1
00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:05,880
Speaker 1: The prospect of saying no and never knowing what it

2
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:10,440
Speaker 1: would be like seemed far worse to me than saying

3
00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:15,520
Speaker 1: yes and taking the chance that maybe I'd regret it,

4
00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:16,919
Speaker 1: but maybe I wouldn't.

5
00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,840
Speaker 2: Welcome to Off the Cup my personal anti anxiety antidote.

6
00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:25,400
Speaker 3: I'm just getting back from.

7
00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,120
Speaker 2: Bravocn which was supremely fine, and I will have a

8
00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,480
Speaker 2: bravolebrity on the podcast, so and so keep your ears

9
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:33,800
Speaker 2: open for that.

10
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:35,240
Speaker 3: I know you guys love those.

11
00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:37,720
Speaker 2: And don't forget to check out our new Talking Coffee

12
00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:39,200
Speaker 2: and Talking Politics episodes.

13
00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:42,560
Speaker 3: Okay, we've had great.

14
00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,400
Speaker 2: Guests here, as you know, actors, athletes, politicals, Broadway stars.

15
00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,440
Speaker 2: Not too many writers though, And I love talking to

16
00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,560
Speaker 2: writers because I'm a writer and it's a special job.

17
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:59,760
Speaker 2: It's a special existence. It's thrilling and tortuous all of

18
00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 2: the same time. And remember we talked to We talked

19
00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,200
Speaker 2: to Brad Thorr for a great Off the Cup episode.

20
00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,640
Speaker 2: We talked about writer's block, which is the worst. And

21
00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,000
Speaker 2: we talked to Mollie jong Fast, one of the best

22
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,960
Speaker 2: writers I know in the political space where I work. Also,

23
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,200
Speaker 2: her memoir is terrific. But writers know this. Writers have

24
00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,199
Speaker 2: to write. I have to write.

25
00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,000
Speaker 3: It's like breathing. I don't feel normal unless I write.

26
00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,880
Speaker 2: I can't always make sense of something until I've written

27
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,360
Speaker 2: about it. Writing is therapeutic, but it's also just the

28
00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,080
Speaker 2: way my brain works, you know, and it has since

29
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,679
Speaker 2: I was a kid. I hear a voice in my

30
00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,759
Speaker 2: head and it's telling a story that happens all day

31
00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,680
Speaker 2: long to me. And if I don't exercise it, get

32
00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,840
Speaker 2: it out it like it makes me feel schizophrenic, like

33
00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,320
Speaker 2: someone's talking in my head and I need to get

34
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,600
Speaker 2: it out. I'm writing my mental health memoir right now,

35
00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,960
Speaker 2: and boy is it a challenge. Unlike my other books,

36
00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,200
Speaker 2: this one's about me, which is weird and very different.

37
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,320
Speaker 3: My guest today can totally relate. I know.

38
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,000
Speaker 2: She's a best selling author, journalist, television writer. She's a

39
00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,799
Speaker 2: long time staff writer at The New Yorker. She wrote

40
00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,600
Speaker 2: for the HBO comedy series How Too with John Wilson.

41
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,000
Speaker 3: She wrote the best seller The Orchid Thief, which was

42
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,320
Speaker 3: adapted into a fabulous film called Adaptation, and her memoir

43
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,360
Speaker 3: joy Ride is out now. Susan or Lean, Welcome to

44
00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:29,960
Speaker 3: Off the cop.

45
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,320
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to be with you.

46
00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,600
Speaker 3: I'm so thrilled to talk to you, both because.

47
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,000
Speaker 2: I love talking to writers, but also because I need

48
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,360
Speaker 2: some advice. We'll we'll get to the advice. But I

49
00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,200
Speaker 2: wanted to read something that you wrote in the intro

50
00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:49,120
Speaker 2: of your memoir joy Ride, because it really resonated with me.

51
00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,120
Speaker 2: You say, I've always dreaded the idea of writing a memoir.

52
00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,079
Speaker 2: I'm used to looking outward, not inward. I like to

53
00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:02,320
Speaker 2: bring attention to hidden worlds, not to my own. And

54
00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,919
Speaker 2: as a political journalist and writer, I mean I totally relate.

55
00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,639
Speaker 2: The introspection stuff is hard, you know, talk about your process.

56
00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,800
Speaker 3: Why did you decide it was time for a memoir.

57
00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,440
Speaker 1: I think there were a couple of things working kind

58
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 1: of together that resulted in this, because really it was

59
00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,440
Speaker 1: not something that I thought, oh, I've got to write

60
00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:24,000
Speaker 1: a memoir.

61
00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:24,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

62
00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,720
Speaker 1: In fact, I think I tended to think I'm never

63
00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,720
Speaker 1: going to write a memoir. A couple of things occurred.

64
00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:36,080
Speaker 1: One was COVID. I think there was a lot of

65
00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:41,520
Speaker 1: introspection and reflection that all of us kind of engaged

66
00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:47,240
Speaker 1: in during COVID. Secondly, someone pointed out to me that

67
00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,960
Speaker 1: it had been twenty five years since I'd written The

68
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,480
Speaker 1: Orc and Thief, and that really hit me. It was like, Wow,

69
00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,520
Speaker 1: I've been doing this for a long time, and The

70
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,640
Speaker 1: Orca Thief was not my first book, so it really

71
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:07,400
Speaker 1: felt profound. And Thirdly, I had talked to my editor

72
00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:12,240
Speaker 1: about doing a book about writing, and part of me thought, well,

73
00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,640
Speaker 1: I'm interested in writing about writing, but that sounds very boring.

74
00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:23,120
Speaker 1: It sounds like not a very interesting writing task, and

75
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:29,800
Speaker 1: it felt like just sort of out of context. Lessons

76
00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:36,480
Speaker 1: about writing seemed sort of easily dismissed. It just didn't

77
00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,560
Speaker 1: seem like it would register, yeah, but instead putting it

78
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:46,240
Speaker 1: in context talking about the choices I've made professionally, and

79
00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,320
Speaker 1: in order to have you understand that, I needed to

80
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,360
Speaker 1: share with you who I am. Right so slowly I

81
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,159
Speaker 1: found myself doing this thing that felt like sort of

82
00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:05,359
Speaker 1: a hybrid between a memoir that was personal but that

83
00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:11,000
Speaker 1: was also very professional about what I've done, why I've

84
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,360
Speaker 1: done it, how I've done it. From there, the two

85
00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:16,720
Speaker 1: things sort of merged.

86
00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:22,279
Speaker 2: This is so this is so helpful, and it really

87
00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,960
Speaker 2: is a familiar story because I wanted to write. I

88
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,680
Speaker 2: had a nervous breakdown in twenty twenty one and started

89
00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,240
Speaker 2: dealing with severe anxiety that I've had for a long

90
00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 2: time but just kind of pushed it away and embarked

91
00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,200
Speaker 2: on like a mental health journey, right, started talking about it.

92
00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,680
Speaker 2: And so I went to my book agent and I said,

93
00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,200
Speaker 2: I want to write about my mental health, but I

94
00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 2: don't want it to be a memoir. And he's like, no, No,

95
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:46,599
Speaker 2: it's going to have to be bigger for anyone to

96
00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,680
Speaker 2: understand this mental health story, They're going to have to

97
00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,680
Speaker 2: know who you were, what you came from, what you've done, right.

98
00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,960
Speaker 2: And it was really hard for me to accept that

99
00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,600
Speaker 2: and wrap my mind around I'm gonna have to talk

100
00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:06,479
Speaker 2: about like my childhood, right, my marriage right, right, like

101
00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,000
Speaker 2: how did you get over that hump of Like, Okay,

102
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,520
Speaker 2: I'm really going to just expose it all.

103
00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,320
Speaker 1: Well, the minute I wrote the sentence I was born in,

104
00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,919
Speaker 1: I thought, I don't think I can do this, right.

105
00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:19,800
Speaker 3: That's the worst.

106
00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:25,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just thought, oh, please spare me. And yet

107
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:31,000
Speaker 1: I found you know, inevitably, if you are trying to

108
00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,880
Speaker 1: give people context in terms of saying, let me tell

109
00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:39,240
Speaker 1: you about this specific part of my life, well, it

110
00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:45,719
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense completely removed from the greater the story

111
00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,760
Speaker 1: of who you are. But it really filled me with dread.

112
00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:56,159
Speaker 1: Yeah to say I was born in Cleveland, Ohio, just yeah.

113
00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,000
Speaker 3: To these parents and yeah.

114
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,400
Speaker 1: So part of what I did to sort of ease

115
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,120
Speaker 1: myself into that is I didn't start with that in

116
00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:13,680
Speaker 1: the book. I thought, I literally cannot start with my birth,

117
00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:20,360
Speaker 1: it's just too horrible. And instead I began with more

118
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:27,160
Speaker 1: of an introduction that eased me into saying, Okay, now

119
00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,680
Speaker 1: that you and I are talking, namely you the reader

120
00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:36,119
Speaker 1: and me, let me sort of pull the camera back

121
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:41,400
Speaker 1: for a minute and just give you the briefless yeah,

122
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,680
Speaker 1: who I am, where I'm from, how I ended up

123
00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,120
Speaker 1: where we are right now, which is me writing a

124
00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:54,520
Speaker 1: book that you're reading. Yes, And I think it's probably

125
00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:59,760
Speaker 1: a healthy sign if you doubt that anyone is going

126
00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,440
Speaker 1: to go, oh, tell me where you were born. I mean,

127
00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,880
Speaker 1: I think that represents this sort of healthy amount of humility,

128
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:13,040
Speaker 1: of modesty and humility where you feel like, well, I

129
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,520
Speaker 1: don't think it's such an important fact, but.

130
00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,160
Speaker 2: I think when we're you're used to writing other people's stories, right,

131
00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 2: which is what I do too. I tell the story

132
00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,360
Speaker 2: of politicians and politics and groups of people and communities

133
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,240
Speaker 2: or war victims, right, You look at yourself and you're like,

134
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,240
Speaker 2: my life is not as interesting as anyone I've written about.

135
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,440
Speaker 2: Oh right, do you have that self doubt?

136
00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,520
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think that was probably the hardest thing for

137
00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,040
Speaker 1: me to deal with. As I was writing, there was

138
00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:46,240
Speaker 1: a voice in my head saying, who cares? Who should

139
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:51,319
Speaker 1: care about this? Who cares? The fact is that again,

140
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,200
Speaker 1: I think that is not a bad sign. I think

141
00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:01,640
Speaker 1: it's useful to say to yourself, all right, if I've

142
00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,800
Speaker 1: chosen to write this, I need to explain why this

143
00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:12,920
Speaker 1: is worth writing, right, And I'm a very good advocate

144
00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,120
Speaker 1: for the people I'm writing about, who are not me

145
00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,880
Speaker 1: to know, I have to advocate for myself.

146
00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,280
Speaker 2: And like in the way that you tell a reader,

147
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you why this person is so

148
00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,640
Speaker 2: fascinating you have to read a whole book about him,

149
00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:30,760
Speaker 2: you now have to say, I'm going to it's my

150
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:32,880
Speaker 2: job as a writer to tell you why you might

151
00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:34,280
Speaker 2: want to read a whole book about.

152
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:39,440
Speaker 1: Me exactly, And even though it might feel at first uncomfortable,

153
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,840
Speaker 1: you do have to embrace it, like this is another

154
00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,960
Speaker 1: one of my projects, this is another story to tell,

155
00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,559
Speaker 1: and in truth, when I think about what I've done

156
00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:58,520
Speaker 1: as a journalist. I have genuinely had an interesting life,

157
00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:04,040
Speaker 1: even I can say, you know, completely without hesitation, I've

158
00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,640
Speaker 1: had an unusual life. I've done a million really interesting things.

159
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 1: I've met lots and lots of interesting people, and that

160
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,440
Speaker 1: alone gives me some sense like this is a story

161
00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:19,160
Speaker 1: worth telling.

162
00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I deserve this, this, this is yeah, this is

163
00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,600
Speaker 2: the right thing to do. And I want to talk

164
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,160
Speaker 2: about your very interesting life. But what was you know?

165
00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 2: We get to these we get to these decision points

166
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,280
Speaker 2: over the course of sharing our story, and do I

167
00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,440
Speaker 2: share this? Do I not share this? How much of

168
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,520
Speaker 2: this do I share? How do I contextualize this? What

169
00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,880
Speaker 2: was the scariest moment you got to where you were

170
00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,480
Speaker 2: really like perseverating over whether to share something.

171
00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 1: That went on throughout the book.

172
00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,760
Speaker 3: Certainly, okay, a series of scary moments.

173
00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:03,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. So not so much about professional successes and failures

174
00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:08,720
Speaker 1: that I felt like they were all legitimate, but writing

175
00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:15,000
Speaker 1: more personally, first of all, because it involves other people

176
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:16,600
Speaker 1: who are alive.

177
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:17,920
Speaker 3: That's the part I'm dealing with.

178
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:24,559
Speaker 1: They're alive, Yeah, and that gets complicated, even though obviously

179
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,959
Speaker 1: writing ninety percent of the time is about other people

180
00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,520
Speaker 1: who are alive, And it's just that these are the

181
00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,560
Speaker 1: people in your life who you are going to encounter

182
00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:45,600
Speaker 1: repeatedly again. And I think the sense of what do

183
00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:52,840
Speaker 1: you owe them, what amount of consideration do you owe them?

184
00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:58,040
Speaker 1: What is legitimate to share with readers, what's not legitimate?

185
00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,400
Speaker 1: That's really tough and I found it. There's not a

186
00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:09,160
Speaker 1: one solution to that. I think each time you get

187
00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:14,839
Speaker 1: close to writing about something that's personal, that's revealing that

188
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:20,480
Speaker 1: and particularly that involves other people. Yeah, there's a kind

189
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:27,520
Speaker 1: of internal battle about is this fair? Is it necessary?

190
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,880
Speaker 1: Do I get to do this?

191
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:33,280
Speaker 3: Yeah?

192
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,400
Speaker 2: And in some cases you were writing about people who

193
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,360
Speaker 2: have passed, and that's another that brings other questions, Right,

194
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,120
Speaker 2: how do I Yeah, I can say whatever I want,

195
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,400
Speaker 2: but I still want to be responsible about it and

196
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:45,160
Speaker 2: all of those things too.

197
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:50,520
Speaker 1: That's tough too, And I think that there are a

198
00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 1: lot of different ways to approach this. Some people say,

199
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:59,000
Speaker 1: I take no prisoners, I'm going to tell every story

200
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:04,080
Speaker 1: and myself out. Yeah. Yeah, it's my right in the

201
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,680
Speaker 1: eyes of the law, even to tell my story. I

202
00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,120
Speaker 1: think you have to find your own moral kind of

203
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:18,120
Speaker 1: landing place to say this. I can say this much,

204
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:23,800
Speaker 1: but I'm also going to draw the line. Yeah, I mean,

205
00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,040
Speaker 1: you have to wake up the day your book is

206
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,920
Speaker 1: published and be able to look in the mirror and

207
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,320
Speaker 1: say I made the right choices, or I made choices

208
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:39,760
Speaker 1: that I thought about very deliberately and very carefully. Sometimes

209
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,720
Speaker 1: we make the wrong choices, but you certainly want to

210
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:49,160
Speaker 1: actively say I've thought about this right, I've considered it

211
00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:54,280
Speaker 1: from every different direction, and I am choosing to proceed

212
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:59,760
Speaker 1: this way. I mean, it's difficult writing about my parents.

213
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,880
Speaker 1: Both my parents are gone, but my brother and sister

214
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:08,880
Speaker 1: are around, and they they have a stake in whatever

215
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,720
Speaker 1: portrayal I make of my parents. So it doesn't stop

216
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,679
Speaker 1: merely with the person that you're writing about. Sure it

217
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,720
Speaker 1: has a radiating impact on the people in their lives.

218
00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,440
Speaker 1: So it's always complicated.

219
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,320
Speaker 2: When I told my agent I was going to do

220
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,720
Speaker 2: what I was going to do, he said, You'll have

221
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,800
Speaker 2: to find your pro's voice, you know, because I write

222
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,280
Speaker 2: in the context of whether it's you know, a short

223
00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,040
Speaker 2: column or long form as like an opinion journalist. I

224
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,880
Speaker 2: needed to find a different kind of voice to tell

225
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,080
Speaker 2: this story. Did you have to find a different writing

226
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 2: style to do this book, or could you really.

227
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:58,080
Speaker 4: Just yeah, absolutely, I tell me I probably spent the

228
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,880
Speaker 4: first six or eight months after I got my book

229
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,960
Speaker 4: contract just kind of.

230
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:10,280
Speaker 1: Thinking through what is my who am I in this book?

231
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 1: And how do I talk to the reader? Is it?

232
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:21,160
Speaker 1: What's the tone? What's the voice? How do I how

233
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:26,920
Speaker 1: do I kind of create a persona that will carry

234
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,320
Speaker 1: me through the entire book. I think you always have

235
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,720
Speaker 1: a persona, and I don't mean that in an artificial sense,

236
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:40,760
Speaker 1: but there is a tone that you kind of adopt

237
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,400
Speaker 1: a nurture in your writing. This wasn't going to be

238
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:50,000
Speaker 1: the same as when I'm writing profiles of other people

239
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:55,400
Speaker 1: or you know, doing immersion journalism. This was going to

240
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,960
Speaker 1: be a different voice. What is that voice? How into

241
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 1: is it? How confessional?

242
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 3: How and authoritative?

243
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:05,680
Speaker 1: And right?

244
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:06,360
Speaker 3: Yeah?

245
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:13,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it was definitely a process of trying it

246
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:20,240
Speaker 1: out and refining and feeling my way until I felt

247
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:26,960
Speaker 1: very grounded in a voice that was I wanted to

248
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,760
Speaker 1: talk to the reader as if it he or she

249
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 1: were someone who had read my work, so they were

250
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,880
Speaker 1: familiar with me, but really didn't know a lot about me.

251
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:46,120
Speaker 1: I didn't know how I got to where I am, right,

252
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:53,000
Speaker 1: So I wrote as if the reader were someone who

253
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 1: was sitting next to me in an airplane who said, oh,

254
00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,360
Speaker 1: I read that book of yours, So who are you like?

255
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,160
Speaker 1: How did you end up at the New Yorker? How

256
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:09,800
Speaker 1: did you end up writing books? So I assumed that

257
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,919
Speaker 1: they had a pre existing interest in me without knowing

258
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:14,760
Speaker 1: much about me.

259
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:16,800
Speaker 3: Sure that which is like a safe bet.

260
00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,639
Speaker 2: It's a safe bet someone's interested in you're, you know,

261
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:21,280
Speaker 2: familiar with your.

262
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,040
Speaker 3: Work, They're going to buy a book about.

263
00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 1: You exactly, And that I somehow kind of adopted that.

264
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,760
Speaker 1: It was almost like play acting that I imagined this

265
00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:43,800
Speaker 1: very specific relationship with a reader who said, who was

266
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,879
Speaker 1: saying to me, well, how did you end up doing

267
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:49,120
Speaker 1: what you did?

268
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:50,280
Speaker 3: It's really smart.

269
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 1: It helped me make decisions about how detailed to get,

270
00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:02,680
Speaker 1: how personal to get, how so what point was it?

271
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,359
Speaker 1: You know, there were certainly plenty of things I left

272
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:12,320
Speaker 1: out that either seemed irrelevant or too personal in a

273
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:19,359
Speaker 1: way that I didn't feel comfortable sharing, or mostly just

274
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,120
Speaker 1: in the interest of keeping the story moving. I could

275
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,439
Speaker 1: leave that out. I could leave out you know, certain

276
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 1: I didn't go into great detail about my childhood. I

277
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,200
Speaker 1: didn't think I certainly explained it. I talked a lot

278
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,919
Speaker 1: about my parents in the context of how I felt

279
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,639
Speaker 1: they influenced me as a writer.

280
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, the parts that mattered that wereman to your story

281
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:48,840
Speaker 2: writing stories.

282
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, giving you some idea of who

283
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:58,159
Speaker 1: they were, but not lingering endlessly on their story. Right.

284
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,160
Speaker 1: If I were writing a very different kind of memoir,

285
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,239
Speaker 1: I would have gone on at great length and you know,

286
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,920
Speaker 1: dug much deeper into my parents and their psychology in

287
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,959
Speaker 1: so short but that didn't feel necessary for this book.

288
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,479
Speaker 2: I want to read another part from the introduction because

289
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,359
Speaker 2: it also really spoke to me. You say, I have

290
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 2: journeyed in the land of giants, waving my pencil dreaming.

291
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,640
Speaker 2: I dreamed of becoming a writer, and then I became one.

292
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,920
Speaker 2: And now I want to tell you why. I wake

293
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 2: up every day amazed by that fact. Writing has been

294
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,480
Speaker 2: the only job I've ever had, the only work I've

295
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,119
Speaker 2: done since nineteen seventy eight. It feels like I started yesterday,

296
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,159
Speaker 2: although I'm also aware of how many stories and books

297
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,160
Speaker 2: I've written and how many years have whipped by. Writing

298
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,320
Speaker 2: always feels new because you never build equity. Every sentence

299
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 2: is a slippery invention, a bit of quicksilver I released

300
00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 2: to the world, and then it's time to invent the

301
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,959
Speaker 2: next one. That's why being a writer is never boring.

302
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,160
Speaker 2: But that's also why it's always a little terrifying. Why

303
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,640
Speaker 2: every time I've sat down to write since nineteen seventy eight,

304
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,959
Speaker 2: I wonder if this is the time I simply won't

305
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,919
Speaker 2: be able to do it and words will fail me.

306
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:35,080
Speaker 3: But so far, so good. I mean, it's so brilliantly said.

307
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 2: And you capture this weird dichotomy, this immense honor and

308
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 2: humility that comes with writing and telling other people's stories,

309
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,880
Speaker 2: but also the excitement and the terror, the self doubt,

310
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 2: the gratitude that we get to do this for a living.

311
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,520
Speaker 2: It can be hard to remember just how lucky we are,

312
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,960
Speaker 2: especially in those moments where the work itself is just hard.

313
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 2: Like covering this iteration of politics for me is hard.

314
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,879
Speaker 2: It's not fun, it's not rewarding. But I still have

315
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 2: to pinch myself and be like, I can't believe I'm

316
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:05,679
Speaker 2: writing about, you know, this election.

317
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 3: I'm on the front row of history.

318
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,119
Speaker 2: I still have to tell myself this is an incredibly

319
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,120
Speaker 2: fortunate place that I, you know, in which I sit.

320
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:15,880
Speaker 3: You have that experience too.

321
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 1: Very very much. The fact is it's not easy. It's

322
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:26,680
Speaker 1: not an easy job. Creating something new is never easy.

323
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 1: Each time, literally every sentence is something new you're inventing,

324
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 1: and it's even though you've done it many times, you're

325
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 1: not writing the same sentence ever more than once. So

326
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,400
Speaker 1: there's this constant pressure of I have to create something now,

327
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 1: I have to make a new idea, I have to

328
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 1: produce a new thought. However, on the flip side of that,

329
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 1: what could be a more privileged position to be in

330
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: than to be, first of all, in a position of

331
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 1: getting to learn about the world, be consuming the world

332
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:23,439
Speaker 1: that very primary level, and then having people listen to

333
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 1: you as you tell them about it. I mean, it's

334
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:32,159
Speaker 1: an incredible privilege. It's thrilling. It couldn't be more exciting.

335
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 1: I mean, there are times when I'm stepping into a

336
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 1: new world and I literally will be able to picture

337
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: myself in this new environment, meeting new people and think,

338
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is what I do for a living,

339
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: This is really what I do. I come up with

340
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: an idea and I get to go explore the idea.

341
00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 1: It's amazing. But I do think that those are the

342
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: two very distinct parts of the process. That one that

343
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: fills you with excitement, the being out in the world

344
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 1: and meeting people and reporting and researching, which is really

345
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: a thrill. And then the writing part where it's suddenly,

346
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: oh my god, how do I tell this story?

347
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 3: Yes?

348
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, And sometimes for me, putting the word puzzle

349
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 2: together is really fun.

350
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 3: I really enjoy that part.

351
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 2: And like I said, I hear it in my head

352
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 2: and so making it sound lyrical, making it sound like

353
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 2: my voice, whatever, that can be fun, but it's it's

354
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 2: also the hardest part of anything we do is the creation.

355
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 1: The creation part, Yeah, I mean looking at a blank

356
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 1: screen on a computer.

357
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 3: Don't even get me.

358
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that. You know sometimes when I when

359
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: I begin a new book, looking at that when you

360
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 1: open your first document and you save it with the

361
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: title of right, yeah, and then you look at it

362
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 1: and there's nothing there.

363
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 3: Zero work count zero.

364
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, the word count is zero. So you write the

365
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: name of the book again, so you now have a

366
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: word count.

367
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you feel you know, you look at that

368
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 5: blank page and often I just think it's hard to

369
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 5: believe that within a certain amount of time.

370
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: This will now, this will become a document of one

371
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand words, but I've got to come

372
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: up with those. Nobody can help me. It's you know,

373
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: I rely a lot on my husband for brainstorming, and

374
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: he reads everything I write, but I can never say

375
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: to him, could you write that sentence? I mean, I'm stuck,

376
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: Will you write the sentence? Nobody can do that.

377
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 3: Oh, it's the same my husband.

378
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 2: When I'm very overworked, my husband be like because he's

379
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 2: great for brainstorming too, and he'll be like, can I help, Like,

380
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: could you write this?

381
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: No?

382
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, no.

383
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 1: And it's interesting even if you go to an editor

384
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: who's your wonderful, trusted editor and you say kind of stuck, right,

385
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: and they say, well, you know, let's talk it out.

386
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 3: But ultimately you still have to do it.

387
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's where it can feel very solitary because

388
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:45,719
Speaker 1: nobody can No one knows what you know at that point.

389
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: No one and of course, unless you're collaborating with someone else,

390
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: no one should do more than just brainstorm with you.

391
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: But it ultimately comes out of you, and that can

392
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: be it feels like yeah, yeah, it can be really scary.

393
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 1: And then when you write a set really works, then

394
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 1: you feel like, oh my God, this is so much fun.

395
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 2: This is so ac Oh and that. Then you've got momentum.

396
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: Then you've got inspiration. Oh if I could make that

397
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 2: sound good, you know, Yeah, there's hope.

398
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 3: There's hope here.

399
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 2: Okay, I could talk about writing forever with you, But

400
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 2: I do want to know more about about you.

401
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 3: What what kind of kid were you? I always like

402
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 3: to ask.

403
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: I was a fairly I read like crazy. I love

404
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: to read, so I was definitely a bookworm. But I

405
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: was also very active athletic. You know. I was a

406
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: horse girl. When I was a kid, I was an extrovert.

407
00:26:54,160 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: I was social. Starting when I was about five years old,

408
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: I began writing little books and little stories. So early

409
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: on I was very enchanted by the idea of writing,

410
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: even when I was really young, in a way that

411
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: seems precocious, or at least you know, when you're that age,

412
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: writing seems like several steps beyond. You know, you've just

413
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: learned to read.

414
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 3: Yes, right, like, who do you think you are?

415
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: Right?

416
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 3: I do the same thing.

417
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: I love the idea of making permanent little stories. So

418
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: I would often write little books about our family vacations,

419
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: about just little stories that I came up with I loved.

420
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 1: I loved doing that. I always was a kid who

421
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,479
Speaker 1: loved to learn, and it doesn't surprise me looking back now,

422
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: because that's all I do. That's my job is to learn.

423
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: And even when I was a kid, you know, I

424
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: always liked school and I always loved learning. I found

425
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: it very exciting.

426
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is very familiar. Yes, Sam, I was curious.

427
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 2: I always asked questions. I wanted to know about people

428
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 2: in places and things. I've got a stack of journals

429
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 2: and diaries from when I was a kid, a stack

430
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: of you know, five page novels. Yeah, I mean it's

431
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: it's a profile. I guess you. You have a stint

432
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: writing in Boston as a young adult, which is my hometown.

433
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: It's such a small, parochial town compared to New York.

434
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 2: Where you go where you go next? But how did

435
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: you find Boston?

436
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: Did you enjoy it?

437
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: I enjoyed it. I felt the smallness early on, which

438
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: surprised me because obviously Boston is a big city. But

439
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: I expected it to feel much more cosmopolitan than it did.

440
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: You know, Instead, I was surprised to find it had

441
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: a very small town kind of sense of itself. But

442
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: it was new to me. I had never lived in

443
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: New England. All of the exposure to a new region

444
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: of the country was very people Yeah, and I had

445
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: a great time while I was there. When I first

446
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: got to Boston, I wrote for The Boston Phoenix, which

447
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: was a weekly, an alternative news weekly. It was a

448
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: wonderful place to work. Then I began writing for the

449
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: Boston Globe Sunday magazine. Back then, Sunday magazines had big budgets,

450
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: beautiful photography. They were an important year place to write,

451
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: so it was fantastic. Yeah, I bet I really had

452
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: a great four years. At the end of those four years,

453
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: I really wanted to go to New York.

454
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

455
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: I felt its breath on my nest and I thought,

456
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: I want to go there. I want to really stake

457
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: my claim in the world of magazines. And that just

458
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: wasn't too It wasn't the same being in Boston.

459
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 2: I remember moving to the city after college. I got

460
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 2: my first writing jobs at I mean all over the place.

461
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 3: I wrote for The Bond Buyer, I wrote for.

462
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: The New York Times, I wrote for the Daily News,

463
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: and it's like the best journalism town.

464
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 3: But I feel like, tell me if you feel differently.

465
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 3: The era is gone a bit.

466
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: With all like the mega corporations and the hedge funds

467
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 2: owning these media outlets. I worked for several of them

468
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: owned by giant conglomerates or or whatever. It just feels

469
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: different today. It's less gritty. I work for a newspaper

470
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: that doesn't even have a newsroom anymore. Of the New

471
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: York Daily News, I don't know. It feels like that

472
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: era of journalism that you for sure came up in,

473
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 2: and that I came up in sort of at the

474
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: tail end, is just gone.

475
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 3: How do you feel.

476
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: I hate to say it, but I think it's true.

477
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: I will not say that people don't read or people

478
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: don't no, no to consume stories. But that era, when

479
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: you know, New York had a million newspapers, the magazines

480
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: were thriving. People felt like they just magazines were going

481
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: to make money to the end of history, you know they.

482
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: I remember going in airports and picking out five or

483
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: six magazines and they were all just giant, thick publications. Yes,

484
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: that that's gone.

485
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: Where like a Maureen Dowd and Jimmy Breslin were telling

486
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 2: a New York story for all kinds of people. It

487
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: wasn't just an elite intelligentsia, but like there was a

488
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: writer for everything in everyone and a place to go

489
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 2: to read anything.

490
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 3: Yea, yeah, it doesn't feel like anymore.

491
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, we will reinvent the way we consume.

492
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 3: Like long form.

493
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but at the moment, and you can't deny it.

494
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: When I was writing my book, I was shocked by

495
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: how many places I mentioned that I've gone out of business, gone, yeah,

496
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: And I had never quite taken stock of the fact

497
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,719
Speaker 1: that my career path It's like I lit it on

498
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: fire behind me, right, you know, almost every kind of

499
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: prominent feature of my coming up in the world journalistically

500
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: is gone. And it's still possible to develop a career

501
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: as a writer. I refuse to believe it's not. But

502
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: the path I took is gone.

503
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 3: That path has gone. You couldnt And I'm asked all

504
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 3: the time.

505
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: I'm sure you are too about young kids, you know,

506
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: from young kids coming into journalism, like how'd you get here?

507
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I'll tell you, I'll tell you exactly

508
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 2: how I got here. But you can't do it that way.

509
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: It doesn't exist anymore.

510
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 3: You can take some lessons from this, but like my path,

511
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 3: it's gone. Yeah, gone.

512
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I feel like I want to say to

513
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,959
Speaker 1: them that doesn't mean there's not another path. I'm just

514
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: not aware of it because this is something that's developed

515
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: over the last ten years. You know, the alternative newsweeklies

516
00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: where I started all went away in the last ten years. Yeah,

517
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: Sunday magazines from newspapers that were a great place to

518
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: develop long form narrative nonfiction all gone. You know. All

519
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: of the tons of women's magazines that I wrote for

520
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: that really fostered a lot of great writing, many of

521
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: those are gone. So you see that this path as

522
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: I formed, it doesn't You can't duplicate it anymore. It's

523
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: just it's just not possible.

524
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: How does the idea for the orchid Thief originate?

525
00:34:54,400 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: This was a complete accident, love it, Yes, justendipity. I

526
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: was flying home from I had gone to Mexico on

527
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 1: vacation and we were connecting in Miami. Got on the

528
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: flight and I finished the book that I was reading,

529
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: and I was very annoyed because I didn't have anything

530
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: else with me to read. So I looked in the

531
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: seat pocket in front of me, thinking, I don't know,

532
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 1: maybe maybe someone left something behind, And as it turned out,

533
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: someone had left a copy of the Day before Miami Herald.

534
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: I thought, well, not the prime thing that I feel

535
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: like reading, but it'll keep me occupied. So I flipped through,

536
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: and I find with local papers that I love. Going

537
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: to the back of the front section and reading the

538
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 1: local news, I find it much more interesting. My eye

539
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: fell on a headline that said local nurseryman seminole crew

540
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: arrested with rare orchids in swamp.

541
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

542
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: I could not figure out what this story was about.

543
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: So I read it, and I still couldn't figure out

544
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: what it was about. But when the plane landed, I

545
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: went into the office at the New Yorker and I said,

546
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: you know this is I cannot figure out what this

547
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: story is about, but I think it's interesting. To my

548
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 1: great good fortune, my editor said, go back to Florida

549
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 1: and go to the hearing in the case and see

550
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: what you can figure out. So I turned around and

551
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: flew back to Miami, went to the hearing, and was

552
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: immediately caught up in this crazy, immersive world of orchid

553
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: collectors and orchid fanatics, and I fell ahead over heels

554
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: into it. First, I wrote a story for the New

555
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: Yorker feature, but when I was done with the feature.

556
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: I went to my book editor and I said, you know,

557
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: I know it sounds unlikely, but I think there's a

558
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: book here. It's a weird world, it's a very crazy,

559
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: eccentric world filled with characters, and I think there's a

560
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: book in here. And to my great fortune, my book

561
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: editor said, well, if you really believe there's a book,

562
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: then go for it.

563
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: And it's a huge success. And then how does the

564
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 2: movie adaptation come? It's such a great movie if you

565
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 2: haven't seen it. Adaptation is such a weird, brilliant, beautiful

566
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: way to present your story. But inside of it, you

567
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 2: are like a fictionalized version of yourself. You become part

568
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 2: of the story by Charlie cough me.

569
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 3: It's so surreal. Explain how that, how it.

570
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 2: Came to you, and then how all of that kind

571
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 2: of made you feel internally sure.

572
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: After the story came out in the New Yorker, I was,

573
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: to my great surprise, I had a lot of producers

574
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: approach me saying they wanted to option the story, and

575
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: I was completely flabbergasted. I just thought, I don't see

576
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: the movie in here, but nobody's going to turn down,

577
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: And I like, why not? Right. So I said, the

578
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: one condition is you can't make the movie until I

579
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: finished the book, because I don't want the movie to

580
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 1: come out before the book comes out. Sure, So they said, fine,

581
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: not a problem. In the meantime, I worked on the book,

582
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: finished the book, and I honestly thought I gave the

583
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: producers the book and I thought they're never weren't going

584
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 1: to continue with this project because the book there was

585
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 1: no great drama. There wasn't a car crash or a murder,

586
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: any of the things you would typically expect in a

587
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: Hollywood property. It was a very meditative, sort of poetic

588
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: exploration of this weird world of passion and obsession and

589
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 1: orchids and Florida and I lo and behold. They called

590
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,919
Speaker 1: me after a few months and said, well, we've got

591
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: the script. Okay, that's okay, but that surprises me. And

592
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: then they warned me that the script was a little

593
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:50,280
Speaker 1: different from the book, which is an understatement. I read

594
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: the script and I said, this is absolutely crazy. You

595
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: cannot do it. You can't make me a character. I

596
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: don't want to be a character in a movie. You

597
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: can't use my name, this is absolutely insane. Yeah, and

598
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: they kept saying but please, you know, because we're really

599
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: we're using all real names, which they did. Every character

600
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: was a real person and someone you know, the executive

601
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: who's developing the film, and you know, all of the

602
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: people involved.

603
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 3: The roast and Charlie.

604
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: So I first just said I don't you know, I

605
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,919
Speaker 1: don't think so I just can't do this. And then,

606
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: true to my nature, I woke up one day and thought, well, okay,

607
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 1: I think that what happened was the prospect of saying

608
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 1: no and never knowing what it would be like seemed

609
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: far worse to me than saying yes and taking the

610
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 1: chance that maybe I'd regret it, but maybe I wouldn't write.

611
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 3: And what do you think when you saw it?

612
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: The first time I saw it, I was in such

613
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: shock that I had no idea what the movie was about.

614
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: And when it ended, I said to my husband, was

615
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: it good? I have no idea. I couldn't like see

616
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 1: it because it was so disorienting to see Meryl Streep

617
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: on a screen playing you, playing me, and you know,

618
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: speaking words directly taken from my book. I mean it was,

619
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: you know, and seeing my book on screen. The whole

620
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: thing was so weird. Yes, But then the second time

621
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: I saw it, I thought, oh, now, okay, now I

622
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: get it. Now I get it, and now I love it.

623
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 3: It's so good.

624
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I've seen it many many times, and I'm

625
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: amazed how it continues each time I see it to

626
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: hold up to you know, it's such an amazing meditation

627
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: on creative Gifford and Hollywood process storytelling and the process

628
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: and that and commercial versus art for sure. Sure, I mean,

629
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that anyone has ever captured quite so

630
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: well that duality of you know, because the fact is

631
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: when I wrote The Orc and Thief, as I was

632
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: writing it, in the back of my mind, I'm feeling like,

633
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: oh my god, I don't know what if my publisher

634
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 1: is really disappointed because this isn't dramatic. It's not it's

635
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: not full of the kind of drama that maybe would

636
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: make a best seller, and Hollywood takes that to the

637
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: nth degree. Where, you know, in the world of books,

638
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to say this is a quiet book.

639
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 1: It's a it's a small story. It's not dramatic. In Hollywood,

640
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: it's like, uh, oh, we need this to be very dramatic.

641
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: We need there to be at least one Car Chase.

642
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: You know, yes, so the I think Charlie's emphasis on

643
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 1: that as in the heart of the story, it reflected

644
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: the challenge all of us have when we're trying to

645
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: produce a piece of work that is both going to

646
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: have an audience, but it is also true to what

647
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 1: we are trying to do as creative people. And there's

648
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: always that push and pull, And as I said, I

649
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 1: think in Hollywood it's very extreme. Sure, in the world

650
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 1: of books we get a little bit more leeway, yeah

651
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: to say this is a quiet story but.

652
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 2: With an audience, but it'll still have an audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

653
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,879
Speaker 2: You also published an article for Outside magazine called Life

654
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 2: Swell in nineteen ninety eight about young surfer girls in Maui,

655
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: which turns into the movie Blue Crush with Kate Bosworth.

656
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,439
Speaker 2: This is like, correct me if I'm wrong.

657
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 3: Like two years after crack Hour publishes his piece and

658
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 3: Outside right, that becomes into thin Air, which later becomes

659
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 3: moving to what expectations do you have for that story

660
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 3: when you wrote Life Swell?

661
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: I have never written a story with Hollywood in mind.

662
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 3: Yeah.

663
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never gone into a reporting project and thought, oh,

664
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 1: this would make a.

665
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 3: Great movie, because that's not what you do.

666
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm writing it as a piece of narrative nonfiction,

667
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying it never like I'm so innocent

668
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: I have. Yeah, I'm not trying to exaggerate that. But

669
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 1: I have never thought, Okay, I'm gonna I'm going to

670
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: write this with Hollywood in mind. And I think the

671
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: best reminder to that is that there are things of

672
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: mine that I thought were absolutely obvious Hollywood properties yeah,

673
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 1: that didn't get option, and things of mine that I

674
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: didn't think were in any way suitable for Hollywood that

675
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 1: did get option. With Blue Crush, I rather life swell.

676
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: I didn't even think about it. In fact, that story

677
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 1: came very close to not happening. I have gone to

678
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: report on I had been told there were girls in

679
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: Hannah in Maui that were really into surfing, that were

680
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: interested in becoming professionals. And back then women weren't yet

681
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: surfing as much as they are now. It was very unusual.

682
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: So I went. I had a list of names that

683
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: I had gotten, my editor had gotten, and I went

684
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 1: to Maui and I called the girls, and each one

685
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: of them said, oh, I'm not into surfing anymore. And

686
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: I thought, oh, well, I've just flown to Hawaii. Yeah,

687
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: and this story as a complete disaster. I called my

688
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: editor and I was very embarrassed and I said, I'm

689
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 1: sorry I didn't call in advance. I came out here

690
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: and just figured it would be like a ready made

691
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: She said, well, you're already there. Just enjoy a day,

692
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 1: go to the beach, and then you can come home. Well,

693
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: there was one girl I hadn't called, and that was

694
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: because she was a body surfer, not a surfer, but

695
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 1: she was on that list, and out of curiosity, I thought, well, look,

696
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: I have a day here to kill. I'm just going

697
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: to call her. Why not. She was this very savvy,

698
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: very cool girl, and she said, who did you call?

699
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: And I told her the name. She said, oh, those

700
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 1: girls aren't the real surfers. I will introduce you to

701
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: the real surfers.

702
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 3: Like this underground kind of yes, yeah, she.

703
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: Said, I've got all the girls for you. You just were

704
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: going in the wrong direction. And she introduced me to

705
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: this group of young women who were really avid surfers.

706
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: They were competing, they were, you know, really into it,

707
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: and you know what had been a very near miss

708
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 1: where I was humiliated, like, oh my god, I've just

709
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: spent the magazine's money to fly to Hawaii and I

710
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: have nothing to show for it. Instead, I landed in

711
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: a far better situation with these girls who were really

712
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 1: avid surfers. But even then I didn't think at all

713
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 1: about it as a Hollywood story, And when I got

714
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: the call that there was real interest in optioning it,

715
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: I was thrilled and thought, you know, I can see

716
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: how this could be a movie because it's so visual,

717
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: it's you know, there were there were components that made

718
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 1: sense to me as a movie, and then of course

719
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: the screenwriter had to develop more.

720
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 3: A love interest narrative.

721
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 1: And a love interest the whole thing. Yeah, but the set,

722
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: the sort of little subculture that I had captured was

723
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: very new to Hollywood, and people loved it. And it's

724
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: really interesting that movie became a real bit of a

725
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 1: standard bearer for a lot of young women, whether they

726
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 1: surfed or not. It was sort of an early girl

727
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: power totally movie. And I know so many people who

728
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: have daughters who are now, say thirty or in their twenties,

729
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: where they say, oh, they watch that movie one hundred times.

730
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:41,760
Speaker 3: That's great.

731
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: So I'm thrilled about it. I mean, it's one of

732
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 1: those outcomes that feels really special and I'm.

733
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 3: Sure to me.

734
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 2: Okay, before we go to a lightning round, I just

735
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 2: want to ask. We talked about not being able to

736
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 2: provide for the people coming behind us a direct path,

737
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 2: but what tips would you give to young writers today

738
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 2: who are trying to break in or trying to make

739
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 2: it in this business.

740
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 1: I think one thing that's developed that is the place

741
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 1: to maybe get a toe hold is there there is

742
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: no publication that doesn't have a big website. So what

743
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 1: used to be Look at The New Yorker. The New

744
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 1: Yorker had a very you know, strictly limited print edition.

745
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: Yes that you really had to fight to get in

746
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: to that edition. Yeah, and it was this steep hill

747
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: to climb. But now there's this an enormous website. And

748
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that the quality is less. It just

749
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 1: means that there's so much more real estate. The New

750
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: York Times, every newspaper has and every magazine has a

751
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 1: very big website. So one place to begin, I think,

752
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 1: is to go not directly to the print edition of

753
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 1: these publications, but to get a toe hold in the website.

754
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 1: Whatever it is, whether it's doing listings, whatever job.

755
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 3: You can get blurbing yeah right, yeah.

756
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: And begin. You know, once you have a toe hold,

757
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to begin pitching stories. Yes, right,

758
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 1: and saying you know, I'm right here, and I have

759
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 1: this idea. And I believe that the route that a

760
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: lot of young writers take, which is to set up

761
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: a substep, set up you know, blog, I don't think

762
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 1: that that's a great way to go. I think you

763
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 1: want to work with an editor, you want to have

764
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: you don't want to have to worry. You know, if

765
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: you have a substack, you're worrying about subscriptions.

766
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 2: And legal and all the all the things everything.

767
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:32,359
Speaker 1: And you're not necessarily breaking into the readership that you want. So,

768
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 1: I mean, there's nothing wrong with starting a sub stack,

769
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: but I don't think if you're a young journalist that

770
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 1: that's the best way to go. I think you really

771
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 1: need to look for somewhere that you can work with

772
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: an editor and learn and learn and get edited, learn

773
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 1: what it feels like to get edited, and don't have

774
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: to worry about I'm getting subscribers. I've got to, you know,

775
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: promote myself, right, but work on your work. Yeah, I

776
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 1: feel like I want to develop more tips for young writers,

777
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 1: but right now I'm a little bit bereft. I don't

778
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 1: have a million suggestions because because I'm not so different. Yeah,

779
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:24,280
Speaker 1: it's so different.

780
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know what you mean. Okay, let's do a

781
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 2: lightning round. This has been such a wonderful conversation. I

782
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 2: could just talk to you all day.

783
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 3: But I do want to get to a lightning round,

784
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 3: so this will be fun and easy. Okay, Okay, good, Okay.

785
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 3: The most interesting person you've ever written.

786
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: About, I would say my profile of a ten year

787
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: old suburban kid, a suburban boy in New Jersey on

788
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 1: one level, the most ordinary, conventional, but to me it

789
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: opened up a world and it was absolutely fascinating. What

790
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: was that piece that ran an Esquire And it was

791
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: called The American man Age ten? And I guess I

792
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 1: have a soft spot for writing about people that might

793
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: appear very conventional, huh, but actually when you examine them,

794
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: their worlds are very rich and interesting. And in the

795
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: case of a ten year old boy, you know, I

796
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,439
Speaker 1: was a grown woman. I was like, this is very

797
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: exotic to me.

798
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 3: Right, I know nothing about this.

799
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, have you ever started going down a research rabbit

800
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 2: hole on something and decided for whatever reason, I just

801
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 2: can't tell the story, almost like what happened with Blue Crush,

802
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 2: where you just you're like, oh, I just can't tell

803
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 2: the story. But have you ever gone down and decided

804
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 2: you decided no, there's not enough here, or I don't

805
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 2: like where this is going, or I just.

806
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 3: Can't do it, and then you kind of abandon it. Yes,

807
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 3: I have not That must be frustrating.

808
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: Not as often as could happen, I'm happy to say,

809
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:17,879
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's very frustrating, although in a way I'm

810
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: really grateful for when it happens when you say, you

811
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: know what, I'm going to cut my losses, even if

812
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of homework. If I feel like

813
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: this just isn't going to work as a story, I

814
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: better get out before it's too late. So I think

815
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 1: that's actually a good instinct to have. My problem has

816
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: often been when I hit an obstacle, I need someone

817
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,879
Speaker 1: to encourage me to stick with it, because a lot

818
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: of times I immediately think, oh, that's it, this isn't

819
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: going to work ends. And you know, in the case

820
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 1: of the surf Roles, that's a perfect example where I

821
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: felt like I'm gonna I gotta get out of here.

822
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: I flew this, but I think you know, often an

823
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,760
Speaker 1: editor has a good sense of saying, I think you're

824
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: bailing out too quickly, hanging in a minute for one

825
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: more minute.

826
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I imagine when your instinct kicks in, Oh,

827
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 2: this just isn't going to work.

828
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 3: This isn't a good story. It makes you.

829
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: Feel like maybe you can trust your instincts when you

830
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 2: know it is a good story, right to have, Like

831
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 2: they're not all good. Maybe you're a little grateful that

832
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,879
Speaker 2: you still know what isn't going to work right.

833
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's a really important instinct and one

834
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 1: that you're very lucky to have, because if things feel

835
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 1: off early on, or for me, it's more if I

836
00:56:53,920 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 1: feel like there's just not enough there, uh huh, that

837
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 1: that's what will push me away. Sure, I think it's

838
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: just not interesting enough.

839
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 3: I can't make enough of this, Yeah, exactly.

840
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 2: In a winterur recently passed on the baton at Vogue,

841
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 2: was it time?

842
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 3: What do you think?

843
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 1: I think anyone who willingly steps away from power has

844
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: to be admired.

845
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 3: Because it doesn't happen anymore, so.

846
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 1: Nobody does it it's really amazing. I certainly had no

847
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: complaints about Vogue or her editing of it, but I

848
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 1: really respect her for saying I'm gonna step away while

849
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: it's in its fullest flower under my leadership, and also

850
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: just to like get away from the grind and the pressure.

851
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 1: You sort of think good for her, Yeah, But mostly

852
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: I admire anyone who, when they have as much power

853
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: as she had, to say I'm okay, I can step away. Yeah.

854
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: I think there's so much intoxication that comes with it

855
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: that you rarely see somebody who has the wisdom to

856
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: say I'm okay, I've done it.

857
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 3: I've made enough money, I've done enough. Yeah.

858
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're incredibly well traveled.

859
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 3: I know you like to write about travel.

860
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 2: What's the most remote or exotic place that you've traveled to?

861
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: Probably Bhutan. At the time I went, there was almost

862
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: no tourism there at all. They only allowed two thousand

863
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: tourists per year. They didn't have the internet, they didn't

864
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: have American movies. It was very very much self contained,

865
00:58:55,280 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: kind of enchanted kingdom. You didn't ever see any tourists.

866
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 1: I mean when I was there, I was with a

867
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 1: small group of people, and there were no other tourists

868
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 1: that you just didn't see tourists. There were also barely

869
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 1: hotels and barely facilities for tourism, so you were roughing

870
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 1: it for real. But it's one of the most Oh no,

871
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 1: it's the most beautiful place I've ever been. It's in

872
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: the Himalayas. It's stunningly beautiful, and it was very exotic,

873
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 1: a place that really was barely affected by Western or

874
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 1: American culture, so it really felt very precious and special,

875
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 1: and I just loved it.

876
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 3: Oh that's cool. I learned you're an architecture fiend. What

877
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 3: is your favorite Who's your.

878
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 2: Favorite architect or your favorite architectural style or movie?

879
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 1: Well, I love mid century Modern and we live in

880
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 1: a house by Rudolph Schindler, who's one of the premiere

881
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 1: practitioners of mid century modern architecture, so I'm biased. I

882
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 1: think that his work is really extraordinary, and our house

883
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: is just beautiful, and you know, he was a real visionary.

884
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 1: He really embodies the things I love about mid century architecture.

885
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 3: Yes, what's your favorite movie?

886
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: Oh, God, that's a hard one. I'm not sure I

887
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 1: have one. I think that would be too hard for me.

888
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 3: Let's do a letter box. Let's do for that.

889
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 1: Okay, Chinatown Atonement.

890
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 3: Oh love that movie? Yep, yeah, gorgeous.

891
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: Wizard of Oz. Okay, I feel that's a must classic.

892
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: And oh gosh, this is hard. Now that I'm down

893
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 1: to one, I'm not sure I can answer that. But

894
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: now I'm in a panic. Can I stay with those three?

895
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 3: You may? You may?

896
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 1: You know it's it's harder to pick four than it

897
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:22,439
Speaker 1: is probably to pick one.

898
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 3: I like your three. Your three are great, Okay, okay,

899
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 3: all right.

900
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 2: Finally, the last question we ask it at the end

901
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 2: of every podcast. It's very important to me spiritually culturally.

902
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 2: When is it iced coffee season?

903
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 1: You know, it's tough for me because I live in

904
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: Southern California, Okay, and it's always ice coffee season in

905
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 1: Southern California. And well, I would say it's a twelve month.

906
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,959
Speaker 3: It feels like you're lamenting this. That is the correct answer.

907
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 1: Okay, because I just want to say it to always

908
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 1: iced coffee season in southern California.

909
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 3: But for you, do you drink iced coffee year round?

910
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 1: Oh?

911
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, me too. I drink it every day.

912
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 2: It's my religion, you know, growing up in Boston, with

913
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 2: Dunkin Donuts.

914
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 3: It's very important to me. So you were it is correct,

915
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 3: you have the correct take.

916
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: Oh okay, good, because I mean I feel like, you know,

917
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 1: I'm not somebody who also believes you have to stop

918
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 1: wearing white after Labor Day.

919
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 2: Well I'm not either. That's ridiculous. But some people have

920
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 2: some very hard and fast rules about coffee and drinking

921
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 2: iced coffee and when and what temperature it has to be.

922
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 3: That's ridiculous. It's year round, it's.

923
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 1: Year round, and it's you know, the nectar of the gods.

924
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 6: Oh I knew it.

925
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 3: I knew it. I liked you. I knew it.

926
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 2: Susan Orlene, thank you so much for coming on Off

927
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 2: the cop This was a tremendous gift to me personally,

928
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 2: just to get your wisdom on writing. But I also

929
01:02:56,640 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 2: think just a great listen for folks who love storytelling

930
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 2: because you're just one of the all time best storytellers.

931
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

932
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, it was such a pleasure.

933
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 2: Coming up next week on Off the Cup, I talked

934
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 2: to Forward Party founder Andrew Yang.

935
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 6: The approval rating for Congress right now hovers around seventeen percent.

936
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 6: The reelection rate for incumbent members is ninety four percent. Yeah,

937
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 6: and so I joke that. Imagine a business where four

938
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 6: out of five customers were unhappy and then nothing changed.

939
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 3: Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as

940
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 3: part of the Reason Choice Network. If you want more,

941
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 3: check out the other.

942
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:44,800
Speaker 2: Reason Choice podcasts, Politics with Jamel Hill and Native Land Pod.

943
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 3: For Off the Cop, I'm your host, Si Cup. Editing

944
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 3: and sound design by Derek Clements. Our executive producers are

945
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 3: Me Si Cop, Lauren Hanson, and Lindsay Hoffman. Rate and

946
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 3: review wherever you get your podcasts, Follow or subscribe for

947
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 3: new episodes every Wednesday.