1 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: Pushkin previously on Hot Money. I don't know. It's a 2 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: kind of almost like a Sharon Stone moment from Basic Instinct. 3 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,639 Speaker 1: You know the plot of Basic Instinct where she she 4 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: murders her husband. But that's also the plot of the 5 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: book she's written, so it couldn't possibly be true. 6 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: Do you know about this life sized Trump figure in 7 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 2: the office and his marshal's office and his altar of 8 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: Russian officers kept Yeah, those heads. 9 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 3: I think the biggest tragedy of Jan Marzialek is he 11 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 3: probably could have earned millions gazillions with his charm and 12 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 3: his wit and his business cumin and his skills, that 13 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 3: he didn't need to be. 14 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 4: What he turned out to be. 15 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: This is Porta Cule, which is the kind of marina 16 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: in the center of Monaco, just below the ward of 17 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: Monte Carlo. The hills kind of rise up on either 18 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: side around it, the casino on the left and on 19 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: the right up there as the old town and the 20 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,559 Speaker 1: royal palace, and all along the edges of the marina 21 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: here are huge boats. I'm in Monaco on the Codazure 22 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: in the south of France. You're not spotting with my 23 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: former editor Paul Murphy. Yeah, that's a big one. 24 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 2: I know. 25 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: It's a big s Yeah, that one's really that must 26 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: be sixty or something. Yeah, well then okay, yeah, this 27 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: one is a small cruise ship. Paul covered finance in 28 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: London for years and he knows this part of the 29 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: world pretty well. A sunny place for shady people. You know, 30 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: you come here because this is sort of a nowhere 31 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: place in a way. You know, it's a fantasy world playground. Well, 32 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: there are specific reasons people do come here. 33 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 5: Up. 34 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 6: You know, there's text, right, because there isn't any income 35 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 6: text right, There's security is quite important. 36 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: Security because they won't be snooped on or I think 37 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: that's what I but also just kind of old fashioned. 38 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: Won't get robbed, right, won't get in there. 39 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 5: Yeah. 40 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: I mean it's just a place where money talks, isn't it. 41 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: It's also been in recent years the place where wealthy 42 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: Russians come to summer, even now with most of the 43 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 1: country's oligarchs under European sanctions, it's packed full of Russian visitors. 44 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: Not that you'd be able to tell that from the marina, 45 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: where on a balmy June evening super yacht after super 46 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: yacht is lined up getting hosed down by its crew. 47 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: Almost all of them are flying a Maltese flag, not 48 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: because they're from Malta, but because you can register ownership 49 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: of your yacht there anonymously. This is a place where 50 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: the super rich can remain under the radar and live 51 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: by their own rules, which might bring someone to mind. 52 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: You know. 53 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 6: On the three occasions I had lunch with Yan Marslek 54 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 6: in London, well, first two in London, the third one 55 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 6: in Munich, he would always choose the most expensive lunching venue. 56 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 6: Marslik is attracted to kind of over wealth, displays of 57 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 6: over wealth. It clearly is always liked to rub shoulders 58 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 6: with the super rich, and this is a great place 59 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 6: to do it and as such a natural place for 60 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 6: the Marslek to appear. 61 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: And before the collapse of Wildcard, Yan Masslek was here 62 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: on the Kuda's often socializing, carousing and hanging out with 63 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: lots of Russians. There's one year during this period in 64 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: his life that seems to have particular relevance twenty fourteen, 65 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: the year Russia first invaded Ukraine and the year some 66 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: say a transformative thing happened to Marcelect down here in 67 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: the sun. The most significant and secretive thing that can 68 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: happen in the life of a spy the moment he 69 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: may have chosen to really dedicate himself to serving Russia's interests. 70 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: At the time, most Europeans were growing more afraid, more 71 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: wary of Russia's intentions, more skeptical of the Kremlin's interest 72 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: in peace. But Marcelek, a young, talented and successful European businessman, 73 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: went the other way. I think some people end up spies, 74 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: traitors against their better interests. They get tricked into serving 75 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: someone else's cause. Some spies get seduced into it, and 76 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: some spies get blackmailed, but some they do it beca 77 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: because they want to, because they believe in something, a 78 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: loyal to something, and they are the perfect spies. I'm 79 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: Sam Jones and from the Financial Times and Pushkin Industries. 80 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: This is Hot Money, Agent of Chaos, Episode five, A 81 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: different set of rules. The most widely reported story of 82 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: how Marslek was recruited by Russia is set just a 83 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: few miles away from Monaco in the Port at Nice. 84 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: It's a moment that could reveal some clues as to 85 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: why he chose his path so I went to see 86 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: the spot. I mean, we're standing just like meters from 87 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: the stern of one of these yachts, and could have 88 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: just been one like this where they would have just 89 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: been sat there, you know, around a table, having drinks 90 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: or whatever. Talking for Natalia's thirtieth birthday. Natalia's lobina, a 91 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: glamorous woman Jan Maslek was dating while also dating his 92 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: long term girlfriend in Munich. Natalia is Russian, there isn't 93 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: too much information available about her. Many of her records 94 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: have been blanked from Russian state databases. One thing I 95 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: can say about her is that in her youth she 96 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: appeared in a schlocky semi pornographic lesbian vampire flick called 97 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: Red Lips two Bloodlust, and in this film, Natalia plays 98 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: the role of a KGB assassin who murders her victims 99 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: with a deadly nerve agent, which, apart from the murdering, 100 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: is perhaps a particularly curious case of art prefiguring life, 101 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: because by the time her thirtieth birthday rolled around, she 102 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: had developed close connections to Russia's intelligence services. It was 103 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: a warm July evening in twenty fourteen a port camera 104 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: captured Marcelek striding to warwards a mega yacht, where he's 105 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: greeted by Natalia before they climb on board to join 106 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: a group of men. We know all this thanks to 107 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: an article from a consortium of journalists that was published 108 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: in Germany's Deshpiegel and other outlets in twenty twenty four, 109 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: and although there are differing interpretations of what exactly happened, 110 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: the setting and who was there are known thanks to 111 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: that camera footage and from people who attended at this party. 112 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: Natalia introduces Marcelek to a man named Staz Staz Pittlinsky, 113 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: a Russian military man who has connections to the gru 114 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: Russian military intelligence and the agency we understood Marcelect be 115 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: working with in Libya. And what some reporters say happened 116 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: is this on the yacht, Stas recruitian to work for 117 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: Russian intelligence. They quote a source who witnessed the early 118 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: days of Marcelec's friendship with Staz. They say, you can 119 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: see Marcelek from two perspectives, Marcelect before Stas and Marcelek 120 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: after Stas. This possible moment of Marcelec's recruitment is fascinating 121 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: to me, partly because it's a story we've all heard 122 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: a version of before. It's that old tale of doing 123 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: a deal with dark forces, the Faust legend, a fable 124 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: that's been told over and over again in different forms. 125 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: That's one reason why recruitment has this mythology around it. 126 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: But actually it's a little unhelpful to consider it as 127 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: just a handshake with the devil, because recruitment almost never 128 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: happens in a single moment. It's a process. I needed 129 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: to speak to someone who could tell me more about 130 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: how that works and understand the significance of this moment 131 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: in Nice because we know already that Marcelek did say yes. 132 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: What we still don't know is why Hi Boris Hiatleo Sam. 133 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:02,599 Speaker 1: This is Boris Boris Voladavski today. He's a historian specializing 134 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: in Cold War spying and a filmmaker. Everything went well 135 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: with the filming. 136 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 7: Absolutely absolutely, We're finishing, but still working at day and night. 137 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: He's seventy and has a mildly exaggerated anglophile pose to 138 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: his dress, low ties and waistcoats and umbrellas and so on. 139 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: Boris's film is a semi dramatized documentary. It's called Spy 140 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: Capital two and it's all about Jan Marcelek. So like me, 141 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: Boris has been spending a lot of time trying to 142 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: get into Marcelek's head. But I'm not actually interested in 143 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: speaking to Boris just because of this film. I'm interested 144 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: because Boris is himself a former Russian intelligence officer. 145 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 7: It's very simple concerning my rather short participation with Russian 146 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 7: special forces, which I was an office of spetsnaz what 147 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 7: is called normally into worst sleeper agents. 148 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: So if anyone is going to be able to credibly 149 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: interpret mas Lex recruitment, perhaps it's Boris. In the nineteen eighties, 150 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: Boris was fresh out of university with a bevy of 151 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: European languages under his belt. That's when he was drawn 152 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: into an elite cadret of three hundred Russian special agents 153 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: whose mission was to infiltrate European states and wait for 154 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: an expected war between the USSR and the West. Do 155 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: you know where they would have sent you? Was it 156 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: Germany or Austria? Did they disclose that? Oh? 157 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 7: Yes, I know, definitely. The first destination should have been Germany, 158 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 7: and we studied Germany in every detail, and from Germany, 159 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 7: after a couple of years in Germany, it was to 160 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 7: be a transfer to England. 161 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: Boris spent six years training for this mission, turned into 162 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: a lethal secret machine. 163 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 7: There were very interested in linguistic exercises, psychological linguistics, practical linguistics, 164 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 7: phonetics and other things. And toward the diving, mountaineering, parachuting, 165 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 7: martial arts or all those sorts of things. We were 166 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 7: to handle, all sorts of handguns, submachine guns, pistols, all 167 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:24,559 Speaker 7: those sorts of things. That was interesting. 168 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: This is a bit of a funny question, but did 169 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: you believe in what you were being trained to do? 170 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: What was your sense of loyalty? 171 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: Like? 172 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 1: Was it too Russia? Did you believe in the purpose 173 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: of what was going on? 174 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 7: It was much less a kind of ideology or propaganda, 175 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 7: but more of fun and interest in what you were 176 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 7: going through and how you were trained. 177 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: Boris didn't recruit new agents, but he did know a 178 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: lot about how the GIU worked. So I asked Boris, 179 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,959 Speaker 1: how would the GIU you go about recruiting someone like 180 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: Jan Masselek. 181 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 7: There's a long check, there's a so called development of 182 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 7: the target in order to know him better, to know 183 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 7: whether he is inclined in this or that way, to 184 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 7: collaborate with foreign intelligence service, whether he is inclined to 185 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 7: provide information that is needed from him. And if Moscow decides, 186 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 7: and it is always Moscow who decides. If Moscow decided 187 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 7: that this person can be and should be recruited, then 188 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 7: they work out ways of how to recruit this person. 189 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: So initially you'd have someone that would identify a potential target, 190 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: and then you'd have a period of development where you 191 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: would watch them, maybe test them a little bit, sort 192 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: of introduce figures into their life, see how they respond, 193 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: see if they're suitable as an agent to recruit. 194 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 7: That's correct, Yes, and even in the so called easy 195 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 7: cases that might go one for three months, six months, 196 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 7: for a year, or even longer. 197 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: Right, And what kind of things would a GIU officer 198 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: be looking for, I mean psychologically, what kind of person 199 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: or profile might they see as somebody that's vulnerable to recruitment. 200 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 7: A person that should be judged vulnerable for recruitment is 201 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 7: somebody who has something negative like here is very much 202 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 7: interested in money, in women and getting promotion, in getting business. 203 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 7: Somebody who is interested in something. 204 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: And of course that kind of weakness isn't only found 205 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: in greedy businessmen. 206 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 7: If we are talking about recruiting a journalist, for example, 207 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 7: it would be somebody who would get access, suddenly, get 208 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 7: access to information sensitive inside information, would be admitted, for example, 209 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 7: to some Kremlin Kremlins briefings, or get access to some 210 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 7: persons within the Kremlins, and imustration from my chair something. 211 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: Now. I can't be certain, but I'm pretty sure that 212 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: when I used to cover defense for the Ft, this 213 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: kind of thing happened to me. A couple of times 214 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: I got offered access that seemed too good to be true, 215 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: though not with the Russians. And to be clear, I 216 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: wasn't recruited, and maybe I was just being hypervigilant, but 217 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: even at the time, I remember thinking something felt slightly off. 218 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: And it reminds me a little bit too of Marcelek 219 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: giving Paul the k Novechok document. One way I see 220 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: that is as an enticement, a suggestion that if Paul 221 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: played ball, there might be more juicy information to come. 222 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: When I think about marceleg and Nice, I can tick 223 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: off a lot of the factors that Boris mentions. By 224 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, he'd been traveling to Russia for years, so 225 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: he was almost certainly on the radar of Russian intelligence. 226 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: He was evidently interested in money. His whole lifestyle was 227 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: fueled by it. He had a weakness for attractive women, 228 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: and of course he had another big weakness too, he 229 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: was a fraudster. So one way you could interpret that 230 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: day is like this. Here was Jan Marcelek, by this 231 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: point already secretly breaking the law, partying on a yacht 232 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: with a Russian fem fetale who wasn't his long term girlfriend. 233 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: A perfect set of opportunities for blackmail. And yet Boris 234 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: believes that there's much more to it. Boris says he 235 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: has directly spoken with Stas Polinski, the supposed GRU agent 236 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: who was on the yacht. We haven't been able to 237 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: get in contact with him ourselves, Boris says. Staz is 238 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: in Moscow and keeping a low profile. He says Staz 239 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: probably spoke to him so freely because they're both Russians 240 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: and both from an intelligence world. And Stas told him 241 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: he didn't recruit Marcelek. 242 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 7: He had never recruited Marsalk as presented in this in 243 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 7: the media in most of the newspapers, because this was 244 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 7: not his job. 245 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: So, just to be clear, Boris, you had a long 246 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: conversation with Stas by phone at you reached him in Moscow, 247 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: and based on that, you're very clear that he is 248 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: not a person who could have performed that function of 249 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: being a recruiter. 250 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 7: Absolutely in our way, Absolutely in our way, a recruiter 251 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 7: is a very specific job, and if we were talking 252 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 7: about somebody or would be sent to recruit a person 253 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 7: like Marsalk that would be a specially trained recruiter. But 254 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 7: that definitely not happen, So we are absolutely sure that 255 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 7: Petinski did not recruit Marsalic. 256 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: I have some questions about Boris's conversation with Stas. I 257 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: think any intelligence officer would deny recruiting an asset, and 258 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: I wonder if Boris's view of recruitment is perhaps a 259 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: bit outdated based on his own experience from his time 260 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: in the GIU in the nineteen eighties, because, as I 261 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: understand Russia's modern intelligence agencies, their activities can be much 262 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: less formalized, much less constrained in who they engage with 263 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: to work for them. I'm also thinking Boris is a 264 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: trained undercover intelligence officer formerly of the same service Marcelek 265 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: is alleged to work for to play Devil's advocate. I 266 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: suppose people might say, well, you know, Boris, you're former 267 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: GIU officer. Maybe you're just saying that too, because that's 268 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: what the Kremlin wants you to say to minimize this scandal. 269 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: What's your response to that. 270 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 7: I am response to that that I have not been 271 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 7: a JIU office in the past thirty years the country. 272 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 7: I am an intelligence historian who is writing books that 273 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 7: are very very much unliked in Russia. I am doing investigations. 274 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 7: I'm identifying Russian agents. I am identifying in my books 275 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 7: how Russian intelligence services work. I show their weak parts, 276 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 7: I show their strong parts. I explain how the structure operates. 277 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 7: I am giving plenty of interviews, writing plenty of articles myself, 278 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 7: doing films that, of course are very much negatively viewed 279 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 7: at by Moscow by the Kremlin. So no way that 280 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 7: I have been corroborating with them since I left the 281 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 7: country voluntarily more than thirty years ago. 282 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: That's fair, I think, although it does strike me that 283 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: his answer sounds like it could be a little bit rehearsed, 284 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: but then he's probably been asked this question before. Setting 285 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: these downs aside, I'm still intrigued by the thrust of 286 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: what Boris is telling me. To be clear, Boris isn't 287 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: saying Marcelec didn't work for the Russians. He's just saying 288 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: it's more complicated than that. Boris's interpretation is that Marcelek 289 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: is not an agent, but what he describes as a collaborator, 290 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: a kind of top tier freelancer. He thought that he 291 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: could set up his own private. 292 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 7: Business intelligence organization to do jobs that he thought would 293 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 7: be interesting for him and for the Russians, because he 294 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 7: was quite obviously pitching this that kind of operation to 295 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 7: the Russians, and the Russian said, yes, we might be interested. 296 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 7: On oh, this is not interested for us at the moment. 297 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: I think there's something in this idea. I don't get 298 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,959 Speaker 1: the impression that Marcelek is just someone taking orders from 299 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: the Russians. I think he has his own agency in 300 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: all of this. There are tantalizing digital traces of Stas 301 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 1: and Yan's friendship over the years. One I've got in 302 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: my mind in particular sticks out. It's a picture from 303 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: a birthday party Stas's. I think he's got a cake 304 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: in front of him, a huge grin on his face, 305 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: empty wineglasses dot the table, and Yanis sat right next 306 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: to him, leaning towards him. There's an intimacy to it. 307 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: This doesn't seem like the kind of relationship you'd have 308 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: with someone who has blackmailed you or coerced you in 309 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: some other way. So I asked Boris. If Marcelek is 310 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: a freelancer, why might he have wanted to work with 311 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: stas with Russia. 312 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 7: He would probably be interested to take the Russian side, 313 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 7: because for him, Russia would be acting properly and more 314 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 7: correct than the West, for example. And if he were 315 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 7: offered an offer whether to offer his services to the 316 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 7: British intelligence or to the Russian intelligence, he psychologically, politically 317 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 7: and ideologically would probably choose Russia rather than Britain. Why 318 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 7: do you think that is he was a free, truly 319 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 7: free man in Russia, or at least that's what he 320 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 7: thought he was, or he is in Russia while he 321 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 7: was there. It's not freedom as we understand it. They're 322 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 7: thinking that living in Moscow, in Moscow specifically, not in Russian. 323 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 7: In Moscow, they live in an absolutely free society. They 324 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 7: do what they want. 325 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: It's a sort of freedom of privilege. It's a freedom 326 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: to break a few rules and not be put in jailtely. 327 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 7: Absolutely correct, absolutely correct, and specifically, when you collaborate with 328 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 7: intelligence services, you understand that you belong to the elite 329 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 7: of the society, can do you want and nobody can 330 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 7: do anything against you. 331 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 1: Mulling over what Boris has said, the zill lanes in 332 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 1: Moscow come to mind. They are segregated lanes in Moscow's 333 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: big arterial roads, reserved for the use of the nomenclatura, 334 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 1: the most important people in the ruling administration. They're a 335 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: symbol of what being in the intelligence and government elite 336 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: in Russia means a different set of rules. Russia is 337 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: still a kind of feudal society where power doesn't flow evenly. 338 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: It coalesces around people, not institutions or laws. And I 339 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: think that's the point to grasp. Marcelet could always operated 340 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: by different rules his own, where he could rules that 341 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: don't constrain his image of self, his freedom and ambission. 342 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: All of this reminds me of what I heard from 343 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: Marcelec's old classmates in Kloster Neuberg. Sat in school in 344 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: the library, in front of that computer whenever he could 345 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: be there, excusing himself from lessons others had to sit through, 346 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: maybe because he was already more capable. There's a big 347 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: gap between leaving home in nineteen ninety eight and fleeing 348 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: to Moscow in twenty twenty years a fugitive though twenty 349 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: two years, and a big psychological jump, because many of 350 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,479 Speaker 1: us have become more afraid of Russia in this period, 351 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: convinced of its malign intentions, unsettled by its persecution of 352 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: dissidence at home, its throttling of democracy, and its hatred 353 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: of liberal values like sexual tolerance, and its actual warmongering. 354 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: For a long time, I struggled to understand how Marcelect 355 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: could have been drawn to all of that. That is, 356 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: until someone got in touch, someone who opened up a 357 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: whole new perspective on where Marcelect's affinity for Russia might 358 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: have come from. 359 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 4: I was struck because there was one dimension missing here. 360 00:22:51,040 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: That's coming up after the break. After the Ft first 361 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: outed Marcelek as a Russian asset, I got an interesting 362 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: email from an Austrian historian, Thomas Riegler. Thomas wrote to 363 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: say he'd found an element of the Marterlek story that 364 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: no one else had noticed. 365 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 2: So far. 366 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 4: Everybody was like reporting, okay, Jan Marshalik is so fond 367 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 4: of James bond Jan Marshalik likes military stuff and everything, 368 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 4: and he really enjoys being an operative in this secret struggle. 369 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 4: Where does it come from? And here I think his 370 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 4: personal history comes into play. 371 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: Thomas's passion is spending time in the archives researching spying, 372 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: a subject close to him because it dominates the history 373 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: of the city and the country he lives in. 374 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 4: There was always this topic of Vienna being a spy capital, 375 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 4: but nobody actually could say what that meant. Yeah, and 376 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 4: so my research was always to get to the bottom 377 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 4: of this. Why is actually Vienna being referred to as 378 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 4: a spire capital. 379 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: In Austria, spying is basically legal as long as you're 380 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: not doing it against the Austrian state itself. Since it's independence, 381 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: Austria has considered itself a neutual country. A huge debate 382 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: still rages about what that actually means, but one thing 383 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: it's led to is Austria applying an extremely light touch 384 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: when policing the activities of other powers on its own soil. 385 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: It's exactly for that reason that there are so many 386 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 1: spies in Vienna, because it's the safest city in Europe 387 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: for them to operate in, and there are a lot, 388 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: particularly Russian ones. That's also partly because of where it is. 389 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: Vienna is in the very center of Europe. Atlantic countries, 390 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 1: the core of that idea we call the West, sometimes 391 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,719 Speaker 1: have a bit of a mental block in grasping this. 392 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: Austria tends to intuitively get labeled as a kind of 393 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: mini Germany, but Vienna, the city that invented the Croissant, 394 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: is closer to Ukraine than it is to France. During 395 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: the Cold War, politically Austria might have been relegated to 396 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: the minor league, but under the surface, Vienna actually became 397 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: a new center of the great hidden geopolitical games of 398 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: the time, and for Russia in particular, it was a 399 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: crucial window into the West. 400 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 4: It's the kind of a launching pet for operations beyond 401 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 4: the Iron Curtain. This is like a logistical hub away 402 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 4: can move people between those blocks. 403 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: It's the Vienna of Graham Green's the Third Man, a 404 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: city of divided loyalties, and this is the world that 405 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: Jan's gran father operated in. 406 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 4: Two His grandfather, Hans Marshalek, is a very prominent figure 407 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 4: in Austria because he survived a term and concentration camp 408 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 4: at Matthausen. He was in the resistance against the Nazi 409 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 4: regime and he was kind of the first ones actually 410 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 4: who put together a remembrance culture in Austria. 411 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: In his youth, Hans Marcelek was a Communist. That's not 412 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: exactly unusual in this era. Joining the communists who was 413 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: one of the most effective ways you could stand up 414 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: to Nazism. After the Second World War ended, he helped 415 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: to establish the Malthausen Memorial Museum and he took on 416 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: a senior position in the Vienna State Police. He was 417 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: soon involved with counterintelligence on behalf of the Austrian state. 418 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: But when Thomas started digging into Yan's grandfather's his in 419 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: the Austrian State archives, he found something else. 420 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 4: I came across the line in a book where the 421 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 4: author stated that one of the key subordinates of the 422 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 4: first Vienna State Police chief was this Hans Marshalick. And 423 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 4: then I thought, okay, I might try my luck and 424 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 4: get to the archives and ask if there's a dossier 425 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,959 Speaker 4: on Hans Marshalik. And I from my personal experience, I 426 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 4: was very low keen expectations. And then when I got 427 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 4: the material. To my great surprise, I must say, there 428 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 4: was this document laying out the case against Hans Marshalick. 429 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: Thomas still has the records and he's brought them out 430 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: to show me and it's a yeah, it's one two 431 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: three pages And is that like a by lagger an extra? Yeah, 432 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: it's five pages, three page letter and then a sort 433 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: of a little appendix of the detail this document, it's 434 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: a declassified political police file from nineteen fifty six, basically 435 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: laying out the dringende Vadakh, the urgent suspicion that Marcelek 436 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: has betrayed his duties in the police and to the 437 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: State of Austria and has informed or given information to 438 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: the Russians. It shows that Hans Marsilek was suspected of 439 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: giving information about four people members of German counterintelligence and 440 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: a CIA informer to the Soviets, and those people were 441 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: subsequently abducted and sent to a gulag. Thomas had found 442 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: that Hans Marcelek, Yan's grandfather was under suspicion of being 443 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: a Russian spy. Yan's grandfather died in twenty eleven when 444 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: Yan was thirty one. Thomas believed that Hans must have 445 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: loomed Lofe in Yan's life. 446 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 4: Of course, this rich personal history, this man must have 447 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 4: had an influence on Jan Marshalik, especially when it comes 448 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 4: to his fascination with the secret world. 449 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,479 Speaker 1: We can't know, but for me it's a powerful idea 450 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: that this man, who we can reasonably say was someone 451 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: of great charisma, a leader, and a figurehead, might have 452 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: exerted some kind of pull on Yan. Yan was, after all, 453 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: largely alienated from his parents, his father who had left 454 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: him as a kid, and his mother who he was 455 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: estranged from. I'm only really just digesting all of this 456 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: when Thomas tells me something else. He also has information 457 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: about Staz Petlinsky, the Russian associated with the Giu, the 458 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: guy on the yacht. 459 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 4: His own grandfather was a KHB officer stationed in Guienna. 460 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 4: Vidon'te xext proof of that, but it looks like it 461 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 4: is the case. Yeah, the grandfather of this Russian operative 462 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 4: was stationed in Vienna, and that he most likely met 463 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 4: with Hans Marshalik, and that he caltivated Tim as a sauce. 464 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: Thomas is saying that not only was Yan Marsceleck's grandfather, 465 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: Hans likely a Russian spy, but that also Staz's grandfather 466 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: was a Soviet intelligence officer based in Vienna too, and 467 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: Thomas feels that he would have very likely come into 468 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: contact with Yan's grandfather and may even have recruited him. 469 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: This is based on his knowledge of how Russia's intelligence 470 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: agencies were operating in Vienna at this time, which is 471 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: that's just a remarkable historical coincidence, isn't it? Or is 472 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: it more than a coincidence that these kind of things 473 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: only happen because they're almost they were meant to happen. 474 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, it looks like the ingredients of a really grand 475 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 4: spy story because this ties together the Cold War as 476 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 4: the new one. And maybe that's just a speculation. There 477 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 4: was some sort of inuitiation going on here, like an 478 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 4: introduction was made. 479 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: I mean, is that that's not too fanciful. 480 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 4: It's not unsinkable. I mean, it's at this point it's 481 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 4: just pure speculation. But you have to remember that the 482 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 4: way Russian intelligence works, the trust is built upon such introductions. 483 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: It's hard to weigh the significance of all this because 484 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: ultimately I can't tell you what Jan Marselek did or 485 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: didn't know about his grandfather's past, nor what the Russians 486 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: knew about it. But I do know that Russia's intelligence 487 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: services have long institutional memories. They pay very close attention 488 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: to their own archives all Russian intelligence offices. They spend 489 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: years learning about past successes and failures as part of 490 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: their either way. As Thomas shared all this with me, 491 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: I realized I had been thinking of grandson Yan and 492 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: grandfather Hans as inhabiting radically different worlds. After all, Hands 493 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: lived through the Cold War, whereas Yan, I'd thought of 494 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: him as someone largely motivated by money and glamour in 495 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: a post ideological age. But I'm starting to see another 496 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: side of things, and Thomas does too. 497 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 4: I would say that we are actually at the doorstep 498 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 4: of a new ideological war where this counts again as 499 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 4: a motive for becoming an agent, for becoming an informer, 500 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 4: because you want to contribute in this geopolitical power struggle 501 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 4: going on between East and West. And this is a 502 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 4: dangerous situation because those spies tend to be the better ones, 503 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 4: better than the guys who do it solely for money. 504 00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: How would you describe this new ideological fault line? 505 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 8: What is it? 506 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 4: I would say, of course Russia is not the Soviet Union, 507 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 4: but it's mostly like a pans leavistic, imperialistic outlook. But 508 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 4: it's also very much set against liberalism against the West 509 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 4: in general terms, and people are choosing their sides in 510 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 4: this struggle. 511 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: Maybe ideology is a bit of a misnomer. I think 512 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: the German word veltan schaog is kind of better here. 513 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: It means worldview, the subtle difference being that veltan schawang 514 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: is not so much about political theory as it is 515 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: about behavior. This anti liberal order that Putin stands for 516 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: and that Russia in some way represents. It's easy to 517 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: write that off as evil, but that's not necessarily where 518 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: it comes from. It's really about the fact that Putin 519 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: and others believe the post war legal ordering of the 520 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: world is a failure, that liberalism is just a costume 521 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: worn by the West to make us feel good about ourselves, 522 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 1: and that the best way to stand up for national 523 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: interests and ultimately for a more peaceful world is strength authoritarianism. 524 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: It's a worldview partly conditioned by Soviet thinking, too, that 525 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: war and peace don't really exist. Everything instead is just 526 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: constant struggle, And maybe on an individual level. For Marsilek, 527 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 1: it sort of fits with this idea that laws rules, 528 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: corporate accounting practices, they're there to be broken if needed. 529 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,479 Speaker 1: This kind of worldview, it's not really an ideology someone 530 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: can learn in a book or from a political speech. 531 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: Something you feel pick up over time. It's something that 532 00:34:45,200 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: inspires you to act. Coming up next time on Hot Money, he. 533 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 8: Knew that the information based on the anonymous letters was 534 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 8: never enough for the judiciary to take measures. What has 535 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 8: changed meantime suddenly that was the cause. 536 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: Actually now this sort of shows that they both have 537 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: a common employer, which is jan Master. They were all 538 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: plotting together exactly from. 539 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 5: The perspective of puttin what would be great to have 540 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 5: in Europe a country as a door to infiltrate whole 541 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 5: Europe and there install your people. 542 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 1: Hot Money is a production of The Financial Times and 543 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. It was written and reported by me Sam Jones. 544 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: The senior producer and co writer is Peggy Sutton. Our 545 00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: producer is Izzy Carter. Our researcher is Marine Saint. Our 546 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 1: show is edited by Karen shakerge fact checking by Kira Levigne, 547 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: sound design and mastering by Jake Gorsky and Marcelo de' olivia, 548 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: with additional sound design by Izzy Carter. Original music from 549 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: Matthias Bossi and John Evans of Stellwagen Symphonet. Our show 550 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:24,240 Speaker 1: art is by Sean Carney. Our executive producers are Cheryl Brumley, 551 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: Amy Gains McQuaid and Matthew Garahan. Additional editing by Paul Murphy. 552 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Ruler Calaffe, Dan McCrumb, Laura Clark, Alistair Mackey, 553 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: Manuela Saragosa, Nigel Hanson, Vicki Merrick, Eric Sandler, Morgan Ratner, 554 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: Jake Flanagan, Jacob Goldstein, Sarah Nix, and Greta Cohne. I'm 555 00:36:48,360 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: Sam Jones. I want to take a moment to thank 556 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: you for being a pushkin Plus subscriber. I hope you 557 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: are enjoying hot money. Be sure to take advantage of 558 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: all pushkin Plus has to offer, including add free access 559 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: to all pushkin shows, bonus episodes, early access, exclusive binges, 560 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: and full audio books. After this episode,