1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Breaking news tonight. 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: Message to Bondie, Pam Bondie, the US Attorney General release 3 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 2: the files, the Jeffrey Epstein files in case you need clarification, Bondie, you. 4 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 3: Promised, now deliver. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. 5 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: I want to thank you for being with us, joining 6 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 2: me now an all star panel to make sense of 7 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: what we are learning. Tonight, Dylan Howard is with US 8 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 2: investigative journalist and author of Epstein Dead Man, Tell No Tales. 9 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 3: But first I'd like you to listen to this. 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 4: What you're going to see hopefully tomorrow is a lot 11 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 4: of flight logs, a lot of names, a lot of information. 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 4: But it's pretty sick what. 13 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 3: That man did. 14 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 4: A source had told me where the documents were being 15 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 4: kept southern to strict of New York's shock. So we 16 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 4: got them all by, hopefully all of them Friday at 17 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 4: eight am, thousands of pages of documents. I have the 18 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 4: FBI going through them. Director of Patel is going to 19 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 4: get us a detailed report as to why the FBI 20 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 4: withheld all of those documents. 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 2: From my friends at Fox twenty five, Dylan Howard, that 22 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 2: was Pam Bondy, the US Attorney General, promising, and I've 23 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: got so many clips of her promising out the Ying Yang, 24 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 2: promising the release of the Epstein files, and at that 25 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 2: point blaming the hold up on the Southern District of 26 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 2: New York, which I accepted. I accepted that at the 27 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: time I had no reason to disbelieve her or to 28 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: believe a nefarious intent on anyone's mind, anyone including the 29 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: Southern District. But now, really, she just referred to thousands 30 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: and thousands and thousands of pages of files, and now 31 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: we're being told there's nothing in there. Were not releasing them. 32 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: If there's nothing in there, why not release them? Mister Howard, Well, 33 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: this is. 34 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 5: A cover up of epic proportions, and not just because 35 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 5: of the national discord over the last week. That is 36 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 5: President Donald Trump's alleged ties to Jeffrey Epstein's No, we've 37 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 5: known that for decades, and we've known that they had 38 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 5: a friendship leading up to Epstein's two thousand and five 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 5: investigation in Florida. Now, Trump obviously campaigned on a desire 40 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 5: for transparency. This is the antithesis of it. The reality 41 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 5: was that what was released in that so called phase 42 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 5: one of epstein files being dumped on the American public 43 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 5: was nothing new. What we know is that there are 44 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 5: tens of thousands of documents related to Epstein that the 45 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 5: Southern District of New York, a division of the Department 46 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 5: of Justice, and the FBI are refusing to release. How 47 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 5: do we know that because one of the news outlets 48 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 5: that I own, Radar Online, first sued in twenty seventeen 49 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 5: the FBI for a full and frank disclosure of these 50 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 5: documents related to that two thousand and five case in Florida. 51 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 5: At the time, Nancy, we were stonewalled. Believe it or not, 52 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 5: the Southern District of New York invoked Jeffrey Epstein's privacy 53 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 5: rights over those of the dozens of victims at the 54 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 5: center of that case in Florida. Then Epstein dies. Was 55 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 5: it suicide or was it murder? Still, the Southern District 56 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 5: of New York wouldn't release the files. Fast forward to 57 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 5: last year and a US judge in the Southern District 58 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 5: hands down a verdict against the news outlet, Radar Online 59 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 5: the news. The verdict there was that the information containing 60 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 5: those files could jeopardize any potential appeal of Epstein's accomplice 61 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 5: Gislaying Maxwell. Well, that is now under appeal, and what 62 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 5: is evident in now recently filed appeal is that there 63 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 5: are more than eleven thousand documents that have not been 64 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 5: released to the public around this child sex trafficking ring. 65 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 5: And one must ask themselves at this hour is the 66 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 5: rights of Jeffrey Epstein and Gislaying Maxwell being protected over 67 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 5: those of what the DOJ has now said are more 68 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 5: than one thousand victims of the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking ring. 69 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 2: I'm very curious as to why the documents are not 70 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 2: being disclosed now. Dylan Howard, you suggest a nefarious relationship 71 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: between Trump and Epstein. Many celebrities take photos that later 72 00:04:55,240 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 2: they wish they hadn't taken. Photos alone. Do not decay 73 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 2: wrongdoing on behalf of Trump. But I will tell you 74 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: what is a smoking gun to me? We were told 75 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: the documents would be released. Now we're being told there's 76 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 2: nothing to see. If there's nothing to see, why not 77 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 2: release them? Who if anyone is being no. 78 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 3: Naty, I'm not go ahead, please. 79 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 5: No Nazi. I'm not suggesting an afarious link between Trump 80 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 5: and Epstein. What I'm saying is that there has been 81 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 5: a search for an afarious link between Trump and Epstein. 82 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 5: But I think that it obscures somewhat the real crux 83 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 5: of the matter here, and that is that there is 84 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 5: significant intelligence in the hands of the Department of Justice 85 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 5: and the FBI that has not been released to the 86 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 5: American people. And we know that through various motions that 87 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 5: have been put forward in various civil cases in which 88 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 5: the SDNY the Southern District of New York has argued 89 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 5: that the release of those Epstein files could quote reasonably 90 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 5: be expected to interfere with a potentially. 91 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 2: I've never seen prosecutors so worried about the interests of 92 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 2: a convicted felon. I eat Julane Maxwell. And this goes 93 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: back to before Bondie. The promise that these documents would 94 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: be released and that any co conspirator would be prosecutor 95 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 2: goes all the way back to Attorney General William Barr. 96 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 6: This case will continue on against anyone who was complicit 97 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 6: with Epstein. Any co conspirators should not rest easy. 98 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my friends at CBS, And apparently all of 99 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 2: the allergic co conspirators are in fact resting easy tonight 100 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: because apparently the files are not going to be released. 101 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 2: I've never seen anything like it, and all my years 102 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: of investigating and prosecuting, let's just remind everyone what this 103 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: case is about. Listen to Virginia Jiffry, one of the 104 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: five individuals who allegedly committed suicide connected to the Epstein case. 105 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 3: You said, take off your clothes. 106 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 7: I had these little girl undies on, like little hearts 107 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 7: on them, I remember, and they were laughing at that 108 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 7: because they liked that the younger you look, the better 109 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 7: it is. It turned into it turned very sexual, and 110 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 7: it was abused straight away from both of them. I 111 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 7: had been a runaway and I had been abused before. 112 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 7: So to have this, you know, ability to get educated 113 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 7: and do something with my life, I thought I was 114 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 7: turning around. 115 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: That's for my friends at Miami Harold and ITV News 116 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: and Lifetime Dylan Howard, That's what this case is all about. 117 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: The trafficking and exploitation of what we now believed to 118 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: be thousands of little girls. Now, why on God's green 119 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 2: Earth would we not want to release files about the 120 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: desecration and the victimization of little girls entirely correct? 121 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 5: Nancy, at the very heart of This lies a very 122 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 5: deep and disturbing question. If Jeffrey Epstein was operating a 123 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 5: child's sex ring, was he doing it for his own 124 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 5: sexual proclivities or was he doing it for a perhaps 125 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 5: far more nefarious cause. And I think the answer lies there. 126 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 5: As you pointed out, there are dozens of individuals whom 127 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 5: have been linked to Jeffrey Epstein, but their names never 128 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 5: been revealed as part of this so called client list. Now, 129 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 5: something else that Virginia Duffrey said, of course, she committed 130 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 5: suicide earlier this year, was left in a diary that 131 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 5: she wrote, and she said that she used to be 132 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 5: filmed by Epstein's hidden cameras. And what we've learned is 133 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 5: that Epstein's various properties dotted throughout the United States and 134 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 5: his so called Orgy Island, had cameras in every room. 135 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 5: They fed back into a central computer room where a 136 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 5: classic blackmail and honeytrap operation was being run. That according 137 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 5: to various sources whom I've spoken to over the course 138 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 5: of the last decade. 139 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: And your point is that those videos exist and they. 140 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 3: Have not been released. 141 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 2: And speaking of video, now rearing its ugly head is 142 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 2: the accusation that the jail video has been edited from 143 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: the night of Epstein's death. His own brother refuses to 144 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: call it a suicide. 145 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 8: Listen to this challenging ag Bondi's claim of one minute 146 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 8: of Epstein prison video is missing due to a daily reset. 147 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 8: Wired reports the video was cut together in Adobe Premiere 148 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 8: pro from two video files. If true, this contradicts the 149 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 8: Justice Department claimed that footage was raw. Metadata from the 150 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 8: raw Epstein prison video shows approximately two minutes and fifty 151 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 8: three seconds were removed from one of two stitched together clips, 152 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 8: and the cut starts right at the missing minute. 153 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 9: Jeffrey Epstein, is it true, sir, that you have what's 154 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 9: been described as an egg shaped. 155 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 10: Form? 156 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 11: Vague in definite and I'm going to give you the 157 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 11: first one in, mister Peuterman that these types of questions 158 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 11: are not only argumented, but directly in a manner to 159 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 11: embarrass mister Epstein. If you continue with this type of question, 160 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 11: I will join the deposition. 161 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 9: Immediately, sir. According to the Police Department's probable cause affidavit, 162 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 9: one witness described your is oval shaped and claim when 163 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 9: it was thick towards the bottom but was thin and 164 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 9: small towards the head portion and called it egg shaped. 165 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 9: Those are not my words. 166 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 2: I apologize Jeffrey Epstein's deposition that we got our mints on. Now, 167 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: who in the world would have seen his penis and 168 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 2: be able to describe it in such elaborate detail. It's 169 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: referred to in police documents as a witness, which, of 170 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 2: course that witness. 171 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 3: Is a victim. 172 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 2: Who else would be speaking to police to describe Epstein's genitalia. 173 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 2: That would be one document in the many, many thousands 174 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: of documents that we are being denied. Now, if there's 175 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: nothing in the files, why aren't they being released? BONDI 176 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 2: promised they would be released, yet now abrupt about face. 177 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: Much of the suspicion of the government at this juncture 178 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 2: has to relate to videos, videos specifically taken in the 179 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 2: homes of Epstein around the world, flight logs where he 180 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 2: would apparently faery celebrities, millionaires, and more, back and forth 181 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: to his so called Lolita Island where underage girls perform 182 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 2: sex acts. But in my mind, I'm concerned more so 183 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 2: about the video from behind jailhouse walls the night Epstein died. Now, 184 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: keep in mind there are five suicides connected to the 185 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: Epstein investigation. Who are they number one, obviously Epstein number two, 186 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 2: his French counterpart, the French Epstein who was accused and 187 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: behind bars on supplying under age girls. 188 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 3: Who else, Virginia's You're Free? 189 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 2: And two other Epstein victims, all who could have testified. 190 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: So there's a spate of suicides connected to the Epstein case. 191 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: Like in Russia, whenever someone speaks out, they end up 192 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: jumping off of a balcony or they're seriously poisoned. And 193 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 2: we talk about Russia. There are five suicides connected to 194 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 2: the Epstein case. How much more does the government expect 195 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: us to believe? And I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I've 196 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: been on the side of law enforcement since they murdered 197 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: my fiance decades ago. 198 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 3: But this is clearly wrong. Let's talk about that jailhouse video. 199 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 8: Listen in a deep dive into the metadata embedded in 200 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 8: the video presented to the American people as quote. Raw 201 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 8: Wired published analysis indicating the file was assembled from at 202 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 8: least two different source cliffs saved multiple times over a 203 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 8: period of more than three hours on May twenty third, 204 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 8: twenty twenty five. The file was then created at four 205 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 8: forty eight pm and last modified at eight sixteen PM 206 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 8: the same day and uploaded to the Justice Department's website, 207 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 8: where the edited clip is presented as raw footage. 208 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 2: Dave matt Crime Stories investigative reporter who has poured through 209 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 2: countless documents and interviews. Dave Matc We first heard that 210 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: there was a glitch in the video recording system where 211 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: Epstein was housed behind bars. 212 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 3: There were a lot of glitches that. 213 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 2: Night, weren't there, Dave mac Two guards on duty in 214 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: view of Epstein. He could see them, and they could 215 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 2: see him. They didn't have to watch the surveillance video. 216 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: Both of them either fell asleep or went online shopping 217 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: at the time he committed suicide. But it's not just 218 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 2: one minute. There's not just one minute missing from the 219 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 2: jail house video, is there? 220 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 12: Dave Mac correct Nancy that one minute that Attorney General 221 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 12: Bondi has been popping about the reset of the video 222 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 12: at eleven fifty eight fifty eight, saying that was because 223 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 12: it was a nineteen ninety nine system. Well, that might 224 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 12: be explainable if that was the only problem here. But 225 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 12: in total, two minutes and fifty three seconds of video 226 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 12: appears to have been manipulated and is missing. They're able 227 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 12: to go in and look at these computer programs and 228 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 12: how they're used. They can tell when you make a 229 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 12: cut in the video, and when you join two separate 230 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 12: pieces together. They can look see from your keyboard strokes 231 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 12: everything that's been done to the point where they're able 232 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 12: to see how this piece of video was cut, how 233 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 12: it was been saved. Another piece is cut and saved, 234 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 12: and then the two pieces are brought together. The problem 235 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 12: is when you do all that and then present it 236 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 12: as supposed raw footage. 237 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: And it was absolutely titled raw footage, raw footage which 238 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: means unedited. But you could see the jumps as we 239 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 2: call them in this business, the jumps video. 240 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 3: Is spliced together. I mean, I'm not even an expert 241 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 3: in that. I just know a little bit about it. 242 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 3: But I happen to have an expert with me right now. 243 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: Todd Shipley is joining US digital cyber crime expert, former 244 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: detective sergeant with the Reno Police, twenty five years in 245 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 2: elle law enforcement and author surviving cyber attack, securing social 246 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 2: media and protecting your home, Author of investigating Internet crimes. 247 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 2: It goes on and on and on. His expertise is 248 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 2: this helped me out? 249 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 3: Shipley? 250 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 13: Well, I think like everybody s already said, these are 251 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 13: not the law videos. I've looked at the both of 252 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 13: the videos that they provided for download, and needed video 253 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 13: is the original video. They both have been edited. Now 254 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 13: does that mean it's not the real video. No, but 255 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 13: they compiled both of the videos that they allowed for 256 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 13: release and edited them using commercial tools. So it's clear 257 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 13: that the state in the United States government did not 258 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 13: provide us with the raw video that they promised. 259 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 2: The disturbing aspect is that number one, the video has 260 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 2: been edited of that night. 261 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 3: That's the most disturbing aspect. 262 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: But number two that it was released to us titled 263 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 2: raw video. 264 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 3: A lot of excuses have been made about. 265 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: The glitch, but we are now detecting between two and 266 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: three minutes missing from the jail house video. Now, if 267 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 2: you look at that video, you see that only visible 268 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 2: is the elevator and stairwell leading onto that particular cell block. 269 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 2: Doctor Dwayne Hendrix joining me, former Associate Warden in MDC, 270 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: former Senior Warden, US Department of Justice. It goes on 271 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: and on and on. Author, who are you see it? 272 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: Say it sees it? Doctor Hendrix? 273 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 3: Where's the video? 274 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 2: I see the video of the elevator and the stairwell 275 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 2: that would indicate anyone coming in. 276 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 3: Or off the cell block. 277 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: But what about the people already on the cell block, 278 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: the inmate neighbors and others on the cell block. 279 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 3: Where's the video. 280 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 14: Well that They should have various angles in that special 281 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 14: housing unit to show pretty much all the doors within 282 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 14: that unit. Each each institution is mandated to record at 283 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 14: least fifteen days prior anything that goes on in that unit. 284 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 14: So when the investigator show up, showed up the after 285 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 14: Action team, they should have been able to see all 286 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 14: the footage from the prior fifteen days on that special 287 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 14: housing unit. Now, in terms of the branch, I. 288 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 2: Hear you talking about the fifteen days prior to Epstein's death. 289 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 2: I'm talking about that, not that's all I want. All 290 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 2: I'm seeing is a door in the elevator. What about 291 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 2: the other inmates? Hendrix, where's the you alluded to other angles. 292 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 14: They should have been recording and the staff and facilities, 293 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 14: those communication technicians. If there were any issues with those cameras, 294 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 14: they that should have been they should have been aware 295 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 14: of that. Now when the after Action team came, I 296 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 14: think the After Action team came within a few after 297 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 14: mister Epstein's death. That would have been something that would 298 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 14: have been talked about immediately and right away. So I 299 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 14: would beg to think in an after action import from 300 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 14: the incident of his death or his apparent suicide, that 301 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,959 Speaker 14: would have been something that would have been definitely a 302 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 14: major part of that investigation. So that's where that information 303 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 14: will come from. 304 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 305 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 2: Joining me now is Joseph Scott Morgan. He is Professor 306 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 2: forensics Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, 307 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 2: and he is a star of a hit podcast, Body 308 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 2: Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. 309 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 3: Jo Scott, thank you for being with us. 310 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 2: Don't you find it a tiny bit of coincidence that, 311 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: according to experts I put on the stand, it takes 312 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 2: a human between two and three minutes to die of 313 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 2: asphyxiation or less or less than two to three minutes, 314 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 2: and the glitch in the video. 315 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 3: Is about three minutes. Doesn't that bother you? 316 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 15: Of course it does, and i'd I've worked diks in 317 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 15: jails over the course of my career in Atlanta and 318 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 15: New Orleans, and one of the things that we talk 319 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 15: about when we are investigating disks within correctional facilities, is 320 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 15: who observed them, When was the last time they were 321 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,959 Speaker 15: seeing what are the points of observation relative to this, 322 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 15: Because this is what it breaks down to, is that 323 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 15: the government at this point in time is the caretaker 324 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 15: of these individuals. They have assumed that role and they 325 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 15: did not have eyes on this individual during this period 326 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 15: of time. There has to be door to door accountability 327 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 15: for every second. And from a death investigation perspective, this 328 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 15: should be a no brainer. This should be something that 329 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 15: is so easy to walk through. But as it turned out, 330 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 15: Nancy that arguably this is one of the most controversial 331 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 15: death investigations of this current century that we're in right now, 332 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 15: and it should be something that's very very simple. 333 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 8: Information has not been released about the inmates and sells 334 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 8: adjacent to Epstein. In the days leading up to his death. 335 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 8: There were twelve to fourteen inmates near Epstein, but no 336 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 8: information about who the inmates were, when the inmates were 337 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 8: placed in the cells near Epstein, how long the individuals 338 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 8: had been in jail, when were they moved, and where 339 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 8: did they go. Mark Epstein says one of the inmates 340 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 8: had been in the cell area for a time prior 341 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 8: to Epstein's arrest and subsequent attainment, and another died after 342 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 8: Epstein's death. No information is available about the other ten 343 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 8: to twelve inmates in the area when Epstein died. 344 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 2: US Attorney General Pam Bondy insisting there's nothing to see here, 345 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 2: there's no client lists. Where now not releasing the files? Okay, Bondy, 346 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 2: you want to tell me that this. 347 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 3: Name wasn't in the files. 348 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 16: Listen, I don't believe it's a picture of me in 349 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 16: London because when I go out to when I go 350 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 16: out in London, I wear a suit and a tie. 351 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 10: That's me. 352 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 16: But whether that's my hand or whether that's the position, 353 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 16: but I don't. I have simply no recollection. The photograph 354 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 16: is taken upstairs, and I don't think I ever went upstairs. 355 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 17: In Galln's house. 356 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 2: But you can't even spit it out, sweating profusely shifting this. 357 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 3: Jerry's lying. You want to tell me that the name 358 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 3: of the number. 359 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: Of Prince Andrew of Wales, that one is not in 360 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: those files. I would bet everything I have that his 361 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: name is in his files. And if his name is 362 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 2: in the files, who else is in the files? 363 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 3: The files were not seeing because BONDI lied. 364 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 2: That was my our friend's over at BBC News and 365 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 2: there's more watch this train wreck. 366 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 17: And I've said consistently and frequently that we never had 367 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 17: any sort of sexual contact whatever. 368 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 2: Joining me now a veteran trial attorney, former felony prosecutor 369 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 2: out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Daryl Cohen, Darryl Cohen, if 370 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 2: you or I had withheld information in a case, a 371 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: felony case, we would be disbarred, We would be censured. 372 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:32,719 Speaker 3: Daryl Cohen. 373 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 2: Of course, you know in every case the defense argues, 374 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 2: oh we didn't get this, Oh we didn't get that. 375 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 3: This is on a biblical scale. Cohen Nancy. 376 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 10: First of all, my philosophy of life and trial strategy 377 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 10: is you have nothing to hide, that hide nothing, So 378 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 10: the question becomes why is it being hidden? In terms 379 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 10: of the victims, I understand withholding their names. 380 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 18: As you have pointed out on the show, and many 381 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 18: people have pointed out, there have been five homicides, five 382 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 18: self deaths, people have committed suicide. 383 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 10: If these victims come out, if her name, whoever she 384 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 10: may be, she may find that her life is not 385 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 10: only ruined from before, but ruined for the rest of 386 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,239 Speaker 10: her life. So I understand that, but there is a 387 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 10: way of explaining that, not hiding all of the evidence. 388 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 10: Not suddenly two different videos minus a minute minus two minutes. 389 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 10: It makes no sense. And so if you want people 390 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 10: to have conspiracy theories, hide it. Continue to hide it, 391 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 10: and the theories will expand, expand and expand. So what 392 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 10: we need to have is transparency. I've heard the word, 393 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 10: but the word has to be followed. Let the public 394 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 10: know as much as you can. And if you don't 395 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 10: let the public know why this person is not named, 396 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 10: then you've got a problem. But let them know. These 397 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 10: were young girls. These were girls whose lives have forever 398 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 10: been changed, and if their name comes out, it may 399 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 10: be even worse. 400 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 2: In addition to alleged client lists, and again it may 401 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 2: not be a proverbial little black book. 402 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 3: It could be. 403 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:33,360 Speaker 2: Names, phone calls, memos, emails, travelogs, video surveillance at Epstein's 404 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 2: various homes and getaways to reveal or create a so 405 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 2: called client list. I don't expect the FEDS to open 406 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 2: up a file and go, oh, here's three hundred names, 407 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 2: this must be the client list. 408 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 3: It's not that easy. 409 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 2: That's why we've got about eleven thousand documents that need 410 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 2: to be released. 411 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 3: They're not. 412 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 2: There's so many disturbing facts about this. Not only the 413 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 2: fact that many people, including Epstein's own brother, who does 414 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 2: not have a pecuniary or money interest in the outcome, 415 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 2: insist that this was not a suicide of Epstein, but 416 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: there are five five suicides in all. Straight Back out 417 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 2: to Dylan Howard, joining US investigative journalist. He is the 418 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: author of Epstein Dead Men Tell No Tales. Dylan, again, 419 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 2: I want to thank you for being with us. You 420 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 2: have researched this so heavily. Five dead bodies, and they 421 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 2: all what a cowenkidink commit suicide before they can testify. 422 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 3: Wow, indeed, now detail please. 423 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 5: Earlier this year we saw the death of Virginia Geoffrey, 424 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 5: who is perhaps the most notable of Jeffrey Epstein's victims 425 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 5: by virtue of the fact that she alleged Prince Andrew 426 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 5: was one who raped her. But significantly, there was another 427 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 5: death in custody, this time on the other side of 428 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 5: the Atlantic in Paris, a gentleman by the name of 429 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 5: John Luke Brenell, who was also accused of similar pinous 430 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 5: crimes like Jeffrey Epstein. Now here's the rub that makes 431 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 5: this particularly interesting. Jean Luke Brenell was the co founder 432 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 5: and CEO of a number of modeling agencies. Modeling agencies, 433 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 5: of course, are known for their use of young women 434 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 5: and underage women for major campaigns. Now Brunell was found 435 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 5: dead by suicide inside his Parisian jail. But this also 436 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 5: opened up an entire other can of worms. And last 437 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 5: week in the US Senate we heard that Jeffrey Epstein 438 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 5: trafficked not only human beings, but more than one billion 439 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 5: dollars across various countries. We don't know how we amassed 440 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 5: a fortune, an individual with little to know financial expertise, 441 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 5: how we amassed such a fortune. And guess what, Nancy, 442 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 5: He funded the modeling operations of John Luke Brennell in Paris. 443 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: I mean Dylan Howard joining us Dylan for Epstein's day 444 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: job where he amassed millions and millions and millions of dollars. 445 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 3: He basically had one client. 446 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: He was like a wealth advisor, you know, trying down 447 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 2: the street to Wells Fargo and they'll have a wealth advisor, 448 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: you know, to tell you what to do with your. 449 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 3: Children's college fund blah blah blah. That's what he did. 450 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 3: He had one client, true, a rich client. 451 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 2: But there's no way in hubl that he got all 452 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 2: that money from wealth advising one client. 453 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 3: I mean, did they think we all just fill off 454 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 3: the turnip truck because we didn't? 455 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 5: Oh the DEMI, where. 456 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 3: Did all that money come from? 457 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 2: And I want to talk to you about Jean Luke Breunell. 458 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 2: All right, he died behind. 459 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 3: Bars, just as you said. 460 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: But the circumstances around his death have not been made public, 461 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 2: right they have not? 462 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 5: They have not? Why there are theories out there that 463 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 5: his death was similar to that of Epstein. And one 464 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 5: thing that needs to be explored not only is this 465 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 5: alleged cover up of the tape, it is also how 466 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 5: was Jeffrey Epstein able to be given the means to 467 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 5: be able to commit suicide if that's what he did 468 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 5: behind bars in New York City? Because the reality is, well. 469 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 2: You're about to pass a brick if you get my understanding. 470 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 2: When Joe Scott Morgan explains to you why he a 471 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: death investigator with over one thousand death scenes under his belt, 472 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 2: says this is not a suicide. 473 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 3: But back to. 474 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 2: Brunei Brunell, the French Epstein, as he has been called. 475 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 3: Jean Luke Brunell. Why do I care about him? 476 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 2: Because he is a freak, was a frequent companion of Epstein's, 477 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 2: and he, like Epstein, was detained at an airport because 478 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 2: of a US launched investigation into Epstein. So what do 479 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 2: you think he would tell authorities to save his own skin, 480 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 2: tell authorities about Epstein, about Epstein's clients. But he never 481 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 2: got to do that because he ended up dead and 482 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: no one will tell us why. So what happens over 483 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,479 Speaker 2: in a Parisian jail cell actually matters in this case, 484 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 2: Dylan Howard. So we've got Jean Luke Brennell, but there is, 485 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 2: of course Epstein. There is Virginia Geoffrey, who is sitting 486 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 2: on a boatload of money from her Prince Andrew's settlement, 487 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 2: has a beautiful mansion, and then suddenly, after she wins, 488 00:31:53,840 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 2: she kills herself. Then we have Caroline on Giannao, an 489 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 2: Epstein victim, and leap sky Patrick another Epstein victim. Could 490 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 2: they have testified to who their clients were? But we'll 491 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: never know because they're all dead, Dylan. 492 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 5: That's entirely correct, Nancy but that's not to say that 493 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 5: the death of a number of these people that were 494 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 5: alleged victims of Jeffrey Epstein were indeed nefarious. What we 495 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 5: do know about Virginia Jewfree is that she was going 496 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 5: through a very difficult time as a result of being 497 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 5: catapulted at a young age, at the tender teenage years 498 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 5: of her life, to be catapulted into this scandal. So 499 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 5: I'm not a subscriber that Virginia Jewffree was off, if 500 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 5: you like, But what I can tell you is my 501 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 5: own knowledge from having spoken to a number of victims 502 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 5: of Epstein. These young girls that have matured in life 503 00:32:55,080 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 5: have gone on to live scared and paranoid lives, feeling 504 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 5: like and in some instances, knowing that they have been followed, 505 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 5: them pointing the blame back at people like Epstein and Maxwell, 506 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 5: who they believe terrorized them throughout the course of their 507 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 5: criminal trials, all with one pursuit to zip them up, 508 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,479 Speaker 5: to keep them quiet, to frighten them from testifying, and 509 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 5: to ensure that potentially people like Maxwell and Epstein were 510 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 5: able to potentially secure their own futures. 511 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grief. 512 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 2: Joining me now is a renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio 513 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 2: trauma expert and consultant. It's Karen Stork at Karenstork dot com. Karen, 514 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. Jumping off of what 515 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 2: Dylan Howard just said, as if these victims hadn't been 516 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 2: through for Pete SAgs afraid has photos, yet people still 517 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 2: claims she's a liar. Right now, the bodies are piling 518 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 2: up and the government refuses to release the files. 519 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 3: This is rubbing salt in the wounds of the victims. 520 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 2: But also I would find it very scary that when 521 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 2: people speak out, they are alambasted in public, they meet misfortune. 522 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 19: These were girls who were under age. Their brains were 523 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 19: not developed. You don't develop to your in your twenties, 524 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 19: and their lives are crushed. They're terrified. They see people dying. 525 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 19: They have not been able in many, many instances. I 526 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 19: even know one of them. They don't have normal lives. 527 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 19: This changes everything, the picture of your future, and so 528 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 19: it's awful. It's just terrible that this continues and that 529 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 19: we don't get to the bottom of what's going on. 530 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 2: It's not just about a client list, a little black 531 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 2: book or videos. 532 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 3: It's about a potential murder. Yes of Epstein. 533 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 2: You may not care about his life, but don't you 534 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 2: care about the truth. Don't you want to know what 535 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 2: really happened and what happened to the other four people 536 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 2: connected to this case? You all committed suicide. Well, take 537 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: a listen to doctor Michael Boden. 538 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 20: There were fractures of the left, the right thyroid cartilage, 539 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 20: and the left hyoid bone. I have never seen three 540 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 20: fractures like this in a suicidal hanging. Sometimes there's a 541 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 20: fracture of the higher bone or a fracture of the 542 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 20: thyroid cartilage. Going over over one thousand jail hangings suicides 543 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 20: in the New York City State prisons over the past 544 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 20: forty to fifty years, no one had three fractures. 545 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 2: I have questioned doctor Michael Boden on many occasions, and 546 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 2: he is truly brilliant. 547 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 3: Joining me now. 548 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 2: Is Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, professor of forensics, Jacksonville 549 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,359 Speaker 2: State University, author and star of Body Bags That Joe 550 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:26,720 Speaker 2: Scott Morgan hit Podcast All That Aside. He has investigated 551 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 2: over one thousand deaths, be the suicide, homicide, accidental, natural causes, 552 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 2: all of them. Everything in the book he's investigated it. Okay, 553 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 2: Joe Scott again, thank you for being with us. I 554 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 2: need you and I need you. Now explain what Biden's 555 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 2: talking about. 556 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 15: Okay, before we get to what he said about the 557 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 15: internal findings. It's very important, Nancy, that we understand the 558 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 15: external findings on Epstein's body. When you have a hanging, okay, 559 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 15: you begin to think about the body being supported. Right, 560 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 15: So we have a ligature here. We're talking about a 561 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,439 Speaker 15: hanging where an individual is supported. You've got a point 562 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 15: of contact here, and you get a feature on the neck. 563 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 15: With hangings, that's called tintinge n ting, not like car windows, 564 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 15: but like a pup tent. The actual furrows go up 565 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 15: behind the ears, Nancy, that doesn't exist with Epstein. It 566 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 15: goes parallel to the shoulders. If you look at the 567 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 15: ligature mark around his neck, and this is the external thing, 568 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 15: you'll see this kind of dry, a braided area that 569 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 15: runs parallel to his neck. Listen to a person when 570 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 15: this happened. There were many of us that saw those 571 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 15: images saying, this doesn't look like a typical hanging. Okay, 572 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 15: how in the hell do you explain that? Where does 573 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 15: that come from? That's not something that you normally see. 574 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,760 Speaker 15: Here we have the hyoid, it's fractured. That's the greater 575 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 15: horn Nancy. That does happen with homicidal strangulations. Over the 576 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 15: course of my career in Nancy, I've had one case 577 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 15: that I recall that was not a homicide, where I 578 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,760 Speaker 15: had a fractured highwoid, and that was a car accident 579 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 15: with an old car where guy fell off of an 580 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 15: abutment thirty three stories hit his neck on there. You 581 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 15: have to have direct pressure and then to think about 582 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,919 Speaker 15: that that's going to be generated by this cloth that's 583 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 15: on the floor. The deeper the furrow, the narrow the cord. 584 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 15: They're trying to sell us this idea that this was 585 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 15: in fact the strips of material that are torn up 586 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 15: in this pigsty of a cell that this guy was 587 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 15: living in. I don't see how you can make sense 588 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 15: of it. THEO investigators, Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, just 589 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 15: not hold on. 590 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 2: You mentioned the disarray in Epstein's cell. Doctor Dwayne Hendricks 591 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 2: is joining us. He is the expert former Associate Warden MDC. Brooklyn, 592 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 2: the former c your Warden US Department of Justice. This 593 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 2: is not allowed, doctor Hendrix. I've been in so many jails, penitentiaries, 594 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,879 Speaker 2: gimvy jails, you name it, halfway houses, blah blah blah. 595 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 2: I can get on. That's not allowed in a jail cell. 596 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 2: That is not allowed for many reasons. Succinctly explain why. 597 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 14: One for sanitary reasons and safety reasons. I mean they 598 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 14: ripped clothes to make clothes lines. 599 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 2: Yes, I hate to be doctor Hendrix. I like you, 600 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 2: but that's not why that is not allowed. Because we 601 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 2: don't want to have a messy inmate. Eh what no 602 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 2: safety is because it's a danger it is. 603 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 14: You're right, it's safety and security. And when someone walks 604 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 14: up to that cell and looks through that that little 605 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 14: small window and that shoe cell with should have told 606 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 14: him to get take that stuff down, give me those 607 00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 14: extra seats, give me those extra clothes, and get this stuff. 608 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 20: Out to sell. 609 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 14: There is no way that self should like. 610 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 2: A teenage girl's nasty dormitory. 611 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 3: Put the picture back up, Hendrix. 612 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 2: Don't you know how many inmates, how many would want 613 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 2: to tear that sheet up and get a warden like 614 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 2: you around the net with it. 615 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 3: That's why that is not allowed. 616 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 2: And I have been in so many jails again, Hendrix, 617 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 2: I can't even count them that. 618 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:39,280 Speaker 3: I've never seen anything like that in my life. Why, Hendrix, Why. 619 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 14: This is obviously what we're saying is a huge neglect 620 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 14: in basic correctional fundamentals, and that's running a safe, humane 621 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 14: and clean environment. And there's no way that this individual 622 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 14: should have had all those extra sheets, been able to 623 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 14: accumulate all this extra material to put himself in a 624 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 14: last position to commit suicide. So, in a nutshell of 625 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,879 Speaker 14: that is the reason why they should have happened. 626 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:04,760 Speaker 1: Or be murdered. 627 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 2: Again, I don't know who his inmate neighbor was. We 628 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 2: haven't been given those files. They're in the files that 629 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,919 Speaker 2: were going to be really so, Joe Scott Morgan, what's 630 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 2: the single most probative fact regarding Epstein's body? 631 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 15: I think I think probably this level of trauma that 632 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:28,439 Speaker 15: you're seeing that is just inconsistent with what doctor Mike 633 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,280 Speaker 15: had said, Nancy, that this is not consistent with a 634 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 15: suicidal event. This is consistent with what you see relative 635 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,800 Speaker 15: to a homicidal event. And it's not just that greater 636 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 15: horn that's fractured there on the hyoid, Nancy, we also 637 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 15: have bilateral cartilage fractures that are on either side. That 638 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,320 Speaker 15: requires a tremendous amount of pressure, either through a ligature 639 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,320 Speaker 15: that's directly applied or through throddling where the hands are used, 640 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 15: and that is snap. You're not going to get this 641 00:41:58,120 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 15: kind of dynamic. 642 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 2: And Dylan Howard again guys joining us author of Epstein 643 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 2: dead men tale, no tales, and it is incredible by 644 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 2: the way, I've had read every word of it. 645 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,240 Speaker 3: Dylan Howard, correct me if I'm wrong. 646 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 2: You've got the death of Epstein, his own brother says 647 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 2: it was a murder. He does not have a money 648 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 2: interest in that. You've got the death of Epstein, which 649 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 2: is shrouded in mystery. You've got the death of Jean 650 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 2: Luke Brunnell, which is also shrouded in mystery, which is 651 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 2: the French Epstein that worked with Epstein. And then the 652 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:34,280 Speaker 2: other three. You've got two of them accidental over Josephs. 653 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 2: And then you've got your phrase. So we're never going 654 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 2: to know the truth if they don't release those files, 655 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 2: are we, Dylan Well? 656 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 5: The FBI do O J Meno said Nancy that no 657 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 5: further disclosure would be appropriate or warranted. I couldn't think 658 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 5: of anything more perilous than that statement. For transparency's sake 659 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 5: and for closure on this matter. If there is ever 660 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 5: to be closure, the full FBI and Department of Justice 661 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,320 Speaker 5: report needs to be released so that the American public 662 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 5: can weigh in and make its own judgment, because we 663 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:17,399 Speaker 5: are not trusting of our government institutions to have told 664 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 5: us the truth about this scandal from day one. 665 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:25,280 Speaker 3: Bondy, Yeah, you release the files. 666 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,839 Speaker 2: How can you put your head on your pillow at 667 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 2: night after all those promises? We remember heroes, heroes in 668 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 2: America and all over the world, that are not afraid 669 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 2: to speak out, are not afraid to tell the truth 670 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 2: and demand the truth. 671 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 3: Bondy, you have a choice. 672 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 2: You can make excuses to the public, or you can 673 00:43:53,760 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 2: finally man up and be a hero. We wait as 674 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 2: justice unfolds. Thank you to our guests, but especially to 675 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,399 Speaker 2: you for being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off, 676 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 2: God willing, I'll see you tomorrow night and unto end