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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: of you has expressed here do not represent those of

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Speaker 1: my Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: heat as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they

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Speaker 1: may not even represent my own and nothing contained in

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Speaker 1: this show should be used as medical advice or encouragement

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Speaker 1: to use any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is Andre Collinsopolis. He is perhaps the most

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Speaker 1: famous current figure in the world of big tobacco. He's

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Speaker 1: worked at Philip Morris International, the huge tobacco conglomerate, for

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Speaker 1: almost forty years. He's been the chief operating officer, the

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Speaker 1: chief ex ecutive officers now chairman of the board. And

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Speaker 1: I want to be talking to him today for two reasons.

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Speaker 1: One is, you know what's it like to head one

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Speaker 1: of the most vilified companies in the world selling a

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Speaker 1: product that kills half the people who use it as designed.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time he has been the most

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Speaker 1: forward thinking and outspoken of the big tobacco leaders in

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Speaker 1: advocating for a rapid transition from cigarettes and other combustible

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Speaker 1: forms of tobacco to e cigarettes, inhalable forms and other

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Speaker 1: harm reduction approaches. So, Andre, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: agreeing to talk with me on Psychoactive. Well, Leathan, thank

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Speaker 1: you very much for having me, and thank you for

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Speaker 1: this very nice introduction, which I don't think I deserve

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Speaker 1: everything you said, but I'm very happy to be on

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Speaker 1: the show. Okay, so let me let me revamp it

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Speaker 1: a bit dead. So some people, you know, would regard

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Speaker 1: you as sort the devil incarnate, right, the guy who's

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Speaker 1: leading one of the biggest companies in the world that's

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Speaker 1: selling these tobacco cigarettes cancer sticks that kills half of

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Speaker 1: all long term users when used as directed Right, you know,

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Speaker 1: eight million people are going to die this year around

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Speaker 1: the world from smoking, either directly or from second hand

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Speaker 1: smoke in some cases. On the other hand, you've also

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Speaker 1: been the head of a company which is made what

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Speaker 1: appears to be of all the big tobacco companies, the

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Speaker 1: most serious commitment to to basically shifting out of combustible

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Speaker 1: cigarettes into other forms of nicotine consumption. That are widely

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Speaker 1: believed to be much safer. So I want to start

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Speaker 1: off by saying, you know, I saw the fellow. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure I pronounce his name, Old Jack, your CEO.

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Speaker 1: The guy who worked for you for many years, has

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Speaker 1: replaced you as a CEO he said. Last year, he goes,

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Speaker 1: I want to allow this company to leave smoking behind.

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Speaker 1: I think in the UK ten years from now maximum

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Speaker 1: you completely solve the problem of smoking. And when he

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Speaker 1: was then asked that then, Philip Morris, we started selling

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Speaker 1: traditional cigarettes in the UK within that time, he replied, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: So say a little more about that. Well, let's give

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Speaker 1: some context for the audience. Clearly it's very well down.

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Speaker 1: Cigarettes cause disease and unaddictive and premature deaths. So what

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Speaker 1: is less known is the reason or the main reason

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Speaker 1: for that. And the main reason for that is combustion,

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Speaker 1: the fact that we burn tobacco, and that's what creates

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Speaker 1: most of the toxic substances that cause morbidity and mortality.

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Speaker 1: So the answer to resolving the problem for the people

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Speaker 1: that would otherwise continue using cigarettes is not to combast

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Speaker 1: a substrate. And the first thing we did is to

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Speaker 1: develop a portfolio of products that comprise heated tobacco, so

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Speaker 1: heated the temperatures that don't create combustion, which diminishes very

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Speaker 1: significantly the toxical is generated by We also have products

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Speaker 1: in what is more known in the US, like vapor products,

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Speaker 1: and we also have products that are in the form

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Speaker 1: of pouches that contain no tobacco at all. So all

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Speaker 1: these products do contain nicotine because that's important for smokers

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Speaker 1: to switch, but they don't combast, so we have a

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Speaker 1: very substantial reduction in their toxicity. The second thing to do,

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Speaker 1: and we've done, is to substantiate scientifically that these products

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Speaker 1: actually in pre clinical and clinical trials demonstrate reduction of

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Speaker 1: toxicity exposure to the toxicans and eventually you know, the

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Speaker 1: promise of a re action in morbidity and mortality. And

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Speaker 1: we have submitted these studies to many countries, including to

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Speaker 1: the US Food and Drug Administration, which issued in order

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Speaker 1: that these products reduced the exposure and authorize their sale

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Speaker 1: in the US. So I think, on one side, we

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Speaker 1: need manufacturers to invest in developing these products and then

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Speaker 1: put their hearts and their money behind convincing existing smokers

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Speaker 1: to switch to these products. But this is the first

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Speaker 1: step and the second step clear and I'm sure we'll

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Speaker 1: discuss this, is to have regulators in the US and

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Speaker 1: around the world adopting the right policies that differentiates these products,

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Speaker 1: that cigarettes, recognizing the absence of combustion and the lower toxicity,

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Speaker 1: so the potential benefit to public health, so that we encourage,

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Speaker 1: through commercial activities on side, the regulatory frameworks on the

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Speaker 1: other side, smokers to switch. And if we do that properly,

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Speaker 1: I think we can phase out cigarettes very fast. Now,

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Speaker 1: what do you say when people say, you know, until

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Speaker 1: you've got longitudal studies twenty three or thirty years of data,

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Speaker 1: it's all bullshit. I mean that we don't really know

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Speaker 1: what these things are going to do to people twenty

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Speaker 1: thirty years from now. So let's just hold your horses

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Speaker 1: and let's you know, hold back and making a big

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Speaker 1: switch into the non combustibles. What's your response to them, Well,

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Speaker 1: my response is that every day we lose in letting

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Speaker 1: people having as an alternative only to continue smoking or

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Speaker 1: quitting is a lost day in public health. The second

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Speaker 1: thing is that all the precursors to what you call

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Speaker 1: epidemiological studies or long term studies is pretty clinical and

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Speaker 1: short term clinical studies, and if you have very substantial

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Speaker 1: reduction in exposure two toxicans, is very natural to assume

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Speaker 1: you will have reduction in disease caused by these toxicons

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Speaker 1: because the toxicans are known. If we do nothing, nobody

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Speaker 1: will adopt this product. And you know that the subject

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Speaker 1: is a bit complex, but it's not different from essentially

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Speaker 1: trying to convince consumers to move from using fossive fuels

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Speaker 1: to renewable energy. It's not that the renewable energies are

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Speaker 1: proven to have zero impact on the environment. Actually they don't.

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Speaker 1: They're must be better than vernicle or fossil fuels. And

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Speaker 1: we do both the you know, the products and the

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Speaker 1: regulatory measures to convince people who consume energy to switch

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Speaker 1: to this alternative. So we're trying to apply an extreme

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Speaker 1: precautionary principle here, but clearly there are also legitimate concerns.

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Speaker 1: There are legitimate concerns that we need to minimize impact

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Speaker 1: in undesirable audiences, particularly youth. Also people that have quit

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Speaker 1: and because these products are better than cigarettes, maybe they

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Speaker 1: will come back. That's why the regulatory framework has to

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Speaker 1: be fair district on how you commercialize this product at

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Speaker 1: all that is physible. This is not a reason not

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Speaker 1: to allow these products on the markets and then deprived

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Speaker 1: smokers forever from these products because they have their right

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Speaker 1: also to be informed that these products exists what they are,

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Speaker 1: but they are not because they still contain ecotiner addictives.

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Speaker 1: They're not zero risks, but they're much better than cigarettes

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Speaker 1: for the ones who would like to continue using nicotine products.

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Speaker 1: Now people will come back and say, well, why don't

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Speaker 1: you just get out of the damned cigarette industry entirely?

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Speaker 1: Like when it comes to the rest of the industry,

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Speaker 1: do you guys talk with or another? Do you talk

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Speaker 1: to their CEOs or chairs? Do you guys lead? Are

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Speaker 1: they just looking if you get too far out of

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Speaker 1: head on shifting a harmyduction just to scoop up your

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Speaker 1: market share? Uh? You know, are you better than all

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Speaker 1: the other guys? You know, I mean British, American Tobacco,

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Speaker 1: Japan Tobacco, Imperial, all those. What's the nature of industry

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Speaker 1: at at at the executive the top level in terms

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Speaker 1: of the movement of harmy option. Okay, clearly we have

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Speaker 1: been leading in this domain for various reasons. Other companies

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Speaker 1: in the industry where slower in entering this domain, and

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Speaker 1: we can examine why. But the thing is, once these

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Speaker 1: products start being available to consumers and consumers starts reaching

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Speaker 1: to them, I don't think there is an option from

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Speaker 1: a pure competitive point of view for other manufacturers not

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Speaker 1: to enter the domain now to do these products. If

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Speaker 1: you start today, you're not going to have a product tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: It takes years to develop the products, and once you

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Speaker 1: have a developed product, you believe it's just the ability

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Speaker 1: to switch consumers. Then you need to do all your

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Speaker 1: quick clinically clinical trials, and then after that you need

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Speaker 1: to do the right market surveillance to avoid unintended audiences,

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Speaker 1: but long term established epidemiology as well. So it's a

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Speaker 1: big investment to make and it takes multiple years. We

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Speaker 1: talk or as it took, maybe we're slow, but it

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Speaker 1: took us six seven years to develop the first heated

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Speaker 1: tobacco product and another three or four years to do

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Speaker 1: the substantiation. So it's a ten year investment of multi

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Speaker 1: billion dollars. Because these products because they have lower taxes

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Speaker 1: and that's part of the regulatory UH framework, they also

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Speaker 1: have higher margins that justify your investments. Then once we

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Speaker 1: reach a sufficient critical massive smokers that have switched to

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Speaker 1: these products, then do side measures or other regulatory interveneurs

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Speaker 1: like up and trade or nicotine reduction as the Fday

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Speaker 1: is discussing. So you've kind of further incentivize consumers to switch,

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Speaker 1: but also manufacturers on a stick and currot base to

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Speaker 1: start investing now because you know in ten years, fifteen years,

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Speaker 1: the measures are going to be so drastic on the

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Speaker 1: people that have not invested in these new products that

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Speaker 1: it will be not sustainable from a business perspective. And

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Speaker 1: what is important, sorry if I sound like a broken record,

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Speaker 1: is that public health authorities and governments get aligned behind

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Speaker 1: Haart reduction. Because if you're a manufacturer and you have

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Speaker 1: very ambiguous views in your country about what this products

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Speaker 1: should be authorized or not. In some countries they banned

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Speaker 1: vapor products. In some countries they banned both in vapor

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Speaker 1: products and heated tobacco products as precautionary principle, So that

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Speaker 1: doesn't incentivize manufacturers around the world to invest heavily in

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Speaker 1: this product. So having the governments and public health being

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Speaker 1: aligned that yes, the best thing is to quit, but

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Speaker 1: if you don't quit. Then the second best is to

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Speaker 1: move to this products and create the right incentive. Says

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Speaker 1: that stick and current. Yeah, sometimes get this sense and

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Speaker 1: they tell me if it's wrong or not. That in

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Speaker 1: the countries that are good on harm reduction, like the

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Speaker 1: United Kingdom or maybe New Zealand, that in those countries,

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Speaker 1: you know, you p M. I are willing to kind

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Speaker 1: of really you know, be very non aggressive with selling

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Speaker 1: your cigarettes, really to pull back and you know, not

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Speaker 1: do anything that people would I mean they don't like

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Speaker 1: you selling in the first place, but that you're not

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Speaker 1: going to push it hard. Where's a country like Mexico

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Speaker 1: which is banning basically all the harm reduction products, or

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Speaker 1: certainly east cigarettes and heat not burn things. You know,

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Speaker 1: it seems like you're more so I saw. I think

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Speaker 1: you've got a letter from some of the harm reduction

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Speaker 1: supportive scientists saying, you know, what do you do with

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Speaker 1: Marlborough shuffle? There's a Marble shuffle. Some product you have

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Speaker 1: in Mexico is a marketing campaign, especially attractive to young people.

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Speaker 1: It's got these capsule things. It's actually to try different flavors.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is there that sense that if a government

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Speaker 1: is going to shut you out on harmonduction. You're just

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Speaker 1: gonna be a little more of a bad boy when

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Speaker 1: it comes to marketing cigarettes. Absolutely not. Uh. First of all,

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Speaker 1: just to give a little bit of perspective here, um today,

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Speaker 1: in the markets where we are present with this product, okay,

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Speaker 1: or we can be present, and if you look at

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Speaker 1: pre mind total, more than eighty percent of our commercial

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Speaker 1: money marketing sales forces go behind this products, although we

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Speaker 1: still represent a fraction of the pond, okay, So we

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Speaker 1: put our money to our mouths. Secondly, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not that if you are aggressive in marketing certain products,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of retaliation with every governments, okay, becauseural governments

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Speaker 1: don't care about these things. The second thing is in

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Speaker 1: certain markets where I mean Mexico essentially banned the importable

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Speaker 1: these products, okay, So the only thing is to continue

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Speaker 1: the dialogue with the government to convince them that that

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Speaker 1: was not the brightest idea they had. Okay. And on

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Speaker 1: the other side, you need to do a minimum in

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Speaker 1: the cigarette market where you have nothing else in order

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Speaker 1: to maintain at least your market share. That where you're

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Speaker 1: just from a shareholder's perspective, you move your market share

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Speaker 1: to competitors. But we are not investing behind cigarettes, okay.

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Speaker 1: And whenever a market is makes it possible for us

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Speaker 1: to commercialize these products, we do commercialize, Okay. I would

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Speaker 1: love Indonesia to finally adapt all the regulations necessary. Philippines

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Speaker 1: were moving in the right direction and we started I

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Speaker 1: link this products there, and I hope you mentioned in Mexico.

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Speaker 1: You know, people in Mexico will see the opportunity in

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Speaker 1: the government and take the right measures other than banning

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Speaker 1: the products and condemning people to only smoke. But there

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Speaker 1: is no we pro void the two okay, So let

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Speaker 1: me press you harder. I mean, then we'll get more

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Speaker 1: into the harmony duction stuff. And some of the other

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Speaker 1: skeptics will say so when it comes to, for example,

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Speaker 1: bands and tobacco advertising, that there was recently a referendum

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Speaker 1: in Switzerland right where you live, you know, and I

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Speaker 1: think that P might other companies opposed the Swiss referendum

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Speaker 1: to ban virtually all tobacco advertising. Now was that because

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Speaker 1: it was also a ban on noncombustibles or what was

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Speaker 1: your why were we doing that? Correct? Not applies in

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Speaker 1: general you know to all institutions, mightly to them is

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Speaker 1: to follow different shade noncombustible products from combustible products, okay,

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Speaker 1: or scientifically proven reduced risk products, let's call them. And

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Speaker 1: then you can do whatever you want with cigarettes. In

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Speaker 1: any case, in many countries, that is not much more

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Speaker 1: that is available. Two you know prohibit So the reality

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Speaker 1: is on cigarettes. You know, as I said, be my

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Speaker 1: guests and do whatever they want. Right. But but but you're

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Speaker 1: saying p m I. Now when it comes to you know,

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Speaker 1: if governments want to increase taxes on cigarettes, bean advertising,

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Speaker 1: limit where you can take it. At this point, p

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Speaker 1: m I is not opposing those types of things anywhere,

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Speaker 1: so long as it's focused on cigarettes and not on

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Speaker 1: the noncombustibles. Is that right. Let's let's take one after that.

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Speaker 1: When you talk about tobacco products or even words all

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Speaker 1: nicotine products, and you apply all the same rules to

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Speaker 1: all this products, then clearly your favorite cigarettes. Because the

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Speaker 1: new categories various degrees are relatively unknown smoke, so you

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Speaker 1: need some differentiating factors so you can explain to consumers

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Speaker 1: what these products are. I'm not saying TV advertising or

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Speaker 1: radio advertising or things like this, but the ability to

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Speaker 1: contact people, the ability to them to try this product,

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Speaker 1: I mean you have countries where you cannot offer a

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Speaker 1: consumer the possibility to try a smoke free product by law.

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Speaker 1: So how how is a smoker going to try this

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Speaker 1: product and spend money to buy it if they can

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Speaker 1: try it. So it's the minimum necessary to communicate with consumers.

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Speaker 1: The second thing is you do need differentiated taxation between

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Speaker 1: the two categories, because one is easy to market, is

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Speaker 1: very well known. The other requires, as I said previously,

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Speaker 1: a very significant investment in product development and scientific assessment

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Speaker 1: priclin clinical. So we don't have the same spend by

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Speaker 1: any measure between the two. I mean, if you want

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Speaker 1: to create any cigarette, you just maximum you will do

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Speaker 1: is adapt the geometry of the packaging and you have

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Speaker 1: a new product in six months, and the others have

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Speaker 1: horizons of four to eight years. So this has to

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Speaker 1: be recognized. In terms of taxation. We've always said governments

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Speaker 1: always increase excess taxes, and they will continue increasing both

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Speaker 1: form for revenue reasons but also as a measure to

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Speaker 1: diminished consumption. So they can increase. Always say don't do

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Speaker 1: abrupt to one nots, have a plan and increase every

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Speaker 1: year by the amount you want, and then this is

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Speaker 1: perfect Okay, we know what's happening. If you have one

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Speaker 1: of you have contraband, and then the legitimate sales go

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Speaker 1: down and illegal products get the market. But what is

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Speaker 1: more important is that they keep some differentiation between the

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Speaker 1: smoke free category and the smoking right collects because the

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Speaker 1: same thing we do for electric cars, they pay less

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Speaker 1: taxes and so on. So I understand we're saying something

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Speaker 1: that is unreasonable. Yeah, you know it makes sense. Let

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Speaker 1: me ask you, what's your thoughts on these menthol bands

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Speaker 1: or I think European Union did it? The US did it?

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Speaker 1: Used to work? I think you first started working with

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Speaker 1: p m I in Poland. Poland's one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: consumers of mental aid in cigarettes. Are they a good idea?

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Speaker 1: What do you think? Okay? First of all, the European

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Speaker 1: Union did the band mental in cigarettes. The US has

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Speaker 1: not yet bunned. Okay, so that's the first thing. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm supporting the measure as a measure that when we

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Speaker 1: have good availability of vapor product, executed tobacco products or pouches,

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Speaker 1: that's a nice way to push consumers of menthol into

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Speaker 1: the new categories. Just happen in the right time, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll try bunning menthol without having smoke free alternatives. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: what happened in the European Union is that the most

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Speaker 1: smokers reached to normal cigarettes, I mean to non mental cigarettes. Okay,

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Speaker 1: class you see some people buying mental and mental lating

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Speaker 1: their packs because it's very easy. So I don't think

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Speaker 1: we had the effect that we wanted to have, and

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Speaker 1: we would have much better effect if it happened the

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Speaker 1: way you describe, if alternatives were on the market, and

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Speaker 1: then you give a very good chance to these new

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Speaker 1: products to be adopted. But people didn't really quit. We'll

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Speaker 1: be talking more after we hear this add Now, there's

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Speaker 1: this other proposal that's been put for in the US

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Speaker 1: in June of this year to basically reduce the level

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Speaker 1: of nicotine and cigarettes to the point where they're almost

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Speaker 1: not cigarettes anymore, and there's not cutting it by half.

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Speaker 1: By cutting it by and the estimatest would save millions

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Speaker 1: of lives. My senses, it might actually be the movement

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Speaker 1: where we switched to a defective tobacco prohibition and launch

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Speaker 1: cigarettes into the big leagues of major global drug trafficking.

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Speaker 1: But what's your views on this reduced nicotine thing. Will

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Speaker 1: there ever be a moment where this makes sense to

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Speaker 1: do or is that just pushing on the supply side

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Speaker 1: controls too far. The supply side controls, as I said,

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Speaker 1: is measures you can take when you have good availability

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Speaker 1: of alternatives to avoid what you just describe sitrate self

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Speaker 1: nipotinization and so on. Okay, so people spike their cigarettes

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Speaker 1: that have no nipotine with nicotine and so on. I

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Speaker 1: think this has to be seen in the US in

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Speaker 1: the context of the policy announced a few years ago

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Speaker 1: by the Commissioner and reaches a lot of the head

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Speaker 1: of tobacco in the FDA that they saw and dual strategy.

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Speaker 1: The one is on one side, we may alternatives available

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Speaker 1: that are scientifically proven and authorized, and on the other side,

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Speaker 1: in the right moment, we reduced nicotine in cigarettes as

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Speaker 1: a measure. It's not the only one, but that's the

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Speaker 1: only one the FDA has under control. Now. If we

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Speaker 1: talk about cup and trade and other measures of this nature,

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Speaker 1: probably they are more effective. But the principle of allowing

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Speaker 1: alternatives and then do the right regulatory measures at a

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Speaker 1: certain stage to accelerate the phase out are rational regulations.

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Speaker 1: The danger in general will take one side of the

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Speaker 1: regulation and we forget the other. Okay. So to me,

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Speaker 1: this is a measure that is a stick and currot measure.

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Speaker 1: It's a phase out measure, and it has to be

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Speaker 1: seen with other possible measures and not on its own, Okay.

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Speaker 1: But the principle, I think it's clear from abiating myself,

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Speaker 1: you need availability of this product, you need the right framework,

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Speaker 1: and then eventually the phase out measures at the right moment,

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Speaker 1: and that I'm fully supported. You know, part of this

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Speaker 1: bi monthly conference call with a lot of the leading

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Speaker 1: tobacco control experts who are sympathetic to harmonaduct share, and

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Speaker 1: it's fair to say, you know, none of them fully

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Speaker 1: trust you p m I. Big tobacco people vary in

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Speaker 1: these things, but the one issue everybody's on is, you know,

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Speaker 1: p m I is out there claiming that there's twelve

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Speaker 1: and a half million adult smokers who have switched completely

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Speaker 1: to icos from cigarettes and stopped smoking, not counting Russian Ukraine,

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Speaker 1: so even more than that, And the question is how

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Speaker 1: do you know? And they're asking you for data. You know,

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Speaker 1: they say, if you're claiming what your market share is

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Speaker 1: with icos and all this, there must be data, and

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Speaker 1: you're not being transparent. You're not handing over the information.

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Speaker 1: You're sending your people to meet with them, and you're saying, yes,

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Speaker 1: we understand, blah blah blah blah blah, but that basically

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Speaker 1: you're holding back on providing the formation that can really

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Speaker 1: substantiate what you claim to be the powerful substitution effects

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Speaker 1: for icons for people switching. So why why are you

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Speaker 1: holding back? Why not be as totally transparent as possible

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00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: in this stuffs of all we want to be transparent. Okay.

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Speaker 1: The thing is, icons and vapor products are rather recent phenomenon. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So in the cigarette market you have fluctuations over the

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Speaker 1: last three years that are fairly big. You had covid

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Speaker 1: or in some countries, you increase consumption the US, In

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Speaker 1: some countries you had a decreasing consumption of cigarettes. In

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Speaker 1: some countries you still have icons and vapor being a

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Speaker 1: small part of the market five six p so, and

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00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 1: you have price changes and touch change. So the data

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Speaker 1: needs to be cleaned up from all this in order

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Speaker 1: to be available to scientists to study, and the only

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Speaker 1: way to do that is to have the right scientists

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Speaker 1: with you. So you explain all the other influence in phenomena. Okay,

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00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: it's a fact that we know from all the consumer

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Speaker 1: surveys we're doing. We're gonna make available all the panel

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Speaker 1: data that people who switched to icos. You know, if

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Speaker 1: out of hundred people switch to who buy icos, I'm

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00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: sorry about stay with icos and sixty problem with sevents

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Speaker 1: which completely to and that you have the follow up

391
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: of the consumers, you can say it's a bit bias

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Speaker 1: data by the panel and that's a fact. On the

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Speaker 1: other side, as the Icons in particular share is building up,

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Speaker 1: clearly the data will become more visible. It's very visible.

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Speaker 1: In Japan the category is at almost thirty percent of

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Speaker 1: the market, so it's very visible. I think the visible

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Speaker 1: cigarette sales as exactly. So you do you start seeing

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Speaker 1: in Italy another market, So I think it's a question

399
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: of time. But there's not a lack of transparency. The

400
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: data is there. But if we make the effort to

401
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: clean up the data from other factors, the data also

402
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 1: can be used. But you need to take price increases,

403
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: price changes, tax increases and the COVID period. So it's

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00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: not something to take off the show and you give

405
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: we need to do the analysis. That's all. Yeah, I understand,

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Speaker 1: just just a little, you know, piece of advice or

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Speaker 1: encouragement that for the people who are most sympathetic to

408
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 1: your you know, what you're trying to do in terms

409
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: of your transition and combustibles, being as transparent as possible

410
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: to evidence would actually make a real difference. Now let

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00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: me turn to the opposition to this thing, Mike Bloomberg,

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Speaker 1: who has put hundreds of millions of dollars. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: initially it was all about trying to fight smoking. He's

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Speaker 1: still trying to fight smoking. I assume at this point

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Speaker 1: you probably agree with a fair bit about what Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: is doing to try to you know, restrict smoking, increased restrictions,

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00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. But meanwhile, he's adopted an

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Speaker 1: aggressively anti tobacco harm reduction position, and he is a

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Speaker 1: major funder of the Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids, which

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00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 1: seems to have evolved from an anti smoking organization to

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00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: a nicotine abstinence organization. He's then ambassador official ambassador World

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Speaker 1: Health organization, which seems to be taking anti scientific positions

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Speaker 1: and harm reduction. You know, what do you think striving

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00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: these guys? Sometimes people act on ideology, sometimes on self interest.

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Speaker 1: It's difficult for me to understand sometimes why people that

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Speaker 1: used to be all harm reduction, all of a sudden,

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00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: you know, they move the debate from comparing the smoke

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Speaker 1: free products with cigarettes, which is the problem, to a

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Speaker 1: zero risk product. So I guess it's ideology. I guess

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00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: it's a bit of panic because when you don't have

431
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: an enemy or the enemy is doing the right things. Uh,

432
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: you know, some ngeo's think they're going to lose their purpose.

433
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: Some of the audience remember that years ago we had

434
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: head we called the value disease, so people that we're

435
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: inhaling something and they had serious problems with the lens

436
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: and eventually some of the people died, which is terrible.

437
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 1: But this had nothing to do with invapor products. These

438
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: were it was proven that were people that used I

439
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: don't know, kind of be noise or legally produced THHC cartridges.

440
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: So it has to be entirely about some knuckleheads putting

441
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: vitamin e acetate into the th HC cartridges. But everybody blamed,

442
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: you know, the vapors, the east cigarettes and nicotine cigarettes,

443
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: and that's what's stuck in the public consciousness, and it

444
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: really appeared that, you know that that the anti tobacco

445
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: and anti harmonduction forces really took advantage of a broad

446
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: public misperception in order to advance their agenda. I don't

447
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: know if I'm just putting saying exactly what you were

448
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: going to say there, but probably well model as you

449
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: are saying correctly. And the question I ask is who

450
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: is accountable for that? Because you know, after the peak

451
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: of this crisis, unfortunate crisis even in Europe, in France

452
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: and many other countries, who had six of the smokers,

453
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: who started to believe that evapor products are equally bad

454
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: or worse than cigarette, which I think is a public

455
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: health disaster. So I've heard some people say that that,

456
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it makes sense to me in a way

457
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: that you know, you guys probably still make more money

458
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: from cigarettes than you do from all these harm reduction things,

459
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: you know, and that you know it's basically a cash

460
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: cow for big Tobacco that keeps selling cigarettes, and that

461
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: Mike Bloomberg and w h O and Campaign Redaco Free

462
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: Kids and all these anti harm reduction folks by virtue

463
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: of putting out all these lies and blocking the adoption

464
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: of harm reduction, that dave essentially become your biggest allies.

465
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: That essentially you should be sent a thank you note

466
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: to Mike Bloomberg at least for the short term, because

467
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: he's helping post your cigarette sales. And in fact, it

468
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: does appear that in some places cigarette sales have stopped

469
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: going down because people no longer see the you know,

470
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: East cigarettes and he not burn devices as as safer.

471
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: What do you say, are they basically the factor your

472
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: ally now in terms of short term profits. Factually, you

473
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: are correct. By demonizing the better products. You know, you

474
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: make people believe that cigarettes are the only alternative, and

475
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: frankly speaking, yes, they help the people that want only

476
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: to sell a cigarette, because it would be ideal if

477
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: the World Health Organization was at least neutral on this product. Right,

478
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: But it's the short term bottom line in terms of

479
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: the profits of cigarettes, well, the profits of cigarettes, you know,

480
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: as I said many times also to investors, the margin

481
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: we make on these products, spoke for products is better

482
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: than cigarettes. So we don't only have a model incentive.

483
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: We have a financial incentive to sell these products, and

484
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: they're better because we convinced the regulators around the world

485
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: to give us better tax treatment than on cigarettes, and

486
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: they understand that if you have a better product, you

487
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: need to incentivize both manufacturers and consumers to switch to

488
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: this product. Okay, so I think it makes sense to

489
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: us not to sell cigarettes. Yeah. Yeah, But I mean

490
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: you know what people also say, right is look what

491
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: what what you pick tobacco or in p M I

492
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: really wants is they want to evolve from a world

493
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: in which a billion plus people are smoking cigarettes and

494
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: a hundred million are using these harm reduction products, these

495
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,479
Speaker 1: reduced risk products, to a world in which two billion

496
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: people are using the reduced risk products and only a

497
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: hundred million people are smoking. And that's the way they'll

498
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: sustain their profits. People will still be a to nicotine.

499
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: Uh now, I mean personally, it seems to me that

500
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: from a public health perspective, that's a major advance. But

501
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: it's in fact that the objective here that imagining a

502
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: world in which you know, you know, even more people

503
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: are using these nicotine products and currently smoke, but we're

504
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: the humutive harms the health or much lower. Is that

505
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: is that the long term strategy. No, the long term

506
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: strategy is to switch smokers, minimize initiation to any nicotine

507
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: product and then continue diversifying the company into new domains

508
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: or our revenues. I'm talking about Philip Morris, our competitors

509
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: mm hmm, where we have other sources of revenue than

510
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: nicotine products. And recently we want to harma companies because

511
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: we have some expertise in oral and inhalation delivery, so

512
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: we think we can repurpose certain existing drugs into fast

513
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: delivery through in elation, so that we start moving away

514
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: from pure nicotine in dependence. I don't think it's feasible,

515
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: even in the wildest imagination of a tobacco company, to

516
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: believe that we're going to increase the number of people

517
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: we use nicotine products of the time. This is not

518
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: Let me ask you why not. I mean, if you

519
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: think about it, when tobacco came out of you know,

520
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: the America's three years ago, it's sort of swept the world.

521
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: I mean, it's basically I think it's only second only

522
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: the coffee, maybe an alcohol. There's something incredibly compelling about it.

523
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: People enjoy the drug effect of nicotine, and if you

524
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: can turn nicotine into something that's barely more problematic or

525
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: dangerous for people than coffee, why not. Why shouldn't we

526
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: look forward to a world in which nicotine is sold

527
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: in forms that are you know, safer than alcohol and

528
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: almost as safe as coffee. It's just part of uman

529
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: existence and human pleasure and human functioning. What's wrong with that?

530
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: Why not have that as your objective? Is it just

531
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: that you can't say it because it's not to say it? Well, Look,

532
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: nicotine is addictive, okay, but the only form of addictiveness,

533
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: as you're right, and the set of nicotine is through

534
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: cigarettes that has all the toxic Now, people do not

535
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: use nicotine products just for nicotine. They use them for

536
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: the taste, They use them for the ritual, the same

537
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: way you know, delivering an alcohol peel to people is

538
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: not going to be as pleasurable as a glass of wine,

539
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: I mean for the ones that consume wine. Okay, So

540
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: there are many elements in the whole experience of a

541
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: smoker that you cannot dissociate entirely. Yes, we can imagine

542
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: a world where we have demonstrated that needs to be

543
00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: too demonstrated, that say, a nicotine pouch used with the

544
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: right moderation, probably cause there's no disease, no premature deaths,

545
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: and then we will have the debate whether these products

546
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: can be made available in a different regulatory basis or not.

547
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: But these products have to remain regulated as alcohol is

548
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: regulated and so on. Now, the task we have is

549
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: not to recruit new people. The task we have is

550
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 1: to convince the existing smokers to move to this product.

551
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: There will be people who start with nicotin products, and

552
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: I think from a public health perspective, if they start,

553
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: the best thing is that they will never start, and

554
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 1: that is our advice. But if they start, they started

555
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: with products that reduced there is from day one, not

556
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: after thirty years. So I think we need to go

557
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: step by step here in the public health debate, because

558
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: we still have disagreement or whether for smokers that smoke

559
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: for thirty years we make new products available. Once we

560
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: resolved that debate, we can discuss about nicotine ten years

561
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: down the line. Okay, that's but what about tetral medical

562
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: value of nicotine? I mean, you know, you read some

563
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: reports that how may be helpful, visit the Parkinson's, the Alzheimer's.

564
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: I mean, why isn't there more scientific research on this front?

565
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: And can you envision nicotine becoming a widely prescribed medical

566
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: substance for all sorts of ills are and are you

567
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: doing that kind of research? Clearly in the literature, there

568
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: are some diseases you you just named them sterotypicalities Arkinson's

569
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: where there's less prevalence and most people with nicotine. And

570
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: we're doing some research in this area. Okay, but that

571
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: is a limited number of diseases. Uh, that where nicotine

572
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: or nicotine derivatives can be a therapeutical molecule. Okay, that's

573
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: a medical product. So um, the problem we're facing today is, yes,

574
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,280
Speaker 1: there are certain uses of nicotine that could be therapeutical

575
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: and have a positive effect. But as you said previously,

576
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: the problem today is that we move the debate that

577
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: nicotine is the cause of disease, and I think we

578
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: need to clarify that debate. You said it yourself, isn't

579
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 1: that nicotine and the FDA said it, Yes, it's addictive,

580
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: but there's probably not certainly not the primary cause of disease.

581
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: Let's just finish up with a few personal questions here. Andrea,

582
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you and I are I think

583
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: we're born in the same year in nineteen fifty seven,

584
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: but we've had very different you know, life trajectories. And

585
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: I'm curious. You know, you started off as an engineer,

586
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: you know, working on robotics, and then you left at

587
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 1: age to join Philip Morris. And I'm curious when you

588
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: made that decision back in the eighties to join a

589
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: tobacco company. Did you have the qualms about going to

590
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: work for big tobacco? Did you take some ship from

591
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: your friends or family for doing that. We're already a smoker.

592
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: I mean, how did you think about it back then? Well,

593
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: you know, actually yeah, I started as an electrical engineer.

594
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: Then one day it took the decision to take a

595
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: Master in Business administration and changed my career orientation. And

596
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: actually joining Philip Morris was purely accident. I had to

597
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: go and do my military service in Greece after my MBA.

598
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 1: The a lot change that didn't have to do, uh,

599
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: and I looked for something last minute and I had

600
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: some of us actually for the anecdote from companies like Motorola,

601
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: let pick Western Young and but here comes to this

602
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 1: company that offers me not an engineering related job to

603
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: some degree, but you know, a job in business development

604
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: and planning and finance, which over the areas I really

605
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: wanted to learn. So I didn't have any issue with cigarettes.

606
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: Did you smoke come from I used to smoke cigars

607
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: then much more, Uh, but you know I come from Greece.

608
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 1: At that point in time, there was not so much,

609
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: you know, stigma on cigarettes. Yes, some friends asked me,

610
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: why you join an industry that will disappear in the

611
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: next ten years. Actually it never happened, but they didn't

612
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: you're joining it? I mean they didn't. Actually, why are

613
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: you joining an industry where you know, have the people

614
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: use it are going to die? And you didn't get

615
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,919
Speaker 1: that kind of flak at you can not really? Yeah,

616
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: I mean, look, the people have the choice and they

617
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: can decide whether they smoke or not. It's a bit

618
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: more complex than that, as we learn in reality, But

619
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: there was you know, okay eighty five Now, okay, it's

620
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: it's so many years ago. But also, when you enter

621
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: a company, you realize that many of the things that

622
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: the industry was accused were not real. Some of the

623
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: things could have been done better, undeniable in the past.

624
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: But that also gives you an opportunity to change things

625
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: if you are within a company, and you know, once

626
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: I became a bit more senior, in the company. It

627
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: was rather obvious to being many others that the best

628
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: contribution we can make is to change the product. And

629
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: that's precisely what what we have done. The whole thing

630
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: about harm aduction is it's something that kind of hits

631
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: you or you began to appreciate a late nineties or

632
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: early two thousand's Was there an aha moment for you

633
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: to say we got to move in this direction? Was

634
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 1: simply the fact the new technologies were emerging that made

635
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: it possible. It's a combination of all that. It's uh,

636
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: it was clearly you know, it was mid nineties. While

637
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: I was in a position and many others of my generation,

638
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: we always said, look, it's a combustion that is the problem.

639
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: So we have the ability to change the product. Yes,

640
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: the technology was not there yet, there was some first

641
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: embryance of technology. Then, Philip Morris says, you know, it

642
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: was the first company to publicly recognize that cigarettes are

643
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: addictive in post disease. Once you recognize the impacts of

644
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: your product, that's the first step to innovate against the product.

645
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: I mean that applies to food, to applies to energy.

646
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: The moment you say my product causes impacts, and many

647
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 1: do in this plan on this planet. Then the next

648
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 1: step is, okay, let's move it. And that gives you

649
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: every reason tell your R and D that now is

650
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 1: the time to do it in the technologist game, and

651
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: we are lucky enough to have the products. Okay, but

652
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 1: you need determination to do this, and you need also

653
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: the acceptance of the impacts of your product. And that's

654
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: something that too many CEOs. Is one thing I've learned

655
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: that my advice, recognize the impacts of your product, whether

656
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: you're in food, whether you're in whatever industry, because then

657
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: you can tell you our and day we can do better,

658
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 1: and then you have innovation that reduce the impacts of

659
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 1: the products, which we oddly need on Earth. Let's take

660
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: a break here and go to an ad oftentimes. If

661
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you look at the big auto companies, right,

662
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: I mean, they just kept making the gasoline power cars

663
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: forever and ever. They would look at electrical stuff, but

664
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: they weren't pushing it hard. Until you get a Tesla

665
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: coming along, and you know that's outside that basically wants

666
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 1: to take down the big auto companies. And then they

667
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 1: have competition from outside. And I wonder in terms of

668
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: big tobacco. I mean there's a sense of yeah, we

669
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 1: can do this, we'll do it our own pace, will

670
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: make the transition slowly. But that was probably missing to

671
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: some extent. Are there really the Tesla equivalents? I mean,

672
00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: Jewel was that until Altria brought a third of them? Right? Um?

673
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: You know you have small companies like Enjoy that are

674
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: pure plays on the East cigarettes. Um, but sometimes I wonder,

675
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: you know, what you real actually really need to get

676
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 1: you guys, not just pm I, but the other companies

677
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: to really move faster is a company that was totally independent,

678
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: had no commitment to cigarettes, that essentially wanted to take

679
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: you guys out as competition, and that that's what's missing. Well, actually,

680
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 1: I think who were the ones who disrupted this industry?

681
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: Because we started the process of developing these products well

682
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: before June. It was even a thought. Okay, So we

683
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: started in two thousand and four to thousand five. H

684
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: we build the R and D from zero. We had

685
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: to hire people from the outside. Only joined this company,

686
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: you know, because they believe these products have an important

687
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,720
Speaker 1: role to play in public health. They most came from Karma,

688
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: So we created the infrastructure to do this and as

689
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: of two thousand and eight nine we started really pushing

690
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 1: this products. Was no jewel or the more evapor products,

691
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: but vapor products we developed. Also, we knew that for

692
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: existing smokers immediately they will have less ability to convert

693
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: them fully than heat the tobacco products, not because of

694
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: the nicotine, but also because of the taste characteristics that

695
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: are important for the smoke. So I think we decided

696
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: to disrupt our own industry on our own because also

697
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: my thought and the thought of the senior executives on

698
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,399
Speaker 1: the board is if we don't do it, somebody else

699
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: will do it. Okay, So we did it, and I

700
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: think we opened the way for other companies to do

701
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: the same. And you see much more products now than before.

702
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: You guys, for a long time, you know, you have

703
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: the network, distribution trains, the production, all that sort of

704
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 1: stuff that made the big tobacco companies remain dominant for

705
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: so long. Once you shift away from combustibles into these

706
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: other types of devices, isn't there the potential from great

707
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: a competition from companies that have not previously been involved

708
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 1: in the tobacco nicotine field. Absolutely there is, and clearly

709
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: for us is to remain at the forefront of the

710
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: technological development and consumer service. I mean, we learned a

711
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 1: lot with these new products. Because they have electronics. You

712
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 1: need a completely different consumer journey. You need to open

713
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: your own stores. You need to hand hold the people

714
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 1: who buy your product for weeks and come back often

715
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: to them so they don't fall back to cigarettes. It's

716
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,959
Speaker 1: very easy to develop a product convincing, you know, doing

717
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: the scientific assessment and convincing people to use it. It

718
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: takes some knowledge in some science. And for as long

719
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: as you're at the forefront, you know, you remain competitive.

720
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 1: You know, many people can do search engines like Google. Okay,

721
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: it's not difficult to do a surgeon doing it well

722
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: in every aspect. It takes a lot of note and

723
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 1: I hope we have accumulated that knowledge and could continue

724
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: building it every day, so we remain at the fall front.

725
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: That's the ambition, right, Okay. And you say you're diversifying

726
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: other industries and healing devices and stuff like this. I

727
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: saw that you some years ago brought a little or

728
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: brought into a smallest Raeli company, Sick Medical, which is

729
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: developing a medical cannabis in healer. And I'm looking at

730
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 1: the fact that like Altria. You know, it's already investing

731
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: pretty substantially into alcohol deer companies investing into marijuana companies

732
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,760
Speaker 1: in Canada. What about p M. I are you guys

733
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: looking at the at the whole cannabis field. Have you

734
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: made any significant investments? And if not, why not? Yeah, Look,

735
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: we've been looking at this and uh, I've got this

736
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: question a number of times. So there are too if

737
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: we look into the future, not the current situation. That

738
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 1: is a situation in flux with everybody making claims about

739
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: cannabies without any clinical, clinical, substantial proof. I mean, we

740
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,479
Speaker 1: made a commitment to be science based company, so we're

741
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 1: not going out there and make, you know, promises to

742
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: consumers that are not true. And we need to warn

743
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: the consumers about this product, what the products are. And

744
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: I'm not and that requires scientific analysis and research cannot

745
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: be done just fly by night. So I gotta ask

746
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:27,439
Speaker 1: you this. I mean, you grew up in Grease, which

747
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: has a long tradition of cannabises. Have you smoked marijuana?

748
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 1: Have you enjoyed it? Do you Greece has a tradition

749
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: of cannabis. Oh not not really, And I have to

750
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: tell you I've never I have never smoked. Uh, so

751
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,879
Speaker 1: I'm not I don't have any expertise in this every

752
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: you know, but it's practically legal and Switzerland any time

753
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: in America, I'm happy to share a joint with you.

754
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 1: I think you probably you know, you know, what is

755
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 1: it important? Because I think about I've never liked cigarettes personally, um,

756
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: but you know, in some places, whether in Europe or

757
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: the US, people typically mix the hash or sometimes marijuana

758
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 1: with cigarettes, right, And so I think it is important

759
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: down the road that even though there's a consumer market

760
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 1: for combining the two products, that there has to be

761
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 1: some commitment that there will never be a marketing of

762
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: cannabis combined with nicotine. I mean, is that something that

763
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: you commit to down the road or you think the

764
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: industry will commit to. Well, I'm not, I'm not an

765
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: expert in this domain, but I think anhalation of something

766
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,320
Speaker 1: you burn is the worst form of delivering any substance.

767
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: So I wouldn't recommend to anybody to burn something in

768
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: order to deliver the substance. That's exactly what we're trying

769
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: to move away. And so yes, I can make that

770
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: commitment any time you want to not deliver when it

771
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: comes to the harmy when it comes to the orals

772
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: or the noncombustibles. I mean, and the thing I do

773
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: worry about is it's pretty clear for people who's mukmarro

774
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: waned occasionally that even smoking it, because it's you consume

775
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: so little, it doesn't seem to present many harms to health,

776
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 1: and it's sometimes the most efficient way to take it

777
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: into your into your body. But the concern is if

778
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: some of the noncombustible start to get mixed with cannabis

779
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,439
Speaker 1: in various forms, because then you can bind the sort

780
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: of addictive potential of nicotine with a psychoactive, you know,

781
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: appeal of of cannabis, and that could potentially be a

782
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,879
Speaker 1: new public health problem that I that I do worry about. Okay,

783
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: so my last two questions quickly on one personal one bigger.

784
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: On the personal level, I mean, you spent you know,

785
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: virtually your entire adult life of Philip Moore as international.

786
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: You know you've been a huge success there. When you

787
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,720
Speaker 1: look back, what do you regard as your greatest accomplishment

788
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,399
Speaker 1: and what do you regard as your greatest failure disappointment.

789
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 1: I still believe my biggest accomplishment is the development of

790
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: commercialization of this product, the smoke free products, And I

791
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: think that's probably something I can be proud of. Failures

792
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 1: I can enumerate a lot if we stay in this domain.

793
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 1: You know why we have not done it earlier, why

794
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 1: we've not done it faster. Um. You know, I learned

795
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 1: one thing in managing companies that if you have to

796
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: do something, do it now rather than wait beat. Concerning

797
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: products or people, I didn't wait much, but probably should

798
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 1: have pushed more. Having said that, I think I'm happy

799
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 1: that we have this products, a bit disappointed that we

800
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 1: don't still have the full backing of the public health

801
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 1: community and regulators. That's something that you know, I will

802
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 1: continue working on and that the whole management team is

803
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,479
Speaker 1: continue working on. And picture, I mean, do you think

804
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: that this harm reduction future is inevitable, that this transition

805
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: from combustibles to nonsmokables is inevitable? I hope so, and

806
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 1: I think so. I think it's inevitable because existing smokers

807
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: will be increasingly convinced to switch. Obviously, the most difficult

808
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: group is the older people and lower socio economic strata.

809
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 1: There you need a bit more positive approach from government

810
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: to convince them but the encouraging thing also is that

811
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 1: less young people use cigarette or start with cigarettes. So

812
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: I think a world without cigarettes it's perfectly visible. At

813
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: least I hope we're gonna see it. Not during my

814
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: stay in Philip Morris, because it's not good to be

815
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: that long anymore, but definitely I'm sure I'm going to

816
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: see it during my lifetime. I have to say, I

817
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 1: think I'm skeptic, you know. I think that if you

818
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 1: look at how appealing cigarettes has been for so long,

819
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: that we can see a major transition to the nonsmokables,

820
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: but that there's going to still remain, you know, five

821
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: percent of the world or whatever that just insists on

822
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,439
Speaker 1: taking it in that form, And if we ultimately move

823
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: towards ultimate prohibition, we're going to see a vast black market,

824
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 1: just like we've seen with heroin, cocaine, f amphetamine and cannabis.

825
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 1: And they're talking about the future of a smoke free

826
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 1: world is utopian, and sometimes they worry almost dangerous, because

827
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: it may result in US ultimately embracing the sort of

828
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 1: criminalizations and criminal justice prohibitions that generated the horrific global

829
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: drug war we've had for many decades. I understand what

830
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 1: you say. Look, I don't think my arm twisting only

831
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: you're going to achieve this. It has to become organic. Uh.

832
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: And the more companies work on things and convinced consumers,

833
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: the less cigarettes are fashionable and better products for the

834
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: ones as you said that one use nicotine and taste

835
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: uh m hm, becomes the the better way of doing it,

836
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: the most accepted way of doing it. I don't think

837
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: we're an un twisting situation. What at an organic acceptance

838
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: that these products are better now. If you ask me

839
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 1: ten years around the world, they will be still security. Yes,

840
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 1: they will be because there will be smokers that you

841
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 1: will never convince not to smoke. But if you ask

842
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: me twenty years, maybe we will be there. Yeah. Sometimes

843
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,240
Speaker 1: think about I think about all the governments that's signed

844
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: onto prohibiting cannabis decades agoing there didn't even know what

845
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:40,240
Speaker 1: it was, and now they have very substantial cannabis using populations.

846
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 1: I think there's an ebb and flowing consumer taste and

847
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: that people inevitably come back to these things. But listen,

848
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for taking the time to

849
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 1: talk with me. I really appreciate this frank conversation. I

850
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,840
Speaker 1: wish you, you know, all the best luck in making

851
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: this transition out of combustibles and into the smoke free

852
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 1: products as soon as possible. So thank you for the

853
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 1: leadership you provided at the industry level in this and

854
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 1: I hope it can happen even quicker than our opponents

855
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: to harm reduction think is possible. Thank you anything, thank

856
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: you for your time, and thank you for giving me

857
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: the opportunity as well, and I hope we'll talk against.

858
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it,

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00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 1: or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts

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00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear

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00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories,

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00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one

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Speaker 1: eight three three seven seven nine sixty that's eight three

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Speaker 1: three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive

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Speaker 1: at protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at

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Speaker 1: Ethan natal May. You can also find contact information in

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Speaker 1: our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart

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Speaker 1: Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman's

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Speaker 1: produced by Noam Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers

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Speaker 1: are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky

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00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 1: from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My

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00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, and me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by

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Speaker 1: Ari Blucien and a special thanks to A Brio s F.

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Speaker 1: Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BP. Next week we'll be talking

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Speaker 1: about the Mary Pranksters, the Grateful Dead, and the psychedelics

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00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 1: revolution of the nineteen sixties with Mountain Girl Garcia. These

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00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: were nice parties, you know, where we looked after people.

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Speaker 1: We made sure people didn't get lost on the way

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Speaker 1: to the parking lot. The whole point was to introduce

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Speaker 1: people to a rather weak solution of LSD in these

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Speaker 1: jugs of kool aid, and so they wouldn't get they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't get overload it. But if that turned out to

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Speaker 1: be super fun, subscribe to Cycoactive now see it, don't

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Speaker 1: miss it.