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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome back.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, very excited to dive right into this one

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Speaker 2: today because I'm assuming if you're here that you heard

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Speaker 2: part one of our Oppenheimer's story. Be weird if you didn't,

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Speaker 2: you just chose to start here.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I hope. So maybe I feel a little

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Speaker 1: at sea.

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Speaker 2: Right, Maybe I had an episode randomizer that picked this

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Speaker 2: one for you. We'll go back and listen to part

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Speaker 2: one first, otherwise you'll be very lost.

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Speaker 1: Probaly like it better that way, the flow, the flow

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Speaker 1: is better. Yeah, we wanted to kind of dive into

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Speaker 1: the women in Oppenheimer's life because we saw the movie

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Speaker 1: and it's great, love it, fantastic film. Definitely go see it.

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Speaker 1: But as anyone will point out to you, but not

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Speaker 1: just us, but anyone will point out to you, Christopher

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Speaker 1: Nolan not that great at writing women characters. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I can see that he made a concerted effort to

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Speaker 1: include some women in this film, and I appreciate that.

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Speaker 1: Hats off to you, sir, But there's still a little sketter,

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Speaker 1: so kind of wanted to fill in a little more

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Speaker 1: of their personalities and the role they really played in

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Speaker 1: his life besides just Jean was a communist and that

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Speaker 1: made trouble for him, and he was a drunk and

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Speaker 1: that made trouble for him. Like, you know, that's not

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Speaker 1: enough for me. I want to know more.

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Speaker 2: It's a three hour movie as it is, I know,

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Speaker 2: and there's only so much, but it is I think

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Speaker 2: we have discussed it's a common problem that sure, this

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Speaker 2: movie doesn't have time and shouldn't have to focus on

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Speaker 2: the side characters. I mean, you know, like Josh Harten's

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Speaker 2: character doesn't get much more time either. But the problem

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Speaker 2: is there aren't any movies out there telling Getty's story

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Speaker 2: and story so and.

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Speaker 1: Sadly it wouldn't be that interesting of a movie, probably

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Speaker 1: because of the kind of limited lives that women were

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Speaker 1: forced to them. That's the thing that get frustrated, because

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Speaker 1: I'm like, you wouldn't want to necessarily watch a movie

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Speaker 1: about the women of Los Alamos sitting around waiting to

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Speaker 1: not hear from their husbands what they're up to.

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Speaker 2: I'd watch Greta Gerwig do it.

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Speaker 1: I would watch Greta Gerwig. She would find a way,

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Speaker 1: she would find a way. But all that to say is,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's not women's choice that they

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Speaker 1: have the boring part of history. You know what I'm saying, Like,

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Speaker 1: these ladies were trying to make their own way and

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Speaker 1: do cool things, and they got sidetracked by the way

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Speaker 1: the world was. And that's very frustrating and it makes

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Speaker 1: me be like, yeah, I hear you. You don't want

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Speaker 1: to hear a movie about it. But that's part of

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Speaker 1: my problem, is that you don't want a movie of

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Speaker 1: their lives because.

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Speaker 2: Of well anyway, and again, I think once we often

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Speaker 2: dig into that history and you unearth as much as

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Speaker 2: you can, you find out there was interesting stuff going on,

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Speaker 2: very true, and either it wasn't well recorded or it

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Speaker 2: just wasn't well thought of for a long time.

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Speaker 1: But you know what I do.

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Speaker 2: I want Credit Rwig to do a movie about the

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Speaker 2: women of Oppenheimer, and then I want Christopher Nolan to

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Speaker 2: do Ken spinoff, and I want to see those. Just

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Speaker 2: imagine they can't same weekend release date again for both

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Speaker 2: of them. The time the time talk about saving Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: Listen, but what Ken is it? Ken minto Makino, He goes.

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Speaker 2: Backwards there, Ken's time distortion experience.

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Speaker 1: He's got all these tattoos all over him. I would

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Speaker 1: actually buy them Memento Ken little tattoos all over him.

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Speaker 1: Say hi to Barbie.

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Speaker 2: He's got it written across his chest upside down.

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Speaker 1: Take a look at it.

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Speaker 2: All right, all right, well we are going to talk

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Speaker 2: about those movies, yes, But first, in the first part

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Speaker 2: of this episode, we're going to finish up the story

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Speaker 2: of uh of Robert Oppenheimer and Kitty his wife. I

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Speaker 2: think we get a little back in the gene again.

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Speaker 2: And then of course our friend Ruth Tolman so lots

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Speaker 2: left to tell very exciting stuff. And again, if you

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Speaker 2: haven't seen the movie, this I think is a little

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Speaker 2: more spoilery than the stuff we mentioned in part.

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Speaker 1: One, but it was more fun to watch it not knowing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but you know, see the movie. Either way,

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Speaker 2: I say, we just dive in and get started.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it. Hey their French condition, Well, Eli and

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Speaker 1: Diana got some stories to tell. There's no match making

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Speaker 1: a romantic tips. It's just about ridiculous relationship. I loove.

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Speaker 1: There might be any type of person at all, and

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Speaker 1: abstract concept or a concrete wall. But if there's a

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Speaker 1: story worth the second clans, we'll put it in a show.

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Romance, A production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: So apparently in her drunkenness, Kitty would get a little

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Speaker 2: graphic about her sex life, and she made comments about

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Speaker 2: how she had to teach Oppenheimer about foreplay and that

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Speaker 2: sex could be fun. He previously was not aware, and

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Speaker 2: he was like, oh, I thought it was for science.

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Speaker 1: It's probably very mechanical. Uhh science joke maybe in his approach,

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Speaker 1: and she was like, hey, we could have a good

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Speaker 1: time with this.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh. You put the one in the zero that's.

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Speaker 1: Sex, So that works too well, honestly, go ahead.

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Speaker 2: So klausen Strasinski take this information to show that maybe

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Speaker 2: Robert's relationship with Gene Tatlock wasn't really as sexually charged

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Speaker 2: as we've heard it or seen it portrayed in the movie,

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Speaker 2: because he's just again, he's not this like passionate sexual

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Speaker 2: guy necessarily until Kitty got her claws in him, right well,

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Speaker 2: and in.

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Speaker 1: The film when you see Gene, they're either having sex

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Speaker 1: or they just had sex, right. So it's just very like,

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Speaker 1: if you were just to watch the film and not

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Speaker 1: look at any research, you might think, oh, Robert and

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Speaker 1: Jean were like passionate sexy sex times he and Kitty

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Speaker 1: were like just a good merit, like she was just

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Speaker 1: the right wife for him or something. But that's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily the case. So anyway, So.

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Speaker 2: And here's a little bit about just something that I

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Speaker 2: loved in the movie. Even Kitty's detractors, even tho all

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Speaker 2: the people who talked shit about Kitty, could not deny

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Speaker 2: that when she was called in as a witness in

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Speaker 2: her husband's security clearance hearing, she was his greatest defender.

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Speaker 2: She was total superhero, badass Mary Poppins coming in there.

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Speaker 2: That's right, shutting it down. The Secretary, Verna Hobson said, quote,

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Speaker 2: so many times I've seen her pull herself together when

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Speaker 2: you didn't believe she possibly could. That's right, despite her

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Speaker 2: being drunk or on pills or whatever, depressed, whatever was

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Speaker 2: going on with her, when she needed to, she stood

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Speaker 2: up and she would kick ass.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Probably a lot of people underestimated her for that one

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Speaker 2: hundred Oh she's just a drunk, she can't do nothing,

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Speaker 2: and then she's like a han A second, ahem. First

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Speaker 2: of all, let me tell you this, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean pretty much she talked circles.

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Speaker 2: Around the investigators. If you saw the movie, you saw

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Speaker 2: this scene and Kitty impressed all of Robert's friends.

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Speaker 1: With her performance, right, Like, even people who were like,

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Speaker 1: she's the worst possible wife for them, I see her,

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Speaker 1: she sucks, were like she was a tower of strength

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Speaker 1: during this time. She was a better witness than Robert.

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Speaker 1: Like they were like she was the one.

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Speaker 2: And years later when Oppenheimer was given his medal and

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Speaker 2: the government was like, oh, sorry, buddy, you know how

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Speaker 2: feelings right, like, I know we sued you and investigating

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Speaker 2: for trees and all this stuff water under the bridge across.

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Speaker 2: Even then, she held a damn grudge until the end.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't taken that bullshit apology, none of that.

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Speaker 1: Which makes me think of earlier when the neighbor was like,

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Speaker 1: she's fiercely loyal. She is like a little lion. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, that's exactly when she like, once she decides

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Speaker 1: you're on her team, she will fight yeah for you

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Speaker 1: until tooth and nail.

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Speaker 2: Now, after Oppenheimer's security clearance was revoked, their daughter Tony

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Speaker 2: was diagnosed with polio, so they moved to the US

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Speaker 2: virgin Island of Saint John. While she recovered, Robert and

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Speaker 2: Kitty ended up discovering a shared love of sailing. So

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Speaker 2: they built a beach house there and they sailed together

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Speaker 2: every summer. So they were like, we used to ride horses,

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Speaker 2: now riding boat. Yeah, they're like, whatever, I just want

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Speaker 2: to be on a particular, a very specialized landscape and

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Speaker 2: whatever thing is best suited to travel that landscape.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm into it. I'm in it.

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Speaker 2: Then you know. And then they go to Alaska and

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Speaker 2: they're all on snowmobiles all the time, all right, Florida

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Speaker 2: and they just can't they can't get over their shared

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Speaker 2: love of fan boats.

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Speaker 1: I was just like, they're in bathing suits at the

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Speaker 1: grocery store. I don't know where you go with that.

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Speaker 2: No, No, they're in Australia. They're hopping around in kangaroo pouches.

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Speaker 1: Amazing. I would do that, just like I think a

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Speaker 1: kangaroo would immediately kick my face in.

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Speaker 2: I love a specialized former transportation in a particular and

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Speaker 2: singular landscape. That's their thing.

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Speaker 1: Well, that was their new thing. They had some lovely

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Speaker 1: summers together, sure, but on January sixth, nineteen sixty seven,

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Speaker 1: Robert Oppenheimer was diagnosed with inoperable cancer, and he died

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Speaker 1: a little more than a month later on February eighteenth,

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Speaker 1: So it did not take.

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Speaker 2: Long from smoking, I'll add, Yeah, he was a heavy smoker. Yes, yes, was.

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Speaker 2: I believe throat cancer right, think you're right.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right, And per his wishes, Kitty had

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Speaker 1: him cremated and she dropped his urn off the coast

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Speaker 1: of Saint John, within sight of their beach house. In

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Speaker 1: May of that year, their close friend Robert Serber, who

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Speaker 1: we've mentioned several times, his wife died by suicide, very tragically.

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Speaker 1: A few months after that, Robert Serber and Kitty Oppenheimer

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Speaker 1: were living together. So she found her another man, I guess,

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Speaker 1: and Kitty got him into sailing as well. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy two, they purchased a boat and they planned to

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Speaker 1: sail through the Panama Canal to Japan. Wow, which sounds amazing.

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Speaker 1: But Kitty had an embolism and she died on October

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Speaker 1: twenty seventh, nineteen seventy two. Decadent Review points out in

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Speaker 1: Atomic Love Story they kind of wrap it up by saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: she found another man close to hand and married him,

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Speaker 1: And Decadent Reviews kind of like, that's a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a judgment that's being called about her. Nobody says

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Speaker 1: after Kitty dies, Robert Serber takes up with a student

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Speaker 1: like a young woman much younger than him, and Decadent

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Speaker 1: Review points out, nobody says, oh, Robert Serber found the

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Speaker 1: closest woman to hands. It has the same ye disparagement

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Speaker 1: of him be being a companion as thinking for her.

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Speaker 1: So just to keep in mind that everything we know

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Speaker 1: about Kitty was said in a time when a woman

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Speaker 1: who was very opinionated and outspoken was not a maybe

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Speaker 1: a well respected woman. People didn't like women like that.

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Speaker 1: So everything we read about her now we read it differently,

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Speaker 1: I think, and so it's harder to kind of jive

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Speaker 1: all these ideas of her together.

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Speaker 2: I think everyone was so conditioned to think that was

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Speaker 2: like abnormal behavior, like, oh, oh, she's telling people she

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Speaker 2: doesn't like that when you do it, that's what's wrong with.

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Speaker 1: Her, right, not a lady? And yeah, not quiet. It's

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Speaker 1: not a die away myths, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: And that also may have contributed to her being difficult

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Speaker 2: to like or being a brusque and mean person. You know.

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Speaker 2: That's that sort of builds on itself. It's a little

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Speaker 2: self fulfilling when you say, Oh, she's because she's opinionated.

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Speaker 2: She's so nasty, right, And then she's like, well, then yeah,

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Speaker 2: I am nasty because everyone thinks I'm so opinionated and

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Speaker 2: they're cruel to me. So yeah, I think it's it's

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Speaker 2: a vicious spiral to get stuck in.

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Speaker 1: It is. So it just you decide you don't have

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Speaker 1: to like Kitty or anything like that. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: I would have been friends with her, but it is

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Speaker 1: something that's interesting to think about, just from hindsight, how

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Speaker 1: we read people in their time versus now, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff like that. But Robert and Kitty did

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Speaker 1: have two children, and I was kind of curious about

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Speaker 1: the kid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: According to Nuclear Museum dot Com, Tony Oppenheimer never really

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Speaker 1: got along with her mother. She had two unsuccessful marriages,

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Speaker 1: and she was deeply depressed by her father's passing. She

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Speaker 1: was also denied a security clearance to become a translator

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Speaker 1: for the UN. Oh, and that kind of brought up

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Speaker 1: a lot of trauma from her dad's security clearance hearing

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Speaker 1: in fifty four. So she was really depress and lots

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Speaker 1: of things going wrong for her. When she died by

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Speaker 1: suicide at the beach House in Saint John in nineteen seventy.

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Speaker 2: Seven, oh Man. Now, their son, Peter Oppenheimer, did not

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Speaker 2: do well in school. He did really terribly, even though

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Speaker 2: he was very smart, but he had a lot of anxiety,

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Speaker 2: and he also got teased a lot about his dad,

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Speaker 2: especially after the security hearing. Peter once wrote on the

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Speaker 2: chalkboard in class that quote, certain people in the US

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Speaker 2: government should go to hell. He's not wrong.

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Speaker 1: Still then or now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Apparently Robert Oppenheimer was told by a family friend

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Speaker 2: that he should get some psychological help for his son

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Speaker 2: for his anxiety when he was a kid. But Robert

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Speaker 2: was offended at this idea because the friend, Pat Shirr,

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Speaker 2: said that Oppenheimer quote could not have a son who

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Speaker 2: needed help. I think that's one of those masculine pride issues.

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Speaker 2: No son of mine needs psychological help. He's fine, He's

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Speaker 2: a healthy What I.

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Speaker 1: Find so fascinating about this is that Robert Oppenheimer was

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Speaker 1: really interested in psychology. Yeah, gene Caatlog worked with kids

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Speaker 1: in psychiatry. Ruth Tolman was a psychiatrist, a psychologist. He

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Speaker 1: had a lot of respect for that field. But at

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Speaker 1: this time period, of course, if you had to see

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Speaker 1: a therapist, it meant you were a crazy part like

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Speaker 1: you were beyond you were beyond crazy. Yeah, if you

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Speaker 1: needed a therapist. So it's just like a really weird

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Speaker 1: of I don't know weight to put on therapy at

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Speaker 1: that time.

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Speaker 2: He has an intellectual probably very much thought like, oh

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Speaker 2: that's for lesser mortals maybe, yeah, you know if you yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean not just like you must be super crazy

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Speaker 2: even need a therapist. But well, we're smart, we have

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Speaker 2: control of our brains, right, because we're so well educated

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Speaker 2: and well read, like we can reason our way out

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Speaker 2: of which I know a lot of us still think.

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Speaker 2: I thinking of myself today, why can't I just think

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Speaker 2: my way out of this psychology problem? You know? And

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Speaker 2: you can us. The whole idea is that it's not

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Speaker 2: something you can you can't outsmart yourself. But I know,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that Robert Oppenheimer was very much like a

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Speaker 2: mind over matter person.

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Speaker 1: True.

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Speaker 2: And if look, if you're my son, if you're a

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Speaker 2: little Robert Oppenheimer and you're having trouble with your anxiety,

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Speaker 2: here's the formula to get rid of it.

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Speaker 1: Right well, and I wonder too again, time period wise

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Speaker 1: they're still very Freudian in that all your problems are

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Speaker 1: because of your childhood and your parents. So I wonder

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Speaker 1: if how much of that was like, I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: send my son to learn about why I was a

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Speaker 1: shitty dad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I already know I'm a shitty dad. I

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Speaker 2: don't need to pay you thirty thousand dollars to tell

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Speaker 2: me that.

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Speaker 1: I don't need some doctor to tell me I wasn't

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Speaker 1: involved enough for my kid's life. So probably a number

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Speaker 1: of reasons why that offended him. And but he was

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Speaker 1: definitely like uh uh.

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Speaker 2: Peter himself once said, quote, my father's true tragedy was

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Speaker 2: not that he lost his clearance, but my mother's slow

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Speaker 2: descent into alcoholism. Cut that word slow.

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Speaker 1: Now, this lends a lot of credence to the drunken.

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Speaker 1: Yes now. And I was going to say Robert Serber

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Speaker 1: throughout this book American Prometheus, you know, he said Jean Tatlock,

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Speaker 1: Robert Oppenheimer loved her the most, But of course at

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Speaker 1: the time he had already been with his wife, Kitty,

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Speaker 1: so did not make him feel better to say he

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Speaker 1: loved Gene more than Kitty. So it's okay that I'm

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Speaker 1: with Kitty. Oh, I wonder, I wonder, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: speculation station. And then I also wonder if he said, oh,

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Speaker 1: she was not drunk, she just took pills like everybody's so,

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Speaker 1: but he was with her. You know, you have feelings

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Speaker 1: for her, So he might have been trying to, you know,

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Speaker 1: do a little bit of repair on her image or

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Speaker 1: something out of love, out of affection of Kitty. But

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Speaker 1: you know, he might not be a reliable narrator for.

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Speaker 2: Who she is. Well. It could also be very similar

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Speaker 2: to his son and psychiatry, where he's like, she doesn't know,

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Speaker 2: she's not an alcoholic. We're better than that, right, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're superior to that sort of base human issue that's

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Speaker 2: lesser people have. She drinks a lot, but it's something

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Speaker 2: that we're smart enough to get through, right, you know,

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Speaker 2: she's fine.

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Speaker 1: She's okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Right. But anyway, for the fact that Peter said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: my mother had a slow descent into alcoholism. You know

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Speaker 1: what cut slow, it won't slow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also Tony apparently as a kid was constantly cleaning

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Speaker 1: up after her mother. She would clean up her empty

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Speaker 1: glasses and her beer bottle or whatever, and that's what

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Speaker 1: kind of caused Tony's rift with her mom was that

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Speaker 1: she started getting really upset about all that and not

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Speaker 1: liking having to do all that and have it drunk

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Speaker 1: mom or whatever. Right, So, because the kids say it,

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Speaker 1: I kind of believe.

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Speaker 2: It, Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't kind of believe that she is maybe a

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Speaker 1: pretty bad alcoholm.

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Speaker 2: But you know, when it comes to Peter, mostly wording

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Speaker 2: to Nuclear Museum, he has quote been so positive about

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Speaker 2: his parents that his children are often taken aback by

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Speaker 2: media portrayals of Kittie Oppenheimer as cruel and unrelenting. So

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Speaker 2: even even you know, her grandkids are like, come on, waiting,

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Speaker 2: Dad only says the nicest things about you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: she's Yeah, right now, Peter Oppenheimer is now a carpenter

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Speaker 2: and he lives in total seclusion on Paracaliente. And so

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Speaker 2: we say, lets nobody bother him. You know, he's like

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Speaker 2: eighty something years old.

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Speaker 1: Okay, leave that man alone.

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Speaker 2: That man alone.

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Speaker 1: Hashtag protect Peter.

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Speaker 2: Yes, he's had it hard enough.

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Speaker 1: I really think so. And that's what I wonder too

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Speaker 1: for him, if he's like, all right, I have plenty

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Speaker 1: to say about my parents, but everyone already said every

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Speaker 1: bad and good thing about them. I don't need to

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Speaker 1: add to it. I'm just gonna say they were great, fantastic,

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Speaker 1: no fuck off, Like I don't want to talk to

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Speaker 1: you or anyone else.

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Speaker 2: Well for sure, for sure, I mean got to be

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Speaker 2: so tough. He was the most talked about man in

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Speaker 2: the world for a long time. Yes, Oppenheimer. And what

359
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Speaker 2: a what a shadow to live under, right, right, I mean,

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Speaker 2: no matter what?

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Speaker 1: And so, And it makes me sad to think that

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Speaker 1: Peter and Tony and I don't know if they were

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Speaker 1: close or not, but it seems like they lived pretty

364
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Speaker 1: separate lives, right, And it makes me sad to think

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Speaker 1: that the only other person in the world who could

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Speaker 1: understand what it was to be Robert Oppenheimer's kid. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they weren't close to you know what I'm saying. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like that would bring you together, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know. And who knows. Again, we don't know that

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Speaker 1: much about them. They might have been fine together.

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Speaker 2: But the other thing, and I'll say we've sort of deliberately,

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Speaker 2: I think, not gotten into this conversation too much on

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Speaker 2: this show. But the other thing that can't not be

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Speaker 2: a huge part of their psychology as they become adults

375
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Speaker 2: and move into the world. Is knowing that their father

376
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,919
Speaker 2: created the atomic bomb, you know, and shortly there and was,

377
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Speaker 2: you know, in some linear fashion, directly responsible for the

378
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Speaker 2: deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, horrific deaths and whatever.

379
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Speaker 2: There's a whole lot more to say about the merits

380
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Speaker 2: of that, the reasons for that, and of course Oppenheimer's involvement,

381
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Speaker 2: why he was involved, and what he felt afterwards, et cetera,

382
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,800
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. So much to say that we

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Speaker 2: don't need to get into today. I do recommend seeing

384
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Speaker 2: the movie where there's a little more, just like, I

385
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Speaker 2: don't know, it sort of even still leaves that to interpretation,

386
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Speaker 2: but I'm thinking that can't not be part of their

387
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,199
Speaker 2: identity as well his kids. It has to be, Yeah,

388
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Speaker 2: my dad's the guy who made the nuke.

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Speaker 1: Especially after all of the photos of what happened in Japan, Yes,

390
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Speaker 1: and what really that weapon wrought. Yeah, after you see that,

391
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Speaker 1: how do you not have that connected to your father forever?

392
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Speaker 1: I mean, or do you I don't know, you know,

393
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Speaker 1: like because you know your dad is your dad. It's

394
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Speaker 1: a very specific character in your life, So who he

395
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Speaker 1: is to other people is kind of separate. You're like,

396
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Speaker 1: who's that guy? You know what I mean. Like I've

397
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Speaker 1: felt that way about my dad Sometimes I'm like, oh,

398
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Speaker 1: they know somebody different than I know. You know what

399
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 1: I'm saying, And that's just how it is. But you know,

400
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Speaker 1: it must be really hard to reconcile just and I

401
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,719
Speaker 1: think that that was what was so great about the

402
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:30,480
Speaker 1: movie was kind of showing how much everybody wanted him

403
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Speaker 1: to do this project. They wanted this, they asked him

404
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 1: for it, they were begging him for it, they were

405
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 1: pressuring him for it. But then once it happened, nobody

406
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:45,119
Speaker 1: really wanted to take responsibility to those consequences and be

407
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,399
Speaker 1: attached to that literal outcome. It really is. I don't know,

408
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 1: it's really hard. You could we I mean, we could

409
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Speaker 1: argue for hours and hours about whether or not it

410
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 1: was right to make it. You know, it's a very

411
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 1: fascinating topic and the movie will make you feel it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the truth. And speaking of the movie, mm hmmm,

413
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 2: I think we've said everything that we can say at

414
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Speaker 2: this point about Robert Oppenheimer's life and his three the

415
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 2: main three women that he interacted with romantically that that

416
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 2: really had an impact on him as a person. So

417
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Speaker 2: I'm very excited that we get to uncover all that.

418
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Speaker 1: I was so happy to do a deep dive into

419
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 1: all their lives. They're very fascinating women. You can see

420
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Speaker 1: why he was attracted to them. They were smart, and

421
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,640
Speaker 1: they had a quick wit about them, and you know,

422
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 1: they could hold their own with Robert Oppenheimer. And I

423
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: think that says a lot.

424
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Speaker 2: And for all his problems, he wasn't a big piece

425
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Speaker 2: of shit.

426
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,040
Speaker 1: No, not an overwhelming piece of shit or anything.

427
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Speaker 2: I mean, they're talking about the time period.

428
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Speaker 1: I know, Well that's I mean, there's some stories where

429
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 1: like he invited like a young female student over to

430
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 1: his house with Kitty at some point, and you know,

431
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 1: he's trying to entrance this girl, so he's kind of

432
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Speaker 1: saying cutting things about his wife. Oh so there's like

433
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 1: some some anecdotes like that. It's nothing so insane that

434
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 1: you'd be like, what a monster, you know what I mean,

435
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 1: But like it's just fifties husband shit, you know, like

436
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of I don't know. There was a

437
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 1: little bit too with Robert where I still admire him

438
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 1: in some ways, and I like that he was attracted

439
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 1: to women who were very strong and smart and had

440
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 1: a lot of personality and character. But he's also kind

441
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 1: of one of those guys who's very attracted to that,

442
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 1: and then once he's got them, he kind of wants

443
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: to stamp out those things about them right right, because

444
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: he's like, you're supposed to do something else now that

445
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 1: you're married to me, or now that you're you know

446
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,199
Speaker 1: what I mean. Like I'm not trying to say he's like,

447
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 1: don't work or something, but he just had an idea

448
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 1: about how it was supposed to be, and he didn't

449
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: have any problem with the way it worked. But so

450
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: these ladies are fully oppressed by their lives and he's

451
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 1: not really recognizing that.

452
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 2: We've come across that a lot in our history shows

453
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 2: sometimes where it's just, you know, we realize that these

454
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: people were just as much victims of the culture, Like

455
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 2: you know, he had it embedded in his head as

456
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 2: well as like, well, well, once we're married, you know,

457
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 2: men act a certain way, women act a certain way,

458
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: you know, And it's that same just perpetual systemic issue

459
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 2: that everyone's sort of born into. And I almost wish

460
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 2: that if if I could go back in time and

461
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 2: shake Robert Oppenheimer, if I could change one thing Robert

462
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 2: Appenheimer did, it'd be to let him understand that he

463
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: could be married to an intelligent woman who's his equal, right,

464
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 2: you know, That'd be the one thing I would change

465
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 2: about all the things in Robert Oppenheimer's life. Wow, Wow,

466
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: Like I don't want to go step in on butterflies

467
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 2: here so well.

468
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: And I think too, this is such an interesting like

469
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 1: this Berkeley enclave of like kind of rich, very intellectual,

470
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: sort of superior kind of academics that are all fucking

471
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 1: each other's wives. Yeah, you know, it's something very similar

472
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: to Bella Park or you know, any of these other

473
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: periods of time where it's like all these people are

474
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: together and they kind of aren't. The marriage about is

475
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: sort of you know with so it's even weirder that

476
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: it's like you maybe view marriage is like who's a

477
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 1: good partner for me, rather than whom I'm in love

478
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: with I'm passionate about or something. I can get that anytime,

479
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: but like who i'm as a good partner for me?

480
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure you ever really picked a good

481
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: partner for him? Quote unquote, and people certainly had their

482
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: opinions about Kitty being good or bad, you know, depending

483
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 1: on which part of the story you're in.

484
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

485
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 1: As and sometimes she was kind of, you know, a

486
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: bit of a distraction, so you know, but again it's

487
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 1: you can't divorce that from how they felt about living

488
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: their lives. I mean, fully, Gene committed suicide. I don't

489
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: think you had that much to do with Robert, you know,

490
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: it had a lot to do with everything else. You know,

491
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: it was or she was murdered, obviously by a children.

492
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: But I could tell it. I could see, I could

493
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: see her being if she was already that depressed, if

494
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: she was feeling that constrained, right, not that unusual. I mean,

495
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: Kitty's drinking problem probably had a lot to do with

496
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: that feeling too, which is another way to kill yourself, right,

497
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: just more slowly. I don't know. Well, Ruth's the only

498
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: one who fucking handle her shit. You got out, she did,

499
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: all right, handled.

500
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 2: It all right. Well, Okay, we talked about this story,

501
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 2: and there's more to talk about, because of course we

502
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 2: double featured, not on the same day, but the same weekend.

503
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,239
Speaker 2: We saw Barbie and Oppenheimer now we're going to take

504
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 2: a little break and we're gonna come back and just

505
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 2: the rest of the episode, we're going to talk about

506
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 2: those two movies. Whenever. We'll start with Oppenheimer since we

507
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 2: just learned his life, and then move on to Barbie.

508
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 2: But we just had such a good time and I

509
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 2: think such an interesting time watching both that we've got

510
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 2: a lot to say.

511
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 1: I know, right, Yeah, you could talk about those movies forever.

512
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's let's talk about those movies forever for

513
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 2: right after this commercial break, we'll be right back, all right,

514
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show, everybody.

515
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: You want to talk about Barbie and Oppenheimer. To the

516
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: double feature of the.

517
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 2: Year, the biggest double feature of the year, the two

518
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: movies that saved the box office this month. There's always

519
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 2: one that saves the box office every once in a while. Yeah,

520
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: but let's we saw both. We saw Barbie first, then

521
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 2: we saw Oppenheimer again. Seventy millimeters imax, big, huge, beautiful screen.

522
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: Since we just learned about Oppenheimer, let's start there. Okay, Okay,

523
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: first of all, I'll give you my Nolan background, because

524
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 2: I know a lot of people fellas especially who start

525
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: talking about Christopher Nolan movies can get a little into it,

526
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,959
Speaker 2: and I love Christopher nolan movies. I really do. The

527
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 2: Prestige Right and Dunkirk are among two of my favorite

528
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: of his movies. They're so good. I'll say it, you

529
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 2: know what, I'll say it, Okay. I love Nolan's Batman

530
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 2: trilogy and The Dark The Dark Knight is. It's great.

531
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 2: It's perfectly great.

532
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: I think we just got a thousand hang on, it's

533
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: so good.

534
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: I think when you pull Heath Fledger's performance out of

535
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 2: it and just look at it, you know, there's a

536
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 2: couple of messy parts, is all I'm saying. There's some

537
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 2: stuff that doesn't make sense, and I think morally it's

538
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 2: a little ambiguous and kind of wants to have its

539
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: cake and eat it too. Personally, I think Batman Begins

540
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: is my favorite of the trilogy. It's so good. Yeah,

541
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 2: but we're not here to talk about Batman. We're here

542
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 2: to talk about Oppenheimer. It's very Nolan in terms of

543
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: its direction. It clips along. I love the way that

544
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: his scenes don't end, they just bleed right into each other.

545
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: And I think that's a big part because of the

546
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: music doesn't cut at the end of a scene, it

547
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 2: keeps playing right into the next one. It's almost montage.

548
00:27:54,960 --> 00:28:00,120
Speaker 2: This for a historical biopic, This movie moves fast. And

549
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 2: that's what I was saying earlier about the IMAX, where

550
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 2: I'm like it was almost too big for me to

551
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: really dial in on what was being said and the

552
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 2: story that was happening. That I'm so glad we saw

553
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 2: it there because it was beautiful, But I kind of

554
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 2: want to watch it on my phone at a certain point, right,

555
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: it's be like zero distractions, blinders on, like, let me

556
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 2: only just look at this tiny little screen and hear

557
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 2: what they're saying, right, yeah.

558
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: Right, which he doesn't like you to hear what they're

559
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: saying all the time given the sound mixing. Yeah, sometimes

560
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: from an own film, I will say, I was he

561
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 1: doesn't do biopicks. Really, is this his only a biob.

562
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: This is his? I mean, yeah, I think it's only biopic.

563
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 2: It's his as far as I know. Second non fiction

564
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: after Dunkirk.

565
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.

566
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything else has been sort of sci fi or

567
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: you know, some sort of pseudo fantasy like The Prestige

568
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 2: or something which is kind of sci fi too.

569
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I would, Yeah, well I did really

570
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: like that he did this one, particularly because of his

571
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: little weird shit. He likes to play with time lines,

572
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: yeah that, you know, he always does that in his

573
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: movies in one way or another, either it's going backwards

574
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: or whatever. And in this one, you know, he's kind

575
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: of he's showing you the security hearing, He's showing you

576
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: Lewis Strauss's confirmation hearing, right, and then also of course

577
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: the Atomic project in the forties, so you're kind of

578
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: flipping between all of these different timelines and different periods

579
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: in this man's life. And what worked about it for

580
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: me is that, you know, you're kind of starting off

581
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: at the security hearing and they're all like, well, let's

582
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: look at this piece of shit that made the atomic bomb,

583
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: Like how you know you're real, you're this communist lover,

584
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: and they're really mean to him in this security hearing.

585
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: And then the next scene or as you say, the

586
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: next kind of part of the montage that sort of

587
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: bleeds directly into the next scene, somebody going, you're the

588
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: man to do this, and you have to. You're going

589
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: to save the world. You have to defeat Nazi Germany,

590
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: you know, like they're at they are really laying on

591
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: him for this project. So it's it kind of I

592
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: think it really does a good job at putting you

593
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: in his headspace, or his I guess Christopher Nolan's idea

594
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: of what his headspace must have been, where he's like,

595
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: I'm remembering very nearby in my mind, was y'all begging

596
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: me to do this? And now you're really pissed at

597
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: me for doing it? And I can't. I am too,

598
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: you know, but like I can't. I don't know how

599
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: to respond to this, and it's very frustrating and contradictory

600
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: and very scapegoaty feeling. Yeah, which, of course it's exactly

601
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: what he was. So I think he does a really

602
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: good job of kind of putting you in that mind space,

603
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: that psychological space totally.

604
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: And I think that's kind of what the movie is

605
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 2: mostly all about, because again we're not I don't think

606
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 2: the movie is here to answer these big questions. Was

607
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: it a good idea for the bomb? Was you know,

608
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: was it the right thing to do in terms of

609
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: you know, the argument? Of course, the largest argument is

610
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 2: by dropping the two A bombs on Japan, we stopped

611
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,719
Speaker 2: a land war that would have claimed many millions of lives. So,

612
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: but look where we are now, which of course is

613
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: kind of sort of at the end of the movie too,

614
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 2: what was the long term damage? Is that worth it?

615
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: But instead of trying to answer those questions, the movies

616
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: much more like, well, let's just look at this guy

617
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: and what might it have been like to be him?

618
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: What might it have been like to be the guy

619
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: who did that? How do you sit with that? How

620
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: do you live with that afterwards?

621
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: Yeah?

622
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 2: And then also at the same time, like you said,

623
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: the very people who were begging you to do it

624
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: have now turned around and said, how dare you sir?

625
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: Oh could you have done that?

626
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: What a monster? You must be crazy?

627
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's fascinating to the element of security that

628
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,719
Speaker 1: you're talking about a little earlier with in terms of

629
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: Russia was our ally, but everybody knew at some point

630
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: this war is going to end and they're not going

631
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: to be our ally anymore. Like there's it's not not

632
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: a question, you know, And so all of that kind

633
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: of hiding and fear from our own allies was a

634
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: real problem. Of course, you still had German scientists involved.

635
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: That was you know, literally I think he even says

636
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: in the movie anti Semitism is our best bet because

637
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: we can go get all these great German scientists that

638
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: are Jewish that are not allowed to work for Hitler.

639
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: Basically that Hitler's like, purge these guys. So he's like,

640
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: let's go get them and make them work for us.

641
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: Oppenheimer, yourself is Jewish. I don't think we mentioned that.

642
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,479
Speaker 1: That's right. He is Jewish. I only was a practicing no, no,

643
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: it's very religious, but he was Jewish. But there was

644
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: still a lot of feeling that like, oh, well, it

645
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: doesn't matter if Hitler sucks, and you know he sucks,

646
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: and you're very mad right now at your home still

647
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: your home country, and there's going to be that feeling

648
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: and you want to help your home country and not me.

649
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: So I don't know, you know, there's a lot of

650
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: that kind of like again distrust, I mean, straight up restraint,

651
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: you know, amongst all relationships. He had to be really careful.

652
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: And it's kind of a foreign feeling to me because

653
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: of the big war of our time, of course, is

654
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: the War of Iraq, and you know, we could not

655
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: be more distant from that war.

656
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: There is no the propaganda of the Iraq war was

657
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: don't even worry about it, guys, guys, we got this

658
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: over here. You know, support the troops, uh huh, put

659
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 2: the yellow ribbon on your car, buy stuff and yeah,

660
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 2: and that's and that's all you need to do, and

661
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 2: not this the World War two right mentality of we're

662
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: all in this together sacrifice. You know you're gonna feel

663
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,479
Speaker 2: it at home when we go off to war and

664
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 2: you dealing with that is you supporting your country? Right?

665
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 2: So different or even.

666
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: The sense of even you know, you're in the middle

667
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: of no, I don't know, you live in a small

668
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: town in Maryland or something, but people are still like

669
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: loose lips sink ships. Like you can't be talking about

670
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: stuff you hear on the news, right because you don't

671
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: know who you're talking to and who they're going to

672
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: tell and what they're going to say. And it was

673
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: just a lot of this like fear of spies listening.

674
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: And you know, it's just such a I had a hero,

675
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: I guess because we already had computers and they're like

676
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: everybody everything, I don't have to tap your phone or whatever.

677
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: You're telling me everything through like there whatever. But anyway,

678
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: it's just so weird to think about. It was such

679
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: a different paranoid such a paranoid time, and you get

680
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: caught up in that shit and it changes your behavior

681
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: a lot.

682
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 2: That was one of the things that was most interesting

683
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: about it to me. You know, I as the movie's

684
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 2: coming closer to coming out, all these little YouTube videos

685
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 2: are popping up. Is like the life of Robert Oppenheimer.

686
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 2: Here's why Oppenheimer's interesting, Here's what you need to know.

687
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 2: And I literally knew practically nothing about him and wanted

688
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: to go into the movie with that. Yeah, it was

689
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 2: like the movie I want to be totally surprised by

690
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: everything that happens here, and I was, and maybe had

691
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: hard time following some parts of it where I just

692
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 2: had to double back on the conversations. But it was

693
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 2: so interesting to see that paranoia and how it affected everyone,

694
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: and the eggshells everybody's on all the time, and the

695
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: challenges of not just you know, a they've got these

696
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 2: time limits, which I also didn't know either. We're it

697
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: was like the space race, like Russia's actually further ahead.

698
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 2: They've done things we haven't done yet, and we're going

699
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: to watch that and copy it and try and leapfrog

700
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 2: what their work that that's exactly what happened with the

701
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: space race. Russia was in space first, yeah, and we

702
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 2: leapfrog that to get to the moon. So that was

703
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 2: really fascinating to me. But then on top of that,

704
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: just the fact that while you're under this immense pressure,

705
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: you can't talk to anyone, you can't call your friends,

706
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: you can't even you have to live in our fake

707
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 2: little town we built. Just a nightmare I think to

708
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 2: be living in that time.

709
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 1: Well, and like when we see this in the movie,

710
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: a lot of complaints amongst the scientists who feel that

711
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: knowledge is global and they shouldn't have to hide their

712
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 1: discoveries from their Russian or German or Swiss.

713
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: Or whatever exactly.

714
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: Personally, respect this person I ranged from them. I used

715
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: their equations in my shit or whatever, and so they

716
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,959
Speaker 1: felt very strongly that like you should be I should

717
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: be able to share these things. And in addition to that,

718
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: they're not sharing with me. So I'm behind maybe what

719
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: they know, and that's putting me at a disadvantage of

720
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: my science, just pure science. I'm angry that I'm not

721
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: able to get the resources that I'm out there and

722
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: exchange these thoughts with these other brilliant people where I

723
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: know in these discussions we're both gonna see things or

724
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 1: come up with things that we wouldn't have come up

725
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: with on our own.

726
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:22,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

727
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: So it's like slowing me down. I feel really frustrated,

728
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: you know. But it was also a bit of a

729
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 1: hint when scientific community stopped sharing nuclear information. It was

730
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: a hint to every security department worldwide that oh, they're

731
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: working on a bomb. They're stopped sharing. Now I know

732
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: they're working on that shit. Ye, Like it was a clue,

733
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: so you had to be really careful.

734
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 2: Oh if we ever come back from that, I mean,

735
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 2: international community, I don't know what it was like before,

736
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 2: but it still feels like the same thing now, Like, no,

737
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 2: you can't trust anybody or sharing anything with anyone else.

738
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: I know, we're all just people trying to live on

739
00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 2: this stupid spinning marbled together. But that person slightly different

740
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: than me, so you know that means they're gonna stab

741
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 2: me in the back the first chance they get. Is

742
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 2: wild that kind of distrust, and you see that in

743
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 2: the movie as well. Yeah, I was also really fascinated

744
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 2: by that that there was people saying, like you said,

745
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: we've got to share information with each other. In fact,

746
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: a lot of people, of course, thought the whole point

747
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 2: of the A bomb is once they know we've built it,

748
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 2: they'll stop. There's no more war because who would get involved.

749
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 2: Was I'm not even gonna build one once you have one,

750
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: which is obviously a little arrogant to think, and of

751
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 2: course has time and again proven untrue. There's what doctor

752
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: Seus's butter battle book, right, there is no weapon big

753
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: enough to stop everyone from using weapons.

754
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: Right, or decide we don't want one of our own. Yeah,

755
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: you shouldn't get to press that button that destroys everything.

756
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 1: I get to press that button.

757
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: Yep, you know it's a pain in the ass. I

758
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 2: would love to talk about performances in this movie because

759
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 2: I think at the center of it all is the

760
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: cast and and you know what, I'll say it also,

761
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 2: I'll say this, I was a fan of Killian Murphy

762
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 2: before it was cool. Oh look, I'm.

763
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: Just saying, taste maker Eli in.

764
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: The House twenty eight days later comes out, Right, there's

765
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: gonna be people out there who like, yeah, he was

766
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 2: in stuff before that, you lose her. But twenty of

767
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: days later came out. I was obsessed with that movie.

768
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm not into zombie movies, even though

769
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 2: twenty eight Days Later is not a zombie movie. Also, yeah,

770
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 2: because they don't die. It's not about resor, it's not

771
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 2: about the living dead. In twenty eight Days Later, it's

772
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: just a rage virus. Oh yeah, so technically if I

773
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 2: push my glasses up on my nose here, it's not

774
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 2: a zombie movie. But anyway, I was like, this guy

775
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 2: is amazing and I want to watch everything that he's in. Yeah,

776
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 2: And at the time, I was like, uh, have you

777
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 2: guys heard of silly and Murphy because he's so cool,

778
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 2: and then learned, like five years later, that's pronounced Killian but.

779
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 1: Silly old Murphy, silly old Murphy.

780
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 2: Here's a little facto weight for you. All that blew

781
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,879
Speaker 2: my damn mind. Even as a Killian Murphy fan, Robert

782
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 2: Oppenheimer was tall. Yeah, I have always thought that Killian

783
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 2: Murphy was tall and slim. That man is five foot seven,

784
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 2: and there's nothing wrong with that. But he has a

785
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 2: very towering presence and he's actually shorter than my short

786
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 2: ass nine so short King Killian Murphy, kill Murphy. Yeah, incredible,

787
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,959
Speaker 2: that's probably the most mind blowing. That's probably the most

788
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: explosive piece of information that I got out of.

789
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: Oppenheimer, the most important thing I learned.

790
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: Because there's times where they shoot it. We talked about this.

791
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: There's times where they shoot it and he looks like

792
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 2: the tallest guy in the room, and there's times where

793
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 2: they shoot it and he looks like everyone is like

794
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: imposing on him and he's surrounded by giants.

795
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: Beautifully done, so good, because you it's again, it's so much.

796
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: I think really he was really trying to put us

797
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: in his brain, his perspective. It's not meant to be

798
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: an overarching perspective of nuclear whatever, whatever. It's literally this

799
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: guy and what he thought and felt during the time

800
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: and these various times in his life. And I thought

801
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: that that camera work worked beautifully for that, because when

802
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 1: he felt confident, he was the biggest guy in the room,

803
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: and when he felt like he was getting piled on,

804
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: he was the smallest. It was beautifully beautifully shown in

805
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: that way. And I will say I thought Killian Murphy

806
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: and Christopher Nolan did something that's very hard to do

807
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: with a biopic in that they did not make him

808
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: a hero or a villain. Yeah, I really, I think

809
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 1: that's so hard to do. If Usually with a biopick,

810
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: you kind of pick a side and you're like, I've

811
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: decided that this person's the protagonist, so anyway they're the

812
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: hero and everything they did was right and fine and whatever,

813
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: and like you might have feelings, but anyway, in this

814
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,439
Speaker 1: movie they were right to do it, and it's all great.

815
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 1: But in this case, I really I think they left it.

816
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: I think they both felt ambivalent about it in a way,

817
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: and they were like, this was just a human guy

818
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: who was in the middle of history and happened to

819
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 1: be the finger of destiny was placed on him. Like

820
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: it didn't have to be him. It was weird that

821
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: it was him. People were like General Groves chose probably

822
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 1: the worst guy in the world for it because they

823
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: had all these communist ties and he was a lefty

824
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 1: and he you know, like he wasn't the most brilliant

825
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: nuclear scientist there was.

826
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 2: Good at maths.

827
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: He's terrible at math, he was bad at lab. He's

828
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:32,240
Speaker 1: a theorist.

829
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 2: He's a theorist.

830
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so a lot of people were like, that's

831
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: a weird choice. But as you said, he was like

832
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: this guy's magnetic. People are going to follow him, and

833
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: that's what I need. And in the movie, Oppenheimer says,

834
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: I think you chose me because of my lefty association,

835
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: so you can control me. And I don't think he

836
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: was wrong about that either. I'm sure he saw it

837
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: as leverage right times. But anyway, I thought they both

838
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 1: did that really well in the writing and the performance

839
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: of kind of being like, this is a complicated individual.

840
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 1: He's not always right and he's not always wrong. He's

841
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: not a villain and he's not a hero. He was

842
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: a guy. You know, he's just a guy. And I

843
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 1: think that's really hard to do.

844
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 2: That's so interesting by that, Yeah, that you say that.

845
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about actors often who play, you know, wicked

846
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 2: characters in some way, shape or form. And the thing

847
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 2: you say is, well, I can't think they're evil. I

848
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 2: have to think that. I have to think like they do,

849
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: that my behavior is justified and I take these actions

850
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 2: because I think they're right. So I have to think

851
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: of myself as the hero or the good guy or something.

852
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 2: But this is Killian Murphy is playing a guy who

853
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 2: literally is questioning his own morals. Yes, am I a villain?

854
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 2: Am I a horrible person? Or am I or did

855
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 2: I do the right thing? I'm literally hearing it from

856
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 2: all sides, and I don't know myself. So I think

857
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 2: that's where that comes from in this movie, where it

858
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 2: is able to balance that so well, is probably both

859
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 2: of them not approaching this character as someone who thinks

860
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 2: he's doing the right thing, but quite the opposite of

861
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: a character who has absolutely no idea if he's done

862
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 2: the right thing or not right.

863
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: And also beautifully shot was his congratulations everyone, it works

864
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 1: and we dropped the bomb and it worked, and he

865
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 1: had to give this speech and I thought that was

866
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: really well done because he had such a and of

867
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: course he had his own personal like, fuck, I didn't

868
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:19,479
Speaker 1: didn't know it was going to kill this many people.

869
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: I didn't realize, you know, exactly the weight or the destruction,

870
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 1: the destructive power it would have. I knew it would

871
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: be big, but more people than I thought.

872
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 2: Whatever.

873
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: Also, he's looking at people who spent years with him

874
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: building this bomb, and they're proud of their achievement and

875
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: they should be proud of it, and he is proud

876
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: of it, and he's like, I just wish we could

877
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: have dropped it on the Nazis, because that's who the

878
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: fuck I was working against. I didn't gonna give a

879
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: shit about Japan, you know, so anyway, it was just

880
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: really well done to show him kind of being like

881
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: jovial and excited and his performance like great job. Everybody

882
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: did it, like ooh, patch yourself on the bag. We

883
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's not just about me, it's about you.

884
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: Everybody's so great whatever. And in his mind he is

885
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 1: freaking out like he is he is seeing the effects

886
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: of this bomb and and like not knowing, am I

887
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: proud of this?

888
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:12,959
Speaker 2: Is this good?

889
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: I don't know anymore?

890
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that it's I want to

891
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 2: get back to performances. But just you saying that makes

892
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: me think about this element of the movie of we

893
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 2: should I wish we'd dropped it on the Nazis. Yeah, right,

894
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 2: I think very deliberately in this movie, the word Japan

895
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 2: never comes up once until they say it's the target

896
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 2: for the bomb. And I think that must have been

897
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 2: so true of the mentality at the time, like, wait, Japan,

898
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 2: what I thought the whole thing was the Nazis. That's

899
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 2: kind of what we've been thinking on. But I think

900
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 2: that the scientists, Themselve Oppenheimer himself and all his team.

901
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 2: At this point, they're so seduced by their own creation,

902
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 2: right that they that they you get this to this

903
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: point where you're like, I just have to see if

904
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 2: I did it. I just have to know if we

905
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: succeeded and if it works, and I just have I

906
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 2: built the toy, now I have to use it, right

907
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 2: And so even they are in the moment excited about like,

908
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 2: we'll just drop it somewhere, and so the US has

909
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: And again there's a whole lot of history here to

910
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 2: unpack in terms of would Japan. A lot of a

911
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: lot of strategists say Japan never would have surrendered.

912
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: I also heard that they sued for peace before.

913
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: This dropped exactly obviously a big part of the movie too,

914
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 2: But but they so badly wanted to use it because

915
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: they could. And so this idea of Japan not even

916
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 2: coming up until they're at target, I think really speaks

917
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 2: to I sort of said this, but the mentality at

918
00:45:53,360 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 2: the time of just oh crap, the Nazis are surrendering. Well,

919
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 2: we got to do this somewhere, we got to show

920
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 2: the world, we got to show Russia was a big

921
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 2: part of it what we can do, And they said,

922
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: the first bomb is to show them we can do it.

923
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 2: The second bomb is to show them that we can

924
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 2: keep doing it. Horrible, horrible, And.

925
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: I guess they didn't really know the effects that the

926
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 1: radiation would have, the extra deaths that happened from the radiation,

927
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 1: or maybe they did.

928
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 2: Well, we had kitties studying the effects of radiation on

929
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 2: the blood, and I know that there were there was

930
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 2: an understanding that radiation was deadly afterwards too, but I

931
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: don't know. And I mean what they were how many

932
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 2: miles away from the test site.

933
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: Oppenheimer and the scientists were twenty.

934
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: Miles twenty miles away. They knew there was not just

935
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 2: the blast to worry about, but fallow up other shit.

936
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, very true. And we'll throw out there that

937
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: there are a lot of indigenous and people of Native

938
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: of New Mexico who are called down windows downwind of

939
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: the Trinity Test and have radiation poisoning from it, and

940
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: they have not been recompensed by the government in any way.

941
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: So they have still to this day within their community,

942
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: birth defects, all kinds of crazy shit from Trinity test itself.

943
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,479
Speaker 1: So there's not only in Japan was their fallout from

944
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 1: Robert Oppenheimer's and his team's invention, but also right here

945
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: in America and people are still trying to get justice

946
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: for that.

947
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, the movie does not go into this thing,

948
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: much like it doesn't go to the women of his life.

949
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 2: And there's a degree to which I forgive the movie

950
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 2: for that, because it is a singularly focused story. And

951
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,399
Speaker 2: I don't want Christopher Nolan to be the one who

952
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 2: comes out and says, you know, let me tell you

953
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: about what happened to the Native Americans out here, you know,

954
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 2: like it's not necessarily he's not going to necessarily do

955
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: a good job at that. True, he's telling the Oppenheimer's story.

956
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 2: I think the issue is that we're going to keep

957
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 2: seeing movies like Oppenheimer. Who's gonna make one that shows

958
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 2: us about the Downwinders or about these three women? You

959
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 2: know that that just should also exist in tandem, and

960
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 2: then we've got the full picture.

961
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: Right I Speaking of performances, I will say everyone everyone says,

962
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,439
Speaker 1: and everyone knows Christopher Nolan quote doesn't do women. He's

963
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: not great at writing women, not he very rarely has

964
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 1: them in his movies. If they're there, they're very they're

965
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: very limited.

966
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 2: It's often like a very important character with very little

967
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: screen time. They're like their significance to the heroes matters

968
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 2: so much. They're the only ones with any sense who

969
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 2: know what's going on, Like I'm thinking of Scarlett Johanson

970
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 2: and The Prestige for example, right, But at the same time,

971
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 2: the story is not revolve around them.

972
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: I think the criticism is that all his female characters

973
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: only exist in relation to the men what they're doing.

974
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,880
Speaker 1: And in the same in Oppenheimer, Yah, Jean's whole character

975
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: is that she was a I mean this and that

976
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: was a problem for him. You know Kitty's whole characters.

977
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: She's drunk and that's a problem for him. You know

978
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: Rufe's whole characters. I was fucking her and that was it, Like,

979
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: you know, there was there however they related to him,

980
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: that was it. They had no life outside of it.

981
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: And again, this is a very focused movie, and it

982
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: makes sense in a way to say, well, how did

983
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: they what was their thing with him? Specifically because I

984
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 1: don't have time to go follow Jean through her regular

985
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: daily routine while I'm trying to tell you about the

986
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: nuclear bomb. You know, I totally totally get that. It's

987
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: just I think what's strange in this film is that

988
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 1: he's clearly trying to address it a little bit. He

989
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 1: got two amazing actresses, Florence Pugh and Emily Blunt to

990
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,720
Speaker 1: play these women, and there's some scenes you know, he tried,

991
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 1: like you tried, but it's still so lacking. And particularly

992
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: Florence Pugh is such a phenomenal actress, and I felt

993
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: like she didn't really have that much to do with Jean.

994
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 1: Jean's scenes seemed to be the same thing each time. Yeah,

995
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: and have a lot of levels and sort of the

996
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 1: same with kitties. She's kind of the same every scene.

997
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 1: She was drunk and mad in every scene, and so

998
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: it was just kind of where was the softness. I

999
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: wanted to see what he fell in love with, but

1000
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: they liked to know him or you know, anything that

1001
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 1: made them more of a person instead of this is

1002
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: who he This is just the part they had to

1003
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: play in his life to make him who he was, Yeah,

1004
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: instead of this is a full person who affected him.

1005
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 2: You know, we have long known that me and Emily

1006
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 2: Blunt have a very special thing. I know, you and

1007
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 2: I know this. I'm pretty sure John Krasinski knows about it.

1008
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 2: But Emily Blunt and I have a very special thing

1009
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 2: between us, not unlike Oppenheimer and maybe Gene Or it's

1010
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 2: like this, we're both married, we're both happily with our

1011
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: but you know, but we can't not be in each

1012
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 2: other's lives. So a big point being I'm a big

1013
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 2: Emily Blunt fan. I think she's very talented, and I

1014
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 2: think she was very good in this movie. But at

1015
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 2: the same time, I did feel in the moment, and

1016
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 2: I do want to see it again and re examine this,

1017
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 2: but I felt in the moment like her shutting down

1018
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 2: the interview, her rob what's his name, the the Jason

1019
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 2: Clark's character, Yes, the security hearing, and her like absolutely

1020
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 2: destroying him was so well delivered. She did such a

1021
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 2: good job in that scene, and yet it felt unearned

1022
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: because like he comes, what does Oppenheimer say is like

1023
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 2: or is said about her like she's always.

1024
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: He says what Verna Hobson says, Basically, he's like, you

1025
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 1: don't know our relationship. She's my wife. We've been through

1026
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 1: fire together, been through fire, and she can pull herself

1027
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 1: together when you wouldn't think she could, but.

1028
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 2: Specifically that part We've been through fire together. In the moment,

1029
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, have you we haven't really seen that.

1030
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 2: There's that one scene where he was sad about Jeane's

1031
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 2: suicide and she walks up to him and says, play

1032
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 2: yourself together. And that's even what they flashed back to

1033
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 2: as he's saying we've been through fire together. And I

1034
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,959
Speaker 2: just felt like the movie lacked kind of, like you said,

1035
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 2: where is the passion in their relationship that led to

1036
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 2: this moment where she said, I'm gonna put my flask

1037
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 2: down and destroy all you guys for having the audacity

1038
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 2: to come after my man. He was one of the

1039
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 2: best people I know. Like we see a few scenes

1040
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 2: of her saying we need to fight harder, we need

1041
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 2: to fight harder. But I was so taken aback by

1042
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 2: that sudden turn from her that I felt like it

1043
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 2: was kind of out of nowhere, as opposed to being suggested,

1044
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 2: suggested and then yes and then revealed.

1045
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: I feel like it was she was so scornful and

1046
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: almost contemptuous of him in those moments where we need

1047
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: to fight, we need to fight. Yeah, that it was

1048
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,720
Speaker 1: It didn't read as you know, we're just a different

1049
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: personality from each other, and I'm angry on your behalf.

1050
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: It was like, I'm angry at you. And a lot

1051
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,439
Speaker 1: of the movie was her being angry at him. She's mad,

1052
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: she has a kid, she's mad, she don't know about this,

1053
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: she's mad about even the thing about pull yourself together,

1054
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: Like I guess that was something he needed from her,

1055
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: was for her to be that kind of person. It's like, hey,

1056
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:08,399
Speaker 1: I get it, you're sad, but you need to get

1057
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: it together. You're in the middle of something right now.

1058
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: But it was presented as look at this shrew, like

1059
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: like every time you saw her, she was kind of

1060
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 1: a shrew, and she was just sort of yelling and

1061
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, distracting and not a good presence. And

1062
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't see what makes her such

1063
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 1: a great partner for him. I don't understand. And as

1064
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: you say, when she does end up being a bad ass,

1065
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 1: she's like, where did that even come from? So, you know,

1066
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 1: it was it was a little uneven in those ways.

1067
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: I do wish that maybe even in the scene where

1068
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: they got together, there was a little more anything there.

1069
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, And then they just show them like

1070
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: riding horses, and I guess that's supposed to be the

1071
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 1: good times. Though they're pretty, but they don't give you

1072
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: much character development. So yes, although as you say, I

1073
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 1: did love how she performed that security hearing scene was

1074
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: really beautifully done. And I will say too, learning that

1075
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 1: Kitty did hold a grudge for the rest of her

1076
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: life against every single person who said a damn thing

1077
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 1: against him, including Edward Teller. When he gets his medal,

1078
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: he goes to shake his hand and Robert's like, sure,

1079
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: no hard feelings, but Emily was sitting there fucking glaring, no,

1080
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: no daggers, and that's clearly very true to life. She

1081
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: was straight up what to see Edward and like, why

1082
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 1: don't you make shit very dead?

1083
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? You said that. The robbers like, how dare you?

1084
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 2: What do you mean you shook his hand? Yes, the

1085
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 2: guy just sold you out right. Yeah. Yeah.

1086
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: So that was very well done. And I think Emily

1087
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: Blunt said she had a she deeply felt for this

1088
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: woman who was very sad and lonely. Yeah, and she

1089
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: drank a lot to address those feelings and stuff like that.

1090
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 2: So well, I think I think, you know, obviously we

1091
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 2: can say that Nolan, it's not his strongest storytelling element, right,

1092
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 2: romances and women and how they women and anything about.

1093
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: Them, anything about that.

1094
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 2: And on top of that, this is an incredibly complicated

1095
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 2: person who made for an incredibly complicated character. Yeah, so

1096
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 2: these things that we're not seeing, not getting, you know,

1097
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 2: might just be wrapped up in her complications. I do

1098
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,720
Speaker 2: agree that there's probably some some things in the movie

1099
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 2: that could have established something that had a better payoff

1100
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 2: in that moment. But but yeah, it's real hard to

1101
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 2: encapsulate somebody like Kitty without her own damn movie, which

1102
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 2: quite frankly, give me that Emily Blunt spin off, and

1103
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 2: I'm first, I'll watch, I'll do the seventy millimeters IMAX thing.

1104
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 1: I would do that there was bigger.

1105
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 2: Emily Blunt, the better.

1106
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: I've always said, there is actually a fun story about

1107
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 1: Kitty on Los Alamos, where she fucking was like, why

1108
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: don't you eat shit with your security protocol, got in

1109
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 1: the car, drove away from Los Alamos and went to

1110
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 1: a hotel bar for the nice So there were times

1111
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: Juice was like, why don't you just eat my dirt?

1112
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:03,840
Speaker 1: So she actually might be kind of a fun movie actually,

1113
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: if you really really wanted to try to pull down

1114
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 1: this character who is vivacious and lively and sharp tongued,

1115
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 1: like a witty person can often be very sharp, as

1116
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: we've learned with like Oscar Wild example, he was kind

1117
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 1: of a bitch like but he was, but that's what

1118
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: was witty. He was a bitchy, witty guy. So when

1119
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: he said to me, like, oh, that shit was funny,

1120
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: but it was totally a roaster. She might have been

1121
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:27,439
Speaker 1: a roaster, you know, in that way. But you don't

1122
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:29,760
Speaker 1: appreciate a female to roast the same way you appreciate

1123
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 1: a male to roast, you know what I'm saying, as

1124
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 1: little as you appreciate a male roast in you, you

1125
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,399
Speaker 1: know you definitely, women are supposed to be nice and kind, right,

1126
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 1: so and and whatever. So at any rate, fantastic performances

1127
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,879
Speaker 1: even with very little to work with, We'll say, because again,

1128
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 1: Florence Pew, I.

1129
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 2: Mean, forget, she's doing incredible things, very magnetic. I want.

1130
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 2: I've I've there's been a I've had my foot on

1131
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 2: the break with Florence Pew like ready to tap it,

1132
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 2: you know, ever since she sort of popped up. But

1133
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,919
Speaker 2: I've been like, oh, she's you know, the new hunt thing. Well,

1134
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 2: we'll see. I'm always skeptical of public opinion because I

1135
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 2: just think everyone's wrong. But me so I don't know

1136
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,879
Speaker 2: what I'm getting at here. Point is she has consistently

1137
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 2: amazed me and checked my hesitations numerous times because she's

1138
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 2: always good. She is. She's always very.

1139
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 1: Good killer And as you said, Kelly and Murphy, amazing,

1140
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 1: just did a fantastic job.

1141
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 2: I want to rush to our Barberie review so real quick,

1142
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 2: just let's just we've talked about the movie a lot.

1143
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 2: Let's just hammer down a couple performances real quick. Obviously

1144
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 2: we talked about the Big three, but let's talk Robert

1145
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 2: johniy Junior coming in and reminding us why he's one

1146
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 2: of the greats.

1147
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 1: Just Healy crushed it fantastic.

1148
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1149
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: There are so many moments where he just did something

1150
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 1: so subtle, Oh my god, just something so little, and

1151
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 1: I was like, you just gave me so much in

1152
00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 1: that little moment, and I admire it so much, Like

1153
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 1: when he said, oh, you were just a lowly shoe salesman,

1154
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 1: and Lewis Draus goes just as two salesman and he's

1155
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: smiling but his eyes are fucking furious. He just does it.

1156
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 1: It's it's such a little moment, but it was so good,

1157
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 1: and there's few of those.

1158
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 2: The way he pronounces his plosives in that movie, like

1159
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 2: his p's and b's were diff I know Robert Downey

1160
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 2: Junior's voice pretty well after twelve years of MCU and

1161
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 2: and he was speaking just this with this subtle difference.

1162
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 2: That was just like, you're embodying a different person right now.

1163
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 2: And I was so amazed by that.

1164
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: Yes, he was really great.

1165
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 2: And may I say, where the hell has Josh Hartnett

1166
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 2: been all this time?

1167
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: I was so excited. And he looks different. He looks

1168
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: he looks great me, but he looks different than when

1169
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 1: he was pretty boy, young, younger or whatever. But he

1170
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 1: I thought he did a fantastic so.

1171
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 2: Good, so good. I was just like, I never knew

1172
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 2: what to think about him. He's all over the place.

1173
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, he's bestie, he's he's right there

1174
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 2: with you. Wait a minute, no, this guy's a fascist.

1175
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, no, he's got your back. But it

1176
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 2: was just all over the place in a really good way.

1177
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was his character was apparently he was really

1178
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 1: against union organizing. Yeah, so that's what was his big problem. Yeah.

1179
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 1: But and of course communa he was surely communist kind

1180
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 1: of guy. But but I didn't really get the impression

1181
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 1: from the movie that he had like a long list

1182
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 1: of grievances and would be spreading rumors about Oppenheimer and stuff.

1183
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: I was kind of a surprise to see about Ernest

1184
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: Lawrence in the research.

1185
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 2: I did kind of get that impression a little bit.

1186
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 2: I did. Yeah, I felt like he not unlike Straws,

1187
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 2: was like he was a little more side by side

1188
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 2: with Oppenheimer so much that he sort of had to

1189
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 2: be had had a positive working relationship with him. But

1190
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 2: it felt like there was something in there that was like, God,

1191
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 2: but oh, I just can't wait to punch this guy

1192
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 2: in the face. Though too like he was. I think

1193
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 2: he was a little jealous of Oppenheimer. I think he

1194
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 2: was resentful of his success, despite the fact that he

1195
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 2: was like, but you're the You're I'm meeting with government

1196
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 2: people about what a problem you are, and they gave

1197
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 2: you the Manhattan Project. Yeah, so I thought there was

1198
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 2: I picked up elements of that. Yeah, sure.

1199
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 1: Well, anyway, Josh Hartnett, great.

1200
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 2: Job, great job, Josh Hark.

1201
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 1: I think at one point you leaned over and you're like,

1202
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: every white man with a SAG card is in this movie,

1203
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 1: and that is so true.

1204
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 2: And the rest of SAG was next door working on Barbie.

1205
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 2: Which brings us to the other movie we saw this

1206
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 2: past weekend. And we will take our last break for

1207
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 2: this episode, and we'll come back right after this and

1208
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 2: talk all about Greta Gerwigg's incredibly pink movie.

1209
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: Barbie, the pinkest movie ever.

1210
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And of course goes to that saying

1211
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 2: we're talking about the movie here is spoiler alerg rightpoilers. Yeah,

1212
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 2: we'll be right.

1213
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:05,000
Speaker 1: Hi. Barbie's welcome back to the show.

1214
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 2: Perfect. Okay, So Barbie opening night, we went Thursday with

1215
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 2: a bunch of friends because they we thought we weren't

1216
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 2: going to get in because the whole weekend was sold out,

1217
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 2: and then they added a show time. Yay, we managed

1218
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 2: to squeeze in Thursday night.

1219
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 1: All right, And I'm gonna tell y'all, I'm a fan

1220
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: of Barbie. I love Barbie's, loved plan with Barbie's had

1221
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 1: a billion Barbies, loved them. I still have them in

1222
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: my parents' house. They're always asked me to come get them.

1223
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:33,959
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it. Their house is bigger

1224
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 1: than mine and they have more storage sorry sorry, more

1225
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:39,439
Speaker 1: storage space over there. I'll try one day, but y'all

1226
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 1: are gonna hold on. But anyway, so I was like

1227
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 1: already sold on the Barbie Movie. Like I was like,

1228
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to the Barbie Movie. So I'm very happy

1229
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 1: we got to see it opening night, and it was

1230
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:53,439
Speaker 1: It's such an interesting double feature because, you know, one hand,

1231
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 1: you have this dark movie, historic movie with basically nothing

1232
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 1: but men in it doing man thing being men. And

1233
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 1: then you have this movie with so many women in it,

1234
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 1: and it's women being women and they're on top of

1235
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 1: them there in the center of the story and the

1236
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: center of the world, and they're the center of everything.

1237
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 1: So it was very kind of interesting to see them

1238
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 1: both at the you know, so close to one another,

1239
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 1: right and for that, especially after leaving, you know, leaving Openhimer, Like, man,

1240
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: those ladies didn't get nothing. They should have been the

1241
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 1: Barbie movie. Yeah, they would have gotten more story. Anyway,

1242
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: I very much enjoyed the Barbie Movie.

1243
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I loved it. Super fun. And I'll say

1244
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 2: my relationship with Barbie is limited, but not non existent.

1245
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 2: I remember as a as very young. I was I

1246
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 2: don't know, six years, seven years old something like that,

1247
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 2: and my older sisters were playing with Barbie's and I

1248
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 2: was younger and had my own Kendall except his name

1249
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 2: was George.

1250
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know, why did you named him George?

1251
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,280
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I named it. It was no like

1252
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 2: I named him George. It was like this guy's name.

1253
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 2: They were like, here's here's a ken and I was like, cool,

1254
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 2: what's his name? Uh, George. And so when I wanted

1255
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 2: to play with my sisters, whom I my own respect

1256
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 2: very much, they were like, Okay, you're the neighbor and

1257
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 2: we're going to invite you over later. So you sit

1258
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 2: in your house, which is in your room, and then

1259
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 2: we'll invite you over later. And cut two little six

1260
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 2: year old sitting in my room with my little George doll,

1261
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 2: just waiting waiting for that invitation. And maybe I don't

1262
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 2: know in my mind, it was weeks went by. It

1263
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 2: was probably ten minutes before I was like, I don't

1264
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 2: think they're gonna invite me and getting really upset. So

1265
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 2: that's that's my Barbie memory. That's how it went for me,

1266
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 2: I was I was more enamored with my thrift store,

1267
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:54,840
Speaker 2: my Little Ponies, what I had with their Neon colors

1268
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. So and of course I had

1269
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 2: some like cool Ninja turtles. So I had a real

1270
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 2: mishmash of toys and dolls and action figures and stuff

1271
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 2: that I played with, but a little bit of Barbie.

1272
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 2: And I will say I was skeptical from the trailer,

1273
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 2: not because I thought it looked bad or I didn't

1274
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:21,960
Speaker 2: like the colors or anything like that. I was thinking,

1275
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if Greta Gerwig and No Bombback No

1276
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 2: Comedy skillfully enough to pull off you know that what

1277
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 2: I feel like is looking like it's supposed to be

1278
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 2: a very funny movie. And I don't know them to

1279
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 2: have a big history with comedy, and I'll say I'm

1280
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:41,520
Speaker 2: not that familiar with either of them, but just looking

1281
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 2: at their IMDb and watching the trailer, I was like,

1282
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 2: I'm nervous that a lot of these jokes are gonna

1283
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 2: fall flat despite the very cool world it looks like

1284
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:50,959
Speaker 2: it takes place. And I'll say I laughed my ass

1285
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 2: off that whole movie hilarious. It was very funny and

1286
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 2: I was wrong to question that, and.

1287
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 1: A lot of that to do with the performances, I

1288
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 1: think too, because Ryan Gosling was so funny, like he

1289
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,240
Speaker 1: really brought a lot to the role. I thought Margot

1290
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 1: Robbie was amazing. Oh my god, everyone's talk about Ryan

1291
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 1: Gosling and they should again. He did an amazing job

1292
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 1: and he was really really funny. But Margot Robbie brought

1293
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 1: such a humanity. Yeah, she was so real and I

1294
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 1: just loved it. I just thought she did an amazing job.

1295
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 1: I really thought she was incredible.

1296
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 2: I feel a little badly for her right now because

1297
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 2: and she she'll be fine, but but I feel, like

1298
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 2: so many people, it's so much easier to be impressed

1299
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 2: by what Ryan Gosling was doing because his was big

1300
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 2: and comedic and like he has all these very stylized

1301
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 2: performance deliveries and stuff where it's quotable and stand out

1302
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 2: and noticeable, and what Margaret Robbie doing is so much

1303
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:03,320
Speaker 2: more subtle and like you said, real and human, and

1304
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 2: you don't notice that as much. By definition, she's doing

1305
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 2: a good job because it's not sticking out right, And

1306
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 2: so now I'm like, it's the Barbie movie, which is

1307
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 2: kind of about this, and everybody's talking about Ryan Gosling, right,

1308
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 2: that's upsetting to me for on her behalf because I'm

1309
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:27,600
Speaker 2: like she, I think honestly did a more impressive job

1310
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 2: at doing something that doesn't stick out at you.

1311
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:32,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think.

1312
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 2: And America Ferrara too, I thought was also yes, awesome,

1313
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 2: But I also have a little bit of America Frere

1314
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 2: and I also kind of have a deep passionate history together.

1315
01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 1: El has a real dog, y'all. He's got a lot

1316
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: of girls. I'll say, Margaret Robbie's.

1317
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 2: In my on your list, on my list.

1318
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 1: I love Margaret Robbie.

1319
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 2: And I would be jealous of you, not for you,

1320
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 2: like you know what I mean, Like, I wouldn't be like,

1321
01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 2: how dare you? I'd be like, how dare you? Why

1322
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 2: not me? I'm well.

1323
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 1: No, but yeah, I just thought, yeah, I thought everybody

1324
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: and it was for first of all, everyone in it

1325
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 1: was having a blast, which is really fun to watch.

1326
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 1: I mean, it just makes it so much more fun

1327
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:19,200
Speaker 1: to watch. I really enjoyed the idea of a land,

1328
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 1: Barbie Land, you know, you know, completely run by Barbie.

1329
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,360
Speaker 1: The cans are not important, They're They're just there, you know,

1330
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:32,720
Speaker 1: to be Kens. There's even like some Barbie show on

1331
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 1: I don't even know what network, but it's some Barbie

1332
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:39,040
Speaker 1: show anyway, and they show they show this little clip

1333
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 1: of Ken being like, well, Barbie has so many jobs

1334
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 1: and I just don't have any job, Like what am I?

1335
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 2: What do I even do?

1336
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 1: And he goes, I'm Barbie's boyfriend. That's my job, you know.

1337
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 1: So it's like very common for Ken to be given

1338
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 1: this kind of ideal of like, that's my job, beach

1339
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:56,240
Speaker 1: I do peach or what I and that's what I do,

1340
01:07:57,360 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 1: and I just I think that's really fun and it

1341
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 1: was fun to sort of lp it on its head.

1342
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:02,960
Speaker 1: Of course, that's the point, right, is that they come

1343
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 1: to the real world and they find that women don't

1344
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 1: run the world and all the men are not himbos

1345
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 1: running around trying to make the women happy with them.

1346
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 1: It's very much the opposite. And so then Ken learns

1347
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 1: about patriarchy, brings it to Barbieland and changes everything in

1348
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:22,679
Speaker 1: barbie Land, and all the Barbies are now skimpily clad,

1349
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, serve and drinks and yeah, subservient, and the

1350
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:29,680
Speaker 1: Kens are all very excited about patriarchy because they get

1351
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:31,599
Speaker 1: to be in charge of things and have their Instead

1352
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:33,000
Speaker 1: of a dream house, they get to have a mojo

1353
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:36,600
Speaker 1: dojo kasa house or whatever. So then they have to

1354
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 1: write the Barbie land, right, that's the movie to write

1355
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 1: barbieland get it back to Barbie's in charge. And we

1356
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 1: did you know, we're feminists ourselves, and we have a

1357
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:50,559
Speaker 1: lot of feminist friends that are very deep in the

1358
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:53,320
Speaker 1: theory and they have been studying feminism for many, many,

1359
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: many many years. Right, So we have some friends that

1360
01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:59,840
Speaker 1: are kind of like in the Barbie movie, not that great, right,

1361
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:04,240
Speaker 1: feminist wise, it's very simplict like Baby's First feminism. Yeah, yeah,

1362
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:07,519
Speaker 1: and it is. There's definitely if you read any theory,

1363
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:09,680
Speaker 1: a lot of the things that are said in the

1364
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 1: film you've heard a thousand times yea, like America Frere's

1365
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 1: big speech for example, in the film, I have heard

1366
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 1: a variation of since college. Right, So I was like, yeah, yeah, obviously,

1367
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 1: So that can be a little off putting, I guess

1368
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,479
Speaker 1: if you're watching it for feminist reasons, I guess.

1369
01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 2: Or if you're really first disappointing that it's like so

1370
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:35,559
Speaker 2: basic you were hoping for something more little dechallenging for yourself.

1371
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, profound or something like that, And I totally understand that,

1372
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 1: and it's completely valid. I thought it worked though, because

1373
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:45,599
Speaker 1: the whole conceit throughout is that Barbie and Barbie Land

1374
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:47,679
Speaker 1: they're being played with, right, So for example, she doesn't

1375
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 1: walk down the stairs, she floats because you just take

1376
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:51,240
Speaker 1: your Barbie and you pick her up and you put

1377
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:52,599
Speaker 1: her wherever you want her to be when you play

1378
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:55,800
Speaker 1: with her. So they're very much leaning into that people

1379
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 1: are being played with. This is the playing this is

1380
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 1: the playing situation. So it kind of worked for me

1381
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 1: because it was like it was simplistic and straightforward in

1382
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:07,719
Speaker 1: the way that oh, no, Barbie Lands, Barbie's been taken

1383
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:11,360
Speaker 1: over by the patriarchy. I know, we'll speak truth to power,

1384
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:13,880
Speaker 1: and then by the time your playtime is over, everything

1385
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 1: is fixed and everything is fine. And it took very

1386
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 1: little and it wasn't hard. Yeah, that's playtime, right, So

1387
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 1: it kind of worked for me on that level. And

1388
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:22,759
Speaker 1: I was like, there's a lot of people who don't

1389
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:26,240
Speaker 1: read feminist theory since college that haven't heard all this shits,

1390
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:28,800
Speaker 1: and it was probably still very revelatory for a lot

1391
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 1: of watchers. So I'm okay, if you need to welcome

1392
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 1: Matt to feminism, make it hot pink, I'm fine with that.

1393
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 2: That's what I'm thinking too about America Ferrera's character. This

1394
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 2: is not a woman who necessarily has read a bunch

1395
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 2: of feminist theory and has heard all these arguments before.

1396
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:48,800
Speaker 2: She's literally discovering and saying that. It's not that she's

1397
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:50,640
Speaker 2: discovering her for the first time. She's known it and

1398
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:53,920
Speaker 2: never had someone to express it too. Yes, and now

1399
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 2: she's in this place she's like, hang on, let me

1400
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 2: tell you what I think and lays out something that

1401
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:01,080
Speaker 2: may sound very foundational to someone. She's not a scholar.

1402
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:04,320
Speaker 2: She's a mom with a job like she's She's someone

1403
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 2: who would just let me articulate this any way I can,

1404
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 2: so that these brainwashed people can also hear it and

1405
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 2: be woken up a little bit. So I think by

1406
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 2: its nature it should be kind of simple in its ideology,

1407
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:21,680
Speaker 2: like a foundational understanding of it.

1408
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:24,920
Speaker 1: It made sense to me, Yeah, I didn't, It didn't.

1409
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:26,240
Speaker 1: It didn't. I mean at the time when I was

1410
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:28,400
Speaker 1: watching it, I was like, all right, Greta Gerwig, I

1411
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 1: know you know more than this this is like Twitter

1412
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:36,439
Speaker 1: twitter stuff. But again then having seen it still really

1413
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I was like, fine, whatever, And then I

1414
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:41,720
Speaker 1: was reading a lot of reactions and there were a

1415
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 1: lot of women older than me, younger than me, who

1416
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 1: were like when they said that, I cried When America

1417
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:50,799
Speaker 1: Ferrera had that speech, I cried. It was so amazing

1418
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 1: to hear finally, for the first time someone say that,

1419
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:56,639
Speaker 1: and it was like, oh wow, I never really thought

1420
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:58,760
Speaker 1: about my life that way, or I never really you know,

1421
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:04,040
Speaker 1: literally it was working in in real time for some

1422
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:08,960
Speaker 1: people that didn't don't don't aren't familiar with that thinking. So, uh,

1423
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:11,439
Speaker 1: that was fine with me. That was fine with me.

1424
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 1: But I do get the criticism, of course, Oh for sure,

1425
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 1: that was fine with me.

1426
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:17,920
Speaker 2: Sure it's not a flawless movie, and it's not gonna

1427
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:21,280
Speaker 2: fix all the world's problems, but hopefully it will, you know,

1428
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:24,599
Speaker 2: give people something to think about. Yeah, I mean, I'll

1429
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 2: say my my biggest challenge was probably actually in the

1430
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:30,680
Speaker 2: real world. The executives and we talked about this a

1431
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:32,760
Speaker 2: little bit, the Will Ferrell's character and all them like

1432
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:36,640
Speaker 2: they were so I think Ryan George said it on

1433
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:40,719
Speaker 2: pitch meeting. He's like all the Mattel executives who want

1434
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:43,800
Speaker 2: to eat their cake but also have their cake. Yeah,

1435
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:46,240
Speaker 2: you know, it was like they were point in one

1436
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 2: in one aspect, they're the problem, right, Like there's all

1437
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 2: these men running this company for girls dolls don't know

1438
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:59,719
Speaker 2: no better, and they're reinforcing all these negative stereotypes, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

1439
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 2: So they're kind of the bad guys, but they're presented

1440
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:05,200
Speaker 2: as so dopey and silly.

1441
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:06,719
Speaker 1: And and well.

1442
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:10,880
Speaker 2: Intentioned and unrealistic. We moved from Barbie's fantasyland into the

1443
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:13,519
Speaker 2: real world, and most of the men they meet in

1444
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 2: the real world are some exaggerated version of and are

1445
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 2: not not so much exaggerated of. You know, the worst

1446
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:21,160
Speaker 2: kind of man you meet on the street, cat callers

1447
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:24,160
Speaker 2: and ass slappers and you know, all these like kind

1448
01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:26,919
Speaker 2: of gross dudes. And then they show up at Mattel

1449
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:29,759
Speaker 2: and we're back in a fantasy like these aren't realistic

1450
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:32,480
Speaker 2: characters anymore. Ken they're basically.

1451
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:34,599
Speaker 1: Kenny Himbo's Yeah, they're they're kind of Ken life.

1452
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:36,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they when they go to Barbie Land

1453
01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:42,000
Speaker 2: and it's funny, but it's feels unnecessary. It feels wedged in, Yeah,

1454
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:44,240
Speaker 2: and I don't feel like they got the right lesson

1455
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:46,719
Speaker 2: out of it, or or at least not an effective

1456
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:48,639
Speaker 2: version of whatever they were trying to do with those guys.

1457
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:52,240
Speaker 1: I agree. I feel like the Metel executives were completely pointless. Really,

1458
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:55,080
Speaker 1: they they really had nothing ye to do with anything.

1459
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:56,840
Speaker 1: I think if you took them out, it wouldn't really

1460
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:57,960
Speaker 1: change the mood very much.

1461
01:13:58,040 --> 01:13:58,519
Speaker 2: It wouldn't.

1462
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:01,559
Speaker 1: But you know, well, also keeping in mind that this

1463
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:06,160
Speaker 1: isn't a Tel person exactly. Uh maybe Baby's Furst feminism

1464
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:09,640
Speaker 1: and goofy fun well intentioned and Metel execs where we

1465
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 1: do point out there's not enough women in here, not

1466
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:13,600
Speaker 1: as far as they were letting her go, you know

1467
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:16,080
Speaker 1: what I mean, So I do. I do keep that

1468
01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:17,960
Speaker 1: in mind. It's not like it was gretit Ger who

1469
01:14:18,040 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 1: was like, I'm coming after me till you know, like,

1470
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 1: but they were definitely, I thought, pretty pretty useless.

1471
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:30,120
Speaker 2: I also felt, I'll give my my male perspective.

1472
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:32,880
Speaker 1: Here for thank God, finally thanks.

1473
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 2: Someone's giving it. But no, really, I think from my perspective,

1474
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:40,559
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed the what I felt like they were

1475
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:45,120
Speaker 2: saying with this patriarchy takeover of Barbie Land, where it

1476
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:50,599
Speaker 2: wasn't exclusively like men are awful and you give them

1477
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:52,599
Speaker 2: a chance and they'll just all turn into the worst

1478
01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:56,439
Speaker 2: douchebags in the world. Theirs was and this was I

1479
01:14:56,520 --> 01:15:00,679
Speaker 2: think highlighted in Barbie and Ken's conversation near the end,

1480
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 2: largely a reaction to how they'd been treated in their

1481
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:08,839
Speaker 2: world up to that point, Like the reason the Kens

1482
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:13,200
Speaker 2: went so far in the wrong direction was because they

1483
01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:15,680
Speaker 2: had not been allowed to have any agency of their

1484
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 2: own for so long, right, so they are, you know,

1485
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:23,040
Speaker 2: treated as objects for Barbie totally at the at their mercy,

1486
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:25,880
Speaker 2: and they don't really have their own full identities or

1487
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,960
Speaker 2: anything like that. They're basically just dolls, these hymbos, and

1488
01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:31,599
Speaker 2: so when presented with like, well you could have power,

1489
01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:35,120
Speaker 2: they go a little overboard with it. They go very

1490
01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:38,800
Speaker 2: overboard with it. And I to me that felt like

1491
01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:44,200
Speaker 2: the lesson in there is not just like these men

1492
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:48,960
Speaker 2: that act like this are monsters, obviously, and the cruelty

1493
01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 2: they did towards Barbie's is unacceptable, but also how we

1494
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 2: treat each other informs our reactions to that, right, and

1495
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:03,360
Speaker 2: so there was something for Barbie to learn too, And

1496
01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 2: I think that parallels back into the real world when

1497
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:11,040
Speaker 2: men get all angry about how reactive feminists are or

1498
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:14,960
Speaker 2: how like you know that that ideology is so extreme,

1499
01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:17,200
Speaker 2: It's like, well, what do you want? How look at

1500
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:19,559
Speaker 2: the lives these people have had to live for so long.

1501
01:16:20,439 --> 01:16:23,439
Speaker 2: Of course they want to move quickly and rapidly in

1502
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:27,600
Speaker 2: the other direction. And maybe you might feel like that's overshooting,

1503
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:30,800
Speaker 2: But what do you expect from someone who hasn't had

1504
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 2: any agency their whole lives?

1505
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 1: Right?

1506
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:33,600
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah?

1507
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:36,840
Speaker 1: And I like too that it was patriarchy was as

1508
01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 1: much of a brainwash for them, yes, as it was

1509
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 1: for the Barbiees, Like they they were fully taken in

1510
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 1: and Ken's like, as soon as I found out was

1511
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:48,479
Speaker 1: about I didn't really care. I thought that was so funny,

1512
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:51,360
Speaker 1: Like that was so funny. And I think that's good

1513
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:54,000
Speaker 1: because it shows like patriarchy was hurting them too, even

1514
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:55,640
Speaker 1: when they were in charge of everything. They were like

1515
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:57,760
Speaker 1: I just missed my friend Barbie, and I don't know

1516
01:16:57,760 --> 01:17:00,160
Speaker 1: what to do, And you know, like they didn't like

1517
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:03,520
Speaker 1: it really, I mean, you know, they were pretty uncomfortable

1518
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,160
Speaker 1: after a while, I think, and it was just not

1519
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:08,200
Speaker 1: how they wanted to live. They wanted to be with

1520
01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:10,559
Speaker 1: Barbie and have a good time with Barbie, Like that was,

1521
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 1: you know, why do I need her to be over

1522
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:18,000
Speaker 1: here underneath me in order to feel like a full Ken?

1523
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:22,720
Speaker 1: I am kanough or But you know, I thought that

1524
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:25,360
Speaker 1: was that was well done, or at least I thought

1525
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:27,720
Speaker 1: that was a big point. Part of that point, I

1526
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:30,200
Speaker 1: think was to show like this is harming them as

1527
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:33,280
Speaker 1: much as it's harming the Barbie is either way, you're

1528
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:37,360
Speaker 1: caught up in a way of thinking that isn't serving you,

1529
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:40,639
Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that. So I thought that was that.

1530
01:17:40,600 --> 01:17:42,960
Speaker 2: Worked really well.

1531
01:17:43,960 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 1: I had issues with some of the Ruth Handler stuff

1532
01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:51,680
Speaker 1: at the end. So when Barbie is saying, I'm you know,

1533
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 1: not done, like my story is not and Mattell's like, well,

1534
01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:56,519
Speaker 1: you're in love with Ken, that's your story, and she's like, well,

1535
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 1: I'm not in love with Ken, So I was my

1536
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:01,080
Speaker 1: story right? And so so then she meets Ruth Handler,

1537
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:06,360
Speaker 1: and Ruth Handler's like she says the line mothers stand

1538
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:10,080
Speaker 1: still so our daughters can look back and see how

1539
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:13,160
Speaker 1: far they've come, or something paraphrasing something like that.

1540
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:14,160
Speaker 2: I think that's pretty much it.

1541
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:17,680
Speaker 1: And I disliked that line I'm not a mother, so

1542
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:21,000
Speaker 1: feel free to write to me and tell me why

1543
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:22,840
Speaker 1: I'm wrong about this. But I did not like the

1544
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:25,679
Speaker 1: idea that moms once they have a kid, stand still

1545
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:30,479
Speaker 1: and don't do anything, or don't achieve anything right, or

1546
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 1: don't continue to work on themselves or their lives because

1547
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:36,640
Speaker 1: it's all about their daughter now or something. I just

1548
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:39,439
Speaker 1: didn't really think that sentiment worked for me. It didn't

1549
01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 1: land it. Sort of that idea is why I don't

1550
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 1: want kids. Why I think a lot of people don't

1551
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:48,400
Speaker 1: want kids is because of that idea. And I saw

1552
01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:50,400
Speaker 1: a lot of women say they loved that line and

1553
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:52,120
Speaker 1: they thought it was amazing and it brought to you

1554
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:54,599
Speaker 1: to their eyes. So maybe I'm missing something.

1555
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:56,800
Speaker 2: But well, I'm sure it depends on your perspective too.

1556
01:18:56,840 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 2: I'm sure a lot of mothers feel like I put

1557
01:18:59,880 --> 01:19:03,000
Speaker 2: some shit down, yeah, so that you know, my daughter

1558
01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:06,479
Speaker 2: could get further than I did, and you know I

1559
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:09,080
Speaker 2: set my career aside to raise her. Whatever. I mean.

1560
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:13,600
Speaker 2: The women have such a more complicated, uh life to

1561
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:17,240
Speaker 2: lead as a parent in a lot of ways, in

1562
01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:20,679
Speaker 2: a lot of the traditional sense, like, well, I guess

1563
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:23,840
Speaker 2: my it's default assumption that if someone's career has got

1564
01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:27,400
Speaker 2: to go. It's mine, right, So you know that's where

1565
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:30,519
Speaker 2: I'm seeing. I guess where you could find something relatable

1566
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 2: in that line, but I do think it's such a

1567
01:19:33,360 --> 01:19:36,599
Speaker 2: I agree with you that it's so bluntly stated as

1568
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:40,120
Speaker 2: a rule, right that it's it's a little disheartening.

1569
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:42,680
Speaker 1: Well, and to tie it back to Oppenheimer, is that

1570
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:45,439
Speaker 1: not why Kitty was the way she was. Yeah, because

1571
01:19:45,479 --> 01:19:47,960
Speaker 1: she had to stand still for other people and did

1572
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:50,120
Speaker 1: not get to become a botanist like she wanted, and

1573
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:52,519
Speaker 1: not get her PhD. And I know she chose her

1574
01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:54,680
Speaker 1: She made her choices too. She said, I'm not going

1575
01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 1: to go after this PhD. She did her thing. Sure,

1576
01:19:57,439 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to take that away, but that is

1577
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:02,559
Speaker 1: part of what made her so mad, I think, and

1578
01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:06,360
Speaker 1: feel so constrained in her life. Was once you're a

1579
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:09,200
Speaker 1: wife and mother, that's what you are. You don't get

1580
01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:12,200
Speaker 1: to have something else. So that line kind of frustrated

1581
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:15,200
Speaker 1: me on that level. Again, maybe I'm missing something because

1582
01:20:15,240 --> 01:20:18,800
Speaker 1: I'm not a parent myself, but I had trouble with

1583
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:22,679
Speaker 1: that line. And I also kind of hated the part

1584
01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 1: where she's like, I want to be a real human

1585
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:28,320
Speaker 1: and she's like, well, take my hands and you'll see

1586
01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:30,080
Speaker 1: what it's really like to be human, so you know what,

1587
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:32,800
Speaker 1: you know what you're getting yourself into here. And then

1588
01:20:32,840 --> 01:20:34,960
Speaker 1: they showed nothing but good times. Yeah, show a lot

1589
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:37,720
Speaker 1: of home videos of like happy birthdays and like fun

1590
01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:40,519
Speaker 1: Christmases and like people in a field with flowers and

1591
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:44,840
Speaker 1: like babies and lovely imagery about how great it is

1592
01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:47,120
Speaker 1: to be a human being. And I remember even thinking

1593
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 1: in the movie, I wish they were showing the nuclear bomb,

1594
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:53,080
Speaker 1: because I mean, first of all, I've been an amazing

1595
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:57,920
Speaker 1: tie in. It's just like Kelly and Murphy somehow, but

1596
01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:01,439
Speaker 1: that you know, good times is not the only thing

1597
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:03,080
Speaker 1: there is to be in human And I think it

1598
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 1: would have made her yes, a lot more definitive and

1599
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:08,320
Speaker 1: powerful if she had seen a lot of bad shit

1600
01:21:08,400 --> 01:21:11,479
Speaker 1: too and said even so with all that shit, I

1601
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:14,200
Speaker 1: still want it, right, I think I think it would

1602
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:16,160
Speaker 1: have been more powerful, And so it kind of undercut

1603
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:18,040
Speaker 1: it to me to only show good things.

1604
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:22,040
Speaker 2: I was thinking the exact same thing during that montage.

1605
01:21:22,400 --> 01:21:24,360
Speaker 2: I was like, this is a little too nice for

1606
01:21:24,479 --> 01:21:26,160
Speaker 2: the idea of what it is to be human. It

1607
01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:30,639
Speaker 2: sucks sometimes and and also, that's what makes good things

1608
01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:33,559
Speaker 2: good is bad things. If everything was just happy all

1609
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:36,360
Speaker 2: the time, then where's your comparison point? What is happy?

1610
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:39,880
Speaker 2: It's just normal, right, right? So I agree that I

1611
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:41,599
Speaker 2: think that montage would have been a lot better with

1612
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:45,919
Speaker 2: some some some shots from openham They if both movies

1613
01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:50,520
Speaker 2: had found a way to include in their montages elements

1614
01:21:50,520 --> 01:21:53,240
Speaker 2: of the other. Truly the greatest we had to get

1615
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:54,160
Speaker 2: movies like.

1616
01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:59,360
Speaker 1: A drunken dream of kitties. So she's going, Hi, Barbie, Hi, Barbie, Hi, Barbie,

1617
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:04,000
Speaker 1: I'm a bus fitness and then she wakes up. You know,

1618
01:22:04,040 --> 01:22:07,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, right. I also loved the point where

1619
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:10,439
Speaker 1: she said all these things about how contradictory it is

1620
01:22:10,479 --> 01:22:12,719
Speaker 1: to be a woman, and now we want we're putting

1621
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:14,679
Speaker 1: all that on a doll as well, because we want

1622
01:22:14,680 --> 01:22:17,839
Speaker 1: Barbe to see everything too. She has to be both beautiful,

1623
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 1: slim and gorgeous so that people want to play with her.

1624
01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:22,559
Speaker 1: But also she has to be every job and smart

1625
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:25,240
Speaker 1: and have all the capabilities of whatever whatever, right, Like,

1626
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:27,599
Speaker 1: we need her to do everything and be everything. So

1627
01:22:27,640 --> 01:22:30,479
Speaker 1: weird and now everyone's kind of feeling that way. But

1628
01:22:30,560 --> 01:22:32,799
Speaker 1: the movie too, they're sort of like it's too feminist,

1629
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:33,840
Speaker 1: it's not feminist enough.

1630
01:22:33,920 --> 01:22:34,400
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

1631
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:37,479
Speaker 1: You know, it's getting all the same. All the exact

1632
01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:40,040
Speaker 1: same contradictions that she talks about in the movie are

1633
01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:43,080
Speaker 1: given to the movie now. And that's very interesting to

1634
01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:45,080
Speaker 1: me to see that kind of being extrapolated in the

1635
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:45,599
Speaker 1: real world.

1636
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:49,040
Speaker 2: You know, I've said it before many times, and I'm

1637
01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:53,599
Speaker 2: glad that Greta Gerwig and the Barbie cast picked up

1638
01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:56,120
Speaker 2: on what I was saying, which is that it's it's

1639
01:22:56,240 --> 01:22:58,599
Speaker 2: I think it's challenging for women sometimes in this world

1640
01:22:58,600 --> 01:23:03,360
Speaker 2: it's complicated. Maybe even you know, I don't know, may

1641
01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:06,679
Speaker 2: maybe a little more complicated than men. I'm not sure.

1642
01:23:07,120 --> 01:23:10,720
Speaker 2: I don't want to walk into that, but but you know,

1643
01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 2: I'm just glad that other that that women have finally caught.

1644
01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:16,439
Speaker 1: Up to what I thought, Oh my god, you were

1645
01:23:16,479 --> 01:23:23,880
Speaker 1: gonna challenging me today. Uh No, But I just I

1646
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:25,920
Speaker 1: think that's really interesting. And that's not to say that

1647
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:30,040
Speaker 1: like movies that women do or you know, people put

1648
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:32,160
Speaker 1: a lot more on it. I think they are putting

1649
01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:34,760
Speaker 1: a lot on this movie. It was offering a lot,

1650
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:38,240
Speaker 1: so of course, what will people will put their weight

1651
01:23:38,280 --> 01:23:40,200
Speaker 1: of their expectations on it. And that's going to make

1652
01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:43,240
Speaker 1: a difference. But and people are saying the same about Oppenheimer.

1653
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:45,160
Speaker 1: They want Oppenheimer to do everything. I wanted it to

1654
01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:47,040
Speaker 1: have more with the women. You know, people were like,

1655
01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:49,439
Speaker 1: why didn't you include the down Winders. There's lots of

1656
01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:52,519
Speaker 1: criticism of that movie too, not even enough or whatever, right,

1657
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:55,679
Speaker 1: and so we should probably examine how much we're expecting

1658
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:59,400
Speaker 1: from our entertainment and our dolls and shit.

1659
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:06,639
Speaker 2: I mean, like, imagine, five years ago someone said Mattel

1660
01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:09,680
Speaker 2: is gonna produce a Barbie movie and they didn't tell

1661
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:12,320
Speaker 2: you who's directing it or anything like that. We all

1662
01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:16,400
Speaker 2: know what trash that movie is gonna be. It's gonna

1663
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:19,519
Speaker 2: they're gonna get the director of snow Dogs to come

1664
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:24,760
Speaker 2: in and do the dopiest, schlockiest, like the jokes are

1665
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:27,680
Speaker 2: gonna be awful, it's gonna be. It's gonna be the

1666
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:34,960
Speaker 2: most stereotypical, just like Minions, but they're Barbies now garbage.

1667
01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:38,720
Speaker 2: What we got is kind of unbelievable.

1668
01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:39,640
Speaker 1: I agree.

1669
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:44,600
Speaker 2: I'm sort of shocked that it was just on a

1670
01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:49,759
Speaker 2: surface level as thoughtful as it was, because A didn't

1671
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:55,160
Speaker 2: have to be and B probably struggled just to be that. Yeah,

1672
01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:57,360
Speaker 2: so I'm impressed. Yeah.

1673
01:24:57,760 --> 01:25:00,240
Speaker 1: Also shout out to Michael Sarah. Alan was is a

1674
01:25:00,280 --> 01:25:04,640
Speaker 1: really fun character. Very much enjoyed Alan. I love you

1675
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:07,559
Speaker 1: go to beat some ass. Yeah, I'm Ken's friend and

1676
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:09,080
Speaker 1: we can share clothes.

1677
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:14,120
Speaker 2: Or whatever. That is perfect part for him.

1678
01:25:14,360 --> 01:25:14,839
Speaker 1: Delightful.

1679
01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:17,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, just really good. Similu was really funny too. Yes,

1680
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:22,840
Speaker 2: it was great, and uh yeah, it's just overall. Oh

1681
01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:23,439
Speaker 2: it's a ray.

1682
01:25:24,400 --> 01:25:26,240
Speaker 1: It's a ray for president.

1683
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:28,720
Speaker 2: We're fans. She was hilarious.

1684
01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:31,000
Speaker 1: I did love the kid too.

1685
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:34,479
Speaker 2: I don't know the great Kate McKinnon's I mean Kate

1686
01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:36,640
Speaker 2: McKinnon and Greta Gerwig just found out that they were

1687
01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:37,639
Speaker 2: roommates in college.

1688
01:25:37,920 --> 01:25:40,800
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, I didn't know that. Oh the kid

1689
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:42,000
Speaker 1: right America.

1690
01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:43,840
Speaker 2: For first daughter, she was great.

1691
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:47,000
Speaker 1: We'll also say a little funny Easter egg. The daughter

1692
01:25:47,120 --> 01:25:49,559
Speaker 1: and her three friends are apparently based on the original

1693
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:52,479
Speaker 1: Brats dolls. Oh so sort of like the next generation

1694
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:55,120
Speaker 1: or whatever. So I thought that was kind of funny,

1695
01:25:55,200 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 1: and it's true when you look at the four bratstalls

1696
01:25:57,200 --> 01:25:59,920
Speaker 1: there at least very similar Like ethnicity is there's one

1697
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:03,559
Speaker 1: one black Brats, one blonde one, you know. Yeah, yeah,

1698
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:05,240
Speaker 1: oh shit, those really are her fore friends.

1699
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:05,840
Speaker 2: That's cute.

1700
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:08,320
Speaker 1: So that was really cute. A lot of little shit

1701
01:26:08,400 --> 01:26:10,320
Speaker 1: like that. That's fun to find out about the movie too, Yeah,

1702
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:11,599
Speaker 1: for sure. It just makes it more fun.

1703
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:15,880
Speaker 2: So, folks, I want to know, I want to know.

1704
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:18,479
Speaker 2: We've been talking about Oppenheimer, we've been talking about Barbie,

1705
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:21,360
Speaker 2: and I'm just curious. I want you all to to

1706
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:23,840
Speaker 2: email us. I want you to message us. I want

1707
01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:25,680
Speaker 2: you to let us know if you like listen to

1708
01:26:25,760 --> 01:26:28,280
Speaker 2: us talk about movies, because we like doing it. And

1709
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:30,880
Speaker 2: I've always been curious if we put that on the air,

1710
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:33,519
Speaker 2: you know what kind of interest, Yeah, Garner from that,

1711
01:26:34,680 --> 01:26:36,360
Speaker 2: So I'm s curious. I mean, you know, it's just

1712
01:26:36,479 --> 01:26:40,719
Speaker 2: kind of circumstantial that we went into Oppenheimer and Diana

1713
01:26:40,960 --> 01:26:43,760
Speaker 2: dove deep into all this research, and now we get

1714
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:45,519
Speaker 2: to talk about the movie as well. So I hope

1715
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:46,160
Speaker 2: you'll enjoyed it.

1716
01:26:46,439 --> 01:26:49,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope so too. And all this stuff about

1717
01:26:49,080 --> 01:26:52,679
Speaker 1: Oppenheimer's ladies, Oh my god, I was just and as kids,

1718
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:54,920
Speaker 1: you know, they were all of them a little bit

1719
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:58,800
Speaker 1: left to the dust of history, so it was cool

1720
01:26:58,800 --> 01:26:59,960
Speaker 1: to dust them off and kind of see what was

1721
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:00,360
Speaker 1: going on.

1722
01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:03,000
Speaker 2: Right, right. Careful that dust, don't breathe.

1723
01:27:02,840 --> 01:27:05,160
Speaker 1: In because that's radioactive.

1724
01:27:05,240 --> 01:27:09,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for sticking with us through this.

1725
01:27:09,439 --> 01:27:12,120
Speaker 2: I think I think was really fascinated by by everything

1726
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:14,479
Speaker 2: we've been doing for the last couple hours. So thank

1727
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:17,479
Speaker 2: you for tuning in. Do please reach out give us

1728
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:19,760
Speaker 2: your thoughts. I'm now more than ever. Maybe I just

1729
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:22,439
Speaker 2: want to know what you thought of Oppenheimer the movie

1730
01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:24,519
Speaker 2: of the Man of These Women.

1731
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:26,400
Speaker 1: Nuclear nuclear weapons?

1732
01:27:27,000 --> 01:27:29,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, disarmament.

1733
01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:31,360
Speaker 1: Would you have dropped the bomb on Japan?

1734
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:35,760
Speaker 2: God? But and then let us know? Yeah, if you

1735
01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:37,960
Speaker 2: want to join us for more movie conversations, we'd love to.

1736
01:27:38,120 --> 01:27:40,719
Speaker 2: We'd love to wrap you into that, so please shoot

1737
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:43,120
Speaker 2: us an email ridict Romance at gmail dot com.

1738
01:27:43,360 --> 01:27:46,080
Speaker 1: We're also on Instagram. I'm at Dianamite.

1739
01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:46,960
Speaker 2: Boone and I'm at over Rate.

1740
01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:49,639
Speaker 1: It's Eli and the show is atridict Romance.

1741
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:52,680
Speaker 2: Thanks again everybody for tuning in and spending your time

1742
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:53,960
Speaker 2: with us, and we can't wait to hear from you.

1743
01:27:54,080 --> 01:27:56,160
Speaker 2: We can't wait to give you another episode next time.

1744
01:27:56,400 --> 01:28:00,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, we love you. By bye, solo friends, It's time

1745
01:28:00,479 --> 01:28:05,439
Speaker 1: to go. Thanks for listening to our show. Tell your friends, nighbors,

1746
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:08,599
Speaker 1: uncles in dance to listen to our show Ridiculous Well

1747
01:28:08,760 --> 01:28:09,040
Speaker 1: Dance