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Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season two eighty one,

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Speaker 1: Episode two of The Daily Site Geist. This is still

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Speaker 1: a production the iHeartRadio. It's still a podcast where we

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Speaker 1: still take a deep dive into America's shared consciousness. It's Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: March twenty eight, twenty twenty three. I feel like Jack

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Speaker 1: wasn't really telling you what national day is because sometimes

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. But I'll just tell you what it is.

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Speaker 1: It's National Black forest Cake Day, National Weed Appreciation Day,

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Speaker 1: not cannabis, but just the weeds that grow in your yards.

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Speaker 1: American Diabetes Association Alert Day, and National Triglycerides Day Wow.

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Speaker 1: And something on a Stick Day for those of you

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Speaker 1: that indulge with things on sticks like marshmallows or carrots

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Speaker 1: or whatever, what have you. My name is Miles Gray

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Speaker 1: aka the Heartbroup Heartbroken Brewing as I watched UCLA crash

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Speaker 1: out of Gonzaga on Thursday. But I am back, and

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Speaker 1: I am still Hideo NoHo, and I am thrilled to

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Speaker 1: be joined by my college today. A hilarious comedian, someone

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Speaker 1: who's doing good whenever they possibly can, and a wonderful host.

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Speaker 1: Uh oh my god, forgive me. What's the stand up

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Speaker 1: show again. I've been on leave too long. I'll introduce you. First.

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Speaker 1: It's plain thank you. First of all, that just reminds

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Speaker 1: me that my tred list rides are high. And second,

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Speaker 1: all carrots on a stick, bro, have more fun. What

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Speaker 1: are you doing is a stick? Oh wow? So you

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Speaker 1: would okay, stick, if you're going to improve upon the form,

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Speaker 1: you would put something upon the carrot, upon the carrot.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. Okay, but engineer mine, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean? Yes? Yes, what was a stand up

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Speaker 1: show again? So I have a city council. It's a podcast.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but I've been real lazy

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Speaker 1: about it. So nobody get mad at me. I get it,

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Speaker 1: I get it, I get it. Play we have we

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Speaker 1: got one of those guests that come on. We're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we got someone smart, we got someone that's an expert,

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Speaker 1: someone who I can ask questions to, like white technology,

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Speaker 1: making me sad, because that's exactly what we're going to

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Speaker 1: be doing today. We have to introduce our guests. She

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Speaker 1: is the Technology, Privacy and Policy Professor of Law Code,

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Speaker 1: director of the Institute for Privacy Protection, and co director

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Speaker 1: of the Gibbons Institute of Law. Science and Technology at

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Speaker 1: Seton Hall University and the author of the book Unwired

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Speaker 1: Gaining Control over Addictive Technologies. Please welcome, Guya Burnsday guy, welcome,

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you for having me. Oh, thank you

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Speaker 1: for blessing us on this second rate podcast with your

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Speaker 1: first rate acumen. But yes, we really appreciate you stopping by.

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Speaker 1: I like that she comes with her own AKA. She

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Speaker 1: had so many titles, I know, yeah, yeah, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: like those are legit over here. I'm saying, like I'm

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Speaker 1: the lord of lancershim Boulevard. That's not a real thing,

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Speaker 1: but for the people in North Hollywood, California, they know

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Speaker 1: it is. But guya, welcome to the show. Where are

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Speaker 1: you coming to us from today? From New York City

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Speaker 1: all the way? Okay, okay um, And yeah, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about your book and some other

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Speaker 1: technology things as we get into it. But how has

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Speaker 1: it been, you know, doing doing a few interviews, getting

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Speaker 1: out there talking with interesting people? Are we the most

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Speaker 1: interesting people you've spoken with so far? Without really being

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Speaker 1: ten minutes into a conversation, can we for sure? You're

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Speaker 1: the funniest nobody? Okay, y, that's all I ever wanted. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're the funniest for sure. Okay, well, gaya, we are

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Speaker 1: going to get to know you a little bit better.

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Speaker 1: But first we're gonna tell people some of the things

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about. First, the Pope's puffy jacket, No,

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Speaker 1: he is not. His style is not that lit. Although

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Speaker 1: I guess many people would love if the pont Effects

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Speaker 1: was doing a pontifflex upon us mortals on planet Earth.

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Speaker 1: But we'll talk about that AI generated image. I just

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Speaker 1: remember some people the evolution of people being like I

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Speaker 1: can't believe it to them like, oh, yeah, I knew

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Speaker 1: that was AI the whole time. Yeah, I knew. I

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Speaker 1: knew the slippery slope that we're all, are you finding

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Speaker 1: ourselves on in the last couple of weeks. With that,

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Speaker 1: we'll also talk about Apple, because it seems like they're

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Speaker 1: also ignoring the total lack of enthusiasm for virtual reality

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Speaker 1: headsets with their upcoming you know, mixed reality headset that

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Speaker 1: I can't believe they're still insisting is something we might want.

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Speaker 1: But we'll talk a little bit about that and the

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Speaker 1: you know, lack of confidence that some of the people

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Speaker 1: working on it are experiencing. And then gotta talk to

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Speaker 1: Gaya about Look, I'm a new parent. I'm very aware

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Speaker 1: of you know, just how many other parents too or

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Speaker 1: talk about screen time. I was raised by my mother

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Speaker 1: like saying, don't watch the TV. It's going to rot

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Speaker 1: your brain. And how all of these things have evolved.

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Speaker 1: So I'm really interested in talking to you about sort

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Speaker 1: of the evolution of our addictive technologies and kind of

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Speaker 1: we're you know, hurtling towards this very isolated way of living,

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Speaker 1: because that's something we talk about a lot from the show.

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Speaker 1: But first, Guya, we gotta ask you, Professor Guya Birdstein Party,

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Speaker 1: what is something from your search history that might reveal

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Speaker 1: something about who you are, what you're into right now?

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Speaker 1: So you know, I like this question because I remember

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Speaker 1: going to a conference and seeing a slide and having

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Speaker 1: the Google search, but instead it said I confess. So basically,

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Speaker 1: whatever is in our search is like what's going for

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Speaker 1: our brains, and there's nothing special in my chest. Basically

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Speaker 1: it shows how my brain just jumps from one thing

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Speaker 1: to another. So I would be researching a privacy class,

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Speaker 1: so I would look for a movie about drones. Then

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Speaker 1: I remember, I know this person. I wrote an article

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Speaker 1: so I will switch to googling their name, and then

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Speaker 1: a minute later, I'll remember that I have to feed

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Speaker 1: my kids, and there's this fish in the fridge and

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Speaker 1: of a recipe, so I look for the recipe, and

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Speaker 1: then I recall that I never got grocery, so I

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Speaker 1: switched to googling the fresh Direct. So and all of

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Speaker 1: this happens in ten minutes. So really this you can

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Speaker 1: see how my brain operates from this? Sure? Sure? And

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Speaker 1: do you It is funny when you can kind of

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Speaker 1: look at your own stream of consciousness via Google searches

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Speaker 1: and you're like, wow, I had I had an interesting

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Speaker 1: two hours right there from like looking at wait, so

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Speaker 1: what's this? What kind of drone stuff were you looking up? Well?

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Speaker 1: I was looking up for I teach about privacy and drones.

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Speaker 1: And actually the first time I showed my student drones

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Speaker 1: it was when COVID nineteen broke in China, and I

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Speaker 1: just was the only video I found online. So they

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Speaker 1: started to show it to them, never realizing that a

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Speaker 1: month later this is going to be here, and this

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Speaker 1: was just showing them how drones can basically fly over

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Speaker 1: an empty city and how it looks and how it

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Speaker 1: takes pictures and it was shocking to know what happened next. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what kind of privacy laws are there with drones, because

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's I get that, like you're not

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Speaker 1: supposed to do like fly drones in certain areas, but

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Speaker 1: like in LA, I see so many people like in

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Speaker 1: residential areas, Like I'll hear the were of like a

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Speaker 1: drone and it's like what I saw on like the

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Speaker 1: murder Trial documentary had like drones that were flying and

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Speaker 1: watching as people remove funds from a place, like it

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Speaker 1: was like legit evidence and it was just a dude

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Speaker 1: with a drone. Yeah, there's not enough. The main thing

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Speaker 1: has to do is registered with the FAA, but it's

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Speaker 1: not Basically you can do a lot with the drone

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Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, the kid with a drone right exactly.

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Speaker 1: And I see like, but then I see videos or

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Speaker 1: people are like I took a drone down that was

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Speaker 1: above my home, And part of me is like, I

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Speaker 1: guess that's fair if you're using a bolow to take

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Speaker 1: a drone down. But yeah, it's good to know. Starting

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Speaker 1: early on the Robot Wars, you know, yeah, right, I

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Speaker 1: mean alrighty, it's funny when you see like people help

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Speaker 1: sometimes help the delivery robots get across the street, and

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Speaker 1: then you see like the like ludite type people who

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Speaker 1: are like, man, this robot like kick it over, and

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Speaker 1: you're just like, just decide on one miles. You should

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Speaker 1: know that ludites were a name for revolutionary workers. Come on, yes,

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Speaker 1: I know, but look and just like we should be

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Speaker 1: smashing chat GPT, we should probably smashing them printing presses.

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Speaker 1: I get that. Man, that's a whole other boxel worms too.

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Speaker 1: In the last couple of days of talking like really

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Speaker 1: earnestly with people about AI and some people really being

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Speaker 1: on the side of like it's a great tool that

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Speaker 1: could make things so much easier, and as somebody who

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Speaker 1: has been laid off before or look how budget cuts

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Speaker 1: their man, I'm like, that looks like a way to

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Speaker 1: condense like fifteen jobs into two. But are we then

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Speaker 1: grappling with the complexity of that after I'm like torn

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Speaker 1: because I did work in AI in my PhD that

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Speaker 1: I quit. But I think like everything gets like automated,

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Speaker 1: and job security just like constantly changes as technology evolves.

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Speaker 1: So I think that responsibility like definitely like the people

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Speaker 1: making the tech need to be talking to policymakers more

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Speaker 1: to prepare like the masses for like the skill changes

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Speaker 1: that like I mean, think about computer scientists now versus

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Speaker 1: fifteen years ago, like the like the job market that's

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Speaker 1: completely changed, you know. And I think AI is scary

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Speaker 1: because of what we're going to talk about next, But

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Speaker 1: there are good uses for it. It's just like people

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Speaker 1: are I'm like, I'm not going to be impressed with

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Speaker 1: AI until someone makes like a single printer that works reliably,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like, I don't care about

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Speaker 1: all of these advances. I just want a printer to work,

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Speaker 1: you know. I want a PowerPoint to not defeat a professor. Okay, guy,

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Speaker 1: what are you? How are you? Like? What's how it

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Speaker 1: is sort of AI sort of intersect with your work

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Speaker 1: right now? Well, I think I feel like the writing

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Speaker 1: has been on the wall for a while. People are

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Speaker 1: so shocked that chat GPT came in, and what are

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Speaker 1: they going to do with students and how are they

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Speaker 1: going to learn anything? But but seriously, we've just been

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Speaker 1: incorporated technology into the classroom, like without even thinking so,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly this thing is there and it's the first

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Speaker 1: time we are stopping to think and realizing maybe maybe

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Speaker 1: not all technology is good. Maybe a kid would not

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Speaker 1: learn if they their essays written by chat YPT. So

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Speaker 1: even though I'm concern about what's going to happen, I'm

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Speaker 1: sort of happy there's some kind of wake up coal here, right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I talked to some professors about this. I talked to

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Speaker 1: a professor from Germany and he was saying that they

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Speaker 1: do use like AI to write essays, but the ways

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Speaker 1: to get around that is they have like rival technology

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Speaker 1: to detect when AI is being used to write the essay.

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Speaker 1: So that's what's happening in Europe right now. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, how how much is this going to go

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Speaker 1: back and forth? This is like a kid battling their

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Speaker 1: parent with parental controls, you know what I mean, like

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Speaker 1: try to lock them out with the password, right, and

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Speaker 1: that never goes anywhere because there's always a new technology,

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Speaker 1: and it's just yeah, but the fact we have we're

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Speaker 1: faced by this and it's out there. There was no warning.

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Speaker 1: It just came the CHAGYBT and I was supposed to

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Speaker 1: deal with the consequences and there's no time to think

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Speaker 1: even yeah out here. Yeah, And because i They're like

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Speaker 1: I have friends too, who are like in grant writing too,

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Speaker 1: they're not born writers, you know, they're just like motivated

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Speaker 1: people in the field that they do in grant writing

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Speaker 1: is difficult, and they're like, it's taken a lot of

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Speaker 1: work off of my plate. I'm not a born writer

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Speaker 1: or like I have these literary skill to be writing

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Speaker 1: like compelling things. It's much easier to use that. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I completely understand where these tools like how

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Speaker 1: they're used. And then I have friends who work in

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Speaker 1: advertising who are like, yeah, company clients are now coming

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Speaker 1: to us with like half baked decks that AI generated,

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Speaker 1: and it's like sort of diminishing the kinds of work

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Speaker 1: that we're able to do even as advertising agencies along

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Speaker 1: with them. And I'm like, you see, you see where

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Speaker 1: the sort of the squeezing and expansion is beginning to happen.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it's this is why robots need to take

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Speaker 1: over all of the labor. And then we just get

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Speaker 1: to frolic and fields all day. Thank you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, Let us let us frolic let us easier times. Oh,

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Speaker 1: we just consume and sit on our screens and nothing

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Speaker 1: else because wale, Okay, Kyle, what is something that you

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Speaker 1: think is overrated. What I think is overrated. I think

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Speaker 1: it's um basically nexting progress. So I'll give you two

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Speaker 1: examples what I mean by that. So I am supposed

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Speaker 1: to meet a friend in a restaurant and she arrives

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Speaker 1: five minutes early, so she texts me'm I just got here,

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Speaker 1: And then she texts me two minutes later. I'm sitting

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Speaker 1: at the corner on the table, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: I come in and instead of looking for her, I

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Speaker 1: text her I'm here. And why all these extra texting?

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Speaker 1: It's not really necessary? Or I live in New York City.

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Speaker 1: We order food all the time. We order delivery, so

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Speaker 1: you know, you get confirmation when you order food. I

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Speaker 1: guess that's good. You know your order got in. But

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Speaker 1: then you get another text your food is being prepared,

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Speaker 1: and then you get another one your delivery is on

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Speaker 1: the way. And then usually like two minutes after we're delivered,

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Speaker 1: you get a text saying congratulations your food is aliver Right, right?

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Speaker 1: Do we really need all of this? That makes me think,

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Speaker 1: you know, like the constant progress alerts has to be

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Speaker 1: something that I know, like in your book, you touch

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Speaker 1: on like the idea that a lot of technology stuff

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Speaker 1: is informed by like like neuropsychologists too, and just the

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Speaker 1: idea of like what's going to get someone like this

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Speaker 1: is actually a future that people want even though we're

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Speaker 1: like do we But I also get it in the

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Speaker 1: age of such instant gratification that it's probably for the

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Speaker 1: kinds of people who are like, well, what's going on

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Speaker 1: with my order? Like where is it? And then you

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Speaker 1: can at least have Oh okay, they've they're preparing it.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, they have another stop along the way. Right.

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Speaker 1: We spent a little top because every time I get

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Speaker 1: one of these texts, I just just say, Okay, the

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Speaker 1: food is coming, my kids will get dinner. I start

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Speaker 1: looking at my emails and I start taking a Facebook

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Speaker 1: and I've spent ten minutes just because I got this

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Speaker 1: extra text. Wow. Also, it takes the responsibility off of

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Speaker 1: the person to be like patient, you know what I

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Speaker 1: mean like that, and that makes like more face to

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Speaker 1: face conversations and demands like much more terrifying, because people

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Speaker 1: expect efficiency at their demand and at their service, you know,

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Speaker 1: right right. I was just I just was thinking of

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Speaker 1: recently I got like a like a like a like

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Speaker 1: a delivery thing and it was like telling me. They're like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this package will arrive in like five days from now,

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Speaker 1: four days from now. I'm like, yeah, I knew that

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Speaker 1: when you gave me the like, you know, expected delivery date.

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Speaker 1: And to that point, I'm like, maybe this is for

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Speaker 1: a very specific kind of psychology that it's catering to,

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Speaker 1: because it certainly was not me. Guya, what's something you

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Speaker 1: think is underrated? Well, two things which I related, I

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Speaker 1: think alarm clocks and wrist watches. So if I had

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Speaker 1: an alarm clock, instead of using the alarm on my phone,

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Speaker 1: instead of getting up in the morning in bed and

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Speaker 1: picking up my phone and force checking my email, three

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Speaker 1: email accounts, my social networks and what's up whatever text,

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Speaker 1: I could maybe just you know, woke wake up in

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Speaker 1: a more normal way. But if I don't, I don't

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Speaker 1: have separate alarm. I'm dreaming about that to get to one.

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Speaker 1: And another thing is ast wristwatch. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: have one either. I actually lost it three months ago

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Speaker 1: and get a chance to buy a new a new one.

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Speaker 1: But so every time I want to know the time again,

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Speaker 1: I pick up my phone and I just described what happens.

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Speaker 1: So I think this are things that if they came

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Speaker 1: back into fashion, would be great. I know. That's what

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Speaker 1: Like the Apple watch was like so insidious, Like I

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Speaker 1: got it in the beginning of the pandemic, like as

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Speaker 1: like a heart rate monitor too, because I was like

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Speaker 1: running more and I was like, oh, this is great

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Speaker 1: and I can I don't have to bring an iPod.

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Speaker 1: I can like listen with my like with my wrist

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Speaker 1: watch without it's like less bulk. But to your point, now,

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Speaker 1: when I look at my wrist, it's for so much

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Speaker 1: more than the time, and it's yeah, the the amounts

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Speaker 1: of information on offer from such a small devices, it

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Speaker 1: can definitely take your attention. And I was a kid.

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Speaker 1: I used to wear a wristwatch and like they're great,

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Speaker 1: and I was the only one who did so I

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Speaker 1: was like a little baby businessman and I always needed

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Speaker 1: it before I went to school. Hall I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be late, mother, Let's get there right right,

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Speaker 1: That's all I have to offer to You're like, you're like, well, no,

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Speaker 1: we have plenty of time, Like well is your watch

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Speaker 1: said to the atomic clock like mine, because we are behind,

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Speaker 1: we have to go. That was but it's funny. I

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Speaker 1: also like wore a wrist watch too, Like was one

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Speaker 1: of those like nerdy kids just like to have like

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Speaker 1: a watch, Like yeah, it's like or be like a

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Speaker 1: um actually type kid were like, oh, we should actually

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Speaker 1: go into recess because it's already like one thirty. They didn't.

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Speaker 1: Are you a roller backpack kid? No, rolliebags came out

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Speaker 1: my junior year of high school. That's like when we

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Speaker 1: hit peak rolliebag. I'm a I'm an elder. So the

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Speaker 1: earliest people that I remember there was this one girl

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Speaker 1: I would school, a Libby. She I remember she heard

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Speaker 1: her back like like you know, playing in the yard

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Speaker 1: or whatever, and the doctor told her she couldn't wear

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Speaker 1: a backpack. So she had like a travel suitcase that

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Speaker 1: she would bring around. So funny to us, you were

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Speaker 1: like that it was the o g rolliebag was just

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Speaker 1: bringing a travel suitcase around. I have thought about doing

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Speaker 1: that at the girl through store before I got a car.

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Speaker 1: I was like this closed to bringing just a suitcase

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Speaker 1: grostery store. I love the efficiency. I love the efficiency.

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Speaker 1: So guy, await, So I love that You're like, you'd

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Speaker 1: be great to having a long clock. Me myself don't

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Speaker 1: have one, but I think it would be fantastic. What's

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Speaker 1: I love, like the sort of paradoxical relationship we all

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Speaker 1: have with these kinds of things, or like that's what

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Speaker 1: I need. Don't have one yet, but I feel it's

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Speaker 1: something I could that could definitely help me. Yeah, Miss Gaya,

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Speaker 1: Mother Earth, she wakes up with the sun. Okay, come down,

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Speaker 1: I wait with the sun, but not because I want to,

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Speaker 1: because I had Okay, cool, Well, let's take a quick

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Speaker 1: break and we'll be right back to talk about some

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Speaker 1: some really cool, uh Catholic fashion trends coming out of

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Speaker 1: Rome right after this. Over the weekend, Oh, we're back. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm rusty, folks. I've been on paternal leave parental leave,

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Speaker 1: and I've this is my first time speaking with people

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Speaker 1: over the age of like seven weeks old. So this

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Speaker 1: is helping me a lot as I slowly get back

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Speaker 1: into this. We're back, but I want to get into

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Speaker 1: our first story. So over the weekend, there was a

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Speaker 1: huge splash on social media when an image of the

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Speaker 1: Pope warring puffy white jacket came out and it was

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Speaker 1: the talk of many text threads and conversations between people

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Speaker 1: I know who are Catholic and they're Catholic parents who

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Speaker 1: are like, see, he's pretty cool, check him out. But

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Speaker 1: turns out it was an AI generated image, which left

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Speaker 1: many people sort of like ingenuine shock, and this like

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Speaker 1: the sort of journey of this image was. It was

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Speaker 1: first posted to the mid Journey AI subreddit and from there,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think if anyone knew where it was,

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Speaker 1: you go, oh, this is posted in the place where

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Speaker 1: people are posting AI generated images. But there there is

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Speaker 1: a Reddit to Twitter pipeline that most people aren't maybe

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Speaker 1: aren't aware of, or a lot of the context just

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Speaker 1: gets ripped and then put on Twitter immediately, sometimes with

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Speaker 1: no context or whatever. And then many people were like,

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Speaker 1: what is a go weighing on here? The pope looks

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Speaker 1: fantastic or is he really wearing all that? But I

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Speaker 1: think with anything, if you weren't looking on Twitter and

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Speaker 1: you kind of looked at a bigger image, you could

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Speaker 1: kind of see that there were some inconsistencies about just

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Speaker 1: you know, physics or like light or what kind of

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Speaker 1: crucifix even the pope would wear. But I was curious

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Speaker 1: if you all saw this picture and what your own

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Speaker 1: evolution of thoughts was with this. I saw it, and

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Speaker 1: I didn't think any thoughts. I just retweeted my friend's

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Speaker 1: tweet that said dope Francis because I thought that was cool,

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Speaker 1: and I also want to add some that was at

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Speaker 1: Beth Borden, and then I also want to add some

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Speaker 1: important context. She responded to her tweet with a comment

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Speaker 1: from Reddit that was like, Mussalms are sweaty knee, sweet

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Speaker 1: crosses heavy, last supper is ready. It's Lord Spaghetti by

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Speaker 1: Lebron James Johnson. So I didn't think any thoughts. I

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Speaker 1: guess I don't have enough Catholic friends. I was just like,

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Speaker 1: that's a funny joke, and I retweeted it because like

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Speaker 1: what he's wearing has no effect on any policies or

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Speaker 1: any real thing. So I was like, this is dumb.

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Speaker 1: But then later I was like, oh, yeah, I do

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Speaker 1: need to look at images more closely to know if

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Speaker 1: they're AI, but eventually it's going to get to a

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Speaker 1: point where we won't know. Yeah, I mean this this

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Speaker 1: kind of goes along with just like in the last

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Speaker 1: week there was like Helon Musk holding hands with AOC

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Speaker 1: or Trump getting arrested, and like there's one of Macron.

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Speaker 1: Also there's a lot of Trump makeout yeah yeah, and

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Speaker 1: like and with Trump, we know like that man is

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Speaker 1: not dynamic enough to ever cause emotion blur in in

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Speaker 1: a still image. So I was like this, Sai, my

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Speaker 1: man is not My mind is not that spry, Okay.

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Speaker 1: But again with like a lot of people were saying that,

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Speaker 1: like some there was maybe a reason why some people

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Speaker 1: were quick to at first quite possibly believe that this

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Speaker 1: was real because apparently there's a group of people that

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Speaker 1: think that he, like the Pope, is like very stylish,

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Speaker 1: and that there were rumors going around that he was

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Speaker 1: like wearing designer loafers that the Vatican had to debunk

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Speaker 1: because people are like, well, it's Rome. It's like fashion

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Speaker 1: is everywhere, and like why wouldn't he And then while

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Speaker 1: others were just like, I think it just goes part

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Speaker 1: in parcel with like people's celebrity worship or the idea

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Speaker 1: that just like oh yeah, yeah, that's I'd believe that

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Speaker 1: I buy that, or because how oversaturated even images of

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Speaker 1: celebrities look, that these Ai sort of imitations are just

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Speaker 1: sort of hitting all taking all these boxes visually that

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Speaker 1: are sort of our guards come down. Guya. What are

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Speaker 1: your thoughts on on dope, Francis, But that's in the

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Speaker 1: same I missed a bit, so sometimes I'm not inconsistent.

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Speaker 1: I actually follow what I preached, so I'd tried not

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Speaker 1: dispense too much time on Twitter, so I didn't see it.

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Speaker 1: But I agree with if you said basically, I mean

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Speaker 1: this is going to be perfect. I mean, right now

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Speaker 1: people can tell us AI, but it's just a matter

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Speaker 1: of time. And then the question is how do you

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Speaker 1: decide what's reality and what's real and what's not, which

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00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 1: has been an issue for a lot for quite a

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Speaker 1: while with words. But once you get into pictures, when

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Speaker 1: you lose When when a vision tells gets perfect, like

427
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 1: chatty pet will get perfect, that's when we really really

428
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 1: have a problem. Right. This is the image Guy of

429
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: just of him in this like puffy jacket. Oh wow,

430
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 1: so this because it was so fashionable, everyone was like, oh,

431
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: we love this, we love this. And again like you're saying, Guy,

432
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 1: like it's imperfect right now, And many people pointed out

433
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: these imperfections like like hands, we've seen that, like all

434
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 1: these AI have real trouble rendering like hands and legs,

435
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: like the Trump arresting like he had like he was

436
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 1: like a quadruped like in that image, and then a

437
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 1: lot of like other religious people were like, that is

438
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 1: not the kind of crucifix the pope would wear if

439
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 1: they look at that, or even like the way the

440
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 1: glasses frames were blending into the shadow of it were

441
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 1: like very you know, keen eyed people thought. But for

442
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 1: most people who are just looking at an image like

443
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: this on Twitter or like on a passive scroll, like

444
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 1: to your point, when they really dial things in, it's

445
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 1: truly gonna like the amount of like reconciliation that has

446
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 1: to happen in your brain to be like what am

447
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: I looking at is definitely going to increase. Yeah, And

448
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: I guess when you think about it, like what what

449
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 1: is the damage? I know there's some laws to regulate

450
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 1: you know, photography fakes in some states, not many of them,

451
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: but but they are all kinds of other harms that

452
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: can be caused by just you know, showing somebody in

453
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: a place they would never were, or where they're not

454
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: supposed to be with somebody they're not supposed to be

455
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 1: with them. I'm not sure it might again take years

456
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 1: until something is done about that, right. I wanted to

457
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: ask your thoughts because you are in law and so

458
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: accolated within it. How what about like the ramifications for

459
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: like court based evidence, Like already the justice system is

460
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: so flawed. How are we gonna you know, voicemail, voice notes, calls, images,

461
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: all of these are used as evidence. How do we

462
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 1: know what's going to be real and what's going to

463
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 1: be presented to a jury? Right? So, but with every

464
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 1: kind of evidence, there's always an analysis, you know. For example,

465
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: when we started getting DNA evidence, it took a while

466
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: until it was accepted. The problem here is photographs are

467
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: already accepted as evidence exactly, So you have to decide

468
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: how you treated you sort of do you start treating

469
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: it as less reliable? And that's confusing, right yeah, But

470
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: that's only so that's suddenly it's like, I'm sorry, this

471
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: video evidence is just not reliable because we're our ability

472
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 1: to fake everything and it could absolutely be something that

473
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: would you know, absolve someone of guilt or you know,

474
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: convict Someone's this this voicemail of Joe Biden saying the

475
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: N word on a call. No, like all the deep

476
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 1: pig voices of the presidents. They had him like singing

477
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: like rap lyrics since and it sounds like him, you know,

478
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: like all of the the AI voice. They have like

479
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 1: a lot of like gamer videos of Trump and Biden

480
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 1: and Obama playing video games together and using their voices,

481
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like yeah, to talk shit

482
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 1: to each other during a gameplay content I never wanted.

483
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: But I didn't hear one of a deep faked Trump.

484
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: And the one thing I was like, they can't get

485
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: his cadence right, Like the tone of voice was right,

486
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 1: but his way, his manner of speaking of like good

487
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 1: luck for the person who has to like program the

488
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: nuances of that speech to like into an algorithm, because

489
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 1: that's yeah. The Biden one was like, was there were

490
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: tiktoks of boomers being scared by their like millennial and

491
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: gen Z kids like hearing Biden like say the N

492
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 1: word and say all this like crazy stuff, and they

493
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: were like, oh my goodness. Like the use of the

494
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 1: propaganda for election campaigns, like by the time for this

495
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: image for example, like everybody saw it and then no

496
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: one saw the follow up story. You know that happens

497
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: all the time when even you know, human generated inaccurate

498
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: headlines are produced and then people don't see the corrections,

499
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: like the damage just already done. So what do we

500
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: do then, yeah, slippery slope, but I mean it sounds

501
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: like yeah, like as of now you can kind of

502
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: you can kind of tell because it looks like a

503
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: trippy oil painting. Still, if you look real close, the

504
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: skin's always shinier than it has to be. But yeah,

505
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 1: that's how I look in pictures. It's just like a

506
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: and we know I'll go with them teach themselves so

507
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 1: they will learn eventually how it look perfectly. It's really

508
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: a matter of time and awful lot of time until

509
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: it will be perfect, right. It's just yeah, it really

510
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: is a very interesting time because things are just feel

511
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: like they're just accelerating now to speed that like the nineties,

512
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,959
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, man, you heard a CD rom And

513
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: then it's like you don't need the caddy anymore. You

514
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: can insert the CD disc straight in. That was like

515
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 1: three years of time. And now we're going from like, hey,

516
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 1: you can swap faces on Snapchat to like you hear

517
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: Joe Biden say the N word on this phone call

518
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 1: and you're like, what, how it's kind of interesting how

519
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: we like will be reverting to like non technical stuff

520
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: because talking to that professor about the AI writing the essays.

521
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 1: The only fool proof way of making sure people don't

522
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: cheat is like, because you can try to get more

523
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: localized and specific with the topics, but eventually it's going

524
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: to get to a point where you have to just

525
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: like watch them write the essay in front of you

526
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 1: on paper, you know what I mean. And that's like

527
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 1: reverting back to when we didn't have it, Like we

528
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: use the technology so much it's irresponsible. Now we don't

529
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: get to use it anymore, you know, I think it

530
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 1: would be some advantages. You know, I've been sitting in

531
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: classrooms teaching students on Wi Fi for a while, and

532
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: I never understood why I have to compete against the Internet. Why, Well,

533
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: I'm talking everybody can be shopping on Instagram. And actually

534
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,239
Speaker 1: if you cut down to Wi Fi, which is how

535
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: people have to do exams, so they won't be able

536
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: to cheat and they'll have secure systems and the computers,

537
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: that might be place we should have gone earlier. Right, Yeah,

538
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: it is true. I mean, like I remember when I

539
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: got to college, like this was this is like the

540
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: beginning of laptops being just you know, ubiquitous, like they

541
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 1: were everywhere, and I remember like the first time I

542
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,959
Speaker 1: popped my laptop open. In my Spanish and Iberian history class,

543
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: I was looking at nonsense and I hadn't was absolutely

544
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: just missed the entire lesson because I was so amazed.

545
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I can do I can multitask

546
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: quote unquote, But really I was absolutely just distracting myself. Yeah,

547
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: and you doing versus school here in New York City.

548
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: I mean, kids were saying, how I supposed to study,

549
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: but he's playing games on the computers. I'm just watching

550
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: the kid next to me on the game. Right. Well,

551
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: this next story I think is really interesting because we're

552
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: talking about just sort of the speed at which we're

553
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: moving towards like not needing human interaction really anymore. You know,

554
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: Virtual reality or VR as I remember it in the

555
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: nineties was a real hook for people that were really

556
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: interested in technology, you know, like it was in film

557
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: and TV and video games, and like sort of gave

558
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: us this idea of like a world where all you

559
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: had to put on was a goofy looking hell helmet

560
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: and now you are experiencing a new reality. And it

561
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: was like I get that. From that time, We're like, Wow,

562
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: the ability of computers is fantastic. This could really be

563
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: something anyway, fast forward to now where no one is

564
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: interested in wearing a helmet to use Google Docs or

565
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: living on a beach digitally or whatever. Yet a lot

566
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: of the big tech companies are insisting that it's the

567
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: wave of the future. Specifically, you know, Mark Zuckerberg completely

568
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: took a big swing with the metaverse and ended up

569
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: being not what he thought it was going to be

570
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: because again, this was like a weird way from the

571
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: way he saw its, like, this is a new way

572
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: for people to work and toil. And I think most

573
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: people who are on that side of the equation, we're like, no,

574
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: don't don't want that at all. Actually, I'm fine with

575
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: the way we're doing it. I'm actually less distracted without

576
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: having to put on a VR headset and be in

577
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: some like emoji or like avatar based meeting or something

578
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: like that. And now Apple is just they're going full

579
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: steam ahead with their mixed reality heads and people that

580
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: have worked on the product are giving some insight now

581
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: to how the internal design team thinks it's going to be,

582
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: and it's not great. Quote. Some company insiders have been

583
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: wondering if the upcoming headset is a solution in search

584
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: of a problem sources still the media outlet that quote.

585
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: Unlike the iPod, which put digital songs in people's pockets,

586
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: and the iPhone, which combined the abilities of a music

587
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: player and a phone, the headset hasn't been driven by

588
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: the same clarity. And I can totally see that. I mean,

589
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: not only that, it sounds like they are numerous like

590
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: deserters of the project who are working on it, like

591
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,959
Speaker 1: at Apple, because they just felt that the end product

592
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: wasn't going to live up to like what they think

593
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: it's going to be, while like other people have been

594
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: fired because you know, they failed to make certain features work.

595
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: It's just when you look at it right now, we're

596
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: in a landscape where this is not necessarily a booming market,

597
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: like Meta has had to slash the price of their

598
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: top tier fifteen hundred dollar headset by a third to

599
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: try and entice people. This Apple headset, you know how much,

600
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,479
Speaker 1: is rumored to be three thousand dollars. They are not

601
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: going to Google glasses. I am sorry that is not happening.

602
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: I get that the Apple fans out there, they might

603
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: be like, oh yeah, I got it yesterday, But again,

604
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: this does feel like this weird thing where I'm not

605
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: really sure what this how this is making anything easier,

606
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: or what the novelty is going to be. And it

607
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: just feels like, again, like with all of our technology,

608
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: if we're like if in this world where maybe people

609
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: were using VR more, I'd imagine we're just going to

610
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: increasingly like more one dimensional forms of communication without much

611
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: real human contact. You know, it's hard to say, it's

612
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: how to say if what's happening, like what happened with videos,

613
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: Like for decades people were saying they're going to have

614
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: video conferencing and everything will be on video, and nothing

615
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: happened until quite recently, really until the pandemic, I would say,

616
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: nobody was really doing it. And I wonder if this

617
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: is just some kind of delay and eventually they will

618
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: find a way to do it. I mean, I was

619
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: worried about that. I was thinking, I mean, not only

620
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: in our screens all the time, if we're completely in

621
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: a different reality that we know, interaction between us whatsoever.

622
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: But I guess I'm relieved that this is delayed, but

623
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,479
Speaker 1: I'm not sure who delayed forever? Right? So do you

624
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: think it all way? Right? If like the very cynical

625
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: version is like We're on this very increasingly intense path

626
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: where technology is going to make things easier or whatever

627
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: or communication streamlined, which really means less human interaction. And

628
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: because of maybe that feeling of isolation, these headsets are

629
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: going to offer us some feeling of like humanity again.

630
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: Is that like maybe where it's gonna like the hook

631
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: point we'll return for it. They're like, hey, remember we

632
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: used to see people put this headset on. I feel

633
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: like this is I mean, that's why it was invented,

634
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: is because of like rich people's playgrounds, right, Like they

635
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: are isolated and they feel weird, and so they're like,

636
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: how are we going to perform our man hunts on

637
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: islands during the next pandemic? You know what I mean,

638
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: Let's go VR with it. But if you've ever used

639
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: a VR heads like I've played, I've done like gains

640
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: like at arcades and stuff with and it like it

641
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: literally makes me throw up. Like some of them have

642
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: been such unpleasant experiences, like fake roller coasters and stuff

643
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: that I got like really sick after in a way

644
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: that I never had gotten on like real roller coasters,

645
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I'm like, I'm like some

646
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: of it just feels I feel like some of it

647
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: could be used in Guantanamo, is what I'm saying, Like,

648
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: I feel like that's where this is gonna be weaponized

649
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: eventually for true yeah, for true psychological terror ops for yeah.

650
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: But guy, like, so, how do you sort of see

651
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: it evolveing? Because, like I think, from our perspective right now,

652
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: is we see it coming from like like an employer

653
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: class that goes like, this is the future of work.

654
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: You know. That's how Meta was sort of sort of

655
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: centering the metaverse in the beginning, was like this is

656
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: going to replace how you meet and how teams interact

657
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: and things like that, And most workers were like, no,

658
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,959
Speaker 1: that's that sounds like added It's sort of like added

659
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: intensity or a level of connection that isn't necessary given

660
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: that we're able to work together online. But how do

661
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: you sort of see this evolution happening where they like

662
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: we're like, yeah, I guess what. Everybody's got one of

663
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: these now, So you know, I thought this was heading

664
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: this way. I was actually if you'd ask me, you know,

665
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: six months ago, a year ago, I was sure this

666
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 1: together with smart cities were connected everywhere and I phone

667
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: is used for everything, is where we're headed. So I

668
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: am surprised, and I'm always wondering if what happened here

669
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: is that people were somehow struck by the pandemic because

670
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: they sort of felt you know, there were lockdowns, they

671
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: were at home, they felt what it means to be

672
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: on the screen all the time not seeing people. They

673
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: felt how their bodies felt, they felt how their minds felt.

674
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: And maybe they're realizing more than before because when I

675
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: was speaking before the pandemic to people, it was mostly

676
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: parents who are a warried and something is shifted. So

677
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if that's I'm wondering if it's technological issues

678
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: or it's partly how people feel about it. And I

679
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 1: really really hope it's the latter. Hm. I feel like,

680
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, we are people and

681
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: we need human connection and our brains will explode if

682
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: we don't have that. You know, we have access to

683
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: all of these technologies. But at the same time, people

684
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: really wanted to just go to restaurants during the pandemic

685
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: and eat together. So yeah, and hear like human laughter,

686
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: and I remember so much how I longed to like

687
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: eat with a group of like, you know, like eat

688
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: off someone's plate, like let me try that, you know, yeah,

689
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,479
Speaker 1: to like get a hug from someone, you know, Oh man,

690
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: that early day and burst into tears. I was doing

691
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: like turnaway hugs from like my grandfather and stuff like

692
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: wearing all these ppe It was like, all right, you

693
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: gotta go, man, you're almost ninety, Yeah, mess around. But

694
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: again it's true, like and we'll get into this um

695
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: after the break we talk a little bit about your book, guy,

696
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: because I do feel like we are in this experience

697
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: as people where the technology is making our lives easier.

698
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: And for the record, everyone like we're all no one

699
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: hears like hates technology. But the thing that we're up

700
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: against now is like we're starting to see how it's

701
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: eroding at these like little things and increasing this feeling

702
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: of alienation, and yet we still are using it, like

703
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: we just can't quit it. And your book sort of

704
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 1: gets to the crux of that feeling. We'll talk about

705
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 1: that right after the break. We'll be right back. So,

706
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: you know, talking about your book Guya Unwired, you know,

707
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: basically gaining control over addictive technologies. It really struck me

708
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: just because again for many younger people, like the allure

709
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: of the smartphone isn't an obscure phenomenon. Like we talk

710
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: constantly about unplugging and the benefits it's had on our

711
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: own mental health, Like just anecdotally amongst ourselves, your book

712
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: address is sort of one of the main I feel

713
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 1: like cycles of emotions many of us have in relation

714
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: to using screens, where like we get motivated to use

715
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: the screen less and then we're like, oh, this feels great.

716
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: Then we are sucked right back in and we feel

717
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: like shit, and it feels like like we kind of

718
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: come down to like I don't know, it's wow, Like

719
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 1: I just lack the self control. It's sort of like

720
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: the final sort of sentiment people land on and like

721
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: grappling with technologies. As a new parent too, I'm just

722
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: again very aware about screen time and I also feel

723
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: that like there's a certain futility around it too with

724
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 1: a lot of parents or they're like, I don't know,

725
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: you know, sooner or later it's just going to be

726
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: normal for them, and maybe I'm trying to delay the inevitable.

727
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: But it also apps. I've seen how much it can help,

728
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: you know, put a kid at ease and allow somebody

729
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: to do something else where do you feel like parents

730
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: and people kind of fit into this mix where we're

731
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: like the world is spinning around us, and we're like,

732
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 1: am I bad? Or what is happening? Like is our

733
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: brains meant this? Or we up against something a little

734
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: bit more intense than we realized. I think we're an

735
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: interesting place right now because we have a lot of information.

736
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: We have lots of information from whistle lowers from the

737
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: tech companies telling us how tech companies are addicting us

738
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: to keep us online for longer. But still we keep

739
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: blaming ourselves. We keep thinking it's our fault and we

740
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 1: are unable to stop spending time online. We blame our kids,

741
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: we blame our families. The problem is that that's exactly

742
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 1: what the tech companies want us to do, and that's

743
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: why they're giving us all these tools to make us

744
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,919
Speaker 1: feel like we're in control. So once the evidence came

745
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 1: out that it's that they're trying to addict us, they

746
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: gave us these digital well being tools. You know, everybody

747
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: who has an iPhone has this screen time, so you

748
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: know how much time you are online, or you can

749
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: even limit the time on your apps, or you can

750
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 1: make your gray or they're warning you could put warnings

751
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 1: on Instagram and not to talk about parental controls, which

752
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: are getting more and more complicated. And but the thing

753
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: is these are just there so we all feel like

754
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: we're doing something, but they're not really there to make

755
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: us succeed because they do not really change the most

756
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: addictive features in our devices or in our apps. There

757
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: are just there, so we will think that it is

758
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: our fault, exactly like you were describing. And again, how

759
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: in this world right if we're pivoting from it's not

760
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: us because it's like, you know, you've likened it to

761
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: like the tobacco industry, where like they know they know it,

762
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 1: they know it bad for everybody, but then the gas

763
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: lighting starts and it's like I don't know about them.

764
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: I mean, we know what's going on, but we're not

765
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: going to actually cop to it. Do you see like

766
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: a similar evolution where on some level, I mean, because

767
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: I feel like if anything, like you're saying, like the

768
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: markets and capitalism a very good way of shielding themselves

769
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: from like having the profits go down, so they'll find

770
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: a way like you're saying, to be like no, no,

771
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: you actually have control. It's not the it's not the

772
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: other things that were just identified clear as day by

773
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: someone working on it. You have control. Now you know

774
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: what what what does that sort of battle look like.

775
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 1: I think we're fighting the battle in the wrong place.

776
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: Now we're finding fighting with ourselves, we're fighting with our families.

777
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: I think we have to shift to the public sphere.

778
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: And it is already happening. There's lots of action already

779
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: taking place. There are parents suing social media for addicting

780
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: their kids, causing mental harm, parents suing game manufacturers. There

781
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: are things happening. But I think people have to understand

782
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: it's not just flawyers, it's for everybody, because everybody can

783
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: shift what they're doing to the collective sphere. Parents can

784
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 1: go to schools. They have an influence about what schools

785
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: are doing. Schools on our exemising technology in the classroom

786
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: because that's the federal policy. Well this could be changed.

787
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: You can decide whether something is useful in the classroom,

788
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: certain technology is useful or not. You can decide whether

789
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: you want the kids to be on their cell phones

790
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: during recess instead of talking to each other. So that's

791
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: the spaces when you can change things, and you can

792
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: change normals. Something you're saying, you know, maybe it's already happening,

793
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: but the new norms evolving every day, which I'm making

794
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: it worse. I was in vacation with my kids and

795
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: there was a family in the pool and my son

796
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: was calling me to look at this. There were two girls,

797
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: I think nine and eleven, and their parents gave them

798
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: these plastic pads to put their iPhones inside so they

799
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 1: can use the iPhones in the pool instead of playing. Now,

800
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: you know, this is evolving trend, just like a few

801
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 1: years ago it started to evolve take the kids out

802
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,280
Speaker 1: with iPads to the restaurant. Now so many people about

803
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 1: doing it, So there are ways too. I think things

804
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: are going to change. I think they're going to be

805
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: lots of legal action and tech companies will be restricted

806
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:11,760
Speaker 1: in what they could do, but it will take some years.

807
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: So thinks people can do things as business owners. I

808
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 1: mean in New York City all the airports. If you

809
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: go to an airport, there are four iPads at every table.

810
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,439
Speaker 1: There is no way you can have a conversation there.

811
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: So this is architecture for overuse. You can change. If

812
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: you own a restaurant, you can change. You should don't

813
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: have to use iPads, you don't have to use QR codes,

814
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: so people will take out their phones the moment they

815
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: sit down. So I think there are a lots once

816
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: people are worth a lot of things they can do

817
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: until things will change, and I do believe they're already

818
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: starting to change. Have you heard of like the third

819
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: spaces concept or theory about how there needs to be

820
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: a place for people outside of like work and the home,

821
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: for them to like gather and to exchange information and

822
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: you know, basically develop culture. I think a lot of

823
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: people are saying that the phones are now teenagers and

824
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: kids third spaces because a lot of other third spaces

825
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 1: have become unsafe and unaccessible and inaccessible to them. For example,

826
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 1: my friend posted about how in New York when she

827
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: was growing up, it became illegal for kids under eighteen

828
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,879
Speaker 1: to go hang out at the mall. And apparently that's

829
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: a thing that's been happening a lot. Whereas when I

830
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: was growing up, that's where we would go and hang

831
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: out with our friends. We'd go to the mall, we'd

832
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: hang out and go to Jomba juice. You'd like, I'd

833
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: try not to leave the bookstore with too many purchases.

834
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: You know, like you you'd hang out, but now it's

835
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 1: considered like loitering or whatever. Like a lot of these

836
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: external places that are meant for cultural exchange and you know,

837
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: kids to grow up are becoming unavailable to them. And also, honestly,

838
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: with like mass shootings and all of that, people get

839
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 1: more scared of going out in public and it seems

840
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: to be safer to have them just like inside on

841
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: their phones, which it doesn't necessarily you know, there are

842
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 1: other risks with that. So I think it would be

843
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: I like how you highlighted it, that it's going to

844
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: be an effort on these places and these people who

845
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: are in charge of those areas, because it really does

846
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: require cooperation between them and between the companies that are

847
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: like forcing their technology on people. Yeah, and I think

848
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: a lot. Municipalities can do a lot because they can

849
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: create spaces for people to hang out and for kids

850
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: to walk to. If you have places to be together,

851
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 1: it's very different than if you go home after school

852
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: and sit in your bedroom with your phone. Because the

853
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: statistics at by shocking. I mean, kids are meeting I

854
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: think fifty percent less than they used to be in

855
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 1: the eighties and parting. I think thirty three percent less

856
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: then not getting together. So you can't by design create

857
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 1: spaces for people to get together. So I mean, if

858
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: you think about bars that having a cigarettes today, this

859
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 1: seems so implausible, you know, before it happened and things

860
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: look different now. Can you think about a bar without

861
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 1: every person having their phone next to them? Yeah, it's

862
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: it's it feels like in a way, like it's almost

863
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: futile to try and reverse things, like in a way

864
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 1: because like, for example, one of the last concerts I

865
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 1: went to, like amazing show and there are people experiencing

866
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: the concert through their cell phone, like so much like

867
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: watching you such a pet peeve of mine. I saw

868
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: Tom Petty in in person and I was in like

869
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: the first or second row, and this girl next to

870
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: me literally was on her phone and she was like,

871
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is such a great song to

872
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: delete pictures too, And I was like Tom Petty is

873
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: on stage right now, right, or that we've lost the

874
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: bit like even like with the example of people like

875
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: in a pool, right, like that swimming isn't enough on

876
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: some level, that like the just being able to play

877
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: in the water is not like stimulating enough that we're

878
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: now adding like well, what if we augmented that with

879
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: some like audio visual stuff too that I'm like, because again,

880
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 1: I think this is what feels difficult for people, like

881
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: even myself. I was. I remember when I got my

882
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: last vaccination, I forgot my phone in the car, and

883
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: then when you go in there, you gotta wait like

884
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: twenty minutes after like for them just to chill out.

885
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: And I was like, first, I was panicked because I'm like,

886
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 1: I haven't had to wait without my phone in ages,

887
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: and I there was a moment of sincere like fear,

888
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: not fear, but like I was, I became uneasy and

889
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: I didn't like that. I felt so disarmed to just

890
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 1: exist in a space without a fucking screen to look at.

891
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: And it was funny because I sat down in the

892
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: chair like in the you know, pain relief medicine aisle,

893
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: and I was just doing I felt like a kid again.

894
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: It was like, I'm like reading all the labels. No,

895
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I'm gonna read all the labels. Yeah,

896
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: that's I go. If I got twenty minutes to kill,

897
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start reading labels and just start being in

898
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 1: my own thoughts again. And it was interesting how foreign

899
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: that felt to me even though I was you know,

900
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: I was born in the eighties, like I'm older millennial.

901
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 1: I grew up in the pre internet time too, which

902
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: felt like the most Like all humans are probably wired

903
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: to want to do this and connect to other people,

904
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: but we've definitely it's become so normal that to the

905
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: point where feeling human feels foreign, And that's what's really

906
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 1: scary to me. Well, I don't think we get to

907
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 1: go back in time, but I think we can balance

908
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: things better. Imagine if you went to concert and the

909
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: concert whole said no phones, so nobody could take off

910
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 1: their phones to take pictures. Maybe the phones will be

911
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: in their bags. That is changing the norms in a

912
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 1: way it could be done, and that things will affect everybody.

913
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: But I guess, like in there, right, there's an argument

914
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: to say, like, well, if someone actually needed to contact

915
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: me during it, then that would be like why would

916
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 1: how would like how do you find a way that

917
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: makes it so it's not just sort of like across

918
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: the board no phones, but we're able to, Like I

919
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: guess that's the hard part of Like there are phones

920
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 1: for taking no pluonts for taking pictures of the show.

921
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:19,760
Speaker 1: You can do so with you. But yeah, that's museums.

922
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: They do that too. Like I tried to take a

923
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,720
Speaker 1: picture of a painting recently into like no no, no. Yeah,

924
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: but it's also like that painting is gonna be online.

925
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: Nobody's gonna take you. Like I don't need to take

926
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 1: a picture of that painting. Yeah. One thing that helped

927
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: me is like literally spending more time with people and

928
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: like making an effort to do that, to like leave

929
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 1: my home and go spend time with people. I'm trying

930
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: to do that like once a day because I work remotely.

931
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: And then the other thing is like I have dogs

932
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: and when I walk them, one of them's a little

933
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: monster and he will try to eat stuff, and so

934
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: I have to like pay attention. And now I'm like

935
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 1: I know where all the good sticks are, you know,

936
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: I know where all the great grasses. I'm like going

937
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: back to when I was a kid and I was

938
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: just outside playing with my dogs, and it's so nice

939
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: to take a walk outside when it's sunny here, lay

940
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: and be with my pets, you know, and talk to

941
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 1: people who have pets and connect with them that way.

942
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: You know. So having things and people around you that

943
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: take you out of your head and like give you

944
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: an external like rounding two. Community is so important. That's

945
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: why I love like mutual aid and like physical activities

946
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: that like help with community things, because that really nourishes

947
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: a part of you that cannot be nurished in the

948
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 1: same way through a screen. Yeah, I've like in the

949
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 1: same way, like walking around my neighborhood and doing the

950
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: unthinkable of talking to a stranger has been the one

951
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 1: thing that I've felt really balances things out because there

952
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: was I saw a recent study that like the people

953
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: have a sincere fear of small talk falling apart, and

954
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 1: like they like people just have an eight sense, like

955
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,720
Speaker 1: that if people begin small talk and the conversation goes south,

956
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: that it's suddenly on them, and like people get their

957
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: own anxiety of not being able to like keep up

958
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: small talk, which is wild because and sometimes you're just

959
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: exchanging pleasantries and it doesn't have to be more than that.

960
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: But I feel like there's like these certain small things

961
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 1: you can be doing, but at the same time we're

962
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: developing like also bad habits around how we communicate to

963
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: It's also crazy because everybody has a podcast, so how

964
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: are they scared us? All? Yes, all right, guy interrupted,

965
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 1: I'm saying it's also bad for people's well being, because

966
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: there are studies which are showing that people's happiness it's

967
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 1: not just about a long term relationship, but also about

968
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: these most small interactions exactly the small talk, this eye

969
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: contact and a smile that really changed the way your

970
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: brain works and makes you feel much better. And if

971
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 1: you're not doing that, and if you're just walking in

972
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:50,280
Speaker 1: a street with your phone, looking at your pictures, answering text,

973
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 1: and you're missing all these opportunities which somehow just makes

974
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: you feel drained and tired and not good at the

975
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: end of the day. Just when it comes to policy,

976
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a difficult path ahead, you know.

977
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: I mean, like we saw how seriously they took privacy

978
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 1: in Europe. The US is a little bit behind, a

979
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 1: lot behind. It's like say, for maybe like California and

980
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: a couple other places, but like in just in the

981
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: recent hearing on TikTok, it's so clear, at least in

982
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: that the narrow context of that hearing, like they just

983
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 1: weren't even able or willing to discuss the broader problems

984
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 1: with social media, and it became sort of this like

985
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: very TikTok specific thing. While we've seen to your point,

986
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,720
Speaker 1: whistleblowers at like Facebook, etc. Say like these are real issues,

987
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 1: they've had hearings, but then we're not quite seeing the

988
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,320
Speaker 1: follow through. What you know, what kind of like policy

989
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: proposals are out there, do you think are would actually

990
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: benefit people in a way that sort of gets to

991
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: the heart of you know, like our overuse of technology,

992
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,320
Speaker 1: obviously knowing the parts that it's helped make things easier

993
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 1: for us, but also addressing like the bigger issues of

994
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:05,280
Speaker 1: you know, feeling increasingly isolated and things like that. Yeah,

995
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 1: so I think first of all, the issue with TikTok

996
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: is complicated because it just brings out completely different issues

997
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 1: related to China, and it just it's sort of marking

998
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: the whole debate. Yeah, but there have been a lot

999
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: of bills both further all in state trying to get

1000
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,919
Speaker 1: first of all, the addictive features of the phones, because

1001
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: there's some features on our phones which are really up

1002
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: to no good. What are those from the flashlight? The

1003
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: flashlight is useful, but you know, for example, streaks on Snapchat. Yeah,

1004
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: there are there for nothing but to get you to

1005
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: go back to the platform. So kids have to set kids.

1006
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 1: I don't think many adults use it, but you know,

1007
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,399
Speaker 1: they have to send a streak to their friend and

1008
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: if they get one within twenty four hours, they've established

1009
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 1: a street and they keep accummolating them and then they

1010
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:04,879
Speaker 1: have a number, let's one, one hundred and thirty four.

1011
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: They have special badges and they have older friends onto

1012
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: the number of streaks. Now, there's no requirement for any

1013
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 1: content in these streaks. You just have to make sure

1014
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: you send it. Why because you go to snapcheck and

1015
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:21,439
Speaker 1: you see the ads and if the kids miss a day,

1016
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:26,280
Speaker 1: they lose everything and they lose all their friends. And

1017
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 1: that's why they get so upset when the parents take

1018
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 1: away the phone, because they for them it's a huge thing.

1019
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 1: So all these kinds of features like Snapstreak, you have

1020
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: just there to make it go back to the app

1021
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:45,280
Speaker 1: with a device, are not needed, and there are builds

1022
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: which are trying to outlaw these kinds of features. Of course,

1023
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,800
Speaker 1: the problem is they'll always come with new ones. Because

1024
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 1: the whole business model is based on our time and

1025
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: our data. They need us to be there for as

1026
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: long as possible so they can collect more data on us,

1027
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 1: so they can target advertising at us, and again we

1028
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: have to be there for longer so we can see

1029
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 1: the ads. So that's why I think it's not just

1030
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: one thing, not just one law, not just one wonderful

1031
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 1: Supreme Court case. It's not going to happen like that.

1032
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: It's going to happen from a mixture of things that

1033
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: are going to happen, Like if you have the antitrust

1034
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 1: lasses against big tech, that if, for example, the merger

1035
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: between them, the right now matter owns Facebook owns WhatsApp

1036
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: owns the Instagram. If they're broken up and there's more morenivation,

1037
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: more competition, we might see the different business model which

1038
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: are not based on our time. So so that's another

1039
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: thing that's happening. I think, as I said earlier, I

1040
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 1: think the policy about maximize the technology in the school

1041
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: has to change because if Minecraft is homework, then how

1042
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: can you prevent your kid from play Minecraft at home?

1043
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: There are so there are a lot and then there's

1044
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: class actions and if you look back, it's cigarettes. You know,

1045
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,319
Speaker 1: we know cigarettes are bad, but it took decades to

1046
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: change things. It took class actions, and it took advertising,

1047
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: and it took warnings and and this is this is

1048
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 1: going to be the same. It will take a lot

1049
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 1: of things at the same time. For example, let's say

1050
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: we have ratings for addictiveness. You know, so many parents

1051
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: download games for the kids, thinking oh, Minecraft is an

1052
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: educational game. If they could see before they download, this

1053
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: is high rating for addictiveness, they may not do that.

1054
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: But not only that, the game's company may change the

1055
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 1: game because they want people to download the game, so

1056
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,359
Speaker 1: they might take the addictive features out by themselves. So

1057
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: it's a matter of pressuring from many directions to move

1058
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 1: things right. And like when you talk about cigarettes, I know,

1059
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: like the earlier ideas or like maybe in like the

1060
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: fifties where they knew where do you think we are,

1061
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,839
Speaker 1: Like if the first studies come out there, Oh it's bad.

1062
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 1: Are we close to like the truth dot com era

1063
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 1: of like anti smoking ads? Or are we like a

1064
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: decade away? How I mean? I guess now everything is

1065
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: moving faster. So maybe what took you know, decades before,

1066
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: it might take seven years. I don't know. Well, I

1067
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 1: think what change would cigarettes? Yeah, you're right, the first

1068
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: studies came out in the fifties. Nineteen sixty four, the

1069
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 1: Certain General announces the Health Hazards It's amazing. It took

1070
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 1: so long considering how bad cigarettes are, right, but from

1071
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 1: then on we saw you know, advertising, we saw one.

1072
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 1: Things took a while, but they started shifting. Our problem

1073
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: is right now we are still in the science wars.

1074
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: We do not have you know, a big of metal

1075
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 1: organizations saying this is bad, especially for children. With the

1076
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:57,240
Speaker 1: evidence is in, we just have partial recommendations for small

1077
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: kids about screens. I think we have so much data

1078
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 1: over the last two or three years. But I think

1079
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: we're at a place where medical organizations, governmental entities can

1080
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: make these proclamations and from that moment on polity and

1081
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: proceed faster. And we already have a lot of action

1082
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: in place, so I hope that, yeah, things will move faster.

1083
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 1: And with cigarettes, I think it will take some years.

1084
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: And that's why I think it's so important what people

1085
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 1: do in their communities, how they change their business norms,

1086
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: how they change their schools, because things have to happen

1087
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 1: at the same time. Otherwise it affects all of us

1088
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: not to mention a whole generation of kids already in

1089
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,959
Speaker 1: front of screens for a decade plus a pandemic. Right.

1090
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you were talking about this now because

1091
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: ten years ago, when I was in a little bit

1092
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: more than ten years when I was in college, people

1093
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: were failing out of a very great college for Minecraft.

1094
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: Like it was a joke about how many students would

1095
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: fail because of their addiction to Minecraft specifically. So it's

1096
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 1: interesting that you use that and that they haven't really

1097
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,919
Speaker 1: changed much. It seems like in the last you know, decade, Yeah,

1098
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: why change It's a winning formula. And what do you

1099
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 1: kind of say, because I like to you know, people

1100
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: that are frustrated, parents that are frustrated, who are like,

1101
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: am I fucking up? Like? Am I bad? Because would

1102
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: you say to Miles, my kid is too young although

1103
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 1: he loves the sopranos, I'm gonna say that whenever he

1104
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: turns his head, I'm like, I don't almost be the

1105
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 1: lights or the mom But like, what do you what

1106
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: I mean? Because I think again, there is this feeling

1107
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: of like it feels so personal that too when you

1108
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 1: talk to other parents about scream time, like, hey, what

1109
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: the fuck do you want me to do? Man? Like,

1110
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: it's I got a lot going on? This is this,

1111
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 1: this works? And I get that there is this internal

1112
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 1: sense of like responsibility. But then feeling helpless because there

1113
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 1: is like a what am I going to do a thing?

1114
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 1: What do you say to people who are sort of

1115
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 1: like in that mental space and like how to sort

1116
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: of emerge from that or at least to begin to

1117
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: look at the situation with a little more like context.

1118
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: So I'll start with you, Miles, since you have a

1119
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 1: very small baby, so I think for you it's easy

1120
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 1: because you can just decide not to give your baby screen.

1121
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 1: The studies are in the smaller child where the baby

1122
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 1: is the worst it is, and you have control. So

1123
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 1: and I think people have a lot of control all

1124
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:29,479
Speaker 1: the way through a lamentary school that so I think

1125
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: parents can really limit kids screen time. The issue becomes

1126
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 1: when they get to middle school because social life is

1127
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 1: in social networks and you can't really eyes it at

1128
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: your child, and that's when it becomes a problem. And

1129
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 1: you can do things in the meantime. You can model.

1130
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 1: I mean I try when I'm home and all my

1131
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 1: kids are here, so I don't have to worry. I

1132
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: try to put the phones somewhere away from me, and

1133
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 1: so you can do things, and you can do small

1134
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 1: things for yourself. You know, again, when I work, because

1135
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 1: I am as I mentioned I'm as addicted as all

1136
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: of us despite everything I know. I always put my

1137
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: phone on twenty minutes a timer and I write for

1138
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 1: twenty minutes, and then I check my emails and I

1139
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: do this again. There are things you can do, and

1140
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: you can also kids remember the pandemic. They remember how

1141
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: they felt, so you can talk to your mind them

1142
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 1: how they felt horrible at that time and how they

1143
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: felt much better when they saw people, so you can

1144
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 1: make a difference. You cannot force an older kid not

1145
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 1: to do that. It's not going to work. I mean.

1146
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 1: And also that's smarter than us with technology, they'll always

1147
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:41,439
Speaker 1: beat us. It's not going to happen. So I think

1148
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 1: it's a combination of doing what you can and while

1149
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 1: also realizing this the broader situation too, by not blaming yourself.

1150
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 1: It's the most important thing because that that is the

1151
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 1: problem now that people are sitting there and thinking it's

1152
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 1: all their fault. Right. Yeah, we're like in the plastic

1153
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 1: straws debate where we're like, actually, what about No, it

1154
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 1: can't be down to my level. What about the companies

1155
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: that are actually the ones that are steering all of this?

1156
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 1: And I think that is an important thing to sort

1157
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: of resenter, like in the in the conversation, I have

1158
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 1: a couple of comments to make on that I do

1159
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 1: think that like watching kids, because I tootor a lot

1160
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 1: of kids and like watching them. I feel like overall,

1161
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 1: with technology, just like with life, like you, you really

1162
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: do have to raise them the way that you think

1163
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 1: you should raise them, and then try to be as

1164
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 1: involved as you can without being overbearing and allow them

1165
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 1: to like make their mistakes, and then you kind of

1166
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 1: have to hope that like those values that you passed

1167
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 1: on to them guide their use of technology as well,

1168
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 1: and that they come to you when they're scared or

1169
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 1: they like need help with something. It seems like to me,

1170
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a parent to dogs, so I don't

1171
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 1: have to worry about this. But we did watch the

1172
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 1: Public Bowl and they were addicted. But also the other

1173
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: thing is you're talking about how you don't have to

1174
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: worry about it with smaller children, But FaceTime is how

1175
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 1: I stay connected with my nephew, And I know plenty

1176
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 1: of people that purposefully like FaceTime family members like they're

1177
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 1: infant children, just so that they hear the voice, they

1178
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 1: see the face. Then they start associating that face with

1179
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: the screen, you know, with the good feelings with the screen.

1180
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 1: But that's the only way, like I can keep in

1181
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 1: touch with him because he's it's such a long distance

1182
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 1: and I know that's slightly different than games and stuff,

1183
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 1: but I also want to worry about that, you know.

1184
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: I think it's a great example because it's important to

1185
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 1: also remember that not or screen is made alike. I think,

1186
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 1: you know, connecting with people over FaceTime is a great thing,

1187
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 1: especially relatives who live away. You know, being able to

1188
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: read the New Times or any news is different. The

1189
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 1: problem becomes when you're selling things as educational games and

1190
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 1: people are playing them and they get all these dopamine

1191
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 1: bursts from playing, or social networks you get the dopamine

1192
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: burst from the comments and the likes. So there's a

1193
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 1: big difference between games and social networks or or YouTube

1194
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: where the one short video you know, hands and the

1195
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 1: next one stalls and and talking to Grandma on FaceTime. Yeah, okay,

1196
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 1: that makes me feel better, thank you. Yeah, it's I mean,

1197
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 1: it's but I mean, these are all things, like like

1198
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 1: you said, like Paula, be like you have concerns, Like

1199
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,440
Speaker 1: I was, like talking to my dad on FaceTime who

1200
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 1: was like not able to see my son and for

1201
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 1: you and you, I mean he's not really able, like

1202
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 1: he can't my son can't see na where he's like

1203
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 1: associated all this too, but to your point, like how

1204
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 1: the beginnings of your relationship to the screen begins, and

1205
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 1: and and guy, you also mentioned this too, like like

1206
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: not using the phone in front of the kids too,

1207
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 1: because I've seen my other friends do that where they're

1208
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:50,160
Speaker 1: trying to say like I don't want my kid to

1209
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 1: think that when you're not doing something, you look at

1210
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: your phone or that that's that's what is normal, Like

1211
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 1: you can be active, or you can do other things,

1212
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: or you can like read a physical book. But some

1213
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 1: I've heard people say like I don't want my kids

1214
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 1: like early memories of like me being like I'm looking

1215
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 1: down at this like glowing rectangle and baby, ye see

1216
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 1: that that just like sort of the most normal thing. Obviously,

1217
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 1: you know, we have to use our phones. But I

1218
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 1: get that they're like it's it's all very subtle and

1219
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 1: how like kids begin to like see what's normal or

1220
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 1: not normal? Yeah, and I think you know that. Yeah,

1221
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 1: the studies show that parents who are having users their

1222
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 1: kids also, have you used the phone. On the other hand,

1223
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 1: it's hard. You know you're there, but you're using a

1224
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 1: phone because you're texting your babysitters and you can't find

1225
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 1: a babysitt and you're texting another. So it's it's not Sally,

1226
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 1: it's not. There's no perfect solution. We're not living in

1227
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 1: a perfect world for this, so we can just try

1228
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: our best, but it's not. There's no easy way out

1229
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 1: right now right, I think that sums up so many

1230
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:55,840
Speaker 1: of what we're experiencing in this present moment. Can I

1231
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 1: just say something that might help this story come full circle? Yes? Um,

1232
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:03,040
Speaker 1: I just an article that said Pablo Xavier, a thirty

1233
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 1: one year old construction worker from the Chicago area, said

1234
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 1: he was tripping on shrooms last week when he came

1235
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 1: up with the idea for Pope Francis his puffy jacket image.

1236
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 1: So he was out in the world something drugs, yes,

1237
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 1: experiencing community and nature and stuff when he came up

1238
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 1: with the things that'll do to your brain. You know,

1239
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: just yeah, small talk with people. But again, I think yeah,

1240
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 1: important that if we understand that it's like this very

1241
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 1: complex issue where it's such a double edged sword where

1242
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 1: it's given us things like being able to connect with

1243
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 1: people when we need to and in ways that are

1244
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 1: much better than just like talking over the phone or

1245
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 1: writing something. But at the same time there's also this

1246
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 1: like commodified monetized, you know, use of technology that is

1247
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:53,160
Speaker 1: purely built on extracting as much eyeball time from you

1248
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:55,960
Speaker 1: as possible, and you know, not reckoning with that is

1249
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 1: creating a bit of a slippery slope. But that's why

1250
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 1: I thank you so much, Professor Guy burn Scene for

1251
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: stopping by the daily sitegeist. Where can people find you

1252
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 1: and your work and read more from you if they

1253
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:11,479
Speaker 1: would like to? So my website is guy burns seem

1254
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 1: dot com and my book is available on Amazon Bars

1255
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:19,240
Speaker 1: and I will every every place you would normally purchase

1256
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 1: your book. And thank you so much for having me.

1257
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, you classed up the joint with

1258
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:29,320
Speaker 1: your apies. And is there any work of social media

1259
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,040
Speaker 1: or anything that you would like to point to that

1260
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: you were enjoying If not, it's all it's I get it.

1261
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 1: We're trying to get enjoying you not the right world.

1262
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 1: But I've been looking at Israeli and there's been lots

1263
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 1: going on the protest, and my best friends sent me

1264
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 1: a video of herr and thousands of women dressed as

1265
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 1: the Handmaid's Tail costume because there's a big constitutional reform

1266
01:06:55,160 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 1: attempt which also undermine the rights of women LGBTQ people.

1267
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 1: So I look at this video a lot, and I'm

1268
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:07,040
Speaker 1: happy to be able to see this video even though

1269
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 1: I was not there, and I still wish I was

1270
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 1: there with everybody. Yeah, it shows you what what a

1271
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 1: general strike can do too, because I believe Netanyahu said

1272
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 1: he's going to delay that plan as a result of that. Hey,

1273
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: collectivism works, you know, general strikes, Trium out America and Polavie.

1274
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me today. Where can

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01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 1: people find you and follow you? See you all that?

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01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 1: And what's a tweet that you like? I'm at Pola

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01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:37,440
Speaker 1: Viganalan everywhere. Good luck spelling that. I'm tired of spelling

1278
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 1: it out. I've been doing a lot of stand up lately,

1279
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 1: so come see me perform because I don't want to,

1280
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 1: as a content creator, have to post to Instagram every

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01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 1: day so that real will pop off so I can

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01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 1: just be on stage surrounded by people. I don't like

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01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:52,640
Speaker 1: that either, that I get punished for not posting everything

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01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 1: all the time. I am. I'm so tired of it.

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01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:00,920
Speaker 1: My favorite tweet this have you seen banshees of any year? In? No,

1286
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:03,360
Speaker 1: it's on my list though, Oh my god, it is

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01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:06,959
Speaker 1: so good. Yeah. But it's about a friendship falling out.

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01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 1: And there was an image of the two main characters

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01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 1: you know in that from that movie, and then someone tweeted,

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01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:15,640
Speaker 1: I just don't want to do laundry and taxes with

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01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 1: you no more. It's a valium breaking up his friendship.

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01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 1: And then someone else quote tweeted that with nothing nowhere,

1293
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 1: never happening again, and I thought that was amazing. And

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01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 1: that was at Senna Cianna Dublin and at Runs with Skizzers.

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01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 1: All right. You can find me at Miles of Gray

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01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:40,200
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram. I've been I don't know anything.

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01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 1: What have I liked on? I haven't I'm not gonna,

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01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:44,599
Speaker 1: haven't looked on. Oh. I like all the messages people

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01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:47,760
Speaker 1: have sent me on Instagram welcoming back. That has been fantastic.

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01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:50,479
Speaker 1: I really appreciate all the listeners reaching out with your

1301
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 1: kind words and reminding me that I will know how

1302
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:57,760
Speaker 1: to say foot notes when the time does come. You

1303
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 1: can also find Jack and own our basketball Poe cast

1304
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:02,760
Speaker 1: Miles and Jack got Matt boosties. Also, I'm on four

1305
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:05,920
Speaker 1: twenty Day Fiance We'll be coming back soon where Sophia,

1306
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 1: Alexander and I talk about our favorite reality show, ninety

1307
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 1: Day Beyonce. You can find us at Daily z et

1308
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: Geist on Twitter, at the Daily ze Geist on Instagram,

1309
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 1: got a Facebook fan page and website Daily zat geys

1310
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:19,439
Speaker 1: dot com. We're posted episodes on our footnotes probably one

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01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 1: time footnote footnotes thank you, where you can find leading

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01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 1: all the articles that we talked about, as well as

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01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 1: the song we are going to ride out on. What

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01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:32,479
Speaker 1: song is that? Oh well, thank you for asking. Today.

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01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 1: We are going to go out on this track called

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01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:39,560
Speaker 1: Grateful by El Michael's Affair with Black Doought rapping over it.

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01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:41,680
Speaker 1: El Michael's Affair is a great band. I love all

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01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 1: their instrument of music. Black Dot is the goat you

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01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 1: know when he starts rhyming. This track is really dope,

1320
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,160
Speaker 1: is heavy. If you like Black Doot, you're gonna like this.

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01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 1: If you like hip hop, you've got to check this out.

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01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 1: And even if you don't, it's a good track. It's

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01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:57,200
Speaker 1: called Grateful, which we are for sure. Oh Michael's affair

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01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:59,839
Speaker 1: in Black thought, that's gonna do it for us today.

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01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 1: We're gonna be back later with to tell you what's trending,

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01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 1: and then tomorrow with a whole new episode. So until then,

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01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:07,640
Speaker 1: just you know. This is a production of iHeartRadio. So

1328
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:09,840
Speaker 1: for more podcasts, check out the iHeartRadio app for app

1329
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:11,600
Speaker 1: podcast wherever you get them. All right, talk to you

1330
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 1: then bye.