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Speaker 1: One of the more powerful documentaries that you will hear
Speaker 1: about during the Academy Awards is called The Perfect Neighbor
Speaker 1: and it is by the film Geeta gandiber Getha Gandibier.
Speaker 1: My apologies there, and it is first of all, the
Speaker 1: the film itself is unique because it's the type of
Speaker 1: documentary I love best, meaning no talking hits. It is
Speaker 1: a documentary of real footage and it's about a story
Speaker 1: sadly in my home state of Florida and the standard
Speaker 1: ground law will come into play here a minute. But
Speaker 1: it's a story that's more. This is not a gun story.
Speaker 1: This is a society story. This is a story of race,
Speaker 1: This is a story of policing. This is a story
Speaker 1: of how we live together as Americans. And it's incredibly
Speaker 1: powerful and it couldn't have been done without bodycam footage.
Speaker 1: So if you haven't seen it, it's on Netflix now.
Speaker 1: I highly recommend it. It's powerful, it's disturbing, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's also heartbreaking. As we were just discussing its grief
Speaker 1: and rage, as Geita will tell you, all wrapped up
Speaker 1: in one and Giza joins me. Now, Gita, how did
Speaker 1: I do introducing your film?
Speaker 2: That was great? Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: You're first of all, it's nominated for all sorts of awards.
Speaker 1: How important is an Academy award to you?
Speaker 2: So the Academy Award is a huge honor. I think
Speaker 2: it's every you know, it's a dream. Honestly, it's a
Speaker 2: dream and sometimes feels like a pipe dream, you know,
Speaker 2: in our in our field. But I think what makes
Speaker 2: it so significant it's that it's our peers who vote right,
Speaker 2: people that we admire, people that inspire us, our idols,
Speaker 2: our colleagues, you know, so that community feels so meaningful,
Speaker 2: and the idea that they choose your film of the many, many,
Speaker 2: many disturbing films means so much. So that makes it
Speaker 2: an incredible honor again a dream. I think beyond that though,
Speaker 2: to all the awards really give us a platform to
Speaker 2: talk about the issues that and the impact that we
Speaker 2: want to have goes far beyond the film. We're really
Speaker 2: hoping for change, that the film will be a vehicle
Speaker 2: for change. So I think the the there's two things
Speaker 2: that come into play with the awards. The just the
Speaker 2: honor of it all, and so grateful that the platform
Speaker 2: is equally important.
Speaker 1: No, and you know, kudos to Netflix for making you know,
Speaker 1: for promoting it. Not just there's one thing to just
Speaker 1: put it on your streamer. It's another thing to actually
Speaker 1: promoted and make sure people can see it.
Speaker 2: Which they could have honestly, And this was an independent film.
Speaker 2: We made this independently. My team Message Pictures, Park Pictures
Speaker 2: joined us, SOB Productions also joined us. We were a
Speaker 2: very small but mighty scrappy team for very little money.
Speaker 2: We also got some development funding, but the from Peacock,
Speaker 2: but they chose not to take the film ultimately, so
Speaker 2: we but use it, you know, small resources. But the
Speaker 2: Sundance Film Festival accepted the film and really give that platform.
Speaker 2: That was our first premiere, and after that Netflix made
Speaker 2: us an offer. So Netflix took it to the next
Speaker 2: level again, a global platform.
Speaker 1: Look, my head is in two different places. Like one part,
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the decision to go without
Speaker 1: a narrator and to use all the body cam footage.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, I do think we should spend
Speaker 1: a few minutes on the story itself. Sure, and so
Speaker 1: I want to begin with there, which is what did
Speaker 1: you when did you become you know, how closely were
Speaker 1: you following this story in real time in Marion County, Florida.
Speaker 1: You know, I hate to say it, when I watched this,
Speaker 1: it was a very you know, I knew a little
Speaker 1: something about the story itself, so I knew I was
Speaker 1: going to end. But that community, that fight, I've seen
Speaker 1: that it's a very familiar thing. What was unfamiliar was
Speaker 1: to see it chronicled, yeah, right in real time, and
Speaker 1: that's what made it, I think so powerful. But I
Speaker 1: am curious, what was your familiarity with the story at
Speaker 1: different points in time while it was unfolding.
Speaker 2: Sure, so there is a personal connection to this story
Speaker 2: because Ajaca Owens was a family friend. So you were
Speaker 2: involved from the minute that had happened. Unfortunately, from the
Speaker 2: minute that.
Speaker 1: You you knew immediately you were brought in. Did you
Speaker 1: know about what was happening in that neighborhood before.
Speaker 2: She was killed? No, we didn't, and we myself and
Speaker 2: Mama said, we am talking about myself and my husband,
Speaker 2: who's also a producer on the film that come onto
Speaker 2: and my teammate message picture is Alisa Payne and Sam Pollard.
Speaker 2: You're my producing partners. We got a distress call though,
Speaker 2: from my sister in law who was best friends with
Speaker 2: Ajaca Owens. And when I say sister in law, she's
Speaker 2: really my cousin in law. But we culturally don't differentiate
Speaker 2: like she's We're very close. That's my sister in law.
Speaker 1: I've got cousins.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly so, but just you know, in case anybody
Speaker 2: wants to, you know, wants to fact check it. Cousin
Speaker 2: in law. But we got we got a call the
Speaker 2: night that had happened, and We're immediately on the ground
Speaker 2: trying to support the family and helping gathering the children
Speaker 2: and getting Achica's mother into town. And also we were
Speaker 2: very aware that the story needed to be in the
Speaker 2: media because without media attention, cases like Ajica's often get
Speaker 2: swept under the rung. I mean, there's so much gun violence,
Speaker 2: unfortunately in our society that it's almost an everyday occurrence.
Speaker 2: There's another story of somebody getting.
Speaker 1: Shot and neighbor dispute with it turning into a deadly
Speaker 1: gunshot is sadly almost it probably is a daily occurrence.
Speaker 2: Daily occurrence, right more or less. So we were because
Speaker 2: we work in media, our team, that's what we felt
Speaker 2: we could do and how we could help. And Susan
Speaker 2: was not immediately arrested because of stanyr ground laws. They
Speaker 2: had to stand your ground investigation, and we have the
Speaker 2: precedent of the Trayvon Martin case that happened in Florida,
Speaker 2: so we were deeply concerned that there would be no
Speaker 2: justice for Ajica. And then about two months later, Susan
Speaker 2: was eventually arrested. About two months later, we received the
Speaker 2: body camera footage from the family lawyers and who we
Speaker 2: were still involved with the family and again still trying
Speaker 2: to support the case because we didn't know. Again, we
Speaker 2: were worried it might languish, you know, it could take
Speaker 2: years for anything to happen. But the footage came to
Speaker 2: us and they asked us to go through it. They
Speaker 2: were like, can you look through it? Is there anything
Speaker 2: in here for the media? And it was about thirty
Speaker 2: hours of material, and I was shocked. I'd never seen
Speaker 2: that much footage around a case before.
Speaker 1: Can I just say, I'm I was oddly impressed with
Speaker 1: how much there was and how you know, I'm a
Speaker 1: cynic on this stuff. I assume all these guys are
Speaker 1: going to turn it off when the real you know,
Speaker 1: and they there was so much there. It felt real.
Speaker 1: It felt like I got a real sense of how
Speaker 1: Marion County Police officers handle these disputes.
Speaker 2: Yes, now one percent, and they were there so often
Speaker 2: because Susan called so often. But I think what struck
Speaker 2: me is that you got to see in this footage
Speaker 2: the community as they were before, and it was undeniable.
Speaker 2: You got to see this beautiful multi racial community living together,
Speaker 2: loving each other, acting like a big extended family, taking
Speaker 2: care of the kids, you know, and you got to
Speaker 2: see the kids playing outside, being precocious and funny, and
Speaker 2: you know, I loved And because there is so much
Speaker 2: gun violence, we are used to the grieving family. We
Speaker 2: know the aftermath of what happens, but we never get
Speaker 2: to see them before. And to me, the story of
Speaker 2: this community and what they had to go through and
Speaker 2: how one outlier who was emboldened by Stanley ground laws
Speaker 2: plus combined with our access to guns, disrupted their whole world.
Speaker 1: What did you know? What when did you know you
Speaker 1: had a film?
Speaker 2: Sure? So when when we saw the body camera.
Speaker 1: Footage, immediately were like, this is I can do something
Speaker 1: with that? No?
Speaker 2: Because not because what Because like I said, it was
Speaker 2: thirty hours. It came in a jumble, It came on
Speaker 2: a thumb drive and there were folders. But there's the
Speaker 2: cops unintentionally function like multi camera with the you know,
Speaker 2: with the footage, because sometimes there were two of them unseen.
Speaker 1: Sometimes there was a little it could be a little uh,
Speaker 1: it was a little love. Don't I don't want to
Speaker 1: say it, you know, sort of like wait what I mean?
Speaker 1: You know it's sort of dizzying, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But this is again the nature, this
Speaker 2: is not production footage, right, they just just it's pleas evidence.
Speaker 2: But I spent about two weeks along with Nikon Kwan
Speaker 2: two my again my producer and partner, stringing it into
Speaker 2: a timeline. I used to be an editor, so I
Speaker 2: pieced it together and synchronized all the footage and the sound,
Speaker 2: and also took time to figure out the chronology. And
Speaker 2: it was once we had the whole thing strung out
Speaker 2: and we watched it down and we could understand the
Speaker 2: chronology and what happened, that's when I was like, Aha,
Speaker 2: the family.
Speaker 1: So one of the things I was curious about is
Speaker 1: that the family attorney immediately asked for body cam footage
Speaker 1: for every incident that had ever taken place differ in
Speaker 1: that neighborhood.
Speaker 2: Okay, I asked, of course for the court case, that's
Speaker 2: what they would need, right, So they asked for everything,
Speaker 2: and what you see in the film is pretty much
Speaker 2: what we got. What the what the lawyers were given.
Speaker 1: There was also some ring whether it's some doorbell cameras
Speaker 1: or wing cameras as well.
Speaker 2: Right, I was part of it also because that was
Speaker 2: collected as evidence. But I think the thing that to
Speaker 2: me that struck me was that I felt like the
Speaker 2: footage played like a horror film. It played to me,
Speaker 2: I thought of films. I come from a scripted background.
Speaker 2: Originally I came up with Spike Lee and Sam Pollard.
Speaker 1: And actually it had a Jaws vibe to me, the
Speaker 1: original Jaws, right, which is the you know, the initial
Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg horror creator of that moment of where you
Speaker 1: don't see, you don't see the menace, but you know
Speaker 1: it's coming out there. That's what I felt. Body came,
Speaker 1: You're just like I had it. I just got the
Speaker 1: Jaws vibe in that sense because you know it's building up,
Speaker 1: but you don't know when it's coming, but you know
Speaker 1: it's coming.
Speaker 2: Nobody has said Jaws before. I love that. The references
Speaker 2: for me were paranormal activity and you know things that
Speaker 2: used and also the Blair Witch Project, like films that
Speaker 2: were made sure that was meant to be found footage
Speaker 2: or you know again CCTV footage, surveillance camera footage. So
Speaker 2: those were sort of my references, and I wanted to
Speaker 2: make something that was immersive, that would grip audiences and
Speaker 2: hold them. Oftentimes, when we make documentaries, particularly if they're
Speaker 2: social justice, sometimes people don't want to, you know, they
Speaker 2: don't want to hear it, like or they're not interested,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: I that was Look, I had my wife. I was saying,
Speaker 1: I'm going to watch this film an internet. She's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like you know, I know this story.
Speaker 1: I don't know right, Like because you're right. And that's
Speaker 1: why I'm like, no, people, you need to see this.
Speaker 1: You need to see it because it's a groundmaking way
Speaker 1: to make a movie. Number one. So there's a technical
Speaker 1: aspect of this that's I mean, I'm not a voter,
Speaker 1: but if I were to me, this is why to me,
Speaker 1: it's an e're the easy winner simply because it's both
Speaker 1: a technically you've done something new and interesting and different
Speaker 1: in a basically because we now have all this stuff
Speaker 1: we didn't. You know, you couldn't have made this with
Speaker 1: with Trayvon Martin. It didn't exist. But one of the
Speaker 1: other no, no, no, and so and then there's the powerful
Speaker 1: story itself that you tell where you don't have to.
Speaker 1: You're not trying, You're you're you're helping people get to
Speaker 1: a place, but you're not preaching. You're not telling people
Speaker 1: what should be, what to think. You're just showing you're
Speaker 1: letting us decide what should be and you're like, that
Speaker 1: wasn't right.
Speaker 2: Thank you for that. Now we trust our audience. I
Speaker 2: think that was a big part of it. We were
Speaker 2: are beliefs that we could live in this body camera
Speaker 2: footage and the you know, the police evidence footage. And
Speaker 2: there was a couple of thoughts. One was that we
Speaker 2: didn't want to go back and retraumatize the community by
Speaker 2: making them relive it again interviewing them. They've they've already
Speaker 2: been interviewed by detectives, they've lived it, like I didn't
Speaker 2: want to to burden them with that. Then the other
Speaker 2: part of it is we felt the body camera footage
Speaker 2: was really undeniable. And right now we live in a
Speaker 2: time where everything the media does is questioned, and with
Speaker 2: this footage, there was no film crew on the ground,
Speaker 2: right there was We were not there directing anything. So again,
Speaker 2: because it is police evidence, you see things exactly as
Speaker 2: they happened, no one, there was no outside journalist influencing,
Speaker 2: So I think that makes it undeniable to audiences. And
Speaker 2: also you can see in this footage again how this
Speaker 2: community was oftentimes after after people of color in particular,
Speaker 2: are victimized after a crime happens to us. We are
Speaker 2: often criminalized and our children are adultified. And we felt
Speaker 2: in the footage again the police did not mean to
Speaker 2: capture this, but they did that. Again. This community, this
Speaker 2: incredible community, and this like you have the mother who says,
Speaker 2: you know, all these kids, they're all mine, and the
Speaker 2: father comes out and is like, I look out for
Speaker 2: these kids like they're my own. You see in footage,
Speaker 2: even footage that Susan shot, the adults playing football with
Speaker 2: the kids like it was and the kids are outside
Speaker 2: having like you know, healthy connected fun.
Speaker 1: And I think what all of our political leaders say, Hey,
Speaker 1: kids seem to be outside more, not in front of
Speaker 1: their screens. Right, these kids were outside.
Speaker 2: They were outside, and I think and also you saw
Speaker 2: a community of upstanders like Susan the two neighbors, and
Speaker 2: it wasn't It's interesting because even though it is about race,
Speaker 2: and Susan tried to weaponize race. You know, you see
Speaker 2: the two neighbors that AA that lived on either side
Speaker 2: of Ochica or white women and were complete upstanders.
Speaker 1: What I saw it as is this is why it's
Speaker 1: a familiar community to me in Florida. There are a
Speaker 1: lot of this is just a working class middle sort
Speaker 1: of what i've working class, you know, strivers is what
Speaker 1: I would call it, right, working crash driver community who
Speaker 1: like don't want to live in an apartment complex with
Speaker 1: their kids, want their kids to have more of a
Speaker 1: of a of a of a you know, sort of
Speaker 1: that whatever whatever, the idealized version of growing up in
Speaker 1: a neighborhood and all that stuff. And they're and you know,
Speaker 1: these communities are all over Florida. It's sort of what
Speaker 1: makes Florida an attractive melting pot to many people and
Speaker 1: why they move. And it's affordable.
Speaker 2: It's the best of us. It's really that's the American dream.
Speaker 2: It's the best of us, right like a place where
Speaker 2: and with that strong social network. I think Susan, on
Speaker 2: the other hand, is sort of represents a microcosm of
Speaker 2: all the bills that are plaguing our society. She kind
Speaker 2: of holds the marita.
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Speaker 1: Two movies jumped out at me with her because there
Speaker 1: have been attempts to sort of portray that character is
Speaker 1: what I would call it right, we know this person exists,
Speaker 1: This person lived in my neighborhood. We all had a
Speaker 1: person like this, right, and you don't quite know what
Speaker 1: they were, right. Ye had the Clint Eastwood movie where
Speaker 1: he's the old man, uh boy Tornado or something like that,
Speaker 1: where grand grandson, grand Tarino.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: And then I was thinking of the that Michael Douglas
Speaker 1: movie right falling Down whatever, you know, the whole white grievance,
Speaker 1: white rage. Right. She she felt like a very familiar character,
Speaker 1: right that we'd seen portrayed. But here was here here
Speaker 1: I think there's there's this assumption that maybe these folks
Speaker 1: no longer exist.
Speaker 2: No, well, she very very much must exist.
Speaker 1: I'm curious, did you want to what did you? I was?
Speaker 1: I wanted to know more of like how did she
Speaker 1: become so broken? She's broken, there's no doubt she's broken.
Speaker 1: We don't know what's it.
Speaker 2: We don't know this. You know, she moved into the
Speaker 2: neighborhood two years before everything happened, and we don't have
Speaker 2: much of her backstory, you know, Nor did we want
Speaker 2: to speculate on it.
Speaker 1: No, I get that too, but it's clear she some
Speaker 1: somebody something something, She's broken. And you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know who knows when it happened, right, might have happened
Speaker 1: years ago or two years ago.
Speaker 2: You might just be racist though until.
Speaker 1: Well, and that's the thing she got broken early. Then. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I always say you, you know, you have
Speaker 1: to be raised a racist.
Speaker 2: Uh huh.
Speaker 1: I do believe that. I don't think because kids are
Speaker 1: not racist unless they're caught it now.
Speaker 2: And I appreciate you thinking of that as broken, because yeah,
Speaker 2: it should be thought of that way. But I think
Speaker 2: I was the one thing I wanted to say, though,
Speaker 2: is that she also seemed to be someone who absorbed
Speaker 2: a lot of the rhetoric that is coming from the
Speaker 2: top down today in our country, which is manufactured fear
Speaker 2: like weaponized racism again, and that those kind of things
Speaker 2: combined with her access to weapons.
Speaker 1: Plus we'll think about those law What was this the
Speaker 1: incident in Saint Louis in Sance, Absolutely it was about
Speaker 1: three years ago where the guy just shot and then
Speaker 1: was the kid who went to the wrong door. It
Speaker 1: was going to go It happened more.
Speaker 2: It happened recently. There was a woman who was supposed
Speaker 2: to clean someone's house and came to the door and
Speaker 2: the man shutter the wrong house, like it is, this idea,
Speaker 2: but the manufactured fear is a tool to divide us, right,
Speaker 2: and when we fear our neighbors, when we like again,
Speaker 2: then we're okay with them being kidnapped and put in
Speaker 2: detention centers. Right, Like it's it's used the idea, and
Speaker 2: it allows an authoritarian government to say things like, noah,
Speaker 2: we'll protect you. We just need to get rid of
Speaker 2: these people over here. So she seemed to be a
Speaker 2: symptom of all those societal ills.
Speaker 1: And that is why, in some ways I wanted to
Speaker 1: know more, like is she just sitting on her lounge
Speaker 1: chair watching one feed of stuff? And you know, is
Speaker 1: her information ecosystem very blinder oriented right now? You know?
Speaker 1: But it struck me she never had anybody with her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there at once, now, when she was moving out
Speaker 2: of the house, that was her sister. There was a
Speaker 2: woman there who was her sister. But other than that
Speaker 2: that was that, we didn't see much of anybody near her.
Speaker 2: But what's interesting, like I said, is there were other
Speaker 2: older women. There was another woman who was her neighbor
Speaker 2: who appears in that same scene, who is an older
Speaker 2: woman who similarly lives in that neighborhood. But she was
Speaker 2: the only one. That is what is so interesting. She
Speaker 2: is the only one who ever complained.
Speaker 1: Right, which tells you, you know, says more about.
Speaker 2: Her than anything else, and anything else, you.
Speaker 1: Know, the try to me all, you know, your documentary
Speaker 1: sort of makes the case that in some ways this
Speaker 1: was a form of premeditation. Now we can debate that.
Speaker 1: I get that that there's the letter of the law
Speaker 1: and premeditation, but this was not manslaughter. And I think
Speaker 1: we all know that. And yet I understand that the
Speaker 1: state of Florida passed a law that tied the hands
Speaker 1: of those prosecutors.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think also I will say this, I
Speaker 2: think the prosecution, from what happened in the Trayvon Martin
Speaker 2: case and others, I think they went for the lowest
Speaker 2: hanging fruit as well.
Speaker 1: Because I wanted a conviction.
Speaker 2: They wanted a conviction, and with Trayvon Martin, George Imermann
Speaker 2: walked in the charge's murder. So I think with manslaughter
Speaker 2: and Florida, manslaughter carries up to forty years, sorry, thirty years.
Speaker 2: Manslaughter carries thirty years. So I felt I feel that
Speaker 2: they thought they could get a conviction with manslaughter and
Speaker 2: that they she would serve, she would still end up
Speaker 2: with a long.
Speaker 1: Sentence effectively life. Effectively, she was, you know, going to
Speaker 1: be incarcerated for right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for a sixty years old.
Speaker 1: Right yeah, porty.
Speaker 2: You know, as she ended up with twenty five. She
Speaker 2: had not committed any other violent crime before, so I
Speaker 2: think so. But the judge gave her the maximum that
Speaker 2: he could and that was twenty five. So she will
Speaker 2: be if you know again, where she to serve the
Speaker 2: entire sentence, she would be eighty five once she gets out.
Speaker 1: So let's say Governor Desantists watches this film. What do
Speaker 1: you hope he takes away?
Speaker 2: I hope he takes away the damage laws that Standard
Speaker 2: Ground do to communities. I hope he takes away the
Speaker 2: fact that we need gun control, that that in Florida
Speaker 2: you can buy a gun like you can buy a
Speaker 2: toaster or a microwave. And there's a point you see
Speaker 2: in the film where Susan is clearly behaving erratically and
Speaker 2: there should have been a question around her buying. Again,
Speaker 2: I also hope that folks take away Dessantas included how
Speaker 2: policing works and how they could have and should have
Speaker 2: caught Susan, you know, and seeing her as a threat
Speaker 2: earlier on instead of just treating her like a nuisance.
Speaker 2: But I think because they the police again were not
Speaker 2: equipped to handle it. But they also brought there, you know,
Speaker 2: they brought their own biases to the scene, and she
Speaker 2: was able to weaponize them.
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting with them, you know, it was interesting
Speaker 1: to hear how the officers saying, look, I'm going to
Speaker 1: believe you, and I'm going to believe them. I remember
Speaker 1: that was like it stuck out at me, and it's
Speaker 1: like it it was a reminder of why it's important
Speaker 1: for all of this to be on tape. Yes, all right,
Speaker 1: and again I go back. You and I both know
Speaker 1: that if this happens ten years ago, there's every chance
Speaker 1: in the world she's never charged.
Speaker 2: Oh and if there was no footage, I don't know
Speaker 2: that she would be charged. If you didn't see her erratic,
Speaker 2: you know, her behavior, calling the cops again and again
Speaker 2: and again, and if you didn't hear the community side
Speaker 2: of the story, right this, Yeah, she could have walked
Speaker 2: And this is we honestly, we didn't until the very end,
Speaker 2: we had that in our hearts like we were. We
Speaker 2: were like, she's probably going to get off, Like it's
Speaker 2: no way, it's not possible. I was.
Speaker 1: This is the story of the twentieth century. In these incidents,
Speaker 1: they all walk, it felt like almost all the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, this is why you know, I sit here
Speaker 1: and it's like it's an imperfect body camera footage is
Speaker 1: imperfect on all those things, but it's better.
Speaker 2: And it's also incredibly relevant today when you think about
Speaker 2: what's happening in Minnesota, when we were living in a
Speaker 2: time where we have a government who will distort the
Speaker 2: truth at any given moment freely, has no no moral
Speaker 2: compass around doing that. You know, with the murders that
Speaker 2: have happened in Minnesota, where I says murdered a number
Speaker 2: of people, is in.
Speaker 1: Fact that we're debating whether or not they should have
Speaker 1: body cameras I know, and they're like, well, we'll put
Speaker 1: them on, but we want to be able to could no, no, no,
Speaker 1: We're putting that in your hands of deciding when those
Speaker 1: cameras go on enough.
Speaker 2: You need it at all, It should be on it
Speaker 2: all times, because because like I said, there's there is
Speaker 2: clearly audacity, you know of the powers that be, They
Speaker 2: like again, they feel they can distort the truth at
Speaker 2: any given moment to their advantage. And I think with
Speaker 2: and body camera is still only in eight states, it's
Speaker 2: only required in eight states that law enforcement wear it,
Speaker 2: And it could not be more critical right now. And
Speaker 2: it's it is a double edged sword for communities of
Speaker 2: color because it's also a tool of surveillance.
Speaker 1: And no, look, I think about this a lot, you know,
Speaker 1: when it comes to privacy, but you and I Aron,
Speaker 1: I fear that people younger than us have like, don't
Speaker 1: don't view it as surveillance.
Speaker 2: It's surveillance, yeah, and and it absolutely is. So it's
Speaker 2: a double edged sword, particularly for vulnerable, the most vulnerable.
Speaker 2: But I think right now, the particularly with the case
Speaker 2: of Ice and what is happening and with who we
Speaker 2: have in power, it is absolutely needed all law enforcement
Speaker 2: and government agents should be required to wear it, is
Speaker 2: my opinion.
Speaker 1: A few sort of technical things about doing the film.
Speaker 1: Every once in a while you would have body camera
Speaker 1: audio and then it would just did you do sort
Speaker 1: of just sort of almost file footage of the neighborhood
Speaker 1: once or something? Yes, So we did.
Speaker 2: There was we did shoot bee role of the neighborhood.
Speaker 2: So some of the things we shot, we shot vigils,
Speaker 2: we shot protests, the funeral, and we shot bee role
Speaker 2: of the neighborhood. And some of that was for we
Speaker 2: shot originally as to give to media to share with news,
Speaker 2: because we wanted news organizations to to to talk about
Speaker 2: what was happening. And then some of it we shot
Speaker 2: afterwards just as part of the film so that we
Speaker 2: could again sort of create texture and also people could
Speaker 2: see what the neighborhood looked like.
Speaker 1: What was the Was it a struggle to get everybody
Speaker 1: to agree to allow their likeness to be used.
Speaker 2: No, what's so interesting is that that community was really
Speaker 2: like a family. We the body camera footage, we had
Speaker 2: to sort of work in reverse and try and find
Speaker 2: people I'd like, look at them and get them identified
Speaker 2: and then find them. At some of the people. It's
Speaker 2: interesting some people came to us redacted by the police,
Speaker 2: like some of the footage the police had already we
Speaker 2: had already redacted.
Speaker 1: And interesting, why would they I think that was.
Speaker 2: Us to redact all of it? I see it didn't happen,
Speaker 2: so we so then, but if there were people that
Speaker 2: we could not find, particularly children, we would.
Speaker 1: Just redacted it.
Speaker 2: We redacted it.
Speaker 1: So that's so any of the blurred faces were not
Speaker 1: people that said no, you can't do this. It was
Speaker 1: more of the other way.
Speaker 2: It was more it was more people we can fund.
Speaker 2: But there were one or two people who were worried
Speaker 2: about it, and we wanted to We were respectful of them,
Speaker 2: of course. I think though for the most part, the
Speaker 2: community stood behind what we were doing. Like they really
Speaker 2: loved each other and they we actually showed the film
Speaker 2: to them before it aired on Netflix, and it was
Speaker 2: very hard. They had a very visceral reaction to it,
Speaker 2: but they afterwards they they kind of talked through it
Speaker 2: and with each other and you know, had a lot
Speaker 2: of memories. I think it was I think ultimately they
Speaker 2: said it was therapeutic and that they wanted it out
Speaker 2: in the world because they understood what we were doing,
Speaker 2: and they said no other community should have to go
Speaker 2: through that. There is only one family left on that block.
Speaker 2: Everyone else has left.
Speaker 1: They left, they moved.
Speaker 2: How do you stay? And that's how So it's like
Speaker 2: the ripple effect.
Speaker 1: What's your kids?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the ripple effect is enormous and that so that
Speaker 2: beautiful communal again unity where kids came from all the
Speaker 2: neighboring streets to play on that one block decimated.
Speaker 1: Because they had the empty grass field. Every neighborhood has
Speaker 1: that one and it yes there said but so, so you're
Speaker 1: not sure. I don't know who owned it.
Speaker 2: Actually it belonged to the neighbor. It belonged to Susan's
Speaker 2: neighbor who allowed them to play there.
Speaker 1: Who had said yes, yea.
Speaker 2: So it was often out there with them like it was.
Speaker 2: It was they had permission to be there.
Speaker 1: So, you know, I just think about you know, I
Speaker 1: I often believe that it was a it was helpful
Speaker 1: that I grew up in Miami. When I grew up
Speaker 1: in Miami. I grew up in Miami in the in
Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties, and we went through three race
Speaker 1: riots in the eighties, all of which might not have
Speaker 1: happened if there had been body camera footage. You know,
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about just that aspect, like, you know,
Speaker 1: we ripped. Now, it's Miami a beautiful place today in
Speaker 1: some ways because of the pain we all had to
Speaker 1: go through in the eighties. I think there is there
Speaker 1: you could make a case that in some ways it
Speaker 1: is but I think about all this sort of lost
Speaker 1: decade that we had, and how many and the destruction
Speaker 1: of a couple of these communities, Liberty City in particular,
Speaker 1: and and how it could have been avoided. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: and so easily. Now, I mean, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: so that's what makes your film both there was like
Speaker 1: a hopefulness to it, like look, this, this is this
Speaker 1: is why we need body camera footage. We get a
Speaker 1: fuller picture, you get the better story. You know who
Speaker 1: the guilty party is. There's no question who's the instigator.
Speaker 1: There's no question. This isn't it he said, He he said,
Speaker 1: like Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman in that business. You know.
Speaker 1: But it hasn't It doesn't eradicate racism.
Speaker 2: No, no, unfortunately it doesn't. But I think they the
Speaker 2: hope is that it might the film for us in
Speaker 2: some ways, that it serves as a deterrence. And again
Speaker 2: because of the outcome at the end of the trial,
Speaker 2: where like maybe people will think twice about you know,
Speaker 2: trying to trying to pervert the law, which is already
Speaker 2: a problem in and of itself, but pervert standard ground
Speaker 2: laws and use them claim self defense when you're actually
Speaker 2: committing a crime, and that is the hope and again
Speaker 2: and the ultimate hope is to have this law eradicated
Speaker 2: state by state, and particularly because of the danger as
Speaker 2: opposes your career.
Speaker 1: You started working in scripted film with Spike Lee That's
Speaker 1: Home and he is He had spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time doing scripted social justice messaging, right, you know, And
Speaker 1: what do you think is the more effect way to
Speaker 1: get a message across? When is a documentary better than
Speaker 1: better than scripted? And and is it you said something
Speaker 1: earlier that that sort of hit me in this day
Speaker 1: and age when we're not sure what to believe. You know,
Speaker 1: in some ways the body camera footage is the most
Speaker 1: believable material you could come up with. That tells me
Speaker 1: that maybe the better way to to to to tell
Speaker 1: a story is with is with is with real footage
Speaker 1: rather than scripted you know, in the Manufacturer.
Speaker 2: Book, I think they both. I love both mediums and
Speaker 2: I think they both absolutely have their place. I think
Speaker 2: if you have the material to make a really compelling documentary,
Speaker 2: why not, particularly if you're telling a true story, because
Speaker 2: I think people connect connecting to the fact that this
Speaker 2: is someone's actual life. It impacts them differently, whereas if
Speaker 2: it's actors or people. You know again, I love scripted
Speaker 2: was where I started and so and I love it
Speaker 2: so much. But if you have the means to tell
Speaker 2: the story for real, you know, then why not why
Speaker 2: not do that? You know? And I think I think
Speaker 2: that truth is often stranger than fiction, you know, Like
Speaker 2: I the this film to me is a study of
Speaker 2: like you said, of a community of human behavior, of policying,
Speaker 2: like it has so many layers and yeah, and it's real,
Speaker 2: right it is. It's this is stuff that actually unfolded.
Speaker 2: Uh So I think that makes it really powerful. But
Speaker 2: like like I said, I love both. I love both,
Speaker 2: and so I'm always happy to see, you know again,
Speaker 2: stories be told in multiple ways as creatively as possible.
Speaker 2: I think it's really up to the vision of the
Speaker 2: team and the director to decide.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's funny. I think you set a
Speaker 1: bar here that I wonder for yourself, is it is
Speaker 1: it going to be if you want to do a
Speaker 1: documentary about another topic and you don't have enough footage,
Speaker 1: are you going to say, oh, geez, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know. If I don't, I don't want to go
Speaker 1: back to the talking head.
Speaker 2: I might need to tap out.
Speaker 1: I feel like, I mean, I mean, in some ways, right,
Speaker 1: You're like, well, this is I mean, there's I don't
Speaker 1: it's not. Who knows how often you can just get that, yeah,
Speaker 1: to tell a story.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it is a rare, tragic confluence of things
Speaker 2: that led to this film. But I you know, I
Speaker 2: kind of believe that. And this is interesting. I'm usually
Speaker 2: not a person who thinks like this, but I sort
Speaker 2: of feel like this film. There's a story about Ajaca.
Speaker 2: Her mother always tells about how she was this. Ojika
Speaker 2: was a really vibrant, funny, bright person who had a
Speaker 2: lot of big dreams. She was young, you know, she
Speaker 2: was in her thirties, and she wanted better for herself
Speaker 2: and her family. And she used to talk to her
Speaker 2: call her mom every day. They were very close and
Speaker 2: they talk about her plans. She wanted to be an entrepreneur.
Speaker 2: She was going to you know, be world famous. And
Speaker 2: her mother would laugh at her sometimes, moms do you know,
Speaker 2: just like because of her ideas and you know, just whatever,
Speaker 2: and her she would say to her mom and was
Speaker 2: one of the last things she said to her, and
Speaker 2: she would say, wait, you know, you just wait, you laugh.
Speaker 2: But one day the whole world's going to know my name.
Speaker 2: So for us, we're left with that in her absence,
Speaker 2: and I kind of feel like she's a part of
Speaker 2: this somehow. She wanted the world to know her name,
Speaker 2: obviously never in this way, but that's become it's now
Speaker 2: on us to make that happen and to try to
Speaker 2: do more with her legacy and to make change in
Speaker 2: her name. So yeah, I think this film it has
Speaker 2: so much more. Every film is so important, but this film,
Speaker 2: in a way, there's a bit more weight on on
Speaker 2: how what we do with it and the impact.
Speaker 1: How are her kids like?
Speaker 2: It's it's I think it's up and down that for children.
Speaker 2: Children are both both incredibly resilient but also fragile and
Speaker 2: are not I mean, and this is and this would
Speaker 2: devastate anyone. So I think they are loved. They're deeply loved.
Speaker 2: The one incredible thing too, that we were able to do,
Speaker 2: which was part of my dream, was with this film.
Speaker 2: I had hoped that if we sold it, then we
Speaker 2: could give the money to the family because we had
Speaker 2: nothing to offer them otherwise, we didn't have any money.
Speaker 2: You know, we're just filmmakers. But the sale to Netflix
Speaker 2: that happened out of Sundown's allowed us to give the
Speaker 2: majority of the money to the grandmother and to the
Speaker 2: family so they could again these kids, children can have security,
Speaker 2: so they have that they are loved and taken care of.
Speaker 2: But there's struggle. There's emotional struggle, which will probably again
Speaker 2: it's going to take many years to hear.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. That kind of loss and
Speaker 2: that kind of trauma, you build resources and you build
Speaker 2: strength to work around it.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm haunted just talking about it
Speaker 1: at the moment by her son, at the moment she's
Speaker 1: shot and he's just gasping for air.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's it is to see children, and it's
Speaker 2: interesting that grief. We've had many conversations about it because
Speaker 2: that grief watching the children learn that their mother is
Speaker 2: not coming home is the most challenging thing I think.
Speaker 1: And that was on body camera footage, that moment with their.
Speaker 2: Father, just because the police were around them.
Speaker 1: Just you know, you're just sitting there and you're just
Speaker 1: that was a moment. I forgot it was body camera footage,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, wait a minute, was just so intimate, right,
Speaker 1: it was felt almost and then and then it's like, wow,
Speaker 1: was that police officer invading their space?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was he invading themself. But at the same
Speaker 2: time the police are ting comfort them. So I was like,
Speaker 2: it's weirdly human also, like it's a moment of humanity
Speaker 2: that I think where the police officers were trying to
Speaker 2: hug them and we're trying to console them, and didn't
Speaker 2: also didn't know what to do, you know, because it
Speaker 2: was such so heartbreaking. I think though, the it's interesting
Speaker 2: that footage because I think we are so numb to
Speaker 2: gun violence. Audiences react more to the grief than anything else.
Speaker 2: And we talked about it with Audjika's mother. I was like,
Speaker 2: do you want this in? Like should we remove this?
Speaker 2: This is the worst day of these children's lives and
Speaker 2: here it is, like do we want this out in
Speaker 2: the world. And she said to me, no, you leave
Speaker 2: that in.
Speaker 1: She was like, you leave that like Attil's mother.
Speaker 2: Yes. She was like, the world needs if they had
Speaker 2: to go through that, if my grandchildren had to live
Speaker 2: through that, the world can bear witness. You know, it's
Speaker 2: a society failing them. They need the world needs to know.
Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, whatever, you know, that's obviously
Speaker 2: it's her call.
Speaker 1: What do you want the average police officer to learn
Speaker 1: from this?
Speaker 2: I think that I would love this to be used
Speaker 2: as a tool for police training, and I think I
Speaker 2: do think there's multiple things at play here. I think
Speaker 2: a lot of police departments are not trained or equipped
Speaker 2: for these kinds of issues. They're civil, they see them
Speaker 2: as civil.
Speaker 1: And it was funny to even hear that once during
Speaker 1: the thing, well that's criminal, where Susan's trying so hard
Speaker 1: to like get that, Yeah, that's criminal. I'm here for that.
Speaker 2: You know what's interesting though, is we did have a
Speaker 2: police officer, a former law enforcement officer, approach. That's after
Speaker 2: a screening. He approached my producer and Elisa Payne and
Speaker 2: talked to her and she was nervous because you know,
Speaker 2: he came up and said, I I'm a I used
Speaker 2: to be in law enforcem And she.
Speaker 1: Was like, okay, here we go.
Speaker 2: That's to get a lecture. But he was like, you
Speaker 2: know what, after the third time Susan called here in
Speaker 2: this state and this was in Utah, he said, in
Speaker 2: this state she would have been flagged as a problem
Speaker 2: and she would have been interesting. She would have been ticketed,
Speaker 2: she would have been given a warning for abusing emergency services,
Speaker 2: for essentially calling for things that were founded, and she
Speaker 2: was like, and that the community would have been told
Speaker 2: they could file restraining order or charges against her for harassments.
Speaker 2: And that was that.
Speaker 1: How many states have laws like that?
Speaker 2: I didn't, you know, I don't know, but it's true.
Speaker 2: I do think and we have. I think I understand
Speaker 2: that in states, if you constantly call the police and
Speaker 2: it's unfounded, you can be you know, you become.
Speaker 1: Well, we've had I had to pay a fine because
Speaker 1: our alarm went off and our fire alarm went off
Speaker 1: when the fire department came, and I thought, well that
Speaker 1: in some ways that is reasonable. I just you know,
Speaker 1: that should be fined, and like I understood it. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh Jesus, I you know, I hate this
Speaker 1: thing anyway, you know, but I know we have some
Speaker 1: form of that here in Arlington.
Speaker 2: There's no real emergency, right there was, and I think
Speaker 2: she so they said that, And then I also believe
Speaker 2: that really there there should be alternative services to police,
Speaker 2: which are for again community disputes, mediation, mental health crises,
Speaker 2: that type of thing.
Speaker 1: I think that we don't have enough law enforcement officers
Speaker 1: and then they would have to hire I mean, that's like, right,
Speaker 1: we are we are so well, we're underfunded in things
Speaker 1: that we don't prioritize. That's right.
Speaker 2: Actually, well I don't know that we because police some
Speaker 2: police departments are very well funded, but the funding goes to,
Speaker 2: you know, it's only specific things. Some of that funding
Speaker 2: could go to again services that where you send out
Speaker 2: a social worker, a psychiatrist, you know, like and a
Speaker 2: team of nurses.
Speaker 1: Like.
Speaker 2: This is the kind of thing now here in New
Speaker 2: York we're talking about for people who are having or
Speaker 2: who are either unhoused or maybe having a mental health crisis,
Speaker 2: because otherwise they end up dead. If you call the cops,
Speaker 2: people get shot, you know, so there should be something
Speaker 2: else in place. And I feel like if the police
Speaker 2: are meant to deal with criminal stuff, first of all,
Speaker 2: you see, they don't prevent anything because Ajka ended up
Speaker 2: dead regardless, right, even though they.
Speaker 1: Came home, True it didn't work. They were responsive, You
Speaker 1: can't say they weren't responsive. So in that sense, good
Speaker 1: they were.
Speaker 2: They didn't prevent anything.
Speaker 1: They would try to de escalate in the moment. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: but they didn't have it didn't prevent yeah.
Speaker 2: Didn't They didn't have a solution.
Speaker 1: And also Susan, but I get the sense they almost
Speaker 1: felt like they couldn't impose a solution. They didn't. It
Speaker 1: wasn't they didn't know what to do. I did get
Speaker 1: the sense they didn't know what to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they are not they are not trained.
Speaker 1: Actually, I think we got we got a hint, and
Speaker 1: I'm curious. So there was a moment when one that's sorry,
Speaker 1: where one of the officers they leave. You know, this
Speaker 1: is probably the third time that they second or third visit.
Speaker 1: This is sort of early in the film, and the
Speaker 1: officer refers to her as an fing b.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of them says that, another one calls her a.
Speaker 1: Psycho, and then the audio abruptly cuts. I was curious,
Speaker 1: was that your editor there edit?
Speaker 2: That's she shut off?
Speaker 1: Was like, realized she was. She was probably saying something despair.
Speaker 1: It was like, god, she's a And then she like, so,
Speaker 1: I'm guessing they're like, well, if you're going to disparait
Speaker 1: you know, be careful getting caught on camera disparaging people
Speaker 1: or something. She then that means that's the police officer
Speaker 1: realizing I better shut this off before I get myself.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1: So there's a sense where the officers know who the
Speaker 1: party that's in the wrong here. They didn't know it,
Speaker 1: they don't have any Is it the law that's missing?
Speaker 1: Is it or is it their training? I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't what what do you think is the issue here?
Speaker 2: I think they never saw her as a threat. I
Speaker 2: think she was able to weaponize her as a nuisance, yeah,
Speaker 2: but not a threat. And she was able to weaponize
Speaker 2: her race and privilege to make that true. Had she
Speaker 2: been a person of color filming children and using hate
Speaker 2: speech against them and saying threatening things, I don't think
Speaker 2: this would have gone the way it did, or that
Speaker 2: she would have, you know, not been in it's more
Speaker 2: than a nuisance. And they also the police also didn't
Speaker 2: see the community is needing protection from her, you know.
Speaker 2: So I think this is unfortunately that they aside from
Speaker 2: lack of training, et cetera, et cetera. And they again
Speaker 2: they are our bar for the police. My husband says,
Speaker 2: this is so low that we often mistake they're polite.
Speaker 2: We missed stake their politeness for competence. You know, they
Speaker 2: didn't see her as a threat. Meanwhile, in Florida, you
Speaker 2: could go like like a toaster or microwave, so that
Speaker 2: could make anybody a threat, and even after she behaved
Speaker 2: radically driving her car into a fence, there was a
Speaker 2: scene where we saw that they didn't think about it.
Speaker 1: You know, she never got connected, like, hey is.
Speaker 2: A stemic issue.
Speaker 1: She's a she's uniquely broken. I go back to broken.
Speaker 1: I always like to use broken because I assume everybody
Speaker 1: has the potential and you know, so I usually try
Speaker 1: to go with broken. But she was something happened right
Speaker 1: she was not she was she did not process the
Speaker 1: way most people process, but she.
Speaker 2: Was left over here to fester right by them.
Speaker 1: Then saying, I guess is she alienated everybody in her
Speaker 1: own life? H I mean, it was not it and
Speaker 1: I don't to me, the footage doesn't lie. You didn't
Speaker 1: paint her as a loaner. But we never saw her
Speaker 1: with anybody, and that doesn't surprise me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we kN know. She attended a church, so there
Speaker 2: was you know, she was there was a community.
Speaker 1: Like she was clearly always miserable. I mean, if if
Speaker 1: kids playing drives you crazy, you've got your own issues.
Speaker 2: But I think the thing that's really important to say
Speaker 2: is to the system also failed her. The system failed
Speaker 2: Ajica and her family, and that viewpoint, but it failed her.
Speaker 2: She should have never had access to again, she should
Speaker 2: have never you know, if there had been an intervention,
Speaker 2: she would not be in jail for ostensibly the rest
Speaker 2: of her life.
Speaker 1: I mean, one law Florida did pass. Was there a
Speaker 1: red flag law after the Parkland shooting that has been
Speaker 1: quite effective in Florida. What happened, and she would have
Speaker 1: been a prime candidate, Uh, perhaps for it. Yeah, they knew,
Speaker 1: you know, and that is a question. Did they know
Speaker 1: she was a firearm owner because they could have found
Speaker 1: out that they chose.
Speaker 2: To, They could have fell out, but they just did not.
Speaker 1: They never chose to.
Speaker 2: But she also saw her play victim, right, She weaponized
Speaker 2: victimhood the minute she thought she was in trouble.
Speaker 1: Suddenly she welcomed to our welcome to our politics and
Speaker 1: social media.
Speaker 2: Everybody, Yes, weaponizing victimhood. And I think but that has
Speaker 2: been a strategy. I have to say, all like, it's
Speaker 2: part of white grievance, right, it's like and also white
Speaker 2: women and there and fear when you look at Emma
Speaker 2: Till's case, right has led white women. And as we
Speaker 2: you know, it's now termed Karen.
Speaker 1: Is a Karen. I saw that the kids were using
Speaker 1: Karen Karen.
Speaker 2: But it's been the weaponization of racism right since.
Speaker 1: Time neighbor named Karen. She hates that. I feel bad
Speaker 1: for her that her names now a pejorative.
Speaker 2: Hell Less people have been lynched because of a white
Speaker 2: woman said, Oh, I'm afraid. I don't feel safe. They
Speaker 2: you know, they whistled at me or he said he
Speaker 2: talked to me, you know. I mean, that's how I'm
Speaker 2: until died. So we think about this and and Susan
Speaker 2: was doing that. She was doing that, and it's like
Speaker 2: a modern version of that.
Speaker 1: So so what's next for you projects? I mean, I
Speaker 1: know most documentaries have like eight projects that they and
Speaker 1: they're waiting for see which one is going. Okay, this
Speaker 1: one's ripe, right, it's.
Speaker 2: Last year, I should say. My Message Pictures, which is
Speaker 2: Sam Pollard, Alisa Payne and myself and a con Kwon
Speaker 2: two is a longtime collaborator. We had Katrina Come Hell
Speaker 2: and High Water come out on Netflix in October. It
Speaker 2: was a very successful series. It was number one for
Speaker 2: them for a couple of weeks, or for at least
Speaker 2: a week, but it did really well for them. And
Speaker 2: then we also had a short come out The Devil
Speaker 2: Is Busy, which I co directed with Crystal and Hampton,
Speaker 2: my best friend from college, and that is also nominated
Speaker 2: for an Oscar. So I have two films that are nominated,
Speaker 2: which is apparently the first time it's ever happened for
Speaker 2: a woman, two films all right directed, So that is
Speaker 2: a huge you know again for me an honor also
Speaker 2: a little disappointed that I am the first. It should
Speaker 2: have happened already, but whatever, I'll take it.
Speaker 1: So it has to be yeah.
Speaker 2: And then we have the perfect So so now we are.
Speaker 2: So we're starting up. There is another documentary which will
Speaker 2: be announced in a couple of weeks that we're about
Speaker 2: to we're beginning on. And then we're also diving back
Speaker 2: into scripted. We have some because I come from scripted,
Speaker 2: Elisa comes from scripted sound as script so where ni
Speaker 2: Con was an animation producer, so we have we want
Speaker 2: to sort of branch out and back into other forms
Speaker 2: that we've always been part of.
Speaker 1: Well. One of the things that I've since leaving sort
Speaker 1: of the legacy media world is realizing that there are
Speaker 1: just a million ways to teach people, right and you know, film,
Speaker 1: especially with this younger generation that is much more visual
Speaker 1: than they are text. And there's I say that I'm
Speaker 1: not judging. You know, we all learn differently, we all
Speaker 1: absorb differently, and the visual medium as a story, you know,
Speaker 1: in telling stories in some way the best storytellers. We
Speaker 1: need now more than ever in order to educate the
Speaker 1: country about our history, educate people about our history. So
Speaker 1: in that vein, I mean where you know, this to
Speaker 1: me is it's an education film as much as it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's there to it's there to visually show
Speaker 1: you something that you can read about. This is not
Speaker 1: a new story, but this was told in a more powerful,
Speaker 1: in a different way, and in a way that is
Speaker 1: hopefully going to get absorbed by people who may not read.
Speaker 1: You know, a story I just had an author on
Speaker 1: not too long ago, the person who wrote about the
Speaker 1: barn that Emmett Till was killed in right Thompson. And
Speaker 1: it's a terrific book. But in some ways not everybody
Speaker 1: reads books.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's like how do we reach people? You know,
Speaker 2: Ryan Coogler told a really beautiful story. We were We
Speaker 2: have Sinners has been on the you know, we've sort
Speaker 2: of been on the road together and the team.
Speaker 1: You've been seeing you've been doing the circuit with Yes,
Speaker 1: Sinners is another that's awful, which is such a way
Speaker 1: to do horror.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a like again, such a thrill for us.
Speaker 2: But he talked about how in the neighborhood he grew
Speaker 2: up and like, there were elders who who actually because
Speaker 2: of lack of schooling or they had to leave school
Speaker 2: at an early age, you couldn't read. Like, they could
Speaker 2: run a business, they could navigate street signs, they could understand,
Speaker 2: they couldn't actually read and comprehend a book. But they
Speaker 2: had movies, right, Movies were their medium, you know, a
Speaker 2: medium for them to like gain information and think about
Speaker 2: the world and interact with it because they didn't have
Speaker 2: the privilege of learning how to read. And I thought
Speaker 2: that was so powerful and that I have there's some
Speaker 2: relation to that for me with like the women in
Speaker 2: my family who you know, again elder women not my
Speaker 2: mother's generation, but further back who might have been taken
Speaker 2: out of school at like a young age.
Speaker 1: They're supposed to you know, at the keep house or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so for them even movies were like an
Speaker 2: escape and something, you know, a medium that they could
Speaker 2: really be immersed in.
Speaker 1: So, is there a topic you haven't done that you
Speaker 1: want to tackle.
Speaker 2: I would like to do a comedy. I would like
Speaker 2: to do something I think I've in need. I would
Speaker 2: like to do a humorous movie. That's my That's one
Speaker 2: of the dreams that. Yeah, because the humor is so critical.
Speaker 2: Humor is revolutionary. So I feel like that is something
Speaker 2: that I would like.
Speaker 1: It's also another way to teach.
Speaker 2: Yes, it is, and it's been used in so many ways.
Speaker 2: I think about Whoopy Goldberg talks about moms Mabley, who
Speaker 2: was her icon, who used that platform of comedy to
Speaker 2: talk about deeply political things she would never have been
Speaker 2: able to talk about otherwise.
Speaker 1: So what me I to get a creator? And I'm
Speaker 1: very curious, how do you use AI? What are you
Speaker 1: comfortable with and what are you going to fight to
Speaker 1: the death on when it.
Speaker 2: Comes to side. We don't use that. I don't use
Speaker 2: that as in my filmmaking.
Speaker 1: So that does not Are you convinced you'll never use it?
Speaker 2: I I am right now convinced I'll never use it.
Speaker 2: But I can't predict the future, right.
Speaker 1: No, I mean I don't think any of us know
Speaker 1: how these Yeah, I do tools get changed on us?
Speaker 2: And you're yeah, right, and also too, does it just
Speaker 2: become so ubiquitous that we have no choice? I'm worried
Speaker 2: about that. I would like to say I will never
Speaker 2: use it. I and that is my stance. But there
Speaker 2: comes a point where you end up shut out, right,
Speaker 2: like if you, for example, like I know I will
Speaker 2: not have a cell phone, but then if you don't
Speaker 2: like it, actually.
Speaker 1: You have you just to navigate the world, Like now
Speaker 1: you can't not have one.
Speaker 2: You cannot have one, and my children too, Like it's interesting, even.
Speaker 1: In speaking of surveillance, I always say this, imagine if
Speaker 1: the government. Imagine if the government had said, we're you
Speaker 1: have to carry a phone with you all the time.
Speaker 1: What do you mean we have to carry a phone
Speaker 1: with us? Right? Yeah, yeah, we all did it follow entarilylievable.
Speaker 2: But I think but I think so that's the thing,
Speaker 2: like I right now, no, but twenty years from now.
Speaker 1: I mean you talked about you have a friend whage
Speaker 1: do an animation? I mean that that that scares me
Speaker 1: at how that will be the first I fear that's
Speaker 1: the first thing that falls.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the first to.
Speaker 1: Go because it's so expensive and labor intensive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, but I think we'll have to
Speaker 2: see it's up to our community, right, like we really
Speaker 2: have to make.
Speaker 1: Decisions well, and it's also up to the public hopefully.
Speaker 1: The stuff that's made with AI is you know, it's
Speaker 1: like you don't want to eat plastic fruit. No, no,
Speaker 1: And I think we've all learned, oh gross, it looks good,
Speaker 1: but probably right.
Speaker 2: They continue to see the value in what we do
Speaker 2: and don't want to replace.
Speaker 1: Us with well, and it goes like I said, it
Speaker 1: goes back to to take this back to the beginning
Speaker 1: as we land this plane that you know, I believe
Speaker 1: there's a premium on real life, in person, live authenticity,
Speaker 1: no editors, no anything, and in some case your body
Speaker 1: camera footage is all of that wrapped up. It is,
Speaker 1: you know, the the pushback against you know, manufactured content.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for saying that. That means a lot.
Speaker 1: Well, look, good luck and I know who I'm rooting for.
Speaker 1: That's good night.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: All right, it's great to get to know you talk