Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season two eighty one,
Speaker 1: Episode two of The Daily Site Geist. This is still
Speaker 1: a production the iHeartRadio. It's still a podcast where we
Speaker 1: still take a deep dive into America's shared consciousness. It's Tuesday,
Speaker 1: March twenty eight, twenty twenty three. I feel like Jack
Speaker 1: wasn't really telling you what national day is because sometimes
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. But I'll just tell you what it is.
Speaker 1: It's National Black forest Cake Day, National Weed Appreciation Day,
Speaker 1: not cannabis, but just the weeds that grow in your yards.
Speaker 1: American Diabetes Association Alert Day, and National Triglycerides Day Wow.
Speaker 1: And something on a Stick Day for those of you
Speaker 1: that indulge with things on sticks like marshmallows or carrots
Speaker 1: or whatever, what have you. My name is Miles Gray
Speaker 1: aka the Heartbroup Heartbroken Brewing as I watched UCLA crash
Speaker 1: out of Gonzaga on Thursday. But I am back, and
Speaker 1: I am still Hideo NoHo, and I am thrilled to
Speaker 1: be joined by my college today. A hilarious comedian, someone
Speaker 1: who's doing good whenever they possibly can, and a wonderful host.
Speaker 1: Uh oh my god, forgive me. What's the stand up
Speaker 1: show again. I've been on leave too long. I'll introduce you. First.
Speaker 1: It's plain thank you. First of all, that just reminds
Speaker 1: me that my tred list rides are high. And second,
Speaker 1: all carrots on a stick, bro, have more fun. What
Speaker 1: are you doing is a stick? Oh wow? So you
Speaker 1: would okay, stick, if you're going to improve upon the form,
Speaker 1: you would put something upon the carrot, upon the carrot.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. Okay, but engineer mine, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Yes? Yes, what was a stand up
Speaker 1: show again? So I have a city council. It's a podcast.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but I've been real lazy
Speaker 1: about it. So nobody get mad at me. I get it,
Speaker 1: I get it, I get it. Play we have we
Speaker 1: got one of those guests that come on. We're like, oh,
Speaker 1: we got someone smart, we got someone that's an expert,
Speaker 1: someone who I can ask questions to, like white technology,
Speaker 1: making me sad, because that's exactly what we're going to
Speaker 1: be doing today. We have to introduce our guests. She
Speaker 1: is the Technology, Privacy and Policy Professor of Law Code,
Speaker 1: director of the Institute for Privacy Protection, and co director
Speaker 1: of the Gibbons Institute of Law. Science and Technology at
Speaker 1: Seton Hall University and the author of the book Unwired
Speaker 1: Gaining Control over Addictive Technologies. Please welcome, Guya Burnsday guy, welcome,
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you for having me. Oh, thank you
Speaker 1: for blessing us on this second rate podcast with your
Speaker 1: first rate acumen. But yes, we really appreciate you stopping by.
Speaker 1: I like that she comes with her own AKA. She
Speaker 1: had so many titles, I know, yeah, yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 1: like those are legit over here. I'm saying, like I'm
Speaker 1: the lord of lancershim Boulevard. That's not a real thing,
Speaker 1: but for the people in North Hollywood, California, they know
Speaker 1: it is. But guya, welcome to the show. Where are
Speaker 1: you coming to us from today? From New York City
Speaker 1: all the way? Okay, okay um, And yeah, we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about your book and some other
Speaker 1: technology things as we get into it. But how has
Speaker 1: it been, you know, doing doing a few interviews, getting
Speaker 1: out there talking with interesting people? Are we the most
Speaker 1: interesting people you've spoken with so far? Without really being
Speaker 1: ten minutes into a conversation, can we for sure? You're
Speaker 1: the funniest nobody? Okay, y, that's all I ever wanted. Well,
Speaker 1: you're the funniest for sure. Okay, well, gaya, we are
Speaker 1: going to get to know you a little bit better.
Speaker 1: But first we're gonna tell people some of the things
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about. First, the Pope's puffy jacket, No,
Speaker 1: he is not. His style is not that lit. Although
Speaker 1: I guess many people would love if the pont Effects
Speaker 1: was doing a pontifflex upon us mortals on planet Earth.
Speaker 1: But we'll talk about that AI generated image. I just
Speaker 1: remember some people the evolution of people being like I
Speaker 1: can't believe it to them like, oh, yeah, I knew
Speaker 1: that was AI the whole time. Yeah, I knew. I
Speaker 1: knew the slippery slope that we're all, are you finding
Speaker 1: ourselves on in the last couple of weeks. With that,
Speaker 1: we'll also talk about Apple, because it seems like they're
Speaker 1: also ignoring the total lack of enthusiasm for virtual reality
Speaker 1: headsets with their upcoming you know, mixed reality headset that
Speaker 1: I can't believe they're still insisting is something we might want.
Speaker 1: But we'll talk a little bit about that and the
Speaker 1: you know, lack of confidence that some of the people
Speaker 1: working on it are experiencing. And then gotta talk to
Speaker 1: Gaya about Look, I'm a new parent. I'm very aware
Speaker 1: of you know, just how many other parents too or
Speaker 1: talk about screen time. I was raised by my mother
Speaker 1: like saying, don't watch the TV. It's going to rot
Speaker 1: your brain. And how all of these things have evolved.
Speaker 1: So I'm really interested in talking to you about sort
Speaker 1: of the evolution of our addictive technologies and kind of
Speaker 1: we're you know, hurtling towards this very isolated way of living,
Speaker 1: because that's something we talk about a lot from the show.
Speaker 1: But first, Guya, we gotta ask you, Professor Guya Birdstein Party,
Speaker 1: what is something from your search history that might reveal
Speaker 1: something about who you are, what you're into right now?
Speaker 1: So you know, I like this question because I remember
Speaker 1: going to a conference and seeing a slide and having
Speaker 1: the Google search, but instead it said I confess. So basically,
Speaker 1: whatever is in our search is like what's going for
Speaker 1: our brains, and there's nothing special in my chest. Basically
Speaker 1: it shows how my brain just jumps from one thing
Speaker 1: to another. So I would be researching a privacy class,
Speaker 1: so I would look for a movie about drones. Then
Speaker 1: I remember, I know this person. I wrote an article
Speaker 1: so I will switch to googling their name, and then
Speaker 1: a minute later, I'll remember that I have to feed
Speaker 1: my kids, and there's this fish in the fridge and
Speaker 1: of a recipe, so I look for the recipe, and
Speaker 1: then I recall that I never got grocery, so I
Speaker 1: switched to googling the fresh Direct. So and all of
Speaker 1: this happens in ten minutes. So really this you can
Speaker 1: see how my brain operates from this? Sure? Sure? And
Speaker 1: do you It is funny when you can kind of
Speaker 1: look at your own stream of consciousness via Google searches
Speaker 1: and you're like, wow, I had I had an interesting
Speaker 1: two hours right there from like looking at wait, so
Speaker 1: what's this? What kind of drone stuff were you looking up? Well?
Speaker 1: I was looking up for I teach about privacy and drones.
Speaker 1: And actually the first time I showed my student drones
Speaker 1: it was when COVID nineteen broke in China, and I
Speaker 1: just was the only video I found online. So they
Speaker 1: started to show it to them, never realizing that a
Speaker 1: month later this is going to be here, and this
Speaker 1: was just showing them how drones can basically fly over
Speaker 1: an empty city and how it looks and how it
Speaker 1: takes pictures and it was shocking to know what happened next. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what kind of privacy laws are there with drones, because
Speaker 1: I feel like it's I get that, like you're not
Speaker 1: supposed to do like fly drones in certain areas, but
Speaker 1: like in LA, I see so many people like in
Speaker 1: residential areas, Like I'll hear the were of like a
Speaker 1: drone and it's like what I saw on like the
Speaker 1: murder Trial documentary had like drones that were flying and
Speaker 1: watching as people remove funds from a place, like it
Speaker 1: was like legit evidence and it was just a dude
Speaker 1: with a drone. Yeah, there's not enough. The main thing
Speaker 1: has to do is registered with the FAA, but it's
Speaker 1: not Basically you can do a lot with the drone
Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, the kid with a drone right exactly.
Speaker 1: And I see like, but then I see videos or
Speaker 1: people are like I took a drone down that was
Speaker 1: above my home, And part of me is like, I
Speaker 1: guess that's fair if you're using a bolow to take
Speaker 1: a drone down. But yeah, it's good to know. Starting
Speaker 1: early on the Robot Wars, you know, yeah, right, I
Speaker 1: mean alrighty, it's funny when you see like people help
Speaker 1: sometimes help the delivery robots get across the street, and
Speaker 1: then you see like the like ludite type people who
Speaker 1: are like, man, this robot like kick it over, and
Speaker 1: you're just like, just decide on one miles. You should
Speaker 1: know that ludites were a name for revolutionary workers. Come on, yes,
Speaker 1: I know, but look and just like we should be
Speaker 1: smashing chat GPT, we should probably smashing them printing presses.
Speaker 1: I get that. Man, that's a whole other boxel worms too.
Speaker 1: In the last couple of days of talking like really
Speaker 1: earnestly with people about AI and some people really being
Speaker 1: on the side of like it's a great tool that
Speaker 1: could make things so much easier, and as somebody who
Speaker 1: has been laid off before or look how budget cuts
Speaker 1: their man, I'm like, that looks like a way to
Speaker 1: condense like fifteen jobs into two. But are we then
Speaker 1: grappling with the complexity of that after I'm like torn
Speaker 1: because I did work in AI in my PhD that
Speaker 1: I quit. But I think like everything gets like automated,
Speaker 1: and job security just like constantly changes as technology evolves.
Speaker 1: So I think that responsibility like definitely like the people
Speaker 1: making the tech need to be talking to policymakers more
Speaker 1: to prepare like the masses for like the skill changes
Speaker 1: that like I mean, think about computer scientists now versus
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago, like the like the job market that's
Speaker 1: completely changed, you know. And I think AI is scary
Speaker 1: because of what we're going to talk about next, But
Speaker 1: there are good uses for it. It's just like people
Speaker 1: are I'm like, I'm not going to be impressed with
Speaker 1: AI until someone makes like a single printer that works reliably,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like, I don't care about
Speaker 1: all of these advances. I just want a printer to work,
Speaker 1: you know. I want a PowerPoint to not defeat a professor. Okay, guy,
Speaker 1: what are you? How are you? Like? What's how it
Speaker 1: is sort of AI sort of intersect with your work
Speaker 1: right now? Well, I think I feel like the writing
Speaker 1: has been on the wall for a while. People are
Speaker 1: so shocked that chat GPT came in, and what are
Speaker 1: they going to do with students and how are they
Speaker 1: going to learn anything? But but seriously, we've just been
Speaker 1: incorporated technology into the classroom, like without even thinking so,
Speaker 1: and suddenly this thing is there and it's the first
Speaker 1: time we are stopping to think and realizing maybe maybe
Speaker 1: not all technology is good. Maybe a kid would not
Speaker 1: learn if they their essays written by chat YPT. So
Speaker 1: even though I'm concern about what's going to happen, I'm
Speaker 1: sort of happy there's some kind of wake up coal here, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I talked to some professors about this. I talked to
Speaker 1: a professor from Germany and he was saying that they
Speaker 1: do use like AI to write essays, but the ways
Speaker 1: to get around that is they have like rival technology
Speaker 1: to detect when AI is being used to write the essay.
Speaker 1: So that's what's happening in Europe right now. And I
Speaker 1: was like, how how much is this going to go
Speaker 1: back and forth? This is like a kid battling their
Speaker 1: parent with parental controls, you know what I mean, like
Speaker 1: try to lock them out with the password, right, and
Speaker 1: that never goes anywhere because there's always a new technology,
Speaker 1: and it's just yeah, but the fact we have we're
Speaker 1: faced by this and it's out there. There was no warning.
Speaker 1: It just came the CHAGYBT and I was supposed to
Speaker 1: deal with the consequences and there's no time to think
Speaker 1: even yeah out here. Yeah, And because i They're like
Speaker 1: I have friends too, who are like in grant writing too,
Speaker 1: they're not born writers, you know, they're just like motivated
Speaker 1: people in the field that they do in grant writing
Speaker 1: is difficult, and they're like, it's taken a lot of
Speaker 1: work off of my plate. I'm not a born writer
Speaker 1: or like I have these literary skill to be writing
Speaker 1: like compelling things. It's much easier to use that. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, I completely understand where these tools like how
Speaker 1: they're used. And then I have friends who work in
Speaker 1: advertising who are like, yeah, company clients are now coming
Speaker 1: to us with like half baked decks that AI generated,
Speaker 1: and it's like sort of diminishing the kinds of work
Speaker 1: that we're able to do even as advertising agencies along
Speaker 1: with them. And I'm like, you see, you see where
Speaker 1: the sort of the squeezing and expansion is beginning to happen.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's this is why robots need to take
Speaker 1: over all of the labor. And then we just get
Speaker 1: to frolic and fields all day. Thank you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Let us let us frolic let us easier times. Oh,
Speaker 1: we just consume and sit on our screens and nothing
Speaker 1: else because wale, Okay, Kyle, what is something that you
Speaker 1: think is overrated. What I think is overrated. I think
Speaker 1: it's um basically nexting progress. So I'll give you two
Speaker 1: examples what I mean by that. So I am supposed
Speaker 1: to meet a friend in a restaurant and she arrives
Speaker 1: five minutes early, so she texts me'm I just got here,
Speaker 1: And then she texts me two minutes later. I'm sitting
Speaker 1: at the corner on the table, and then you know,
Speaker 1: I come in and instead of looking for her, I
Speaker 1: text her I'm here. And why all these extra texting?
Speaker 1: It's not really necessary? Or I live in New York City.
Speaker 1: We order food all the time. We order delivery, so
Speaker 1: you know, you get confirmation when you order food. I
Speaker 1: guess that's good. You know your order got in. But
Speaker 1: then you get another text your food is being prepared,
Speaker 1: and then you get another one your delivery is on
Speaker 1: the way. And then usually like two minutes after we're delivered,
Speaker 1: you get a text saying congratulations your food is aliver Right, right?
Speaker 1: Do we really need all of this? That makes me think,
Speaker 1: you know, like the constant progress alerts has to be
Speaker 1: something that I know, like in your book, you touch
Speaker 1: on like the idea that a lot of technology stuff
Speaker 1: is informed by like like neuropsychologists too, and just the
Speaker 1: idea of like what's going to get someone like this
Speaker 1: is actually a future that people want even though we're
Speaker 1: like do we But I also get it in the
Speaker 1: age of such instant gratification that it's probably for the
Speaker 1: kinds of people who are like, well, what's going on
Speaker 1: with my order? Like where is it? And then you
Speaker 1: can at least have Oh okay, they've they're preparing it.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, they have another stop along the way. Right.
Speaker 1: We spent a little top because every time I get
Speaker 1: one of these texts, I just just say, Okay, the
Speaker 1: food is coming, my kids will get dinner. I start
Speaker 1: looking at my emails and I start taking a Facebook
Speaker 1: and I've spent ten minutes just because I got this
Speaker 1: extra text. Wow. Also, it takes the responsibility off of
Speaker 1: the person to be like patient, you know what I
Speaker 1: mean like that, and that makes like more face to
Speaker 1: face conversations and demands like much more terrifying, because people
Speaker 1: expect efficiency at their demand and at their service, you know,
Speaker 1: right right. I was just I just was thinking of
Speaker 1: recently I got like a like a like a like
Speaker 1: a delivery thing and it was like telling me. They're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: this package will arrive in like five days from now,
Speaker 1: four days from now. I'm like, yeah, I knew that
Speaker 1: when you gave me the like, you know, expected delivery date.
Speaker 1: And to that point, I'm like, maybe this is for
Speaker 1: a very specific kind of psychology that it's catering to,
Speaker 1: because it certainly was not me. Guya, what's something you
Speaker 1: think is underrated? Well, two things which I related, I
Speaker 1: think alarm clocks and wrist watches. So if I had
Speaker 1: an alarm clock, instead of using the alarm on my phone,
Speaker 1: instead of getting up in the morning in bed and
Speaker 1: picking up my phone and force checking my email, three
Speaker 1: email accounts, my social networks and what's up whatever text,
Speaker 1: I could maybe just you know, woke wake up in
Speaker 1: a more normal way. But if I don't, I don't
Speaker 1: have separate alarm. I'm dreaming about that to get to one.
Speaker 1: And another thing is ast wristwatch. I don't want to
Speaker 1: have one either. I actually lost it three months ago
Speaker 1: and get a chance to buy a new a new one.
Speaker 1: But so every time I want to know the time again,
Speaker 1: I pick up my phone and I just described what happens.
Speaker 1: So I think this are things that if they came
Speaker 1: back into fashion, would be great. I know. That's what
Speaker 1: Like the Apple watch was like so insidious, Like I
Speaker 1: got it in the beginning of the pandemic, like as
Speaker 1: like a heart rate monitor too, because I was like
Speaker 1: running more and I was like, oh, this is great
Speaker 1: and I can I don't have to bring an iPod.
Speaker 1: I can like listen with my like with my wrist
Speaker 1: watch without it's like less bulk. But to your point, now,
Speaker 1: when I look at my wrist, it's for so much
Speaker 1: more than the time, and it's yeah, the the amounts
Speaker 1: of information on offer from such a small devices, it
Speaker 1: can definitely take your attention. And I was a kid.
Speaker 1: I used to wear a wristwatch and like they're great,
Speaker 1: and I was the only one who did so I
Speaker 1: was like a little baby businessman and I always needed
Speaker 1: it before I went to school. Hall I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be late, mother, Let's get there right right,
Speaker 1: That's all I have to offer to You're like, you're like, well, no,
Speaker 1: we have plenty of time, Like well is your watch
Speaker 1: said to the atomic clock like mine, because we are behind,
Speaker 1: we have to go. That was but it's funny. I
Speaker 1: also like wore a wrist watch too, Like was one
Speaker 1: of those like nerdy kids just like to have like
Speaker 1: a watch, Like yeah, it's like or be like a
Speaker 1: um actually type kid were like, oh, we should actually
Speaker 1: go into recess because it's already like one thirty. They didn't.
Speaker 1: Are you a roller backpack kid? No, rolliebags came out
Speaker 1: my junior year of high school. That's like when we
Speaker 1: hit peak rolliebag. I'm a I'm an elder. So the
Speaker 1: earliest people that I remember there was this one girl
Speaker 1: I would school, a Libby. She I remember she heard
Speaker 1: her back like like you know, playing in the yard
Speaker 1: or whatever, and the doctor told her she couldn't wear
Speaker 1: a backpack. So she had like a travel suitcase that
Speaker 1: she would bring around. So funny to us, you were
Speaker 1: like that it was the o g rolliebag was just
Speaker 1: bringing a travel suitcase around. I have thought about doing
Speaker 1: that at the girl through store before I got a car.
Speaker 1: I was like this closed to bringing just a suitcase
Speaker 1: grostery store. I love the efficiency. I love the efficiency.
Speaker 1: So guy, await, So I love that You're like, you'd
Speaker 1: be great to having a long clock. Me myself don't
Speaker 1: have one, but I think it would be fantastic. What's
Speaker 1: I love, like the sort of paradoxical relationship we all
Speaker 1: have with these kinds of things, or like that's what
Speaker 1: I need. Don't have one yet, but I feel it's
Speaker 1: something I could that could definitely help me. Yeah, Miss Gaya,
Speaker 1: Mother Earth, she wakes up with the sun. Okay, come down,
Speaker 1: I wait with the sun, but not because I want to,
Speaker 1: because I had Okay, cool, Well, let's take a quick
Speaker 1: break and we'll be right back to talk about some
Speaker 1: some really cool, uh Catholic fashion trends coming out of
Speaker 1: Rome right after this. Over the weekend, Oh, we're back. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm rusty, folks. I've been on paternal leave parental leave,
Speaker 1: and I've this is my first time speaking with people
Speaker 1: over the age of like seven weeks old. So this
Speaker 1: is helping me a lot as I slowly get back
Speaker 1: into this. We're back, but I want to get into
Speaker 1: our first story. So over the weekend, there was a
Speaker 1: huge splash on social media when an image of the
Speaker 1: Pope warring puffy white jacket came out and it was
Speaker 1: the talk of many text threads and conversations between people
Speaker 1: I know who are Catholic and they're Catholic parents who
Speaker 1: are like, see, he's pretty cool, check him out. But
Speaker 1: turns out it was an AI generated image, which left
Speaker 1: many people sort of like ingenuine shock, and this like
Speaker 1: the sort of journey of this image was. It was
Speaker 1: first posted to the mid Journey AI subreddit and from there,
Speaker 1: you know, I think if anyone knew where it was,
Speaker 1: you go, oh, this is posted in the place where
Speaker 1: people are posting AI generated images. But there there is
Speaker 1: a Reddit to Twitter pipeline that most people aren't maybe
Speaker 1: aren't aware of, or a lot of the context just
Speaker 1: gets ripped and then put on Twitter immediately, sometimes with
Speaker 1: no context or whatever. And then many people were like,
Speaker 1: what is a go weighing on here? The pope looks
Speaker 1: fantastic or is he really wearing all that? But I
Speaker 1: think with anything, if you weren't looking on Twitter and
Speaker 1: you kind of looked at a bigger image, you could
Speaker 1: kind of see that there were some inconsistencies about just
Speaker 1: you know, physics or like light or what kind of
Speaker 1: crucifix even the pope would wear. But I was curious
Speaker 1: if you all saw this picture and what your own
Speaker 1: evolution of thoughts was with this. I saw it, and
Speaker 1: I didn't think any thoughts. I just retweeted my friend's
Speaker 1: tweet that said dope Francis because I thought that was cool,
Speaker 1: and I also want to add some that was at
Speaker 1: Beth Borden, and then I also want to add some
Speaker 1: important context. She responded to her tweet with a comment
Speaker 1: from Reddit that was like, Mussalms are sweaty knee, sweet
Speaker 1: crosses heavy, last supper is ready. It's Lord Spaghetti by
Speaker 1: Lebron James Johnson. So I didn't think any thoughts. I
Speaker 1: guess I don't have enough Catholic friends. I was just like,
Speaker 1: that's a funny joke, and I retweeted it because like
Speaker 1: what he's wearing has no effect on any policies or
Speaker 1: any real thing. So I was like, this is dumb.
Speaker 1: But then later I was like, oh, yeah, I do
Speaker 1: need to look at images more closely to know if
Speaker 1: they're AI, but eventually it's going to get to a
Speaker 1: point where we won't know. Yeah, I mean this this
Speaker 1: kind of goes along with just like in the last
Speaker 1: week there was like Helon Musk holding hands with AOC
Speaker 1: or Trump getting arrested, and like there's one of Macron.
Speaker 1: Also there's a lot of Trump makeout yeah yeah, and
Speaker 1: like and with Trump, we know like that man is
Speaker 1: not dynamic enough to ever cause emotion blur in in
Speaker 1: a still image. So I was like this, Sai, my
Speaker 1: man is not My mind is not that spry, Okay.
Speaker 1: But again with like a lot of people were saying that,
Speaker 1: like some there was maybe a reason why some people
Speaker 1: were quick to at first quite possibly believe that this
Speaker 1: was real because apparently there's a group of people that
Speaker 1: think that he, like the Pope, is like very stylish,
Speaker 1: and that there were rumors going around that he was
Speaker 1: like wearing designer loafers that the Vatican had to debunk
Speaker 1: because people are like, well, it's Rome. It's like fashion
Speaker 1: is everywhere, and like why wouldn't he And then while
Speaker 1: others were just like, I think it just goes part
Speaker 1: in parcel with like people's celebrity worship or the idea
Speaker 1: that just like oh yeah, yeah, that's I'd believe that
Speaker 1: I buy that, or because how oversaturated even images of
Speaker 1: celebrities look, that these Ai sort of imitations are just
Speaker 1: sort of hitting all taking all these boxes visually that
Speaker 1: are sort of our guards come down. Guya. What are
Speaker 1: your thoughts on on dope, Francis, But that's in the
Speaker 1: same I missed a bit, so sometimes I'm not inconsistent.
Speaker 1: I actually follow what I preached, so I'd tried not
Speaker 1: dispense too much time on Twitter, so I didn't see it.
Speaker 1: But I agree with if you said basically, I mean
Speaker 1: this is going to be perfect. I mean, right now
Speaker 1: people can tell us AI, but it's just a matter
Speaker 1: of time. And then the question is how do you
Speaker 1: decide what's reality and what's real and what's not, which
Speaker 1: has been an issue for a lot for quite a
Speaker 1: while with words. But once you get into pictures, when
Speaker 1: you lose When when a vision tells gets perfect, like
Speaker 1: chatty pet will get perfect, that's when we really really
Speaker 1: have a problem. Right. This is the image Guy of
Speaker 1: just of him in this like puffy jacket. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: so this because it was so fashionable, everyone was like, oh,
Speaker 1: we love this, we love this. And again like you're saying, Guy,
Speaker 1: like it's imperfect right now, And many people pointed out
Speaker 1: these imperfections like like hands, we've seen that, like all
Speaker 1: these AI have real trouble rendering like hands and legs,
Speaker 1: like the Trump arresting like he had like he was
Speaker 1: like a quadruped like in that image, and then a
Speaker 1: lot of like other religious people were like, that is
Speaker 1: not the kind of crucifix the pope would wear if
Speaker 1: they look at that, or even like the way the
Speaker 1: glasses frames were blending into the shadow of it were
Speaker 1: like very you know, keen eyed people thought. But for
Speaker 1: most people who are just looking at an image like
Speaker 1: this on Twitter or like on a passive scroll, like
Speaker 1: to your point, when they really dial things in, it's
Speaker 1: truly gonna like the amount of like reconciliation that has
Speaker 1: to happen in your brain to be like what am
Speaker 1: I looking at is definitely going to increase. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: I guess when you think about it, like what what
Speaker 1: is the damage? I know there's some laws to regulate
Speaker 1: you know, photography fakes in some states, not many of them,
Speaker 1: but but they are all kinds of other harms that
Speaker 1: can be caused by just you know, showing somebody in
Speaker 1: a place they would never were, or where they're not
Speaker 1: supposed to be with somebody they're not supposed to be
Speaker 1: with them. I'm not sure it might again take years
Speaker 1: until something is done about that, right. I wanted to
Speaker 1: ask your thoughts because you are in law and so
Speaker 1: accolated within it. How what about like the ramifications for
Speaker 1: like court based evidence, Like already the justice system is
Speaker 1: so flawed. How are we gonna you know, voicemail, voice notes, calls, images,
Speaker 1: all of these are used as evidence. How do we
Speaker 1: know what's going to be real and what's going to
Speaker 1: be presented to a jury? Right? So, but with every
Speaker 1: kind of evidence, there's always an analysis, you know. For example,
Speaker 1: when we started getting DNA evidence, it took a while
Speaker 1: until it was accepted. The problem here is photographs are
Speaker 1: already accepted as evidence exactly, So you have to decide
Speaker 1: how you treated you sort of do you start treating
Speaker 1: it as less reliable? And that's confusing, right yeah, But
Speaker 1: that's only so that's suddenly it's like, I'm sorry, this
Speaker 1: video evidence is just not reliable because we're our ability
Speaker 1: to fake everything and it could absolutely be something that
Speaker 1: would you know, absolve someone of guilt or you know,
Speaker 1: convict Someone's this this voicemail of Joe Biden saying the
Speaker 1: N word on a call. No, like all the deep
Speaker 1: pig voices of the presidents. They had him like singing
Speaker 1: like rap lyrics since and it sounds like him, you know,
Speaker 1: like all of the the AI voice. They have like
Speaker 1: a lot of like gamer videos of Trump and Biden
Speaker 1: and Obama playing video games together and using their voices,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like yeah, to talk shit
Speaker 1: to each other during a gameplay content I never wanted.
Speaker 1: But I didn't hear one of a deep faked Trump.
Speaker 1: And the one thing I was like, they can't get
Speaker 1: his cadence right, Like the tone of voice was right,
Speaker 1: but his way, his manner of speaking of like good
Speaker 1: luck for the person who has to like program the
Speaker 1: nuances of that speech to like into an algorithm, because
Speaker 1: that's yeah. The Biden one was like, was there were
Speaker 1: tiktoks of boomers being scared by their like millennial and
Speaker 1: gen Z kids like hearing Biden like say the N
Speaker 1: word and say all this like crazy stuff, and they
Speaker 1: were like, oh my goodness. Like the use of the
Speaker 1: propaganda for election campaigns, like by the time for this
Speaker 1: image for example, like everybody saw it and then no
Speaker 1: one saw the follow up story. You know that happens
Speaker 1: all the time when even you know, human generated inaccurate
Speaker 1: headlines are produced and then people don't see the corrections,
Speaker 1: like the damage just already done. So what do we
Speaker 1: do then, yeah, slippery slope, but I mean it sounds
Speaker 1: like yeah, like as of now you can kind of
Speaker 1: you can kind of tell because it looks like a
Speaker 1: trippy oil painting. Still, if you look real close, the
Speaker 1: skin's always shinier than it has to be. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that's how I look in pictures. It's just like a
Speaker 1: and we know I'll go with them teach themselves so
Speaker 1: they will learn eventually how it look perfectly. It's really
Speaker 1: a matter of time and awful lot of time until
Speaker 1: it will be perfect, right. It's just yeah, it really
Speaker 1: is a very interesting time because things are just feel
Speaker 1: like they're just accelerating now to speed that like the nineties,
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, man, you heard a CD rom And
Speaker 1: then it's like you don't need the caddy anymore. You
Speaker 1: can insert the CD disc straight in. That was like
Speaker 1: three years of time. And now we're going from like, hey,
Speaker 1: you can swap faces on Snapchat to like you hear
Speaker 1: Joe Biden say the N word on this phone call
Speaker 1: and you're like, what, how it's kind of interesting how
Speaker 1: we like will be reverting to like non technical stuff
Speaker 1: because talking to that professor about the AI writing the essays.
Speaker 1: The only fool proof way of making sure people don't
Speaker 1: cheat is like, because you can try to get more
Speaker 1: localized and specific with the topics, but eventually it's going
Speaker 1: to get to a point where you have to just
Speaker 1: like watch them write the essay in front of you
Speaker 1: on paper, you know what I mean. And that's like
Speaker 1: reverting back to when we didn't have it, Like we
Speaker 1: use the technology so much it's irresponsible. Now we don't
Speaker 1: get to use it anymore, you know, I think it
Speaker 1: would be some advantages. You know, I've been sitting in
Speaker 1: classrooms teaching students on Wi Fi for a while, and
Speaker 1: I never understood why I have to compete against the Internet. Why, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm talking everybody can be shopping on Instagram. And actually
Speaker 1: if you cut down to Wi Fi, which is how
Speaker 1: people have to do exams, so they won't be able
Speaker 1: to cheat and they'll have secure systems and the computers,
Speaker 1: that might be place we should have gone earlier. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is true. I mean, like I remember when I
Speaker 1: got to college, like this was this is like the
Speaker 1: beginning of laptops being just you know, ubiquitous, like they
Speaker 1: were everywhere, and I remember like the first time I
Speaker 1: popped my laptop open. In my Spanish and Iberian history class,
Speaker 1: I was looking at nonsense and I hadn't was absolutely
Speaker 1: just missed the entire lesson because I was so amazed.
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I can do I can multitask
Speaker 1: quote unquote, But really I was absolutely just distracting myself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you doing versus school here in New York City.
Speaker 1: I mean, kids were saying, how I supposed to study,
Speaker 1: but he's playing games on the computers. I'm just watching
Speaker 1: the kid next to me on the game. Right. Well,
Speaker 1: this next story I think is really interesting because we're
Speaker 1: talking about just sort of the speed at which we're
Speaker 1: moving towards like not needing human interaction really anymore. You know,
Speaker 1: Virtual reality or VR as I remember it in the
Speaker 1: nineties was a real hook for people that were really
Speaker 1: interested in technology, you know, like it was in film
Speaker 1: and TV and video games, and like sort of gave
Speaker 1: us this idea of like a world where all you
Speaker 1: had to put on was a goofy looking hell helmet
Speaker 1: and now you are experiencing a new reality. And it
Speaker 1: was like I get that. From that time, We're like, Wow,
Speaker 1: the ability of computers is fantastic. This could really be
Speaker 1: something anyway, fast forward to now where no one is
Speaker 1: interested in wearing a helmet to use Google Docs or
Speaker 1: living on a beach digitally or whatever. Yet a lot
Speaker 1: of the big tech companies are insisting that it's the
Speaker 1: wave of the future. Specifically, you know, Mark Zuckerberg completely
Speaker 1: took a big swing with the metaverse and ended up
Speaker 1: being not what he thought it was going to be
Speaker 1: because again, this was like a weird way from the
Speaker 1: way he saw its, like, this is a new way
Speaker 1: for people to work and toil. And I think most
Speaker 1: people who are on that side of the equation, we're like, no,
Speaker 1: don't don't want that at all. Actually, I'm fine with
Speaker 1: the way we're doing it. I'm actually less distracted without
Speaker 1: having to put on a VR headset and be in
Speaker 1: some like emoji or like avatar based meeting or something
Speaker 1: like that. And now Apple is just they're going full
Speaker 1: steam ahead with their mixed reality heads and people that
Speaker 1: have worked on the product are giving some insight now
Speaker 1: to how the internal design team thinks it's going to be,
Speaker 1: and it's not great. Quote. Some company insiders have been
Speaker 1: wondering if the upcoming headset is a solution in search
Speaker 1: of a problem sources still the media outlet that quote.
Speaker 1: Unlike the iPod, which put digital songs in people's pockets,
Speaker 1: and the iPhone, which combined the abilities of a music
Speaker 1: player and a phone, the headset hasn't been driven by
Speaker 1: the same clarity. And I can totally see that. I mean,
Speaker 1: not only that, it sounds like they are numerous like
Speaker 1: deserters of the project who are working on it, like
Speaker 1: at Apple, because they just felt that the end product
Speaker 1: wasn't going to live up to like what they think
Speaker 1: it's going to be, while like other people have been
Speaker 1: fired because you know, they failed to make certain features work.
Speaker 1: It's just when you look at it right now, we're
Speaker 1: in a landscape where this is not necessarily a booming market,
Speaker 1: like Meta has had to slash the price of their
Speaker 1: top tier fifteen hundred dollar headset by a third to
Speaker 1: try and entice people. This Apple headset, you know how much,
Speaker 1: is rumored to be three thousand dollars. They are not
Speaker 1: going to Google glasses. I am sorry that is not happening.
Speaker 1: I get that the Apple fans out there, they might
Speaker 1: be like, oh yeah, I got it yesterday, But again,
Speaker 1: this does feel like this weird thing where I'm not
Speaker 1: really sure what this how this is making anything easier,
Speaker 1: or what the novelty is going to be. And it
Speaker 1: just feels like, again, like with all of our technology,
Speaker 1: if we're like if in this world where maybe people
Speaker 1: were using VR more, I'd imagine we're just going to
Speaker 1: increasingly like more one dimensional forms of communication without much
Speaker 1: real human contact. You know, it's hard to say, it's
Speaker 1: how to say if what's happening, like what happened with videos,
Speaker 1: Like for decades people were saying they're going to have
Speaker 1: video conferencing and everything will be on video, and nothing
Speaker 1: happened until quite recently, really until the pandemic, I would say,
Speaker 1: nobody was really doing it. And I wonder if this
Speaker 1: is just some kind of delay and eventually they will
Speaker 1: find a way to do it. I mean, I was
Speaker 1: worried about that. I was thinking, I mean, not only
Speaker 1: in our screens all the time, if we're completely in
Speaker 1: a different reality that we know, interaction between us whatsoever.
Speaker 1: But I guess I'm relieved that this is delayed, but
Speaker 1: I'm not sure who delayed forever? Right? So do you
Speaker 1: think it all way? Right? If like the very cynical
Speaker 1: version is like We're on this very increasingly intense path
Speaker 1: where technology is going to make things easier or whatever
Speaker 1: or communication streamlined, which really means less human interaction. And
Speaker 1: because of maybe that feeling of isolation, these headsets are
Speaker 1: going to offer us some feeling of like humanity again.
Speaker 1: Is that like maybe where it's gonna like the hook
Speaker 1: point we'll return for it. They're like, hey, remember we
Speaker 1: used to see people put this headset on. I feel
Speaker 1: like this is I mean, that's why it was invented,
Speaker 1: is because of like rich people's playgrounds, right, Like they
Speaker 1: are isolated and they feel weird, and so they're like,
Speaker 1: how are we going to perform our man hunts on
Speaker 1: islands during the next pandemic? You know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Let's go VR with it. But if you've ever used
Speaker 1: a VR heads like I've played, I've done like gains
Speaker 1: like at arcades and stuff with and it like it
Speaker 1: literally makes me throw up. Like some of them have
Speaker 1: been such unpleasant experiences, like fake roller coasters and stuff
Speaker 1: that I got like really sick after in a way
Speaker 1: that I never had gotten on like real roller coasters,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I'm like, I'm like some
Speaker 1: of it just feels I feel like some of it
Speaker 1: could be used in Guantanamo, is what I'm saying, Like,
Speaker 1: I feel like that's where this is gonna be weaponized
Speaker 1: eventually for true yeah, for true psychological terror ops for yeah.
Speaker 1: But guy, like, so, how do you sort of see
Speaker 1: it evolveing? Because, like I think, from our perspective right now,
Speaker 1: is we see it coming from like like an employer
Speaker 1: class that goes like, this is the future of work.
Speaker 1: You know. That's how Meta was sort of sort of
Speaker 1: centering the metaverse in the beginning, was like this is
Speaker 1: going to replace how you meet and how teams interact
Speaker 1: and things like that, And most workers were like, no,
Speaker 1: that's that sounds like added It's sort of like added
Speaker 1: intensity or a level of connection that isn't necessary given
Speaker 1: that we're able to work together online. But how do
Speaker 1: you sort of see this evolution happening where they like
Speaker 1: we're like, yeah, I guess what. Everybody's got one of
Speaker 1: these now, So you know, I thought this was heading
Speaker 1: this way. I was actually if you'd ask me, you know,
Speaker 1: six months ago, a year ago, I was sure this
Speaker 1: together with smart cities were connected everywhere and I phone
Speaker 1: is used for everything, is where we're headed. So I
Speaker 1: am surprised, and I'm always wondering if what happened here
Speaker 1: is that people were somehow struck by the pandemic because
Speaker 1: they sort of felt you know, there were lockdowns, they
Speaker 1: were at home, they felt what it means to be
Speaker 1: on the screen all the time not seeing people. They
Speaker 1: felt how their bodies felt, they felt how their minds felt.
Speaker 1: And maybe they're realizing more than before because when I
Speaker 1: was speaking before the pandemic to people, it was mostly
Speaker 1: parents who are a warried and something is shifted. So
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if that's I'm wondering if it's technological issues
Speaker 1: or it's partly how people feel about it. And I
Speaker 1: really really hope it's the latter. Hm. I feel like,
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, we are people and
Speaker 1: we need human connection and our brains will explode if
Speaker 1: we don't have that. You know, we have access to
Speaker 1: all of these technologies. But at the same time, people
Speaker 1: really wanted to just go to restaurants during the pandemic
Speaker 1: and eat together. So yeah, and hear like human laughter,
Speaker 1: and I remember so much how I longed to like
Speaker 1: eat with a group of like, you know, like eat
Speaker 1: off someone's plate, like let me try that, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: to like get a hug from someone, you know, Oh man,
Speaker 1: that early day and burst into tears. I was doing
Speaker 1: like turnaway hugs from like my grandfather and stuff like
Speaker 1: wearing all these ppe It was like, all right, you
Speaker 1: gotta go, man, you're almost ninety, Yeah, mess around. But
Speaker 1: again it's true, like and we'll get into this um
Speaker 1: after the break we talk a little bit about your book, guy,
Speaker 1: because I do feel like we are in this experience
Speaker 1: as people where the technology is making our lives easier.
Speaker 1: And for the record, everyone like we're all no one
Speaker 1: hears like hates technology. But the thing that we're up
Speaker 1: against now is like we're starting to see how it's
Speaker 1: eroding at these like little things and increasing this feeling
Speaker 1: of alienation, and yet we still are using it, like
Speaker 1: we just can't quit it. And your book sort of
Speaker 1: gets to the crux of that feeling. We'll talk about
Speaker 1: that right after the break. We'll be right back. So,
Speaker 1: you know, talking about your book Guya Unwired, you know,
Speaker 1: basically gaining control over addictive technologies. It really struck me
Speaker 1: just because again for many younger people, like the allure
Speaker 1: of the smartphone isn't an obscure phenomenon. Like we talk
Speaker 1: constantly about unplugging and the benefits it's had on our
Speaker 1: own mental health, Like just anecdotally amongst ourselves, your book
Speaker 1: address is sort of one of the main I feel
Speaker 1: like cycles of emotions many of us have in relation
Speaker 1: to using screens, where like we get motivated to use
Speaker 1: the screen less and then we're like, oh, this feels great.
Speaker 1: Then we are sucked right back in and we feel
Speaker 1: like shit, and it feels like like we kind of
Speaker 1: come down to like I don't know, it's wow, Like
Speaker 1: I just lack the self control. It's sort of like
Speaker 1: the final sort of sentiment people land on and like
Speaker 1: grappling with technologies. As a new parent too, I'm just
Speaker 1: again very aware about screen time and I also feel
Speaker 1: that like there's a certain futility around it too with
Speaker 1: a lot of parents or they're like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: you know, sooner or later it's just going to be
Speaker 1: normal for them, and maybe I'm trying to delay the inevitable.
Speaker 1: But it also apps. I've seen how much it can help,
Speaker 1: you know, put a kid at ease and allow somebody
Speaker 1: to do something else where do you feel like parents
Speaker 1: and people kind of fit into this mix where we're
Speaker 1: like the world is spinning around us, and we're like,
Speaker 1: am I bad? Or what is happening? Like is our
Speaker 1: brains meant this? Or we up against something a little
Speaker 1: bit more intense than we realized. I think we're an
Speaker 1: interesting place right now because we have a lot of information.
Speaker 1: We have lots of information from whistle lowers from the
Speaker 1: tech companies telling us how tech companies are addicting us
Speaker 1: to keep us online for longer. But still we keep
Speaker 1: blaming ourselves. We keep thinking it's our fault and we
Speaker 1: are unable to stop spending time online. We blame our kids,
Speaker 1: we blame our families. The problem is that that's exactly
Speaker 1: what the tech companies want us to do, and that's
Speaker 1: why they're giving us all these tools to make us
Speaker 1: feel like we're in control. So once the evidence came
Speaker 1: out that it's that they're trying to addict us, they
Speaker 1: gave us these digital well being tools. You know, everybody
Speaker 1: who has an iPhone has this screen time, so you
Speaker 1: know how much time you are online, or you can
Speaker 1: even limit the time on your apps, or you can
Speaker 1: make your gray or they're warning you could put warnings
Speaker 1: on Instagram and not to talk about parental controls, which
Speaker 1: are getting more and more complicated. And but the thing
Speaker 1: is these are just there so we all feel like
Speaker 1: we're doing something, but they're not really there to make
Speaker 1: us succeed because they do not really change the most
Speaker 1: addictive features in our devices or in our apps. There
Speaker 1: are just there, so we will think that it is
Speaker 1: our fault, exactly like you were describing. And again, how
Speaker 1: in this world right if we're pivoting from it's not
Speaker 1: us because it's like, you know, you've likened it to
Speaker 1: like the tobacco industry, where like they know they know it,
Speaker 1: they know it bad for everybody, but then the gas
Speaker 1: lighting starts and it's like I don't know about them.
Speaker 1: I mean, we know what's going on, but we're not
Speaker 1: going to actually cop to it. Do you see like
Speaker 1: a similar evolution where on some level, I mean, because
Speaker 1: I feel like if anything, like you're saying, like the
Speaker 1: markets and capitalism a very good way of shielding themselves
Speaker 1: from like having the profits go down, so they'll find
Speaker 1: a way like you're saying, to be like no, no,
Speaker 1: you actually have control. It's not the it's not the
Speaker 1: other things that were just identified clear as day by
Speaker 1: someone working on it. You have control. Now you know
Speaker 1: what what what does that sort of battle look like.
Speaker 1: I think we're fighting the battle in the wrong place.
Speaker 1: Now we're finding fighting with ourselves, we're fighting with our families.
Speaker 1: I think we have to shift to the public sphere.
Speaker 1: And it is already happening. There's lots of action already
Speaker 1: taking place. There are parents suing social media for addicting
Speaker 1: their kids, causing mental harm, parents suing game manufacturers. There
Speaker 1: are things happening. But I think people have to understand
Speaker 1: it's not just flawyers, it's for everybody, because everybody can
Speaker 1: shift what they're doing to the collective sphere. Parents can
Speaker 1: go to schools. They have an influence about what schools
Speaker 1: are doing. Schools on our exemising technology in the classroom
Speaker 1: because that's the federal policy. Well this could be changed.
Speaker 1: You can decide whether something is useful in the classroom,
Speaker 1: certain technology is useful or not. You can decide whether
Speaker 1: you want the kids to be on their cell phones
Speaker 1: during recess instead of talking to each other. So that's
Speaker 1: the spaces when you can change things, and you can
Speaker 1: change normals. Something you're saying, you know, maybe it's already happening,
Speaker 1: but the new norms evolving every day, which I'm making
Speaker 1: it worse. I was in vacation with my kids and
Speaker 1: there was a family in the pool and my son
Speaker 1: was calling me to look at this. There were two girls,
Speaker 1: I think nine and eleven, and their parents gave them
Speaker 1: these plastic pads to put their iPhones inside so they
Speaker 1: can use the iPhones in the pool instead of playing. Now,
Speaker 1: you know, this is evolving trend, just like a few
Speaker 1: years ago it started to evolve take the kids out
Speaker 1: with iPads to the restaurant. Now so many people about
Speaker 1: doing it, So there are ways too. I think things
Speaker 1: are going to change. I think they're going to be
Speaker 1: lots of legal action and tech companies will be restricted
Speaker 1: in what they could do, but it will take some years.
Speaker 1: So thinks people can do things as business owners. I
Speaker 1: mean in New York City all the airports. If you
Speaker 1: go to an airport, there are four iPads at every table.
Speaker 1: There is no way you can have a conversation there.
Speaker 1: So this is architecture for overuse. You can change. If
Speaker 1: you own a restaurant, you can change. You should don't
Speaker 1: have to use iPads, you don't have to use QR codes,
Speaker 1: so people will take out their phones the moment they
Speaker 1: sit down. So I think there are a lots once
Speaker 1: people are worth a lot of things they can do
Speaker 1: until things will change, and I do believe they're already
Speaker 1: starting to change. Have you heard of like the third
Speaker 1: spaces concept or theory about how there needs to be
Speaker 1: a place for people outside of like work and the home,
Speaker 1: for them to like gather and to exchange information and
Speaker 1: you know, basically develop culture. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people are saying that the phones are now teenagers and
Speaker 1: kids third spaces because a lot of other third spaces
Speaker 1: have become unsafe and unaccessible and inaccessible to them. For example,
Speaker 1: my friend posted about how in New York when she
Speaker 1: was growing up, it became illegal for kids under eighteen
Speaker 1: to go hang out at the mall. And apparently that's
Speaker 1: a thing that's been happening a lot. Whereas when I
Speaker 1: was growing up, that's where we would go and hang
Speaker 1: out with our friends. We'd go to the mall, we'd
Speaker 1: hang out and go to Jomba juice. You'd like, I'd
Speaker 1: try not to leave the bookstore with too many purchases.
Speaker 1: You know, like you you'd hang out, but now it's
Speaker 1: considered like loitering or whatever. Like a lot of these
Speaker 1: external places that are meant for cultural exchange and you know,
Speaker 1: kids to grow up are becoming unavailable to them. And also, honestly,
Speaker 1: with like mass shootings and all of that, people get
Speaker 1: more scared of going out in public and it seems
Speaker 1: to be safer to have them just like inside on
Speaker 1: their phones, which it doesn't necessarily you know, there are
Speaker 1: other risks with that. So I think it would be
Speaker 1: I like how you highlighted it, that it's going to
Speaker 1: be an effort on these places and these people who
Speaker 1: are in charge of those areas, because it really does
Speaker 1: require cooperation between them and between the companies that are
Speaker 1: like forcing their technology on people. Yeah, and I think
Speaker 1: a lot. Municipalities can do a lot because they can
Speaker 1: create spaces for people to hang out and for kids
Speaker 1: to walk to. If you have places to be together,
Speaker 1: it's very different than if you go home after school
Speaker 1: and sit in your bedroom with your phone. Because the
Speaker 1: statistics at by shocking. I mean, kids are meeting I
Speaker 1: think fifty percent less than they used to be in
Speaker 1: the eighties and parting. I think thirty three percent less
Speaker 1: then not getting together. So you can't by design create
Speaker 1: spaces for people to get together. So I mean, if
Speaker 1: you think about bars that having a cigarettes today, this
Speaker 1: seems so implausible, you know, before it happened and things
Speaker 1: look different now. Can you think about a bar without
Speaker 1: every person having their phone next to them? Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's it feels like in a way, like it's almost
Speaker 1: futile to try and reverse things, like in a way
Speaker 1: because like, for example, one of the last concerts I
Speaker 1: went to, like amazing show and there are people experiencing
Speaker 1: the concert through their cell phone, like so much like
Speaker 1: watching you such a pet peeve of mine. I saw
Speaker 1: Tom Petty in in person and I was in like
Speaker 1: the first or second row, and this girl next to
Speaker 1: me literally was on her phone and she was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is such a great song to
Speaker 1: delete pictures too, And I was like Tom Petty is
Speaker 1: on stage right now, right, or that we've lost the
Speaker 1: bit like even like with the example of people like
Speaker 1: in a pool, right, like that swimming isn't enough on
Speaker 1: some level, that like the just being able to play
Speaker 1: in the water is not like stimulating enough that we're
Speaker 1: now adding like well, what if we augmented that with
Speaker 1: some like audio visual stuff too that I'm like, because again,
Speaker 1: I think this is what feels difficult for people, like
Speaker 1: even myself. I was. I remember when I got my
Speaker 1: last vaccination, I forgot my phone in the car, and
Speaker 1: then when you go in there, you gotta wait like
Speaker 1: twenty minutes after like for them just to chill out.
Speaker 1: And I was like, first, I was panicked because I'm like,
Speaker 1: I haven't had to wait without my phone in ages,
Speaker 1: and I there was a moment of sincere like fear,
Speaker 1: not fear, but like I was, I became uneasy and
Speaker 1: I didn't like that. I felt so disarmed to just
Speaker 1: exist in a space without a fucking screen to look at.
Speaker 1: And it was funny because I sat down in the
Speaker 1: chair like in the you know, pain relief medicine aisle,
Speaker 1: and I was just doing I felt like a kid again.
Speaker 1: It was like, I'm like reading all the labels. No,
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I'm gonna read all the labels. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's I go. If I got twenty minutes to kill,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start reading labels and just start being in
Speaker 1: my own thoughts again. And it was interesting how foreign
Speaker 1: that felt to me even though I was you know,
Speaker 1: I was born in the eighties, like I'm older millennial.
Speaker 1: I grew up in the pre internet time too, which
Speaker 1: felt like the most Like all humans are probably wired
Speaker 1: to want to do this and connect to other people,
Speaker 1: but we've definitely it's become so normal that to the
Speaker 1: point where feeling human feels foreign, And that's what's really
Speaker 1: scary to me. Well, I don't think we get to
Speaker 1: go back in time, but I think we can balance
Speaker 1: things better. Imagine if you went to concert and the
Speaker 1: concert whole said no phones, so nobody could take off
Speaker 1: their phones to take pictures. Maybe the phones will be
Speaker 1: in their bags. That is changing the norms in a
Speaker 1: way it could be done, and that things will affect everybody.
Speaker 1: But I guess, like in there, right, there's an argument
Speaker 1: to say, like, well, if someone actually needed to contact
Speaker 1: me during it, then that would be like why would
Speaker 1: how would like how do you find a way that
Speaker 1: makes it so it's not just sort of like across
Speaker 1: the board no phones, but we're able to, Like I
Speaker 1: guess that's the hard part of Like there are phones
Speaker 1: for taking no pluonts for taking pictures of the show.
Speaker 1: You can do so with you. But yeah, that's museums.
Speaker 1: They do that too. Like I tried to take a
Speaker 1: picture of a painting recently into like no no, no. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's also like that painting is gonna be online.
Speaker 1: Nobody's gonna take you. Like I don't need to take
Speaker 1: a picture of that painting. Yeah. One thing that helped
Speaker 1: me is like literally spending more time with people and
Speaker 1: like making an effort to do that, to like leave
Speaker 1: my home and go spend time with people. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to do that like once a day because I work remotely.
Speaker 1: And then the other thing is like I have dogs
Speaker 1: and when I walk them, one of them's a little
Speaker 1: monster and he will try to eat stuff, and so
Speaker 1: I have to like pay attention. And now I'm like
Speaker 1: I know where all the good sticks are, you know,
Speaker 1: I know where all the great grasses. I'm like going
Speaker 1: back to when I was a kid and I was
Speaker 1: just outside playing with my dogs, and it's so nice
Speaker 1: to take a walk outside when it's sunny here, lay
Speaker 1: and be with my pets, you know, and talk to
Speaker 1: people who have pets and connect with them that way.
Speaker 1: You know. So having things and people around you that
Speaker 1: take you out of your head and like give you
Speaker 1: an external like rounding two. Community is so important. That's
Speaker 1: why I love like mutual aid and like physical activities
Speaker 1: that like help with community things, because that really nourishes
Speaker 1: a part of you that cannot be nurished in the
Speaker 1: same way through a screen. Yeah, I've like in the
Speaker 1: same way, like walking around my neighborhood and doing the
Speaker 1: unthinkable of talking to a stranger has been the one
Speaker 1: thing that I've felt really balances things out because there
Speaker 1: was I saw a recent study that like the people
Speaker 1: have a sincere fear of small talk falling apart, and
Speaker 1: like they like people just have an eight sense, like
Speaker 1: that if people begin small talk and the conversation goes south,
Speaker 1: that it's suddenly on them, and like people get their
Speaker 1: own anxiety of not being able to like keep up
Speaker 1: small talk, which is wild because and sometimes you're just
Speaker 1: exchanging pleasantries and it doesn't have to be more than that.
Speaker 1: But I feel like there's like these certain small things
Speaker 1: you can be doing, but at the same time we're
Speaker 1: developing like also bad habits around how we communicate to
Speaker 1: It's also crazy because everybody has a podcast, so how
Speaker 1: are they scared us? All? Yes, all right, guy interrupted,
Speaker 1: I'm saying it's also bad for people's well being, because
Speaker 1: there are studies which are showing that people's happiness it's
Speaker 1: not just about a long term relationship, but also about
Speaker 1: these most small interactions exactly the small talk, this eye
Speaker 1: contact and a smile that really changed the way your
Speaker 1: brain works and makes you feel much better. And if
Speaker 1: you're not doing that, and if you're just walking in
Speaker 1: a street with your phone, looking at your pictures, answering text,
Speaker 1: and you're missing all these opportunities which somehow just makes
Speaker 1: you feel drained and tired and not good at the
Speaker 1: end of the day. Just when it comes to policy,
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a difficult path ahead, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, like we saw how seriously they took privacy
Speaker 1: in Europe. The US is a little bit behind, a
Speaker 1: lot behind. It's like say, for maybe like California and
Speaker 1: a couple other places, but like in just in the
Speaker 1: recent hearing on TikTok, it's so clear, at least in
Speaker 1: that the narrow context of that hearing, like they just
Speaker 1: weren't even able or willing to discuss the broader problems
Speaker 1: with social media, and it became sort of this like
Speaker 1: very TikTok specific thing. While we've seen to your point,
Speaker 1: whistleblowers at like Facebook, etc. Say like these are real issues,
Speaker 1: they've had hearings, but then we're not quite seeing the
Speaker 1: follow through. What you know, what kind of like policy
Speaker 1: proposals are out there, do you think are would actually
Speaker 1: benefit people in a way that sort of gets to
Speaker 1: the heart of you know, like our overuse of technology,
Speaker 1: obviously knowing the parts that it's helped make things easier
Speaker 1: for us, but also addressing like the bigger issues of
Speaker 1: you know, feeling increasingly isolated and things like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I think first of all, the issue with TikTok
Speaker 1: is complicated because it just brings out completely different issues
Speaker 1: related to China, and it just it's sort of marking
Speaker 1: the whole debate. Yeah, but there have been a lot
Speaker 1: of bills both further all in state trying to get
Speaker 1: first of all, the addictive features of the phones, because
Speaker 1: there's some features on our phones which are really up
Speaker 1: to no good. What are those from the flashlight? The
Speaker 1: flashlight is useful, but you know, for example, streaks on Snapchat. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there are there for nothing but to get you to
Speaker 1: go back to the platform. So kids have to set kids.
Speaker 1: I don't think many adults use it, but you know,
Speaker 1: they have to send a streak to their friend and
Speaker 1: if they get one within twenty four hours, they've established
Speaker 1: a street and they keep accummolating them and then they
Speaker 1: have a number, let's one, one hundred and thirty four.
Speaker 1: They have special badges and they have older friends onto
Speaker 1: the number of streaks. Now, there's no requirement for any
Speaker 1: content in these streaks. You just have to make sure
Speaker 1: you send it. Why because you go to snapcheck and
Speaker 1: you see the ads and if the kids miss a day,
Speaker 1: they lose everything and they lose all their friends. And
Speaker 1: that's why they get so upset when the parents take
Speaker 1: away the phone, because they for them it's a huge thing.
Speaker 1: So all these kinds of features like Snapstreak, you have
Speaker 1: just there to make it go back to the app
Speaker 1: with a device, are not needed, and there are builds
Speaker 1: which are trying to outlaw these kinds of features. Of course,
Speaker 1: the problem is they'll always come with new ones. Because
Speaker 1: the whole business model is based on our time and
Speaker 1: our data. They need us to be there for as
Speaker 1: long as possible so they can collect more data on us,
Speaker 1: so they can target advertising at us, and again we
Speaker 1: have to be there for longer so we can see
Speaker 1: the ads. So that's why I think it's not just
Speaker 1: one thing, not just one law, not just one wonderful
Speaker 1: Supreme Court case. It's not going to happen like that.
Speaker 1: It's going to happen from a mixture of things that
Speaker 1: are going to happen, Like if you have the antitrust
Speaker 1: lasses against big tech, that if, for example, the merger
Speaker 1: between them, the right now matter owns Facebook owns WhatsApp
Speaker 1: owns the Instagram. If they're broken up and there's more morenivation,
Speaker 1: more competition, we might see the different business model which
Speaker 1: are not based on our time. So so that's another
Speaker 1: thing that's happening. I think, as I said earlier, I
Speaker 1: think the policy about maximize the technology in the school
Speaker 1: has to change because if Minecraft is homework, then how
Speaker 1: can you prevent your kid from play Minecraft at home?
Speaker 1: There are so there are a lot and then there's
Speaker 1: class actions and if you look back, it's cigarettes. You know,
Speaker 1: we know cigarettes are bad, but it took decades to
Speaker 1: change things. It took class actions, and it took advertising,
Speaker 1: and it took warnings and and this is this is
Speaker 1: going to be the same. It will take a lot
Speaker 1: of things at the same time. For example, let's say
Speaker 1: we have ratings for addictiveness. You know, so many parents
Speaker 1: download games for the kids, thinking oh, Minecraft is an
Speaker 1: educational game. If they could see before they download, this
Speaker 1: is high rating for addictiveness, they may not do that.
Speaker 1: But not only that, the game's company may change the
Speaker 1: game because they want people to download the game, so
Speaker 1: they might take the addictive features out by themselves. So
Speaker 1: it's a matter of pressuring from many directions to move
Speaker 1: things right. And like when you talk about cigarettes, I know,
Speaker 1: like the earlier ideas or like maybe in like the
Speaker 1: fifties where they knew where do you think we are,
Speaker 1: Like if the first studies come out there, Oh it's bad.
Speaker 1: Are we close to like the truth dot com era
Speaker 1: of like anti smoking ads? Or are we like a
Speaker 1: decade away? How I mean? I guess now everything is
Speaker 1: moving faster. So maybe what took you know, decades before,
Speaker 1: it might take seven years. I don't know. Well, I
Speaker 1: think what change would cigarettes? Yeah, you're right, the first
Speaker 1: studies came out in the fifties. Nineteen sixty four, the
Speaker 1: Certain General announces the Health Hazards It's amazing. It took
Speaker 1: so long considering how bad cigarettes are, right, but from
Speaker 1: then on we saw you know, advertising, we saw one.
Speaker 1: Things took a while, but they started shifting. Our problem
Speaker 1: is right now we are still in the science wars.
Speaker 1: We do not have you know, a big of metal
Speaker 1: organizations saying this is bad, especially for children. With the
Speaker 1: evidence is in, we just have partial recommendations for small
Speaker 1: kids about screens. I think we have so much data
Speaker 1: over the last two or three years. But I think
Speaker 1: we're at a place where medical organizations, governmental entities can
Speaker 1: make these proclamations and from that moment on polity and
Speaker 1: proceed faster. And we already have a lot of action
Speaker 1: in place, so I hope that, yeah, things will move faster.
Speaker 1: And with cigarettes, I think it will take some years.
Speaker 1: And that's why I think it's so important what people
Speaker 1: do in their communities, how they change their business norms,
Speaker 1: how they change their schools, because things have to happen
Speaker 1: at the same time. Otherwise it affects all of us
Speaker 1: not to mention a whole generation of kids already in
Speaker 1: front of screens for a decade plus a pandemic. Right.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you were talking about this now because
Speaker 1: ten years ago, when I was in a little bit
Speaker 1: more than ten years when I was in college, people
Speaker 1: were failing out of a very great college for Minecraft.
Speaker 1: Like it was a joke about how many students would
Speaker 1: fail because of their addiction to Minecraft specifically. So it's
Speaker 1: interesting that you use that and that they haven't really
Speaker 1: changed much. It seems like in the last you know, decade, Yeah,
Speaker 1: why change It's a winning formula. And what do you
Speaker 1: kind of say, because I like to you know, people
Speaker 1: that are frustrated, parents that are frustrated, who are like,
Speaker 1: am I fucking up? Like? Am I bad? Because would
Speaker 1: you say to Miles, my kid is too young although
Speaker 1: he loves the sopranos, I'm gonna say that whenever he
Speaker 1: turns his head, I'm like, I don't almost be the
Speaker 1: lights or the mom But like, what do you what
Speaker 1: I mean? Because I think again, there is this feeling
Speaker 1: of like it feels so personal that too when you
Speaker 1: talk to other parents about scream time, like, hey, what
Speaker 1: the fuck do you want me to do? Man? Like,
Speaker 1: it's I got a lot going on? This is this,
Speaker 1: this works? And I get that there is this internal
Speaker 1: sense of like responsibility. But then feeling helpless because there
Speaker 1: is like a what am I going to do a thing?
Speaker 1: What do you say to people who are sort of
Speaker 1: like in that mental space and like how to sort
Speaker 1: of emerge from that or at least to begin to
Speaker 1: look at the situation with a little more like context.
Speaker 1: So I'll start with you, Miles, since you have a
Speaker 1: very small baby, so I think for you it's easy
Speaker 1: because you can just decide not to give your baby screen.
Speaker 1: The studies are in the smaller child where the baby
Speaker 1: is the worst it is, and you have control. So
Speaker 1: and I think people have a lot of control all
Speaker 1: the way through a lamentary school that so I think
Speaker 1: parents can really limit kids screen time. The issue becomes
Speaker 1: when they get to middle school because social life is
Speaker 1: in social networks and you can't really eyes it at
Speaker 1: your child, and that's when it becomes a problem. And
Speaker 1: you can do things in the meantime. You can model.
Speaker 1: I mean I try when I'm home and all my
Speaker 1: kids are here, so I don't have to worry. I
Speaker 1: try to put the phones somewhere away from me, and
Speaker 1: so you can do things, and you can do small
Speaker 1: things for yourself. You know, again, when I work, because
Speaker 1: I am as I mentioned I'm as addicted as all
Speaker 1: of us despite everything I know. I always put my
Speaker 1: phone on twenty minutes a timer and I write for
Speaker 1: twenty minutes, and then I check my emails and I
Speaker 1: do this again. There are things you can do, and
Speaker 1: you can also kids remember the pandemic. They remember how
Speaker 1: they felt, so you can talk to your mind them
Speaker 1: how they felt horrible at that time and how they
Speaker 1: felt much better when they saw people, so you can
Speaker 1: make a difference. You cannot force an older kid not
Speaker 1: to do that. It's not going to work. I mean.
Speaker 1: And also that's smarter than us with technology, they'll always
Speaker 1: beat us. It's not going to happen. So I think
Speaker 1: it's a combination of doing what you can and while
Speaker 1: also realizing this the broader situation too, by not blaming yourself.
Speaker 1: It's the most important thing because that that is the
Speaker 1: problem now that people are sitting there and thinking it's
Speaker 1: all their fault. Right. Yeah, we're like in the plastic
Speaker 1: straws debate where we're like, actually, what about No, it
Speaker 1: can't be down to my level. What about the companies
Speaker 1: that are actually the ones that are steering all of this?
Speaker 1: And I think that is an important thing to sort
Speaker 1: of resenter, like in the in the conversation, I have
Speaker 1: a couple of comments to make on that I do
Speaker 1: think that like watching kids, because I tootor a lot
Speaker 1: of kids and like watching them. I feel like overall,
Speaker 1: with technology, just like with life, like you, you really
Speaker 1: do have to raise them the way that you think
Speaker 1: you should raise them, and then try to be as
Speaker 1: involved as you can without being overbearing and allow them
Speaker 1: to like make their mistakes, and then you kind of
Speaker 1: have to hope that like those values that you passed
Speaker 1: on to them guide their use of technology as well,
Speaker 1: and that they come to you when they're scared or
Speaker 1: they like need help with something. It seems like to me,
Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a parent to dogs, so I don't
Speaker 1: have to worry about this. But we did watch the
Speaker 1: Public Bowl and they were addicted. But also the other
Speaker 1: thing is you're talking about how you don't have to
Speaker 1: worry about it with smaller children, But FaceTime is how
Speaker 1: I stay connected with my nephew, And I know plenty
Speaker 1: of people that purposefully like FaceTime family members like they're
Speaker 1: infant children, just so that they hear the voice, they
Speaker 1: see the face. Then they start associating that face with
Speaker 1: the screen, you know, with the good feelings with the screen.
Speaker 1: But that's the only way, like I can keep in
Speaker 1: touch with him because he's it's such a long distance
Speaker 1: and I know that's slightly different than games and stuff,
Speaker 1: but I also want to worry about that, you know.
Speaker 1: I think it's a great example because it's important to
Speaker 1: also remember that not or screen is made alike. I think,
Speaker 1: you know, connecting with people over FaceTime is a great thing,
Speaker 1: especially relatives who live away. You know, being able to
Speaker 1: read the New Times or any news is different. The
Speaker 1: problem becomes when you're selling things as educational games and
Speaker 1: people are playing them and they get all these dopamine
Speaker 1: bursts from playing, or social networks you get the dopamine
Speaker 1: burst from the comments and the likes. So there's a
Speaker 1: big difference between games and social networks or or YouTube
Speaker 1: where the one short video you know, hands and the
Speaker 1: next one stalls and and talking to Grandma on FaceTime. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: that makes me feel better, thank you. Yeah, it's I mean,
Speaker 1: it's but I mean, these are all things, like like
Speaker 1: you said, like Paula, be like you have concerns, Like
Speaker 1: I was, like talking to my dad on FaceTime who
Speaker 1: was like not able to see my son and for
Speaker 1: you and you, I mean he's not really able, like
Speaker 1: he can't my son can't see na where he's like
Speaker 1: associated all this too, but to your point, like how
Speaker 1: the beginnings of your relationship to the screen begins, and
Speaker 1: and and guy, you also mentioned this too, like like
Speaker 1: not using the phone in front of the kids too,
Speaker 1: because I've seen my other friends do that where they're
Speaker 1: trying to say like I don't want my kid to
Speaker 1: think that when you're not doing something, you look at
Speaker 1: your phone or that that's that's what is normal, Like
Speaker 1: you can be active, or you can do other things,
Speaker 1: or you can like read a physical book. But some
Speaker 1: I've heard people say like I don't want my kids
Speaker 1: like early memories of like me being like I'm looking
Speaker 1: down at this like glowing rectangle and baby, ye see
Speaker 1: that that just like sort of the most normal thing. Obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, we have to use our phones. But I
Speaker 1: get that they're like it's it's all very subtle and
Speaker 1: how like kids begin to like see what's normal or
Speaker 1: not normal? Yeah, and I think you know that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the studies show that parents who are having users their
Speaker 1: kids also, have you used the phone. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: it's hard. You know you're there, but you're using a
Speaker 1: phone because you're texting your babysitters and you can't find
Speaker 1: a babysitt and you're texting another. So it's it's not Sally,
Speaker 1: it's not. There's no perfect solution. We're not living in
Speaker 1: a perfect world for this, so we can just try
Speaker 1: our best, but it's not. There's no easy way out
Speaker 1: right now right, I think that sums up so many
Speaker 1: of what we're experiencing in this present moment. Can I
Speaker 1: just say something that might help this story come full circle? Yes? Um,
Speaker 1: I just an article that said Pablo Xavier, a thirty
Speaker 1: one year old construction worker from the Chicago area, said
Speaker 1: he was tripping on shrooms last week when he came
Speaker 1: up with the idea for Pope Francis his puffy jacket image.
Speaker 1: So he was out in the world something drugs, yes,
Speaker 1: experiencing community and nature and stuff when he came up
Speaker 1: with the things that'll do to your brain. You know,
Speaker 1: just yeah, small talk with people. But again, I think yeah,
Speaker 1: important that if we understand that it's like this very
Speaker 1: complex issue where it's such a double edged sword where
Speaker 1: it's given us things like being able to connect with
Speaker 1: people when we need to and in ways that are
Speaker 1: much better than just like talking over the phone or
Speaker 1: writing something. But at the same time there's also this
Speaker 1: like commodified monetized, you know, use of technology that is
Speaker 1: purely built on extracting as much eyeball time from you
Speaker 1: as possible, and you know, not reckoning with that is
Speaker 1: creating a bit of a slippery slope. But that's why
Speaker 1: I thank you so much, Professor Guy burn Scene for
Speaker 1: stopping by the daily sitegeist. Where can people find you
Speaker 1: and your work and read more from you if they
Speaker 1: would like to? So my website is guy burns seem
Speaker 1: dot com and my book is available on Amazon Bars
Speaker 1: and I will every every place you would normally purchase
Speaker 1: your book. And thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, you classed up the joint with
Speaker 1: your apies. And is there any work of social media
Speaker 1: or anything that you would like to point to that
Speaker 1: you were enjoying If not, it's all it's I get it.
Speaker 1: We're trying to get enjoying you not the right world.
Speaker 1: But I've been looking at Israeli and there's been lots
Speaker 1: going on the protest, and my best friends sent me
Speaker 1: a video of herr and thousands of women dressed as
Speaker 1: the Handmaid's Tail costume because there's a big constitutional reform
Speaker 1: attempt which also undermine the rights of women LGBTQ people.
Speaker 1: So I look at this video a lot, and I'm
Speaker 1: happy to be able to see this video even though
Speaker 1: I was not there, and I still wish I was
Speaker 1: there with everybody. Yeah, it shows you what what a
Speaker 1: general strike can do too, because I believe Netanyahu said
Speaker 1: he's going to delay that plan as a result of that. Hey,
Speaker 1: collectivism works, you know, general strikes, Trium out America and Polavie.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me today. Where can
Speaker 1: people find you and follow you? See you all that?
Speaker 1: And what's a tweet that you like? I'm at Pola
Speaker 1: Viganalan everywhere. Good luck spelling that. I'm tired of spelling
Speaker 1: it out. I've been doing a lot of stand up lately,
Speaker 1: so come see me perform because I don't want to,
Speaker 1: as a content creator, have to post to Instagram every
Speaker 1: day so that real will pop off so I can
Speaker 1: just be on stage surrounded by people. I don't like
Speaker 1: that either, that I get punished for not posting everything
Speaker 1: all the time. I am. I'm so tired of it.
Speaker 1: My favorite tweet this have you seen banshees of any year? In? No,
Speaker 1: it's on my list though, Oh my god, it is
Speaker 1: so good. Yeah. But it's about a friendship falling out.
Speaker 1: And there was an image of the two main characters
Speaker 1: you know in that from that movie, and then someone tweeted,
Speaker 1: I just don't want to do laundry and taxes with
Speaker 1: you no more. It's a valium breaking up his friendship.
Speaker 1: And then someone else quote tweeted that with nothing nowhere,
Speaker 1: never happening again, and I thought that was amazing. And
Speaker 1: that was at Senna Cianna Dublin and at Runs with Skizzers.
Speaker 1: All right. You can find me at Miles of Gray
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram. I've been I don't know anything.
Speaker 1: What have I liked on? I haven't I'm not gonna,
Speaker 1: haven't looked on. Oh. I like all the messages people
Speaker 1: have sent me on Instagram welcoming back. That has been fantastic.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate all the listeners reaching out with your
Speaker 1: kind words and reminding me that I will know how
Speaker 1: to say foot notes when the time does come. You
Speaker 1: can also find Jack and own our basketball Poe cast
Speaker 1: Miles and Jack got Matt boosties. Also, I'm on four
Speaker 1: twenty Day Fiance We'll be coming back soon where Sophia,
Speaker 1: Alexander and I talk about our favorite reality show, ninety
Speaker 1: Day Beyonce. You can find us at Daily z et
Speaker 1: Geist on Twitter, at the Daily ze Geist on Instagram,
Speaker 1: got a Facebook fan page and website Daily zat geys
Speaker 1: dot com. We're posted episodes on our footnotes probably one
Speaker 1: time footnote footnotes thank you, where you can find leading
Speaker 1: all the articles that we talked about, as well as
Speaker 1: the song we are going to ride out on. What
Speaker 1: song is that? Oh well, thank you for asking. Today.
Speaker 1: We are going to go out on this track called
Speaker 1: Grateful by El Michael's Affair with Black Doought rapping over it.
Speaker 1: El Michael's Affair is a great band. I love all
Speaker 1: their instrument of music. Black Dot is the goat you
Speaker 1: know when he starts rhyming. This track is really dope,
Speaker 1: is heavy. If you like Black Doot, you're gonna like this.
Speaker 1: If you like hip hop, you've got to check this out.
Speaker 1: And even if you don't, it's a good track. It's
Speaker 1: called Grateful, which we are for sure. Oh Michael's affair
Speaker 1: in Black thought, that's gonna do it for us today.
Speaker 1: We're gonna be back later with to tell you what's trending,
Speaker 1: and then tomorrow with a whole new episode. So until then,
Speaker 1: just you know. This is a production of iHeartRadio. So
Speaker 1: for more podcasts, check out the iHeartRadio app for app
Speaker 1: podcast wherever you get them. All right, talk to you
Speaker 1: then bye.