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Speaker 1: A quick note to our listeners, this episode contains discussions

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Speaker 1: of abuse and sexual assault. At times, the details are

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Speaker 1: graphic and they're hard to listen to, but the story

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Speaker 1: it's an important one to hear. He was a progressive,

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Speaker 1: liberal hero. He was also seen publicly as a champion

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Speaker 1: of women. So what was especially hypocritical and shocking and

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Speaker 1: gas lighting was the behavior that he sought to legislate against,

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Speaker 1: was the type of behavior that he inflicted on his

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Speaker 1: partners in private. And because he was a very powerful politician,

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Speaker 1: he was the top law enforcement officer in the state

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Speaker 1: of New York, and he was in the national spotlight

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Speaker 1: at the time that I was with him. Who knew

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Speaker 1: what he would do if I told others about what

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Speaker 1: I was experiencing. But this is why I feel like

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Speaker 1: somehow the universe intended for me to have my path

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Speaker 1: intersect with Eric Schneiderman and then end a pattern of

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Speaker 1: violence with his intimate partners that had been going on

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Speaker 1: for a very long time with many people knowing about it.

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Speaker 1: In The New Yorker published a story that would take

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Speaker 1: down one of the most powerful men in New York.

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Speaker 1: The man was Eric Schneiderman. At the time he was

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Speaker 1: the state's attorney general, someone who stood up to Trump

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Speaker 1: and for women's rights, or so we thought. What many

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Speaker 1: didn't know was that behind closed doors he allegedly did

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Speaker 1: the opposite verbally, emotionally, and physically. He allegedly abused multiple women,

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Speaker 1: women that on the surface it would appear he loved.

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Speaker 1: One of those women was Tanya Silveratnum. She met Schneiderman

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Speaker 1: at the Democratic National Convention in and was instantly charmed,

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Speaker 1: but very quickly, she says, the relationship began to shift.

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Speaker 1: I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor, NBC News Senior correspondent, and

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Speaker 1: This is Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think and

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Tanya says that she got caught in

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Speaker 1: a situation that too many women find themselves in. Strong, smart,

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Speaker 1: successful women drawn to successful men, and then suddenly trapped,

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Speaker 1: unable to escape. So what pushed her to get out

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Speaker 1: of this relationship and share her story with the world.

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Speaker 1: She writes about that in her new book, Assume Nothing.

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Speaker 1: Tanya is here today to share her story and for that,

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Speaker 1: I'm grateful, Tanya. Thank you, Thank you, Stephanie. If you

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Speaker 1: can sort of take us back, tell us about your experience.

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Speaker 1: How this relationship even began. It started beautifully when he

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Speaker 1: first came up to me and started asking questions. It

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Speaker 1: turned out that we had both gone to Harvard, we

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Speaker 1: both had studied Chinese, we both had spent time in China.

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Speaker 1: We were also both interested in spirituality and meditation. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was a nerdy flirtation, but also the fact that

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Speaker 1: he was a politician who meditated was intriguing to me.

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Speaker 1: And then it started just as a normal dating relationship.

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Speaker 1: We met in two thousand sixteen at the Democratic National Convention.

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Speaker 1: When he first approached me, it felt too good to

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Speaker 1: be true. He was so adoring and complimentary and supportive,

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Speaker 1: and it started like a fairy tale. But then the

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Speaker 1: darkness started to seep in as time went by, the

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Speaker 1: controlling behavior isolating me, the abusive language, the criticism, and

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Speaker 1: then the physical violence started to emerge in the sexual context.

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Speaker 1: And so when the abuse started emerging, yes, I was

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Speaker 1: living with him. And because of the turbulent times after

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Speaker 1: the election, after the former president took office, Eric Schneiderman

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Speaker 1: became the leader of the Democratic attorneys generals around the

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Speaker 1: country who were standing up to Trump. The national spotlight

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Speaker 1: was on Eric Schneiderman more than ever before, and at

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Speaker 1: the time that it was happening, I thought the abuse

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Speaker 1: was specific to me, as so many victims do. But

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Speaker 1: then I realized, through word of mouth and through friends,

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Speaker 1: that I was not the first, and I realized that

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't be the last. I am so grateful that

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Speaker 1: you wrote this book, that you're telling this story. You

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Speaker 1: said that at first, domestic violence didn't look like what

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Speaker 1: you expected it to explain that when it first happened,

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Speaker 1: it happened in the blink of an eye. It happens

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Speaker 1: at night, when it's dark, when you're naked. But then

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Speaker 1: over time the slaps became harder, and the abusive language

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Speaker 1: in the sexual context also became more dark, the slave terminology,

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Speaker 1: criticizing my skin, my scars. I have scars that run

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Speaker 1: up and down my torso from surgery. I began to

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Speaker 1: feel like I was in hell. But it was still

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Speaker 1: at that time hard for me to know how to

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Speaker 1: navigate it. I never thought that I would be one

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Speaker 1: of those women who got caught up in an abusive relationship.

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Speaker 1: I had never been in one before. As a child,

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Speaker 1: I grew up witnessing horrific domestic violence, and I stood

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Speaker 1: up to my own father. The domestic violence that I

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Speaker 1: experienced as an adult looked different. He would slap me hard,

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Speaker 1: he would try to choke me, and it happened only

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Speaker 1: during the sexual context, the physical violence. But the common

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Speaker 1: threat between what I witnessed as a child and as

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Speaker 1: an adult was the course of control, was the making

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Speaker 1: me always feel like I was less than. But part

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Speaker 1: of why you stay is that there's the yo yo

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Speaker 1: effect where sometimes you're made to feel like you are

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Speaker 1: making mistakes all the time. Other times you're made to

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Speaker 1: feel like you are the greatest thing that has happened

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Speaker 1: to your abusive partner. It takes a series of steps

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Speaker 1: to break even fear swimming down, and it happens with

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Speaker 1: that entrapment in isolation and the gas lighting and the

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Speaker 1: coercive control that by the time the physical violence emerges,

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Speaker 1: it's like you're not yourself. And when I started to

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Speaker 1: open up to friends and two experts, I realized that

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Speaker 1: what I went through was an experience that millions of

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Speaker 1: women and men share, and that I should not be ashamed.

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Speaker 1: People often don't understand the idea of being trapped, especially

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Speaker 1: when it's someone who on their own is successful? Is

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Speaker 1: educated you right in the book that you want to

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Speaker 1: shift the perception of what a victim looks like. So

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Speaker 1: what does the victim look like? Victim looks like all

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Speaker 1: of us. And the more that victims and survivors and

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Speaker 1: thrivers share their stories, the more we can chip away

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Speaker 1: at the conditioning that normalizes the cycle of violence that

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Speaker 1: we are forced to accept from the time that we

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Speaker 1: are born. You know, we are conditioned to think that

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Speaker 1: if a boy teases us in the playground, that he

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Speaker 1: likes us, and that's wrong. So the book kind of

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Speaker 1: reconditions our notions of masculinity. And I really hope that

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Speaker 1: men read the book. You know, the narrative, the thriller

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Speaker 1: draws the reader in and then the appendix provides the

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Speaker 1: reader with resources to stop and spot and prevent intimate

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Speaker 1: partner violence. In you telling this story, you're reliving your trauma. Right,

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Speaker 1: many times we're told you experience something traumatic and you

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Speaker 1: move on. And it was Alexandria Occacio Cortes and talking

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Speaker 1: about the January six attack, saying, someone who's a victim

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Speaker 1: faces that trauma over and over. You're putting yourself in

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Speaker 1: a position where you're facing that trauma every day that

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Speaker 1: you work on writing this book, that you talk about it,

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Speaker 1: how hard is that? Writing the book was painful and emotional,

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Speaker 1: and I was so grateful when Alexandria Calcio Cortes shared

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Speaker 1: her story of assault. It resonated for millions of people.

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Speaker 1: We have to chip away at the patriarchy and white supremacy,

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Speaker 1: which is very much intertwined with why violence is so normalized.

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Speaker 1: But even though the writing was painful, ultimately it's full

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Speaker 1: of hope because I do feel like by sharing our stories,

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Speaker 1: we begin to open doors that didn't exist before for

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Speaker 1: us to heal. When you knew you wanted to get

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Speaker 1: out of this relationship, how did you start making those motions.

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Speaker 1: It's hard when you are in an abusive relationship to

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Speaker 1: see a way out, and in my case, it was

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Speaker 1: especially hard to see a way out because I was

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Speaker 1: with a very powerful man. But I vividly remember the

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Speaker 1: conversation I had with a friend when I told her

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Speaker 1: that things were not going so well and she just

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Speaker 1: started asking questions. And I feel like that's something that

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Speaker 1: everyone can do if they suspect that a friend or

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Speaker 1: loved one is in an abusive RelA sationship is asked

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Speaker 1: questions that elicit answers, so the more questions she asked

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Speaker 1: led to more answers. And then she asked, does he

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Speaker 1: hit you? How hard was it for you to answer that?

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Speaker 1: Because once you said yes, you couldn't take it back. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and that was the first time I couldn't take it back.

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Speaker 1: She is like my sister, one of my closest friends.

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Speaker 1: Because she asked me a question, I was not going

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Speaker 1: to lie to her. I did not plan to tell

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Speaker 1: her that he hit me. I just planned to tell

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Speaker 1: her that I was going through a hard time. But

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Speaker 1: because she asked me the question and I answered yes,

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Speaker 1: I just said yes, and she said mm hmm, and

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Speaker 1: she said, tany, I want you to talk to somebody,

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Speaker 1: and she connected me with a domestic violence expert. And

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Speaker 1: after speaking with that domestic violence expert, there was no

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Speaker 1: going back. She said, I just couldn't ever see him

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Speaker 1: or be with him again. And I felt fortunate that

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Speaker 1: I had a great support network and I had work,

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Speaker 1: and also I had my financial independence. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of reason why women stay in abusive relationships is

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Speaker 1: because they are financially dependent on the man. Whereas I

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Speaker 1: had friends who were telling me get out, leave drift,

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Speaker 1: don't think about him. And the domestic violence expert also

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Speaker 1: said to me, Tanya, you think that you're the only

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Speaker 1: one that has happened to and that the abuse was

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Speaker 1: specific to you because he customized it so well, the

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Speaker 1: way he criticized my scars, my hair, my breasts. She said,

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Speaker 1: you are probably part of a pattern. But then a

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Speaker 1: cosmic thing happened, which is, right after he and I

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Speaker 1: parted ways, the Harvey Weinstein story broke and the me

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Speaker 1: too movement began. We'll be back after the break. So then,

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Speaker 1: what did you do? Because I feel like you're taking

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Speaker 1: me down a path where over the course of a year,

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Speaker 1: you went from your weakest self to your strongest self.

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Speaker 1: What happened is I finally went and got my things

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Speaker 1: from his apartment, and I went with two friends. We

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Speaker 1: swooped up all my things and multiple garbage bags and suitcases.

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Speaker 1: One of the friends came back with me in a

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Speaker 1: car and she said to me, you can't be the

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Speaker 1: first person that he has done this too. And she's

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Speaker 1: an investigative reporter. Within twenty four hours, she discovered a

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Speaker 1: previous girlfriend who had been almost a decade before me,

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Speaker 1: who had an early similar story. It was in that

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Speaker 1: moment that I realized I was definitely part of a pattern.

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Speaker 1: The fact that I found out less than twenty four

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Speaker 1: hours after getting all my things from his place made

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Speaker 1: me shake, and my reporter friend, she said, I want

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Speaker 1: you to talk to a lawyer, and she connected me

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Speaker 1: with Robbie Kaplan, and we talked through various scenarios, a

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Speaker 1: civil suit, an ethics complaint. But I realized that because

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Speaker 1: in my situation, which was different from other situations with

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Speaker 1: perpetrators being outed, I was dealing with somebody who was

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Speaker 1: still in political power and who was the Attorney General

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Speaker 1: of New York State. So to enter the legal system

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Speaker 1: or law enforcement system where the person who I'm accusing

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Speaker 1: is in charge of that system, it felt like an

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Speaker 1: incredibly risky and dangerous move. You decided you were still

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Speaker 1: going to do something, even if you weren't going to

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Speaker 1: go to legal route. No charges were ever filed at

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Speaker 1: that point. You were determined to take action in some form.

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Speaker 1: I was determined to take action so that he couldn't

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Speaker 1: do to another woman what he did to me and

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Speaker 1: what he did to this previous girlfriend whom I discovered

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Speaker 1: and I had a very laser focused objective, which is

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Speaker 1: to warn other women and prevent him from harming other women.

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Speaker 1: In my particular instance, because of who my abuser was

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Speaker 1: and how long his pattern had been going on, and

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Speaker 1: how long it had been enabled by other people in power,

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Speaker 1: I felt that the court of public opinion was going

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Speaker 1: to be my best route for ending the cycle of

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Speaker 1: violence that he had been perpetrating for a long time.

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Speaker 1: On the day that Ronan Pharaoh's story broke about Harvey

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Speaker 1: Weinstein in The New Yorker, so this was subsequent to

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Speaker 1: the story that Megan Tuey and Jodi canterbroke in the

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Speaker 1: New York Times on that day. This was in early October.

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Speaker 1: Eric reached out to me by email, and I knew

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Speaker 1: in that moment, with great clarity, that he knew he

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Speaker 1: had done something very wrong. He was in the center

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Speaker 1: of it. As a hero. He became a key figure

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Speaker 1: in the Me Too movement. And I remember the moment

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Speaker 1: that that story broke. Suddenly I knew that my story

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Speaker 1: was somehow going to become part of this reckoning that

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Speaker 1: Me Too brought about. Did you want it to be

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Speaker 1: part of it? I didn't want it to be part

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Speaker 1: of it. I was so focused on healing and recovery

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Speaker 1: at that point. But then as Eric became more and

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Speaker 1: more public about being an ally of the Me Too movement,

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Speaker 1: he was filing legal cases against Harvey Weinstein. I submitted

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Speaker 1: myself to the process of investigative journalism after I spoke

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Speaker 1: with David Remnick of The New Yorker, and then Jane

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Speaker 1: Mayer was assigned to the story, and then Ronan Pharaoh

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Speaker 1: also became a reporter on the story. Did you fear

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Speaker 1: that he could hurt you, whether it was physically or publicly.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the power and influence he had, especially at

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Speaker 1: that time, cannot be overstated. This is why I say

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Speaker 1: America is getting out an abusive relationship. It's like we're

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Speaker 1: so conditioned to we're ship false profits because they're in

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Speaker 1: positions of power, or because they're very talented people, and

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Speaker 1: they're very damaging for society. And I knew very deeply

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Speaker 1: that one cannot be a champion of women publicly and

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Speaker 1: abuse them privately. And the political outcome was extraordinary, which

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Speaker 1: was that New York has its first female and black

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Speaker 1: Attorney General in Leticia Chains. So the transformation of the

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Speaker 1: political landscape. That was not an intention, but it was

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Speaker 1: something that made me realize how important it is to

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Speaker 1: share our truths because they might result in outcomes that

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Speaker 1: really do improve. You know, behind every perpetrator there is

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Speaker 1: usually an enabler, and sadly, many of those enablers are women.

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Speaker 1: In some cases, their own power is entangled with the

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Speaker 1: power of this abusive man. In some cases, this abusive

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Speaker 1: man is their conduit to power. So there were multiple

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Speaker 1: women I know their names. I'm not going to say

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Speaker 1: them now. I don't want them coming after me who

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Speaker 1: are very powerful, who were trying to discredit the New

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Speaker 1: Yorker story, and who were trying to discredit me behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes in the months after it came out. Once

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Speaker 1: the story came out, did you hear from him or

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Speaker 1: his team after the story came out? Immediately, Governor Cuomo

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Speaker 1: announced that there would be a special prosecutor put on

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Speaker 1: the case, and I never heard from Eric Schneiderman again.

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Speaker 1: The investigation kicked in immediately. The outcome was that the

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Speaker 1: bar was too high for their to be criminal charges,

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Speaker 1: But the special prosecutor made a statement that she believes

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Speaker 1: the women's stories and also that she was posing new

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Speaker 1: legislation about this type of abuse, about strangulation and physical

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Speaker 1: violence without consent, and also Eric Schneiderman himself made a

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Speaker 1: statement where he apologized for the harm that he had

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Speaker 1: inflicted and that he was in rehab and getting help.

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Speaker 1: It was extraordinary that you had the strength to leave.

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Speaker 1: There's this bizarre attachment between being a victim and feeling

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Speaker 1: shame around it. Did you feel that and did that

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Speaker 1: change over time? Because as you're speaking, I can sort

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Speaker 1: of feel your power building. I didn't set out to

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Speaker 1: write a thriller, which many people have described it as.

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Speaker 1: I wrote what happened, But I'm glad when I hear

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Speaker 1: that response because it was a scary time and it

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Speaker 1: was a roller coaster of a time. I'm hopeful that

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Speaker 1: a lot of men read the book, and I hope

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Speaker 1: that high school students read the book. One in four

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Speaker 1: women and one in ten men will experience some form

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Speaker 1: of sexual violence during their lifespan, and many of those

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Speaker 1: experienced that violence before they turn eighteen. So there needs

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Speaker 1: to be increased education and awareness and also increased legislation

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Speaker 1: so that, like what had happened in my case, that

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Speaker 1: there are repercussions for this type of harm m After

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Speaker 1: an investigation, charges were not filed against Schneiderman. The Nassau

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Speaker 1: County District Attorney said at the time she believed the women,

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Speaker 1: but legal issues, including statutes of limitations, stopped them from

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Speaker 1: prosecuting the former attorney general. After that decision, Mr Schneiderman

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Speaker 1: released a statement, writing, in part quote, I recognize that

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Speaker 1: District Attorney sing us his decision not to prosecute does

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Speaker 1: not mean I have done nothing wrong. I accept full

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Speaker 1: responsibility for my conduct in my relationships with my accusers

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Speaker 1: and for the impact I had on them. After spending

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Speaker 1: time in a rehab facility, I am committed to a

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Speaker 1: lifelong path of recovery and making amends to those I

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Speaker 1: have harmed. I apologize for any and all pain that

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Speaker 1: I have caused, and I apologize to the people of

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Speaker 1: the state of New York for disappointing them after they

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Speaker 1: put their trust in me. On this podcast, we like

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Speaker 1: to leave you with something to think about. And something

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Speaker 1: Tanya left me thinking about was this. The Me Too

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Speaker 1: movement shined a spotlight on workplace abuse and abuse by

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Speaker 1: many powerful men, famous men, but as Tanya noted, victims,

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Speaker 1: they can be anyone often violence happens in one's own

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Speaker 1: home or with a committed partner, and the stigma surrounding

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Speaker 1: this kind of violence, this kind of abuse, it exists

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Speaker 1: in a big way. Many women don't feel like they

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Speaker 1: can share their story or escape the bad situation. There

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Speaker 1: Many outsiders don't consider it a prison. We don't understand

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Speaker 1: the paralysis. Oftentimes victims blame themselves for getting into those

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Speaker 1: relationships to begin with. So does there need to be

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Speaker 1: a me too? Part two are reckoning on intimate violence,

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Speaker 1: a close look at what a victim actually looks like,

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Speaker 1: and a shift in what we think acceptable behavior is

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Speaker 1: because all of this could hopefully ultimately help us create

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Speaker 1: a world where women are a whole lot safer. I'm

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Speaker 1: Stephanie Rule and you're listening to Modern Rules, a podcast

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Speaker 1: from NBC Think, MSNBC and I Heart Radio. This podcast

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Speaker 1: is hosted by Me Stephanie Rule. Mike Beet and Katrina

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Speaker 1: Norvell are executive producers. Meredith Bennett Smith is Senior editor

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Speaker 1: for NBC Think and our editorial lead. The podcast is

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Speaker 1: engineered and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional production support provided

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Speaker 1: by Charles Herman, Rachel Rosenbaum, and warn Win and special

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Speaker 1: thanks to Katherine kim Are, Global head of Digital News

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Speaker 1: right here at NBC News and MSNBC. For more thought

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Speaker 1: provoking analysis, visit NBC news dot com slash thank