1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Shame 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 1: is so powerful that the minute it has a little 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: bit of the creep factor, like you give it a 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: little bit of room to breathe, it's it rolls over 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: you again. And it's so funny because I live my 6 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: life today not being ashamed of my conduct, not being 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: ashamed of how I navigate this world. Yet it lives 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: in me. This is Jane Mints. Jane is an interventionist, 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: which means that she flies all over the world trying 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: to intervene when someone an alcoholic, an addict needs a 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: serious amount of help. When you want to bring the 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: big guns in the person who can handle all of it, 13 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: the blood, the gore, the vomit, the denial, the life 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: and death stakes of the addict at the end of 15 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: the line, that's Jane. Because Jane's been there herself, right 16 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: in the center of that shame, that addiction. It doesn't 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: own me anymore, but it is something that I battle 18 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: every single day and I just and I think that, um, 19 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: I feel better when I'm able to help somebody that 20 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: is really sort of unconsciously deciding if they want to 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: live or die. And there is that moment when I'm 22 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: able to connect to somebody for the moment they choose 23 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: to live, and that's the opening. So that's the power 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: of what wounded people can do together. I'm Danny Shapiro, 25 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: and this is Family Secrets, the secrets that are kept 26 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 27 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. This is a story about adoption, addiction, recovery, identity, nature, nurture, 28 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: and well just a little organized crime, but we'll get 29 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: to that. And like a soft thrumming heartbeat beneath all 30 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: of it, shame. I've been thinking a lot about shame 31 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: during this first season of Family Secrets, because so many 32 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: of these stories either originate in shame, or cause shame, 33 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: or both. In Jane's case, her story begins with being adopted. 34 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: She's the eldest of three adopted children, brought into a wonderful, loving, 35 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: privileged family. So everything's good, just as it ought to be. 36 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: I grew up and Shaker Heights, Ohio. My father was 37 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 1: a surgeon, my mother stay at home mother. I had 38 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: to adopted siblings and we lad really an idyllic life. Um, 39 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: the rhythm of life was terrific. I had all the 40 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: opportunity that was afforded me in terms of excellent education, 41 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: great camps, very feminist you know, grow girl environment, private 42 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: schools and that kind of thing, lots of travel. My 43 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: family was incredibly social. We had lots of extended family 44 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: and friends, and I was really supported and cherished and 45 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: celebrated as a kid. But I was very lucky because 46 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: my life could have been the polar opposite, and I 47 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: knew that my whole life. So when you say your 48 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: life could have been the polar opposite, it's because you 49 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: had the knowledge that you were adopted, and so the 50 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: sense of luck of the draw or like being adopted 51 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: into one particular family that was loving and privileged as 52 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: opposed to another. Correct it absolutely. And I didn't at 53 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: that time know anything about my birth history, but I 54 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: knew I was lucky. And I had a relationship with 55 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: my father, who's passed on about five years now. Um, 56 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: that was extraordinary. Jane's dad was a huge personality. She 57 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: describes him as the mayor of everything. He was Cleveland's 58 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: favorite eye doctor, and Jane would tag along on his 59 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: medical calls to the hospital, into the emergency room, even 60 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: the operating room. He brought home cow eyes, I'm sorry, 61 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: but you you and taught her how to operate on 62 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: them in the family's basement. Jane's mom was also a 63 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: lovely human being, though Jane felt less connected to her. 64 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: She was a beautiful entertainer, a great cook, a classic 65 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties stay at home mom. My mother today is 66 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: eighty six years old and reads three newspapers a day 67 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: and is glued to CNN and ms NBC and the two. 68 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: The thing that we have most in common today as politics, 69 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,799 Speaker 1: which is great. But we're very, very different people. And 70 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: while I love and appreciate my mother, I never developed, 71 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: you know, that rapport that I had with my dad. 72 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: It was just a very different relationship. And still, you know, 73 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: deeply loving and and all that good stuff. But we're 74 00:04:55,440 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: just cut from completely different class. So, in terms of 75 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: being adopted, were you told that you were adopted at 76 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: a particular age or was it part of the fabric 77 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,559 Speaker 1: of growing up for you always? How did your parents 78 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: handle it? I think from the time I could comprehend, 79 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: my mom and dad would read me a little book 80 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: called The Chosen One, and that was the message from 81 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: the time I was a small child, is that I 82 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: was chosen and you know, very special because of that, 83 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: and so they normed out adoption. The mistake of norming 84 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: it out was the misunderstanding that children are blank slates. 85 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: So it was kind of an interesting dynamic where I 86 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: always felt very you know, loving and accepted and come 87 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: from this amazingly cool family. It wasn't until much later 88 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: in my life that I sort of stood in my 89 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: own truth and said I deserve to know. I really 90 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: deserve it. The book Chain Remembers is actually titled The 91 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: Chosen Baby. Published in the cover features a whimsical drawing 92 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: of a little boy climbing out of his crib, and 93 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 1: the book is described as a universally popular children's story 94 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: about adoption. The opening goes like this. The first baby 95 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: was a little boy with blue eyes and curly blonde hair. 96 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: He laughed and played with a rattle. The man and 97 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: his wife watched the baby. Then they shook their heads 98 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: and said, this is a beautiful child, but we know 99 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: it is not our baby. And they were taken to 100 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: see the next and they're asleep. In the crib lay 101 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: a lovely, rosy, fat baby boy. He opened his big 102 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: brown eyes and smiled. The wife picked him up and 103 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: sat him on her lap. The baby gurgled, and the 104 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: man and his wife said, this is our chosen baby. 105 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: We won't have to look any further. We will have 106 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: everything ready for him by tomorrow and would like to 107 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: take him home. Then. I am sure the book was 108 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: well intentioned and its author well meaning, and the parents 109 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: who read it to their children were ahead of their time, 110 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: those who were trying to tell the truth to their 111 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: kids about their adoption. And yet, in Jane's words, the 112 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: whole idea was to norm it out, to instill strongly 113 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: the sense that being chosen was all that mattered. My 114 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: adoption was a private adoption. And what what I think 115 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: did go wrong over time is that while it appeared 116 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: to be transparent, you know, in terms of me knowing 117 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: I was adopted, my parents claimed they knew nothing about 118 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: my adopted family, which is not true. So it took 119 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: me getting my grandmother really drunk and imploring her to 120 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: show me my original birth certificate, which had been altered. 121 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: My grandmother, my mother's mother, was just this little pocket person, 122 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: but she was all ry. I mean, she was no 123 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: joke at all. And um, I think that when I 124 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: was born, my parents gave my grandfather and my grandmother 125 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: my original birth certificate, and somehow I had gotten wind 126 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: of that at around seven years old. So I went 127 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: over to my grandmother's house and she used to smoke 128 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: Lucky Strikes cigarettes and drink scotch. So we started drinking 129 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: scotch and smoking Lucky Strikes cigarettes together, and I just 130 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,679 Speaker 1: said to her, I have to know. And her whole 131 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: thing was, well, if your mother ever found out, I 132 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: would never be able to recover from that because they 133 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: were very, very bonded and had, you know, beautiful relationship. 134 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: But she sort of at that moment, there was this 135 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: crack and I was able to slip through and she 136 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: gave me my birth certificate, which then gave me the 137 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: actual doctor and the town that I was born. After 138 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: she finally finds her birth certificate. Jane hires a private detective. 139 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: Jane is twenty six years old. She's in retail computer sales. 140 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: Her career is on hire. She's a hard partying up 141 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: and comer. Within three days, she was able to find 142 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: everything out that I needed to know. And she called 143 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: me and she said, UM, you better sit down, and I, boy, 144 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: did I sit down, and she told me I found 145 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: her This is where she is um. She would like 146 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: to talk to you. She wanted me to tell you. 147 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: You know, she's been waiting for you your whole life. 148 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: And I said, okay, have her call. And of course, 149 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: at that time, I was drinking like a fish, and 150 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: I grabbed a Scotch bottle and I sat on the 151 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: edge of my bed and the phone rang, and she 152 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: said exactly those things to me. She said, I've been 153 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: waiting for you all my life. And and then we 154 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: agreed to meet. We're going to pause for a moment 155 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: before we get to the moment when Jane first eats 156 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: her birth mother. I want to know more about the 157 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: whole inside Jane, inside so many of us whose origins 158 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: have been kept from us. After all, she's had it 159 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: pretty good. What sends her to the private detective and 160 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: ultimately to her biological mother? I mean, what is that confusion? 161 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: What is that sense of emptiness all about? Well, it's 162 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: interesting when you live in such a beautiful bubble and 163 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: you have nothing but really good things happening to you 164 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: all the time. And I was successful, I was had 165 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: great friends, I had great family. My whole life, I 166 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: felt like there was a black hole in my soul 167 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: that was so deep and wide, and I felt like 168 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: I didn't deserve to feel that way, and that I 169 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: felt really ashamed of having these feelings and not being 170 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: able to really identify what that was about. And you know, 171 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: I think shame is is what I learned to feel 172 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: about myself my whole life, even though there was no 173 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,359 Speaker 1: evidence that I should be ashamed. But I felt ashamed 174 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: for wanting to know more about myself and sort of 175 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: being acculturated. I can't really describe it, but you never 176 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: you always feel on the outside of life, always, and 177 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: then there's no evidence for why you should feel that way, 178 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: so that there's an incongruence. Yeah, I can't tell you 179 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: how much I relate to that, Okay, Yeah, I know 180 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: that the feeling of I don't have a right to 181 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: this pain. I mean, you know, look at me, look 182 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: where I live, Look look at this privilege, and you 183 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: know this environment in which really nothing has gone wrong, 184 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: that's right, But the feeling of something being terribly wrong, right, 185 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: and that being an extremely confusing thing for a kid. 186 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: It it really is. And you know, you and I 187 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: were talking a little bit earlier that adoptive kids have 188 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: a very high rate of addiction. And process addictions, which 189 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: means being addicted to anything other than a substance. And 190 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: my family were big cocktailers, and I can remember it 191 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: nine years old, clearing the cocktail glasses and then taking 192 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: my first drink, and that feeling of being different or 193 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: separate or not a part of went away. So it's 194 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: a classic when substance meets solution. And that was the 195 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: story of my life. So rather than try to seek 196 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: an inward journey, until I learned to do that, everything 197 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: was external. Everything was an external fix. And that's even 198 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: more disregulating because there's no you know, you're it's not 199 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: an authentic journey at that point, right, And ye know 200 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: what's going through my head is what possible tools? Would 201 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: you have had to know that an inward journey was 202 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: possible exactly? And it wasn't until I landed in treatment 203 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: that that I started to connect with Native American spirituality 204 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: and ritual and all this kind of stuff and really 205 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: realized that there was a huge spiritual part of myself 206 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: that I never knew existed. I didn't know existed for 207 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: anybody else. Would you have though, like in middle school 208 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: in high school, would you have been able to identify this. 209 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: If somebody had asked you, are you good with what 210 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: you know about yourself? Or is that does it feel 211 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: like there's something more that that you're seeking that would 212 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: you have been able to articulate that I would have. 213 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: I would have, but I was never asked, and I 214 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: didn't look to somebody to, you know, ask me that. Well, 215 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: that goes back to the narrative of I was chosen. 216 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: I've been so blessed, right, I'm so lucky. Yeah, I 217 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,719 Speaker 1: should just shut up and shut up and enjoy it, right, 218 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: But you can't if something is so it's it's cellular, 219 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: and it's also I'm a big YOUNGI in so the 220 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: collective unconscious is you know, is always so intriguing to me, 221 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: and there's there's a real disconnect and when you're in 222 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: disharmony with the universe, you know, starting with yourself. Everything 223 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: we talked about running around your back hand, that's what happens, 224 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: is that you just end up course correcting all the time. 225 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 1: When Jane talks about running around her backhand, this is 226 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: a phrase that originates in her youth as a tournament 227 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: tennis player, and one I love so much I'm gonna 228 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: start using it myself. I was also a tournament tennis player, 229 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: though probably not as good as Jane, and I remember 230 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: that coaches love to say this, don't run around your 231 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: back hand, meaning don't compensate or overcompensate, don't be afraid 232 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: of your weaknesses, running around whatever your truth is, whatever 233 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: you know deep down is the right thing to do. 234 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: So you're only playing with half your game because you're 235 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: so worried about failing or missing your shot. Or in 236 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: Jane's case, if she was enough of a winner, is 237 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: she nailed every shot, she would continue to be the 238 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: lucky chosen baby. In my own mind, now that I 239 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: can construct some of the stuff it was, they can't 240 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: possibly give me back if I'm this good. So now 241 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: Jane is twenty six years old, and she's sitting on 242 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: the edge of her bed with her bottle of scotch 243 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: and hearing the sound of her birth mother's voice for 244 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: the first time in her life. When I heard her voice, 245 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: it's like my my cell started knitting back together. It 246 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: was terrifying and exhilarating at the same time. So I decided, 247 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: you know, on that phone call with my birth mom 248 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: her name is Linda, to meet her and I flew 249 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: to Dallas the next week and I was my uniform 250 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: at the time probably still is today, was you know, 251 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: cowboy boots, jeans and a white shirt. And I walked 252 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: off the plane and at that time, people could meet 253 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: you at the gate, remember that like back in the 254 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: Stone ages. Uh. And there was my mother in a 255 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: white shirt, jeans and cowboy boots and we're doppelgangers, were 256 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: dead lookalikes. When you see somebody that you're a dead 257 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: ringer for. I mean my mannerism, the cadence of my voice, 258 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: the way I wore my hair, my blue eyes, my 259 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: whole It was the most soul shattering moment, and I 260 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: think sometimes you have to fall apart to put yourself 261 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: back together. And that was that brought the house down 262 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: for me. And then I started to learn to live. 263 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: And it was because I felt finally that that I 264 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: did belong somewhere. Jane's mother, Linda, Her life is complex. 265 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: Jane describes her as an extraordinary, very wounded person with 266 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: a loose grip on reality. Linda also has another child, 267 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: one she has raised, Jane's half brother, who has mixed 268 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: feelings about the discovery that he has a sibling. He 269 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: had never known about On her end, she had kept 270 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 1: me a secret from my half brother and the family, 271 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: so she had to come clean. So we went over 272 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 1: and we met my my half brother, who was not 273 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: really buying into this whole thing. He'd been the golden 274 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: child and his family, but they had lived a very 275 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: challenging life, I mean, just needless to say. And so 276 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: I met him, I met his two little kids and 277 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: his wife at the time, and the three of us 278 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: just decided to go out and do some skeet shooting 279 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: and that was really great. Um. And that's the other 280 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: thing is, from the time I was a small child, 281 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: I could ride and shoot like nobody's beeswax. Skeet shooting 282 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: as a bonding activity doesn't seem to quite go together 283 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: with Jane's Shaker Heights, progressive Jewish upbringing. Yes, a liberal 284 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 1: Jewish progressive Democrat, you know. I mean we we didn't 285 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: shoot guns, we didn't do all that kind of stuff. 286 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: But I went to these this fabulous summer camp where 287 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: we did all that, and that was just such a 288 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: part of my d n A because that's my whole family. 289 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: We're all you know, outdoorsy outlaws, addicts, you know, really 290 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: colorful group of people. So we just blew stuff up 291 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: and it was sort of this cathartic cool bonding. D 292 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: N a d oxy ribonucleic acid. There's a mouthful for you. 293 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: Here's a definition the fundamental and distinctive characteristics or qualities 294 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: of someone or something, especially when regarded as unchangeable. What 295 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: is it to recognize the characteristics or qualities of yourself 296 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: in someone else for the very first time. I remember 297 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: when I first laid eyes on my biological father. The 298 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: first time I saw him was on a YouTube video. 299 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: He was giving a lecture, and what I felt watching 300 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: him was a shocking sense of familiarity. His gestures, his 301 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: facial expressions, his very nature was like an overlay of 302 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: my own. The one thing about my mother, uh Linda, 303 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: was that she was dynamic. I mean, there was just 304 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: something She would just weave a spell around you. Her 305 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: charisma was extraordinary, and as she started to tell me 306 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: a little bit about her life, she started to answer 307 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: a lot of questions about how I operated. Because I'm 308 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: sort of an outlaw at heart, but I've been refined 309 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: and I've been educated, and I have a very distinct 310 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: moral compass and sort of code of conduct. But my mother, 311 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: who polished herself, up ended up leaving home at fifteen 312 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: or sixteen years old, found her way into the St. 313 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: Louis Mob and became a very high ranking U copo. 314 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: Just hold on a second here. In all the fantasies 315 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: that adopted children have about who their birth mother might be, 316 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: you know, famous actress, foreign royalty, I wonder if high 317 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: ranking capo in the St. Louis Mob has ever made 318 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: the list. Jane's mother with a mobster. She drove getaway cars, 319 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: She used her beauty to lure men into rooms where bad, 320 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: bad things happened. She fell in love with Kurt Flood, 321 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: a Hall of Fame baseball player, and even tried to 322 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: run away with him. Jane describes Linda as a black 323 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: widow type, dark and dangerous in a glamorous package. So 324 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: many of the stories that she told me about that 325 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: part of her life, which were really the glory days 326 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: of her life, started to help me make sense of 327 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: the mobster and me. And it was just an unbelievable like, 328 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: oh my god, now I get it, I get why 329 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: I think this way, I get so. It was just 330 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: a kind of a a chicken and egg thing. You know, 331 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: when you can't figure out why you're you operate this 332 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: like as a little Jewish girl from Shaker Heights. There 333 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: would be no reason for me to be as street 334 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: smart as I am. There would be no reason for 335 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: me to be able to read a room as quickly 336 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: as I can, um no frame of reference for any 337 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: of this stuff, and very different than my other siblings 338 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: and even my parents. The nature is so strong, you know. 339 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: The nurture is important, but what I learned was over 340 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: my lifetime was to appreciate so much the cellular knowledge 341 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: that is transferred from one generation to another, which it 342 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: could be argued, is why it's so important, why the 343 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: child is not a blank slate. Oh my gosh, it's 344 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: so true. And without somebody being able to claim their 345 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: history and to understand their history, most people feel fraudulent 346 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: and out of congruence. It's a terrible way to live. 347 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: And that school of thinking. School of thought has destroyed 348 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: so many people. And today, you know, after my own 349 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: journey of my own addiction, my job every single day 350 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: is to be rigorously honest with myself and other people. 351 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: And telling the truth is a hard thing to do, 352 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: and reconciling the truth is a hard thing to do. 353 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: So Jane meets her birth mom and the rest of 354 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: her birth family and learns so much about herself that 355 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: black hole, that yawning empty space inside her is all 356 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: filled up. She no longer feels the need to drink. 357 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: Cue the violence. In the Hollywood version of Jane's life, 358 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: that's what would happen right the moment she meets her mother, 359 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,360 Speaker 1: her biological mother, she would have everything she needs, her 360 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: questions all would be answered, and her addiction, well, that 361 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: would just go away. But life is not a Hollywood movie. 362 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: Jane is in her mid twenties when she meets Linda, 363 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: and it takes her until the age of forty to 364 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: get sober. Because I was carrying a secret, and that 365 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: destroyed me, ultimately destroyed me, and I ended up working 366 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: my whole life around protecting that secret of having met her, 367 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: establishing a relationship with her, you know, being forced to 368 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: live a double life because I was immediately welcomed in 369 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: to my birth family, all the while remaining staunchly a 370 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: part of my adoptive family. And I should have felt 371 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: like I was complete, but I felt like I had 372 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: betrayed that I was, had been treacherous and deceitful, that 373 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: if my family ever really found out that I had 374 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: done this, that I would be disowned, that the relationships 375 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: would be forever fractured. And that's actually pretty much what happened. 376 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: I had to end up telling my father, my beloved father, 377 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: because my brother was coming to town. My half brother 378 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: was coming to town to visit me, and I just 379 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: it's such a close knit community that we look so 380 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: much alike my birth mother and looks at that. I 381 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: knew that the minute he came to town, it was 382 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: the cat was out of the bag. So I ended 383 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: up telling my dad about this. Course he was shattered, 384 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: and he went and told my mother about this, and 385 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: I don't know that she's ever recovered. And that was 386 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: the last anybody ever spoke of it. So that's another wound, right. 387 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 1: But it strikes me that you didn't have to have 388 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: your half brother come to town, so you must have 389 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: on some level needed to bring this to a boil, 390 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: no question about it. And you know, some of that's 391 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: really a blur, and I think instinct kicks in. I 392 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: wanted my children to meet him, um, I wanted my 393 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: then husband to meet him, and I needed some support. 394 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: I needed people to share this burden with me, which 395 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,239 Speaker 1: it's a weird word to use, but that's what it was. 396 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back 397 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: in a moment. This idea of being burdened feels like 398 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,959 Speaker 1: an important one. Whenever a family secrets, who carries that burden? 399 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: And why does the burden shift from one family member 400 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: to another? Does the burden exist if the secret manages 401 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: to stay secret? What are all the implications of the hidden, 402 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: the unseat, the unknown. Can you talk more about shame, 403 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: because it seems to me there are a few through 404 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 1: lines both in my story and all the stories with 405 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: the people that I've been in conversations with for this podcast, 406 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: and one of those through lines is shame. Another is 407 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: a close cousin to shame, which is this feeling of 408 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: not deserving. And so it seems to me that when 409 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: someone has been raised in the atmosphere of the unseid 410 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: in some way, even if you know child, a child 411 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 1: doesn't know necessarily what the what that thing is. It's 412 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: just this feeling of not having all the information and 413 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: somehow not having a right to it, or not having 414 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: a right to one's own reality, right oh you, just 415 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: like I feel like i'm you know, a little unglued 416 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: because you've just hit me so hard with you know, 417 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: those are the through lines of my life, are feeling worthy. 418 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: And my sense of worth was in my accomplishments, and 419 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: people in my life were very happy to wear my 420 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: accomplishments on their sleeve. So then I was validated socially 421 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: and all for all of that. But that was such 422 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: an external thing. And then shame is another thing that 423 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: I still, you know, at fifty eight years old, battle 424 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: every day of my life. And I really do look 425 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: in the mirror and say, what do you have to 426 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: be ashamed of? Like You're a cool person, You've raised 427 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: great kids, you have great business, you help people, you 428 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: do it. But deep in my soul, I have never 429 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: been able to heal that, you know, even with as 430 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: much work as I've done, you know, in my own 431 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: growth and my own sort of therapeutic growth, I can't 432 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,959 Speaker 1: get it right. It's like such a broken piece of 433 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: me and I just don't quite know how to do it, 434 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: but I keep trying. Jane has some years of heading 435 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: down a parallel track to Linda's. Linda is a pill addict. 436 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: Jane is an active alcoholic. This is something they have 437 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: in common, something also likely rooted in their shared biology. 438 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: But in Jane finally gets sober and Linda, Linda does not. 439 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 1: I just had a sort of a flash of insight here. 440 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: But I lived just culturally differently. But I lived the 441 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 1: same story as my mother of feeling on the outside, 442 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: you know, finding ways to belong um, dealing with the 443 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: trauma of trying to fit in and figure out where 444 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: you exist. And ultimatelyly my mother destroyed herself. I didn't, 445 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: and I was able to catch myself before I died prematurely. 446 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: But that same desire to want to destroy one's self 447 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: I share with my mother. Now I was clean and sober, 448 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: and she was starting to fall further further into depression, 449 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: um compensatory behaviors. She was a terrible cigare at smoker, 450 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: and um she was an alcoholic, but she was prescription 451 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: painkiller queen. And I just saw mental illness started roll 452 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: over her and there was no stopping it. And then, 453 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: you know, as somebody new in recovery, you want to 454 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: share that and you want to talk about it. Well, 455 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: that's the last thing that somebody wants to talk about 456 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:27,479 Speaker 1: when they're in active addiction. Linda dies in two thousand seven, 457 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: destitute and alone in government housing in rural Missouri near 458 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: the Ozark Mountains, in a tiny house filled with the 459 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: stench of cigarettes, every surface covered with tar. Jane had 460 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: already completed her graduate degree and by that time was 461 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: well on her way to doing her work as an interventionist. Ultimately, 462 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: she ended up perishing, and the the talk about the 463 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,959 Speaker 1: shame of not being able to save her, you know, 464 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: and then really watch her die and then discover her 465 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: in the condition, her living condition, which I knew nothing about, 466 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: thank god, because I would have bankrupted myself to provide 467 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: some kind of lifestyle for her. I mean, what a mess. 468 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: But um, what it did for me is it woke 469 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: me up. And I'm a light keeper today. And unless 470 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: you've lived in the dark, you don't know what light is. 471 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: You think you do, but you don't, you know. Fifteen 472 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: years down the road now, Um, I feel like I've 473 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: lived several lifetimes in this lifetime. But this is where 474 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: I belong because for some reason I have that ability 475 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: to reach in up to the dark and pull people out, 476 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: or be a part of pulling people out. I don't 477 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: want to you know, sound like a grandized but it's 478 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: kind of an amazing thing. Well, you aren't afraid of it, no, 479 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: and you are able to recognize it. And I'm strong, 480 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: you know, I've survived. Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? 481 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: The way that it can all coexist? And it's still 482 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: so confusing. While I have lots of pieces and parts, 483 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: it's not completely integrated. And I think that that's my 484 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: sole journey this time around, is to you know, continue 485 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: to seek the truth and to be of service to others. 486 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: And that's part of my healing and my journey and 487 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: my self actualization. But it's all very confusing. Jane uses 488 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: a lot of imagery in her conversation, and this makes 489 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: sense to me. Images are often easier to hold onto 490 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: the language than words. She described herself earlier as a 491 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: huge young Gian Carl Jung, the psychoanalytic poet of the unconscious. 492 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: When Jane studied for her master's degree, she was drawn 493 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: to the work of Clarissa Pincola s d. Is one 494 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: of the great Indian analysts of our time. She's told 495 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: the story of the Zygote Baby and effectively, Um, and 496 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: I'll probably butcher this, but you'll get it is that 497 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: the stork is flying across the sky with a big 498 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: basket on its back, and all these little babies are 499 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: in the basket, ready to be delivered to their intended families. 500 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: But there are always these the little ones that like 501 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: over percolate, and they're so excited that they end up 502 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: falling out of the basket into the wrong family, and 503 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: they spend their whole lives trying to reconcile their difference. 504 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: They're they're sort of intuitive, knowing difference from where they 505 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: landed to who they are as human beings. That's the 506 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: story of my life. And while I don't feel that 507 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: my family was wrong, I felt that I did unnaturally 508 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: land in my family. I am that zygote baby, and 509 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: I think that many adoptive kids feel that way. But 510 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: we end up actually being the most dynamic, resilient, powerful 511 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: people because of everything that we've had to endure to 512 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: get to our truth. I'd like to thank my guest 513 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: Jane Mints, for sharing her family secret. You can find 514 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: out more about Jane and her work at Jane mints 515 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: dot com. Family Secrets is an I Heart Media production. 516 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: Dylan Fagan is the supervising producer. Andrew Howard and Tristan 517 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: McNeil are the audio engineers, and Julie Douglas is the 518 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: executive producer. If you have a family secret you'd like 519 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: to share, you can get in touch with us at 520 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: listener mail at Family Secrets Podcast dot com, and you 521 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: can also find us on Instagram at Danny Ryder, and 522 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: Facebook at Family Secrets Pod, and Twitter at Fami Secrets Pod. 523 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: That's Fami Secrets. For more about my book, Inheritance, visit 524 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro dot com