1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but we still have 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: an amazing show for you. 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 2: Today. 6 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: The State's Project's own Daniel Squadron talks to us about 7 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: his new book, The Fourth Branch, How State government can 8 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: save our Union. But first, The Origin Story podcast host 9 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: Ian dunt comes by to talk about the sorry state 10 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: of British politics. Welcome, Welcome, Ian, Ian. 11 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. It must be back. 12 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 3: Well, I only come here when something really catastrophic has 13 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 3: happened in British sported. Yes, yeah, like I'm the Green Retica. 14 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, listen. 15 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: The point of view is that you're brilliant and funny 16 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: and we always want to have you on, but nothing 17 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: ever happens in your country and so we never have 18 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: an opportunity to bride you. Guys have gotten rid of 19 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: another prime minister. It's twentieth in the last four days, 20 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: and so discuss. 21 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, we're just sort of like Italy with worst food. 22 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 3: Now we've go them through them at speed and we're 23 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 3: gonna We're gonna give it another go. So we're going 24 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 3: to try We're gonna get rid of kiss Starmer, who 25 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 3: turned out to be quite disappointing and lacking in really 26 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 3: any discernible qualities in a way that I think was 27 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 3: frankly extremely surprising for a lot of us, including me. 28 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 2: And we're going to go with a guy. 29 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 3: Called Andy Burnham who seems like he has some weaknesses 30 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 3: but at least some qualities and therefore we put us 31 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 3: in a better position than one in the room. 32 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 2: Right now. 33 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: Now, let's talk first about Crestormer Stormer. Besides the fact 34 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: that no one could ever figure out what his name was, 35 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: including myself and mostly myself, is that just you you? 36 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: That's enough out of you, sir? We Oh, the connection 37 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: is cracking up that guy. What did he do wrong 38 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: besides having a terrible personality? 39 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: Go two things? 40 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 3: So the first is political slash electoral, and the other 41 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 3: one is operational. So electrically he's done something that I 42 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 3: think will have quite a lot of resonance with you, 43 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 3: just that he won on the basis of stitching together 44 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 3: a coalition of progressive voter, centrist voters, some center rights 45 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 3: sort of fiscally conservative, socially liberal voters, but predominantly university 46 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 3: educated living in the city's white collar workers, typically speaking 47 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 3: socially liberal some and then some working class voters. 48 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: So the Biden coalition a little. 49 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: Bit, it's not too far away. 50 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 3: I mean every time you know Americans and American journalists 51 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 3: living in the UK who look at this just sit 52 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 3: there saying, well, this all just feels very much like home. 53 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 3: So you managed to get that in place, and then 54 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 3: you say to yourself, well, we're very weak on immigration 55 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 3: and particularly we're week on trans rights. What all of 56 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 3: this means is that, you know, you've got a very 57 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 3: powerful far right party in the shape of Reform under 58 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 3: Nigel Farage, making a lot of noise as a huge 59 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: amount of support in the right wing press, which is 60 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 3: pretty much all of the press. Then you start moving 61 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 3: to the right on social issues like immigration, like refugees, 62 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 3: like trans rights, and doing it in this really quite 63 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 3: indignant offensive way. I mean, the sort of got the 64 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 3: sense of they wake up each day and think, how 65 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 3: do you punch liberals in the most evocative manner you 66 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 3: know possible, which they did, and of course most social 67 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 3: scientists looking at this thought, you're really not going to 68 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,839 Speaker 3: attract any voters from the right because if they want 69 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 3: to get someone that's anti immigration, they might as well 70 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 3: get the full fat version in the version that you're offering, 71 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 3: but you will offend and alienate voters in the center 72 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 3: and on the left, which is precisely what they did. 73 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 3: So you look at the local council elections. They succeeded 74 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 3: in bringing over basically zero voters from reform, but they lost. 75 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 3: They hemorrhaged voters to the Scottish Nationalist Party, to Pricumru, 76 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 3: the Welsh Nationalists, to the Green Party, to the Liberal 77 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 3: Democrats on the center. So exactly what was predicted and 78 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 3: what was told to him would happen if you pursue 79 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 3: this political path took place, and that was the political error. Operationally. 80 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 3: His error was he was just very very bad at 81 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 3: delivering policy. He was tedious and dull, very boring, and 82 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 3: so we thought, well, you're going to be good at it, right, 83 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 3: Like the whole thing of getting a technocrat in is 84 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 3: that they're technically very accomplished and we'll be able to deliver, 85 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 3: you know, on health waiting times, on education, on defense. 86 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: He turned out to have almost no interest in policy 87 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 3: at all. In so far as he was interested in politics, 88 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 3: he was interested in kind of process, like the factory, 89 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 3: of how you make things. But he didn't really have 90 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 3: any ideas, he didn't really have any values. So when 91 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 3: it came down to the nuts and bolts delivering better 92 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 3: public services, delivering growth, making people feel like their lives 93 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 3: have improved, he was very poor at managing that as well. Then, 94 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 3: of course, the third part is he had no charisma, 95 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 3: He had no sense of presence, and by the end 96 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 3: of it, you didn't look at him and think, well, 97 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 3: you're politically ineffectual, you're operationally incompetent, and you're massively lacking 98 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,239 Speaker 3: in any kind of charisma or any of the qualities 99 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 3: that make for a good leader. So exactly what is 100 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 3: left for us to support in your project? 101 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: In the art? 102 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: So it was nothing, So Liz Truss, it sounds like 103 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: Liz Truss, a little bit like the lefty Liz Truss. 104 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 2: Oh no, let's get ourselves under control here. No. I 105 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: mean he was functionally saying. 106 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 3: It wasn't like he'd been created by evil scientists in 107 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 3: a lab, you know, and so they're in completely different levels. 108 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: I mean, he was highly ineffectable. 109 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 3: But it's a bit like saying, you know, would you 110 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 3: rather spend the evening with No, I'm going to say something, yes, yeah, 111 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 3: Glared Leto or Mussolini, and you'd be like, what that 112 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 3: night Jared Leto, But I'm not rather hang out with 113 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 3: him then Mussolini. 114 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I get that I made. Mussolini is 115 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: a hard sell, even compared to Jared Letto. So now 116 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: you have the mayor of your second biggest city, which 117 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: for you guys is a big deal. For the rest 118 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: of us not so much. No, I'm just kidding. 119 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 2: Can you imagine if you picked the amazing that I 120 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: view these things? 121 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 3: It's a sort of you know, masochism really that brings 122 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 3: me back to this podcast over and over again. 123 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: But imagine if we elected the mayor of Los Angeles 124 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: to be president next I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 125 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 3: Sorry, I mean imagine if you elected the mayor of 126 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 3: New York to run the place. I think like that 127 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 3: would be a significant improvement on where we are now. 128 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: We have actually a really good mayor in New York, 129 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,799 Speaker 1: which is why you'll notice I brought up the mayor 130 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: of Los Angeles instead, because the mayor of New York 131 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: would be great. But luckily, for a lot of the establishment, 132 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: he was not born in this country. But he's quite good. Okay. 133 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: So he was a mayor of Manchester, which is actually 134 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: pretty big, has a huge budget. Explained to us what 135 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: happened here. He got a special election. Just explained to 136 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: us how this worked. 137 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 3: You could only pick the Prime Minister from within Parliament. 138 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 3: You can't bring them in from outside. So he had 139 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 3: to find his way back into the House of Commons. 140 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 3: The mayor of Munchester doesn't sit in the House of Commons, 141 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 3: so there was this very convoluted, difficult process to just 142 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 3: get him in position so that the party could select him. 143 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 3: He had to find first of all, an MP, a 144 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 3: member of Parliament who was willing to down for him, 145 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 3: which is something that you know most politicians, you and 146 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 3: I would have met enough of them. 147 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: They had real main character energy. 148 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 3: You know, they do not think of themselves as the 149 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 3: supporting role in someone else's story. And yet he managed 150 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 3: to find someone after an awful lot of work, he 151 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 3: was prepared to do it. He then stood in Makersfield, 152 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 3: which is like a really quite you know, right wing seat, 153 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 3: socially conservative, I mean it had been labor before, but 154 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 3: now was firmly reform. I think Reform's sixth most popular seat, 155 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 3: very socially conservative, predominantly school leavers, predominantly white, predominantly older, 156 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 3: all of the demographic qualities that you would expect with 157 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: a conservative vote, and he managed to win that then. 158 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 3: I mean it was daring, Like genuinely before it most 159 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 3: of us were sitting there thinking, I'm really not sure 160 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 3: you can do that. So he used it as a 161 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 3: sort of launch pad for everything he wanted to do 162 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 3: with the Labor Party, as a sort of pilot project 163 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 3: for what you would do nationwide. 164 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: And the message. 165 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 3: You know, he gave way on a few things on Brexit, 166 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: like a few U turns, making himself slightly more liberal, 167 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 3: slightly more left wing, but predominantly he came through with 168 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 3: a sort of anti privatization message, community control, devolution of 169 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 3: power to local areas. He had like the message that 170 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 3: he kept on repeating was I don't want to be 171 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 3: funny about it was basically like we're not going to 172 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 3: turn into America. So, which is actually quite common in 173 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 3: British politics. You'll see it quite often. It can be 174 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 3: used by the right, it can be used by the 175 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 3: left at various times in history, which is like we're 176 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 3: not going to get to a position where we refuse 177 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 3: to talk to each other in the street anymore. 178 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 2: We're not going to divide like that. 179 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 3: We're going to find some kind of message that works 180 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 3: to unify communities across the country. So part of his 181 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 3: stump speech was, look at what's going on in the US, 182 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: We're not going to do that. That's telling and useful 183 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 3: because Nigel Faraja's message from the far right is very 184 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 3: much look at what's going on in America. 185 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: We're going to do that. 186 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 3: You know, he's proposing setting up essentially British ice, creating 187 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:55,479 Speaker 3: huge immigration detention centers, having a really quite vitriolic, conflict 188 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 3: based approach where you pitch voters against one another. So 189 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 3: it was sort of a reflect to a certain extent 190 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 3: of what was going on in the US, and he 191 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 3: was rounding it off to try and say, look, this 192 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 3: is our last chance to provide a progressive but quite 193 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 3: a uniting message that should be able to bring the 194 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 3: different tribes together and stop us going further down this park. 195 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 3: So he won, and now what, well, kir Starmer held 196 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 3: out for about two to three days, then he gave up. 197 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: That's the kind of British fortitude before I'm sorry, I'm 198 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: sorry I promised to be nicer to you. If I 199 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: didn't like you so much, I would be nicer to you. 200 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 2: I promise. That's extraordinary. 201 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 3: That I mean that genuinely does sound about the conversation 202 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 3: that an abuse that has with their victim. So he 203 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: held out for a little bit, for like two to 204 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 3: three days. I think, you know what, Okay, I'm going 205 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 3: to say something. Let me say something bad and good 206 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 3: about the British system. We select very poorly, and the 207 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 3: people that we put in that position are obviously not 208 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 3: up for it, not up to it. The British political 209 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 3: class is full of just the most inet staggering examples 210 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 3: of humankind, and it is extremely dispiriting. 211 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: Wait, we act in a reality to Ovijano's two times. Okay, 212 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: So as much as I want to rag on you 213 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: guys for your terrible food and bad weather, we're really 214 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: as stupid as you are. 215 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 2: Thank you. 216 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 3: I certainly I think that we could have a competition 217 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 3: there and then it would be pretty tight. What we 218 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: have is just this extremely informal constitutional arrangement that just 219 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 3: allows us to get rid really quick. And we and 220 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 3: so partly, actually the rate of change is not really 221 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 3: the problem, and the problem is why we keep on 222 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 3: putting such stupid people in that position. But the fact 223 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 3: that we get rid of them is actually, i think 224 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,719 Speaker 3: kind of to the credit of the system. So in 225 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 3: every case it happens for the same reason, which is 226 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 3: that they're very unpopular in the party when support them and. 227 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 2: What you can have. 228 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 3: No matter what formal rules in the party that you 229 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 3: want in the parliament in our constitution, none of those 230 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 3: rules matter. The basic cultural reality, and it is cultural, 231 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 3: is that when enough of your cabinet, you know, people 232 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 3: around you and government say to you, it's not working mate, 233 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 3: You've got to go, they go. They could be Boris Johnson, 234 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 3: they could be Liz Trust, they could be Kissed Armer, 235 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 3: very different personality types, very different contexts, but they always 236 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 3: just go. Now he's gone. The challengers, in so far 237 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 3: as there were any who were going to go up 238 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 3: against Burnham, have basically all stood down. Where Streeting, for instance, 239 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 3: representing the kind of more blair right neo liberal wing 240 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 3: of the Labor Party. That's not strictly fair really, but 241 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 3: you know, the more right wing economically of the Labor Party, 242 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 3: he stepped down. 243 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 2: He isn't going to run for it. There were some. 244 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 3: Hints that are kind of continuity Starmer candidate would give 245 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 3: it a go. They're not going for it either, So 246 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 3: it does seem like it's going to be a coronation 247 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 3: for Burnham probably in about a month's time, and then 248 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 3: we're going to see I mean, I think like one 249 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 3: of the most exciting experiments in British political culture that 250 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 3: we've seen in my lifetime. 251 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: Really explain why, well, he's just so unusual. He comes 252 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 2: from outside. 253 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 3: He was in Westminster before, he was in the Parliament before, 254 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 3: but he left and became Mayor of Manchester, and when 255 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 3: he did that he developed this real dislike for the 256 00:11:59,200 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 3: whole of Westminster. 257 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 2: The culture he dislikes. 258 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 3: Many of the things that you can legitimately dislike about 259 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 3: how we run politics in this country. 260 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 2: The need for. 261 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 3: Party loyalty, the culture that pushes against any kind of 262 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 3: cooperation on pragmatism and cast you into two tribal blocks 263 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 3: within Parliament. The use of a first past the post 264 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 3: electoral system to give a huge majority to the government 265 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 3: so that really they can do whatever they want. They 266 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 3: essentially function as a kind of elected dictatorship. The centralization 267 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 3: of power away from local communities so that even I 268 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 3: mean even decisions like who's going to fix the school 269 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 3: roof are usually made in London rather than in the 270 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 3: village that they operate in. Loads of the things that 271 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 3: have really held us back as a country's structural issue, 272 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 3: he feels quite strongly about them, So culturally it'll just 273 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 3: be fascinating to see this guy, who is a genuine 274 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 3: outsider at this point operate at the height of power, 275 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 3: but from a progressive view rather than a right wing 276 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 3: populist view that that kind of personality. 277 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 2: Usually comes from right. 278 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 3: And then policy wise, he basically has about as radical 279 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 3: agenda as people will have when it comes to progressive 280 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 3: politics in the UK. So it's look, a lot could 281 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 3: go wrong, and he has genuine flaws, a lot of them, 282 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: but there are real reasons to be at least modestly optimistic, 283 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: which is about as excited as I get. 284 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: So it just sounds to me, and again tell me 285 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: if I'm completely insane, but it sounds to me as 286 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: if you guys have of Zora Am who's about to 287 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: be your peer. 288 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 3: No no, no, no, no, no no no no, let's not 289 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 3: get carried away. 290 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: He is really impressive. 291 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 3: I mean from the videos I've seen of him, he's 292 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 3: tremendously impressive. 293 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Zorien is really impressive. 294 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: But it sounds like, you, guys know, your guy is 295 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: not as impressive as that. 296 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 3: My impression of looking at the New York mayor was 297 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 3: I was sort of thinking, apart from Tony Blair, I 298 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 3: don't think I've ever seen someone be so effective in 299 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 3: front of a camera in politics. 300 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: It is unbelievable to see this guy. He is just 301 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: so good at speaking to people. To may then. 302 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, I was very very struck by how effective 303 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 3: he was. Addie Burnham is charismatic, He is emotionally present. 304 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 3: He has a sort of humility and confidence in the 305 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 3: exact ratio that you want as a politician. He doesn't 306 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 3: come across as arrogant, but he clearly has enough arrogance 307 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 3: in him to have the drive to do it in. 308 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: The first place. Right, So he's very impressive. 309 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 3: I don't think he's anywhere near the kind of level 310 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 3: that we're talking about there, or indeed when it comes 311 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 3: like Tony Blair, but he's impressive. I mean, we're also 312 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 3: starting from a very low base level here. 313 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really interesting. So the idea here is that 314 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: you will have someone who is at least a little 315 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: bit a kind of left d ish, at least like 316 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: someone who is really trying to rethink how government works, 317 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: but from the left and not from the right. 318 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: Like correct, Yeah, that's right. 319 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 3: He's making moves duplicate on immigration and trans and Brexit, 320 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 3: these three issues that they feel you need to demonstrate 321 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 3: come some kind of sort of subservience to the right 322 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 3: on However, he's got a really long track record of 323 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 3: not doing that. He's been pretty vague in the way 324 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 3: that he's said it until now. What my hope is 325 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 3: on those issues is that he will basically say what's 326 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 3: been done is enough. We're not going to go any 327 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 3: further to the right on those I'm not expecting him 328 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 3: to reverse any of that. He is not going to 329 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 3: come out as much as I wish he would and 330 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: do a pro immigration speech tomorrow. I just don't think 331 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 3: it's going to happen. But I think he will be 332 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 3: less the clamor to try and plicate voters who will 333 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 3: never vote for you doesn't seem to be in him, 334 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 3: and to be honest that it's just been so comprehensively 335 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 3: demonstrated that that is a poor electoral strategy as much 336 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: as it is just a catastrophe for your moral foundation 337 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 3: as a party, but. 338 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 2: It's also just a very poor electoral strategy. 339 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 3: Then there's a fad that, look, we now reduced immigration 340 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 3: so much that this year we won't get the figures 341 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: until next year. But this year it's likely that it's 342 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 3: below one hundred thousand net migration into the country. Now 343 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 3: that is as low as it has been my lifetime. 344 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 3: It's also this is not a country that can run 345 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 3: without immigration economically. Where the debate is going to be 346 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 3: in a year's time is how much more economic damage 347 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 3: can we take? How much suffering of people going through 348 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 3: because we can't provide social services because we don't have 349 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 3: any immigrants coming in because we've basically stopped them from arriving. 350 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 3: So suddenly that debate, the salience of it, and the 351 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 3: tone I think is about to shift in the UK. 352 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 3: And if you can just hold out and not make 353 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: it any worse for twelve months, he should find that 354 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 3: blocked off so that he doesn't really need to make 355 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 3: any more concessions in the social area. 356 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: I want to talk about this idea that you just 357 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: brought up to me, which I think is really interesting 358 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: about placating people who will never roll for you, because 359 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: the conventional wisdom is that you need to tack to 360 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: the center in order to get the you know whatever. 361 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: The sixty percent of the country that's not that isn't 362 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: you know, extreme, say, But I want you to to 363 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: say more about this idea of placating people who will 364 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: never roll for you, because I don't think it's the 365 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: same thing. But I think sometimes politicians get confused. 366 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, So we used to very much have to work 367 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 3: towards the center because of the way that elections broke down. 368 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 2: It was a two party system. 369 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 3: You would have a majority of safe constituencies and you'd 370 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 3: have very few in the middle. And when I say few, 371 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 3: I mean like fifty seats in the middle out of 372 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 3: about six hundred and fifty which would change hands at all. 373 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 2: And they were all in middle England. 374 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 3: They were really quite centrist voters, broadly socially liberal, quite benign. 375 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,959 Speaker 3: But if you've fucked with the economy in any way, 376 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 3: they will punish you. And that was how it was 377 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 3: for me growing up. You had to basically fight in 378 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 3: the middle. That's what you did. You couldn't go too 379 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 3: far to the right and be nasty. You couldn't go 380 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 3: too far in the left, but the economy at risk. 381 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 3: That electoral landscape has now gone pretty much forever. It 382 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 3: was melted away and then reforged during Brexit, when in 383 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 3: a way that I think is much more familiar for 384 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 3: an American audience, we got split predominantly on cultural lines 385 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 3: rather than economic lines, and once that happened in our 386 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 3: last election, we started to shatter not from a two 387 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 3: party democracy but into at least a five party democracy, 388 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 3: and arguably a seven party democracy. So now we've got 389 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 3: a bunch of parties around the mid twenty to low thirties, Labor, 390 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: the Conservatives, Reform, the Greens, the Liberal Democrats, all operating 391 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 3: on around that space. What we find is that voters, 392 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 3: so on the right you have the Conservatives and Reform. 393 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 3: On the left the liberal left you have Labor, the 394 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 3: Liberal Democrats, the Greens. What we find is that voters 395 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 3: are not moving between those two groupings, between left and right, 396 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 3: between progressive and reactionary. We only had the movement between 397 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 3: eight to twelve percent of voters and the last election 398 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 3: between the camps, but they are moving at unbelievable speed 399 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 3: in a way they never have before with proper velocity 400 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 3: within the camp, within the left wing parties and within 401 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 3: the right wing parties. They've departed the Conservatives to support 402 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 3: reform on the right. On the left, they moved towards 403 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 3: labor to get the Tories. Now they're moving away from 404 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 3: labor towards the Greens, towards the Liberal Democrats. That means 405 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 3: that use really very little gain to appealing to the 406 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 3: other camp in an election, but there is an awful 407 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 3: lot to lose because they are willing to go for 408 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 3: different voters if they think that's going to work out 409 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 3: for them, and it has therefore changed most of the 410 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 3: fundamental dynamics that we operate to according in British politics. 411 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: So interesting, Ian, I'm sorry I was mean to you. 412 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: No, you've never been present. Will you still come back anyway? Well, 413 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 2: I mean I'll come the next time we have a 414 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 2: Prime minister. So I'll see you in two to three weeks. 415 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 3: And I expect bath they and improve the great truly. 416 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: Daniels Squadron is the founder of the States Project and 417 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: the author of the Fourth Branch, How State Government Can 418 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: Save Our Union. 419 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome, Daniel, Thank you, good to be here. 420 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the States project. 421 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 2: You know, if anyone is worried about our democracy, you know. 422 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: Which is if everyone listening to this podcast and also 423 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: may yes continue, well. 424 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: Good, So I'm glad that we start with agreement. There's 425 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: real concern about sort of the ongoing competitive elections in 426 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 2: this country, and anyone who's worried about that and isn't 427 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 2: looking at state legislatures is really missing the point. But 428 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: don't take my word for it. Donald Trump has been 429 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 2: obsessed with state legislatures going back to twenty twenty because 430 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 2: he knows that's the path to undermining competitive elections. He 431 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 2: tried to get Michigan state lawmakers to refuse to certify 432 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 2: the election in twenty twenty well before January sixth. One 433 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 2: of them agreed. By the way, he last summer personally 434 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 2: got on the phone to Texas state lawmakers and asked 435 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 2: them to start an arms race on mid decade week districting. 436 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 2: By the way, no Democratic president has ever personally gotten 437 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 2: on the phone to a bunch of rank and file 438 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 2: stated lawmakers. I can tell you that as a former 439 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: state senator. Just this spring, you know, he heired the 440 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 2: Federal Save Act to Jesus or the need to pass 441 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: it to being like Jesus. It was meant to take 442 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: power away from states executive orders as well. And so 443 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 2: the bad news is that most people other than Trump 444 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: aren't looking to state legislatures to try to save the democracy. 445 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 2: The States Project is, and that's the good news on 446 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: I have a new book out about it, called The 447 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 2: Fourth Branch that describes the people all this power states 448 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 2: have and what they can do about it. 449 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: You've been doing this for a long time. Give us 450 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: just a case on how it works and how you 451 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: do it. 452 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 2: I have been doing this a long time. If you 453 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 2: had told me in my mid twenties that I would 454 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 2: spend twenty years or so working in state legislatures, I 455 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: would say, what have I done wrong? 456 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: Exactly? 457 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's a longer conversation. But I actually 458 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 2: have chosen to stay working in this space, both in 459 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 2: the State Senate and as co founder of the States 460 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: Project with Adam Pittsburgh, because you know, life is short 461 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 2: and with any minute or dollar any of us have 462 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 2: to have an impact, we should have the biggest possible one, 463 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: and I believe that's what states do. So what the 464 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 2: State's Project does is it makes it possible for regular 465 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 2: people to come together and be supportive of these often 466 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 2: overlook states across many state races, across many states that 467 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: will impact who wins Congress in twenty six and twenty eight, 468 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 2: whether we have a free and fire presidential election, and 469 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: every domestic policy issue people care about, from jobs, to 470 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: the environment, to healthcare and more. And we make it 471 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 2: really easy. A lot of those folks form their own 472 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: giving circles. They get to choose which state they're going 473 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 2: to support, They get a lot of research, and in 474 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 2: the fourth branch, I try to make it really human 475 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: and interesting to understand the good, the bad, and the 476 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: bizarre of what it is to be in a state legislature, 477 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 2: what kind of power they have, and why when people 478 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 2: work on state legislatures, they're no longer observers to the 479 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 2: destruction of our democracy, but they actually could well determine 480 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: the outcome in saving it. 481 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: But I want a use case, So give me the 482 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: store of a state legislature that you put together a 483 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: giving circle for that you flipped. 484 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 2: Sure, let's talk about the Pennsylvania House. In twenty twenty two, Pennsylvania, 485 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 2: both chambers of the legislature were Republican controlled after twenty twenty, 486 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 2: the leadership in both chambers was signaling that they would 487 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 2: like to help Donald Trump get back into office, and 488 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 2: so the States Project, powered by giving circles, went into Pennsylvania. 489 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 2: We were by far collectively the largest giver in those races. 490 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 2: The Pennsylvania House flipped by sixty three votes, not sixty 491 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 2: three seats, sixty three votes in a single district, and 492 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 2: every giving circle was the difference maker there because they 493 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: fueled the tipping point, candidates being able to get off 494 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 2: the phones and no longer fundraising, instead be out on 495 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 2: the doors, knocking on doors and meeting candidates. Joanna McClinton 496 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 2: from West Philadelphia was able to come speaker. She is 497 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 2: held together a one seat majority as the first black 498 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: woman to lead a legislative chamber in Pennsylvania. And his 499 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 2: thought for education funding, to improve the election system, and 500 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 2: to expand the argument not just in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh 501 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 2: but across the state for what good governance and progressive 502 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: ideas mean. 503 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: And that all happened because how well, I'd say that 504 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: all happened for a few reasons. 505 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 2: One, folks were willing to look away from the shiny 506 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 2: object of national politics and the doom scrolling of their 507 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: feed and think strategically as though their choices mattered on outcomes, 508 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: and they formed giving circles because they didn't just think 509 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 2: I'm hopeless and helpless, so I'll do whatever most upsets me. 510 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 2: They thought I'm a player in this politics, even though 511 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: I've been taught I'm not, and I'm going to work 512 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 2: together with friends to have an impact. That's the first reason. 513 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 2: The second reason that happened is an incredible set of 514 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 2: state legislative candidates were freed up to go meet their constituents, 515 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: you know, practicing malli actual depocracy right where their time 516 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: was spent convincing the people who they were acting to 517 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 2: hire them, not the donors and special interests who drive 518 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 2: so much of politics, especially local politics. 519 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: So one of the things that I really like about 520 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:26,719 Speaker 1: state legislature races is that these races are much less expensive. 521 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: So giving you know, maxing out to a candidate in 522 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 1: a house race, or even giving just you know, a 523 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: couple hundred dollars which is not nothing, which is a 524 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: lot of money. Some of these house races are millions 525 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: of dollars. Tell us how much the state legislative races 526 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: are the budgets. 527 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: It's often cheaper to flip an entire state legislative chamber 528 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 2: than a single congressional district. I talk about this in 529 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 2: the Fourth Bratch. This is wild. The entire effort, political effort. 530 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,959 Speaker 2: When the Texas House, which needed to read district multiple 531 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 2: congressional districts, five was a pittance. Now, that's because Texas 532 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 2: is not that competitive. Let's talk about Virginia, which is competitive. 533 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 2: Twenty twenty five, the Virginia House was up the entire 534 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: budget for control of the Virginia House, which was a 535 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 2: one seat majority for Democrats. I think that election was 536 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 2: about one competitive congressional district. The Virginia House and Senate 537 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 2: acted to start a redistricting process that could have gained 538 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 2: four seats. Unfortunately, Virginia Supreme Court negated that vote and 539 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: wiped away three point one million virginians wishes. But here's 540 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 2: the craziest thing about that. To give you a sense 541 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 2: to the cause. In twenty twenty one, a single House 542 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 2: seat in Virginia was lost, which was the reason that 543 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 2: Virginia Supreme Court had a political majority for that terrible decision. 544 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 2: A single race in the Virginia House is like a 545 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: couple one hundred thousand dollars. If that race had been 546 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 2: won back in twenty twenty one, it would have meant 547 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: four congressional seats in twenty twenty six. Well, that's an 548 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 2: unbelievable will cost this gap. 549 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: These state housard are much cheaper, and they're much more foototball, 550 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: and their people aren't really paying attention to them, except no, 551 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: I mean. 552 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 2: The right wing is. Starting in the nineteen seventies, the 553 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 2: right wing started paying attention in a big way. Special 554 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 2: interests are because. 555 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: And that's why we have such crazy people in the House, 556 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: right in these states legislatures, right, oh yeah. 557 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 2: And in fact, I mean you know, and you know 558 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 2: they like to crazy up from the state legislature up 559 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 2: to Congress. You know, they gave us Matt Gates and 560 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 2: a lot of others. But you know they also can 561 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 2: do the opposite, you know, I like, I like talking 562 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 2: about like the States Project. You know, we knew about 563 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 2: James tall Rico and Jasmine Crockett and Democratic nominee for 564 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: Texas Governor Gina Hindehosa way back in twenty twenty one. 565 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 2: They're all members the House. So it's certainly where the 566 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 2: worst and the best come from. 567 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: I want you to talk about this because I think about, like, 568 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: for example, in Arizona, they have such insane laws that 569 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: come from the state Ledge. And you know, like, for example, 570 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: one of the laws that comes out of state Ledge 571 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: is that there's a tax incentive for data centers. There 572 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: is no way that a normal state legislator is cooking 573 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: this up. They are clearly getting guidance. So talk to 574 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: us about how this kind of crazy laws are coming 575 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: through and how the right is putting these people on 576 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: the state Ledge. 577 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. In the book, you know, I say that the 578 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: elected officials and the staff and the state capital are 579 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 2: just renters. It's the lobbyists who owned the place. They're 580 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 2: there permanently and they're building permanent infrastructure. If you're a 581 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 2: state lawmaker, you're part time, and a lot of states 582 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 2: they have no staff at all, and they face hundreds 583 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 2: or thousands of different proposals a year. So, you know, 584 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 2: lobbyists have an outsized influence in states, even compared to Congress. 585 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: And then you add in the fact that most people 586 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 2: aren't noticing what's going on. And then you add in 587 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: the fact that back in the nineteen seventies, the same 588 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 2: guy who founded the Heritage Foundation off their project twenty 589 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 2: twenty five, also founded ALEC, the American Legislative Exchange Council, 590 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: which then founded the State Palacing Network. So there's an 591 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: entire net work of folks who want to do away 592 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: with government capacity, wipe it away, let corporations do whatever 593 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 2: they want, replace individual civil liberties with a very specific 594 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 2: set of traditional conservative values in the law, and they 595 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 2: can run rough shot. You know, Arizona is a place 596 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: where not only is that kind of law getting passed, 597 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 2: but it's incredibly tight legislature. We've been within a couple 598 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 2: of seats in each chamber, and that's what you see 599 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: again and again. 600 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: One last thing about Arizona. There's a Democratic governor, Katie Hobbs, 601 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: and two Democratic senators. And one of the things that 602 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: we've seen is that Katie Hobbs has a very tough 603 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: time because the state House is very Republican and they're 604 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: constantly fighting with her and taking her power away. 605 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, you see this again and again. You know, 606 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 2: sometimes governor's races get noticed and then our power. You 607 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 2: see this havingly Josh Stein in North Carolina, a really 608 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 2: good governor in a super majority of the North Carolina 609 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 2: legislature is undermining him right and left, including by the way, 610 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 2: some breakaway Democrats. Because the another thing that have with 611 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 2: the legislatures is parties get kind of messed up. Experienced 612 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 2: that in New York and elsewhere. But I tell start 613 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 2: in the book about just like trying to regulate auction houses, 614 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 2: a really boring, simple idea, and colleague getter. Colleague comes 615 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 2: up to me and says, I have an issue. I 616 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: don't remember what it is, but talk to so and 617 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 2: so lobbyists. I have an issue. That course, guys have 618 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 2: a problem. And that's just on issue after issue, whether 619 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 2: it's data centers or auctions or you know, climate change 620 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 2: and energy costs. 621 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: Wow, why is that happening? 622 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 2: Well, i'd say, if you compare it to so, Congress 623 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 2: is broken because it's this huge partisan battle that's playing 624 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 2: for the campis right. But the things that work are 625 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 2: people notice what's happening. You have more professional, expert staff, 626 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 2: and it's a full time job. State legislatures. No one 627 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: notices what happens. In fact, I used to get yelled 628 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 2: at you're too worried about what the newspapers say. I 629 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: would say, well, that's public you know, the public is 630 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,239 Speaker 2: who we work for. You have very limited staff, very 631 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 2: early in their career. Some of them can be incredible, 632 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 2: but if it's just not enough with enough experience, and 633 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 2: it's a part time job, and I guess that there's 634 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 2: actually one of the things. Right, So state legislatures passed 635 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 2: ten times or one hundred times as many bills as Congress. 636 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 2: Stocks in Michigan had passed three hundred bills, while Congress 637 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: passed just a few. So there's just a lot more action. 638 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 2: I guess. The last thing all is think. You know, 639 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 2: I'd love doing this. Ask your listeners to think of 640 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 2: any domestic policy issue they care about. I know we 641 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 2: can't have a feedback loop, but on anyone, states have 642 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: done more harmorgo in the last fifteen years than the 643 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 2: federal government. There's just a lot of action, no public attention, 644 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 2: no staff and expertise, and. 645 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: There's a lot of legislation coming out of there. In 646 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: a way the federal government is in. 647 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 2: Right exactly, Like, what's your favorite issue? What's the issue? 648 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 2: You're just so frustrated America is not doing anything about 649 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 2: climate all right, Well, so this is a great one. 650 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: You know. President Obama joined the Paris Climate Accords. You 651 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: were probably happy about that than Trump left, Biden joined 652 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 2: Trump left. Well, the three presidents were chasing each other 653 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 2: around the Mulberry Bush. You know that states adding up 654 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 2: to the world's second largest economy past climate standards stronger 655 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 2: than the Paris Climate Accords California, New York, Illinois, Washington. 656 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 2: So even despite all of that, you've seen climate In fact, Texas, 657 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 2: a state with a lot of problems, produces more clean 658 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 2: energy than another state in the country, and many multiples 659 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 2: what it did two decades ago. The conversation and the 660 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 2: federal government is about presidents fighting with each other on 661 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 2: the state level, its policies, getting interactive. 662 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: I'd love you to talk about how you do giving 663 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: circles and. 664 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 2: How those work. So the whole idea of giving circles 665 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 2: is really that if people are willing to take a 666 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 2: step back and try to have the biggest impact they can, 667 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 2: we want to make that as easy as possible. So 668 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 2: you can actually go to fourth branchbook dot com to 669 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: learn about giving circles and they create a giving group. 670 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 2: It's actually most of the giving circles are women. More 671 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 2: than eighty percent of them are run by women. Who 672 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 2: have a giving group two three, four leaders. They meet regularly, 673 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 2: They go to their friends and neighbors, and they make 674 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 2: the case for states. They then get to choose which 675 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: state they're going to impact, and every dollar they raise 676 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 2: ends up being contributed to that to the candidates and 677 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: campaigns themselves. The ones on the ground have more money 678 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 2: and less need to raise money from special interests, so 679 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 2: the candiate can be out knocking on doors, do and 680 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 2: go things we talked about. Then all the information we 681 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 2: get from those states are shared with the giving circles. 682 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 2: And what we see is we have more than two 683 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 2: hundred of them around the country. Is they become real 684 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 2: experts on this. Melissa Walker, who founded the program and 685 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 2: runs a giving circle, talks about walking through the world 686 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 2: with more of a sense of power than she had 687 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 2: in the past. We really let folks who want to 688 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: be leaders of their own thing have their own thing. 689 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 2: They make a name, We have incredible names. Save our states, 690 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 2: get a SOS, the Bluebirds, a whole group of them, 691 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 2: and it becomes their own identity and their own project. 692 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it also more importantly, it means that you 693 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: don't have to give as much money. 694 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 2: Right, the democracy is at risk here, right, you know, 695 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 2: the next competitor to the next election. We have we 696 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: like saying the next election is the most important, Likekingwism. 697 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 2: I'm now saying the next election might be the last 698 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 2: election of our life. Right, So it's a different kind 699 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 2: of importance. But every dollar you give goes ten times 700 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 2: or one hundred times as far. What are the odds 701 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 2: that you're going to change the outcome of a congressional 702 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 2: race that's costing twenty to forty million dollars or a 703 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 2: presidential race has cost him in the billions? Realistically? You 704 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 2: know you're not, do you know? In Virginia in twenty 705 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 2: nineteen it came down to a tie for who was 706 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 2: in control of that chamber. I don't mean a tie 707 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 2: of number of seats. I mean a tie of number 708 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 2: of voters in the last election, a tie. The speaker 709 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 2: in the Alaska House today Bryce Edgeman. He was originally 710 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 2: elected because the name was pulled out of a hat 711 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 2: because the race was tied seven hundred and twenty five 712 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 2: to seven hundred and twenty five. Everything you do in 713 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 2: state legislatures is vastly more likely to change the outcome, 714 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 2: including with the money. 715 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: Wow, that is so interesting and I think really so important, 716 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 1: and it just is such a good example of how 717 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: we have to just be laser focused on all of 718 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: these things. Any state legislatures that just give me the 719 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: ones that you're watching right now, Yeah. 720 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 2: For sure. So you know, we need to make sure 721 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 2: there's enough state to add up to two hundred and 722 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: seventy electoral votes that will actually allow our free and 723 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 2: fair presidential election. Whoever's elected this November into state power 724 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 2: will determine whether those states are undermining that ability in 725 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 2: the next two years. And we know there's this major 726 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 2: fight on redistricting that Donald Trump has set off where 727 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 2: states have to act to restore fairness to the congressional map. 728 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 2: So based on those two factors, talking about Arizona, those 729 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 2: legislative chambers can be flipped. They haven't been in a generation, 730 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 2: but it would fundamentally change the state. Because we really 731 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 2: hope Katie Hobbs will be re elected. Michigan, the state 732 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 2: Senate has a one seat majority. The state House majority 733 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 2: was lost in twenty four. We want to get that 734 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 2: back along with the new governor. Minnesota, same story House 735 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,439 Speaker 2: was lost Senator is tight. Want to win that one back. 736 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 2: Wisconsin has a chance to undo the last decade, the 737 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 2: kind of consequences and hangover of the twenty ten elections 738 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 2: that we're still living with by flipping both chambers. Pennsylvania, 739 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 2: we want to hold that House majority that is so 740 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,720 Speaker 2: thin that we talked about before and get the Senate flipped. 741 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 2: New Hampshire as one of the strangest legislatures in the 742 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 2: country four hundred members of the New Hampshire House, but 743 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 2: we think we can flip it. In North Carolina. We 744 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 2: want to make sure to break that supermajority that is 745 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 2: mecapping Joshtein's ability to improve lives from North. 746 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: Carolinias Daniel, thank you, thank you for coming on, Thanks. 747 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 2: For having me. I always love talking about state legislatures 748 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 2: the best. 749 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 750 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 751 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 752 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 753 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.