays, 1027 00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:06,840 Speaker 1: Core episodes of the show on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On 1028 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,040 Speaker 1: Monday's we do listener mail, and on Friday we do 1029 00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,200 Speaker 1: Weird How Cinema. That's our time to set aside most 1030 00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,680 Speaker 1: serious matters and just focus in on a weird film. 1031 00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,360 Speaker 1: And we do occasionally cover time travel films. There we did, uh, 1032 00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:22,240 Speaker 1: we did what troys and transfers to time after time? 1033 00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:24,400 Speaker 1: And was there another one? I don't know if you 1034 00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:27,680 Speaker 1: count Morosco with the Sun going backward, but well we'll 1035 00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,240 Speaker 1: take it. We'll take That's That's three time travel movies, 1036 00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:31,880 Speaker 1: and I'm sure there will be more in the future. 1037 00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:37,680 Speaker 1: Guess what's coming up next? Transfers nine uh. Transfers nine uh. 1038 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,680 Speaker 1: The atmosphere is time where they for they put Jack 1039 00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:44,480 Speaker 1: Death in a sardine can. I would do, I would do. 1040 00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:48,680 Speaker 1: Transfers three. Trances three is pretty fun anyway. Huge thanks 1041 00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:52,320 Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 1042 00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:54,160 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 1043 00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,760 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 1044 00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:58,760 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 1045 00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,640 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact. That's Stuff to Blow 1046 00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:11,520 Speaker 1: Your Mind dot car. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 1047 00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,240 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My 1048 00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,240 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1049 00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:27,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.