Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome back.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, very excited to dive right into this one
Speaker 2: today because I'm assuming if you're here that you heard
Speaker 2: part one of our Oppenheimer's story. Be weird if you didn't,
Speaker 2: you just chose to start here.
Speaker 1: I mean, I hope. So maybe I feel a little
Speaker 1: at sea.
Speaker 2: Right, Maybe I had an episode randomizer that picked this
Speaker 2: one for you. We'll go back and listen to part
Speaker 2: one first, otherwise you'll be very lost.
Speaker 1: Probaly like it better that way, the flow, the flow
Speaker 1: is better. Yeah, we wanted to kind of dive into
Speaker 1: the women in Oppenheimer's life because we saw the movie
Speaker 1: and it's great, love it, fantastic film. Definitely go see it.
Speaker 1: But as anyone will point out to you, but not
Speaker 1: just us, but anyone will point out to you, Christopher
Speaker 1: Nolan not that great at writing women characters. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I can see that he made a concerted effort to
Speaker 1: include some women in this film, and I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Hats off to you, sir, But there's still a little sketter,
Speaker 1: so kind of wanted to fill in a little more
Speaker 1: of their personalities and the role they really played in
Speaker 1: his life besides just Jean was a communist and that
Speaker 1: made trouble for him, and he was a drunk and
Speaker 1: that made trouble for him. Like, you know, that's not
Speaker 1: enough for me. I want to know more.
Speaker 2: It's a three hour movie as it is, I know,
Speaker 2: and there's only so much, but it is I think
Speaker 2: we have discussed it's a common problem that sure, this
Speaker 2: movie doesn't have time and shouldn't have to focus on
Speaker 2: the side characters. I mean, you know, like Josh Harten's
Speaker 2: character doesn't get much more time either. But the problem
Speaker 2: is there aren't any movies out there telling Getty's story
Speaker 2: and story so and.
Speaker 1: Sadly it wouldn't be that interesting of a movie, probably
Speaker 1: because of the kind of limited lives that women were
Speaker 1: forced to them. That's the thing that get frustrated, because
Speaker 1: I'm like, you wouldn't want to necessarily watch a movie
Speaker 1: about the women of Los Alamos sitting around waiting to
Speaker 1: not hear from their husbands what they're up to.
Speaker 2: I'd watch Greta Gerwig do it.
Speaker 1: I would watch Greta Gerwig. She would find a way,
Speaker 1: she would find a way. But all that to say is,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's not women's choice that they
Speaker 1: have the boring part of history. You know what I'm saying, Like,
Speaker 1: these ladies were trying to make their own way and
Speaker 1: do cool things, and they got sidetracked by the way
Speaker 1: the world was. And that's very frustrating and it makes
Speaker 1: me be like, yeah, I hear you. You don't want
Speaker 1: to hear a movie about it. But that's part of
Speaker 1: my problem, is that you don't want a movie of
Speaker 1: their lives because.
Speaker 2: Of well anyway, and again, I think once we often
Speaker 2: dig into that history and you unearth as much as
Speaker 2: you can, you find out there was interesting stuff going on,
Speaker 2: very true, and either it wasn't well recorded or it
Speaker 2: just wasn't well thought of for a long time.
Speaker 1: But you know what I do.
Speaker 2: I want Credit Rwig to do a movie about the
Speaker 2: women of Oppenheimer, and then I want Christopher Nolan to
Speaker 2: do Ken spinoff, and I want to see those. Just
Speaker 2: imagine they can't same weekend release date again for both
Speaker 2: of them. The time the time talk about saving Hollywood.
Speaker 1: Listen, but what Ken is it? Ken minto Makino, He goes.
Speaker 2: Backwards there, Ken's time distortion experience.
Speaker 1: He's got all these tattoos all over him. I would
Speaker 1: actually buy them Memento Ken little tattoos all over him.
Speaker 1: Say hi to Barbie.
Speaker 2: He's got it written across his chest upside down.
Speaker 1: Take a look at it.
Speaker 2: All right, all right, well we are going to talk
Speaker 2: about those movies, yes, But first, in the first part
Speaker 2: of this episode, we're going to finish up the story
Speaker 2: of uh of Robert Oppenheimer and Kitty his wife. I
Speaker 2: think we get a little back in the gene again.
Speaker 2: And then of course our friend Ruth Tolman so lots
Speaker 2: left to tell very exciting stuff. And again, if you
Speaker 2: haven't seen the movie, this I think is a little
Speaker 2: more spoilery than the stuff we mentioned in part.
Speaker 1: One, but it was more fun to watch it not knowing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but you know, see the movie. Either way,
Speaker 2: I say, we just dive in and get started.
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Hey their French condition, Well, Eli and
Speaker 1: Diana got some stories to tell. There's no match making
Speaker 1: a romantic tips. It's just about ridiculous relationship. I loove.
Speaker 1: There might be any type of person at all, and
Speaker 1: abstract concept or a concrete wall. But if there's a
Speaker 1: story worth the second clans, we'll put it in a show.
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Romance, A production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: So apparently in her drunkenness, Kitty would get a little
Speaker 2: graphic about her sex life, and she made comments about
Speaker 2: how she had to teach Oppenheimer about foreplay and that
Speaker 2: sex could be fun. He previously was not aware, and
Speaker 2: he was like, oh, I thought it was for science.
Speaker 1: It's probably very mechanical. Uhh science joke maybe in his approach,
Speaker 1: and she was like, hey, we could have a good
Speaker 1: time with this.
Speaker 2: Uh huh. You put the one in the zero that's.
Speaker 1: Sex, So that works too well, honestly, go ahead.
Speaker 2: So klausen Strasinski take this information to show that maybe
Speaker 2: Robert's relationship with Gene Tatlock wasn't really as sexually charged
Speaker 2: as we've heard it or seen it portrayed in the movie,
Speaker 2: because he's just again, he's not this like passionate sexual
Speaker 2: guy necessarily until Kitty got her claws in him, right well,
Speaker 2: and in.
Speaker 1: The film when you see Gene, they're either having sex
Speaker 1: or they just had sex, right. So it's just very like,
Speaker 1: if you were just to watch the film and not
Speaker 1: look at any research, you might think, oh, Robert and
Speaker 1: Jean were like passionate sexy sex times he and Kitty
Speaker 1: were like just a good merit, like she was just
Speaker 1: the right wife for him or something. But that's not
Speaker 1: necessarily the case. So anyway, So.
Speaker 2: And here's a little bit about just something that I
Speaker 2: loved in the movie. Even Kitty's detractors, even tho all
Speaker 2: the people who talked shit about Kitty, could not deny
Speaker 2: that when she was called in as a witness in
Speaker 2: her husband's security clearance hearing, she was his greatest defender.
Speaker 2: She was total superhero, badass Mary Poppins coming in there.
Speaker 2: That's right, shutting it down. The Secretary, Verna Hobson said, quote,
Speaker 2: so many times I've seen her pull herself together when
Speaker 2: you didn't believe she possibly could. That's right, despite her
Speaker 2: being drunk or on pills or whatever, depressed, whatever was
Speaker 2: going on with her, when she needed to, she stood
Speaker 2: up and she would kick ass.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: Probably a lot of people underestimated her for that one
Speaker 2: hundred Oh she's just a drunk, she can't do nothing,
Speaker 2: and then she's like a han A second, ahem. First
Speaker 2: of all, let me tell you this, I.
Speaker 1: Mean pretty much she talked circles.
Speaker 2: Around the investigators. If you saw the movie, you saw
Speaker 2: this scene and Kitty impressed all of Robert's friends.
Speaker 1: With her performance, right, Like, even people who were like,
Speaker 1: she's the worst possible wife for them, I see her,
Speaker 1: she sucks, were like she was a tower of strength
Speaker 1: during this time. She was a better witness than Robert.
Speaker 1: Like they were like she was the one.
Speaker 2: And years later when Oppenheimer was given his medal and
Speaker 2: the government was like, oh, sorry, buddy, you know how
Speaker 2: feelings right, like, I know we sued you and investigating
Speaker 2: for trees and all this stuff water under the bridge across.
Speaker 2: Even then, she held a damn grudge until the end.
Speaker 2: She wasn't taken that bullshit apology, none of that.
Speaker 1: Which makes me think of earlier when the neighbor was like,
Speaker 1: she's fiercely loyal. She is like a little lion. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's exactly when she like, once she decides
Speaker 1: you're on her team, she will fight yeah for you
Speaker 1: until tooth and nail.
Speaker 2: Now, after Oppenheimer's security clearance was revoked, their daughter Tony
Speaker 2: was diagnosed with polio, so they moved to the US
Speaker 2: virgin Island of Saint John. While she recovered, Robert and
Speaker 2: Kitty ended up discovering a shared love of sailing. So
Speaker 2: they built a beach house there and they sailed together
Speaker 2: every summer. So they were like, we used to ride horses,
Speaker 2: now riding boat. Yeah, they're like, whatever, I just want
Speaker 2: to be on a particular, a very specialized landscape and
Speaker 2: whatever thing is best suited to travel that landscape.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm into it. I'm in it.
Speaker 2: Then you know. And then they go to Alaska and
Speaker 2: they're all on snowmobiles all the time, all right, Florida
Speaker 2: and they just can't they can't get over their shared
Speaker 2: love of fan boats.
Speaker 1: I was just like, they're in bathing suits at the
Speaker 1: grocery store. I don't know where you go with that.
Speaker 2: No, No, they're in Australia. They're hopping around in kangaroo pouches.
Speaker 1: Amazing. I would do that, just like I think a
Speaker 1: kangaroo would immediately kick my face in.
Speaker 2: I love a specialized former transportation in a particular and
Speaker 2: singular landscape. That's their thing.
Speaker 1: Well, that was their new thing. They had some lovely
Speaker 1: summers together, sure, but on January sixth, nineteen sixty seven,
Speaker 1: Robert Oppenheimer was diagnosed with inoperable cancer, and he died
Speaker 1: a little more than a month later on February eighteenth,
Speaker 1: So it did not take.
Speaker 2: Long from smoking, I'll add, Yeah, he was a heavy smoker. Yes, yes, was.
Speaker 2: I believe throat cancer right, think you're right.
Speaker 1: I think you're right, And per his wishes, Kitty had
Speaker 1: him cremated and she dropped his urn off the coast
Speaker 1: of Saint John, within sight of their beach house. In
Speaker 1: May of that year, their close friend Robert Serber, who
Speaker 1: we've mentioned several times, his wife died by suicide, very tragically.
Speaker 1: A few months after that, Robert Serber and Kitty Oppenheimer
Speaker 1: were living together. So she found her another man, I guess,
Speaker 1: and Kitty got him into sailing as well. In nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy two, they purchased a boat and they planned to
Speaker 1: sail through the Panama Canal to Japan. Wow, which sounds amazing.
Speaker 1: But Kitty had an embolism and she died on October
Speaker 1: twenty seventh, nineteen seventy two. Decadent Review points out in
Speaker 1: Atomic Love Story they kind of wrap it up by saying, oh,
Speaker 1: she found another man close to hand and married him,
Speaker 1: And Decadent Reviews kind of like, that's a little bit
Speaker 1: of a judgment that's being called about her. Nobody says
Speaker 1: after Kitty dies, Robert Serber takes up with a student
Speaker 1: like a young woman much younger than him, and Decadent
Speaker 1: Review points out, nobody says, oh, Robert Serber found the
Speaker 1: closest woman to hands. It has the same ye disparagement
Speaker 1: of him be being a companion as thinking for her.
Speaker 1: So just to keep in mind that everything we know
Speaker 1: about Kitty was said in a time when a woman
Speaker 1: who was very opinionated and outspoken was not a maybe
Speaker 1: a well respected woman. People didn't like women like that.
Speaker 1: So everything we read about her now we read it differently,
Speaker 1: I think, and so it's harder to kind of jive
Speaker 1: all these ideas of her together.
Speaker 2: I think everyone was so conditioned to think that was
Speaker 2: like abnormal behavior, like, oh, oh, she's telling people she
Speaker 2: doesn't like that when you do it, that's what's wrong with.
Speaker 1: Her, right, not a lady? And yeah, not quiet. It's
Speaker 1: not a die away myths, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: And that also may have contributed to her being difficult
Speaker 2: to like or being a brusque and mean person. You know.
Speaker 2: That's that sort of builds on itself. It's a little
Speaker 2: self fulfilling when you say, Oh, she's because she's opinionated.
Speaker 2: She's so nasty, right, And then she's like, well, then yeah,
Speaker 2: I am nasty because everyone thinks I'm so opinionated and
Speaker 2: they're cruel to me. So yeah, I think it's it's
Speaker 2: a vicious spiral to get stuck in.
Speaker 1: It is. So it just you decide you don't have
Speaker 1: to like Kitty or anything like that. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: I would have been friends with her, but it is
Speaker 1: something that's interesting to think about, just from hindsight, how
Speaker 1: we read people in their time versus now, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of stuff like that. But Robert and Kitty did
Speaker 1: have two children, and I was kind of curious about
Speaker 1: the kid.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: According to Nuclear Museum dot Com, Tony Oppenheimer never really
Speaker 1: got along with her mother. She had two unsuccessful marriages,
Speaker 1: and she was deeply depressed by her father's passing. She
Speaker 1: was also denied a security clearance to become a translator
Speaker 1: for the UN. Oh, and that kind of brought up
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma from her dad's security clearance hearing
Speaker 1: in fifty four. So she was really depress and lots
Speaker 1: of things going wrong for her. When she died by
Speaker 1: suicide at the beach House in Saint John in nineteen seventy.
Speaker 2: Seven, oh Man. Now, their son, Peter Oppenheimer, did not
Speaker 2: do well in school. He did really terribly, even though
Speaker 2: he was very smart, but he had a lot of anxiety,
Speaker 2: and he also got teased a lot about his dad,
Speaker 2: especially after the security hearing. Peter once wrote on the
Speaker 2: chalkboard in class that quote, certain people in the US
Speaker 2: government should go to hell. He's not wrong.
Speaker 1: Still then or now.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Apparently Robert Oppenheimer was told by a family friend
Speaker 2: that he should get some psychological help for his son
Speaker 2: for his anxiety when he was a kid. But Robert
Speaker 2: was offended at this idea because the friend, Pat Shirr,
Speaker 2: said that Oppenheimer quote could not have a son who
Speaker 2: needed help. I think that's one of those masculine pride issues.
Speaker 2: No son of mine needs psychological help. He's fine, He's
Speaker 2: a healthy What I.
Speaker 1: Find so fascinating about this is that Robert Oppenheimer was
Speaker 1: really interested in psychology. Yeah, gene Caatlog worked with kids
Speaker 1: in psychiatry. Ruth Tolman was a psychiatrist, a psychologist. He
Speaker 1: had a lot of respect for that field. But at
Speaker 1: this time period, of course, if you had to see
Speaker 1: a therapist, it meant you were a crazy part like
Speaker 1: you were beyond you were beyond crazy. Yeah, if you
Speaker 1: needed a therapist. So it's just like a really weird
Speaker 1: of I don't know weight to put on therapy at
Speaker 1: that time.
Speaker 2: He has an intellectual probably very much thought like, oh
Speaker 2: that's for lesser mortals maybe, yeah, you know if you yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean not just like you must be super crazy
Speaker 2: even need a therapist. But well, we're smart, we have
Speaker 2: control of our brains, right, because we're so well educated
Speaker 2: and well read, like we can reason our way out
Speaker 2: of which I know a lot of us still think.
Speaker 2: I thinking of myself today, why can't I just think
Speaker 2: my way out of this psychology problem? You know? And
Speaker 2: you can us. The whole idea is that it's not
Speaker 2: something you can you can't outsmart yourself. But I know,
Speaker 2: I'm sure that Robert Oppenheimer was very much like a
Speaker 2: mind over matter person.
Speaker 1: True.
Speaker 2: And if look, if you're my son, if you're a
Speaker 2: little Robert Oppenheimer and you're having trouble with your anxiety,
Speaker 2: here's the formula to get rid of it.
Speaker 1: Right well, and I wonder too again, time period wise
Speaker 1: they're still very Freudian in that all your problems are
Speaker 1: because of your childhood and your parents. So I wonder
Speaker 1: if how much of that was like, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: send my son to learn about why I was a
Speaker 1: shitty dad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I already know I'm a shitty dad. I
Speaker 2: don't need to pay you thirty thousand dollars to tell
Speaker 2: me that.
Speaker 1: I don't need some doctor to tell me I wasn't
Speaker 1: involved enough for my kid's life. So probably a number
Speaker 1: of reasons why that offended him. And but he was
Speaker 1: definitely like uh uh.
Speaker 2: Peter himself once said, quote, my father's true tragedy was
Speaker 2: not that he lost his clearance, but my mother's slow
Speaker 2: descent into alcoholism. Cut that word slow.
Speaker 1: Now, this lends a lot of credence to the drunken.
Speaker 1: Yes now. And I was going to say Robert Serber
Speaker 1: throughout this book American Prometheus, you know, he said Jean Tatlock,
Speaker 1: Robert Oppenheimer loved her the most, But of course at
Speaker 1: the time he had already been with his wife, Kitty,
Speaker 1: so did not make him feel better to say he
Speaker 1: loved Gene more than Kitty. So it's okay that I'm
Speaker 1: with Kitty. Oh, I wonder, I wonder, I don't know,
Speaker 1: speculation station. And then I also wonder if he said, oh,
Speaker 1: she was not drunk, she just took pills like everybody's so,
Speaker 1: but he was with her. You know, you have feelings
Speaker 1: for her, So he might have been trying to, you know,
Speaker 1: do a little bit of repair on her image or
Speaker 1: something out of love, out of affection of Kitty. But
Speaker 1: you know, he might not be a reliable narrator for.
Speaker 2: Who she is. Well. It could also be very similar
Speaker 2: to his son and psychiatry, where he's like, she doesn't know,
Speaker 2: she's not an alcoholic. We're better than that, right, you know,
Speaker 2: we're superior to that sort of base human issue that's
Speaker 2: lesser people have. She drinks a lot, but it's something
Speaker 2: that we're smart enough to get through, right, you know,
Speaker 2: she's fine.
Speaker 1: She's okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Right. But anyway, for the fact that Peter said, yeah,
Speaker 1: my mother had a slow descent into alcoholism. You know
Speaker 1: what cut slow, it won't slow.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also Tony apparently as a kid was constantly cleaning
Speaker 1: up after her mother. She would clean up her empty
Speaker 1: glasses and her beer bottle or whatever, and that's what
Speaker 1: kind of caused Tony's rift with her mom was that
Speaker 1: she started getting really upset about all that and not
Speaker 1: liking having to do all that and have it drunk
Speaker 1: mom or whatever. Right, So, because the kids say it,
Speaker 1: I kind of believe.
Speaker 2: It, Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1: It doesn't kind of believe that she is maybe a
Speaker 1: pretty bad alcoholm.
Speaker 2: But you know, when it comes to Peter, mostly wording
Speaker 2: to Nuclear Museum, he has quote been so positive about
Speaker 2: his parents that his children are often taken aback by
Speaker 2: media portrayals of Kittie Oppenheimer as cruel and unrelenting. So
Speaker 2: even even you know, her grandkids are like, come on, waiting,
Speaker 2: Dad only says the nicest things about you know, maybe
Speaker 2: she's Yeah, right now, Peter Oppenheimer is now a carpenter
Speaker 2: and he lives in total seclusion on Paracaliente. And so
Speaker 2: we say, lets nobody bother him. You know, he's like
Speaker 2: eighty something years old.
Speaker 1: Okay, leave that man alone.
Speaker 2: That man alone.
Speaker 1: Hashtag protect Peter.
Speaker 2: Yes, he's had it hard enough.
Speaker 1: I really think so. And that's what I wonder too
Speaker 1: for him, if he's like, all right, I have plenty
Speaker 1: to say about my parents, but everyone already said every
Speaker 1: bad and good thing about them. I don't need to
Speaker 1: add to it. I'm just gonna say they were great, fantastic,
Speaker 1: no fuck off, Like I don't want to talk to
Speaker 1: you or anyone else.
Speaker 2: Well for sure, for sure, I mean got to be
Speaker 2: so tough. He was the most talked about man in
Speaker 2: the world for a long time. Yes, Oppenheimer. And what
Speaker 2: a what a shadow to live under, right, right, I mean,
Speaker 2: no matter what?
Speaker 1: And so, And it makes me sad to think that
Speaker 1: Peter and Tony and I don't know if they were
Speaker 1: close or not, but it seems like they lived pretty
Speaker 1: separate lives, right, And it makes me sad to think
Speaker 1: that the only other person in the world who could
Speaker 1: understand what it was to be Robert Oppenheimer's kid. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they weren't close to you know what I'm saying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like that would bring you together, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. And who knows. Again, we don't know that
Speaker 1: much about them. They might have been fine together.
Speaker 2: But the other thing, and I'll say we've sort of deliberately,
Speaker 2: I think, not gotten into this conversation too much on
Speaker 2: this show. But the other thing that can't not be
Speaker 2: a huge part of their psychology as they become adults
Speaker 2: and move into the world. Is knowing that their father
Speaker 2: created the atomic bomb, you know, and shortly there and was,
Speaker 2: you know, in some linear fashion, directly responsible for the
Speaker 2: deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, horrific deaths and whatever.
Speaker 2: There's a whole lot more to say about the merits
Speaker 2: of that, the reasons for that, and of course Oppenheimer's involvement,
Speaker 2: why he was involved, and what he felt afterwards, et cetera,
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. So much to say that we
Speaker 2: don't need to get into today. I do recommend seeing
Speaker 2: the movie where there's a little more, just like, I
Speaker 2: don't know, it sort of even still leaves that to interpretation,
Speaker 2: but I'm thinking that can't not be part of their
Speaker 2: identity as well his kids. It has to be, Yeah,
Speaker 2: my dad's the guy who made the nuke.
Speaker 1: Especially after all of the photos of what happened in Japan, Yes,
Speaker 1: and what really that weapon wrought. Yeah, after you see that,
Speaker 1: how do you not have that connected to your father forever?
Speaker 1: I mean, or do you I don't know, you know,
Speaker 1: like because you know your dad is your dad. It's
Speaker 1: a very specific character in your life, So who he
Speaker 1: is to other people is kind of separate. You're like,
Speaker 1: who's that guy? You know what I mean. Like I've
Speaker 1: felt that way about my dad Sometimes I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: they know somebody different than I know. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, And that's just how it is. But you know,
Speaker 1: it must be really hard to reconcile just and I
Speaker 1: think that that was what was so great about the
Speaker 1: movie was kind of showing how much everybody wanted him
Speaker 1: to do this project. They wanted this, they asked him
Speaker 1: for it, they were begging him for it, they were
Speaker 1: pressuring him for it. But then once it happened, nobody
Speaker 1: really wanted to take responsibility to those consequences and be
Speaker 1: attached to that literal outcome. It really is. I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's really hard. You could we I mean, we could
Speaker 1: argue for hours and hours about whether or not it
Speaker 1: was right to make it. You know, it's a very
Speaker 1: fascinating topic and the movie will make you feel it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the truth. And speaking of the movie, mm hmmm,
Speaker 2: I think we've said everything that we can say at
Speaker 2: this point about Robert Oppenheimer's life and his three the
Speaker 2: main three women that he interacted with romantically that that
Speaker 2: really had an impact on him as a person. So
Speaker 2: I'm very excited that we get to uncover all that.
Speaker 1: I was so happy to do a deep dive into
Speaker 1: all their lives. They're very fascinating women. You can see
Speaker 1: why he was attracted to them. They were smart, and
Speaker 1: they had a quick wit about them, and you know,
Speaker 1: they could hold their own with Robert Oppenheimer. And I
Speaker 1: think that says a lot.
Speaker 2: And for all his problems, he wasn't a big piece
Speaker 2: of shit.
Speaker 1: No, not an overwhelming piece of shit or anything.
Speaker 2: I mean, they're talking about the time period.
Speaker 1: I know, Well that's I mean, there's some stories where
Speaker 1: like he invited like a young female student over to
Speaker 1: his house with Kitty at some point, and you know,
Speaker 1: he's trying to entrance this girl, so he's kind of
Speaker 1: saying cutting things about his wife. Oh so there's like
Speaker 1: some some anecdotes like that. It's nothing so insane that
Speaker 1: you'd be like, what a monster, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: But like it's just fifties husband shit, you know, like
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of I don't know. There was a
Speaker 1: little bit too with Robert where I still admire him
Speaker 1: in some ways, and I like that he was attracted
Speaker 1: to women who were very strong and smart and had
Speaker 1: a lot of personality and character. But he's also kind
Speaker 1: of one of those guys who's very attracted to that,
Speaker 1: and then once he's got them, he kind of wants
Speaker 1: to stamp out those things about them right right, because
Speaker 1: he's like, you're supposed to do something else now that
Speaker 1: you're married to me, or now that you're you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. Like I'm not trying to say he's like,
Speaker 1: don't work or something, but he just had an idea
Speaker 1: about how it was supposed to be, and he didn't
Speaker 1: have any problem with the way it worked. But so
Speaker 1: these ladies are fully oppressed by their lives and he's
Speaker 1: not really recognizing that.
Speaker 2: We've come across that a lot in our history shows
Speaker 2: sometimes where it's just, you know, we realize that these
Speaker 2: people were just as much victims of the culture, Like
Speaker 2: you know, he had it embedded in his head as
Speaker 2: well as like, well, well, once we're married, you know,
Speaker 2: men act a certain way, women act a certain way,
Speaker 2: you know, And it's that same just perpetual systemic issue
Speaker 2: that everyone's sort of born into. And I almost wish
Speaker 2: that if if I could go back in time and
Speaker 2: shake Robert Oppenheimer, if I could change one thing Robert
Speaker 2: Appenheimer did, it'd be to let him understand that he
Speaker 2: could be married to an intelligent woman who's his equal, right,
Speaker 2: you know, That'd be the one thing I would change
Speaker 2: about all the things in Robert Oppenheimer's life. Wow, Wow,
Speaker 2: Like I don't want to go step in on butterflies
Speaker 2: here so well.
Speaker 1: And I think too, this is such an interesting like
Speaker 1: this Berkeley enclave of like kind of rich, very intellectual,
Speaker 1: sort of superior kind of academics that are all fucking
Speaker 1: each other's wives. Yeah, you know, it's something very similar
Speaker 1: to Bella Park or you know, any of these other
Speaker 1: periods of time where it's like all these people are
Speaker 1: together and they kind of aren't. The marriage about is
Speaker 1: sort of you know with so it's even weirder that
Speaker 1: it's like you maybe view marriage is like who's a
Speaker 1: good partner for me, rather than whom I'm in love
Speaker 1: with I'm passionate about or something. I can get that anytime,
Speaker 1: but like who i'm as a good partner for me?
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure you ever really picked a good
Speaker 1: partner for him? Quote unquote, and people certainly had their
Speaker 1: opinions about Kitty being good or bad, you know, depending
Speaker 1: on which part of the story you're in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: As and sometimes she was kind of, you know, a
Speaker 1: bit of a distraction, so you know, but again it's
Speaker 1: you can't divorce that from how they felt about living
Speaker 1: their lives. I mean, fully, Gene committed suicide. I don't
Speaker 1: think you had that much to do with Robert, you know,
Speaker 1: it had a lot to do with everything else. You know,
Speaker 1: it was or she was murdered, obviously by a children.
Speaker 1: But I could tell it. I could see, I could
Speaker 1: see her being if she was already that depressed, if
Speaker 1: she was feeling that constrained, right, not that unusual. I mean,
Speaker 1: Kitty's drinking problem probably had a lot to do with
Speaker 1: that feeling too, which is another way to kill yourself, right,
Speaker 1: just more slowly. I don't know. Well, Ruth's the only
Speaker 1: one who fucking handle her shit. You got out, she did,
Speaker 1: all right, handled.
Speaker 2: It all right. Well, Okay, we talked about this story,
Speaker 2: and there's more to talk about, because of course we
Speaker 2: double featured, not on the same day, but the same weekend.
Speaker 2: We saw Barbie and Oppenheimer now we're going to take
Speaker 2: a little break and we're gonna come back and just
Speaker 2: the rest of the episode, we're going to talk about
Speaker 2: those two movies. Whenever. We'll start with Oppenheimer since we
Speaker 2: just learned his life, and then move on to Barbie.
Speaker 2: But we just had such a good time and I
Speaker 2: think such an interesting time watching both that we've got
Speaker 2: a lot to say.
Speaker 1: I know, right, Yeah, you could talk about those movies forever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's let's talk about those movies forever for
Speaker 2: right after this commercial break, we'll be right back, all right,
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show, everybody.
Speaker 1: You want to talk about Barbie and Oppenheimer. To the
Speaker 1: double feature of the.
Speaker 2: Year, the biggest double feature of the year, the two
Speaker 2: movies that saved the box office this month. There's always
Speaker 2: one that saves the box office every once in a while. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but let's we saw both. We saw Barbie first, then
Speaker 2: we saw Oppenheimer again. Seventy millimeters imax, big, huge, beautiful screen.
Speaker 2: Since we just learned about Oppenheimer, let's start there. Okay, Okay,
Speaker 2: first of all, I'll give you my Nolan background, because
Speaker 2: I know a lot of people fellas especially who start
Speaker 2: talking about Christopher Nolan movies can get a little into it,
Speaker 2: and I love Christopher nolan movies. I really do. The
Speaker 2: Prestige Right and Dunkirk are among two of my favorite
Speaker 2: of his movies. They're so good. I'll say it, you
Speaker 2: know what, I'll say it, Okay. I love Nolan's Batman
Speaker 2: trilogy and The Dark The Dark Knight is. It's great.
Speaker 2: It's perfectly great.
Speaker 1: I think we just got a thousand hang on, it's
Speaker 1: so good.
Speaker 2: I think when you pull Heath Fledger's performance out of
Speaker 2: it and just look at it, you know, there's a
Speaker 2: couple of messy parts, is all I'm saying. There's some
Speaker 2: stuff that doesn't make sense, and I think morally it's
Speaker 2: a little ambiguous and kind of wants to have its
Speaker 2: cake and eat it too. Personally, I think Batman Begins
Speaker 2: is my favorite of the trilogy. It's so good. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but we're not here to talk about Batman. We're here
Speaker 2: to talk about Oppenheimer. It's very Nolan in terms of
Speaker 2: its direction. It clips along. I love the way that
Speaker 2: his scenes don't end, they just bleed right into each other.
Speaker 2: And I think that's a big part because of the
Speaker 2: music doesn't cut at the end of a scene, it
Speaker 2: keeps playing right into the next one. It's almost montage.
Speaker 2: This for a historical biopic, This movie moves fast. And
Speaker 2: that's what I was saying earlier about the IMAX, where
Speaker 2: I'm like it was almost too big for me to
Speaker 2: really dial in on what was being said and the
Speaker 2: story that was happening. That I'm so glad we saw
Speaker 2: it there because it was beautiful, But I kind of
Speaker 2: want to watch it on my phone at a certain point, right,
Speaker 2: it's be like zero distractions, blinders on, like, let me
Speaker 2: only just look at this tiny little screen and hear
Speaker 2: what they're saying, right, yeah.
Speaker 1: Right, which he doesn't like you to hear what they're
Speaker 1: saying all the time given the sound mixing. Yeah, sometimes
Speaker 1: from an own film, I will say, I was he
Speaker 1: doesn't do biopicks. Really, is this his only a biob.
Speaker 2: This is his? I mean, yeah, I think it's only biopic.
Speaker 2: It's his as far as I know. Second non fiction
Speaker 2: after Dunkirk.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything else has been sort of sci fi or
Speaker 2: you know, some sort of pseudo fantasy like The Prestige
Speaker 2: or something which is kind of sci fi too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I would, Yeah, well I did really
Speaker 1: like that he did this one, particularly because of his
Speaker 1: little weird shit. He likes to play with time lines,
Speaker 1: yeah that, you know, he always does that in his
Speaker 1: movies in one way or another, either it's going backwards
Speaker 1: or whatever. And in this one, you know, he's kind
Speaker 1: of he's showing you the security hearing, He's showing you
Speaker 1: Lewis Strauss's confirmation hearing, right, and then also of course
Speaker 1: the Atomic project in the forties, so you're kind of
Speaker 1: flipping between all of these different timelines and different periods
Speaker 1: in this man's life. And what worked about it for
Speaker 1: me is that, you know, you're kind of starting off
Speaker 1: at the security hearing and they're all like, well, let's
Speaker 1: look at this piece of shit that made the atomic bomb,
Speaker 1: Like how you know you're real, you're this communist lover,
Speaker 1: and they're really mean to him in this security hearing.
Speaker 1: And then the next scene or as you say, the
Speaker 1: next kind of part of the montage that sort of
Speaker 1: bleeds directly into the next scene, somebody going, you're the
Speaker 1: man to do this, and you have to. You're going
Speaker 1: to save the world. You have to defeat Nazi Germany,
Speaker 1: you know, like they're at they are really laying on
Speaker 1: him for this project. So it's it kind of I
Speaker 1: think it really does a good job at putting you
Speaker 1: in his headspace, or his I guess Christopher Nolan's idea
Speaker 1: of what his headspace must have been, where he's like,
Speaker 1: I'm remembering very nearby in my mind, was y'all begging
Speaker 1: me to do this? And now you're really pissed at
Speaker 1: me for doing it? And I can't. I am too,
Speaker 1: you know, but like I can't. I don't know how
Speaker 1: to respond to this, and it's very frustrating and contradictory
Speaker 1: and very scapegoaty feeling. Yeah, which, of course it's exactly
Speaker 1: what he was. So I think he does a really
Speaker 1: good job of kind of putting you in that mind space,
Speaker 1: that psychological space totally.
Speaker 2: And I think that's kind of what the movie is
Speaker 2: mostly all about, because again we're not I don't think
Speaker 2: the movie is here to answer these big questions. Was
Speaker 2: it a good idea for the bomb? Was you know,
Speaker 2: was it the right thing to do in terms of
Speaker 2: you know, the argument? Of course, the largest argument is
Speaker 2: by dropping the two A bombs on Japan, we stopped
Speaker 2: a land war that would have claimed many millions of lives. So,
Speaker 2: but look where we are now, which of course is
Speaker 2: kind of sort of at the end of the movie too,
Speaker 2: what was the long term damage? Is that worth it?
Speaker 2: But instead of trying to answer those questions, the movies
Speaker 2: much more like, well, let's just look at this guy
Speaker 2: and what might it have been like to be him?
Speaker 2: What might it have been like to be the guy
Speaker 2: who did that? How do you sit with that? How
Speaker 2: do you live with that afterwards?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And then also at the same time, like you said,
Speaker 2: the very people who were begging you to do it
Speaker 2: have now turned around and said, how dare you sir?
Speaker 1: Oh could you have done that?
Speaker 2: What a monster? You must be crazy?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's fascinating to the element of security that
Speaker 1: you're talking about a little earlier with in terms of
Speaker 1: Russia was our ally, but everybody knew at some point
Speaker 1: this war is going to end and they're not going
Speaker 1: to be our ally anymore. Like there's it's not not
Speaker 1: a question, you know, And so all of that kind
Speaker 1: of hiding and fear from our own allies was a
Speaker 1: real problem. Of course, you still had German scientists involved.
Speaker 1: That was you know, literally I think he even says
Speaker 1: in the movie anti Semitism is our best bet because
Speaker 1: we can go get all these great German scientists that
Speaker 1: are Jewish that are not allowed to work for Hitler.
Speaker 1: Basically that Hitler's like, purge these guys. So he's like,
Speaker 1: let's go get them and make them work for us.
Speaker 2: Oppenheimer, yourself is Jewish. I don't think we mentioned that.
Speaker 1: That's right. He is Jewish. I only was a practicing no, no,
Speaker 1: it's very religious, but he was Jewish. But there was
Speaker 1: still a lot of feeling that like, oh, well, it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter if Hitler sucks, and you know he sucks,
Speaker 1: and you're very mad right now at your home still
Speaker 1: your home country, and there's going to be that feeling
Speaker 1: and you want to help your home country and not me.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: that kind of like again distrust, I mean, straight up restraint,
Speaker 1: you know, amongst all relationships. He had to be really careful.
Speaker 1: And it's kind of a foreign feeling to me because
Speaker 1: of the big war of our time, of course, is
Speaker 1: the War of Iraq, and you know, we could not
Speaker 1: be more distant from that war.
Speaker 2: There is no the propaganda of the Iraq war was
Speaker 2: don't even worry about it, guys, guys, we got this
Speaker 2: over here. You know, support the troops, uh huh, put
Speaker 2: the yellow ribbon on your car, buy stuff and yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's and that's all you need to do, and
Speaker 2: not this the World War two right mentality of we're
Speaker 2: all in this together sacrifice. You know you're gonna feel
Speaker 2: it at home when we go off to war and
Speaker 2: you dealing with that is you supporting your country? Right?
Speaker 2: So different or even.
Speaker 1: The sense of even you know, you're in the middle
Speaker 1: of no, I don't know, you live in a small
Speaker 1: town in Maryland or something, but people are still like
Speaker 1: loose lips sink ships. Like you can't be talking about
Speaker 1: stuff you hear on the news, right because you don't
Speaker 1: know who you're talking to and who they're going to
Speaker 1: tell and what they're going to say. And it was
Speaker 1: just a lot of this like fear of spies listening.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's just such a I had a hero,
Speaker 1: I guess because we already had computers and they're like
Speaker 1: everybody everything, I don't have to tap your phone or whatever.
Speaker 1: You're telling me everything through like there whatever. But anyway,
Speaker 1: it's just so weird to think about. It was such
Speaker 1: a different paranoid such a paranoid time, and you get
Speaker 1: caught up in that shit and it changes your behavior
Speaker 1: a lot.
Speaker 2: That was one of the things that was most interesting
Speaker 2: about it to me. You know, I as the movie's
Speaker 2: coming closer to coming out, all these little YouTube videos
Speaker 2: are popping up. Is like the life of Robert Oppenheimer.
Speaker 2: Here's why Oppenheimer's interesting, Here's what you need to know.
Speaker 2: And I literally knew practically nothing about him and wanted
Speaker 2: to go into the movie with that. Yeah, it was
Speaker 2: like the movie I want to be totally surprised by
Speaker 2: everything that happens here, and I was, and maybe had
Speaker 2: hard time following some parts of it where I just
Speaker 2: had to double back on the conversations. But it was
Speaker 2: so interesting to see that paranoia and how it affected everyone,
Speaker 2: and the eggshells everybody's on all the time, and the
Speaker 2: challenges of not just you know, a they've got these
Speaker 2: time limits, which I also didn't know either. We're it
Speaker 2: was like the space race, like Russia's actually further ahead.
Speaker 2: They've done things we haven't done yet, and we're going
Speaker 2: to watch that and copy it and try and leapfrog
Speaker 2: what their work that that's exactly what happened with the
Speaker 2: space race. Russia was in space first, yeah, and we
Speaker 2: leapfrog that to get to the moon. So that was
Speaker 2: really fascinating to me. But then on top of that,
Speaker 2: just the fact that while you're under this immense pressure,
Speaker 2: you can't talk to anyone, you can't call your friends,
Speaker 2: you can't even you have to live in our fake
Speaker 2: little town we built. Just a nightmare I think to
Speaker 2: be living in that time.
Speaker 1: Well, and like when we see this in the movie,
Speaker 1: a lot of complaints amongst the scientists who feel that
Speaker 1: knowledge is global and they shouldn't have to hide their
Speaker 1: discoveries from their Russian or German or Swiss.
Speaker 2: Or whatever exactly.
Speaker 1: Personally, respect this person I ranged from them. I used
Speaker 1: their equations in my shit or whatever, and so they
Speaker 1: felt very strongly that like you should be I should
Speaker 1: be able to share these things. And in addition to that,
Speaker 1: they're not sharing with me. So I'm behind maybe what
Speaker 1: they know, and that's putting me at a disadvantage of
Speaker 1: my science, just pure science. I'm angry that I'm not
Speaker 1: able to get the resources that I'm out there and
Speaker 1: exchange these thoughts with these other brilliant people where I
Speaker 1: know in these discussions we're both gonna see things or
Speaker 1: come up with things that we wouldn't have come up
Speaker 1: with on our own.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: So it's like slowing me down. I feel really frustrated,
Speaker 1: you know. But it was also a bit of a
Speaker 1: hint when scientific community stopped sharing nuclear information. It was
Speaker 1: a hint to every security department worldwide that oh, they're
Speaker 1: working on a bomb. They're stopped sharing. Now I know
Speaker 1: they're working on that shit. Ye, Like it was a clue,
Speaker 1: so you had to be really careful.
Speaker 2: Oh if we ever come back from that, I mean,
Speaker 2: international community, I don't know what it was like before,
Speaker 2: but it still feels like the same thing now, Like, no,
Speaker 2: you can't trust anybody or sharing anything with anyone else.
Speaker 2: I know, we're all just people trying to live on
Speaker 2: this stupid spinning marbled together. But that person slightly different
Speaker 2: than me, so you know that means they're gonna stab
Speaker 2: me in the back the first chance they get. Is
Speaker 2: wild that kind of distrust, and you see that in
Speaker 2: the movie as well. Yeah, I was also really fascinated
Speaker 2: by that that there was people saying, like you said,
Speaker 2: we've got to share information with each other. In fact,
Speaker 2: a lot of people, of course, thought the whole point
Speaker 2: of the A bomb is once they know we've built it,
Speaker 2: they'll stop. There's no more war because who would get involved.
Speaker 2: Was I'm not even gonna build one once you have one,
Speaker 2: which is obviously a little arrogant to think, and of
Speaker 2: course has time and again proven untrue. There's what doctor
Speaker 2: Seus's butter battle book, right, there is no weapon big
Speaker 2: enough to stop everyone from using weapons.
Speaker 1: Right, or decide we don't want one of our own. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you shouldn't get to press that button that destroys everything.
Speaker 1: I get to press that button.
Speaker 2: Yep, you know it's a pain in the ass. I
Speaker 2: would love to talk about performances in this movie because
Speaker 2: I think at the center of it all is the
Speaker 2: cast and and you know what, I'll say it also,
Speaker 2: I'll say this, I was a fan of Killian Murphy
Speaker 2: before it was cool. Oh look, I'm.
Speaker 1: Just saying, taste maker Eli in.
Speaker 2: The House twenty eight days later comes out, Right, there's
Speaker 2: gonna be people out there who like, yeah, he was
Speaker 2: in stuff before that, you lose her. But twenty of
Speaker 2: days later came out. I was obsessed with that movie.
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm not into zombie movies, even though
Speaker 2: twenty eight Days Later is not a zombie movie. Also, yeah,
Speaker 2: because they don't die. It's not about resor, it's not
Speaker 2: about the living dead. In twenty eight Days Later, it's
Speaker 2: just a rage virus. Oh yeah, so technically if I
Speaker 2: push my glasses up on my nose here, it's not
Speaker 2: a zombie movie. But anyway, I was like, this guy
Speaker 2: is amazing and I want to watch everything that he's in. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And at the time, I was like, uh, have you
Speaker 2: guys heard of silly and Murphy because he's so cool,
Speaker 2: and then learned, like five years later, that's pronounced Killian but.
Speaker 1: Silly old Murphy, silly old Murphy.
Speaker 2: Here's a little facto weight for you. All that blew
Speaker 2: my damn mind. Even as a Killian Murphy fan, Robert
Speaker 2: Oppenheimer was tall. Yeah, I have always thought that Killian
Speaker 2: Murphy was tall and slim. That man is five foot seven,
Speaker 2: and there's nothing wrong with that. But he has a
Speaker 2: very towering presence and he's actually shorter than my short
Speaker 2: ass nine so short King Killian Murphy, kill Murphy. Yeah, incredible,
Speaker 2: that's probably the most mind blowing. That's probably the most
Speaker 2: explosive piece of information that I got out of.
Speaker 1: Oppenheimer, the most important thing I learned.
Speaker 2: Because there's times where they shoot it. We talked about this.
Speaker 2: There's times where they shoot it and he looks like
Speaker 2: the tallest guy in the room, and there's times where
Speaker 2: they shoot it and he looks like everyone is like
Speaker 2: imposing on him and he's surrounded by giants.
Speaker 1: Beautifully done, so good, because you it's again, it's so much.
Speaker 1: I think really he was really trying to put us
Speaker 1: in his brain, his perspective. It's not meant to be
Speaker 1: an overarching perspective of nuclear whatever, whatever. It's literally this
Speaker 1: guy and what he thought and felt during the time
Speaker 1: and these various times in his life. And I thought
Speaker 1: that that camera work worked beautifully for that, because when
Speaker 1: he felt confident, he was the biggest guy in the room,
Speaker 1: and when he felt like he was getting piled on,
Speaker 1: he was the smallest. It was beautifully beautifully shown in
Speaker 1: that way. And I will say I thought Killian Murphy
Speaker 1: and Christopher Nolan did something that's very hard to do
Speaker 1: with a biopic in that they did not make him
Speaker 1: a hero or a villain. Yeah, I really, I think
Speaker 1: that's so hard to do. If Usually with a biopick,
Speaker 1: you kind of pick a side and you're like, I've
Speaker 1: decided that this person's the protagonist, so anyway they're the
Speaker 1: hero and everything they did was right and fine and whatever,
Speaker 1: and like you might have feelings, but anyway, in this
Speaker 1: movie they were right to do it, and it's all great.
Speaker 1: But in this case, I really I think they left it.
Speaker 1: I think they both felt ambivalent about it in a way,
Speaker 1: and they were like, this was just a human guy
Speaker 1: who was in the middle of history and happened to
Speaker 1: be the finger of destiny was placed on him. Like
Speaker 1: it didn't have to be him. It was weird that
Speaker 1: it was him. People were like General Groves chose probably
Speaker 1: the worst guy in the world for it because they
Speaker 1: had all these communist ties and he was a lefty
Speaker 1: and he you know, like he wasn't the most brilliant
Speaker 1: nuclear scientist there was.
Speaker 2: Good at maths.
Speaker 1: He's terrible at math, he was bad at lab. He's
Speaker 1: a theorist.
Speaker 2: He's a theorist.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so a lot of people were like, that's
Speaker 1: a weird choice. But as you said, he was like
Speaker 1: this guy's magnetic. People are going to follow him, and
Speaker 1: that's what I need. And in the movie, Oppenheimer says,
Speaker 1: I think you chose me because of my lefty association,
Speaker 1: so you can control me. And I don't think he
Speaker 1: was wrong about that either. I'm sure he saw it
Speaker 1: as leverage right times. But anyway, I thought they both
Speaker 1: did that really well in the writing and the performance
Speaker 1: of kind of being like, this is a complicated individual.
Speaker 1: He's not always right and he's not always wrong. He's
Speaker 1: not a villain and he's not a hero. He was
Speaker 1: a guy. You know, he's just a guy. And I
Speaker 1: think that's really hard to do.
Speaker 2: That's so interesting by that, Yeah, that you say that.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about actors often who play, you know, wicked
Speaker 2: characters in some way, shape or form. And the thing
Speaker 2: you say is, well, I can't think they're evil. I
Speaker 2: have to think that. I have to think like they do,
Speaker 2: that my behavior is justified and I take these actions
Speaker 2: because I think they're right. So I have to think
Speaker 2: of myself as the hero or the good guy or something.
Speaker 2: But this is Killian Murphy is playing a guy who
Speaker 2: literally is questioning his own morals. Yes, am I a villain?
Speaker 2: Am I a horrible person? Or am I or did
Speaker 2: I do the right thing? I'm literally hearing it from
Speaker 2: all sides, and I don't know myself. So I think
Speaker 2: that's where that comes from in this movie, where it
Speaker 2: is able to balance that so well, is probably both
Speaker 2: of them not approaching this character as someone who thinks
Speaker 2: he's doing the right thing, but quite the opposite of
Speaker 2: a character who has absolutely no idea if he's done
Speaker 2: the right thing or not right.
Speaker 1: And also beautifully shot was his congratulations everyone, it works
Speaker 1: and we dropped the bomb and it worked, and he
Speaker 1: had to give this speech and I thought that was
Speaker 1: really well done because he had such a and of
Speaker 1: course he had his own personal like, fuck, I didn't
Speaker 1: didn't know it was going to kill this many people.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize, you know, exactly the weight or the destruction,
Speaker 1: the destructive power it would have. I knew it would
Speaker 1: be big, but more people than I thought.
Speaker 2: Whatever.
Speaker 1: Also, he's looking at people who spent years with him
Speaker 1: building this bomb, and they're proud of their achievement and
Speaker 1: they should be proud of it, and he is proud
Speaker 1: of it, and he's like, I just wish we could
Speaker 1: have dropped it on the Nazis, because that's who the
Speaker 1: fuck I was working against. I didn't gonna give a
Speaker 1: shit about Japan, you know, so anyway, it was just
Speaker 1: really well done to show him kind of being like
Speaker 1: jovial and excited and his performance like great job. Everybody
Speaker 1: did it, like ooh, patch yourself on the bag. We
Speaker 1: you know, it's not just about me, it's about you.
Speaker 1: Everybody's so great whatever. And in his mind he is
Speaker 1: freaking out like he is he is seeing the effects
Speaker 1: of this bomb and and like not knowing, am I
Speaker 1: proud of this?
Speaker 2: Is this good?
Speaker 1: I don't know anymore?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that it's I want to
Speaker 2: get back to performances. But just you saying that makes
Speaker 2: me think about this element of the movie of we
Speaker 2: should I wish we'd dropped it on the Nazis. Yeah, right,
Speaker 2: I think very deliberately in this movie, the word Japan
Speaker 2: never comes up once until they say it's the target
Speaker 2: for the bomb. And I think that must have been
Speaker 2: so true of the mentality at the time, like, wait, Japan,
Speaker 2: what I thought the whole thing was the Nazis. That's
Speaker 2: kind of what we've been thinking on. But I think
Speaker 2: that the scientists, Themselve Oppenheimer himself and all his team.
Speaker 2: At this point, they're so seduced by their own creation,
Speaker 2: right that they that they you get this to this
Speaker 2: point where you're like, I just have to see if
Speaker 2: I did it. I just have to know if we
Speaker 2: succeeded and if it works, and I just have I
Speaker 2: built the toy, now I have to use it, right
Speaker 2: And so even they are in the moment excited about like,
Speaker 2: we'll just drop it somewhere, and so the US has
Speaker 2: And again there's a whole lot of history here to
Speaker 2: unpack in terms of would Japan. A lot of a
Speaker 2: lot of strategists say Japan never would have surrendered.
Speaker 1: I also heard that they sued for peace before.
Speaker 2: This dropped exactly obviously a big part of the movie too,
Speaker 2: But but they so badly wanted to use it because
Speaker 2: they could. And so this idea of Japan not even
Speaker 2: coming up until they're at target, I think really speaks
Speaker 2: to I sort of said this, but the mentality at
Speaker 2: the time of just oh crap, the Nazis are surrendering. Well,
Speaker 2: we got to do this somewhere, we got to show
Speaker 2: the world, we got to show Russia was a big
Speaker 2: part of it what we can do, And they said,
Speaker 2: the first bomb is to show them we can do it.
Speaker 2: The second bomb is to show them that we can
Speaker 2: keep doing it. Horrible, horrible, And.
Speaker 1: I guess they didn't really know the effects that the
Speaker 1: radiation would have, the extra deaths that happened from the radiation,
Speaker 1: or maybe they did.
Speaker 2: Well, we had kitties studying the effects of radiation on
Speaker 2: the blood, and I know that there were there was
Speaker 2: an understanding that radiation was deadly afterwards too, but I
Speaker 2: don't know. And I mean what they were how many
Speaker 2: miles away from the test site.
Speaker 1: Oppenheimer and the scientists were twenty.
Speaker 2: Miles twenty miles away. They knew there was not just
Speaker 2: the blast to worry about, but fallow up other shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, very true. And we'll throw out there that
Speaker 1: there are a lot of indigenous and people of Native
Speaker 1: of New Mexico who are called down windows downwind of
Speaker 1: the Trinity Test and have radiation poisoning from it, and
Speaker 1: they have not been recompensed by the government in any way.
Speaker 1: So they have still to this day within their community,
Speaker 1: birth defects, all kinds of crazy shit from Trinity test itself.
Speaker 1: So there's not only in Japan was their fallout from
Speaker 1: Robert Oppenheimer's and his team's invention, but also right here
Speaker 1: in America and people are still trying to get justice
Speaker 1: for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, the movie does not go into this thing,
Speaker 2: much like it doesn't go to the women of his life.
Speaker 2: And there's a degree to which I forgive the movie
Speaker 2: for that, because it is a singularly focused story. And
Speaker 2: I don't want Christopher Nolan to be the one who
Speaker 2: comes out and says, you know, let me tell you
Speaker 2: about what happened to the Native Americans out here, you know,
Speaker 2: like it's not necessarily he's not going to necessarily do
Speaker 2: a good job at that. True, he's telling the Oppenheimer's story.
Speaker 2: I think the issue is that we're going to keep
Speaker 2: seeing movies like Oppenheimer. Who's gonna make one that shows
Speaker 2: us about the Downwinders or about these three women? You
Speaker 2: know that that just should also exist in tandem, and
Speaker 2: then we've got the full picture.
Speaker 1: Right I Speaking of performances, I will say everyone everyone says,
Speaker 1: and everyone knows Christopher Nolan quote doesn't do women. He's
Speaker 1: not great at writing women, not he very rarely has
Speaker 1: them in his movies. If they're there, they're very they're
Speaker 1: very limited.
Speaker 2: It's often like a very important character with very little
Speaker 2: screen time. They're like their significance to the heroes matters
Speaker 2: so much. They're the only ones with any sense who
Speaker 2: know what's going on, Like I'm thinking of Scarlett Johanson
Speaker 2: and The Prestige for example, right, But at the same time,
Speaker 2: the story is not revolve around them.
Speaker 1: I think the criticism is that all his female characters
Speaker 1: only exist in relation to the men what they're doing.
Speaker 1: And in the same in Oppenheimer, Yah, Jean's whole character
Speaker 1: is that she was a I mean this and that
Speaker 1: was a problem for him. You know Kitty's whole characters.
Speaker 1: She's drunk and that's a problem for him. You know
Speaker 1: Rufe's whole characters. I was fucking her and that was it, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, there was there however they related to him,
Speaker 1: that was it. They had no life outside of it.
Speaker 1: And again, this is a very focused movie, and it
Speaker 1: makes sense in a way to say, well, how did
Speaker 1: they what was their thing with him? Specifically because I
Speaker 1: don't have time to go follow Jean through her regular
Speaker 1: daily routine while I'm trying to tell you about the
Speaker 1: nuclear bomb. You know, I totally totally get that. It's
Speaker 1: just I think what's strange in this film is that
Speaker 1: he's clearly trying to address it a little bit. He
Speaker 1: got two amazing actresses, Florence Pugh and Emily Blunt to
Speaker 1: play these women, and there's some scenes you know, he tried,
Speaker 1: like you tried, but it's still so lacking. And particularly
Speaker 1: Florence Pugh is such a phenomenal actress, and I felt
Speaker 1: like she didn't really have that much to do with Jean.
Speaker 1: Jean's scenes seemed to be the same thing each time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and have a lot of levels and sort of the
Speaker 1: same with kitties. She's kind of the same every scene.
Speaker 1: She was drunk and mad in every scene, and so
Speaker 1: it was just kind of where was the softness. I
Speaker 1: wanted to see what he fell in love with, but
Speaker 1: they liked to know him or you know, anything that
Speaker 1: made them more of a person instead of this is
Speaker 1: who he This is just the part they had to
Speaker 1: play in his life to make him who he was, Yeah,
Speaker 1: instead of this is a full person who affected him.
Speaker 2: You know, we have long known that me and Emily
Speaker 2: Blunt have a very special thing. I know, you and
Speaker 2: I know this. I'm pretty sure John Krasinski knows about it.
Speaker 2: But Emily Blunt and I have a very special thing
Speaker 2: between us, not unlike Oppenheimer and maybe Gene Or it's
Speaker 2: like this, we're both married, we're both happily with our
Speaker 2: but you know, but we can't not be in each
Speaker 2: other's lives. So a big point being I'm a big
Speaker 2: Emily Blunt fan. I think she's very talented, and I
Speaker 2: think she was very good in this movie. But at
Speaker 2: the same time, I did feel in the moment, and
Speaker 2: I do want to see it again and re examine this,
Speaker 2: but I felt in the moment like her shutting down
Speaker 2: the interview, her rob what's his name, the the Jason
Speaker 2: Clark's character, Yes, the security hearing, and her like absolutely
Speaker 2: destroying him was so well delivered. She did such a
Speaker 2: good job in that scene, and yet it felt unearned
Speaker 2: because like he comes, what does Oppenheimer say is like
Speaker 2: or is said about her like she's always.
Speaker 1: He says what Verna Hobson says, Basically, he's like, you
Speaker 1: don't know our relationship. She's my wife. We've been through
Speaker 1: fire together, been through fire, and she can pull herself
Speaker 1: together when you wouldn't think she could, but.
Speaker 2: Specifically that part We've been through fire together. In the moment,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, have you we haven't really seen that.
Speaker 2: There's that one scene where he was sad about Jeane's
Speaker 2: suicide and she walks up to him and says, play
Speaker 2: yourself together. And that's even what they flashed back to
Speaker 2: as he's saying we've been through fire together. And I
Speaker 2: just felt like the movie lacked kind of, like you said,
Speaker 2: where is the passion in their relationship that led to
Speaker 2: this moment where she said, I'm gonna put my flask
Speaker 2: down and destroy all you guys for having the audacity
Speaker 2: to come after my man. He was one of the
Speaker 2: best people I know. Like we see a few scenes
Speaker 2: of her saying we need to fight harder, we need
Speaker 2: to fight harder. But I was so taken aback by
Speaker 2: that sudden turn from her that I felt like it
Speaker 2: was kind of out of nowhere, as opposed to being suggested,
Speaker 2: suggested and then yes and then revealed.
Speaker 1: I feel like it was she was so scornful and
Speaker 1: almost contemptuous of him in those moments where we need
Speaker 1: to fight, we need to fight. Yeah, that it was
Speaker 1: It didn't read as you know, we're just a different
Speaker 1: personality from each other, and I'm angry on your behalf.
Speaker 1: It was like, I'm angry at you. And a lot
Speaker 1: of the movie was her being angry at him. She's mad,
Speaker 1: she has a kid, she's mad, she don't know about this,
Speaker 1: she's mad about even the thing about pull yourself together,
Speaker 1: Like I guess that was something he needed from her,
Speaker 1: was for her to be that kind of person. It's like, hey,
Speaker 1: I get it, you're sad, but you need to get
Speaker 1: it together. You're in the middle of something right now.
Speaker 1: But it was presented as look at this shrew, like
Speaker 1: like every time you saw her, she was kind of
Speaker 1: a shrew, and she was just sort of yelling and
Speaker 1: I don't know, distracting and not a good presence. And
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't see what makes her such
Speaker 1: a great partner for him. I don't understand. And as
Speaker 1: you say, when she does end up being a bad ass,
Speaker 1: she's like, where did that even come from? So, you know,
Speaker 1: it was it was a little uneven in those ways.
Speaker 1: I do wish that maybe even in the scene where
Speaker 1: they got together, there was a little more anything there.
Speaker 1: I don't know, And then they just show them like
Speaker 1: riding horses, and I guess that's supposed to be the
Speaker 1: good times. Though they're pretty, but they don't give you
Speaker 1: much character development. So yes, although as you say, I
Speaker 1: did love how she performed that security hearing scene was
Speaker 1: really beautifully done. And I will say too, learning that
Speaker 1: Kitty did hold a grudge for the rest of her
Speaker 1: life against every single person who said a damn thing
Speaker 1: against him, including Edward Teller. When he gets his medal,
Speaker 1: he goes to shake his hand and Robert's like, sure,
Speaker 1: no hard feelings, but Emily was sitting there fucking glaring, no,
Speaker 1: no daggers, and that's clearly very true to life. She
Speaker 1: was straight up what to see Edward and like, why
Speaker 1: don't you make shit very dead?
Speaker 2: Yeah? You said that. The robbers like, how dare you?
Speaker 2: What do you mean you shook his hand? Yes, the
Speaker 2: guy just sold you out right. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that was very well done. And I think Emily
Speaker 1: Blunt said she had a she deeply felt for this
Speaker 1: woman who was very sad and lonely. Yeah, and she
Speaker 1: drank a lot to address those feelings and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: So well, I think I think, you know, obviously we
Speaker 2: can say that Nolan, it's not his strongest storytelling element, right,
Speaker 2: romances and women and how they women and anything about.
Speaker 1: Them, anything about that.
Speaker 2: And on top of that, this is an incredibly complicated
Speaker 2: person who made for an incredibly complicated character. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: these things that we're not seeing, not getting, you know,
Speaker 2: might just be wrapped up in her complications. I do
Speaker 2: agree that there's probably some some things in the movie
Speaker 2: that could have established something that had a better payoff
Speaker 2: in that moment. But but yeah, it's real hard to
Speaker 2: encapsulate somebody like Kitty without her own damn movie, which
Speaker 2: quite frankly, give me that Emily Blunt spin off, and
Speaker 2: I'm first, I'll watch, I'll do the seventy millimeters IMAX thing.
Speaker 1: I would do that there was bigger.
Speaker 2: Emily Blunt, the better.
Speaker 1: I've always said, there is actually a fun story about
Speaker 1: Kitty on Los Alamos, where she fucking was like, why
Speaker 1: don't you eat shit with your security protocol, got in
Speaker 1: the car, drove away from Los Alamos and went to
Speaker 1: a hotel bar for the nice So there were times
Speaker 1: Juice was like, why don't you just eat my dirt?
Speaker 1: So she actually might be kind of a fun movie actually,
Speaker 1: if you really really wanted to try to pull down
Speaker 1: this character who is vivacious and lively and sharp tongued,
Speaker 1: like a witty person can often be very sharp, as
Speaker 1: we've learned with like Oscar Wild example, he was kind
Speaker 1: of a bitch like but he was, but that's what
Speaker 1: was witty. He was a bitchy, witty guy. So when
Speaker 1: he said to me, like, oh, that shit was funny,
Speaker 1: but it was totally a roaster. She might have been
Speaker 1: a roaster, you know, in that way. But you don't
Speaker 1: appreciate a female to roast the same way you appreciate
Speaker 1: a male to roast, you know what I'm saying, as
Speaker 1: little as you appreciate a male roast in you, you
Speaker 1: know you definitely, women are supposed to be nice and kind, right,
Speaker 1: so and and whatever. So at any rate, fantastic performances
Speaker 1: even with very little to work with, We'll say, because again,
Speaker 1: Florence Pew, I.
Speaker 2: Mean, forget, she's doing incredible things, very magnetic. I want.
Speaker 2: I've I've there's been a I've had my foot on
Speaker 2: the break with Florence Pew like ready to tap it,
Speaker 2: you know, ever since she sort of popped up. But
Speaker 2: I've been like, oh, she's you know, the new hunt thing. Well,
Speaker 2: we'll see. I'm always skeptical of public opinion because I
Speaker 2: just think everyone's wrong. But me so I don't know
Speaker 2: what I'm getting at here. Point is she has consistently
Speaker 2: amazed me and checked my hesitations numerous times because she's
Speaker 2: always good. She is. She's always very.
Speaker 1: Good killer And as you said, Kelly and Murphy, amazing,
Speaker 1: just did a fantastic job.
Speaker 2: I want to rush to our Barberie review so real quick,
Speaker 2: just let's just we've talked about the movie a lot.
Speaker 2: Let's just hammer down a couple performances real quick. Obviously
Speaker 2: we talked about the Big three, but let's talk Robert
Speaker 2: johniy Junior coming in and reminding us why he's one
Speaker 2: of the greats.
Speaker 1: Just Healy crushed it fantastic.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: There are so many moments where he just did something
Speaker 1: so subtle, Oh my god, just something so little, and
Speaker 1: I was like, you just gave me so much in
Speaker 1: that little moment, and I admire it so much, Like
Speaker 1: when he said, oh, you were just a lowly shoe salesman,
Speaker 1: and Lewis Draus goes just as two salesman and he's
Speaker 1: smiling but his eyes are fucking furious. He just does it.
Speaker 1: It's it's such a little moment, but it was so good,
Speaker 1: and there's few of those.
Speaker 2: The way he pronounces his plosives in that movie, like
Speaker 2: his p's and b's were diff I know Robert Downey
Speaker 2: Junior's voice pretty well after twelve years of MCU and
Speaker 2: and he was speaking just this with this subtle difference.
Speaker 2: That was just like, you're embodying a different person right now.
Speaker 2: And I was so amazed by that.
Speaker 1: Yes, he was really great.
Speaker 2: And may I say, where the hell has Josh Hartnett
Speaker 2: been all this time?
Speaker 1: I was so excited. And he looks different. He looks
Speaker 1: he looks great me, but he looks different than when
Speaker 1: he was pretty boy, young, younger or whatever. But he
Speaker 1: I thought he did a fantastic so.
Speaker 2: Good, so good. I was just like, I never knew
Speaker 2: what to think about him. He's all over the place.
Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, he's bestie, he's he's right there
Speaker 2: with you. Wait a minute, no, this guy's a fascist.
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, no, he's got your back. But it
Speaker 2: was just all over the place in a really good way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was his character was apparently he was really
Speaker 1: against union organizing. Yeah, so that's what was his big problem. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But and of course communa he was surely communist kind
Speaker 1: of guy. But but I didn't really get the impression
Speaker 1: from the movie that he had like a long list
Speaker 1: of grievances and would be spreading rumors about Oppenheimer and stuff.
Speaker 1: I was kind of a surprise to see about Ernest
Speaker 1: Lawrence in the research.
Speaker 2: I did kind of get that impression a little bit.
Speaker 2: I did. Yeah, I felt like he not unlike Straws,
Speaker 2: was like he was a little more side by side
Speaker 2: with Oppenheimer so much that he sort of had to
Speaker 2: be had had a positive working relationship with him. But
Speaker 2: it felt like there was something in there that was like, God,
Speaker 2: but oh, I just can't wait to punch this guy
Speaker 2: in the face. Though too like he was. I think
Speaker 2: he was a little jealous of Oppenheimer. I think he
Speaker 2: was resentful of his success, despite the fact that he
Speaker 2: was like, but you're the You're I'm meeting with government
Speaker 2: people about what a problem you are, and they gave
Speaker 2: you the Manhattan Project. Yeah, so I thought there was
Speaker 2: I picked up elements of that. Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1: Well, anyway, Josh Hartnett, great.
Speaker 2: Job, great job, Josh Hark.
Speaker 1: I think at one point you leaned over and you're like,
Speaker 1: every white man with a SAG card is in this movie,
Speaker 1: and that is so true.
Speaker 2: And the rest of SAG was next door working on Barbie.
Speaker 2: Which brings us to the other movie we saw this
Speaker 2: past weekend. And we will take our last break for
Speaker 2: this episode, and we'll come back right after this and
Speaker 2: talk all about Greta Gerwigg's incredibly pink movie.
Speaker 1: Barbie, the pinkest movie ever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And of course goes to that saying
Speaker 2: we're talking about the movie here is spoiler alerg rightpoilers. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we'll be right.
Speaker 1: Hi. Barbie's welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2: Perfect. Okay, So Barbie opening night, we went Thursday with
Speaker 2: a bunch of friends because they we thought we weren't
Speaker 2: going to get in because the whole weekend was sold out,
Speaker 2: and then they added a show time. Yay, we managed
Speaker 2: to squeeze in Thursday night.
Speaker 1: All right, And I'm gonna tell y'all, I'm a fan
Speaker 1: of Barbie. I love Barbie's, loved plan with Barbie's had
Speaker 1: a billion Barbies, loved them. I still have them in
Speaker 1: my parents' house. They're always asked me to come get them.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it. Their house is bigger
Speaker 1: than mine and they have more storage sorry sorry, more
Speaker 1: storage space over there. I'll try one day, but y'all
Speaker 1: are gonna hold on. But anyway, so I was like
Speaker 1: already sold on the Barbie Movie. Like I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to the Barbie Movie. So I'm very happy
Speaker 1: we got to see it opening night, and it was
Speaker 1: It's such an interesting double feature because, you know, one hand,
Speaker 1: you have this dark movie, historic movie with basically nothing
Speaker 1: but men in it doing man thing being men. And
Speaker 1: then you have this movie with so many women in it,
Speaker 1: and it's women being women and they're on top of
Speaker 1: them there in the center of the story and the
Speaker 1: center of the world, and they're the center of everything.
Speaker 1: So it was very kind of interesting to see them
Speaker 1: both at the you know, so close to one another,
Speaker 1: right and for that, especially after leaving, you know, leaving Openhimer, Like, man,
Speaker 1: those ladies didn't get nothing. They should have been the
Speaker 1: Barbie movie. Yeah, they would have gotten more story. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I very much enjoyed the Barbie Movie.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I loved it. Super fun. And I'll say
Speaker 2: my relationship with Barbie is limited, but not non existent.
Speaker 2: I remember as a as very young. I was I
Speaker 2: don't know, six years, seven years old something like that,
Speaker 2: and my older sisters were playing with Barbie's and I
Speaker 2: was younger and had my own Kendall except his name
Speaker 2: was George.
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know, why did you named him George?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I named it. It was no like
Speaker 2: I named him George. It was like this guy's name.
Speaker 2: They were like, here's here's a ken and I was like, cool,
Speaker 2: what's his name? Uh, George. And so when I wanted
Speaker 2: to play with my sisters, whom I my own respect
Speaker 2: very much, they were like, Okay, you're the neighbor and
Speaker 2: we're going to invite you over later. So you sit
Speaker 2: in your house, which is in your room, and then
Speaker 2: we'll invite you over later. And cut two little six
Speaker 2: year old sitting in my room with my little George doll,
Speaker 2: just waiting waiting for that invitation. And maybe I don't
Speaker 2: know in my mind, it was weeks went by. It
Speaker 2: was probably ten minutes before I was like, I don't
Speaker 2: think they're gonna invite me and getting really upset. So
Speaker 2: that's that's my Barbie memory. That's how it went for me,
Speaker 2: I was I was more enamored with my thrift store,
Speaker 2: my Little Ponies, what I had with their Neon colors
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. So and of course I had
Speaker 2: some like cool Ninja turtles. So I had a real
Speaker 2: mishmash of toys and dolls and action figures and stuff
Speaker 2: that I played with, but a little bit of Barbie.
Speaker 2: And I will say I was skeptical from the trailer,
Speaker 2: not because I thought it looked bad or I didn't
Speaker 2: like the colors or anything like that. I was thinking,
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if Greta Gerwig and No Bombback No
Speaker 2: Comedy skillfully enough to pull off you know that what
Speaker 2: I feel like is looking like it's supposed to be
Speaker 2: a very funny movie. And I don't know them to
Speaker 2: have a big history with comedy, and I'll say I'm
Speaker 2: not that familiar with either of them, but just looking
Speaker 2: at their IMDb and watching the trailer, I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm nervous that a lot of these jokes are gonna
Speaker 2: fall flat despite the very cool world it looks like
Speaker 2: it takes place. And I'll say I laughed my ass
Speaker 2: off that whole movie hilarious. It was very funny and
Speaker 2: I was wrong to question that, and.
Speaker 1: A lot of that to do with the performances, I
Speaker 1: think too, because Ryan Gosling was so funny, like he
Speaker 1: really brought a lot to the role. I thought Margot
Speaker 1: Robbie was amazing. Oh my god, everyone's talk about Ryan
Speaker 1: Gosling and they should again. He did an amazing job
Speaker 1: and he was really really funny. But Margot Robbie brought
Speaker 1: such a humanity. Yeah, she was so real and I
Speaker 1: just loved it. I just thought she did an amazing job.
Speaker 1: I really thought she was incredible.
Speaker 2: I feel a little badly for her right now because
Speaker 2: and she she'll be fine, but but I feel, like
Speaker 2: so many people, it's so much easier to be impressed
Speaker 2: by what Ryan Gosling was doing because his was big
Speaker 2: and comedic and like he has all these very stylized
Speaker 2: performance deliveries and stuff where it's quotable and stand out
Speaker 2: and noticeable, and what Margaret Robbie doing is so much
Speaker 2: more subtle and like you said, real and human, and
Speaker 2: you don't notice that as much. By definition, she's doing
Speaker 2: a good job because it's not sticking out right, And
Speaker 2: so now I'm like, it's the Barbie movie, which is
Speaker 2: kind of about this, and everybody's talking about Ryan Gosling, right,
Speaker 2: that's upsetting to me for on her behalf because I'm
Speaker 2: like she, I think honestly did a more impressive job
Speaker 2: at doing something that doesn't stick out at you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2: And America Ferrara too, I thought was also yes, awesome,
Speaker 2: But I also have a little bit of America Frere
Speaker 2: and I also kind of have a deep passionate history together.
Speaker 1: El has a real dog, y'all. He's got a lot
Speaker 1: of girls. I'll say, Margaret Robbie's.
Speaker 2: In my on your list, on my list.
Speaker 1: I love Margaret Robbie.
Speaker 2: And I would be jealous of you, not for you,
Speaker 2: like you know what I mean, Like, I wouldn't be like,
Speaker 2: how dare you? I'd be like, how dare you? Why
Speaker 2: not me? I'm well.
Speaker 1: No, but yeah, I just thought, yeah, I thought everybody
Speaker 1: and it was for first of all, everyone in it
Speaker 1: was having a blast, which is really fun to watch.
Speaker 1: I mean, it just makes it so much more fun
Speaker 1: to watch. I really enjoyed the idea of a land,
Speaker 1: Barbie Land, you know, you know, completely run by Barbie.
Speaker 1: The cans are not important, They're They're just there, you know,
Speaker 1: to be Kens. There's even like some Barbie show on
Speaker 1: I don't even know what network, but it's some Barbie
Speaker 1: show anyway, and they show they show this little clip
Speaker 1: of Ken being like, well, Barbie has so many jobs
Speaker 1: and I just don't have any job, Like what am I?
Speaker 2: What do I even do?
Speaker 1: And he goes, I'm Barbie's boyfriend. That's my job, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's like very common for Ken to be given
Speaker 1: this kind of ideal of like, that's my job, beach
Speaker 1: I do peach or what I and that's what I do,
Speaker 1: and I just I think that's really fun and it
Speaker 1: was fun to sort of lp it on its head.
Speaker 1: Of course, that's the point, right, is that they come
Speaker 1: to the real world and they find that women don't
Speaker 1: run the world and all the men are not himbos
Speaker 1: running around trying to make the women happy with them.
Speaker 1: It's very much the opposite. And so then Ken learns
Speaker 1: about patriarchy, brings it to Barbieland and changes everything in
Speaker 1: barbie Land, and all the Barbies are now skimpily clad,
Speaker 1: you know, serve and drinks and yeah, subservient, and the
Speaker 1: Kens are all very excited about patriarchy because they get
Speaker 1: to be in charge of things and have their Instead
Speaker 1: of a dream house, they get to have a mojo
Speaker 1: dojo kasa house or whatever. So then they have to
Speaker 1: write the Barbie land, right, that's the movie to write
Speaker 1: barbieland get it back to Barbie's in charge. And we
Speaker 1: did you know, we're feminists ourselves, and we have a
Speaker 1: lot of feminist friends that are very deep in the
Speaker 1: theory and they have been studying feminism for many, many,
Speaker 1: many many years. Right, So we have some friends that
Speaker 1: are kind of like in the Barbie movie, not that great, right,
Speaker 1: feminist wise, it's very simplict like Baby's First feminism. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it is. There's definitely if you read any theory,
Speaker 1: a lot of the things that are said in the
Speaker 1: film you've heard a thousand times yea, like America Frere's
Speaker 1: big speech for example, in the film, I have heard
Speaker 1: a variation of since college. Right, So I was like, yeah, yeah, obviously,
Speaker 1: So that can be a little off putting, I guess
Speaker 1: if you're watching it for feminist reasons, I guess.
Speaker 2: Or if you're really first disappointing that it's like so
Speaker 2: basic you were hoping for something more little dechallenging for yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, profound or something like that, And I totally understand that,
Speaker 1: and it's completely valid. I thought it worked though, because
Speaker 1: the whole conceit throughout is that Barbie and Barbie Land
Speaker 1: they're being played with, right, So for example, she doesn't
Speaker 1: walk down the stairs, she floats because you just take
Speaker 1: your Barbie and you pick her up and you put
Speaker 1: her wherever you want her to be when you play
Speaker 1: with her. So they're very much leaning into that people
Speaker 1: are being played with. This is the playing this is
Speaker 1: the playing situation. So it kind of worked for me
Speaker 1: because it was like it was simplistic and straightforward in
Speaker 1: the way that oh, no, Barbie Lands, Barbie's been taken
Speaker 1: over by the patriarchy. I know, we'll speak truth to power,
Speaker 1: and then by the time your playtime is over, everything
Speaker 1: is fixed and everything is fine. And it took very
Speaker 1: little and it wasn't hard. Yeah, that's playtime, right, So
Speaker 1: it kind of worked for me on that level. And
Speaker 1: I was like, there's a lot of people who don't
Speaker 1: read feminist theory since college that haven't heard all this shits,
Speaker 1: and it was probably still very revelatory for a lot
Speaker 1: of watchers. So I'm okay, if you need to welcome
Speaker 1: Matt to feminism, make it hot pink, I'm fine with that.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm thinking too about America Ferrera's character. This
Speaker 2: is not a woman who necessarily has read a bunch
Speaker 2: of feminist theory and has heard all these arguments before.
Speaker 2: She's literally discovering and saying that. It's not that she's
Speaker 2: discovering her for the first time. She's known it and
Speaker 2: never had someone to express it too. Yes, and now
Speaker 2: she's in this place she's like, hang on, let me
Speaker 2: tell you what I think and lays out something that
Speaker 2: may sound very foundational to someone. She's not a scholar.
Speaker 2: She's a mom with a job like she's She's someone
Speaker 2: who would just let me articulate this any way I can,
Speaker 2: so that these brainwashed people can also hear it and
Speaker 2: be woken up a little bit. So I think by
Speaker 2: its nature it should be kind of simple in its ideology,
Speaker 2: like a foundational understanding of it.
Speaker 1: It made sense to me, Yeah, I didn't, It didn't.
Speaker 1: It didn't. I mean at the time when I was
Speaker 1: watching it, I was like, all right, Greta Gerwig, I
Speaker 1: know you know more than this this is like Twitter
Speaker 1: twitter stuff. But again then having seen it still really
Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I was like, fine, whatever, And then I
Speaker 1: was reading a lot of reactions and there were a
Speaker 1: lot of women older than me, younger than me, who
Speaker 1: were like when they said that, I cried When America
Speaker 1: Ferrera had that speech, I cried. It was so amazing
Speaker 1: to hear finally, for the first time someone say that,
Speaker 1: and it was like, oh wow, I never really thought
Speaker 1: about my life that way, or I never really you know,
Speaker 1: literally it was working in in real time for some
Speaker 1: people that didn't don't don't aren't familiar with that thinking. So, uh,
Speaker 1: that was fine with me. That was fine with me.
Speaker 1: But I do get the criticism, of course, Oh for sure,
Speaker 1: that was fine with me.
Speaker 2: Sure it's not a flawless movie, and it's not gonna
Speaker 2: fix all the world's problems, but hopefully it will, you know,
Speaker 2: give people something to think about. Yeah, I mean, I'll
Speaker 2: say my my biggest challenge was probably actually in the
Speaker 2: real world. The executives and we talked about this a
Speaker 2: little bit, the Will Ferrell's character and all them like
Speaker 2: they were so I think Ryan George said it on
Speaker 2: pitch meeting. He's like all the Mattel executives who want
Speaker 2: to eat their cake but also have their cake. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, it was like they were point in one
Speaker 2: in one aspect, they're the problem, right, Like there's all
Speaker 2: these men running this company for girls dolls don't know
Speaker 2: no better, and they're reinforcing all these negative stereotypes, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 2: So they're kind of the bad guys, but they're presented
Speaker 2: as so dopey and silly.
Speaker 1: And and well.
Speaker 2: Intentioned and unrealistic. We moved from Barbie's fantasyland into the
Speaker 2: real world, and most of the men they meet in
Speaker 2: the real world are some exaggerated version of and are
Speaker 2: not not so much exaggerated of. You know, the worst
Speaker 2: kind of man you meet on the street, cat callers
Speaker 2: and ass slappers and you know, all these like kind
Speaker 2: of gross dudes. And then they show up at Mattel
Speaker 2: and we're back in a fantasy like these aren't realistic
Speaker 2: characters anymore. Ken they're basically.
Speaker 1: Kenny Himbo's Yeah, they're they're kind of Ken life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they when they go to Barbie Land
Speaker 2: and it's funny, but it's feels unnecessary. It feels wedged in, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I don't feel like they got the right lesson
Speaker 2: out of it, or or at least not an effective
Speaker 2: version of whatever they were trying to do with those guys.
Speaker 1: I agree. I feel like the Metel executives were completely pointless. Really,
Speaker 1: they they really had nothing ye to do with anything.
Speaker 1: I think if you took them out, it wouldn't really
Speaker 1: change the mood very much.
Speaker 2: It wouldn't.
Speaker 1: But you know, well, also keeping in mind that this
Speaker 1: isn't a Tel person exactly. Uh maybe Baby's Furst feminism
Speaker 1: and goofy fun well intentioned and Metel execs where we
Speaker 1: do point out there's not enough women in here, not
Speaker 1: as far as they were letting her go, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, So I do. I do keep that
Speaker 1: in mind. It's not like it was gretit Ger who
Speaker 1: was like, I'm coming after me till you know, like,
Speaker 1: but they were definitely, I thought, pretty pretty useless.
Speaker 2: I also felt, I'll give my my male perspective.
Speaker 1: Here for thank God, finally thanks.
Speaker 2: Someone's giving it. But no, really, I think from my perspective,
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed the what I felt like they were
Speaker 2: saying with this patriarchy takeover of Barbie Land, where it
Speaker 2: wasn't exclusively like men are awful and you give them
Speaker 2: a chance and they'll just all turn into the worst
Speaker 2: douchebags in the world. Theirs was and this was I
Speaker 2: think highlighted in Barbie and Ken's conversation near the end,
Speaker 2: largely a reaction to how they'd been treated in their
Speaker 2: world up to that point, Like the reason the Kens
Speaker 2: went so far in the wrong direction was because they
Speaker 2: had not been allowed to have any agency of their
Speaker 2: own for so long, right, so they are, you know,
Speaker 2: treated as objects for Barbie totally at the at their mercy,
Speaker 2: and they don't really have their own full identities or
Speaker 2: anything like that. They're basically just dolls, these hymbos, and
Speaker 2: so when presented with like, well you could have power,
Speaker 2: they go a little overboard with it. They go very
Speaker 2: overboard with it. And I to me that felt like
Speaker 2: the lesson in there is not just like these men
Speaker 2: that act like this are monsters, obviously, and the cruelty
Speaker 2: they did towards Barbie's is unacceptable, but also how we
Speaker 2: treat each other informs our reactions to that, right, and
Speaker 2: so there was something for Barbie to learn too, And
Speaker 2: I think that parallels back into the real world when
Speaker 2: men get all angry about how reactive feminists are or
Speaker 2: how like you know that that ideology is so extreme,
Speaker 2: It's like, well, what do you want? How look at
Speaker 2: the lives these people have had to live for so long.
Speaker 2: Of course they want to move quickly and rapidly in
Speaker 2: the other direction. And maybe you might feel like that's overshooting,
Speaker 2: But what do you expect from someone who hasn't had
Speaker 2: any agency their whole lives?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I like too that it was patriarchy was as
Speaker 1: much of a brainwash for them, yes, as it was
Speaker 1: for the Barbiees, Like they they were fully taken in
Speaker 1: and Ken's like, as soon as I found out was
Speaker 1: about I didn't really care. I thought that was so funny,
Speaker 1: Like that was so funny. And I think that's good
Speaker 1: because it shows like patriarchy was hurting them too, even
Speaker 1: when they were in charge of everything. They were like
Speaker 1: I just missed my friend Barbie, and I don't know
Speaker 1: what to do, And you know, like they didn't like
Speaker 1: it really, I mean, you know, they were pretty uncomfortable
Speaker 1: after a while, I think, and it was just not
Speaker 1: how they wanted to live. They wanted to be with
Speaker 1: Barbie and have a good time with Barbie, Like that was,
Speaker 1: you know, why do I need her to be over
Speaker 1: here underneath me in order to feel like a full Ken?
Speaker 1: I am kanough or But you know, I thought that
Speaker 1: was that was well done, or at least I thought
Speaker 1: that was a big point. Part of that point, I
Speaker 1: think was to show like this is harming them as
Speaker 1: much as it's harming the Barbie is either way, you're
Speaker 1: caught up in a way of thinking that isn't serving you,
Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that. So I thought that was that.
Speaker 2: Worked really well.
Speaker 1: I had issues with some of the Ruth Handler stuff
Speaker 1: at the end. So when Barbie is saying, I'm you know,
Speaker 1: not done, like my story is not and Mattell's like, well,
Speaker 1: you're in love with Ken, that's your story, and she's like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not in love with Ken, So I was my
Speaker 1: story right? And so so then she meets Ruth Handler,
Speaker 1: and Ruth Handler's like she says the line mothers stand
Speaker 1: still so our daughters can look back and see how
Speaker 1: far they've come, or something paraphrasing something like that.
Speaker 2: I think that's pretty much it.
Speaker 1: And I disliked that line I'm not a mother, so
Speaker 1: feel free to write to me and tell me why
Speaker 1: I'm wrong about this. But I did not like the
Speaker 1: idea that moms once they have a kid, stand still
Speaker 1: and don't do anything, or don't achieve anything right, or
Speaker 1: don't continue to work on themselves or their lives because
Speaker 1: it's all about their daughter now or something. I just
Speaker 1: didn't really think that sentiment worked for me. It didn't
Speaker 1: land it. Sort of that idea is why I don't
Speaker 1: want kids. Why I think a lot of people don't
Speaker 1: want kids is because of that idea. And I saw
Speaker 1: a lot of women say they loved that line and
Speaker 1: they thought it was amazing and it brought to you
Speaker 1: to their eyes. So maybe I'm missing something.
Speaker 2: But well, I'm sure it depends on your perspective too.
Speaker 2: I'm sure a lot of mothers feel like I put
Speaker 2: some shit down, yeah, so that you know, my daughter
Speaker 2: could get further than I did, and you know I
Speaker 2: set my career aside to raise her. Whatever. I mean.
Speaker 2: The women have such a more complicated, uh life to
Speaker 2: lead as a parent in a lot of ways, in
Speaker 2: a lot of the traditional sense, like, well, I guess
Speaker 2: my it's default assumption that if someone's career has got
Speaker 2: to go. It's mine, right, So you know that's where
Speaker 2: I'm seeing. I guess where you could find something relatable
Speaker 2: in that line, but I do think it's such a
Speaker 2: I agree with you that it's so bluntly stated as
Speaker 2: a rule, right that it's it's a little disheartening.
Speaker 1: Well, and to tie it back to Oppenheimer, is that
Speaker 1: not why Kitty was the way she was. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: she had to stand still for other people and did
Speaker 1: not get to become a botanist like she wanted, and
Speaker 1: not get her PhD. And I know she chose her
Speaker 1: She made her choices too. She said, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to go after this PhD. She did her thing. Sure,
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to take that away, but that is
Speaker 1: part of what made her so mad, I think, and
Speaker 1: feel so constrained in her life. Was once you're a
Speaker 1: wife and mother, that's what you are. You don't get
Speaker 1: to have something else. So that line kind of frustrated
Speaker 1: me on that level. Again, maybe I'm missing something because
Speaker 1: I'm not a parent myself, but I had trouble with
Speaker 1: that line. And I also kind of hated the part
Speaker 1: where she's like, I want to be a real human
Speaker 1: and she's like, well, take my hands and you'll see
Speaker 1: what it's really like to be human, so you know what,
Speaker 1: you know what you're getting yourself into here. And then
Speaker 1: they showed nothing but good times. Yeah, show a lot
Speaker 1: of home videos of like happy birthdays and like fun
Speaker 1: Christmases and like people in a field with flowers and
Speaker 1: like babies and lovely imagery about how great it is
Speaker 1: to be a human being. And I remember even thinking
Speaker 1: in the movie, I wish they were showing the nuclear bomb,
Speaker 1: because I mean, first of all, I've been an amazing
Speaker 1: tie in. It's just like Kelly and Murphy somehow, but
Speaker 1: that you know, good times is not the only thing
Speaker 1: there is to be in human And I think it
Speaker 1: would have made her yes, a lot more definitive and
Speaker 1: powerful if she had seen a lot of bad shit
Speaker 1: too and said even so with all that shit, I
Speaker 1: still want it, right, I think I think it would
Speaker 1: have been more powerful, And so it kind of undercut
Speaker 1: it to me to only show good things.
Speaker 2: I was thinking the exact same thing during that montage.
Speaker 2: I was like, this is a little too nice for
Speaker 2: the idea of what it is to be human. It
Speaker 2: sucks sometimes and and also, that's what makes good things
Speaker 2: good is bad things. If everything was just happy all
Speaker 2: the time, then where's your comparison point? What is happy?
Speaker 2: It's just normal, right, right? So I agree that I
Speaker 2: think that montage would have been a lot better with
Speaker 2: some some some shots from openham They if both movies
Speaker 2: had found a way to include in their montages elements
Speaker 2: of the other. Truly the greatest we had to get
Speaker 2: movies like.
Speaker 1: A drunken dream of kitties. So she's going, Hi, Barbie, Hi, Barbie, Hi, Barbie,
Speaker 1: I'm a bus fitness and then she wakes up. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, right. I also loved the point where
Speaker 1: she said all these things about how contradictory it is
Speaker 1: to be a woman, and now we want we're putting
Speaker 1: all that on a doll as well, because we want
Speaker 1: Barbe to see everything too. She has to be both beautiful,
Speaker 1: slim and gorgeous so that people want to play with her.
Speaker 1: But also she has to be every job and smart
Speaker 1: and have all the capabilities of whatever whatever, right, Like,
Speaker 1: we need her to do everything and be everything. So
Speaker 1: weird and now everyone's kind of feeling that way. But
Speaker 1: the movie too, they're sort of like it's too feminist,
Speaker 1: it's not feminist enough.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: You know, it's getting all the same. All the exact
Speaker 1: same contradictions that she talks about in the movie are
Speaker 1: given to the movie now. And that's very interesting to
Speaker 1: me to see that kind of being extrapolated in the
Speaker 1: real world.
Speaker 2: You know, I've said it before many times, and I'm
Speaker 2: glad that Greta Gerwig and the Barbie cast picked up
Speaker 2: on what I was saying, which is that it's it's
Speaker 2: I think it's challenging for women sometimes in this world
Speaker 2: it's complicated. Maybe even you know, I don't know, may
Speaker 2: maybe a little more complicated than men. I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: I don't want to walk into that, but but you know,
Speaker 2: I'm just glad that other that that women have finally caught.
Speaker 1: Up to what I thought, Oh my god, you were
Speaker 1: gonna challenging me today. Uh No, But I just I
Speaker 1: think that's really interesting. And that's not to say that
Speaker 1: like movies that women do or you know, people put
Speaker 1: a lot more on it. I think they are putting
Speaker 1: a lot on this movie. It was offering a lot,
Speaker 1: so of course, what will people will put their weight
Speaker 1: of their expectations on it. And that's going to make
Speaker 1: a difference. But and people are saying the same about Oppenheimer.
Speaker 1: They want Oppenheimer to do everything. I wanted it to
Speaker 1: have more with the women. You know, people were like,
Speaker 1: why didn't you include the down Winders. There's lots of
Speaker 1: criticism of that movie too, not even enough or whatever, right,
Speaker 1: and so we should probably examine how much we're expecting
Speaker 1: from our entertainment and our dolls and shit.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, imagine, five years ago someone said Mattel
Speaker 2: is gonna produce a Barbie movie and they didn't tell
Speaker 2: you who's directing it or anything like that. We all
Speaker 2: know what trash that movie is gonna be. It's gonna
Speaker 2: they're gonna get the director of snow Dogs to come
Speaker 2: in and do the dopiest, schlockiest, like the jokes are
Speaker 2: gonna be awful, it's gonna be. It's gonna be the
Speaker 2: most stereotypical, just like Minions, but they're Barbies now garbage.
Speaker 2: What we got is kind of unbelievable.
Speaker 1: I agree.
Speaker 2: I'm sort of shocked that it was just on a
Speaker 2: surface level as thoughtful as it was, because A didn't
Speaker 2: have to be and B probably struggled just to be that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I'm impressed. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Also shout out to Michael Sarah. Alan was is a
Speaker 1: really fun character. Very much enjoyed Alan. I love you
Speaker 1: go to beat some ass. Yeah, I'm Ken's friend and
Speaker 1: we can share clothes.
Speaker 2: Or whatever. That is perfect part for him.
Speaker 1: Delightful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just really good. Similu was really funny too. Yes,
Speaker 2: it was great, and uh yeah, it's just overall. Oh
Speaker 2: it's a ray.
Speaker 1: It's a ray for president.
Speaker 2: We're fans. She was hilarious.
Speaker 1: I did love the kid too.
Speaker 2: I don't know the great Kate McKinnon's I mean Kate
Speaker 2: McKinnon and Greta Gerwig just found out that they were
Speaker 2: roommates in college.
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, I didn't know that. Oh the kid
Speaker 1: right America.
Speaker 2: For first daughter, she was great.
Speaker 1: We'll also say a little funny Easter egg. The daughter
Speaker 1: and her three friends are apparently based on the original
Speaker 1: Brats dolls. Oh so sort of like the next generation
Speaker 1: or whatever. So I thought that was kind of funny,
Speaker 1: and it's true when you look at the four bratstalls
Speaker 1: there at least very similar Like ethnicity is there's one
Speaker 1: one black Brats, one blonde one, you know. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: oh shit, those really are her fore friends.
Speaker 2: That's cute.
Speaker 1: So that was really cute. A lot of little shit
Speaker 1: like that. That's fun to find out about the movie too, Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. It just makes it more fun.
Speaker 2: So, folks, I want to know, I want to know.
Speaker 2: We've been talking about Oppenheimer, we've been talking about Barbie,
Speaker 2: and I'm just curious. I want you all to to
Speaker 2: email us. I want you to message us. I want
Speaker 2: you to let us know if you like listen to
Speaker 2: us talk about movies, because we like doing it. And
Speaker 2: I've always been curious if we put that on the air,
Speaker 2: you know what kind of interest, Yeah, Garner from that,
Speaker 2: So I'm s curious. I mean, you know, it's just
Speaker 2: kind of circumstantial that we went into Oppenheimer and Diana
Speaker 2: dove deep into all this research, and now we get
Speaker 2: to talk about the movie as well. So I hope
Speaker 2: you'll enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope so too. And all this stuff about
Speaker 1: Oppenheimer's ladies, Oh my god, I was just and as kids,
Speaker 1: you know, they were all of them a little bit
Speaker 1: left to the dust of history, so it was cool
Speaker 1: to dust them off and kind of see what was
Speaker 1: going on.
Speaker 2: Right, right. Careful that dust, don't breathe.
Speaker 1: In because that's radioactive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for sticking with us through this.
Speaker 2: I think I think was really fascinated by by everything
Speaker 2: we've been doing for the last couple hours. So thank
Speaker 2: you for tuning in. Do please reach out give us
Speaker 2: your thoughts. I'm now more than ever. Maybe I just
Speaker 2: want to know what you thought of Oppenheimer the movie
Speaker 2: of the Man of These Women.
Speaker 1: Nuclear nuclear weapons?
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, disarmament.
Speaker 1: Would you have dropped the bomb on Japan?
Speaker 2: God? But and then let us know? Yeah, if you
Speaker 2: want to join us for more movie conversations, we'd love to.
Speaker 2: We'd love to wrap you into that, so please shoot
Speaker 2: us an email ridict Romance at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: We're also on Instagram. I'm at Dianamite.
Speaker 2: Boone and I'm at over Rate.
Speaker 1: It's Eli and the show is atridict Romance.
Speaker 2: Thanks again everybody for tuning in and spending your time
Speaker 2: with us, and we can't wait to hear from you.
Speaker 2: We can't wait to give you another episode next time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we love you. By bye, solo friends, It's time
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