1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 2: I feel like it's going to be weird to do 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: an entro, but like it's the Money Stuff podcast. We're 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 2: here today with I think our second episode with a guest. 5 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 3: Yes, two guests, Our second and third guests. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: Second and third guests. They are Ryan Patch and John 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: Seal of the Great Gotham Challenge, two creators of puzzle hunts. Welcome. 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: That's about all you need to say. We make puzzle hunts. 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 2: We got in touch because I am a degenerate puzzle 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: hunter in my way, and Ryan and John are taking 11 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 2: over or sort of have taken over the big financial 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: industry puzzle hunt that I have done occasionally, which is 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: sometimes called Compass but is mostly called Midnight Madness and 14 00:00:55,240 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 2: runs overnight this year in October. So welcome and Ryan, 15 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: thank you. 16 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 4: Happy to be here. 17 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: Coming soon to New York City street near you. 18 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:10,199 Speaker 2: This is a podcast probably about money stuff related to money. 19 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 3: That's what we build it as. 20 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 2: It's not always true, but that's kind of what we say. 21 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: And it has a listenership that includes a lot of 22 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: financial industry and tech industry people, and the overlap of 23 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 2: that audience with people who do puzzle hunts is meaningful, 24 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 2: but it's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. 25 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 2: And so I kind of want to explain what a 26 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: puzzle hunt is. And I feel like you guys might 27 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 2: say that you're something other than puzzle hunt guys exactly, 28 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 2: But I really want to explain what puzzles are. So 29 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 2: can I prompt you with that? 30 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 4: I think sometime in the nineties, maybe before the Mit 31 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 4: mystery un started, I get the sense that that was 32 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 4: the beginning of the industry that we are weirdly a 33 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 4: part of, largely by accident, I would say, because when 34 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 4: Ryan and I decided to start sinning puzzle hunts, we 35 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 4: weren't aware of any of the existing ones. We thought 36 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 4: we were making something that no one had ever heard 37 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 4: of before. A puzzle hunt in definition doesn't have to 38 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 4: be location based, but in our case, and in many cases, 39 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 4: it's a location based hunt in which people travel from 40 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 4: place to place solve a complex puzzle. And by puzzle, 41 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 4: I don't mean jigsaw puzzle, but they receive a series 42 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 4: of clues and pieces of information that have to be 43 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 4: combined in some way and thought of laterally in order 44 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 4: to yield a solution. And that solution will often take 45 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 4: them to a new place and they'll kind of repeat 46 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 4: that process. Maybe people are familiar with the Amazing Race, 47 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 4: combining elements of something like the Amazing Race with elements 48 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 4: of an escape room and all into a competition in 49 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 4: which people are competing against each other most of the 50 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 4: time in small teams to prove their metal and arrive 51 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 4: at the end first or with the highest standing that 52 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 4: they can. 53 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 2: I became aware of puzzle hunts before I became aware 54 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: of escape rooms, And I don't know if that's like 55 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: the actual chronology in the world where like people and. 56 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 3: My experience, Yeah, well, puzzle. 57 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: Hunts are pretty niche, but. 58 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: The escape rooms came after puzzle hunts. 59 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I was like that they sort of 60 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: grew out of the puzzle hunt idea and like you 61 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 2: could put an escape room in a place and sell 62 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 2: it to people every day rather than do it once 63 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: a year. 64 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: And the escape rooms are definitely a little more consumer oriented, 65 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: whereas a puzzle hunt you have to be a certain 66 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: glutton for punishment or at least intellectual stimula. You know, 67 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: escape rooms are great because you know, at the end 68 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: of sixty minutes you're done whereas a puzzle hunt, if 69 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: you fail, you're floundering in the middle of some urban 70 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: landscape trying to figure out where to go. 71 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: Next at three am. Often. 72 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 4: But you know, what I would say is that I 73 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 4: think escape rooms and puzzle hunts share an origin story 74 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 4: I would guess, which is that it's people saying, what 75 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 4: if we could be in a video game in real life. 76 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 4: So it's kind of taking this idea of a quest 77 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 4: and something to be solved and creating a real life 78 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 4: experience around that, right. 79 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 80 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 3: What differentiates a puzzle hunt from a scavenger hunt or 81 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 3: is that just a meaningless distinction? 82 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: Is the puzzles absolutely you get. 83 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 3: Clues and you have to think critically, and scavenger hunts. 84 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: There's definitely a blurry line between the two. But I 85 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: think that the puzzle hunts are often once you arrive 86 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: at a location, you're not just there to find something. 87 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: You're there to solve a complex situation. And there's pen 88 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: and paper puzzle hunts where you just like go to 89 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: a location and you're given a few pieces of paper 90 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: and they're all kind of these very crossworthy or language 91 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: based or math based puzzles that you wind up solving 92 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: and then they result to a keyword or often the 93 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: next location that you're going to, and then you go 94 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: to the next location, you get handed in another set 95 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,799 Speaker 1: of papers, so there's always some very specific activity. Now, 96 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: we came kind of this from more the immersion angle. 97 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: We kind of asked ourselves the question to look like 98 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: if people felt like they were in a movie, and 99 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: then we started creating these quests and then we realized, well, 100 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: to kind of unlock the door that kind of lets 101 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: you into the next thing, there needs to be a puzzle. 102 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: And so we kind of came at it from a 103 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: little more of an angle saying, well, we need to 104 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: have a key for that door, we need to have 105 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: a password for that door, and started slowly integrating puzzles. 106 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: So we kind of backed into the puzzle hunt community 107 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: from more of like an immersive angle, whereas the puzzle 108 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: hunt community has then kind of been pulled a little 109 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: more into the immersive community through escape rooms, through immersive theater. 110 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: And then you have, yeah, the scavenger hunt community, which 111 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: is kind of geocaching adjacent and just making hunts for 112 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: your ten year old kids adjacent, and scavenger Hunt the 113 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: worst version of a scavenger hunt is like take pictures 114 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: of five out of state license plates, or like you know, 115 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: get a photo of a person with a beard, and 116 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: is kind of our guiding light that we move away from. 117 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 4: We draw a distinction in our world between puzzles and tasks, 118 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 4: and a puzzle is it requires some sort of lateral thinking, 119 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 4: and a task is just an action that you complete. 120 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 4: So I think a lot of scavenger hunts are task 121 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 4: based versus a puzzle requires you to use your brain 122 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 4: in a different way. 123 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 2: Do you have like a classic puzzle or like a 124 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: form of puzzle, or a way to describe more concretely 125 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: what the puzzles and puzzle hunts are, because like to 126 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: me and I have not I don't think done your 127 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: challenges that I think I did Midnight Matter Compass that 128 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: might have been partly your doing. And I have a sense, 129 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: like an inarticulate sense of what puzzle hunt puzzles feel 130 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 2: like you know, I've done I don't know, four or 131 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: five puzzle hunts and an escape room or two. But like, 132 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: how do you think about puzzles? And like what is 133 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: a puzzle? And like what kinds of things are puzzles? 134 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 2: Could you give a puzzle that we can talk about 135 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 2: on a podcast. 136 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 4: Sure, I think every puzzle hunt has its own tradition 137 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 4: of how it defines a puzzle. And Ryan and I 138 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 4: are the first people to be in charge of the 139 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 4: Midnight Madness tradition, kind of coming from the outside, not 140 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 4: having played and not being from the finance industry. So 141 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 4: we had to do our homework and spend a lot 142 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 4: of time learning what's a puzzle by the definition of 143 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 4: Midnight Madness. And one thing that we identified is each 144 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 4: one should involve a logical leap, so there's typically a 145 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 4: mental connection that you make between two different types of information. 146 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 4: So an example of a puzzle that I think is 147 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 4: a good illustration of this from an event that we 148 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 4: did a few years ago, was designed by our friend 149 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 4: Josh Dabner, and it's a puzzle in which you receive 150 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 4: a rap sheet that looks like a police description of 151 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 4: several perpetrators of criminals, and each one has a description 152 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 4: and then picture of what looks like a fingerprint for 153 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 4: each one, but you use clues in the descriptions, and 154 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 4: you use clues of what the visual of the fingerprint 155 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 4: looks like to act you make a connection that you're 156 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 4: not looking at fingerprints, You're looking at topographical maps of mountains, 157 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 4: and each one you discover as you kind of read 158 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 4: through the text and look for words that might seem 159 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 4: out of place and kind of evidence that the descriptions 160 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 4: are not quite fitting well to like how a policeman 161 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 4: might describe a criminal. To recognize that each of the 162 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 4: seven is representing the seven highest peaks on each continent. 163 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 4: And so then you use that information to go back 164 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 4: to the first descriptions, and in there you work with 165 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 4: the information. You have to yield a final solution, which 166 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 4: is a key word. But in order to do that, 167 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 4: you have to be able to make this mental leap 168 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 4: and recognize that one thing is actually representing another. 169 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 3: How do you make them difficult without being infuriating? Because 170 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 3: this is something different. But Bloomberg has a weekly quiz quiz. 171 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 3: Go Matt, you've played it, you've written. I used to 172 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 3: be the cure of the quiz, and one of the 173 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 3: metrics on which I judged myself was by how many 174 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 3: people who started the quiz completed the quiz. And there 175 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 3: was like this fine balance I had to find between 176 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 3: making it challenging but not making it annoying. So how 177 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 3: do you find that balance when you're putting together puzzles 178 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 3: and make sure that people basically don't rage quit. 179 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 4: Yes, you're our sister in pain, I see. 180 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: I think that's the number one skill of a good 181 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: puzzle creator. I think that right there is the magic 182 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: sauce is figuring out something that's just hard enough that 183 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: makes people really feel like they've gone on a journey 184 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 1: and they were just about to quit, but then they 185 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: had that spark of inspiration that turned it all around 186 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: for them, and then everything fell into place. And then 187 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: looking back on it, it's like, of course that was 188 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: the answer. It could never have not been that answer, 189 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: and bringing people on that journey and allowing them to 190 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: go on that journey themselves, and then by the end 191 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: of it having that I heard it recently described as 192 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: I think secondhand fun or second degree fun, where it's 193 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: it sucked in the moment, but when you look back 194 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: on it, it's a pleasureful thing. And so creating that 195 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: moment it's very difficult, and we've struggled with it. And 196 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: you know, we created the Great Gotham Challenge. I created 197 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: the first one by myself. John was a participant, This 198 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: is how we started working together, and no one finished it. 199 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: Everyone raged quick. It was in two thousand and nine. 200 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: The stock market had crashed. I just graduated college and 201 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: couldn't get a job, and so me and another friend 202 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: created this and it was supposed to be like a 203 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: four hour thing. Everyone just texted us after our four 204 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: and it like I am a quarter of the way through, 205 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: Please put a bullet in my head. And so it's 206 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: just like, okay, come to the finish line. But anyways, 207 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: we've gotten better. We've been doing this for about eleven years. 208 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: And a lot of it is play testing, Like we 209 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: have a community of people. They just play test our 210 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: puzzles and they time themselves and we make sure we 211 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,599 Speaker 1: know how long a puzzle should take and what the 212 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: right deviation is. And it's also a lot of argument, 213 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: like we've just got a people that we really trust 214 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: and who have done a lot of these things, and 215 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: someone says this is way too hard, this is way 216 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 1: too easy, and we just go twelve rounds until we 217 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: find something that we all agree on and we trust 218 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: each other. So part of it's not working in a vacuum, 219 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: and part of it's just a lot of experience and 220 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: part of its playtesting. John and I are creative by nature, 221 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: and we brought in an operations person to help run 222 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: our company named Teresa, who's brilliant and has saved our 223 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: company many times. But one of the things she instigated 224 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: is no, we play test things. We play test things thoroughly. 225 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: I think another part of the answer to Katie's question 226 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: is is when I've done puzzle hunts, there's some sort 227 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: of like hint mechanism where you can, like without fully 228 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 2: giving up, you can give up a little and get 229 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 2: some sort of help like can you talking about how 230 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 2: do you think about that? 231 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's interesting because we've seen this done different ways, 232 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: and in the Midnight Madness puzzle hunt that we stage 233 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: every other year for the finance industry, there's kind of 234 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: a bespoke, personalized what's called game controller who meters out hints. 235 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: It's like your personal tormentor. 236 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: Right right exactly. And this is something very unique about 237 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Vibe is that the game controllers are 238 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: known to be a little malicious and a little kount 239 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: of Because we've been kind of apprenticing with the current 240 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: creators for the last four years and we've taken it 241 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: over this year, and so we've watched them and tried 242 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: to learn, and we've been like, this seems weird, this 243 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: seems mean, and they're like, oh no, it's what people want, 244 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: Like it's the it's what the players want. That's done 245 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: in a very like bespoke, handcrafted concierge way, both the 246 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: hinting and the tormenting, Whereas like on our Great Gotham 247 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 1: Challenge branded puzzle hunts that we do, there's kind of 248 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: a unified, pre canned hint system that you know, when 249 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: you feel like you're at a dead end, you can 250 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: take a hint and there's a certain time penalty, and 251 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: we've introduced a fun gamified mechanic where the longer you're 252 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: on a puzzle, the less penalty time you get. And so, yeah, 253 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: there absolutely needs to be a hint system, and that's 254 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: absolutely a way that you keep people within the same universe. 255 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: If there was no hint system, then you'd see devations 256 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: of two hundred percent on times. 257 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: My experience of like Compass or Midnight Matis is like 258 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 2: if you're like getting on the subway to go to 259 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: the wrong burrow, your game control will be like hold 260 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: on right, Yeah, there's some amount of like, don't do 261 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 2: something really stupid, and. 262 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: That's the Yeah, that's that's the designer's job is to, yeah, 263 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: figuring out how to let people fail enough that they 264 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: go through those peaks and valleys of emotions, but not 265 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 1: letting them fail so much that they're just destroyed. 266 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. You want to feel like you can fail so 267 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: that when you succeed, you feel good about it. 268 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 3: Right. 269 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: Can we talk about Midnight madnas. I've written about having 270 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: done one or two Compass on Switch. My understanding is 271 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 2: that like at some point a kind of Goldman Sachs 272 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 2: affiliated group of Wall Street people started a Midnight Madness 273 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 2: puzzle hunt, possibly named after a movie of the same name, 274 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 2: and it was called Midnight Madness because it started I 275 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 2: don't know four pm and went until two pm the 276 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: next day. 277 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: Everything you've heard is correct, yes, yeah. 278 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: And it was run by I think Alicia we wasel 279 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: at Goldman and then it became so overwhelming that my 280 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 2: understanding was like the winners got to run it the 281 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: next time, and I know, like Colin Tykel ran it 282 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 2: for a while, and that is like, in my understanding, 283 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 2: the premiere like Wall Street Puzzle Hunt and all of 284 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: the teams are like eight Goldman teams and six Chain 285 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: Street teams. Is that basically correct? 286 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 4: Most of that's correct. Alisha designed it for I think 287 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 4: maybe a decade or a little less, and at some 288 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 4: point I think he decided it was too much for 289 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 4: him to continue and just decided, I can't keep doing this. 290 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 4: I need to quit. And the team that won the 291 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 4: year that he called his final year decided that they 292 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 4: loved the game too much to let it die, so 293 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 4: they said, we'll take over. We'll put it under a 294 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 4: different name so that people recognize that it's under new management. 295 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 4: They ran it for several years, and then they decided, 296 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 4: we can't keep doing this. It's destroying our lives and 297 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 4: our relationships because. 298 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: All of these people have like real jobs in the 299 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 2: financial industry and also extracurricularly designed these insane all night 300 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:31,239 Speaker 2: puzzle hunts. 301 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: As opposed to us who have fake jobs in the 302 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: financial industry. Yes, that's correct. Now we have real jobs 303 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: in puzzle hunts. 304 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So this is your job, it's not their job. 305 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: Is a little more sustainable for us, but yes, like, 306 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: I don't know how they could possibly do it, because 307 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: this is my full time job. It already is so 308 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: hard for me. I can't imagine working at a hedge 309 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: fund while simultaneously doing this. 310 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: So you guys are professional puzzle hunt makers and they 311 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: are professional headsphund matters. As you look at their work, 312 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: what do you think were they good at it? If 313 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 2: you have like the regular puzzle HNK community and then 314 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 2: you have like the headshund guys, is there a different 315 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: style or mindset. 316 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's something that Ryan and I were just discussing. Actually, 317 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 4: there are things that are unique to it. There are 318 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 4: ways that maybe we look at things a bit differently. 319 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 4: For instance, talking about hints, Ryan and I, as puzzle 320 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 4: of designers, we kind of believe that a really well 321 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 4: designed puzzle should be able to be completed by a 322 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 4: good puzzler without needing to be hinted in any way, 323 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 4: Whereas I think they're coming from a world in which 324 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 4: they feel like if it's not hard enough to require 325 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 4: someone to take hints, then it's not hard enough. So 326 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 4: that's been an adjustment I think for us to kind 327 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 4: of recognize. 328 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: We're a little more bread crumb, that leap of logic 329 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: in a way that like at the end of a 330 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: good murder mystery, you look back and you're like, oh, 331 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: the hints were always there that it was the butler, 332 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: and so we're a little more on that end versus Yeah, 333 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: they're more like, you have to make this leap of 334 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: logic with no prior red crumb. 335 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 2: I'm with you. I've had some Midnight Madness experiences where 336 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 2: you're like, you get the hnt in your No one 337 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: would have gotten that. 338 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. 339 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 4: Another big distinction though that we've come to terms with 340 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 4: though that I think is really interesting and says a lot. 341 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 4: And we didn't believe this to be true when we started, 342 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 4: but I think we've come around to the idea that 343 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 4: the people who are attracted to this midnight Madness game 344 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 4: who come from Wall Street, they do crave I hesitate 345 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 4: to use the word glutton for punishment, but they they 346 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 4: do crave a certain amount of intensity and some would 347 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 4: even say torture that I think was surprising to us. 348 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, just the fact that it is sort 349 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: of runs overnight is right cruel in a way. 350 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,719 Speaker 3: It's like endurance athletics, but with your mind and your body. 351 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 2: Totally. Yeah, you have a day job running puzzle hunts 352 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,719 Speaker 2: under your own brand, and like puzzle hunt activity is 353 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 2: for corporate clients. Right, My sense is that a lot 354 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 2: of your clients are also in the financial industry, and 355 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 2: like puzzle hunting and finance overlap a lot. Is that right? 356 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: Yes, you're onto us. We didn't mean to do it 357 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: that way, but the market found us. Yeah. 358 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: What do you think it is about? Like financial people 359 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 2: a puzzle hunts? Like where do they go together? 360 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 4: Several things? One is, I think the finance industry and 361 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 4: the tech industry have become really closely intertwined. And as 362 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 4: I said, the tradition of the MIT mystery hunt. A 363 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 4: lot of these people that come from Cambridge end up 364 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 4: in New York, end up doing finance related jobs, and 365 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 4: so they've crafted a taste for this type of thing 366 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:43,959 Speaker 4: already earlier in life. 367 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: Does every do the mystery hunting? 368 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 4: I don't think everyone does it, and a lot of 369 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 4: people who do it are also not currently at MIT. 370 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 2: I've been invited on team. Is that it seemed like 371 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 2: more trouble than I was worth. 372 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean that's like a three day event 373 00:18:58,400 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 4: or a four day event. 374 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 2: And one hundred people and you can do it rightly. 375 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:03,719 Speaker 2: It just seems like a lot. 376 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 4: It is a lot. You're not wrong. 377 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: About our COO. Teresa participated this last year and had 378 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: a fantastic time and we're going to try to go 379 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: next year. And she went there on a team, and 380 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: it's like, how fun can like being holed up in 381 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: a hotel room solving puzzles, you know, But it really 382 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: seems like the winning teams are it's not just about 383 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: puzzle solving acumen, but about organization of brain power. You know, 384 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: how do you effectively deploy one hundred people to effectively 385 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: manage problems and contribute and make these lateral leaps. And 386 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: it seems like that's the key to the MIT Mystery Hunt, 387 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: which is I think, such an interesting social management problem. 388 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was reading a Courts article from twenty thirteen. 389 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 3: I think it was because Midnight Madness went on a 390 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 3: bit of a hiatus and then it came back right 391 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 3: And the article is talking about how originally the thinking, 392 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 3: you know, among the Goldmen Sacks teams who participated, was 393 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 3: that they wanted to stack their teams with quants. They 394 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 3: just wanted a lot of big brains. But the team 395 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 3: that ended up winning was a group that worked together. 396 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 3: I think they were client facing, and they shocked their 397 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 3: winning up too, just we know how to work together. 398 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 3: We don't necessarily have the smartest guy in the room, 399 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 3: but we all know how to manage together. 400 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and also like if it's all quants, like you 401 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: want different kinds of intelligence too, like in solving the 402 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 2: puzzles as well as in creating the puzzle, like you know, 403 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 2: as I was thinking about like why the financial industry 404 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 2: likes puzzle hunts, I mean I was thinking, like teamwork 405 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 2: is always pretty heavily emphasized. He like interviewed a financial firm, 406 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 2: and like the idea of like getting different types of 407 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 2: intelligence together and trying to delegate responsibility and brandstorm together 408 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 2: does seem like useful in the job. And then it 409 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 2: hadn't even occurred to me that, like thee hundred person 410 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 2: MIT mystery hunt teams are an enormous management problem. But yes, 411 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 2: like if you can manage a puzzle hunt team of 412 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 2: one hundred people, that does seem useful for managing a 413 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 2: hedge fund. 414 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: They create custom software platforms just to manage the puzzles. 415 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: It's incredible. I did want to go back to you 416 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: were correcting that at midnight men is we're out of 417 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: Goldman And I'd say maybe still less than I mean, 418 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: maybe forty percent of our teams are Goldman thirty to 419 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: forty percent of our teams, so they're a huge supporter. 420 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: And just to give the context for your listeners, this 421 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: Midnight Madness is a charity event for Good Shepherd Services. 422 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: And so the great part is instead of going to 423 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: a fundraiser where you have to you know, buy a 424 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: table and sit through speeches and watch pretty picture videos, 425 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: you stake a team to compete. And so I'd say, yeah, 426 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: still definitely a huge The biggest showing is from Goldman, 427 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: but there's probably fifteen to twenty different firms represented, everything 428 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: from bigger investment banks to quant firms to really small 429 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: shops and I don't even know all the different types 430 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: of shops that are represented there. And it goes from 431 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 1: like places where the CEO is leading the team and 432 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: to places where the CEO stakes the team and then 433 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: like puts his best people on the team and shows 434 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: up at the finish line, or also places where just 435 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: like they just look at it as a donation and 436 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: let the people who want to show up. 437 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: But right, the idea is like basically Midnight Madness, as 438 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: the funders are for Good Shepherd. A team is up 439 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: to six people, correct, and it costs something like forty 440 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 2: thousand dollars to sponsor a team, So it's exactly it's 441 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 2: a meaningful donation. 442 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And so we'll have twenty five teams duking 443 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: it out on October fourth, the early hours of October fifth, 444 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: duking it out for the title of the most you know, 445 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: most intelligent and really best. 446 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 2: So in my experience, the production values for Midnight Madness 447 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: are really high. Like the year I did it most recently, 448 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 2: it ended on the intrepid, like the aircraft car and 449 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: solving a puzzle on and a real Enigma machine. I 450 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 2: don't know if you know this, but it's very finance 451 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 2: industry coded, like you're not a hedge fund unless you 452 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 2: have a real Enigma machine somewhere. And it was like, 453 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 2: you know, you have to like get clues, like going 454 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 2: to like a screening of a movie on a rooftop 455 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 2: in Brooklyn, and like there was a like chessboard in 456 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 2: the Brooklyn Museum. It was like a real pretty high 457 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 2: end experience. I'm very interested in talking about the puzzle aspect, 458 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: but like as designers, I feel like you're more interested 459 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 2: in like the cool experiences side of it. You're talking 460 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 2: about that. 461 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that was really intimidating. And it's interesting 462 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 4: when Ryan and I started designing games like this when 463 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 4: we were in college, just for our friends and scraping 464 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 4: together a couple of bucks from our own pocket and 465 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 4: trying to dream as big as we could. And only 466 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 4: many years later we came across an article about the 467 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 4: tradition of mid Night Madness and learned that there was 468 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 4: a puzzle that year where teams had controls that were 469 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 4: actively controlling the lights on the Empire state building and 470 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 4: changing the colors to solve a puzzle. And we were 471 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 4: absolutely floored by the kind of production value available to 472 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 4: these game designers and thought like, wow, if we could 473 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 4: just do something like that one day, that would be 474 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 4: the biggest dream that we could dream for ourselves. And yeah, 475 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 4: so a lot of the fee that people contribute to 476 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 4: stake a team does go towards the production of a 477 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 4: very fantastic and epic game, and that's part of the appeal. 478 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 4: It is interesting for us to try to design for 479 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 4: the man or woman who has everything quote unquote, and 480 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 4: if you're super wealthy and you have all these kind 481 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 4: of opportunities and experiences available to you on a regular basis. 482 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 4: You know what is impressive, what can make an impression 483 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 4: on that type of person. And I think that's part 484 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 4: of where this tradition has come from, of like, wow, 485 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 4: it has to be bombastic, and having access to landmark 486 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 4: locations in New York City that you wouldn't normally have 487 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 4: is a big part of it. The scale has changed 488 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 4: a bit. I think when Alicia was designing it, maybe 489 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,360 Speaker 4: a much bigger portion of the fee went towards the 490 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 4: production value of the game and reallocating a different kind 491 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 4: of percentage to the charity versus. 492 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: The more to the charity. To be clear, now we 493 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: don't know. 494 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 2: Do you have a list of like here are some 495 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 2: cool locations, let's see if you can get them, and 496 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 2: then like often get told no or. 497 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: Like absolutely if you want to like get. 498 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 2: The Intrepid, like how easy is that? And when you 499 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 2: call and you say hi, we run a puzzle hunt 500 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: with a lot of golden people like does that work? 501 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 2: Or people like what are you talking about? 502 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: It's everything. We didn't get the Intrepid. I think that 503 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: was the year before we started working with them, So 504 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: I can't speak to specifically renting the Intrepid, but it's 505 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: always yeah at midnight, yeah, or into two am. Some 506 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: things are wow, we're never going to get that, And 507 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: then people come back to us and I'm like, yeah, 508 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: about twenty five hundred dollars and you're like, great, let's 509 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: do it. 510 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 2: What's like the most surprising location thing you've gotten access to? 511 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: Last game? 512 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 4: We did a puzzle in Fao Schwartz where teams had 513 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 4: to play the big piano with their feet to solve 514 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 4: a puzzle that was a really fun one for someone 515 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 4: who grew up watching the movie Big with Tom Hanks. 516 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 3: We could also ask the inverse of that question, I mean, 517 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 3: where have you been turned down from that you really 518 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 3: wanted to happen? 519 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: You know, every year there's a theme. In twenty twenty 520 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: three it was the Lost Cosmonauts, which is a riff 521 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: on a conspiracy theory that there's cosmonauts that were launched 522 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: into space that we'd never heard about, and kind of 523 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: the seat of the idea is that somehow they're still 524 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: alive and we have to bring them home, and so 525 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: we're going to do a cosmonaut training course, like in 526 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: a swimming pool in New York, City, and so I 527 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: was trying to get one of those huge inflatable like 528 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: water obstacle courses. You know, We're going to like order 529 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 1: this ten thousand dollars inflatable obstacle course from China and 530 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: then like set it up in an Olympic sized pool 531 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: in New York City and it just did not fly. 532 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: And you know, we had a poor good shepherd staffer 533 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: who was in charge of trying to find me my 534 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: swimming pool, and she was just like, Ryan, I don't 535 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: think anyone's gonna let us inflate this giant obstacle course 536 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: in the pool. 537 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 4: I've always wanted to do a puzzle in the Natural 538 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 4: History Museum, like with the Big Whale. 539 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 3: And Night at the Museum style. 540 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. You have to become like an official partner 541 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 4: of the museum and it's like an annual membership that 542 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 4: costs thirty thousand dollars, and then there's all these other 543 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 4: hoops you have to jump through and. 544 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 3: You can get a Bloomberg terminal with that. 545 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: Some of the best locations we've had are like the 546 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 1: rooftop of the Port Authority Bus terminal on the north 547 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: end of the Port Authority Bus Terminal, there's an uncovered 548 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: parking deck that anyone can access, and you can look 549 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: down forty first Street all the way to the library, 550 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: through Times Square, through Bryant Bryant Park, and at night 551 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: it's one of the most incredible places in New York City, 552 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: and it's just sitting there for anyone to come and see. 553 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: Or we'll like park a box truck on the side 554 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: of the street and have people go in and there's 555 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: like a speakeasy type establishment with like a live band 556 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: inside a box truck delivery truck just parked on the 557 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 1: side of the road. And so the venues that we 558 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: love are those types of unexpected delight that kind of 559 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: like are hidden in that New York City is so 560 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: good at kind of concealing. 561 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 2: What about like best puzzles, right, so you've talked about 562 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: like the simplest level is like you get handed a 563 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 2: piece of paper and you do some piece of paper 564 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 2: like certainly like i'd been diet madness with production value 565 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 2: is what they are. Like there's some amount of like 566 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 2: doing puzzles on cool physical objects. Like what are some 567 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 2: like cool physical objects that have been purposed as puzzles. 568 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: I have one sitting right here it's a like a 569 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 1: palaneer orb crystal ball that we distributed the crystal ball. Yeah, 570 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: holding up a crystal ball and it reacts with different 571 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: colors and flashing patterns based on where you are geographically. 572 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 1: And so there was a whole puzzle in twenty twenty 573 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: one scattered all over Central Park, and as you approach 574 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: different locations, the globe did different things and flashed different 575 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: color sequences, and then those were decoded. One of my 576 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: favorite puzzles from I think this is an atlasio. I 577 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: don't know, but I've read about it in one of 578 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: the many articles that I'm sure you guys said, was 579 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: the circuit board where you had to assemble circle circuit 580 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: board and then one of the transistors overheated and you 581 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: discovered that the circuit board was actually a map of 582 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: New York City subway stations, and when you looked at 583 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: it through an infrared camera, you know it was identifying 584 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,959 Speaker 1: which station to go to. So that's another example of 585 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: something that lives in my head as a great use 586 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: of a physical object. 587 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 3: Just to go back to midnight madness really quickly, I mean, 588 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 3: so you have these three to four to five hour puzzles, 589 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 3: I believe you said Midnight Maddness seems like a different 590 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 3: beast entirely in that you know it runs overnight. 591 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, what is your time expectation for this year's 592 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 2: Midnight Madness? 593 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 3: Like? 594 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: When does it start? And when do you expect the 595 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 2: last team to finish? Yeah? 596 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 4: About twelves and fourteen hours, depending on how fast teams are. 597 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 4: The idea is to start it, Yeah, early afternoon one 598 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 4: or two, and then it ends sometimes shortly after midnight, 599 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 4: hopefully not too much longer than that. 600 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 3: So it's in early October. When do you start planning 601 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 3: for it? 602 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 4: Typically about a year in advance, so it's about a 603 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 4: year in the making. 604 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 2: Do you design games for like a lot of big 605 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 2: Wall Street for can you, like, say, or your repeat 606 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 2: clients or something. 607 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 4: Yes, we have a lot of Wall Street clients. That's 608 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 4: our biggest audience and our biggest client base. 609 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 5: We have liked in your business, you do like relatively 610 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 5: short like one day events for like team building events 611 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 5: for companies who hire you to design games. 612 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, three to four hours long, based on how much 613 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: we think that they can take or how much we 614 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: know that they can take. As we have repeat clients, 615 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: we start to understand the culture of the company and 616 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: what they're looking for and what they can handle, and yeah, 617 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: there's been. 618 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 2: Something you can handle the most. 619 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: Well, you know, there's a difference between who can handle 620 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: the most and who wants to give off the vibe 621 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: like they can. 622 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 2: Hold of the most. 623 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: Right, Yea, we have NDA. All of these companies. 624 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 2: Are so secret we'll beleeve them out. 625 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: It's really hard. Fortunately, Bridgewater has been very generous that 626 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: they allow us to talk to say that we have 627 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: done many hunts for them, and they actually came to 628 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: us only recently in twenty twenty one after they did 629 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: Midnight Manas formerly known as Compass with us, and we've 630 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: worked with them multiple times a year for different teams, 631 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: and they're awesome to work with. 632 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: I do want to know where bridge Will falls on 633 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 2: the can handle things and want to give the impression, 634 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: but it seems rude to make you. 635 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: Answer they're great. I mean, don't make us pick between 636 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,479 Speaker 1: our children. We love all of our puzzle shouldern equally. 637 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: And the only thing I'll say is specifically the team 638 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: we work for does love the puzzly puzzles. You know, 639 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: there's definitely a gradient of people that love the experience. 640 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: They love the locations and the feedback we get from 641 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: from Bridgewater at least the point of contact and our 642 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: who helps us plan their events, is that they want 643 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: the puzzles, they want the goods. 644 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, they want the brutality. They like it to be difficult. 645 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: And it's been really interesting for us as again outsiders, 646 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: like we both went to art school, figuring out what's 647 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: the difference between like a quant Hedge Front and a 648 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: Bridgewater and a Goldman and where they all function in 649 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: this world. It's been quite the education. 650 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 4: They each have a different culture that manifests differently in 651 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 4: our games, and often the culture is kind of inspired 652 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 4: by the founder. Like some of them are work hard, 653 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 4: play hard, and they they like to party hard, and 654 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 4: that's a culture that emanates from the founder. And some 655 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 4: of them are more like about work life balance and generosity, 656 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 4: and they each kind of have a very distinct culture 657 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 4: that we can recognize just in our limited touch points 658 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 4: through our games. And also when a lot of our 659 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 4: client base was more tech like Google and Meta and 660 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 4: tech firms, we joke about like making our own private 661 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 4: investments based on how well we see people doing in 662 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 4: our games, because we definitely recognize the companies that are 663 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 4: doing well for us, we're also doing well in the market. 664 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: And then when those same companies three years later stopped 665 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: doing well, it meant something. 666 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 2: Stop doing around the puzzles. The puzzles were like a 667 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 2: leading indicator of the stock or exactly. Yeah, as a 668 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 2: hedge found ever been like you're gonnat puzzles come work. 669 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: For us, not in house, but we know some hedge 670 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: funds that do have in house puzzle creators and have 671 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: hired our friends as in house puzzle creators. So it exists. 672 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: It's a thing. 673 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,239 Speaker 2: I've seen some of that, right because like clearly like 674 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 2: there is a big like recruiting dynamic of a lot 675 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 2: of these firms like to hire people who are good 676 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 2: at puzzles. They like to pose puzzles to them as 677 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 2: part of the recruiting process. They like to attract people 678 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 2: who like puzzles. So that seem like an overlap in 679 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 2: the puzzle creator community. Like, is there like a trend 680 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 2: where a lot of people have a certain degree or 681 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 2: a certain background. 682 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: Certainly, yeah, stats, math business, definitely, But then there's also 683 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: people who do a lot of more linguistic puzzles. There's 684 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: like a whole kind of like the crossword, you know 685 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: that whole world is a little more linguistic and they 686 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: have a different background. 687 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 2: What I've done puzzles, there's always a like cryptic crossword 688 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 2: cluing type puzzle, and I'm always the guy who solves this. 689 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 2: Like that's why one contribution to the team. 690 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: Right right, A good puzzle creation team has a good 691 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: puzzle is created by people with a lot of different backgrounds. 692 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 2: I assume that when you do team building events, it's 693 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 2: like a company like two hundred people. But do you 694 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 2: ever have like these five people are going to do 695 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 2: a puzzle on together. 696 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, if you can afford us, 697 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: we'll do it. And we've done groups as small as 698 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: four and groups as large as what three hundred four hundred? 699 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 2: John, Well, can you tell me about the groups of four? Like, 700 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 2: how does that come in? 701 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: Either someone's birthday, it's a birthday party. Usually you know 702 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: someone who really likes puzzles, and either they can afford 703 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: our our services because we just like run a past 704 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: event for them, or they have a ton of money 705 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: and we do something completely tailored to them that's like 706 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 1: all about their life and all about their fifty years 707 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: and all about their kids and and those are really 708 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 1: fun too. 709 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 4: We've done many birthdays for CEOs of like hedge funds. 710 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say, like, this feels like a 711 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 2: classic hedgehund manager fiftieth birthday party. 712 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: We did one hedge fund who said that they wanted 713 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 1: maybe if you want to talk about our White Whale 714 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: was the one of the co CEOs. This is a small, 715 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: small fund and they said, Okay, I'm gonna I want 716 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: to do this across Europe for my fiftieth birthday. And 717 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: I was like, yes, let's do it. Call us and 718 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: then they never showed. 719 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,280 Speaker 2: But you have like preliminary budget. 720 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: No, no, we didn't. We didn't even get yeah, get 721 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 1: that far. But it was it was a really fun 722 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: It was for a fun that was celebrating their twenty 723 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 1: fifth anniversary I think in London, and so we got 724 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: to build a six hour hunt in London and that 725 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: was one of our favorite still our favorite jobs to date. 726 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: But it could have been the lead into a cross 727 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: Europe scavenger hunt, but wasn't to be. 728 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well you said something about like you had a 729 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 2: lot of tech clients and now you have fewer tech 730 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 2: clients and it's like more finance geuing, Like, what do 731 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 2: you think is causing that? 732 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've definitely seen the shift from when tech was 733 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: the coolest place to be and now it's these companies 734 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: have matured and they're still great places to work, but 735 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: there's a little less of an edge to them. I 736 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: think we've seen they're also working a little less hard 737 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: at employer retention and they're pulling back the perks. And 738 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: so we've seen pre pandemic specifically, we do a lot 739 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: of like fifty to eighty percent events for big tech companies, 740 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: growing tech companies, that sort of thing, and then post pandemic, 741 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: we've seen a lot fewer tech companies. And when the 742 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: tech companies do come, this is more of a return 743 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: to office thing, but it's a much smaller group. So 744 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: people are getting together in much smaller groups. They're going 745 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 1: out with their immediate five to twelve team members and 746 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: not their full division or whatever. And so we at 747 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: the same time, we've seen a lot more hedge funds 748 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: and AI companies coming in, and so, yeah, as the 749 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: type of company where young, ambitious, really smart people work 750 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: at kind of shifts, we do see that our in 751 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:51,959 Speaker 1: our clients. 752 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 2: As well, so it's like if you work at Facebook, 753 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 2: like ten years ago you were like I really want 754 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,959 Speaker 2: to solve puzzles, Like I'm motivated to like use my brain. 755 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 2: And now it's like I'm going to rest invest and 756 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 2: like going a puzzle hunt. 757 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: I don't want to say exactly, but yeah, that's that's 758 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,320 Speaker 1: a little bit of the vibe I get. One of 759 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: the reasons that I started reading money stuff was after 760 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: you wrote that huge Crypto article, Matt, And at the 761 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: same time, we were building a completely bespoke, kind of 762 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: alternate reality game puzzle community for a NFT firm, and 763 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: we had no idea what we were doing in Crypto, 764 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 1: no idea what we're doing with NFTs, and so reading 765 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: your article helped me like get my head around this 766 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: whole concept. As we were building out this game community 767 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: world ip universe that we were hired to do kind 768 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: of like as an extension of the bord A Biacht 769 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: Club universe, and and it was a we did get paid, Yeah, yeah, 770 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: we got paid. It was it was an incredible, incredible 771 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: experience and we got to create characters and create stories 772 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: and sometimes our events are a little more puzzle puzzly 773 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 1: oriented and this was the most built out we've ever 774 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: like created a whole world, Like we created locations and 775 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 1: characters and plot points and betrayals and you know, stashed 776 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: puzzles in lockers at the Lax airport and in bars 777 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: in London and slipped burner phones and it was a 778 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 1: really fun event. Now, the prodect as a whole didn't 779 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: survive more than a few years, but we kind of 780 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: were in this at one of the crypto bull markets 781 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 1: and it's a real moment in time. 782 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 2: We've talked about hedgphones and tech firms, like we didn't 783 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 2: even talk about like what does the chart of like 784 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 2: your crypto expressure. Yes, I never heard from them. 785 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: It's that's pretty much it. Yeah, we haven't done any 786 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 1: of our private kind of team building events for crypto firms. 787 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 1: This was a kind of like a public facing event 788 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: for the crypto community, and it was led by a 789 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: guy who wanted to create this series of ip around 790 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: some of the board apes, or to be more specific, 791 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: the mutant apes, which is a whole subgenre of apes. 792 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 5: I think we'll end it there, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. 793 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 2: John and Ryan, thank you so much for coming on. 794 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 2: This is fun. 795 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 4: Thank you for having us. 796 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: It's great to be here. Hope to see you on 797 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:11,280 Speaker 1: the streets. 798 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 3: Thank you, guys. 799 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 1: Thanks honored to be your section guests. Yeah wow, what 800 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 1: a distinction. 801 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 2: And that was The Money Stuff Podcast. 802 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 3: I'm Matt Luvian and I'm Katie Greifeld. 803 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 2: You can find my work by subscribing to The Money 804 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 2: Stuff newsletter on Bloomberg. 805 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,479 Speaker 3: Dot com, and you can find me on Bloomberg TV 806 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 3: every day on Open Interest between nine to eleven am Eastern. 807 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 2: I'd love to hear from you. You can send an 808 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 2: email to Money Pod at Bloomberg dot net, ask us 809 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 2: a question and we might answer it on air. 810 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 3: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening 811 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 3: right now and leave us a review. It helps more 812 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 3: people find the show. 813 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 2: The Money Stuff Podcast is produced by Ana ma Asarakus 814 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:51,800 Speaker 2: and Moses onm Ur. 815 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 3: Theme music was composed by Blake Maples. 816 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 2: Brandon Francis Nianimens, our executive producer. 817 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 3: And Stage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. 818 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to The Stuff Podcasts. 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