WEBVTT - Maggie Rowe - Sinning Bravely and Moral Scrupulosity 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:03.360 Do you ever scroll through social media only to find 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:07.960 yourself bombarded by bad news, hot takes, mommy bloggers, influencers 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.879 and picture perfect families or professionals who are honored yet 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.920 also humbled to share more great news about their career. 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:17.479 It's hard to not get wrapped up in how everyone 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.439 else is doing, But what about you? How are you feeling? 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.040 Is there anything you'd like to change? And what are 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:25.960 you doing to change it? At Cerebral, we believe making 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:28.480 time for your mental health is key to your overall 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:31.200 well being. That's why we make it easier than ever 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:35.199 to access therapy and doctor prescribed medication tailored to work 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.640 for you. And the best part, Cerebral offers in network 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:41.680 care so you can focus on feeling better without worrying 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.040 about cost. Seventy two percent of people say they felt 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:48.600 better in just twelve weeks, So take the first step today. 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:52.520 Visit Cerebral dot com slash podcast to see how affordable 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:56.360 and accessible mental health care can be with insurance. Cerebral 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:58.240 make time for mind time. 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:00.560 If you have your own story of being in a 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:02.400 cult or a high control group. 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:05.120 Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abuse of 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:06.440 power that you'd like to share. 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:08.720 Leave us a message on our hotline number at three 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:11.000 four seven eight six trust. 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.760 That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight. 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:18.640 Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com. 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:21.959 Trust me, Trust me. 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:24.759 I'm like a swat person. I've never lived. 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:28.720 To you, I never If you think that one person 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:31.200 has all the answers, don't. 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:32.679 Welcome to trust me. 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:36.200 The podcast about cult, extreme belief and manipulation from two 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:38.040 obsessors have actually experienced it. 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:39.959 I am low La Blanc. 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.160 And I'm Megan Elizabeth. 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:45.000 And obsessors, we actually are this time. This one's real. Today. 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.600 Our guest is Maggie Rowe, former writer on Arrested Development 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:51.480 and author of Sin Bravely, a book about her experiences 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.720 with moral scrupulosity or sin focused OCD. 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.400 So we do talk a lot about OCD on this show. 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:01.120 And here's a guest who wrote an entire book about 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.760 growing up with religious obsessions. She's going to tell us 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:07.000 about her first obsessions about what was and was not sin, 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.880 how she started to analyze the Bible with a critical 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.440 mind to try to understand how to avoid hell, and 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:14.799 how her parents tried to help but her church leaders 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:16.800 didn't understand OCD and made it worse. 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:18.639 It might not sound like it, but this book is 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:23.360 extremely funny. It's very interview I we'll also talk about 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:26.000 the compulsion she would engage in to make sure she 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.200 was being the right amount of righteous, how she checked 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:33.680 herself into a treatment facility for Christians, the incorrect diagnosis 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:37.120 of bolimia she received, and how she finally got diagnosed 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:41.360 with moral scrupulosity and began getting the treatment she actually needed. 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:45.080 Hell, yeah, Maggie is so funny, and she was so 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:47.200 funny when we weren't recording. If you guys had heard 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.400 this story about her getting caught in her front gate 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.040 as it was moving, it's. 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.600 Like the reverse Bridesmaids, Like when in the beginning of 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:57.959 Bridesmaids when she gets caught on top of the gate. 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:02.040 Maggie got caught under under her gate trying to get 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:06.360 on the podcast. So she like loves something outside and yeah, 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:07.800 she's gold. 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.720 So to have somebody who's written and worked and produced 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.839 and arrested development one of my favorite shows ever. And 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.200 then also had this thing like when she released the book, 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:20.840 I remember reading it and being like, this is the 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:25.320 closest I've ever related to somebody about obsessing about how 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:26.640 and it's fucking funny. 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.880 Hmmm, yeah, it is super funny before we get into it, 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.040 and you can hear how funny it is. 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.280 With your own two ears, or I. 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.280 Mean, you know, don't set their expectations too high. 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:42.600 You can hear what it is that we're talking about. Megan, 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.480 what's your cultiest thing of the weekly? 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.440 Okay, there's a big case in Australia. A girl just 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:55.200 died because she's eight years old because this faith based 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:57.800 mission was like, we're gonna pray her diabetes away, and 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.880 they're all going to jail. It's getting like prosecuted right now. 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.280 But I'm not going to choose that one. Okay, what 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.040 I'm going to choose, that's just like I'm just letting 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.520 you guys know that's happening. I'm going to choose this 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:14.119 new exercise class that I joined. It's kind of ballet based, right, 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:17.599 I've been doing it for a million years. I took 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:21.400 a long break, I came back and I really love it. 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:27.200 But I realized the other day how baked in unwritten 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.279 rules are because there was a girl in the class 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:35.480 who wasn't behaving like you're supposed to. For example, when 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.320 we would do something really hard like auja, oh my gosh, 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:39.080 this suck. 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:39.440 Like. 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:46.359 Just being loud and you're not supposed to make a 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:48.960 peep in this class, And I was like, oh, wow, 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:56.280 that's so interesting, Like the slightest variation from expected behavior 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.320 is so affronting, even in something as stupid as an 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.040 exercise class. So, you know, I don't know. 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:07.200 It just reminded me that it's okay to make noises 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:12.080 and classes that are hard. I don't need to I 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:18.080 don't need to like subscribe so diligently to this unwritten rule. 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.839 And maybe next time I'll be like, shit, this is hard, 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:23.680 and you know, yeah, break the mold. 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:24.880 Right the old megan. 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:28.760 Yeah, maybe I will. Maybe I will. So anyway, that's mine, 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:30.039 what about you? What's yours? 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.240 Well, before I say mine, I like the idea that 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.160 it would be like, okay, so in this episode, since 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.480 we're talking so much about OCD, I like the idea that, 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:40.920 like we need to sort of build up our tolerance 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:46.360 to defying group expectations. Yeah, and that seems like such 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.640 a safe, nice way to like do a little exposure. 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:50.920 So yeah, I like it. 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:51.680 I like it. 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:55.480 Yeah, Okay, okay, So what do you think I should 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:57.920 do just like crack a joke. 0:05:58.360 --> 0:05:59.560 Yeah, or just be like. 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:06.000 Whoa, that was hard, but yeah, I want to do 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.160 that so great, love it. 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:09.599 I'll keep y'all updated. 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:12.320 I think we should all look for ways and maybe 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:13.719 this is a thing I don't know. I like it 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.680 to ways, to find small little ways to defy the 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:18.360 pressures that. 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.800 We feel from a group to conform. 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:24.000 I think that would be a really interesting exercise. 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.240 Oh god, I'm like pre embarrassed for myself, but I'm 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:30.679 gonna do it. Okay, what's yours, Lola? What's yours? 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:31.440 Um? 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.200 You know, it's always social media, if I like, when 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.440 is it not social media? I mean, it's the country, 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.240 it's the country, and it's social media. 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:43.480 And this week I posted on. 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.760 Social media about the country shocking, and I was actually 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:52.719 talking about how indoctrinated groups will tell their followers that 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:58.280 everybody else is indoctrinated, and it can become very confusing 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.640 when you're trying to decilearn like who's really in the 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:07.279 cult and who isn't, because everyone is telling their group 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:11.440 that the other people are indoctrinated. Just because you are 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.240 being told that another group is indoctrinated, doesn't mean that 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.640 yours isn't right, right, So it can be it can 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:18.440 be so confusing. 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:20.520 And so what I what I focused on in the 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:21.800 in the video. 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:23.960 Was like you did a video, I did a video, 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:25.960 And what I focused on in my video about that 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.960 was the control of information and the silencing of critique 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.000 and punishing journalists and that kind of thing. And those 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.560 points are points that I definitely want to make. But 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:37.640 what was interesting about it, which is like sort of 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:38.760 a weird takeaway, but. 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.480 Was that I talked really fast. 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.560 In the beginning of the video to like I mean, 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:48.640 I just was like feeling some kind of way, and 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:50.120 I was like, I'm just gonna talk fast in this 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:51.800 one and see what happens. And I did so much 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.360 better than all of my other normal, normal pace talking. 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.840 And I and I just find that curious. I find 0:07:58.840 --> 0:07:59.560 that interesting. 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.960 It's it's like everybody's arguing on this fucking video. I 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:06.600 wonder if some of it is that when you talk 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:11.240 fast and loud, you seem confident, and so people want 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:14.600 to listen and like, not that I am trying to 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.200 become like a cult leader of any kind. 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:21.080 I am just trying not at all. 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.440 Definitely, but like there, it is difficult to cut through 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:27.440 on social media, so like you know, you look for 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:29.600 like ways to do that. And it made me think 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:31.840 about the other people who've blown up on social media 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:34.280 and like the way that they're literally just just the 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.360 their tone and the way that they're talking about what 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.320 they're talking about. It seems like it can be almost 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:40.440 more important than the content itself. So I just thought 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:44.520 that was an interesting little window into like cutting through 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:45.880 the noise online. 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:47.800 It's so scary. 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:49.400 It's so scary. 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.520 Because also I don't want to talk that fast in 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:52.840 order to make my points. 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:54.480 I can't keep that up. 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:56.720 Like I did, go to auctioneer school as a kid, 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:59.839 like I did, I can do it, but I don't. 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:03.400 Think can we bring your ventriloquism into the into the 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.960 mix as well? We need your auctioneering you're during trilloquism, 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:11.400 and then finally the arc will be complete. 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:13.719 Oh my god, maybe that's the secret to my to 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:14.440 go viral. 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:18.520 I think it might be well, interesting points, interesting points. 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.160 I'm excited to see how many more videos you do 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.720 like this and if you become the auctioneer girl, hell. 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:28.199 Ya go on? 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:32.240 All right? Stoph we talk to Maggie. 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:33.000 Let's do it. 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:38.920 When is the last time you saw your doctor? 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:42.360 We know you spend your free time looking up your symptoms. 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.520 And yes, we also know that finding the right doctor 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:45.360 can be daunting. 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.680 So let's talk about ZocDoc, the free app and website 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:51.920 where you can search and compare high quality in network 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.760 doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:58.960 Okay, I literally actually have booked two different appointments this week, 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:01.640 one with a guy iecologists and one with the dermatologists, 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.840 and it was so easy to see the reviews and 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:05.640 pick a time. 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.280 You can book in network appointments with more than one 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:11.520 hundred thousand doctors across every specialty. 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.040 From mental health to dental health, primary care to urgent 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:14.920 care and more. 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.600 They have so many filters from your insurance to your location, 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:21.679 to your medical needs to verified patient reviews. 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:23.640 Once you find the right doctor, you can see their 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:26.760 actual appointment openings, choose a time slot that works for you, 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:28.880 and click to instantly book a visit. 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:32.440 Appointments made through ZocDoc also happened fast, typically within just 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.240 twenty four to seventy two hours of booking. 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How are you feeling? 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:47.559 Is there anything you'd like to change and what are 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.480 you doing to change it? At Cerebral, we believe making 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.000 time for your mental health is key to your overall 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:55.720 well being. That's why we make it easier than ever 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.679 to access therapy and doctor prescribed medication. Taylored to work 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:02.640 for you. You and the best part, Cerebral offers in 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.920 network care so you can focus on feeling better without 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.319 worrying about cost. Seventy two percent of people say they 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.440 felt better in just twelve weeks. So take the first 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.320 step today. Visit Cerebral dot com slash podcast to see 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.920 how affordable and accessible mental health care can be with insurance. 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.720 Cerebral make time for mine time. 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.040 Welcome Maggie Rowe to trust me. Thanks for joining us today. 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:32.600 So happy to be here, so happy to have you. 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:34.680 Megan is obsessed. 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:35.559 With you completely. 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:36.320 Uh. 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:38.960 This book is one of my favorites. It really helped 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.360 me unwind a lot of my own trauma. And Maggie 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:44.880 risked her life by being here today. She almost got 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:46.600 killed by her gate. 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.199 Nobody knows what we mean, but trust me, it was hilarious. 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:51.920 Maggie. 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.679 So you wrote a book called Sin Bravely, and that's 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:56.480 your story in this book is what we're going to 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:59.160 talk about today. I know Megan and I both resonated 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.400 so much with it because of our own you know, 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.720 Megan's particular fear of hell in my particular just obsessive thinking. 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:08.920 So can you just start by telling us what was 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.160 the church that your family attended when you were growing up. 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.920 The church that I attended was fairly moderate. Actually it 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:20.040 was a Baptist church, oddly a Southern Baptist church in 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:26.360 the Midwest. The church was fairly moderate. But the Christian 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:32.400 camps and the overall message, even if it wasn't dwelt 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:36.280 on that you have to say this very specific prayer, 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.240 and you have to say it with a very specific 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:44.880 sort of sincerity and commitment, or it doesn't work. 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.080 It's going to give me hives just thinking about it. 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:52.760 I can't And there's no certificate that comes in the mail. 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:59.800 The most important thing that could ever even conceivably matter, 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:03.079 the most important thing, and you have no confirmation whether 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:05.040 your prayer. 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:10.200 Worked, whether you're spending eternity in flames or you're in heaven. 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:12.360 Yeah, that's the matter at hand. 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:16.360 For a lot of people who are children, even today, 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.400 it's a very strange little thing that we teach kids about. 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.400 Your book, you do such a great job of illustrating how. 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.320 And we'll get into more of these specifics but just generally, 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.840 like how people in the churches and church camps and 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.240 communities that you were a part of would just kind 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:34.120 of respond to your questions with a thought terminating cliche 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:36.960 like well, you're just supposed to have faith or just 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:39.560 let accept Jesus. But when you have a brain like 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:44.200 yours or mine or megans, it's going to be like, 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.600 but how do you know specifically how many times do 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:46.920 you say? 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:48.320 What inflection do you you know? 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.400 Like, you do such a good job of illustrating how 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:55.560 not everybody is so comfortable feels that certainty so immediately. 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.960 And here's the thing, here's what I was told sometimes 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:03.280 that was just the killer was when I was told, well, 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.720 if you were really a Christian, the Holy Spirit would 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:10.720 convict you of your salvation, which was like, oho, So 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.480 the fact that I'm scared of this is an indictment. 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.680 It's an indication that it did not take like that 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:23.160 little loop that that sets off. Ooh, that's a nasty one. 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:24.120 Oh my god. 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:27.160 So what was the first thing that your child brain 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.680 began to sort of fixate on. 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.360 As soon as I said to that prayer, I was 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:37.160 five years old, and I remember I said it a 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:41.520 bunch of times. That first night, there was a Sunday 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:47.280 school class where they had described the notion of eternity 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:51.680 as they were defining it. And then imagine the worst 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.520 thing you could ever imagine happening. And I imagined being 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.760 separated from my parents because I had done something wrong. 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:02.520 I had poisoned that Like, I just imagined a horrible thing, 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:09.280 and then it continuing. I was horrified, and I was like, Okay, 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:10.680 I gotta say this. 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:12.440 Prayer, and what's the prayer? 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:13.600 Yeah, what is the prayer? 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:18.720 Oh Lord Jesus, I accept you into my heart as 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:23.440 my personal savior. I repent for all of my sins 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.400 and resolve to sin no more. 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:30.200 Oh wow, that's a big resolution. 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.280 As a five year old, that's hard. 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:35.920 And of course as an adult, I can think, well, 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.640 I can resolve to sin no more, but of course 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.720 I have the realistic expectation that that's an impossibility. But 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.680 a child's brain and what do I really resolve to 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.560 sin no more? And then there was the concept of 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:53.200 the deliberate sin, which was a real kicker, and that 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:56.160 was the idea that if you were truly a Christian, 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:02.120 you would not deliberately sin with forethought. You could mess up. 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.400 You could, you know, bump your knee and go shit 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.920 and go oh oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That was unconscious. 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:13.280 You could do something reflexively, but if you were really 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:16.080 a Christian, you would not go, I am going to 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:20.000 lie in this situation. Like I remember one when I 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.960 was a kid that I just spun out about we 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.520 had I was like maybe eight, and we had guests 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.000 over and I needed to go to the bathroom and 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.280 I was embarrased for some reason. You know, it was 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.600 just to get like, so I just said, I'm just 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:35.800 gonna go wash my hands. 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:41.080 But like, but you secretly peede, yes. 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.640 Secretly this child that's like, I'm just going to wash 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:48.680 my hands. But afterwards I was like, m I knew 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:50.959 ahead of time that I was going to lie, and 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:55.840 I did lie. And a true Christian, someone for whom 0:17:55.880 --> 0:18:01.080 that prayer worked, would not deliberately send and so it 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.080 wasn't here Like when I try to explain to people 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:08.920 my particular headloop of this particular type of evangelicalism, it's 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:13.280 not that the sin causes you to be punished. It's 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:17.280 that the sin is an indication that the grace has 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:21.400 not worked, and so you will be punished. 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:22.760 That hurts my brain. 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.960 Okay, so the sin is not an indication that you 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:29.119 will be punished. The sin is an indication that you 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:30.080 have not been saved. 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:32.480 You have not been saved. It's not that the sin 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:36.480 causes the it's like because you're free and good, but 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:38.720 if it really worked, you wouldn't be doing it. 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:41.919 So when you're saved, you commit no sin is the idea, 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:46.320 no deliberate, No deliberates, So you could do a manslaughter sin, but. 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:54.400 Not absolutely crime of passion. Fine, absolutely lying about being wrong. Yes, yes, 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.399 you know one of the things that I got super 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.560 caught in. And I don't know what the three of 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.399 us have common that made this something for us. But 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.720 like I remember being really little, like three even, and 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.199 they would always say, you know, a spirit like a child. 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:12.720 You have to have a spirit like a child. That's 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.680 the most Christian thing that Jesus loves. And I'd be like, well, 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.240 I'm kind of a dick, so I must not be 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.439 doing this child thing right because I'm selfish and I'm like, 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:25.480 you know, I want my toys and all that shit. 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:29.439 So like from the jump, I was already like, oh no, 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:30.680 I'm not doing it right. 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:34.159 I'm not even being a child right totally. 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:36.919 That picture of like let the children come unto me 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:42.880 and Jesus with all of these innocent, bright seeming children, 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:45.800 there's a you know, I know shame is such a 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:51.200 buzzword these days, but I do feel like that original 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:57.000 sin thing and not measuring up to have morality like 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:02.879 that as a child is a real as opposed to 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:08.000 the Buddhist notion that we're naturally good, that we have 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:13.280 this natural Buddha nature and it gets sullied and cramped 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:19.600 and misshapen. But I just think that intrinsic orientation makes 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:20.680 a big difference. 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:21.840 That's interesting. 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:26.120 Yeah, what did your parents and your church leaders say 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.720 when you brought up these thoughts to them? 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:35.200 So my parents were wonderful in the sense that they said, 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:38.840 you are saved, you are saved, you said it right, 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:42.320 you did it right, You're fine, let it go, let 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:47.240 it go, And that was kind of all they could 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:53.840 do other than rejecting the notion altogether. Right, But even 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:57.320 with their reassurances, I was like shit. I was like, 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:01.160 my parents have been wrong about things all the time. 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:05.159 I have seen, you know, people are wrong. They just 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.880 haven't thought this through, like I have and I had 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:12.879 this I remember this Ryri study Bible that I had 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:17.160 that had four different translations of the verses in one 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:19.760 so it was in four different columns, and so I 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.199 would just read through. You could go to Hell, you know, 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:25.160 look in Hell in the index, and then I would 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:27.480