Speaker 1: So ready for another week of thinking out loud, this
Speaker 1: one we're so excited for you to hear. Today we're
Speaker 1: going to talk to one of my old friends, Billy Man.
Speaker 1: I've known him for years. He was a record executive
Speaker 1: who I knew since the nineties, and he's helped shape
Speaker 1: the careers of several huge names of music like Pink
Speaker 1: Backstreet Boys and Kelly Rowland and a lot more. Hear
Speaker 1: how he got his start busking in San Francisco, from
Speaker 1: nothing to everything, and find out what he's up to
Speaker 1: now with his podcast, which is great. It's called Yeah
Speaker 1: I fucked that up. Here we go. Billy Mann and
Speaker 1: I have known each other for how many years?
Speaker 2: Twenty years?
Speaker 1: Yeah, a long time. Billy's got a great history. This guy,
Speaker 1: great musician. God lived in his car in Los Angeles
Speaker 1: and London. You lived in your car for a while.
Speaker 1: But did you wanted if.
Speaker 2: I didn't go to London from Los Angeles?
Speaker 1: Well, I know, but a car. You found a different car.
Speaker 1: But you were living in your car, a struggling musician
Speaker 1: out there on streets playing for money. And it's just
Speaker 1: a great story from doing that to tell what you've known.
Speaker 2: I think it was I don't think much has changed,
Speaker 2: except I'm no longer living in a car. I mean,
Speaker 2: I was like writing songs and singing and trying to
Speaker 2: move my music from one place to the next. And
Speaker 2: I the best story I can tell about the music
Speaker 2: business has nothing to do with the music business. But
Speaker 2: during the period where I was, I wasn't homeless, so
Speaker 2: I was sort of CouchSurfing slash in my car. I
Speaker 2: was really broke and I had to earn enough money
Speaker 2: to pay for the room I was renting, and I
Speaker 2: went to Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco and I played
Speaker 2: songs and I made like sixteen bucks in one day,
Speaker 2: which is not a lot of money. And I thought,
Speaker 2: can I curse on this? Oh yeah, oh yeah, And
Speaker 2: I thought I'm totally fucked. And then the next day
Speaker 2: I was up very early and there was a couple
Speaker 2: walking down Fisherman's Wharf and they looked very like happy
Speaker 2: and in love and who's awake that early in the
Speaker 2: morning and on a weekend, but a newlywed couple, which
Speaker 2: they were. And I started playing right away because I
Speaker 2: needed to make money, and they were nice, and they
Speaker 2: had no place to go, and there were no people around,
Speaker 2: and then we started talking and they said, we just
Speaker 2: got married and we're here on our honeymoon. And I
Speaker 2: said to them, you know, I'm trying to make enough
Speaker 2: money to move my music forward. What if you tell
Speaker 2: me how you met and I'll write a song about
Speaker 2: it in five minutes or less for twenty bucks. And
Speaker 2: if you don't like it, no, not twenty bucks for
Speaker 2: five bucks. And if you don't like it, you don't
Speaker 2: have to tell me. I just like ruined the story,
Speaker 2: but I said, you don't have to pay me anything.
Speaker 2: So they told me how they met, and I wrote
Speaker 2: down all these words and it was like everything that
Speaker 2: could rhyme. It would be like, you know, plain, spain,
Speaker 2: rain or whatever, and I'd write these notes and then
Speaker 2: I like made it up real fast, and the guy
Speaker 2: gave me twenty bucks, and then there was another couple
Speaker 2: walking after them, and I was like, so, how'd you
Speaker 2: guys meet? And then I made like four hundred dollars
Speaker 2: over the next day and I kind of saved myself.
Speaker 2: And to me, that's kind of the story of being
Speaker 2: a working songwriter or an artist, which is you're trying
Speaker 2: to write songs that mean something to other people and
Speaker 2: hopefully you can feed yourself in the process. So I've
Speaker 2: been scaling ever since I was in San Francisco.
Speaker 1: I know, But what a great way to realize writing
Speaker 1: music has extreme value.
Speaker 2: Well, I also thought to myself, not only that is
Speaker 2: that it can have value, but I thought I'll figure
Speaker 2: it out, because up until that point, I was just
Speaker 2: hand to mouth and just worrying about just surviving. And
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, I thought, you know, this
Speaker 2: method that I'm using, I could probably do better.
Speaker 1: But since then, I mean, we must fast forward. Billy
Speaker 1: has had many, many different positions at many many different
Speaker 1: record labels, management companies, as his own management company, and
Speaker 1: also has written songs, which is more fun to talk
Speaker 1: about for many great artists, including Pink. You've worked with
Speaker 1: other artists like Backstreet Boy, Seleine Deon, Jessica Simpson. I mean,
Speaker 1: you've worked with everyone in the business, anybody these huge,
Speaker 1: high paying executive positions that are kind of boring to
Speaker 1: talk about, but exciting if you're in the music business.
Speaker 2: Well funny if you're in the music business, because when
Speaker 2: you're a songwriter and you're the working musician, and all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, you become the president of a big company.
Speaker 2: It's sort of like the dishwasher at the restaurant now
Speaker 2: owns the restaurant, and there's like a real that's not
Speaker 2: It wasn't an easy glide path into that role amongst
Speaker 2: the people working at the restaurant who see you one
Speaker 2: way and then suddenly have to experience you another. But
Speaker 2: it was a great experience. I love doing it knowing
Speaker 2: what I know of you.
Speaker 1: Writing songs for people is much more fun than being
Speaker 1: an executive at a at a company.
Speaker 2: I think they're both problem solving in a way.
Speaker 1: I mean writing a song problem solving.
Speaker 2: Well. I think for somebody who's creative, it's it's therapeutic, right,
Speaker 2: So sometimes it's problem solving and that you feel something
Speaker 2: and then you articulate it and you feel better. And also,
Speaker 2: if you're working with other artists, you're trying to help
Speaker 2: them articulate feelings that they feel, and in that respect
Speaker 2: it's problem solving or an attempt at building a bridge
Speaker 2: for them so that they can actualize what they're feeling
Speaker 2: and use it as part of their identity. But in
Speaker 2: a larger job, problem solving is you know, sometimes it's
Speaker 2: conflicts with managers and artists, and sometimes it's internal conflicts.
Speaker 2: I think the part that I didn't enjoy the most
Speaker 2: was that it kept me farther away from the creative process.
Speaker 2: And so after I got off, after I got offered
Speaker 2: to sit in this role, I tried very hard to
Speaker 2: believe that I would still be close to the music.
Speaker 2: And the part that was the toughest was that, you know,
Speaker 2: you wind up holding a desk more than you hold
Speaker 2: a guitar, and that was tough.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons we had to have you on
Speaker 1: the podcast building is because we want to talk about
Speaker 1: your podcast, which is called Yeah I fucked that up,
Speaker 1: and that's coming up in a minute. That's called a tease.
Speaker 1: But I want to get back to songwriting. Songwriting for
Speaker 1: you comes easy, easily, right, Yeah? Can anyone write a song?
Speaker 1: I mean, what does it take to write a song?
Speaker 2: I mean, well with shat GPT yes.
Speaker 1: Well no, okay, without that. If I wasn't down and
Speaker 1: just pen a song, is it easy? I mean, how
Speaker 1: does your mind work? I'm sure songwriters do it different ways.
Speaker 2: Everybody does it differently. I don't. I would like to
Speaker 2: say that it's the thing about music, the music and
Speaker 2: sports are the two things that are available to everybody.
Speaker 2: Even if you're not playing it, you're a part of it.
Speaker 2: And I think songwriting, I think what's hard isn't writing songs.
Speaker 2: I think what's hard is how do you say something
Speaker 2: in a way that has never been said the same
Speaker 2: way before? How do you how do you see a
Speaker 2: thought through? But I actually feel like I could sit
Speaker 2: down with you and we could write a song together
Speaker 2: and it could be great. And I think what's so
Speaker 2: exciting about the music business is the only thing that
Speaker 2: separates me from somebody who's really clever and has some
Speaker 2: talent and motivation and them being the next Grammy winning
Speaker 2: hit maker is three minutes of what they create. And
Speaker 2: in the world we're living in, there's so much access
Speaker 2: that it's it's it's in many respects because of the
Speaker 2: volume of artists, it's it's not as and in other
Speaker 2: ways it's actually more democratic and there's more opportunity for everybody.
Speaker 2: So now it's a volume game. So the answer is,
Speaker 2: I think anybody can write a song. The question is
Speaker 2: can they write a song that's going to hit people
Speaker 2: deep enough that they want to hear more of it
Speaker 2: and hear it over and over again.
Speaker 1: You don't know it fast is part of it. You
Speaker 1: know what fascinates me about songwriters. I could meet a
Speaker 1: songwriter not know what they've written, and to me they
Speaker 1: may come off across as come across as like a
Speaker 1: very shy, shallow, introvert, whatever. But you read their lyrics
Speaker 1: and then the most beautifully constructed lyrics and phrases and
Speaker 1: thoughts things that make you cry. You just like a
Speaker 1: work of art on the wall. You could actually listen
Speaker 1: to the lyrics of a song and just start to
Speaker 1: cry because it comes from this place that you just
Speaker 1: don't see on the outside of these human beings. From
Speaker 1: the inside is where you get it. It's a great
Speaker 1: lesson in understanding. Got to you can't judge a book
Speaker 1: by its cover, right, Like, there is one songwriter I love,
Speaker 1: Diane Warren. Now you know Diane, well, we all know
Speaker 1: Dian Warren. She lives on the West Coast, and she
Speaker 1: writes some of those incredibly thought out, beautifully constructed songs
Speaker 1: about love and breakup. But when you meet her' she
Speaker 1: curses like a sailor. I mean, she loves to assault
Speaker 1: people in a fun way. Her lyrics in her songs
Speaker 1: don't match the person you meet at the table, so
Speaker 1: I don't know which is which. Which of those people
Speaker 1: is Dian Warren the person who curses like a sailor
Speaker 1: or also can construct a beautiful love ballad that makes
Speaker 1: you cry.
Speaker 2: Well, but isn't it this is you're I mean, you're
Speaker 2: unusual because you're a very public persona, but you have,
Speaker 2: like I think, everybody has a three tiered life. They
Speaker 2: have their public life, their private life, and their secret life.
Speaker 2: And I think for creators, we behind the scenes type
Speaker 2: of creators, it's to peek our heads out into the
Speaker 2: public life with our creativity. It's like nice to be
Speaker 2: a songwriter because you're not out doing the promotion and
Speaker 2: you're not necessarily on the front lines of all the feedback.
Speaker 2: And I think, first, I know Diane a little bit,
Speaker 2: and she's brilliant. I mean, she's an absolute genius. But
Speaker 2: her disconnect I actually this is my analysis, So forgive
Speaker 2: me Diane for my analysis. But I actually think her
Speaker 2: secret life is what fuels all of her creativity. I
Speaker 2: think what makes her so special is the secret layer
Speaker 2: of her comes out in the songs she writes. And
Speaker 2: actually that private life, which is the few people that
Speaker 2: get to meet her as Diane Warren the songwriter is
Speaker 2: actually her public life. I think there's something magical about
Speaker 2: every songwriter or a musician that I meet, but I think
Speaker 2: with her in particular, I think the secret sauce for
Speaker 2: her is that secret place that she pulls it from.
Speaker 2: She's an unusual example. But is she Yeah, she is.
Speaker 2: She's very special. There's only I mean, I'm a huge fan,
Speaker 2: and every time we've hung out or spoken, she's just
Speaker 2: like she's as ambitious and excited and curious about the
Speaker 2: next song. And she's an absolute sales.
Speaker 1: Machine without doubt. Just you know Diane Warren. And I
Speaker 1: want you, by the way, to do a search on
Speaker 1: Diane Warren so you can you can see the list
Speaker 1: of hits. I mean, she is nothing but hits, millions
Speaker 1: of them.
Speaker 2: Don't want to miss a thing. Errol Smith, I'll never
Speaker 2: get over you getting over me.
Speaker 1: That's there's a ton of them. I'm just and Michael
Speaker 1: Bolton's and all sorts of things.
Speaker 2: She's she's goat.
Speaker 1: Status and you know what, she has a secret vault
Speaker 1: at home and maybe it's a computer where she has
Speaker 1: songs ready to go and she can actually she can
Speaker 1: actually auction them off and to the highest bidder, and
Speaker 1: she makes She just walked to the mailbox every day
Speaker 1: and the checks just come in and she does.
Speaker 2: But you know, the question that you always ask about,
Speaker 2: or rather the question that I tend to ask, is
Speaker 2: are people happy? You know? And I think, you know,
Speaker 2: when I look at any of the people that are
Speaker 2: successful at the level that Diana is successful, and I
Speaker 2: would I can't help but look at it and think.
Speaker 2: You can't see the kind of car you're driving necessarily
Speaker 2: while you're driving it. I mean, you can see maybe
Speaker 2: a little logo on the steering wheel. But I just
Speaker 2: think that what I've found amazing is working with the
Speaker 2: people that have that sense of self awareness and the
Speaker 2: success and it's not all about the music industry, but
Speaker 2: that music is somehow a vehicle for other parts of
Speaker 2: their lives that they want to develop, and I think
Speaker 2: that this is a hard business for them.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the podcast, because I find this fascinating
Speaker 1: because as creative as Billy Man has been in the
Speaker 1: music business, not only writing the music and performing it,
Speaker 1: but also managing others who do the music and all
Speaker 1: so figuring out how to distribute it for profitability for companies.
Speaker 1: He also has a great take on life. As you
Speaker 1: can hear already, you have a very unique way of
Speaker 1: phrasing and couching things to make it interesting. You have
Speaker 1: found people in your life in business who actually have
Speaker 1: great stories. The journey that they that they made to
Speaker 1: get from point A to where they are now has
Speaker 1: a couple of potholes on the road. Right. So the
Speaker 1: podcast is called Yeah, I fucked that up, So I
Speaker 1: know what it's about, but I want to hear in
Speaker 1: your words, what is this podcast about and what can
Speaker 1: we all learn from it?
Speaker 2: I mean, so I have four kids. One of my
Speaker 2: kids in particular, was having a very difficult time getting
Speaker 2: stuck on not getting good grade on something at school,
Speaker 2: and it was it sounds weird, but I think a
Speaker 2: lot of parents can relate to this. You know, if
Speaker 2: you have a kid who's an athlete, or kid who's
Speaker 2: really passionate about one one or another things that when
Speaker 2: it doesn't go their way, it can be hard. And
Speaker 2: I was trying to explain that everybody fails if you're
Speaker 2: successful at anything, and his response was that's not true.
Speaker 2: You don't fail. And then I sort of I looked
Speaker 2: at Jen and my wife and it was like a
Speaker 2: toilet paper roll, a list of all the things that
Speaker 2: I have fucked up. But I really tried to explain
Speaker 2: to him that it's a fact. Like Abraham Lincoln lost
Speaker 2: I think almost every election before he won being president,
Speaker 2: and then he changed the world, not enough, but certainly
Speaker 2: more than anybody else. And I think that anybody that
Speaker 2: I know that's successful, they actually they get better from
Speaker 2: the moments that they fall down. But people don't talk
Speaker 2: about that. Elvis, they don't talk. Nobody goes to a
Speaker 2: cocktail party and they're like, man, I really fucked this
Speaker 2: up today. It's just not how we're wired. Nobody goes
Speaker 2: on social media and posts look at me, I look
Speaker 2: like shit. I had a terrible day. I tripped, I
Speaker 2: made a huge mistake at work. It's just not we
Speaker 2: And we've come to this place where we have this
Speaker 2: curated highlight real life that everybody's living. And at the
Speaker 2: same time there's real problems, especially with younger people, and
Speaker 2: anxiety and being judged and judging other people. So the
Speaker 2: idea of this podcast is, really, can I get successful
Speaker 2: people to volunteer? They're not selling a record or a book,
Speaker 2: or just to actually talk about times that they fucked
Speaker 2: up and what they got out of it and how
Speaker 2: it either made them better or more self aware. And
Speaker 2: each conversation has been different, but I have learned so much.
Speaker 2: Most of all, I've learned that there is a thread,
Speaker 2: a through line among all of the guests that I've
Speaker 2: spoken to. And I never I didn't think that I
Speaker 2: would ever do a podcast. I think podcast is like
Speaker 2: everybody's doing a podcast. But it has been surprisingly enriching
Speaker 2: for me and it's going well, which is a shock
Speaker 2: to me also. But I think it's another being at
Speaker 2: the fisherman's wharf, like let me try a thing and
Speaker 2: see if it's worth anything. But it's been worth the
Speaker 2: most for me to see guess real talk about what
Speaker 2: they've been through and in a way that they haven't done.
Speaker 2: It's funny you mentioned Michael Bolton in the context of
Speaker 2: Diane Warren and I interviewed him. It was really intense.
Speaker 2: People don't know Michael Bolton. You think of Michael Bolton,
Speaker 2: I mean, he's this iconic figure and there's an era
Speaker 2: of his life where he was literally in the bleeding
Speaker 2: edge of the zeitgeist and then he was like fell
Speaker 2: out of it and he went from being the sexiest
Speaker 2: man a live magazine cover guy to like kind of
Speaker 2: what happened to him, or people would say comments about
Speaker 2: his hair, But Michael was raising three daughters on food
Speaker 2: stamps into his thirties before he had his first hit.
Speaker 2: But him talking of about that and how he looks
Speaker 2: at his success and how he is I don't say failed,
Speaker 2: but I think what he wishes that he did better
Speaker 2: has nothing to do with money or fame or music
Speaker 2: or celebrity. And I found this with each of the
Speaker 2: people that I've spoken to. It's that it's like it's
Speaker 2: that it's that personal ability to self reflect that can
Speaker 2: get lost in the ambition that you have in a career,
Speaker 2: whether it's in music or film or acting.
Speaker 1: What we learn here and we hear it from everyone,
Speaker 1: every everyone in industry that's succeeding anyway, will tell you
Speaker 1: if you're not willing to take a chance and fail,
Speaker 1: you're never going to succeed. Succeed. The problem is is
Speaker 1: in failure, it's embarrassing, it's heartbreaking, so it makes you
Speaker 1: tend to not want to try. Therefore you just sort
Speaker 1: of swim with the other salmon. Right, but when you really,
Speaker 1: when you're willing to get out there and take a chance,
Speaker 1: even if you're taking a chance with your entire fortune
Speaker 1: or lack of fortune and the few daughters you have
Speaker 1: in the bank. If you don't take those chances, you'll
Speaker 1: never move forward. You have to fail in order to succeed, right,
Speaker 1: And I agree.
Speaker 2: I guess the question is, is anybody talking about.
Speaker 1: That, Well, you are in this podcast, that's why you're here. Hello.
Speaker 2: No, But I guess I think more. We have to
Speaker 2: be a lot more forgiving of other people, right, and
Speaker 2: we idolize people. And the assumption is because of the
Speaker 2: social media life for living, is that they don't that
Speaker 2: they don't have their setbacks, or if they exist, they're staged.
Speaker 2: It's like, one of the reasons I love Pink, even
Speaker 2: though Alicia is like my friend for a long time,
Speaker 2: is that off the stage, she is exactly who she is,
Speaker 2: and she is transparent to a fault. Sometimes I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I don't know if you need to go that far,
Speaker 2: but she feels compelled. And then there are other artists
Speaker 2: where they're living a whole life that everybody seems to
Speaker 2: see and behind the scenes is it's completely different, right.
Speaker 2: I don't know how people get past that.
Speaker 1: Well, your question a second ago, Bildy was well, how
Speaker 1: do we get people to understand, truly understand the concept
Speaker 1: of you have to fail before you succeed. Maybe one
Speaker 1: of the problems is all the people saying you have
Speaker 1: to fail before you succeed are successful. You're rare to
Speaker 1: hear someone who's on the down and out it's going
Speaker 1: you know, you gotta fuck up before you succeed, because
Speaker 1: they're still fucking up. They're not succeeding yet, right.
Speaker 2: But some of people who are successful in a higher
Speaker 2: altitude with hopefully they're like a little beacon in the
Speaker 2: you know, in the clouds to say, well again, to
Speaker 2: your point, I don't think they broadcast I did this wrong.
Speaker 2: I this business failed. No one cared about my song.
Speaker 2: I thought this was a hit. It was barely a
Speaker 2: B side. That's like, it's not out there. But I
Speaker 2: do think that at least, let me put you this way.
Speaker 2: Every time I spoke to somebody and you, this is
Speaker 2: your profession, not mine. But when we got real into it,
Speaker 2: when it was over, they all thanked me. This felt
Speaker 2: really good, really and it's.
Speaker 1: Like because these things were all facts that they had already.
Speaker 2: It's like you talking to someone about really deep stuff
Speaker 2: that you don't think that they're going to go there.
Speaker 1: But they had to talk about it to get it out.
Speaker 2: But or you know, when I interviewed Kelly Rowland, she
Speaker 2: was like, no one has ever even asked me this question.
Speaker 2: And we got into the fact that she grew up
Speaker 2: and her mom was a nanny, and she was not
Speaker 2: just living with Beyonce in her family, but she was
Speaker 2: with her mom who was a caregiver for a family,
Speaker 2: and how she felt like her mom treated those kids
Speaker 2: nicer than she treated her, or she was around people
Speaker 2: who were affluent enough, and that she thought to herself,
Speaker 2: one day, I want to have this life right, and
Speaker 2: then all of the challenges that she's facing her career,
Speaker 2: I just didn't think I By the way, every conversation,
Speaker 2: I'm sure the same is with you in interviews, it's
Speaker 2: like you kind of go in you don't really know
Speaker 2: what you're going to get until you get there. And
Speaker 2: in this case, it's like it's very like, okay, everybody
Speaker 2: take off their clothes and let's be open. And it
Speaker 2: was I learned so much doing it. What's interesting about
Speaker 2: it is the reason I like talking to celebrities about
Speaker 2: it is because celebrities are we hold them up really high,
Speaker 2: and when they're there, they don't want to lose that
Speaker 2: because if I talk about how I fuck things up,
Speaker 2: then I'll be judged. I could lose that, So I
Speaker 2: don't want to talk about that. I'm just going to
Speaker 2: post all my super awesome parties that I'm going to
Speaker 2: and everything's cool. But I think ironically, the figures, the
Speaker 2: public figures that last the longest are the ones that
Speaker 2: address their moments of self doubt. That they're the most
Speaker 2: transparent and not in a script. And that was the
Speaker 2: other part. It is, like I said to when I
Speaker 2: talked to Michael Bolton, just because I know him, I'm like,
Speaker 2: don't give me any fucking stock answers, like we're going
Speaker 2: to move past that. And if you go down that
Speaker 2: path and I know that story, you're going to pull
Speaker 2: out about whatever that is. I want to move past it.
Speaker 2: And we got right into it. I think my goal
Speaker 2: is that for my son who was getting stuck, or
Speaker 2: for other people that feel like they're afraid to take risks.
Speaker 2: It's if you don't do it one. You know, it's
Speaker 2: like you're not going to score a goal if you
Speaker 2: don't take a shot. But the other piece is most
Speaker 2: of the people I've spoken to, in fact, all of them,
Speaker 2: find that the places where they have fucked up, they've
Speaker 2: made mistakes is actually the fertile ground for them to
Speaker 2: be greater. And they have discovered something else that has
Speaker 2: went unpacked has given them extra power and whatever area
Speaker 2: that they wind up succeeding in. And that's I don't
Speaker 2: know if that will come across in every podcast. I
Speaker 2: think every I think they're all entertaining, but I think
Speaker 2: when it does come across, it's it's super it's super emotional.
Speaker 2: And next week and I don't know when this will air,
Speaker 2: but I did one with Shelley Wright. Do you know
Speaker 2: Shelley Wright. Shelley Wright is a country singer songwriter who
Speaker 2: grew up in Kansas, Kansas farm country.
Speaker 1: We talked about her go Ahead and she.
Speaker 2: Was dating Brad Paisley and they were like a country couple,
Speaker 2: and she had the number one song and this is
Speaker 2: in the late nineties. It's single white female, super talented,
Speaker 2: beautiful people, magazines, Most Beautiful People, and she won the
Speaker 2: ACM Award for Best Female Solo Artist, and she stood
Speaker 2: up there and the whole time while she's with Brad Paisley,
Speaker 2: and she's this big you know, America sweetheart, she's a
Speaker 2: lesbian living in the closet and she's living like a
Speaker 2: complete double life and her fuck up, which and it's
Speaker 2: this is that she didn't get up there when she
Speaker 2: won that award and said I'm gay and this is
Speaker 2: who I am. And I think the dual life that
Speaker 2: she was living, which she no longer lives obviously, really
Speaker 2: put her own life in jeopardy and that she allowed
Speaker 2: it to go as dark and as far as she did,
Speaker 2: and is her what she feels as her fuck up
Speaker 2: and her going through that story was gut wrenching to
Speaker 2: listen to.
Speaker 1: And you know, you said a second ago something about
Speaker 1: how we need to give ourselves more space to mess up.
Speaker 1: How do you do that other than not being afraid
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable? And also you were talking about people
Speaker 1: you know who are living this genuine life. I think
Speaker 1: Pink is a great example on and off stage. I
Speaker 1: think most how do we give ourselves room to fuck up?
Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, and I don't think it's
Speaker 2: exclusive to celebrities. I mean there's somebody at work that
Speaker 2: they come to work and they present a certain way,
Speaker 2: and when they go home it's it's another way. It's not.
Speaker 2: I think it's less the judgment. I think it's more
Speaker 2: that you know, our uber results driven mentality and everything
Speaker 2: is you know, about where people feel that they are
Speaker 2: on the sort of successful scale, and we're of course
Speaker 2: we're living in the media center. But I think in general,
Speaker 2: it's like I think, I think that the more successful people,
Speaker 2: and it doesn't just mean money or celebrity, I think
Speaker 2: more the more people who are comfortable in themselves kind
Speaker 2: of success gives space to the people around them to
Speaker 2: fuck up and not judge them and say, you know what,
Speaker 2: that sucks, I'm so sorry that happened, but you know,
Speaker 2: who knows where it's going to lead you. I just
Speaker 2: think we've lost that that's a very American thing. That's
Speaker 2: a very American entrepreneurial spirit. Like we start from nothing,
Speaker 2: and we we were gritty, and we have pride in
Speaker 2: what we do, and we care about community, and I
Speaker 2: think all of this is like in this this is
Speaker 2: the right way, and this is the wrong way, and
Speaker 2: if you don't do it one way, you fail or
Speaker 2: you're looked at as a loser by the other. I
Speaker 2: just this is I think the idea of making space
Speaker 2: for failure is uh. It starts with individuals, but I
Speaker 2: think it's also families, judgments and families. How many parents say,
Speaker 2: I don't like the person you're dating, I don't whatever.
Speaker 2: It's like, we're just not good at this.
Speaker 1: We're not good at any of many things.
Speaker 2: No, but I think I think I think inside we
Speaker 2: really are. But I just think in the quest for
Speaker 2: the perfect everything, which is the life we're living in
Speaker 2: with you know, especially in social media, it's kind of honestly,
Speaker 2: someone is gonna start a social media page, some celebrity
Speaker 2: and they're just gonna it's gonna be nothing but fuck ups.
Speaker 2: By the way, James Blunt on Twitter, I don't know
Speaker 2: if you follow this, Okay, a genius, like the most
Speaker 2: self deprecating, like he will take hate comments and he
Speaker 2: will turn them around into the greatest one liners. And
Speaker 2: it's they'll say, like, I mean, we could look it up,
Speaker 2: but like James Blunt sucks and he would write back
Speaker 2: a comment, you know, straws whatever, lollipops whatever, and with
Speaker 2: a smiley face, and he he wears it and it
Speaker 2: makes him powerful. To me as someone who like observes
Speaker 2: that that embrace of negative feedback, and I think that's
Speaker 2: I think we're we're struggling. I think people are struggling
Speaker 2: with it and the and that I you know, I
Speaker 2: have four kids and my teenage daughter, like I worry
Speaker 2: about like all of her friends and everybody, the compulsion
Speaker 2: to post a certain way and.
Speaker 1: Your social media has kind of fucked us up a
Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah, maybe we could all agree we're fucked
Speaker 1: up because of social media. I you know, Billy, I
Speaker 1: want to go back to another thing. I keep going
Speaker 1: back to things you say, because you've said some things
Speaker 1: that really are igniting thoughts in my head rather than entertainment, business,
Speaker 1: careers or lives whatever. Let's talk about if you're a nurse,
Speaker 1: let's talk about, if you're an uber driver, let's talk
Speaker 1: about if you're a police officer. Let's talk about if
Speaker 1: you're you're out there doing something other than entertainment. What
Speaker 1: kind of fuck ups, what kind of fuck ups? Can
Speaker 1: you start to identify in your life that maybe we're
Speaker 1: great for you, that don't be afraid. And you're talking
Speaker 1: about footing a report out, going out and doing a
Speaker 1: presentation in your in your insurance office, whatever, Like, how
Speaker 1: can we apply this to anyone in every one who's
Speaker 1: not an entertainment business like every everyday people.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think what I look at, and I
Speaker 2: don't mean this in necessarily a religious context, but I
Speaker 2: do believe that we live in a world where sometimes
Speaker 2: there are like coincidences that are just unbelievably strange. You
Speaker 2: could be on the other side of a city or
Speaker 2: the country and meet someone who happens to be friends
Speaker 2: with a random person. You know. I think that there
Speaker 2: is a there is a supernatural element to life that
Speaker 2: we're living. You know, you're thinking of someone in their
Speaker 2: favorite song comes on the radio at the exact time
Speaker 2: you think of them. Sometimes the car accident you get
Speaker 2: into where you made a wrong turn and fucked up
Speaker 2: is actually the car accident that stopped you from going
Speaker 2: to wherever you were going to go all the time
Speaker 2: that could have been much worse for you. And that
Speaker 2: or the car accident that you were in that where
Speaker 2: you fucked up a turn and you were standing in
Speaker 2: the coffee shop waiting for someone to come pick you up,
Speaker 2: you meet the love of your life who's in the
Speaker 2: coffee shop. I think that we have to recognize that
Speaker 2: there is that sometimes failure is the forcing mechanism to clarity,
Speaker 2: and that clarity can either be events or that clarity
Speaker 2: can be internally. I've got to stop and rethink whatever
Speaker 2: the fuck I'm doing right now, because I know I
Speaker 2: want to be there. I was supposed to be there
Speaker 2: twenty minutes ago, but for whatever reason, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to be there, and I'm here now. Example example I
Speaker 2: mean for me. I think one example is I was
Speaker 2: going to a gig. This is when I was touring,
Speaker 2: and it was a bunch of guys and I musicians
Speaker 2: in living in a van and the van was really tall,
Speaker 2: so it was like the van size and then there
Speaker 2: was like tall van size and I was driving the
Speaker 2: van was when you're an artist and you don't have
Speaker 2: a big budget, like everybody drives. And we were I
Speaker 2: want to say, in Iowa or something, and we were
Speaker 2: driving and I went whatever motel we were saying in
Speaker 2: and there was like the drive through. But I didn't
Speaker 2: see that the van or think that the van was
Speaker 2: taller than the top of the ceiling of that awning
Speaker 2: structure at the cell okay, and so I like, you
Speaker 2: heard the and then it was and it's like my band,
Speaker 2: So I'm totally embarrassed, and so I put in reverse.
Speaker 2: And it's not like I can afford to fix whatever
Speaker 2: it is. But we were stuck there for an extra
Speaker 2: two days and I missed a festival date. The festival
Speaker 2: date that we didn't go to, there was like a
Speaker 2: massive lightning storm tornado thing, and they wound up canceling
Speaker 2: it and all this terrible things happened to mean we
Speaker 2: were at this location. I mean, that's one example of
Speaker 2: you know, I fucked up because I drove this van
Speaker 2: into this structure. But on the other hand, if I
Speaker 2: hadn't done that, what would have happened to us if
Speaker 2: we were there during this like tornado storm that was
Speaker 2: happening at the festival. I guess you could say maybe nothing,
Speaker 2: but also maybe something.
Speaker 1: Josh Hadden is in charge of engineering here at iHeart
Speaker 1: in New York City. He set his alarm clock for
Speaker 1: six pm for wakeup, when he should have set it
Speaker 1: for six am because he was supposed to be at
Speaker 1: the World Trade Center that morning. On September eleventh, two
Speaker 1: thousand and one. Right, there's a fuck out, right, right,
Speaker 1: but look at the payoff?
Speaker 2: Right? But that's but isn't that? It? Though? Is that
Speaker 2: there are some of these This is the make space
Speaker 2: for I think when things happen to us, we're so
Speaker 2: in the immediate moment of oh my god, oh my god,
Speaker 2: oh my God, that we have to leave like a
Speaker 2: little bit of room if possible, to be able to think, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is I feel like Oprah or something. But what
Speaker 2: in this moment am I supposed to be hearing about
Speaker 2: where I am? And if I'm forced to yield and
Speaker 2: I have no control and I feel embarrassed in shame,
Speaker 2: can I get past that? And I think the problem
Speaker 2: is it's it's harder and harder for people to get
Speaker 2: past moments of embarrassment because everybody's on camera all the
Speaker 2: fucking time. So maybe we can normalize it a little
Speaker 2: when you have celebrities talk about their moments of self
Speaker 2: doubt and failure, and most of the time it's the
Speaker 2: listening to what they really want to say and really
Speaker 2: want to do, But the mistake lies in ignoring it.
Speaker 2: So like if nobody ever hears this podcast, and the
Speaker 2: only thing I get to say to them on your
Speaker 2: show is listen and trust what your gut is telling you,
Speaker 2: what your voice inside of you is telling you, so
Speaker 2: that if you do fuck up, you don't have regrets
Speaker 2: because you maybe change direction to please somebody else. And
Speaker 2: when you are successful, it'll feel more real to you
Speaker 2: because you will have not ignored whatever it was that
Speaker 2: compelled you to act doing whatever it is you are
Speaker 2: passionate about, including being a nurse and being an uber driver,
Speaker 2: or even if you're an uber driver because you want
Speaker 2: to make money and survive. You know, if you have
Speaker 2: a moment where that is on pause or something happens,
Speaker 2: then I just I think, look around. I don't think
Speaker 2: we just take I don't think we take time. I
Speaker 2: don't think we're very forgiving of ourselves.
Speaker 1: No, no, we treat ourselves like crap. Why. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know. That voice in the head is usually
Speaker 1: our worst enemy. Right. So here's my challenge for everyone
Speaker 1: listening to this, and I was included, make a mental
Speaker 1: list or write down, make a list on a piece
Speaker 1: of paper of all the fuck ups in your life,
Speaker 1: things that you could have done differently, but you didn't.
Speaker 1: You fucked up, but you learned from it right, and
Speaker 1: you grew from it, and you were resolute in never
Speaker 1: making that mistake ever again. And those are the things
Speaker 1: that catapult you into great days and success.
Speaker 2: I also think I'd add one piece to that, which
Speaker 2: is what good came from it?
Speaker 1: Exactly?
Speaker 2: Did something good come from it? Even if it's humility
Speaker 2: that you apply to yourself. Did something good happen? Did
Speaker 2: you meet a person that you never thought you'd meet.
Speaker 2: Did you learn something about yourself that went unpacked you
Speaker 2: realize helped you to be wherever it is you are.
Speaker 2: I you know, listen, this is being human means you
Speaker 2: fuck up. Being human, you're in a relationship with someone,
Speaker 2: you fuck up, You have friendships, your coworkers. I think
Speaker 2: the human fuck ups, the worst human fuck ups are
Speaker 2: the ones that go unforgiven, the ones that go without
Speaker 2: self reflection. And because we're in this ultra judgment world
Speaker 2: right now, I think it's just hard for people. So
Speaker 2: I know, for me, I walk away from these conversations
Speaker 2: feeling oddly enlightened and also more aware of my many faults,
Speaker 2: but also looking at those as has maybe those areas
Speaker 2: of development that there's actually real opportunity for me to
Speaker 2: excel there and I don't want to miss that. And
Speaker 2: I think we going back to you. I just think
Speaker 2: it's not that you belong playing sports. The question is
Speaker 2: where was that guy little Elvis in the moment and
Speaker 2: is he still here in some spaces in your life?
Speaker 2: And what does that look like and how does it
Speaker 2: impact how you do business or things that you choose
Speaker 2: to do. I mean, you are like Diane Warren, your
Speaker 2: private life and a secret life, not just the public life.
Speaker 2: I hope that social media colmes itself a little bit
Speaker 2: so that people feel better about posting photos that it's
Speaker 2: not the perfect angle or the perfect moment.
Speaker 1: Every day we should strive to post things that show
Speaker 1: us at our worst.
Speaker 2: By the way, I would make a bet or a
Speaker 2: challenge that if and I'm sure no one would do this,
Speaker 2: but I think if someone said for Z one hundred,
Speaker 2: for your show or for you, that you said I'm
Speaker 2: going to do a week of failure, it's gonna be
Speaker 2: failure week, and every week you post some like terrible
Speaker 2: photo that's a moment of vulnerability. I bet that you
Speaker 2: would get an enormous amount of engagement and likes and
Speaker 2: follows and comments, and I agree, and I think and
Speaker 2: I think that that is the part that makes I
Speaker 2: think that's the part where social media can do a
Speaker 2: lot of good.
Speaker 1: Very well said Billy. Thank you for coming in, Thank
Speaker 1: you for having me. The podcast is called Yeah, I
Speaker 1: Fucked that up?
Speaker 2: What you just like saying?
Speaker 1: I like saying it because the title itself is truly
Speaker 1: exactly what it is.
Speaker 2: Well, my daughter, my nine year old, is like, Dad,
Speaker 2: you're and like, as soon as we go into the podcast,
Speaker 2: I like feel a bit of embarrassment. But even there,
Speaker 2: I think, you know, people curve. I think fuck fuck
Speaker 2: is a great word. It really is so many uses,
Speaker 2: but I think people like saying it. And in the
Speaker 2: same way, I think when people finished having the conversation,
Speaker 2: they like the conversation. So hopefully people will listen to
Speaker 2: them and they'll feel a little bit more normal.
Speaker 1: Billy's story one of my favorite, about never giving up
Speaker 1: on what you truly believe in. From his humble beginnings
Speaker 1: wanting to play music, it's incredible to see his immense
Speaker 1: success in this industry that he just loves. And those
Speaker 1: are the stories we love to bring to you on
Speaker 1: Thinking Out Loud. If you're enjoying this podcast, why not
Speaker 1: leave us a review and give us five stars. We've
Speaker 1: got plenty more to share with you in the weeks
Speaker 1: to come, so make sure you're subscribed and you'll get
Speaker 1: a notification when a new episode drops. Follow me at
Speaker 1: Elvis Durant on social media until next time, Peace Out.
Speaker 1: Thinking Out Loud is hosted by me Elvis Duran. The
Speaker 1: podcast is produced and edited by Mike Coscarelli. Executive producers
Speaker 1: are Andrew Paclsi and Katrina Norvell. Thanks to David Katz,
Speaker 1: Michael kind Heart and Caitlin Madore. Thinking Out Loud as
Speaker 1: part of the Elvis Duran podcast Network on iHeartRadio for more,
Speaker 1: rate review and subscribe to our show and if you
Speaker 1: liked this episode, tell your friends. Until next time, I'm
Speaker 1: Elvis Duran.