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Speaker 1: One of the more powerful documentaries that you will hear

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Speaker 1: about during the Academy Awards is called The Perfect Neighbor

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Speaker 1: and it is by the film Geeta gandiber Getha Gandibier.

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Speaker 1: My apologies there, and it is first of all, the

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Speaker 1: the film itself is unique because it's the type of

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Speaker 1: documentary I love best, meaning no talking hits. It is

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Speaker 1: a documentary of real footage and it's about a story

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Speaker 1: sadly in my home state of Florida and the standard

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Speaker 1: ground law will come into play here a minute. But

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Speaker 1: it's a story that's more. This is not a gun story.

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Speaker 1: This is a society story. This is a story of race,

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Speaker 1: This is a story of policing. This is a story

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Speaker 1: of how we live together as Americans. And it's incredibly

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Speaker 1: powerful and it couldn't have been done without bodycam footage.

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Speaker 1: So if you haven't seen it, it's on Netflix now.

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Speaker 1: I highly recommend it. It's powerful, it's disturbing, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's also heartbreaking. As we were just discussing its grief

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Speaker 1: and rage, as Geita will tell you, all wrapped up

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Speaker 1: in one and Giza joins me. Now, Gita, how did

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Speaker 1: I do introducing your film?

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Speaker 2: That was great? Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: You're first of all, it's nominated for all sorts of awards.

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Speaker 1: How important is an Academy award to you?

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Speaker 2: So the Academy Award is a huge honor. I think

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Speaker 2: it's every you know, it's a dream. Honestly, it's a

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Speaker 2: dream and sometimes feels like a pipe dream, you know,

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Speaker 2: in our in our field. But I think what makes

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Speaker 2: it so significant it's that it's our peers who vote right,

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Speaker 2: people that we admire, people that inspire us, our idols,

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Speaker 2: our colleagues, you know, so that community feels so meaningful,

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Speaker 2: and the idea that they choose your film of the many, many,

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Speaker 2: many disturbing films means so much. So that makes it

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Speaker 2: an incredible honor again a dream. I think beyond that though,

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Speaker 2: to all the awards really give us a platform to

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Speaker 2: talk about the issues that and the impact that we

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Speaker 2: want to have goes far beyond the film. We're really

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Speaker 2: hoping for change, that the film will be a vehicle

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Speaker 2: for change. So I think the the there's two things

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Speaker 2: that come into play with the awards. The just the

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Speaker 2: honor of it all, and so grateful that the platform

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Speaker 2: is equally important.

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Speaker 1: No, and you know, kudos to Netflix for making you know,

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Speaker 1: for promoting it. Not just there's one thing to just

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Speaker 1: put it on your streamer. It's another thing to actually

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Speaker 1: promoted and make sure people can see it.

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Speaker 2: Which they could have honestly, And this was an independent film.

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Speaker 2: We made this independently. My team Message Pictures, Park Pictures

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Speaker 2: joined us, SOB Productions also joined us. We were a

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Speaker 2: very small but mighty scrappy team for very little money.

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Speaker 2: We also got some development funding, but the from Peacock,

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Speaker 2: but they chose not to take the film ultimately, so

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Speaker 2: we but use it, you know, small resources. But the

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Speaker 2: Sundance Film Festival accepted the film and really give that platform.

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Speaker 2: That was our first premiere, and after that Netflix made

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Speaker 2: us an offer. So Netflix took it to the next

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Speaker 2: level again, a global platform.

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Speaker 1: Look, my head is in two different places. Like one part,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the decision to go without

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Speaker 1: a narrator and to use all the body cam footage.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, I do think we should spend

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Speaker 1: a few minutes on the story itself. Sure, and so

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Speaker 1: I want to begin with there, which is what did

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Speaker 1: you when did you become you know, how closely were

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Speaker 1: you following this story in real time in Marion County, Florida.

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Speaker 1: You know, I hate to say it, when I watched this,

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Speaker 1: it was a very you know, I knew a little

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Speaker 1: something about the story itself, so I knew I was

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Speaker 1: going to end. But that community, that fight, I've seen

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Speaker 1: that it's a very familiar thing. What was unfamiliar was

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Speaker 1: to see it chronicled, yeah, right in real time, and

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Speaker 1: that's what made it, I think so powerful. But I

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Speaker 1: am curious, what was your familiarity with the story at

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Speaker 1: different points in time while it was unfolding.

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Speaker 2: Sure, so there is a personal connection to this story

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Speaker 2: because Ajaca Owens was a family friend. So you were

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Speaker 2: involved from the minute that had happened. Unfortunately, from the

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Speaker 2: minute that.

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Speaker 1: You you knew immediately you were brought in. Did you

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Speaker 1: know about what was happening in that neighborhood before.

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Speaker 2: She was killed? No, we didn't, and we myself and

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Speaker 2: Mama said, we am talking about myself and my husband,

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Speaker 2: who's also a producer on the film that come onto

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Speaker 2: and my teammate message picture is Alisa Payne and Sam Pollard.

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Speaker 2: You're my producing partners. We got a distress call though,

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Speaker 2: from my sister in law who was best friends with

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Speaker 2: Ajaca Owens. And when I say sister in law, she's

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Speaker 2: really my cousin in law. But we culturally don't differentiate

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Speaker 2: like she's We're very close. That's my sister in law.

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Speaker 1: I've got cousins.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly so, but just you know, in case anybody

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Speaker 2: wants to, you know, wants to fact check it. Cousin

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Speaker 2: in law. But we got we got a call the

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Speaker 2: night that had happened, and We're immediately on the ground

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Speaker 2: trying to support the family and helping gathering the children

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Speaker 2: and getting Achica's mother into town. And also we were

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Speaker 2: very aware that the story needed to be in the

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Speaker 2: media because without media attention, cases like Ajica's often get

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Speaker 2: swept under the rung. I mean, there's so much gun violence,

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Speaker 2: unfortunately in our society that it's almost an everyday occurrence.

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Speaker 2: There's another story of somebody getting.

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Speaker 1: Shot and neighbor dispute with it turning into a deadly

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Speaker 1: gunshot is sadly almost it probably is a daily occurrence.

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Speaker 2: Daily occurrence, right more or less. So we were because

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Speaker 2: we work in media, our team, that's what we felt

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Speaker 2: we could do and how we could help. And Susan

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Speaker 2: was not immediately arrested because of stanyr ground laws. They

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Speaker 2: had to stand your ground investigation, and we have the

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Speaker 2: precedent of the Trayvon Martin case that happened in Florida,

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Speaker 2: so we were deeply concerned that there would be no

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Speaker 2: justice for Ajica. And then about two months later, Susan

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Speaker 2: was eventually arrested. About two months later, we received the

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Speaker 2: body camera footage from the family lawyers and who we

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Speaker 2: were still involved with the family and again still trying

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Speaker 2: to support the case because we didn't know. Again, we

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Speaker 2: were worried it might languish, you know, it could take

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Speaker 2: years for anything to happen. But the footage came to

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Speaker 2: us and they asked us to go through it. They

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Speaker 2: were like, can you look through it? Is there anything

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Speaker 2: in here for the media? And it was about thirty

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Speaker 2: hours of material, and I was shocked. I'd never seen

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Speaker 2: that much footage around a case before.

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Speaker 1: Can I just say, I'm I was oddly impressed with

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Speaker 1: how much there was and how you know, I'm a

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Speaker 1: cynic on this stuff. I assume all these guys are

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Speaker 1: going to turn it off when the real you know,

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Speaker 1: and they there was so much there. It felt real.

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Speaker 1: It felt like I got a real sense of how

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Speaker 1: Marion County Police officers handle these disputes.

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Speaker 2: Yes, now one percent, and they were there so often

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Speaker 2: because Susan called so often. But I think what struck

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Speaker 2: me is that you got to see in this footage

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Speaker 2: the community as they were before, and it was undeniable.

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Speaker 2: You got to see this beautiful multi racial community living together,

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Speaker 2: loving each other, acting like a big extended family, taking

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Speaker 2: care of the kids, you know, and you got to

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Speaker 2: see the kids playing outside, being precocious and funny, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I loved And because there is so much

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Speaker 2: gun violence, we are used to the grieving family. We

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Speaker 2: know the aftermath of what happens, but we never get

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Speaker 2: to see them before. And to me, the story of

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Speaker 2: this community and what they had to go through and

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Speaker 2: how one outlier who was emboldened by Stanley ground laws

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Speaker 2: plus combined with our access to guns, disrupted their whole world.

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Speaker 1: What did you know? What when did you know you

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Speaker 1: had a film?

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Speaker 2: Sure? So when when we saw the body camera.

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Speaker 1: Footage, immediately were like, this is I can do something

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Speaker 1: with that? No?

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Speaker 2: Because not because what Because like I said, it was

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Speaker 2: thirty hours. It came in a jumble, It came on

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Speaker 2: a thumb drive and there were folders. But there's the

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Speaker 2: cops unintentionally function like multi camera with the you know,

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Speaker 2: with the footage, because sometimes there were two of them unseen.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes there was a little it could be a little uh,

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Speaker 1: it was a little love. Don't I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say it, you know, sort of like wait what I mean?

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Speaker 1: You know it's sort of dizzying, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But this is again the nature, this

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Speaker 2: is not production footage, right, they just just it's pleas evidence.

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Speaker 2: But I spent about two weeks along with Nikon Kwan

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Speaker 2: two my again my producer and partner, stringing it into

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Speaker 2: a timeline. I used to be an editor, so I

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Speaker 2: pieced it together and synchronized all the footage and the sound,

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Speaker 2: and also took time to figure out the chronology. And

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Speaker 2: it was once we had the whole thing strung out

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Speaker 2: and we watched it down and we could understand the

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Speaker 2: chronology and what happened, that's when I was like, Aha,

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Speaker 2: the family.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things I was curious about is

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Speaker 1: that the family attorney immediately asked for body cam footage

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Speaker 1: for every incident that had ever taken place differ in

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Speaker 1: that neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I asked, of course for the court case, that's

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Speaker 2: what they would need, right, So they asked for everything,

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Speaker 2: and what you see in the film is pretty much

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Speaker 2: what we got. What the what the lawyers were given.

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Speaker 1: There was also some ring whether it's some doorbell cameras

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Speaker 1: or wing cameras as well.

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Speaker 2: Right, I was part of it also because that was

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Speaker 2: collected as evidence. But I think the thing that to

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Speaker 2: me that struck me was that I felt like the

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Speaker 2: footage played like a horror film. It played to me,

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Speaker 2: I thought of films. I come from a scripted background.

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Speaker 2: Originally I came up with Spike Lee and Sam Pollard.

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Speaker 1: And actually it had a Jaws vibe to me, the

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Speaker 1: original Jaws, right, which is the you know, the initial

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Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg horror creator of that moment of where you

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Speaker 1: don't see, you don't see the menace, but you know

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Speaker 1: it's coming out there. That's what I felt. Body came,

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Speaker 1: You're just like I had it. I just got the

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Speaker 1: Jaws vibe in that sense because you know it's building up,

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Speaker 1: but you don't know when it's coming, but you know

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Speaker 1: it's coming.

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Speaker 2: Nobody has said Jaws before. I love that. The references

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Speaker 2: for me were paranormal activity and you know things that

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Speaker 2: used and also the Blair Witch Project, like films that

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Speaker 2: were made sure that was meant to be found footage

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Speaker 2: or you know again CCTV footage, surveillance camera footage. So

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Speaker 2: those were sort of my references, and I wanted to

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Speaker 2: make something that was immersive, that would grip audiences and

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Speaker 2: hold them. Oftentimes, when we make documentaries, particularly if they're

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Speaker 2: social justice, sometimes people don't want to, you know, they

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Speaker 2: don't want to hear it, like or they're not interested,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: I that was Look, I had my wife. I was saying,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to watch this film an internet. She's like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Like you know, I know this story.

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Speaker 1: I don't know right, Like because you're right. And that's

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Speaker 1: why I'm like, no, people, you need to see this.

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Speaker 1: You need to see it because it's a groundmaking way

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Speaker 1: to make a movie. Number one. So there's a technical

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Speaker 1: aspect of this that's I mean, I'm not a voter,

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Speaker 1: but if I were to me, this is why to me,

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Speaker 1: it's an e're the easy winner simply because it's both

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Speaker 1: a technically you've done something new and interesting and different

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Speaker 1: in a basically because we now have all this stuff

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Speaker 1: we didn't. You know, you couldn't have made this with

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Speaker 1: with Trayvon Martin. It didn't exist. But one of the

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Speaker 1: other no, no, no, and so and then there's the powerful

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Speaker 1: story itself that you tell where you don't have to.

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Speaker 1: You're not trying, You're you're you're helping people get to

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Speaker 1: a place, but you're not preaching. You're not telling people

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Speaker 1: what should be, what to think. You're just showing you're

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Speaker 1: letting us decide what should be and you're like, that

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Speaker 1: wasn't right.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for that. Now we trust our audience. I

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Speaker 2: think that was a big part of it. We were

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Speaker 2: are beliefs that we could live in this body camera

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Speaker 2: footage and the you know, the police evidence footage. And

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Speaker 2: there was a couple of thoughts. One was that we

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Speaker 2: didn't want to go back and retraumatize the community by

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Speaker 2: making them relive it again interviewing them. They've they've already

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Speaker 2: been interviewed by detectives, they've lived it, like I didn't

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Speaker 2: want to to burden them with that. Then the other

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Speaker 2: part of it is we felt the body camera footage

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Speaker 2: was really undeniable. And right now we live in a

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Speaker 2: time where everything the media does is questioned, and with

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Speaker 2: this footage, there was no film crew on the ground,

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Speaker 2: right there was We were not there directing anything. So again,

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Speaker 2: because it is police evidence, you see things exactly as

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Speaker 2: they happened, no one, there was no outside journalist influencing,

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Speaker 2: So I think that makes it undeniable to audiences. And

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Speaker 2: also you can see in this footage again how this

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Speaker 2: community was oftentimes after after people of color in particular,

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Speaker 2: are victimized after a crime happens to us. We are

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Speaker 2: often criminalized and our children are adultified. And we felt

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Speaker 2: in the footage again the police did not mean to

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Speaker 2: capture this, but they did that. Again. This community, this

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Speaker 2: incredible community, and this like you have the mother who says,

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Speaker 2: you know, all these kids, they're all mine, and the

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Speaker 2: father comes out and is like, I look out for

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Speaker 2: these kids like they're my own. You see in footage,

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Speaker 2: even footage that Susan shot, the adults playing football with

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Speaker 2: the kids like it was and the kids are outside

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Speaker 2: having like you know, healthy connected fun.

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Speaker 1: And I think what all of our political leaders say, Hey,

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Speaker 1: kids seem to be outside more, not in front of

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Speaker 1: their screens. Right, these kids were outside.

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Speaker 2: They were outside, and I think and also you saw

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Speaker 2: a community of upstanders like Susan the two neighbors, and

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Speaker 2: it wasn't It's interesting because even though it is about race,

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Speaker 2: and Susan tried to weaponize race. You know, you see

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Speaker 2: the two neighbors that AA that lived on either side

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Speaker 2: of Ochica or white women and were complete upstanders.

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Speaker 1: What I saw it as is this is why it's

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Speaker 1: a familiar community to me in Florida. There are a

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Speaker 1: lot of this is just a working class middle sort

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Speaker 1: of what i've working class, you know, strivers is what

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Speaker 1: I would call it, right, working crash driver community who

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Speaker 1: like don't want to live in an apartment complex with

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Speaker 1: their kids, want their kids to have more of a

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Speaker 1: of a of a of a you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: that whatever whatever, the idealized version of growing up in

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Speaker 1: a neighborhood and all that stuff. And they're and you know,

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Speaker 1: these communities are all over Florida. It's sort of what

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Speaker 1: makes Florida an attractive melting pot to many people and

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Speaker 1: why they move. And it's affordable.

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Speaker 2: It's the best of us. It's really that's the American dream.

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Speaker 2: It's the best of us, right like a place where

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Speaker 2: and with that strong social network. I think Susan, on

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Speaker 2: the other hand, is sort of represents a microcosm of

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Speaker 2: all the bills that are plaguing our society. She kind

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Speaker 2: of holds the marita.

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Speaker 1: Two movies jumped out at me with her because there

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Speaker 1: have been attempts to sort of portray that character is

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Speaker 1: what I would call it right, we know this person exists,

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Speaker 1: This person lived in my neighborhood. We all had a

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Speaker 1: person like this, right, and you don't quite know what

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Speaker 1: they were, right. Ye had the Clint Eastwood movie where

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Speaker 1: he's the old man, uh boy Tornado or something like that,

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Speaker 1: where grand grandson, grand Tarino.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: And then I was thinking of the that Michael Douglas

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Speaker 1: movie right falling Down whatever, you know, the whole white grievance,

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Speaker 1: white rage. Right. She she felt like a very familiar character,

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Speaker 1: right that we'd seen portrayed. But here was here here

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Speaker 1: I think there's there's this assumption that maybe these folks

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Speaker 1: no longer exist.

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Speaker 2: No, well, she very very much must exist.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, did you want to what did you? I was?

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Speaker 1: I wanted to know more of like how did she

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Speaker 1: become so broken? She's broken, there's no doubt she's broken.

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Speaker 1: We don't know what's it.

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Speaker 2: We don't know this. You know, she moved into the

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Speaker 2: neighborhood two years before everything happened, and we don't have

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Speaker 2: much of her backstory, you know, Nor did we want

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Speaker 2: to speculate on it.

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Speaker 1: No, I get that too, but it's clear she some

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Speaker 1: somebody something something, She's broken. And you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know who knows when it happened, right, might have happened

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Speaker 1: years ago or two years ago.

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Speaker 2: You might just be racist though until.

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Speaker 1: Well, and that's the thing she got broken early. Then. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I always say you, you know, you have

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Speaker 1: to be raised a racist.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh.

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Speaker 1: I do believe that. I don't think because kids are

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Speaker 1: not racist unless they're caught it now.

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Speaker 2: And I appreciate you thinking of that as broken, because yeah,

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Speaker 2: it should be thought of that way. But I think

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Speaker 2: I was the one thing I wanted to say, though,

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Speaker 2: is that she also seemed to be someone who absorbed

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Speaker 2: a lot of the rhetoric that is coming from the

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Speaker 2: top down today in our country, which is manufactured fear

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Speaker 2: like weaponized racism again, and that those kind of things

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Speaker 2: combined with her access to weapons.

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Speaker 1: Plus we'll think about those law What was this the

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Speaker 1: incident in Saint Louis in Sance, Absolutely it was about

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Speaker 1: three years ago where the guy just shot and then

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Speaker 1: was the kid who went to the wrong door. It

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Speaker 1: was going to go It happened more.

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Speaker 2: It happened recently. There was a woman who was supposed

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Speaker 2: to clean someone's house and came to the door and

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Speaker 2: the man shutter the wrong house, like it is, this idea,

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Speaker 2: but the manufactured fear is a tool to divide us, right,

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Speaker 2: and when we fear our neighbors, when we like again,

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Speaker 2: then we're okay with them being kidnapped and put in

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Speaker 2: detention centers. Right, Like it's it's used the idea, and

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Speaker 2: it allows an authoritarian government to say things like, noah,

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Speaker 2: we'll protect you. We just need to get rid of

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Speaker 2: these people over here. So she seemed to be a

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Speaker 2: symptom of all those societal ills.

433
00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: And that is why, in some ways I wanted to

434
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: know more, like is she just sitting on her lounge

435
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: chair watching one feed of stuff? And you know, is

436
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: her information ecosystem very blinder oriented right now? You know?

437
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: But it struck me she never had anybody with her.

438
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there at once, now, when she was moving out

439
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 2: of the house, that was her sister. There was a

440
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: woman there who was her sister. But other than that

441
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,439
Speaker 2: that was that, we didn't see much of anybody near her.

442
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 2: But what's interesting, like I said, is there were other

443
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,959
Speaker 2: older women. There was another woman who was her neighbor

444
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 2: who appears in that same scene, who is an older

445
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: woman who similarly lives in that neighborhood. But she was

446
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 2: the only one. That is what is so interesting. She

447
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 2: is the only one who ever complained.

448
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: Right, which tells you, you know, says more about.

449
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 2: Her than anything else, and anything else, you.

450
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: Know, the try to me all, you know, your documentary

451
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: sort of makes the case that in some ways this

452
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: was a form of premeditation. Now we can debate that.

453
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 1: I get that that there's the letter of the law

454
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: and premeditation, but this was not manslaughter. And I think

455
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: we all know that. And yet I understand that the

456
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: state of Florida passed a law that tied the hands

457
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: of those prosecutors.

458
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think also I will say this, I

459
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: think the prosecution, from what happened in the Trayvon Martin

460
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 2: case and others, I think they went for the lowest

461
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: hanging fruit as well.

462
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: Because I wanted a conviction.

463
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 2: They wanted a conviction, and with Trayvon Martin, George Imermann

464
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: walked in the charge's murder. So I think with manslaughter

465
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: and Florida, manslaughter carries up to forty years, sorry, thirty years.

466
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: Manslaughter carries thirty years. So I felt I feel that

467
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 2: they thought they could get a conviction with manslaughter and

468
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 2: that they she would serve, she would still end up

469
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 2: with a long.

470
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: Sentence effectively life. Effectively, she was, you know, going to

471
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: be incarcerated for right.

472
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, for a sixty years old.

473
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: Right yeah, porty.

474
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 2: You know, as she ended up with twenty five. She

475
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 2: had not committed any other violent crime before, so I

476
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: think so. But the judge gave her the maximum that

477
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 2: he could and that was twenty five. So she will

478
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 2: be if you know again, where she to serve the

479
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 2: entire sentence, she would be eighty five once she gets out.

480
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: So let's say Governor Desantists watches this film. What do

481
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: you hope he takes away?

482
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 2: I hope he takes away the damage laws that Standard

483
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: Ground do to communities. I hope he takes away the

484
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,959
Speaker 2: fact that we need gun control, that that in Florida

485
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 2: you can buy a gun like you can buy a

486
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: toaster or a microwave. And there's a point you see

487
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: in the film where Susan is clearly behaving erratically and

488
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 2: there should have been a question around her buying. Again,

489
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 2: I also hope that folks take away Dessantas included how

490
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 2: policing works and how they could have and should have

491
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: caught Susan, you know, and seeing her as a threat

492
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 2: earlier on instead of just treating her like a nuisance.

493
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: But I think because they the police again were not

494
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 2: equipped to handle it. But they also brought there, you know,

495
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 2: they brought their own biases to the scene, and she

496
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: was able to weaponize them.

497
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting with them, you know, it was interesting

498
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: to hear how the officers saying, look, I'm going to

499
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: believe you, and I'm going to believe them. I remember

500
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: that was like it stuck out at me, and it's

501
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: like it it was a reminder of why it's important

502
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 1: for all of this to be on tape. Yes, all right,

503
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,239
Speaker 1: and again I go back. You and I both know

504
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: that if this happens ten years ago, there's every chance

505
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: in the world she's never charged.

506
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 2: Oh and if there was no footage, I don't know

507
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 2: that she would be charged. If you didn't see her erratic,

508
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: you know, her behavior, calling the cops again and again

509
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: and again, and if you didn't hear the community side

510
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: of the story, right this, Yeah, she could have walked

511
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 2: And this is we honestly, we didn't until the very end,

512
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: we had that in our hearts like we were. We

513
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 2: were like, she's probably going to get off, Like it's

514
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: no way, it's not possible. I was.

515
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 1: This is the story of the twentieth century. In these incidents,

516
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: they all walk, it felt like almost all the time. Yeah,

517
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: you know, this is why you know, I sit here

518
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: and it's like it's an imperfect body camera footage is

519
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: imperfect on all those things, but it's better.

520
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 2: And it's also incredibly relevant today when you think about

521
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: what's happening in Minnesota, when we were living in a

522
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: time where we have a government who will distort the

523
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: truth at any given moment freely, has no no moral

524
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: compass around doing that. You know, with the murders that

525
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: have happened in Minnesota, where I says murdered a number

526
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: of people, is in.

527
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 1: Fact that we're debating whether or not they should have

528
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: body cameras I know, and they're like, well, we'll put

529
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: them on, but we want to be able to could no, no, no,

530
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: We're putting that in your hands of deciding when those

531
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: cameras go on enough.

532
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: You need it at all, It should be on it

533
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: all times, because because like I said, there's there is

534
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: clearly audacity, you know of the powers that be, They

535
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 2: like again, they feel they can distort the truth at

536
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 2: any given moment to their advantage. And I think with

537
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: and body camera is still only in eight states, it's

538
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: only required in eight states that law enforcement wear it,

539
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: And it could not be more critical right now. And

540
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: it's it is a double edged sword for communities of

541
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 2: color because it's also a tool of surveillance.

542
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: And no, look, I think about this a lot, you know,

543
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: when it comes to privacy, but you and I Aron,

544
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: I fear that people younger than us have like, don't

545
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: don't view it as surveillance.

546
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: It's surveillance, yeah, and and it absolutely is. So it's

547
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 2: a double edged sword, particularly for vulnerable, the most vulnerable.

548
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: But I think right now, the particularly with the case

549
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 2: of Ice and what is happening and with who we

550
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: have in power, it is absolutely needed all law enforcement

551
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: and government agents should be required to wear it, is

552
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: my opinion.

553
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: A few sort of technical things about doing the film.

554
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: Every once in a while you would have body camera

555
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: audio and then it would just did you do sort

556
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: of just sort of almost file footage of the neighborhood

557
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: once or something? Yes, So we did.

558
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: There was we did shoot bee role of the neighborhood.

559
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: So some of the things we shot, we shot vigils,

560
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 2: we shot protests, the funeral, and we shot bee role

561
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: of the neighborhood. And some of that was for we

562
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: shot originally as to give to media to share with news,

563
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: because we wanted news organizations to to to talk about

564
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: what was happening. And then some of it we shot

565
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: afterwards just as part of the film so that we

566
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: could again sort of create texture and also people could

567
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: see what the neighborhood looked like.

568
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: What was the Was it a struggle to get everybody

569
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: to agree to allow their likeness to be used.

570
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 2: No, what's so interesting is that that community was really

571
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: like a family. We the body camera footage, we had

572
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 2: to sort of work in reverse and try and find

573
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: people I'd like, look at them and get them identified

574
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 2: and then find them. At some of the people. It's

575
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 2: interesting some people came to us redacted by the police,

576
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: like some of the footage the police had already we

577
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 2: had already redacted.

578
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: And interesting, why would they I think that was.

579
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: Us to redact all of it? I see it didn't happen,

580
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: so we so then, but if there were people that

581
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: we could not find, particularly children, we would.

582
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: Just redacted it.

583
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: We redacted it.

584
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: So that's so any of the blurred faces were not

585
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,719
Speaker 1: people that said no, you can't do this. It was

586
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: more of the other way.

587
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: It was more it was more people we can fund.

588
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: But there were one or two people who were worried

589
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: about it, and we wanted to We were respectful of them,

590
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 2: of course. I think though for the most part, the

591
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 2: community stood behind what we were doing. Like they really

592
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: loved each other and they we actually showed the film

593
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 2: to them before it aired on Netflix, and it was

594
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: very hard. They had a very visceral reaction to it,

595
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: but they afterwards they they kind of talked through it

596
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: and with each other and you know, had a lot

597
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: of memories. I think it was I think ultimately they

598
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 2: said it was therapeutic and that they wanted it out

599
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: in the world because they understood what we were doing,

600
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 2: and they said no other community should have to go

601
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: through that. There is only one family left on that block.

602
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 2: Everyone else has left.

603
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: They left, they moved.

604
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: How do you stay? And that's how So it's like

605
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:53,479
Speaker 2: the ripple effect.

606
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: What's your kids?

607
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, the ripple effect is enormous and that so that

608
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: beautiful communal again unity where kids came from all the

609
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: neighboring streets to play on that one block decimated.

610
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: Because they had the empty grass field. Every neighborhood has

611
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: that one and it yes there said but so, so you're

612
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: not sure. I don't know who owned it.

613
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: Actually it belonged to the neighbor. It belonged to Susan's

614
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 2: neighbor who allowed them to play there.

615
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: Who had said yes, yea.

616
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: So it was often out there with them like it was.

617
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: It was they had permission to be there.

618
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:32,239
Speaker 1: So, you know, I just think about you know, I

619
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: I often believe that it was a it was helpful

620
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: that I grew up in Miami. When I grew up

621
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: in Miami. I grew up in Miami in the in

622
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties, and we went through three race

623
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: riots in the eighties, all of which might not have

624
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: happened if there had been body camera footage. You know,

625
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about just that aspect, like, you know,

626
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: we ripped. Now, it's Miami a beautiful place today in

627
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: some ways because of the pain we all had to

628
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: go through in the eighties. I think there is there

629
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: you could make a case that in some ways it

630
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: is but I think about all this sort of lost

631
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: decade that we had, and how many and the destruction

632
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: of a couple of these communities, Liberty City in particular,

633
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: and and how it could have been avoided. Yeah, you know,

634
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: and so easily. Now, I mean, you know, I mean,

635
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: so that's what makes your film both there was like

636
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 1: a hopefulness to it, like look, this, this is this

637
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: is why we need body camera footage. We get a

638
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 1: fuller picture, you get the better story. You know who

639
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: the guilty party is. There's no question who's the instigator.

640
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: There's no question. This isn't it he said, He he said,

641
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: like Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman in that business. You know.

642
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: But it hasn't It doesn't eradicate racism.

643
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: No, no, unfortunately it doesn't. But I think they the

644
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 2: hope is that it might the film for us in

645
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 2: some ways, that it serves as a deterrence. And again

646
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: because of the outcome at the end of the trial,

647
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: where like maybe people will think twice about you know,

648
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 2: trying to trying to pervert the law, which is already

649
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: a problem in and of itself, but pervert standard ground

650
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: laws and use them claim self defense when you're actually

651
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: committing a crime, and that is the hope and again

652
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: and the ultimate hope is to have this law eradicated

653
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: state by state, and particularly because of the danger as

654
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: opposes your career.

655
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: You started working in scripted film with Spike Lee That's

656
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: Home and he is He had spent a lot of

657
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: time doing scripted social justice messaging, right, you know, And

658
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: what do you think is the more effect way to

659
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: get a message across? When is a documentary better than

660
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: better than scripted? And and is it you said something

661
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: earlier that that sort of hit me in this day

662
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: and age when we're not sure what to believe. You know,

663
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: in some ways the body camera footage is the most

664
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: believable material you could come up with. That tells me

665
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: that maybe the better way to to to to tell

666
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: a story is with is with is with real footage

667
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: rather than scripted you know, in the Manufacturer.

668
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: Book, I think they both. I love both mediums and

669
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 2: I think they both absolutely have their place. I think

670
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: if you have the material to make a really compelling documentary,

671
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 2: why not, particularly if you're telling a true story, because

672
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: I think people connect connecting to the fact that this

673
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 2: is someone's actual life. It impacts them differently, whereas if

674
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 2: it's actors or people. You know again, I love scripted

675
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 2: was where I started and so and I love it

676
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 2: so much. But if you have the means to tell

677
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 2: the story for real, you know, then why not why

678
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 2: not do that? You know? And I think I think

679
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: that truth is often stranger than fiction, you know, Like

680
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 2: I the this film to me is a study of

681
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 2: like you said, of a community of human behavior, of policying,

682
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,439
Speaker 2: like it has so many layers and yeah, and it's real,

683
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 2: right it is. It's this is stuff that actually unfolded.

684
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: Uh So I think that makes it really powerful. But

685
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 2: like like I said, I love both. I love both,

686
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: and so I'm always happy to see, you know again,

687
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: stories be told in multiple ways as creatively as possible.

688
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 2: I think it's really up to the vision of the

689
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: team and the director to decide.

690
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's funny. I think you set a

691
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: bar here that I wonder for yourself, is it is

692
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: it going to be if you want to do a

693
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: documentary about another topic and you don't have enough footage,

694
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: are you going to say, oh, geez, you know, I

695
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: don't know. If I don't, I don't want to go

696
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: back to the talking head.

697
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: I might need to tap out.

698
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: I feel like, I mean, I mean, in some ways, right,

699
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: You're like, well, this is I mean, there's I don't

700
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: it's not. Who knows how often you can just get that, yeah,

701
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: to tell a story.

702
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it is a rare, tragic confluence of things

703
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 2: that led to this film. But I you know, I

704
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: kind of believe that. And this is interesting. I'm usually

705
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 2: not a person who thinks like this, but I sort

706
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 2: of feel like this film. There's a story about Ajaca.

707
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: Her mother always tells about how she was this. Ojika

708
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 2: was a really vibrant, funny, bright person who had a

709
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: lot of big dreams. She was young, you know, she

710
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 2: was in her thirties, and she wanted better for herself

711
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 2: and her family. And she used to talk to her

712
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 2: call her mom every day. They were very close and

713
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: they talk about her plans. She wanted to be an entrepreneur.

714
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 2: She was going to you know, be world famous. And

715
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: her mother would laugh at her sometimes, moms do you know,

716
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 2: just like because of her ideas and you know, just whatever,

717
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 2: and her she would say to her mom and was

718
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 2: one of the last things she said to her, and

719
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: she would say, wait, you know, you just wait, you laugh.

720
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: But one day the whole world's going to know my name.

721
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 2: So for us, we're left with that in her absence,

722
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: and I kind of feel like she's a part of

723
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 2: this somehow. She wanted the world to know her name,

724
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 2: obviously never in this way, but that's become it's now

725
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: on us to make that happen and to try to

726
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: do more with her legacy and to make change in

727
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 2: her name. So yeah, I think this film it has

728
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 2: so much more. Every film is so important, but this film,

729
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 2: in a way, there's a bit more weight on on

730
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 2: how what we do with it and the impact.

731
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: How are her kids like?

732
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 2: It's it's I think it's up and down that for children.

733
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: Children are both both incredibly resilient but also fragile and

734
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: are not I mean, and this is and this would

735
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: devastate anyone. So I think they are loved. They're deeply loved.

736
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 2: The one incredible thing too, that we were able to do,

737
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 2: which was part of my dream, was with this film.

738
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: I had hoped that if we sold it, then we

739
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 2: could give the money to the family because we had

740
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,439
Speaker 2: nothing to offer them otherwise, we didn't have any money.

741
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 2: You know, we're just filmmakers. But the sale to Netflix

742
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 2: that happened out of Sundown's allowed us to give the

743
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 2: majority of the money to the grandmother and to the

744
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: family so they could again these kids, children can have security,

745
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: so they have that they are loved and taken care of.

746
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: But there's struggle. There's emotional struggle, which will probably again

747
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: it's going to take many years to hear.

748
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,680
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775
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776
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777
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780
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802
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Speaker 1: especially if you've got a growing family. I don't know

803
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Speaker 1: if you ever get over it, you just live with it.

804
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. That kind of loss and

805
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 2: that kind of trauma, you build resources and you build

806
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: strength to work around it.

807
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm haunted just talking about it

808
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: at the moment by her son, at the moment she's

809
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,959
Speaker 1: shot and he's just gasping for air.

810
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's it is to see children, and it's

811
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 2: interesting that grief. We've had many conversations about it because

812
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 2: that grief watching the children learn that their mother is

813
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: not coming home is the most challenging thing I think.

814
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 1: And that was on body camera footage, that moment with their.

815
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 2: Father, just because the police were around them.

816
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 1: Just you know, you're just sitting there and you're just

817
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: that was a moment. I forgot it was body camera footage,

818
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 1: and I'm like, wait a minute, was just so intimate, right,

819
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: it was felt almost and then and then it's like, wow,

820
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: was that police officer invading their space?

821
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was he invading themself. But at the same

822
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: time the police are ting comfort them. So I was like,

823
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 2: it's weirdly human also, like it's a moment of humanity

824
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 2: that I think where the police officers were trying to

825
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,479
Speaker 2: hug them and we're trying to console them, and didn't

826
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 2: also didn't know what to do, you know, because it

827
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 2: was such so heartbreaking. I think though, the it's interesting

828
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 2: that footage because I think we are so numb to

829
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:25,280
Speaker 2: gun violence. Audiences react more to the grief than anything else.

830
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 2: And we talked about it with Audjika's mother. I was like,

831
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: do you want this in? Like should we remove this?

832
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 2: This is the worst day of these children's lives and

833
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 2: here it is, like do we want this out in

834
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 2: the world. And she said to me, no, you leave

835
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: that in.

836
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: She was like, you leave that like Attil's mother.

837
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: Yes. She was like, the world needs if they had

838
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 2: to go through that, if my grandchildren had to live

839
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 2: through that, the world can bear witness. You know, it's

840
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 2: a society failing them. They need the world needs to know.

841
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, whatever, you know, that's obviously

842
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 2: it's her call.

843
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: What do you want the average police officer to learn

844
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: from this?

845
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 2: I think that I would love this to be used

846
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 2: as a tool for police training, and I think I

847
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 2: do think there's multiple things at play here. I think

848
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 2: a lot of police departments are not trained or equipped

849
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 2: for these kinds of issues. They're civil, they see them

850
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 2: as civil.

851
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: And it was funny to even hear that once during

852
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,439
Speaker 1: the thing, well that's criminal, where Susan's trying so hard

853
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: to like get that, Yeah, that's criminal. I'm here for that.

854
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 2: You know what's interesting though, is we did have a

855
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: police officer, a former law enforcement officer, approach. That's after

856
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 2: a screening. He approached my producer and Elisa Payne and

857
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 2: talked to her and she was nervous because you know,

858
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 2: he came up and said, I I'm a I used

859
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 2: to be in law enforcem And she.

860
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 1: Was like, okay, here we go.

861
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 2: That's to get a lecture. But he was like, you

862
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: know what, after the third time Susan called here in

863
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 2: this state and this was in Utah, he said, in

864
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 2: this state she would have been flagged as a problem

865
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 2: and she would have been interesting. She would have been ticketed,

866
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 2: she would have been given a warning for abusing emergency services,

867
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: for essentially calling for things that were founded, and she

868
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 2: was like, and that the community would have been told

869
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 2: they could file restraining order or charges against her for harassments.

870
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 2: And that was that.

871
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: How many states have laws like that?

872
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 2: I didn't, you know, I don't know, but it's true.

873
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 2: I do think and we have. I think I understand

874
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 2: that in states, if you constantly call the police and

875
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: it's unfounded, you can be you know, you become.

876
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 1: Well, we've had I had to pay a fine because

877
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: our alarm went off and our fire alarm went off

878
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: when the fire department came, and I thought, well that

879
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: in some ways that is reasonable. I just you know,

880
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: that should be fined, and like I understood it. I

881
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 1: was like, oh Jesus, I you know, I hate this

882
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: thing anyway, you know, but I know we have some

883
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 1: form of that here in Arlington.

884
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 2: There's no real emergency, right there was, and I think

885
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 2: she so they said that, And then I also believe

886
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 2: that really there there should be alternative services to police,

887
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 2: which are for again community disputes, mediation, mental health crises,

888
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:13,439
Speaker 2: that type of thing.

889
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: I think that we don't have enough law enforcement officers

890
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: and then they would have to hire I mean, that's like, right,

891
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: we are we are so well, we're underfunded in things

892
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: that we don't prioritize. That's right.

893
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 2: Actually, well I don't know that we because police some

894
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 2: police departments are very well funded, but the funding goes to,

895
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: you know, it's only specific things. Some of that funding

896
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 2: could go to again services that where you send out

897
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 2: a social worker, a psychiatrist, you know, like and a

898
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 2: team of nurses.

899
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: Like.

900
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 2: This is the kind of thing now here in New

901
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 2: York we're talking about for people who are having or

902
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: who are either unhoused or maybe having a mental health crisis,

903
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 2: because otherwise they end up dead. If you call the cops,

904
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 2: people get shot, you know, so there should be something

905
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 2: else in place. And I feel like if the police

906
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 2: are meant to deal with criminal stuff, first of all,

907
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 2: you see, they don't prevent anything because Ajka ended up

908
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 2: dead regardless, right, even though they.

909
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: Came home, True it didn't work. They were responsive, You

910
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: can't say they weren't responsive. So in that sense, good

911
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: they were.

912
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:17,760
Speaker 2: They didn't prevent anything.

913
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: They would try to de escalate in the moment. Oh yeah,

914
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: but they didn't have it didn't prevent yeah.

915
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: Didn't They didn't have a solution.

916
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,479
Speaker 1: And also Susan, but I get the sense they almost

917
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: felt like they couldn't impose a solution. They didn't. It

918
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: wasn't they didn't know what to do. I did get

919
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: the sense they didn't know what to do.

920
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, they are not they are not trained.

921
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: Actually, I think we got we got a hint, and

922
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: I'm curious. So there was a moment when one that's sorry,

923
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: where one of the officers they leave. You know, this

924
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,479
Speaker 1: is probably the third time that they second or third visit.

925
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 1: This is sort of early in the film, and the

926
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: officer refers to her as an fing b.

927
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of them says that, another one calls her a.

928
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: Psycho, and then the audio abruptly cuts. I was curious,

929
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: was that your editor there edit?

930
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 2: That's she shut off?

931
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: Was like, realized she was. She was probably saying something despair.

932
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: It was like, god, she's a And then she like, so,

933
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: I'm guessing they're like, well, if you're going to disparait

934
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: you know, be careful getting caught on camera disparaging people

935
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: or something. She then that means that's the police officer

936
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 1: realizing I better shut this off before I get myself.

937
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

938
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: So there's a sense where the officers know who the

939
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: party that's in the wrong here. They didn't know it,

940
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: they don't have any Is it the law that's missing?

941
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: Is it or is it their training? I mean, I

942
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: don't what what do you think is the issue here?

943
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 2: I think they never saw her as a threat. I

944
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 2: think she was able to weaponize her as a nuisance, yeah,

945
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: but not a threat. And she was able to weaponize

946
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 2: her race and privilege to make that true. Had she

947
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 2: been a person of color filming children and using hate

948
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 2: speech against them and saying threatening things, I don't think

949
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 2: this would have gone the way it did, or that

950
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 2: she would have, you know, not been in it's more

951
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 2: than a nuisance. And they also the police also didn't

952
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 2: see the community is needing protection from her, you know.

953
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 2: So I think this is unfortunately that they aside from

954
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 2: lack of training, et cetera, et cetera. And they again

955
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 2: they are our bar for the police. My husband says,

956
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 2: this is so low that we often mistake they're polite.

957
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 2: We missed stake their politeness for competence. You know, they

958
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 2: didn't see her as a threat. Meanwhile, in Florida, you

959
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 2: could go like like a toaster or microwave, so that

960
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 2: could make anybody a threat, and even after she behaved

961
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 2: radically driving her car into a fence, there was a

962
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 2: scene where we saw that they didn't think about it.

963
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: You know, she never got connected, like, hey is.

964
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 2: A stemic issue.

965
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: She's a she's uniquely broken. I go back to broken.

966
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: I always like to use broken because I assume everybody

967
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 1: has the potential and you know, so I usually try

968
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: to go with broken. But she was something happened right

969
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: she was not she was she did not process the

970
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: way most people process, but she.

971
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,879
Speaker 2: Was left over here to fester right by them.

972
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 1: Then saying, I guess is she alienated everybody in her

973
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 1: own life? H I mean, it was not it and

974
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: I don't to me, the footage doesn't lie. You didn't

975
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: paint her as a loaner. But we never saw her

976
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: with anybody, and that doesn't surprise me.

977
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we kN know. She attended a church, so there

978
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 2: was you know, she was there was a community.

979
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 1: Like she was clearly always miserable. I mean, if if

980
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 1: kids playing drives you crazy, you've got your own issues.

981
00:52:58,000 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 2: But I think the thing that's really important to say

982
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 2: is to the system also failed her. The system failed

983
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 2: Ajica and her family, and that viewpoint, but it failed her.

984
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 2: She should have never had access to again, she should

985
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 2: have never you know, if there had been an intervention,

986
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 2: she would not be in jail for ostensibly the rest

987
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 2: of her life.

988
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: I mean, one law Florida did pass. Was there a

989
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: red flag law after the Parkland shooting that has been

990
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: quite effective in Florida. What happened, and she would have

991
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: been a prime candidate, Uh, perhaps for it. Yeah, they knew,

992
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: you know, and that is a question. Did they know

993
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: she was a firearm owner because they could have found

994
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: out that they chose.

995
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 2: To, They could have fell out, but they just did not.

996
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 1: They never chose to.

997
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 2: But she also saw her play victim, right, She weaponized

998
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 2: victimhood the minute she thought she was in trouble.

999
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: Suddenly she welcomed to our welcome to our politics and

1000
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: social media.

1001
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 2: Everybody, Yes, weaponizing victimhood. And I think but that has

1002
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 2: been a strategy. I have to say, all like, it's

1003
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 2: part of white grievance, right, it's like and also white

1004
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,359
Speaker 2: women and there and fear when you look at Emma

1005
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,800
Speaker 2: Till's case, right has led white women. And as we

1006
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 2: you know, it's now termed Karen.

1007
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: Is a Karen. I saw that the kids were using

1008
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 1: Karen Karen.

1009
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 2: But it's been the weaponization of racism right since.

1010
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: Time neighbor named Karen. She hates that. I feel bad

1011
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: for her that her names now a pejorative.

1012
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 2: Hell Less people have been lynched because of a white

1013
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 2: woman said, Oh, I'm afraid. I don't feel safe. They

1014
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 2: you know, they whistled at me or he said he

1015
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 2: talked to me, you know. I mean, that's how I'm

1016
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,320
Speaker 2: until died. So we think about this and and Susan

1017
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 2: was doing that. She was doing that, and it's like

1018
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 2: a modern version of that.

1019
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: So so what's next for you projects? I mean, I

1020
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: know most documentaries have like eight projects that they and

1021
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 1: they're waiting for see which one is going. Okay, this

1022
00:54:58,239 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: one's ripe, right, it's.

1023
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 2: Last year, I should say. My Message Pictures, which is

1024
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,839
Speaker 2: Sam Pollard, Alisa Payne and myself and a con Kwon

1025
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 2: two is a longtime collaborator. We had Katrina Come Hell

1026
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 2: and High Water come out on Netflix in October. It

1027
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 2: was a very successful series. It was number one for

1028
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 2: them for a couple of weeks, or for at least

1029
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 2: a week, but it did really well for them. And

1030
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 2: then we also had a short come out The Devil

1031
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 2: Is Busy, which I co directed with Crystal and Hampton,

1032
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 2: my best friend from college, and that is also nominated

1033
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,320
Speaker 2: for an Oscar. So I have two films that are nominated,

1034
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 2: which is apparently the first time it's ever happened for

1035
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 2: a woman, two films all right directed, So that is

1036
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,479
Speaker 2: a huge you know again for me an honor also

1037
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 2: a little disappointed that I am the first. It should

1038
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 2: have happened already, but whatever, I'll take it.

1039
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,280
Speaker 1: So it has to be yeah.

1040
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 2: And then we have the perfect So so now we are.

1041
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 2: So we're starting up. There is another documentary which will

1042
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 2: be announced in a couple of weeks that we're about

1043
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 2: to we're beginning on. And then we're also diving back

1044
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,240
Speaker 2: into scripted. We have some because I come from scripted,

1045
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 2: Elisa comes from scripted sound as script so where ni

1046
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,439
Speaker 2: Con was an animation producer, so we have we want

1047
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 2: to sort of branch out and back into other forms

1048
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 2: that we've always been part of.

1049
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 1: Well. One of the things that I've since leaving sort

1050
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:25,879
Speaker 1: of the legacy media world is realizing that there are

1051
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: just a million ways to teach people, right and you know, film,

1052
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,760
Speaker 1: especially with this younger generation that is much more visual

1053
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 1: than they are text. And there's I say that I'm

1054
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: not judging. You know, we all learn differently, we all

1055
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 1: absorb differently, and the visual medium as a story, you know,

1056
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: in telling stories in some way the best storytellers. We

1057
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: need now more than ever in order to educate the

1058
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: country about our history, educate people about our history. So

1059
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 1: in that vein, I mean where you know, this to

1060
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 1: me is it's an education film as much as it's

1061
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:07,839
Speaker 1: you know, it's there to it's there to visually show

1062
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 1: you something that you can read about. This is not

1063
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: a new story, but this was told in a more powerful,

1064
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: in a different way, and in a way that is

1065
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: hopefully going to get absorbed by people who may not read.

1066
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: You know, a story I just had an author on

1067
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 1: not too long ago, the person who wrote about the

1068
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 1: barn that Emmett Till was killed in right Thompson. And

1069
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 1: it's a terrific book. But in some ways not everybody

1070
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 1: reads books.

1071
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's like how do we reach people? You know,

1072
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 2: Ryan Coogler told a really beautiful story. We were We

1073
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 2: have Sinners has been on the you know, we've sort

1074
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 2: of been on the road together and the team.

1075
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 1: You've been seeing you've been doing the circuit with Yes,

1076
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: Sinners is another that's awful, which is such a way

1077
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 1: to do horror.

1078
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a like again, such a thrill for us.

1079
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 2: But he talked about how in the neighborhood he grew

1080
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 2: up and like, there were elders who who actually because

1081
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 2: of lack of schooling or they had to leave school

1082
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 2: at an early age, you couldn't read. Like, they could

1083
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 2: run a business, they could navigate street signs, they could understand,

1084
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 2: they couldn't actually read and comprehend a book. But they

1085
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 2: had movies, right, Movies were their medium, you know, a

1086
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 2: medium for them to like gain information and think about

1087
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 2: the world and interact with it because they didn't have

1088
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 2: the privilege of learning how to read. And I thought

1089
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 2: that was so powerful and that I have there's some

1090
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 2: relation to that for me with like the women in

1091
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 2: my family who you know, again elder women not my

1092
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 2: mother's generation, but further back who might have been taken

1093
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 2: out of school at like a young age.

1094
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 1: They're supposed to you know, at the keep house or something.

1095
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so for them even movies were like an

1096
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 2: escape and something, you know, a medium that they could

1097
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 2: really be immersed in.

1098
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: So, is there a topic you haven't done that you

1099
00:58:59,320 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: want to tackle.

1100
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 2: I would like to do a comedy. I would like

1101
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 2: to do something I think I've in need. I would

1102
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 2: like to do a humorous movie. That's my That's one

1103
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 2: of the dreams that. Yeah, because the humor is so critical.

1104
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 2: Humor is revolutionary. So I feel like that is something

1105
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 2: that I would like.

1106
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: It's also another way to teach.

1107
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 2: Yes, it is, and it's been used in so many ways.

1108
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:30,479
Speaker 2: I think about Whoopy Goldberg talks about moms Mabley, who

1109
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 2: was her icon, who used that platform of comedy to

1110
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 2: talk about deeply political things she would never have been

1111
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 2: able to talk about otherwise.

1112
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:43,919
Speaker 1: So what me I to get a creator? And I'm

1113
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 1: very curious, how do you use AI? What are you

1114
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: comfortable with and what are you going to fight to

1115
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 1: the death on when it.

1116
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 2: Comes to side. We don't use that. I don't use

1117
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 2: that as in my filmmaking.

1118
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: So that does not Are you convinced you'll never use it?

1119
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 2: I I am right now convinced I'll never use it.

1120
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 2: But I can't predict the future, right.

1121
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 1: No, I mean I don't think any of us know

1122
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: how these Yeah, I do tools get changed on us?

1123
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 2: And you're yeah, right, and also too, does it just

1124
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,959
Speaker 2: become so ubiquitous that we have no choice? I'm worried

1125
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 2: about that. I would like to say I will never

1126
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 2: use it. I and that is my stance. But there

1127
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 2: comes a point where you end up shut out, right,

1128
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 2: like if you, for example, like I know I will

1129
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 2: not have a cell phone, but then if you don't

1130
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 2: like it, actually.

1131
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: You have you just to navigate the world, Like now

1132
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: you can't not have one.

1133
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 2: You cannot have one, and my children too, Like it's interesting, even.

1134
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 1: In speaking of surveillance, I always say this, imagine if

1135
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 1: the government. Imagine if the government had said, we're you

1136
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 1: have to carry a phone with you all the time.

1137
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 1: What do you mean we have to carry a phone

1138
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 1: with us? Right? Yeah, yeah, we all did it follow entarilylievable.

1139
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 2: But I think but I think so that's the thing,

1140
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 2: like I right now, no, but twenty years from now.

1141
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: I mean you talked about you have a friend whage

1142
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: do an animation? I mean that that that scares me

1143
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: at how that will be the first I fear that's

1144
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 1: the first thing that falls.

1145
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the first to.

1146
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 1: Go because it's so expensive and labor intensive.

1147
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, but I think we'll have to

1148
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 2: see it's up to our community, right, like we really

1149
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 2: have to make.

1150
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:34,440
Speaker 1: Decisions well, and it's also up to the public hopefully.

1151
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 1: The stuff that's made with AI is you know, it's

1152
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 1: like you don't want to eat plastic fruit. No, no,

1153
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 1: And I think we've all learned, oh gross, it looks good,

1154
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 1: but probably right.

1155
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 2: They continue to see the value in what we do

1156
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 2: and don't want to replace.

1157
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 1: Us with well, and it goes like I said, it

1158
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 1: goes back to to take this back to the beginning

1159
01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: as we land this plane that you know, I believe

1160
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 1: there's a premium on real life, in person, live authenticity,

1161
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 1: no editors, no anything, and in some case your body

1162
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 1: camera footage is all of that wrapped up. It is,

1163
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 1: you know, the the pushback against you know, manufactured content.

1164
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for saying that. That means a lot.

1165
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 1: Well, look, good luck and I know who I'm rooting for.

1166
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 1: That's good night.

1167
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

1168
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 1: All right, it's great to get to know you talk