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Speaker 1: Do you ever scroll through social media only to find

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Speaker 1: yourself bombarded by bad news, hot takes, mommy bloggers, influencers

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Speaker 1: and picture perfect families or professionals who are honored yet

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Speaker 1: also humbled to share more great news about their career.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to not get wrapped up in how everyone

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Speaker 1: else is doing, But what about you? How are you feeling?

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Speaker 1: Is there anything you'd like to change? And what are

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Speaker 1: you doing to change it? At Cerebral, we believe making

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Speaker 1: time for your mental health is key to your overall

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Speaker 1: well being. That's why we make it easier than ever

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Speaker 1: to access therapy and doctor prescribed medication tailored to work

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Speaker 1: for you. And the best part, Cerebral offers in network

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Speaker 1: care so you can focus on feeling better without worrying

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Speaker 1: about cost. Seventy two percent of people say they felt

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Speaker 1: better in just twelve weeks, So take the first step today.

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Speaker 1: Visit Cerebral dot com slash podcast to see how affordable

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Speaker 1: and accessible mental health care can be with insurance. Cerebral

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Speaker 1: make time for mind time.

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Speaker 2: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 2: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 3: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abuse of

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Speaker 3: power that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 2: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 2: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 3: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 2: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 4: Trust me, Trust me.

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Speaker 5: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived.

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Speaker 3: To you, I never If you think that one person

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Speaker 3: has all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 6: Welcome to trust me.

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Speaker 3: The podcast about cult, extreme belief and manipulation from two

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Speaker 3: obsessors have actually experienced it.

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Speaker 6: I am low La Blanc.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 6: And obsessors, we actually are this time. This one's real. Today.

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Speaker 3: Our guest is Maggie Rowe, former writer on Arrested Development

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Speaker 3: and author of Sin Bravely, a book about her experiences

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Speaker 3: with moral scrupulosity or sin focused OCD.

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Speaker 6: So we do talk a lot about OCD on this show.

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Speaker 3: And here's a guest who wrote an entire book about

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Speaker 3: growing up with religious obsessions. She's going to tell us

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Speaker 3: about her first obsessions about what was and was not sin,

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Speaker 3: how she started to analyze the Bible with a critical

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Speaker 3: mind to try to understand how to avoid hell, and

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Speaker 3: how her parents tried to help but her church leaders

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Speaker 3: didn't understand OCD and made it worse.

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Speaker 4: It might not sound like it, but this book is

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Speaker 4: extremely funny. It's very interview I we'll also talk about

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Speaker 4: the compulsion she would engage in to make sure she

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Speaker 4: was being the right amount of righteous, how she checked

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Speaker 4: herself into a treatment facility for Christians, the incorrect diagnosis

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Speaker 4: of bolimia she received, and how she finally got diagnosed

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Speaker 4: with moral scrupulosity and began getting the treatment she actually needed.

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Speaker 3: Hell, yeah, Maggie is so funny, and she was so

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Speaker 3: funny when we weren't recording. If you guys had heard

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Speaker 3: this story about her getting caught in her front gate

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Speaker 3: as it was moving, it's.

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Speaker 4: Like the reverse Bridesmaids, Like when in the beginning of

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Speaker 4: Bridesmaids when she gets caught on top of the gate.

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Speaker 4: Maggie got caught under under her gate trying to get

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Speaker 4: on the podcast. So she like loves something outside and yeah,

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Speaker 4: she's gold.

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Speaker 2: So to have somebody who's written and worked and produced

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Speaker 2: and arrested development one of my favorite shows ever. And

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Speaker 2: then also had this thing like when she released the book,

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Speaker 2: I remember reading it and being like, this is the

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Speaker 2: closest I've ever related to somebody about obsessing about how

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Speaker 2: and it's fucking funny.

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Speaker 3: Hmmm, yeah, it is super funny before we get into it,

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Speaker 3: and you can hear how funny it is.

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Speaker 4: With your own two ears, or I.

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Speaker 6: Mean, you know, don't set their expectations too high.

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Speaker 3: You can hear what it is that we're talking about. Megan,

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Speaker 3: what's your cultiest thing of the weekly?

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Speaker 4: Okay, there's a big case in Australia. A girl just

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Speaker 4: died because she's eight years old because this faith based

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Speaker 4: mission was like, we're gonna pray her diabetes away, and

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Speaker 4: they're all going to jail. It's getting like prosecuted right now.

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Speaker 4: But I'm not going to choose that one. Okay, what

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Speaker 4: I'm going to choose, that's just like I'm just letting

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Speaker 4: you guys know that's happening. I'm going to choose this

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Speaker 4: new exercise class that I joined. It's kind of ballet based, right,

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Speaker 4: I've been doing it for a million years. I took

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Speaker 4: a long break, I came back and I really love it.

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Speaker 4: But I realized the other day how baked in unwritten

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Speaker 4: rules are because there was a girl in the class

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Speaker 4: who wasn't behaving like you're supposed to. For example, when

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Speaker 4: we would do something really hard like auja, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 4: this suck.

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Speaker 1: Like.

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Speaker 4: Just being loud and you're not supposed to make a

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Speaker 4: peep in this class, And I was like, oh, wow,

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Speaker 4: that's so interesting, Like the slightest variation from expected behavior

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Speaker 4: is so affronting, even in something as stupid as an

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Speaker 4: exercise class. So, you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It just reminded me that it's okay to make noises

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Speaker 2: and classes that are hard. I don't need to I

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Speaker 2: don't need to like subscribe so diligently to this unwritten rule.

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Speaker 2: And maybe next time I'll be like, shit, this is hard,

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Speaker 2: and you know, yeah, break the mold.

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Speaker 6: Right the old megan.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe I will. Maybe I will. So anyway, that's mine,

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Speaker 4: what about you? What's yours?

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Speaker 3: Well, before I say mine, I like the idea that

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Speaker 3: it would be like, okay, so in this episode, since

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Speaker 3: we're talking so much about OCD, I like the idea that,

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Speaker 3: like we need to sort of build up our tolerance

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Speaker 3: to defying group expectations. Yeah, and that seems like such

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Speaker 3: a safe, nice way to like do a little exposure.

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Speaker 6: So yeah, I like it.

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Speaker 4: I like it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, okay, So what do you think I should

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Speaker 2: do just like crack a joke.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, or just be like.

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Speaker 2: Whoa, that was hard, but yeah, I want to do

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Speaker 2: that so great, love it.

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Speaker 4: I'll keep y'all updated.

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Speaker 3: I think we should all look for ways and maybe

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Speaker 3: this is a thing I don't know. I like it

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Speaker 3: to ways, to find small little ways to defy the

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Speaker 3: pressures that.

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Speaker 6: We feel from a group to conform.

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Speaker 3: I think that would be a really interesting exercise.

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Speaker 4: Oh god, I'm like pre embarrassed for myself, but I'm

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Speaker 4: gonna do it. Okay, what's yours, Lola? What's yours?

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Speaker 2: Um?

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Speaker 3: You know, it's always social media, if I like, when

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Speaker 3: is it not social media? I mean, it's the country,

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Speaker 3: it's the country, and it's social media.

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Speaker 6: And this week I posted on.

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Speaker 3: Social media about the country shocking, and I was actually

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Speaker 3: talking about how indoctrinated groups will tell their followers that

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Speaker 3: everybody else is indoctrinated, and it can become very confusing

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Speaker 3: when you're trying to decilearn like who's really in the

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Speaker 3: cult and who isn't, because everyone is telling their group

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Speaker 3: that the other people are indoctrinated. Just because you are

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Speaker 3: being told that another group is indoctrinated, doesn't mean that

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Speaker 3: yours isn't right, right, So it can be it can

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Speaker 3: be so confusing.

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Speaker 6: And so what I what I focused on in the

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Speaker 6: in the video.

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Speaker 3: Was like you did a video, I did a video,

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Speaker 3: And what I focused on in my video about that

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Speaker 3: was the control of information and the silencing of critique

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Speaker 3: and punishing journalists and that kind of thing. And those

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Speaker 3: points are points that I definitely want to make. But

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Speaker 3: what was interesting about it, which is like sort of

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Speaker 3: a weird takeaway, but.

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Speaker 6: Was that I talked really fast.

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Speaker 3: In the beginning of the video to like I mean,

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Speaker 3: I just was like feeling some kind of way, and

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Speaker 3: I was like, I'm just gonna talk fast in this

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Speaker 3: one and see what happens. And I did so much

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Speaker 3: better than all of my other normal, normal pace talking.

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Speaker 6: And I and I just find that curious. I find

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Speaker 6: that interesting.

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Speaker 3: It's it's like everybody's arguing on this fucking video. I

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Speaker 3: wonder if some of it is that when you talk

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Speaker 3: fast and loud, you seem confident, and so people want

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Speaker 3: to listen and like, not that I am trying to

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Speaker 3: become like a cult leader of any kind.

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Speaker 6: I am just trying not at all.

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Speaker 3: Definitely, but like there, it is difficult to cut through

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Speaker 3: on social media, so like you know, you look for

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Speaker 3: like ways to do that. And it made me think

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Speaker 3: about the other people who've blown up on social media

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Speaker 3: and like the way that they're literally just just the

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Speaker 3: their tone and the way that they're talking about what

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Speaker 3: they're talking about. It seems like it can be almost

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Speaker 3: more important than the content itself. So I just thought

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Speaker 3: that was an interesting little window into like cutting through

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Speaker 3: the noise online.

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Speaker 7: It's so scary.

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Speaker 6: It's so scary.

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Speaker 3: Because also I don't want to talk that fast in

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Speaker 3: order to make my points.

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Speaker 6: I can't keep that up.

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Speaker 3: Like I did, go to auctioneer school as a kid,

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Speaker 3: like I did, I can do it, but I don't.

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Speaker 4: Think can we bring your ventriloquism into the into the

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Speaker 4: mix as well? We need your auctioneering you're during trilloquism,

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Speaker 4: and then finally the arc will be complete.

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Speaker 6: Oh my god, maybe that's the secret to my to

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Speaker 6: go viral.

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Speaker 4: I think it might be well, interesting points, interesting points.

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Speaker 4: I'm excited to see how many more videos you do

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Speaker 4: like this and if you become the auctioneer girl, hell.

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Speaker 6: Ya go on?

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Speaker 4: All right? Stoph we talk to Maggie.

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Speaker 7: Let's do it.

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Speaker 6: When is the last time you saw your doctor?

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Speaker 4: We know you spend your free time looking up your symptoms.

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Speaker 3: And yes, we also know that finding the right doctor

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Speaker 3: can be daunting.

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Speaker 4: So let's talk about ZocDoc, the free app and website

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Speaker 4: where you can search and compare high quality in network

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Speaker 4: doctors and click to instantly book an appointment.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I literally actually have booked two different appointments this week,

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Speaker 3: one with a guy iecologists and one with the dermatologists,

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Speaker 3: and it was so easy to see the reviews and

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Speaker 3: pick a time.

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Speaker 4: You can book in network appointments with more than one

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Speaker 4: hundred thousand doctors across every specialty.

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Speaker 3: From mental health to dental health, primary care to urgent

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Speaker 4: They have so many filters from your insurance to your location,

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Speaker 4: to your medical needs to verified patient reviews.

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Speaker 3: Once you find the right doctor, you can see their

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Speaker 4: Appointments made through ZocDoc also happened fast, typically within just

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Speaker 4: twenty four to seventy two hours of booking. You can

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Speaker 3: Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to ZocDoc

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Speaker 3: dot com slash trust me to find and instantly book

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Speaker 4: That's zoc dooc dot com slash trust.

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Speaker 6: Me, ZocDoc dot com slash trust me.

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Speaker 8: Work management platforms ugh andless onboarding, iue, bottlenecks, admin quests.

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Speaker 8: But what if things were different?

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Speaker 1: We love enos.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything you'd like to change and what are

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Speaker 1: Cerebral make time for mine time.

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Speaker 6: Welcome Maggie Rowe to trust me. Thanks for joining us today.

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Speaker 6: So happy to be here, so happy to have you.

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Speaker 6: Megan is obsessed.

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Speaker 7: With you completely.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 2: This book is one of my favorites. It really helped

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Speaker 2: me unwind a lot of my own trauma. And Maggie

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Speaker 2: risked her life by being here today. She almost got

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Speaker 2: killed by her gate.

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Speaker 3: Nobody knows what we mean, but trust me, it was hilarious.

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Speaker 6: Maggie.

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Speaker 3: So you wrote a book called Sin Bravely, and that's

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Speaker 3: your story in this book is what we're going to

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Speaker 3: talk about today. I know Megan and I both resonated

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Speaker 3: so much with it because of our own you know,

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Speaker 3: Megan's particular fear of hell in my particular just obsessive thinking.

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Speaker 3: So can you just start by telling us what was

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Speaker 3: the church that your family attended when you were growing up.

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Speaker 5: The church that I attended was fairly moderate. Actually it

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Speaker 5: was a Baptist church, oddly a Southern Baptist church in

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Speaker 5: the Midwest. The church was fairly moderate. But the Christian

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Speaker 5: camps and the overall message, even if it wasn't dwelt

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Speaker 5: on that you have to say this very specific prayer,

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Speaker 5: and you have to say it with a very specific

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Speaker 5: sort of sincerity and commitment, or it doesn't work.

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Speaker 6: It's going to give me hives just thinking about it.

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Speaker 5: I can't And there's no certificate that comes in the mail.

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Speaker 5: The most important thing that could ever even conceivably matter,

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Speaker 5: the most important thing, and you have no confirmation whether

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Speaker 5: your prayer.

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Speaker 2: Worked, whether you're spending eternity in flames or you're in heaven.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, that's the matter at hand.

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Speaker 2: For a lot of people who are children, even today,

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Speaker 2: it's a very strange little thing that we teach kids about.

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Speaker 3: Your book, you do such a great job of illustrating how.

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Speaker 3: And we'll get into more of these specifics but just generally,

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Speaker 3: like how people in the churches and church camps and

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Speaker 3: communities that you were a part of would just kind

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Speaker 3: of respond to your questions with a thought terminating cliche

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Speaker 3: like well, you're just supposed to have faith or just

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Speaker 3: let accept Jesus. But when you have a brain like

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Speaker 3: yours or mine or megans, it's going to be like,

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Speaker 3: but how do you know specifically how many times do

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Speaker 3: you say?

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Speaker 6: What inflection do you you know?

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Speaker 3: Like, you do such a good job of illustrating how

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Speaker 3: not everybody is so comfortable feels that certainty so immediately.

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Speaker 5: And here's the thing, here's what I was told sometimes

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Speaker 5: that was just the killer was when I was told, well,

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Speaker 5: if you were really a Christian, the Holy Spirit would

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Speaker 5: convict you of your salvation, which was like, oho, So

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Speaker 5: the fact that I'm scared of this is an indictment.

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Speaker 5: It's an indication that it did not take like that

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Speaker 5: little loop that that sets off. Ooh, that's a nasty one.

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Speaker 6: Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: So what was the first thing that your child brain

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Speaker 3: began to sort of fixate on.

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Speaker 5: As soon as I said to that prayer, I was

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Speaker 5: five years old, and I remember I said it a

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Speaker 5: bunch of times. That first night, there was a Sunday

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Speaker 5: school class where they had described the notion of eternity

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Speaker 5: as they were defining it. And then imagine the worst

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Speaker 5: thing you could ever imagine happening. And I imagined being

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Speaker 5: separated from my parents because I had done something wrong.

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Speaker 5: I had poisoned that Like, I just imagined a horrible thing,

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Speaker 5: and then it continuing. I was horrified, and I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 5: I gotta say this.

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Speaker 7: Prayer, and what's the prayer?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, what is the prayer?

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Speaker 5: Oh Lord Jesus, I accept you into my heart as

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Speaker 5: my personal savior. I repent for all of my sins

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Speaker 5: and resolve to sin no more.

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Speaker 6: Oh wow, that's a big resolution.

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Speaker 7: As a five year old, that's hard.

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Speaker 5: And of course as an adult, I can think, well,

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Speaker 5: I can resolve to sin no more, but of course

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Speaker 5: I have the realistic expectation that that's an impossibility. But

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Speaker 5: a child's brain and what do I really resolve to

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Speaker 5: sin no more? And then there was the concept of

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Speaker 5: the deliberate sin, which was a real kicker, and that

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Speaker 5: was the idea that if you were truly a Christian,

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Speaker 5: you would not deliberately sin with forethought. You could mess up.

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Speaker 5: You could, you know, bump your knee and go shit

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Speaker 5: and go oh oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That was unconscious.

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Speaker 5: You could do something reflexively, but if you were really

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Speaker 5: a Christian, you would not go, I am going to

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Speaker 5: lie in this situation. Like I remember one when I

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Speaker 5: was a kid that I just spun out about we

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Speaker 5: had I was like maybe eight, and we had guests

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Speaker 5: over and I needed to go to the bathroom and

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Speaker 5: I was embarrased for some reason. You know, it was

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Speaker 5: just to get like, so I just said, I'm just

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Speaker 5: gonna go wash my hands.

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Speaker 4: But like, but you secretly peede, yes.

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Speaker 5: Secretly this child that's like, I'm just going to wash

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Speaker 5: my hands. But afterwards I was like, m I knew

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Speaker 5: ahead of time that I was going to lie, and

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Speaker 5: I did lie. And a true Christian, someone for whom

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Speaker 5: that prayer worked, would not deliberately send and so it

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Speaker 5: wasn't here Like when I try to explain to people

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Speaker 5: my particular headloop of this particular type of evangelicalism, it's

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Speaker 5: not that the sin causes you to be punished. It's

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Speaker 5: that the sin is an indication that the grace has

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Speaker 5: not worked, and so you will be punished.

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Speaker 6: That hurts my brain.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so the sin is not an indication that you

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Speaker 2: will be punished. The sin is an indication that you

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Speaker 2: have not been saved.

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Speaker 5: You have not been saved. It's not that the sin

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Speaker 5: causes the it's like because you're free and good, but

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Speaker 5: if it really worked, you wouldn't be doing it.

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Speaker 3: So when you're saved, you commit no sin is the idea,

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Speaker 3: no deliberate, No deliberates, So you could do a manslaughter sin, but.

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Speaker 2: Not absolutely crime of passion. Fine, absolutely lying about being wrong. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: you know one of the things that I got super

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Speaker 2: caught in. And I don't know what the three of

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Speaker 2: us have common that made this something for us. But

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Speaker 2: like I remember being really little, like three even, and

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Speaker 2: they would always say, you know, a spirit like a child.

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Speaker 2: You have to have a spirit like a child. That's

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Speaker 2: the most Christian thing that Jesus loves. And I'd be like, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of a dick, so I must not be

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Speaker 2: doing this child thing right because I'm selfish and I'm like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I want my toys and all that shit.

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Speaker 2: So like from the jump, I was already like, oh no,

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Speaker 2: I'm not doing it right.

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Speaker 7: I'm not even being a child right totally.

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Speaker 5: That picture of like let the children come unto me

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Speaker 5: and Jesus with all of these innocent, bright seeming children,

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Speaker 5: there's a you know, I know shame is such a

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Speaker 5: buzzword these days, but I do feel like that original

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Speaker 5: sin thing and not measuring up to have morality like

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Speaker 5: that as a child is a real as opposed to

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Speaker 5: the Buddhist notion that we're naturally good, that we have

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Speaker 5: this natural Buddha nature and it gets sullied and cramped

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Speaker 5: and misshapen. But I just think that intrinsic orientation makes

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Speaker 5: a big difference.

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Speaker 6: That's interesting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what did your parents and your church leaders say

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Speaker 3: when you brought up these thoughts to them?

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Speaker 5: So my parents were wonderful in the sense that they said,

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Speaker 5: you are saved, you are saved, you said it right,

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Speaker 5: you did it right, You're fine, let it go, let

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Speaker 5: it go, And that was kind of all they could

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Speaker 5: do other than rejecting the notion altogether. Right, But even

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Speaker 5: with their reassurances, I was like shit. I was like,

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Speaker 5: my parents have been wrong about things all the time.

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Speaker 5: I have seen, you know, people are wrong. They just

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Speaker 5: haven't thought this through, like I have and I had

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Speaker 5: this I remember this Ryri study Bible that I had

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Speaker 5: that had four different translations of the verses in one

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Speaker 5: so it was in four different columns, and so I

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Speaker 5: would just read through. You could go to Hell, you know,

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Speaker 5: look in Hell in the index, and then I would

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Speaker 5: just read all of the verses, and I'd read the

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Speaker 5: four different translations, and you know, one would be horrifying,

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Speaker 5: and one would be like like the living Bible would

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Speaker 5: have something, you know a little, but I would and

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Speaker 5: then I would read the commentary comparing the four different

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Speaker 5: and try to decipher what the odds are because there

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Speaker 5: were so many factors of that prayer.

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Speaker 7: You sound like a really chill middle schooler.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I knew how to party in a way.

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Speaker 3: You're OCD taught your really good critical thinking skills though,

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Speaker 3: because yeah, like examining the contradictions between everything, some of

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Speaker 3: the thoughts that you describe yourself having as a kid,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, that is so intelligent, even though it is

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Speaker 3: obsessive and like probably was deeply uncomfortable and painful, very

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Speaker 3: intelligent thoughts and analysis.

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Speaker 5: Like I remember, you know, like one concept that was

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Speaker 5: totally beyond well, it's beyond everybody. But the idea I

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Speaker 5: remember reading in these translations about the word for eternity,

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Speaker 5: what the Greek word was for it. It might have

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Speaker 5: been chiros, but but they one translation would be like

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Speaker 5: everlasting goes on and on and on. One would be

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Speaker 5: like it shatters time, it's beyond time. One would be like,

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Speaker 5: you know, it was all these ways to understand the

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Speaker 5: nuances of the Greek word that eternity rose from, and

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Speaker 5: like going, oh, I hope it's the one that chatters time. Please.

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Speaker 5: I would feel like such gratitude to whatever that, you know,

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Speaker 5: the new international version. I would be like, but then

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Speaker 5: I would look, and then another another word for eternity

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Speaker 5: would be used in another you know, it would just yeah.

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Speaker 3: Did your parents? Did anyone in your family have OCD?

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Speaker 3: Like maybe undiagnosed? Did it seem like it.

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Speaker 5: My grandmother who ended up having electroshock therapy and then

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Speaker 5: not being able to function again, I believe had different

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Speaker 5: She had different psychological struggles, but one of them I

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Speaker 5: think was OCD, And so the fear of what happened

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Speaker 5: to her was an ever present and she was the one.

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Speaker 5: She was the party girl. She smoked and wore red

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Speaker 5: lips and perfume, and she had an affair. My dad

439
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Speaker 5: was the product of an affair, you know, so she

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Speaker 5: was you know what I wanted to be. Yeah, so

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Speaker 5: cool then, but then she ended up living with us,

442
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 5: you know, sitting in a room in a rocking chair,

443
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 5: looking at a television that was not turned on. So

444
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 5: I think, you know, just the way a child's brain

445
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 5: kind of computes. Nobody ever told me that she was

446
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 5: punished for her lifestyle, but I believe that was in.

447
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 3: My head, right right, I mean, yes, how could it

448
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 3: not be. She was sort of the she represented all

449
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 3: the things that you were not supposed to be but

450
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 3: that you were drawn to, but you felt like it

451
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 3: was a sin and then bam, like that happens to her.

452
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 3: In that belief system, I think it'd be hard to

453
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 3: interpret it differently, honestly.

454
00:24:54,680 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you ever roll through social media only to

455
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: find yourself bombarded by bad news? Hot takes, mommy bloggers,

456
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: influencers and picture perfect families or professionals who are honored

457
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: yet also humbled to share more great news about their career.

458
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: It's hard to not get wrapped up in how everyone

459
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: else is doing, But what about you? How are you feeling,

460
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,719
Speaker 1: Is there anything you'd like to change and what are

461
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 1: you doing to change it? At Cerebral, we believe making

462
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: time for your mental health is key to your overall

463
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 1: well being. That's why we make it easier than ever

464
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 1: to access therapy and doctor prescribed medication tailored to work

465
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 1: for you. And the best part, Cerebral offers in network

466
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: care so you can focus on feeling better without worrying

467
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: about cost. Seventy two percent of people say they felt

468
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Speaker 1: better in just twelve weeks. So take the first step

469
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: today visit Cerebral dot com slash podcast to see how

470
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: affordable and accessible mental health care can be with insurance.

471
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 1: Cerebral make time for mind time.

472
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 3: What were some of the like compulsions that you were

473
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 3: doing before grace point? What were some of the compulsions

474
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 3: that you found yourself doing in your everyday life.

475
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 5: So I had some basic OCD compulsions like curling iron

476
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 5: and checking the curling iron a million times, you know,

477
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 5: you know, needing to have proof throughout the day that

478
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 5: I had unplugged it. So I'd make a little mark

479
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 5: with the prong so I could look at it later on.

480
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 5: But then I would think, wait, did I do the

481
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 5: prong and then replug in the curling ire. So why

482
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 5: would I those kind of garden variety ones. Those I

483
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 5: could manage, I mean not managed. But the ones that

484
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 5: killed me was when it was internal, and it was

485
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 5: confessing the sins, trying to sincerely confess sins, trying to

486
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 5: love the Lord your God with all of your heart

487
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 5: above all things. And the more I was required to

488
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 5: do that, the more I hated and resent it. Like love,

489
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 5: what does that even mean? The fact that that we

490
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 5: were instructed and commanded to love a thing that is

491
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 5: a spontaneous response from gratitude. To prescribe it with a

492
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 5: punishment attached to it is such a mind screw. It's

493
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 5: such a mind screw. So I was trying so hard

494
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 5: to love God.

495
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 6: I'm loving you, I love you, I swear trying to

496
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 6: love you, and I feel it.

497
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 5: And then I would have Oh, there were thoughts that

498
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 5: I would have that were just even now. It just

499
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 5: sent a shudder through me. Is I would have a

500
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 5: thought like God, we spend all of this time imagining

501
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 5: how hard it is for Jesus to be on the

502
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 5: cross for three days. This still is in my body.

503
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 5: I'm still like but I would think he was on

504
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 5: the cross for three days. People have unbelievable suffering that

505
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 5: goes on for people are in jails and they're orchard

506
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 5: people lose their child. You know, they're so much suffering.

507
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 5: We're how to feel bored for three days.

508
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 2: This is one of the only conversations I ever had

509
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 2: with my father where he was like saying good night

510
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: to me one night and I would stay up all

511
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: night six am thinking about how and how it was

512
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 2: inevitable and being scared. And I just said to him, like,

513
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: I don't think Jesus dying was that big of a deal,

514
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 2: Like I would have done the same thing if it

515
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: saved everybody. And I'm an asshole, so like I don't understand.

516
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: And he was like, that's so funny, and he said,

517
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: I totally understand what you mean, shocking, And he was like,

518
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 2: what was so hard about it was that Jesus was

519
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: had to be without God for those you know, days,

520
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: And I was.

521
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 7: Like, isn't he God?

522
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 2: I'm so confused And it's like I have math homework

523
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: to be doing, you know what I mean, Like I

524
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 2: have shit to do?

525
00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 7: Like what am I doing?

526
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 5: Oh my god? This makes me so happy?

527
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 6: To hear you say that, Yes, totally.

528
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 5: I got the exact same answer. Well, he went from

529
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 5: the height of eternal bliss into uh separation from himself God.

530
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 3: And that's worse than years of torture and isolation that

531
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 3: a human would experience.

532
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 5: Right, that's that's nothing. Three days and we're supposed to go.

533
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 7: And you know you're going to heaven forever after.

534
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 3: It, Like I would one wants to do it, we

535
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 3: would all do it.

536
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I love that. That's what just made me so happy. Listen,

537
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 5: three days I would do it, and I'm an.

538
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 3: Assholes, like a whole world for all eternity would be saved.

539
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:51,959
Speaker 7: You have to.

540
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: And even he didn't want to do it, he was

541
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 2: like do I have to? And that was like, yeah,

542
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: you have to, And I was like, okay, fying, I

543
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 2: totally get how But then those those I would get

544
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 2: really angry. How dare God send everybody I know to hell?

545
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 2: Because only the people in my religion are going to heaven?

546
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 2: I hate you God, And then this other side of

547
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 2: my brain would clamp down and be like, no, I

548
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: don't I love you God, don't see me to Hell.

549
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 7: I'm just kidding, Like, who is that?

550
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 2: Yeah?

551
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 5: Totally, totally. It's that vicious cycle of I'm indicted by

552
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 5: my sympathy really too with that, I mean I was

553
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 5: scared for myself obviously, but even like this idea of God,

554
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 5: how could you do this to everyone and then love them?

555
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 5: Love them, love.

556
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: Them like like as in like how could people be

557
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 3: not saved who are in other religions?

558
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 5: Yeah? That killed me.

559
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember asking about that as a kid too,

560
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 3: and I Mormon's had a better answer to it than I.

561
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 6: Think general Christian churches.

562
00:30:59,320 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 7: What's their an?

563
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 3: The answer was, well, we do baptisms for the dead

564
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 3: so they get the chance to be exposed to the

565
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 3: true Church in the afterlife. And that's why we do

566
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: baptisms for the dead for all people who've ever lived

567
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 3: that we can register.

568
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 5: You know that all of the answers and like that

569
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 5: one had to do with choice, they had to do

570
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 5: with well, you had the choice. But the deeper thing

571
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 5: that I think I intuited as a child is all

572
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 5: of our choices are based on our circumstances. We choose

573
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 5: things because of our genetics and our environment.

574
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 3: Again, how did you know this at such a young age?

575
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 6: This is crazy?

576
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 5: Well, I think I just like it's all like I

577
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 5: felt like, Oh, I remember watching a thing about Jeffrey

578
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 5: Dahmer because that was around where I grew up in Chicago.

579
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 5: That was Milwaukee. It was on the news a lot,

580
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 5: and they talked about he had been dropped on his

581
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,239
Speaker 5: head and I as a child, and there they were

582
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 5: talking about a number of high percentage of serial killers

583
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 5: have some head trauma as an infant, and it felt like, whoa,

584
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 5: so all of the choices that he made that could

585
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 5: have come So aren't we all a product of all

586
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 5: of these different things that happened to us? Are we

587
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 5: better than Jeffrey Dahmer? I wasn't dropped on my head?

588
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this is my current worldview. But for

589
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 3: a child within Christianity at a young age to understand

590
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: that is really impressive. I also have to ask you

591
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 3: about the T shirts because I was.

592
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 6: Absolutely losing my mind. Feel the force, Jesus, Jesus, what

593
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 6: was the sharp? Please explain?

594
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 5: Okay? The thing that it had two different thoughts, So

595
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 5: I think it was like the Christian bookstore, the Agape

596
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 5: bookstore was trying to make things hit. They were trying

597
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 5: to make things so it said and like these black

598
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 5: letters feel the Force, and then underneath it just said Jesus.

599
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 7: And it was a shirt.

600
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 5: It was a T shirt. And the idea was this

601
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 5: was how you could bring souls to Jesus by wearing

602
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,239
Speaker 5: something that indicated that you were a Christian and then

603
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 5: behaving so well that everyone would go, hmmm, that's interesting.

604
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 5: What is this Christianity thing? As if kids are responding

605
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 5: to some moral secrity that they're like, oh, she was

606
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 5: behaving in line with her morals. Give me some of that.

607
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 5: But I figured if I was doing that that I

608
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 5: didn't have to do the horrible direct witness, which was

609
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 5: where you went up directly to somebody and shared your faith,

610
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 5: often through a Bible verse that you cleverly would incorporate

611
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 5: into conversation. Like I remember on the on a plane, they're, oh,

612
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 5: if anytime you sat next to a stranger, that was

613
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 5: an opportunity to witness.

614
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 6: So oh no, not on a plane a five hour flight.

615
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 5: Oh God, imagine having having this girl next to you

616
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 5: and saying, do you have a best friend? And then

617
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 5: whatever they answered, I do. His name is Jesus, and

618
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 5: he never lets me down. I know best friends let

619
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 5: you down, but Jesus is there.

620
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 8: Forever.

621
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 3: So you were trying to avoid this direct witnessing because

622
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 3: it was obviously embarrassing the worst by choosing a T

623
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 3: shirt to do silent witnessing, which is also very embarrassing.

624
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 3: It was, and yes, my favorite thing though was that

625
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 3: first you were obsessing about whether you should or shouldn't

626
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 3: get it because it would like mean something about you

627
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 3: if you didn't get it out of fear of embarrassment.

628
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 5: Yep.

629
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 6: And then it led you to buy even more embarrassing

630
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 6: T shirts on purpose. Please explain.

631
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 5: Well, I felt a dinge of embarrassment and I was like,

632
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 5: oh shit, that means I'm embarrassed. I've got to prove

633
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 5: to God that I'm not embarrassed, so I'll get a

634
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 5: more embarrassing T shirt and my you know, I thought

635
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 5: it would prove to God if I just kept doing

636
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 5: increasing levels of horrible things to wear. There was what

637
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 5: was one, Oh you think Duran Duran Rocks tried Jesus.

638
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 5: It was like, it's like at the height of Duran

639
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 5: Duran when everyone had like one of the four guys

640
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 5: that they had a crush on.

641
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 2: Me, making the like connon is just so and it

642
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 2: sounds like it became like a compulsion, like if I

643
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 2: don't wear this, then I'm super fact. So the shirt

644
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 2: is not the coolest thing, but I absolutely have to

645
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 2: wear it because I don't want to wear it.

646
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 5: Exactly.

647
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 3: The bad feeling means I'm being faithful, right exactly, I

648
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 3: mean when in Barratt when like, it means you're righteous

649
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 3: to do a thing you don't want to do. It

650
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 3: just is a recipe for a bad time, a very

651
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 3: bad time that feels right.

652
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 5: And love God for it. At the end of it,

653
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 5: do the thing you don't want to do and then

654
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 5: love them for wanting you to do.

655
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 6: It, whatever that means.

656
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 2: And if you get mad, that's bad. So don't let

657
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 2: yourself get mad that he's making you do this.

658
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 6: Again, get an even more embarrassing T shirt.

659
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 5: Or start directly witnessing, right. But I eventually moved on

660
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 5: to pushing myself to do the direct witness because I'm like,

661
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 5: I'm I'm embarrassed to do it. God's going to see

662
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 5: that I'm embarrassed. I got to do it so I

663
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 5: would witness to my friends.

664
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 3: What's so funny is that you were in a way

665
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 3: doing like the Christian version of exposure therapy, right, because

666
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:34,879
Speaker 3: you're doing the thing you.

667
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 6: Don't want to do that you're.

668
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 3: Afraid of doing to sensitize yourself to it.

669
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 2: Except it's backwards, yeah yeah, making you more obsessive.

670
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 5: Right right, because exposure therapy. Well, wait, would exposure therapy

671
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 5: be not doing it and tolerating the discomfort?

672
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 6: No, it would, it would, But this does feel.

673
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 5: Like exposure therapy, so what is it?

674
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 3: It's tolerating well, because you're personal your actual underlying fear,

675
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 3: your core fee underneath that is like of going to hell,

676
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 3: or of like not being faithful, So you're acting on

677
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 3: a compulsion. But outwardly, oh, it could look like the

678
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 3: fear is of wearing the shirts, so you go toward

679
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 3: that feeling. But because your core fear is not actually

680
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 3: about the shirt, it's about right.

681
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 5: Right right, I'm with you.

682
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: Do you ever scroll through social media only to find

683
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 1: yourself bombarded by bad news, hot takes, mommy bloggers, influencers

684
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: and picture perfect families or professionals who are honored yet

685
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: also humbled to share more great news about their career.

686
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 1: It's hard to not get wrapped up in how everyone

687
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 1: else is doing. But what about you? How are you feeling,

688
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: Is there anything you'd like to change and what are

689
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: you doing to change it? At Cerebral, we believe making

690
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,720
Speaker 1: time for your mental health is key to your overall

691
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,479
Speaker 1: well being. That's why we make it easier than ever

692
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: to access therapy and doctor prescribed medication Taylor to work

693
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: for you, and the best part, Cerebral offers in network

694
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: care so you can focus on feeling better without worrying

695
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 1: about cost. Seventy two percent of people say they felt

696
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 1: better in just twelve weeks, So take the first step today.

697
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: Visit Cerebral dot com slash podcast to see how affordable

698
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: and accessible mental health care can be with insurance. Cerebral

699
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: make time for mine time.

700
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 3: You wrote about like a pastor who you kind of

701
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 3: voiced your doubts too, and he literally just told you

702
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 3: to not feel the way you feel and that God

703
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 3: sees and knows everything that we think. I can't imagine

704
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 3: that helped UH very much.

705
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 5: It was I remember it as being one of the

706
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 5: worst days of my life because it took some courage

707
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 5: to tell him that, UH. And he basically said that

708
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 5: my feelings were an indication that I was not saved.

709
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 5: That the Holy Spirit, if you are saved comes in

710
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 5: and assures you of your salvation. So it was basically

711
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 5: check your heart and then what in the world I

712
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 5: was supposed to do with that? Right?

713
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, having any doubt means you are inherently your fears

714
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 3: are true basically, Yeah, because you had.

715
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 5: Them, because I had them.

716
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 7: Yeah it sucks.

717
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, I still I still care, Like if you were

718
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,919
Speaker 5: to like anger that I hold up, you know, dry

719
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 5: to lego of. But that moment, I felt like he

720
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 5: really could have helped me. And I wish pastors across

721
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 5: the world would have more of an awareness even if

722
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 5: you're you know, obviously I think there are problems with

723
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 5: the theology itself, but even within the theology, if pastors

724
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 5: were aware of OCD, if they were aware of scrupulosity,

725
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 5: I mean, if they were aware of the horror of

726
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 5: their notion of hell. But yeah, I would. I wish

727
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 5: there was more education in the clergy.

728
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, how did it get to the point where you

729
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 3: decided that you needed to go into a facility to

730
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 3: be treated for your sinful thoughts?

731
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 5: It was such a cinematic moment when I think back

732
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 5: on it now. So I was in college, I had

733
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 5: started having sex with my boyfriend. But I justified it

734
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 5: in my mind by saying, we're married in God's eyes

735
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,280
Speaker 5: because we're planning on being together forever. But I still

736
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 5: felt the guilt. I pushed it down. I started I

737
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 5: had been drinking, which you know, it was like, you

738
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 5: can drink, don't do it, not too intoxication. And then

739
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 5: it was like, well, anyway, all my fears of what

740
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 5: I was doing, that I was straying, that I was backsliding,

741
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 5: that word backsliding. I pushed it down, and then I

742
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 5: went to see this art house movie, Akira Kira SAWA's Dreams.

743
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 5: It has nothing on the surface to do with the afterlife,

744
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:31,800
Speaker 5: but apparently he created the film as an evocation of

745
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 5: fantasies of the afterlife. Who would have known.

746
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 7: It's a girl unconscious, my unconscious.

747
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 5: It's so like when people say the power of art,

748
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 5: like boy, this dude nailed it. But it's a girl

749
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,240
Speaker 5: running through a garden. It's a boy under a cherry

750
00:42:55,280 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 5: blossom tree that becomes a spirit. It's all these surreal images.

751
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 5: And then it's these hikers walking in a snowstorm and

752
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 5: they gradually gets colder and colder, and they gradually freeze

753
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 5: to death. And I have this thought of did they

754
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 5: accept Jesus as their personal savior? And my body just

755
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 5: went a flame with anxiety, and I was like, I've backslid.

756
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,439
Speaker 5: I've backslid. I didn't ever or I never really meant

757
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 5: it in the first place. I never was saved. I'm

758
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 5: never saved. And I heard this was the cinematic part.

759
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 5: Is I heard a scream. I heard a scream in

760
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 5: the theater, and then I realized it was coming from

761
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 5: my own mouth, and I stumbled out of the theater

762
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 5: without my code. It was the middle of winter in Ithaca,

763
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 5: New York, and I was just out in this snow,

764
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 5: rather similar to the people that had just gotten frozen

765
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 5: in the snowstorm. And I can feel it in my

766
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 5: body now. Is. I was like, I knew it. I

767
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:04,439
Speaker 5: was like, my life's never going to be the same.

768
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 5: I'm like everything's changing. And I stopped having sex with

769
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 5: my boyfriend. I stopped drinking, I stopped swearing. I started

770
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 5: reading books that I wasn't I started doing Bible study.

771
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 5: I was like, I got to get back on the

772
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 5: right path. And I was like no, no, And I

773
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 5: was just like, you know, I couldn't need I was

774
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 5: vomiting and I was very very ill, and I called

775
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 5: my parents, who really came through for me. They found

776
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 5: I mean, there were problems with the facility that I

777
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 5: went to, but it's it's what I needed. I was like,

778
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 5: I need help, and I don't need once a week therapy.

779
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 5: I need help, and I can't go to a secular

780
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 5: facility because they'll be like, hell's not real, get over it.

781
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 5: I'm like, I need I need to work with it.

782
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 5: So they found me a place. It was in Wheaton, Illinois,

783
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 5: which is the greatest number of churches which is per

784
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 5: capita in the United States, and so they just have

785
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 5: tons of different programs and the place that I went to.

786
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 5: The thing that I am grateful for two for them

787
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 5: to this day is everybody there said you were saved,

788
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 5: you were okay. If they had not done that, I

789
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 5: don't know. I don't know what would have happened to me.

790
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 5: They at least gave me that they certainly didn't object

791
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 5: to the notion of it. I mean that was that

792
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 5: they never would have done that. But they medicated me,

793
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 5: which I needed. I was able to get my appetite back.

794
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 5: We talked about OCD. I learned about scrupulosity. I learned

795
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:55,439
Speaker 5: that Martin Luther suffered from it. And then I had

796
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 5: one therapist who is just really saved the day for

797
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 5: me and told me about Martin Luther's doctrine of pecaphor

798
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 5: de tay, which is the brave sin, and it is

799
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 5: sin bravely in order to know the forgiveness of God.

800
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 5: And he essentially told me this was exposure therapy exactly

801
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 5: as he said, the most important thing is your relationship

802
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 5: with God, and you are destroying it by being worried

803
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 5: about being punished or that you're not saved. You need

804
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 5: to do all of the sins that you want to

805
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 5: do and not worry about repercussions.

806
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 3: I want to know more about the period right before

807
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 3: this movie theater incident, like were you having panic attacks?

808
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 6: Like what was going on?

809
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 3: No, it just like something just got triggered by that

810
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 3: movie and that thought in there.

811
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 7: Yeah wow wow, Yeah.

812
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 5: I had panic attacks constantly after that before I think

813
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 5: I just had a I think there was an underlying

814
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 5: annxiety that was brewing because I was suppressing it. But no,

815
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 5: I was really happy. I was happy I had gotten

816
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 5: engaged to my boyfriend. I was you know, I was happy,

817
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 5: and then it broke just in a second. So a

818
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 5: strange situation for a nineteen year old college kid. I

819
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 5: was by far the youngest person there. I was grateful

820
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 5: to have some form of care. The medication did really help.

821
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 5: And then I had a best friend there was She

822
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 5: was my buddy just from day one, and she was

823
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 5: I think she was probably thirty five. She seems so

824
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 5: old at the time, such an adult to be friends

825
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 5: with a thirty five year old, but she was so

826
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:13,399
Speaker 5: kind to me. And later on in my journey, when

827
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 5: I started picturing God as a female, that was one

828
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 5: of the steps that I took along my way, I

829
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 5: would picture her as part of that image because her

830
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 5: attitude towards me and my suffering was it really it

831
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 5: really helped. It really helped me in the experience. I

832
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 5: think she facilitated facilitated my change in some ways.

833
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 3: You write about this amusing quotation marks therapist Bethany, who

834
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 3: kept pushing this narrative on, like she wouldn't listen to

835
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 3: anything you were saying, basically and decided you were a

836
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 3: boleamic and it just not. I mean, I wanted to

837
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 3: watch them movie of your book and hate her character

838
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 3: so much you know, can you just talk a little

839
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 3: bit about her role versus.

840
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 6: Like having a friend and like just the difference between.

841
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 5: Yeah. So, Bethany was the main therapist that I worked with,

842
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 5: and I felt like I could see her textbook in

843
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,399
Speaker 5: therapist school that she was working from when she talked

844
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 5: to me, Like I could almost see her eyes go

845
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 5: off and go on page twelve, young women who are

846
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 5: throwing up. But I kept telling her about my experience,

847
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 5: and she had decided what was going on with me.

848
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 5: Certainly a lot of nineteen year old young women are

849
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 5: worried about their body image issues, and I really didn't.

850
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 5: I was so skinny, I wasn't eating and I was

851
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 5: throwing up. And she felt that the main problem was

852
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 5: not the theology, but was body image issues. And it

853
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 5: just wasn't true.

854
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 2: The theology was what was making you throw up because

855
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 2: it was so stressful.

856
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 5: Yes, I just couldn't keep food in my stomach. But

857
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 5: the more that I said, look, I am not worried

858
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 5: about being fat, she was like, well, this seems to

859
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 5: be a really loaded topic for you. Denial, denial, denial.

860
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 5: You seem to be getting very upset, right, you know,

861
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 5: And she had a full length mirror that she brought

862
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,439
Speaker 5: in at one point, you know, she was like, tell

863
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 5: me what you see? It like, I don't want to

864
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 5: look in a mirror. There you go, you don't want

865
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:45,240
Speaker 5: to look in a mirror.

866
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:46,439
Speaker 6: Oh there?

867
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 5: And I'm like, I didn't.

868
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 3: But you look up confirmation bias in the dictionary just

869
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 3: a picture of her.

870
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 7: Yeah.

871
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 5: Yeah. So I kept and I just felt like she

872
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 5: didn't understand the would I would tell her even if

873
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 5: I am saved, I'm like, what about my boyfriend, what

874
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 5: about my fiance? What you know? And she would say, well,

875
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 5: we all have a choice, and I was, but the

876
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 5: choices that we make are conditioned by all these other things.

877
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 5: We can't just say he has a choice. That doesn't.

878
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 5: But so, what really helped me was this other doctor

879
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,439
Speaker 5: who told me about the notion of sin bravely because

880
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 5: he under he understood what I was saying, and he said, yes,

881
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 5: that is difficult. Now he didn't say, I mean I

882
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 5: wish he had gone as far as good. This is

883
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 5: a scare tactic from the Middle Ages that is crippling

884
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:58,320
Speaker 5: children all across the country. It's not true. It's not true,

885
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 5: young lady. You know, I wish she could have said

886
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,280
Speaker 5: something like that, but he he did a lot.

887
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 7: Better than Bethany.

888
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 5: Than Bethany.

889
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 3: There's a scene in your book of you in the

890
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 3: support group at this place, which, by the way, the

891
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 3: characters with what characters the.

892
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:17,760
Speaker 6: People in the group were.

893
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 3: But there's a man named Mickey who sort of like

894
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 3: feverishly shouts that all you have to do is accept

895
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 3: Jesus into your heart. And your response is that you've

896
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 3: done that ten thousand times and you just can't be

897
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 3: one hundred percent sure you got it right, which is

898
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 3: just like eat a nutshell. I'm like, yes, that is,

899
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 3: that is what OCD is.

900
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 5: That's what OCD is. That's and it's such fertile ground

901
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:41,839
Speaker 5: for OCD to grow in.

902
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 6: Yes, talk more about that.

903
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 5: I feel like probably whatever predisposition I have towards OCD,

904
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 5: in whatever environment I was raised in, it would have

905
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 5: come out in some way or another, is my guess.

906
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 5: But it would not have grown into the months stracity.

907
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 5: It would not have crippled my psyche for so many

908
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 5: years without this fundamentalist thinking, without the notion of hell,

909
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 5: like like once I did behavioral cognitive behavioral therapy with

910
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 5: the curling iron thing.

911
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 2: Yet you figure it out, Like seeing if your door

912
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 2: is locked forty thousand times a night is much different

913
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:32,240
Speaker 2: than wondering about eternity and your soul being on fire forever.

914
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 7: It's just two different things.

915
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:39,720
Speaker 3: Right, Accepting uncertainty about whether something was plugged in versus

916
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 3: accepting uncertainty about whether you are eternally damned and will

917
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 3: literally burn forever and never see your family again.

918
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 6: I mean, I'm not I don't.

919
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 3: I do not want to diminish how painful the first

920
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 3: kind is, because I know people who struggle with that,

921
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 3: and it's very, very painful.

922
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 6: They're afraid they're gonna kill everyone they love. But it's just.

923
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 3: There's no real response to someone who believes in this

924
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 3: notion of hell that you could go to for any

925
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:08,479
Speaker 3: like arbitrary sin.

926
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 5: Right, how do you habituate to that notion? How do

927
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 5: you go okay? Well, like I can go okay, I'd

928
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 5: leave the curling iron in the house, burns down, we

929
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 5: get a new house, or you know, anything is manageable,

930
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,720
Speaker 5: but Hell, by definition is unmanageable.

931
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 6: Right, There's no way out. Once you're there. You're there.

932
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 3: And that was one of the things, oh that bothered you, Right,

933
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 3: that God didn't extend sympathy to the thirsty rich man

934
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 3: in hell.

935
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:43,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like, nope, too late. Oh can I tell

936
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 5: you my favorite moment. This might be my favorite moment

937
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 5: in all of literature. I'm so glad I get to

938
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 5: say this. Okay, So that story, that Lazarus story that

939
00:54:55,239 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 5: I hate it. So if your listeners don't know it. Basically,

940
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 5: there's a rich man and there's a poor man, and

941
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 5: the rich man treats the poor man Lazareth, not Lazarus

942
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 5: that rose from the dead, but Lazareth treats him badly.

943
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 5: Then at the end, Lazareth goes to heaven. The rich

944
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 5: man is in hell. And at one point the rich

945
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 5: man goes to Lazareth, my tongue is burning. Can you

946
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 5: just give me a drop of your heavenly water from

947
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 5: above to soothe my burning self? And Lazareth ask God,

948
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 5: and God's like tell him no, no, It is the cruelest,

949
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 5: most horrible thing. So I was reading in my sin

950
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 5: bravely period after the hospital, I was reading literature that

951
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 5: couldn't be considered blasphemous, and I was reading The Last

952
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 5: Temptation of Christ and they have this scene and they

953
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 5: go up to the point in the story where Jesus

954
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 5: is telling the parable, and then it extends and it

955
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 5: says John, Jesus's favorite disciple, says, Lord, that cannot be

956
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:11,720
Speaker 5: the end of the story. Surely God's mercy spills over,

957
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 5: and Jesus says, ah, John, you among all the disciples knew, no,

958
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 5: the story cannot end there. And God said to Lazauth,

959
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 5: of course, welcome him into the gates and welcome them all.

960
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 5: And I just I just cried and cried this idea

961
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 5: that just the beginning was reported and only one disciple

962
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 5: was open hearted enough to go, No, that can't be

963
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 5: how it ends. Those retelling of those stories have real

964
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 5: power for me, because now when I think of that story,

965
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 5: I have that ending attached to it.

966
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 2: It's really odd because the two by twos, which I

967
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 2: grew up in, is very focused on how like if

968
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 2: you were to say I'm scared, I'm going to Hell,

969
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 2: they'd be like you probably are, most of us are, like,

970
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 2: everyone's going to Hell is essentially there the thing.

971
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 4: Really, Yeah, it's it's very hell based.

972
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 2: But the verses that you were kind of hand picking

973
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 2: and focusing on are things that they also handpicked and

974
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 2: would and would focus upon, so you were kind of

975
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 2: doing the same research.

976
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 7: They were the scariest shit. Scarious, Yeah, the scariest shit.

977
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 2: And I remember they would there was a really hard

978
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 2: influence on children, obey your parents, and that God knows

979
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 2: every hair that you have on your head. That was like,

980
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 2: and so when I wanted to talk to God, I

981
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 2: would pull a hair out of my head so that

982
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 2: my hair count change. Oh my God, that I would

983
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 2: have his attention, and I'd be like, now that I

984
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 2: have your attention, here's what I need to tell you.

985
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 6: The Maggan I didn't know that.

986
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 7: Wow.

987
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 2: Like a lot of the verses that you were focused on,

988
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 2: I was also focused on. But the difference is it

989
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 2: just feels like you were innately finding them on your

990
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 2: own with your I mean the Bible that you got,

991
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 2: this huge Bible with every single different thing. It's it's

992
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 2: horrible and sad, but it's also just so funny that

993
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 2: you were doing this.

994
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 5: You know. The verse that killed me, the hardest one

995
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 5: for me was the God would rather you be He

996
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 5: wants you to be hot for the Lord, rather you

997
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 5: be cold than lukewarm. If you were lukewarm, he will

998
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 5: spit you out of his mouth. Bikes, and of course

999
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 5: I felt lukewarm. I wasn't on fire, but I was trying.

1000
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 2: You know, it's like forcing yourself to be in love

1001
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 2: with someone, like, right, right, you're.

1002
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 5: Got a here in this, I'm in this marriage, loveless marriage.

1003
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:14,919
Speaker 2: Right.

1004
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 5: Isn't that enough? Yeah?

1005
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 2: You go from I'm assuming being in the dorms and

1006
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 2: being fun to this single bed room by yourself, away

1007
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 2: from all of your friends, with an entirely new group

1008
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 2: of people, with an entirely new focus on life. What

1009
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 2: I mean, what does that even feel like to be

1010
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 2: nineteen years old and to be addressing all of these issues.

1011
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 5: I felt like I it was like if everyone's in

1012
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 5: a race and then one person schluffs off to the side.

1013
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 5: I definitely felt like life was continuing for my I.

1014
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 5: You know, I've heard people say this about being physically sick.

1015
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 5: It's like you descend into a different world. There's the

1016
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 5: world of the well and the world of the unwell,

1017
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 5: and you can't remember a time when you were well,

1018
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 5: and you can't have met It just felt like I

1019
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 5: had slipped into a different sort of existence and I

1020
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 5: was desperately in love with my fiance, who continued on

1021
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 5: to do what we had been planning to do that summer,

1022
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 5: which was be ares in a dorm. We had gotten

1023
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 5: accepted and we were gonna do this together. And he

1024
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 5: continued on and he was dating people and he was

1025
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 5: kind of my It sucks that he was kind of

1026
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 5: my only big not my only, but he was my

1027
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 5: biggest emotional support. So I would still call him up crying,

1028
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 5: and you know, I would measure like is this working?

1029
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 5: Am I getting better? Am I still? And it's not

1030
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 5: like when I left, I was cured by any means,

1031
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 5: but I was eating and managing enough. I had some

1032
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 5: coping skills.

1033
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 6: How did you get officially diagnosed?

1034
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 5: So there was a there were a number of different

1035
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 5: people that worked there, but there was a psychiatrist that well,

1036
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 5: they did the is it the m mp I like

1037
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 5: a like a three hour kind of battery of tests

1038
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 5: that ask you various different questions and then she gave

1039
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 5: me an evaluation and the test results came back. You know, oddly,

1040
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 5: it's so funny. You know, those tests have weird questions

1041
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 5: like do you think Abraham Lincoln is a better man

1042
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 5: or George Washington? You know, it's these like we it's

1043
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 5: like weird things that they've just determined if you answer

1044
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 5: this to this question, you're more likely to have blah

1045
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:09,959
Speaker 5: blah blah blah. It's like they're indirect questions. Yeah, it's weird,

1046
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 5: so you don't quite know what they're testing. But I

1047
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 5: remember as I was doing it, being terrified that I

1048
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 5: was lying, you know, being like, do I really think

1049
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 5: that George Washington is a better? Like? Am I trust?

1050
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 5: You know, like being tripped up in the thing itself

1051
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 5: as I was.

1052
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 3: Doing Was it a relief when you learned that, like

1053
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 3: this is this was something that your brain was doing,

1054
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 3: Like did you believe that this was more of a

1055
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 3: product of you know, these this sort of obsessive thinking

1056
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 3: style thinking habit that you had instead of like, you know,

1057
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 3: being directly connected to the reality of sin.

1058
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 5: Yes, it was definitely helpful. That was the one really

1059
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 5: good thing that they did for me. They compared it

1060
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 5: to hand washing and that you know, you're never going

1061
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 5: to be sure that you've gotten every single last germ. Now,

1062
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 5: of course, my answer was, well, it's okay if you

1063
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 5: haven't gotten every single last germ if you're handwashing, it's

1064
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 5: not okay if you haven't gotten that prayer, right, right,

1065
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,439
Speaker 5: so it was not the perfect solution, but it did

1066
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 5: ameliorate my distress.

1067
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 2: It was one thing I wanted to say something about

1068
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 2: the medication that you eventually ended up going on, which

1069
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 2: I have as well, But you didn't want to take

1070
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 2: it at first because you were scared that you would

1071
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 2: become less afraid of Hell.

1072
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 7: Might be going there.

1073
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 2: So that's a double bind that you have in your

1074
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 2: brain where it's.

1075
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 7: Just like, no, I have to stay diligent.

1076
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 2: I don't want anything that calms me down, because then

1077
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 2: maybe I'll think that I'm not going to hell, and

1078
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 2: then I'll go to Hell. And your doctor was able

1079
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,439
Speaker 2: to make a very important point, which was like, well,

1080
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 2: the cortisol in your body is also making you make

1081
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 2: decisions that aren't in reality, so maybe kind of finding

1082
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 2: the balance would be a more realistic thought. Yep.

1083
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 5: It was a good argument and a fair one, and

1084
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 5: I it was my way in. Yeah. I was like, Okay,

1085
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 5: that's a distorting drug too, all.

1086
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 4: Right, of course, Yeah, yeah, it's true.

1087
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 5: It's true.

1088
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 3: Well, so we've said the wordscrupulosity a few times, and

1089
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 3: I just want to I'm going to read something from

1090
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 3: TREATIOCD dot com, which is a no from no CD.

1091
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:42,560
Speaker 7: I'm sure we've all been on it several times.

1092
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 6: What is scrupulosity OCD? Okay?

1093
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 3: If you're experiencing obsessions centered on morals, religious codes, and

1094
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 3: your ability to adhere to them, you may be dealing

1095
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,200
Speaker 3: with a subtype of OCD known as scrupulosity OCD or

1096
01:04:55,360 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 3: religious OCD. Scrupulosity OCD typically involves intrusive thoughts and compulsive

1097
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 3: behaviors focused on religious codes, spiritual beliefs, or questions of morality.

1098
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 3: For example, people with this OCD subtype often have recurring

1099
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 3: fears about sinning, making God angry, or otherwise going against

1100
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 3: their religious's rules. However, scrupulosity can also manifest us more

1101
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 3: general fears about ethics, proper behavior, responsibility for others, or

1102
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 3: other questions relating to values, like anxieties about veganism and environmentalism. Interestingly,

1103
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:30,880
Speaker 3: if you go down to the symptoms, it seems like

1104
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 3: this must be a recurring theme. Veganism as like a

1105
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 3: moral code, because there's there's like did I do something wrong?

1106
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,240
Speaker 3: Have I disappointed God? Am I committing a sin? If

1107
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 3: I'm a vegan? Am I a bad person for accidentally

1108
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 3: eating honey? Which totally makes sense. There's so many ways

1109
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 3: in which this can manifest itself, depending on what your

1110
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:54,360
Speaker 3: particular code of morality is, you know, like if you're

1111
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 3: anti racist and you have OCD and a racist thought

1112
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 3: pops into your head, like, I'm sure exactly the same

1113
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 3: thing can come up.

1114
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 6: But so that is sort of the realm that we

1115
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 6: are dealing with.

1116
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 3: And I don't want to say you got lucky, but like,

1117
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 3: your religion wasn't that extreme compared to many of the

1118
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 3: people we've had on this show, where the rules are

1119
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 3: so so strict and the you know, thought control is

1120
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 3: and life control is so so strict that it almost

1121
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 3: almost be impossible to not develop OCD in response.

1122
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 6: To paying it in it.

1123
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, but I do think it's more common

1124
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 3: than maybe any of us realized a few years ago,

1125
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 3: because the more we have these conversations, the more and

1126
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 3: more people we find will like have had obsessions of

1127
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:43,760
Speaker 3: these kind.

1128
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 5: Obsessions of these kind in terms of religion, are in

1129
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 5: terms of like the veganism that you're talking.

1130
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 3: About, or religion in terms of like people who are

1131
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 3: coming out of religions, but also in general, like cancel culture.

1132
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 3: OCD is a thing where you're like worried that you'll

1133
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 3: say something wrong or you you'll do something wrong and

1134
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:04,240
Speaker 3: yeah you'll get canceled or you know, like there's there's

1135
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 3: so many versions of it, but I in particular on

1136
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 3: this podcast, because we deal with religion, we see these

1137
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:10,520
Speaker 3: patterns kind of come.

1138
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 6: Up a lot.

1139
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 5: Yeah. I think it's so interesting the connection between particularly

1140
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 5: scrupulous I mean, I know scrupulosity is a type of OCD,

1141
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:23,880
Speaker 5: but the connection between fear of hell and and finding

1142
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:28,480
Speaker 5: some sort of pattern to manage it, whether it's directly

1143
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:32,960
Speaker 5: related to the thoughts or whether it's some like did

1144
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 5: you ever see the movie Jesus Camp You probably did?

1145
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 5: I did.

1146
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 2: Yes, And there's that kid who won't who like he's

1147
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:41,920
Speaker 2: like a preacher.

1148
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, there's that kid. But there's a

1149
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 5: moment when one of the girls who's kind of pushed

1150
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 5: to witness when she doesn't want to witness, goes outside

1151
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:55,920
Speaker 5: and she needs to get a certain number of snowflakes

1152
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 5: on her tongue before she'll go back inside. And it

1153
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 5: was such a I saw that and I was like, oh, there, there,

1154
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:05,560
Speaker 5: it blooms, there, it blooms.

1155
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 3: I mean, anytime you're told that someone is literally in

1156
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 3: your brain and can see every thought that you have,

1157
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 3: and you're a human being. So some of the thoughts

1158
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:16,440
Speaker 3: that pop into your brain that are just the natural

1159
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:21,640
Speaker 3: result of being a human whose brain works. Yeah, I

1160
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:23,640
Speaker 3: mean some of those thoughts. The first thought is not

1161
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 3: going to be your best thought. And then oh God

1162
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:30,640
Speaker 3: saw that, Oh yeah, God heard that. I got to

1163
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:32,559
Speaker 3: do something about that to let God know that that

1164
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 3: thought wasn't what I really think, you.

1165
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:40,000
Speaker 5: Know, totally, and then that kind of mind screw of like, well,

1166
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:41,680
Speaker 5: it's like with a T shirt thing with me. At

1167
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:45,440
Speaker 5: one point I was like, wait, does God know I'm embarrased?

1168
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:48,240
Speaker 5: Like he can see He's not just looking at the outside.

1169
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:53,479
Speaker 5: He's looking. He's gonna know I feel embarrassed. I'm you know,

1170
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:56,920
Speaker 5: there's there's all those different layers of how can you

1171
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:01,519
Speaker 5: trick God? Can you deceive God? Right, it's the don't

1172
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 5: think about pink elephants on the wall. As soon as

1173
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 5: you say that, they're gonna come stampeding in.

1174
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:10,680
Speaker 3: And and to add on to that, the metaphor that

1175
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 3: we always you know comes up in OCD a lot,

1176
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 3: and we've talked about this podcast, is when you have

1177
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 3: a beach ball in the ocean, and you try to

1178
01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 3: push the beach ball.

1179
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 6: Down into the water, it's just gonna.

1180
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:25,320
Speaker 3: Zoom right back up like there there really isn't That's

1181
01:09:25,360 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 3: not how it works. You can't get rid of a

1182
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:29,600
Speaker 3: thought by just like trying not to think about it,

1183
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 3: you know, it just makes it come back. More so

1184
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 3: if anyone's suffering from scrupulosity, just no, yeah, it's just

1185
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:36,639
Speaker 3: your brain braining.

1186
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 2: Do you guys think if you have a thought. There

1187
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 2: was a pair of twins where you went who were

1188
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:45,919
Speaker 2: like completely destroyed by the fact that they kept envisioning

1189
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:47,639
Speaker 2: themselves having sex with their mother.

1190
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:50,280
Speaker 7: Horrible, horrible thought.

1191
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 2: Do you think that they should have just seen that

1192
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 2: fantasy out to the end without guilt, and that would

1193
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:59,080
Speaker 2: have been kind of the beach ball up to the

1194
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:01,680
Speaker 2: thing and you Okay.

1195
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 5: I wonder I mean that was the problem with that facility. Well,

1196
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:12,479
Speaker 5: the slogan was psychiatry where the Bible comes first, which

1197
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:17,640
Speaker 5: is a problematic attitude to have. So I felt like

1198
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 5: some of the treatment, including the treatment of the twins,

1199
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:27,440
Speaker 5: had that moral overlay that could have caused more problems

1200
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:28,679
Speaker 5: than helped.

1201
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the thing is this, like the thing

1202
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:34,760
Speaker 3: with OCD is that it attaches onto the thing you

1203
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 3: value the most. So whatever that is, whatever you don't

1204
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:41,600
Speaker 3: want to happen the most, that's the thing that's going

1205
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 3: to make you think is going to happen. So yes,

1206
01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 3: if you don't want to do like weird stuff with

1207
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:51,439
Speaker 3: your mom and you think it would be horrible to

1208
01:10:51,479 --> 01:10:54,400
Speaker 3: do that, that's the first thing that your brain's going

1209
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:54,760
Speaker 3: to show.

1210
01:10:54,960 --> 01:11:00,400
Speaker 5: Yes. Yes, your brain braining is the perfect thing to say. Yes.

1211
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:04,200
Speaker 3: Apologies for andy blasphemy we may have committed. We were

1212
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:07,160
Speaker 3: more just talking about, you know, what our where our

1213
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 3: brains take us. But for someone if there is someone

1214
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:14,600
Speaker 3: who's currently struggling with this scrupulosity or religious anxiety or

1215
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:18,160
Speaker 3: moral OCD, like what would you would you have any

1216
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:18,800
Speaker 3: advice for them?

1217
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:22,719
Speaker 5: Maggie, Oh boy, that's a that's my my favorite question.

1218
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:29,680
Speaker 5: There were different phases to my recovery from scrupulosity. The

1219
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 5: first phase was within Christianity itself, so anybody suffering within Christianity.

1220
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:41,720
Speaker 5: What I did that was so helpful for me is

1221
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 5: to replace my image of a scary, terrifying God that

1222
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 5: seemed likely to send me to hell with that of

1223
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 5: a warm, compassionate image and I really worked to construct that.

1224
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 5: I mean, I listened to songs I listened to like

1225
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 5: the Indigo Girls Strange Fire. That's the first line, I

1226
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:11,639
Speaker 5: come to you with an offering of love. I come

1227
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 5: to you with a strange fire of love. It was

1228
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 5: written as a love song from God to his children.

1229
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:22,240
Speaker 5: And so I thought of that. I pictured women as God.

1230
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 5: I made artwork that would evoke to me a compassionate, warm, pink, rosy,

1231
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 5: enveloping image. Like I treated it like an art project,

1232
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:50,479
Speaker 5: so that I had a counter image. So anytime I

1233
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 5: was worried, you know, I was like I felt guilty.

1234
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:59,559
Speaker 5: I had an image that I had curated that would

1235
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 5: arise when I had the fear that did not replace

1236
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:10,680
Speaker 5: the horrible image, but stood side by side and within Christianity.

1237
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:16,200
Speaker 5: That was the best thing I did for myself exiting Christianity.

1238
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:19,599
Speaker 5: The best thing that I did for myself was read

1239
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 5: Joseph Campbell and realize how all of the different religions

1240
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:33,680
Speaker 5: are connected and how these images are symbols. And I

1241
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 5: really came to understand how the Bible came to be created,

1242
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:44,599
Speaker 5: how it's been used as a weapon of fear, and

1243
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 5: extricating myself completely from the literal thinking. Those were the

1244
01:13:51,080 --> 01:13:54,679
Speaker 5: two things that I did. Oh and meditate, Dear God,

1245
01:13:54,960 --> 01:14:00,160
Speaker 5: meditate that I don't know what would have happen and

1246
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:04,839
Speaker 5: to my life if I didn't have a very regular

1247
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:12,799
Speaker 5: meditation practice where I can continually come back to center

1248
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:15,880
Speaker 5: and see what my mind is doing and then go

1249
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:19,720
Speaker 5: all right, here we are here, we are doing its thing.

1250
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:20,759
Speaker 5: Here we are thought.

1251
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:23,920
Speaker 6: Oh, yeah, hello thought, goodbye thought.

1252
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:27,479
Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean it's it's the hardest thing in the

1253
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 5: world to do, and I still struggle with repetitious thoughts,

1254
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:33,600
Speaker 5: intrusive thoughts, but that's how I deal with it. That

1255
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:34,679
Speaker 5: was a long answer.

1256
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:36,360
Speaker 6: No, it's a great answer.

1257
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:40,639
Speaker 3: I love having a distinction between within Christianity and extiting

1258
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 3: Christianity because that's obviously the approach will had to be

1259
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:46,920
Speaker 3: very different and the treatment would be very different depending

1260
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:49,640
Speaker 3: on what someone's belief system is. And we always do

1261
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:54,280
Speaker 3: recommend mental health professionals who are specialized in what you

1262
01:14:54,320 --> 01:14:55,240
Speaker 3: are experiencing.

1263
01:14:55,520 --> 01:14:56,000
Speaker 6: I went to.

1264
01:14:57,439 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 3: Before I saw OCD therapy and God listeners. So sorry

1265
01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:06,960
Speaker 3: we talk about this so much, but before I saw

1266
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:09,040
Speaker 3: someone who was specialized, I went to just the general

1267
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:12,480
Speaker 3: therapist to kind of, you know, she just had anxiety

1268
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:15,360
Speaker 3: listed as like one of her specialties. And she was

1269
01:15:15,439 --> 01:15:19,639
Speaker 3: great for what she was. You know, she was great

1270
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 3: for certain things. I don't want to trash her. She

1271
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 3: was a very good therapist, but she didn't necessarily know

1272
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:28,200
Speaker 3: about this stuff. She told me that meditation could be helpful.

1273
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:31,519
Speaker 3: I was having like kind of NonStop panic about about

1274
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:34,360
Speaker 3: the idea of losing my mind, and she told me

1275
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:37,000
Speaker 3: meditation could be helpful. And I was like, I'm trying

1276
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 3: meditation and it's not working. And she was like, well,

1277
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:42,600
Speaker 3: you can't just start now, you have to have it ongoing.

1278
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:45,760
Speaker 3: And then my obsessive brain was like, oh, because I

1279
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:48,600
Speaker 3: didn't start meditating earlier, the meditation is not going to

1280
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:50,799
Speaker 3: work for me. And so now every time I meditate,

1281
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 3: it's gonna be you.

1282
01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:51,920
Speaker 6: Know what I mean.

1283
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:54,200
Speaker 3: And I would meditate and then I'd be like, how

1284
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:55,599
Speaker 3: do I feel now? How do I feel now? Did

1285
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:57,479
Speaker 3: the meditation get rid of it? Yeah?

1286
01:15:57,640 --> 01:15:59,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but.

1287
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 6: I'll just find something, It'll just find something. Yeah, yeah,

1288
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:05,080
Speaker 6: But I do agree. Mindfulness.

1289
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:08,840
Speaker 3: Mindfulness is a big part of the like sort of

1290
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:12,960
Speaker 3: gold standard treatment for scrupulosity and OCD. Now, like being

1291
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:14,479
Speaker 3: able to notice your thought and see it for what

1292
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:18,839
Speaker 3: it is instead of identifying with it so strongly. It's

1293
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:21,080
Speaker 3: it's yeah, it's just it's a skill we should all have,

1294
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:21,880
Speaker 3: It's what I'm saying.

1295
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:22,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, totally.

1296
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:27,360
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Well it sounds like you're free from

1297
01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:31,120
Speaker 2: this belief system or do you still have lingering.

1298
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:33,120
Speaker 4: Fears?

1299
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 5: Lingering but very wispy, Yeah, very wispy.

1300
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:42,200
Speaker 3: Tell us where people can find your book and or

1301
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:43,360
Speaker 3: are you on social media?

1302
01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:49,639
Speaker 5: Oh? Yes, so my website is maggiowauthor dot com. Books

1303
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:52,040
Speaker 5: on Amazon anyway where they sell books.

1304
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:53,920
Speaker 6: Awesome, thank you so much.

1305
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:58,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, wow, Maggie, thank you so much for getting unstuck

1306
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:02,840
Speaker 4: from under your gate and us and writing such an

1307
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:03,639
Speaker 4: amazing book.

1308
01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:07,840
Speaker 3: Indeed, and speaking of the book, there is an ending

1309
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:10,519
Speaker 3: to the book that is the reason it's called sin

1310
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 3: Bravely that we didn't actually get to talk about.

1311
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:15,679
Speaker 4: Yes, very strong third act ending.

1312
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:23,760
Speaker 2: She discovers through her psychiatrist, a philosopher who said something about, uh, like,

1313
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 2: if you're every human's gonna sin, so sin bravely, just

1314
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:31,120
Speaker 2: be bold, be bold about shit, be bold about shit.

1315
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:34,640
Speaker 3: Well, and in her case, like she was so terrified

1316
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:39,640
Speaker 3: of sinning because of how much she wanted not to.

1317
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:42,720
Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the most interesting things

1318
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:46,360
Speaker 3: about OCD to me, is like it latches onto the

1319
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 3: thing that you want or don't want the most, so

1320
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:51,880
Speaker 3: it's like whatever you value. So in her case, it

1321
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:54,840
Speaker 3: just was a demonstration of how much she valued being

1322
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:58,000
Speaker 3: righteous that she was so afraid of sinning. So for

1323
01:17:58,160 --> 01:18:02,200
Speaker 3: her to sin was like in defiance of like it

1324
01:18:02,240 --> 01:18:04,360
Speaker 3: was it's a really brave thing to do because she

1325
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:07,000
Speaker 3: values being righteous so much exactly.

1326
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:11,320
Speaker 4: So third act pinnacle of this book, which everybody should

1327
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:14,160
Speaker 4: read for themselves. But I won't give away too much,

1328
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:16,679
Speaker 4: but I will just tell you she ends up actually

1329
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:20,840
Speaker 4: going at the end of her kind of summer and

1330
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:27,400
Speaker 4: this institution to an amateur stripping night and doing a

1331
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:28,280
Speaker 4: little strip tease.

1332
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:32,400
Speaker 6: She lets it all loose, I mean just let at

1333
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:32,720
Speaker 6: all loose.

1334
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:36,320
Speaker 4: But she dances, yeah, and she and she takes all

1335
01:18:36,360 --> 01:18:38,000
Speaker 4: some clothes.

1336
01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 3: And this is, you know, an exposure for her, and

1337
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 3: this is a way to be brave and to kind

1338
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 3: of defy her own obsessive brain. And I think it's

1339
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 3: such a cool, like interesting resolution to this kind of

1340
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:54,960
Speaker 3: obsession about sin.

1341
01:18:55,360 --> 01:18:57,200
Speaker 4: I am obsessed with it. I loved it.

1342
01:18:57,240 --> 01:19:00,440
Speaker 2: Too, So yeah, read the book for the whole experience.

1343
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:03,360
Speaker 2: But uh, you know you walk away from a feeling,

1344
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:07,080
Speaker 2: feeling a nuisance of freedom. I did anyway, so hell yeah,

1345
01:19:07,479 --> 01:19:08,880
Speaker 2: can't say enough good about it.

1346
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:11,720
Speaker 3: The book is called Sin Bravely, a Memoir of Spiritual

1347
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 3: Disobedience by Maggie Brow.

1348
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:17,679
Speaker 2: Go check it out, Yes, please and go check us

1349
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:21,040
Speaker 2: out on Apple and radous five stars.

1350
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:23,800
Speaker 4: Leave us a glowing review, order a T shirt.

1351
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:25,960
Speaker 6: At wy Slash trust Me Merch.

1352
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:29,800
Speaker 4: And as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out

1353
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:30,439
Speaker 4: for red.

1354
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:33,920
Speaker 6: Flags, and never ever trust me.

1355
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 3: Hey Hey, trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby

1356
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:42,839
Speaker 3: Rapp and Steve Delamater.

1357
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:45,000
Speaker 2: The special thanks to Stacy Para and.

1358
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:47,280
Speaker 6: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1359
01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:50,400
Speaker 2: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1360
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 2: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1361
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:55,640
Speaker 2: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1362
01:19:55,840 --> 01:19:59,120
Speaker 3: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1363
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:02,480
Speaker 2: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Abraham

1364
01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:03,679
Speaker 2: Hits on Twitter.

1365
01:20:03,840 --> 01:20:06,160
Speaker 6: Remember to rate and review and spread the word