1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld. In his new book, Never 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: Forget Our People Were Always Free, a parable of American Healing, 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: Ben Jellous draws from his own life lived on America's 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: racial fault line to deliver a series of gripping and 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: lively parables that fall on each of us to reconcile, heal, 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: and work fearlessly to make America one nation. Told as 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: a series of parables, Never Forget Our People Were Always Free, 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: features intimate glimpses of political and faith leaders, including Jack Kemp, 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: Stacey Abrams, and the late Archbishop Desmond Tutu, here to 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: discuss his new book. I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: Ben Jealous. He is the former National INACP President and 12 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: current President of People for the American Way, professor of 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: the Practice at the University of Pennsylvania, and the New 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: York Times bestselling author of Reach Forty Black Men, and 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: Speak on Living, Leading and Succeeding. Ben, Welcome and thank 16 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: you for joining me on news World. Thank you for 17 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: having me on. And I have to share with the 18 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: audience that when we first chatted, you pointed out you 19 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: first met me when you were an intern for Leon Panetta, 20 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: and I was a junior congressman, so in a way, 21 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: our paths have crossed many times over the years. Yes, 22 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: many many times indeed. And yeah, I was a page 23 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: back when they still had pages in the US House 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: working for Leon. You were on your rise in the Congress. 25 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: It was something to watch, you know, even as a Democrat. 26 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: I admired your grit and I admired your ambition, and 27 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: it was clear that you were a force even when 28 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: you were a junior congressman. I always had the greatest 29 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: admiration for Leon. I can't imagine a better mentor than 30 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: Leon Panetta. Yeah, he was great. He had spotted me. 31 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: I been an organizer on Jesse Jackson's campaign and Monterey County, California, 32 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: where he was congressman, and he pulled me right in. 33 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: He saw something in me that maybe I didn't see 34 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: him myself. So I'm grateful to him for that. Well 35 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: in that gent, I mean, you've had a heck of 36 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: a career. But before we talk about your career, I 37 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: was struck by something about your background. You were born 38 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three in California. Your parents, Anne and Fred, 39 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: married in Washington, DC, spent some time living in Baltimore, 40 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: where your mother's family is from. But as I understand it, 41 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: your parents felt they had to leave Maryland because their 42 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: cross racial marriage was literally illegal at the time. Yeah, 43 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: so they matt Is teachers at Harlan Park Junior High. 44 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: Harlan Park is the poorest neighborhood of Baltimore's two hundred 45 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: and fifteen neighborhoods. Dad white from Maine, Mom black from 46 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 1: West Baltimore and before that, Southern Virginia, and they fell 47 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: in love. It was nineteen sixty six, and the law 48 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: at the time for bait interracial marriages, and in Maryland's case, 49 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: said that you couldn't return like if you got married 50 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: somewhere else, you couldn't return to the state without risking 51 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: prison time. The Loving family, who were friends of my 52 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: grandmother down in Virginia, had actually had the sheriff come 53 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: into their bedroom the middle of the night to prove 54 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: that they were breaking the law. The law at the 55 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: time prohibited cohabitating his man and wife across racial lines. 56 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: So my dad, literally speaker looked at my mom and said, 57 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: they already got Loving versus Virginia in the courts. We 58 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: don't need jealous versus Maryland two and so they left 59 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: the state. So, as I understand, your father's from an 60 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: old New England family, and he was disinherited by his 61 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: grandfather for marrying your mother. That's right. My father's brothers 62 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: stayed by him. My father's mother stayed by him. His 63 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: father was deceased and his grandfather and his uncle inspired 64 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: to disown and disinherit him. And as the eldest grandson, 65 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: he was supposed to come into a lot of wealth 66 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: on that side, our direct descendants. The founder of the 67 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: Sergeant Hardware fortune. That company was sold in the nineties 68 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: for sixteen billion dollars. Like I don't know how much 69 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: of it my father owned, but he had stock of them, 70 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: went right back to the founding of the company, had 71 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: the lion's share of the grandchildren. That was the price 72 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: he paid. He was disowned, He was disinherited from a 73 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: very large New England family, so he paid real prices 74 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: because of his love for your mother. That's exactly right. 75 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 1: And you know it's interesting. You know, my father is 76 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 1: the only one of his brothers to never be divorced. 77 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: He was betrothed at the time to a daughter of 78 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: a corporate titan. And he swears that my mom saved 79 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: his life, that he would have been in misery if 80 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:54,239 Speaker 1: he had married just for wealth and social position. Instead, 81 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: he chose to marry for love. And when I was born, 82 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: we were living in a four hundred square foot house. 83 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: They really had to rebuild, but he says it was 84 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: all worth it, and I can't help but believe him. 85 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: Let me stay with this from and I'm work by itself. 86 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: This is almost a novel. I mean, you have a 87 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: whole story before we even get to you. And I'm 88 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: curious growing up in that context, seeing both discrimination and 89 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: personal dedication in a sense of very romantic story, but 90 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: a story of the considerable cost attation. How did all 91 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: that shape you personally? It definitely made me a romantic 92 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: You know, my parents life is a very romantic story. 93 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: There's very little concerned with either one of them about 94 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: the material implications. And in the end it all ended okay. 95 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: My father's a bit like job in that respect. He 96 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: faced great trial, seemed to lose everything, and before the 97 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: end of the story, it's all come back to him. 98 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: It also really taught me. When people asked me to 99 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 1: describe Maine, I say, well, you know, Maine's kind of 100 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: like Georgia without black people, lots of piney woods, lots 101 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: of poverty. In the nineteen twenties, Georgia was number one 102 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: for ku Klux Klan concentration per capita, and Maine was 103 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: number two. I mean, there were things that you don't 104 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: even expect necessarily. Most folks historically survived making things with 105 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: their hands, producing things, farming, tree farming. My white grandmother 106 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: made sure I spent time in Maine every summer, even 107 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: though we had a lot of cousins around who didn't 108 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: even know that I existed. And I learned from my uncle, 109 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: who's a manager in a lumber yard, just about what 110 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: kind of working class life was like for a white 111 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: guy in Maine. And it looked a lot like working 112 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: class of life for my cousins in West Baltimore. And 113 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: so my childhood really underscored for me that we have 114 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: more in common than we don't, and we show courage 115 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: to come together, we often prosper more than we think 116 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: is possible, no matter what the price was in the beginning. 117 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: It's interesting because having been the child of two teachers, 118 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: you obviously grew up with a passion for learning and 119 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: a passion for education. I was looking at your background. 120 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: I mean a BA and political science from Columbia, which 121 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: is one of our great universities. A Rhodes Scholar giving 122 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: you a chance to be in Britain, a Master of 123 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: Science and comparative social research from Saint Anthony's College in Oxford. 124 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that's a pretty stunning level of achievement. 125 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah. And I've gone on to teach at 126 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: Princeton and Penn and you know, it's interesting. One thing 127 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: that Dave Chappelle and I have in common is on 128 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: the black side of the family. Are families have gone 129 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: to college since the end of slavery. And my father 130 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: his family, you know, the way he was raised. He 131 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: and his younger brother had different existence because my dad 132 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: was seventeen when his father, who was a doctor, died, 133 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: and his brother was eight, and his brother really grew 134 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: up working class from the age of nine when mom 135 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: had to go back to work as a nurse, whereas 136 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: my father had grown up with all the privileges of 137 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: having a nanny and going to the country club and 138 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: stuff that his brother really didn't know. And so my 139 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: father would say that he was raised to marry a debutante. 140 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: The only issue was that my mom was the wrong color. 141 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: But honestly, since I was born, there's been real economic 142 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: fragility and struggles against download mobility for the greater family 143 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: on both sides of that racial line, and that struggle, 144 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: you know, the struggle of a nation where we've shut 145 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: down sixty three thousand factories since and after it was passed, 146 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: the struggles of family members with drug addiction both sides, 147 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 1: with untimely deaths at the wrong end of a gun, 148 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: both sides. And what it really taught me is that 149 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: both in our triumphs and our ambitions and our struggles, 150 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: we have more in common than we don't you since 151 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: that whether you're a white and rural Mayne or you're 152 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: a black in West Baltimore, you actually have more commonality 153 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 1: in the struggles and the things you're dealing with than 154 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: you have differences. Absolutely, And what startled me in researching 155 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: the book is it's always been that way, and working folks, 156 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: when left to their own devices, figure that out pretty quickly. 157 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: The real startling moment in the book speaker, for me, 158 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: was when I figured out that my grandmother's grandfather, you know, 159 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: I've been told you it was a black statesman during reconstructions. Okay, 160 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: I understand that turned out he was actually in the 161 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: House of Delegates in Virginia just after reconstruction, but before 162 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: Jim Crown's transition period. And I was told that he 163 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: had co founded Virginia State University. He had helped secure them, 164 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: Diane or something for that. Okay, you know, public is stalk. 165 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 1: The black college makes sense, black legislator. What I I 166 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: wasn't told was that he was political partners with a 167 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: former Confederate general named William B. Mahone, that he and 168 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: Mahone had created it, well, Mahone had created he had 169 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: joined him in building a third party called the Readjusters, 170 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: that that party had taken over the Virginia government for 171 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: a few years and its entirety governor both senators because 172 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: the senators were appointed by the state legislature, and they 173 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: had taken over both houses. And in addition to creating 174 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: Virginia State the first public HBCU south of the Mason Dixon, 175 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: they radically expanded Virginia Tech and making it the working 176 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: prison's rival to the more patrician UVA. They abolished the 177 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: public whipping post they abolished the poll tax. The poor 178 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: white man, white men without land, had only had the 179 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: right to vote. It's like the eighteen forties, so own 180 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: about twenty years longer than black Metal, that we forget 181 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: that in our narrative about people getting access to the franchise. 182 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: And they also succeeded in their raised on detro What 183 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: had brought them together, speaker was the old plantation owning class, 184 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: saying that after the has Tilting Compromise, sought to re 185 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: exert their dominion over Virginia, saying that they could not 186 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: afford the free public schools and the Civil War debt. 187 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: And so the readjusters their name came from their demand 188 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: that the state readjust the terms on the Civil War 189 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: debts so they could maintain the free public schools. And 190 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: they did that. But imagine that we had been taught 191 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: that there was an epic, no matter how short, four 192 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: years or so, when former Confederate soldiers and freedmen got 193 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: together and took over state governments. Like the political imagination, 194 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: I believe the twenty century would have been very, very different. 195 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: Let alone that the poll tax was reimposed, not just 196 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: to disenfranchise eighty percent of blacks, as it Wooden Virginia, 197 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: but also fifty percent of whites, the poorer whites, the 198 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: non property owning whites, the ones who had had their 199 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: right to vote denied until just twenty years before the 200 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: freemen had Again. It's not to say same, same, or 201 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: everything's exactly identical, but it is to say there's a 202 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: lot of similarity, and that people who at the end 203 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: of the day decide their most important thing is the 204 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: future of their children, are able to find commonality across 205 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: old lines, even pretty quickly. This was, you know, less 206 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: than twenty years after the end of the Civil War, 207 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: so it's almost like you look for connections rather than divisions. Absolutely. 208 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,599 Speaker 1: General Powell got to me pretty early when I was 209 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: president in the NAACP. We had cross paths a couple 210 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: of times, but he really wanted to sit me down. 211 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: Jack kempted to Jack was the chairman of the Commission 212 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: on the Future of the NCP, appointed by Julian Bond, 213 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: and the rule that I learned from Jack was no surprises. 214 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: He said, Ben, you know, I trust you. I think 215 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,719 Speaker 1: we have a good relationship, good rapport promising one thing, 216 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: no surprises. I said, yes, Secretary, Absolutely, with General Powell. 217 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: His thing was, you're gonna be president in the Leap. Understand, 218 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: it's very easy to figure out what you disagree with 219 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: people about. The most important thing is to find the 220 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: one thing that you can agree on. Because we pass 221 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: laws issue by issue, you know, not one hundred issues 222 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: by a hundred issues. So if you can agree on 223 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: that one issue, you focus on that and you go 224 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: get it done. Honestly, Speaker, That's one time you and 225 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: I really worked together subjectively was when you think surprised 226 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people and wrote a letter endorsing the 227 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: leaps criminal justice reform plans. Both of us had been 228 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: influenced by Chuck Colson, and we had figured out, look, 229 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: we disagree on matters of the death pending, disagree on 230 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: it matters of privatization, but on basic things like people 231 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: who are addicted need rehab. You know, there was agreement. 232 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: And what people didn't know was that Nathan Deal supported 233 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: by the Tea Party, a true conservative, also an intellectual 234 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: and a man who thought broadly and tried to find solutions, 235 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: and Stacy Abrams his political opposite, but also an intellectual. 236 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: Weal a prison, thought broadly and tried to find solutions. 237 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: Had found agreement in Georgia that state that something more 238 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: like the fourteenth largest state shouldn't have the fourth largest 239 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: prison system. And I mean, the Georgia penal system is 240 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: notorious because that's how the state starts right as a 241 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: penal colony, and that they wanted to build a consensus 242 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: and the legislature to shrink the prison system and unnecessary incarceration, 243 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: shift people towards rehab, etc. Deal's son was a drug 244 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: court judge and was pushing for that over dinners. And 245 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: when I showed up, it was so great, speaker. I 246 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: don't know, I think I ever told you this, but 247 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: we had the NAACP report. It was like two hundred 248 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: fifty and we had a two page letter of endorsement 249 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: from you for our findings, and we took it to 250 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: every member of the Georgia Legislature. Our theory was that 251 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: most folks wouldn't read the report, but everybody would read 252 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: a two page letter from New Gangbridge because it was 253 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: so unexpected to be on top of the NAACP reporter. 254 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: And that worked in It helped Governor Deal and Stacey 255 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: and I all forged consensus in the Georgia legislature and 256 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: it saved the state a ton of money. And as 257 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: you know, there's untold families that have benefited because their 258 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: loved one, Scott the rehab that they needed. So thank 259 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: you for that. That's right. More than saving the money, 260 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: it saved a lot of lives. You know. It's interesting 261 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: because the governor Deal his son was a drug court judge, 262 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: and his son really educated him and said, look, this 263 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: system isn't working. You may remember we did a two 264 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: day conference on criminal justice reforman Deal came and spoke 265 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: at it, and I thought gave one of the best 266 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: speeches on why this was the right. I never thought 267 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: that Nathan had that deeper speech in him, and it 268 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: was a great speech. Absolutely to me. I go back 269 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: to that experience many times. I mean, we were able 270 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: to replicate it with Perry in Texas. But also it's 271 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: one of the things that gives me hope. One of 272 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: the great pains of my life is that so often 273 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: when there are common problems faced by struggling families, black 274 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: and white, urban, rural, and obviously a range of other 275 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: colors and you know groups, but like you and my family, 276 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: content really has been the South, and that has been 277 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: defined by divide between black and white. An examples that 278 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: between a rural and urban two that the full faith 279 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: of the problem is rarely visible at that the media, 280 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, stereotypes like poverty as a black thing, when 281 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: there's like eight million and change blacks in poverty, but 282 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: sixteen million and change whites in poverty. And the trouble 283 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: there is that when the public sees themselves reflected, their family, reflected, 284 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: their friends, their congregation reflected in a problem, people respond 285 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: to that. And when they don't, well, they respond to 286 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: that too. What really underscored that to me, made it 287 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: not academic, was one public opinion. And I discussed this, 288 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 1: and the book shifted so dramatically on opiate addiction, and 289 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: it was in response to southern Midwestern sheriffs, And honestly, 290 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: they've been burrowing a lot of people who they knew 291 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: from high school, who they knew from church, and yet 292 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: the problem was still being talked about simply as like 293 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: a criminal scourge and not as the addiction and health 294 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: crisis that it was. And so they simply started publishing 295 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: the photos of the corpses, and when the public saw 296 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: their community, the entire breadth of it reflected. Pretty soon 297 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: the conversation shifted, and you know, one of the things 298 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: that I've respected about you our years kind of criss crossing. 299 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: It's kind of three things. One, when you believe in something, 300 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: you have the courage to say it even if people 301 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: don't expect it, like giving us that letter that we 302 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: could use to build keen senses around the prints a report. 303 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: The second is a real value for education. That report said, look, 304 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: if states save money, they should prioritize sending it to 305 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: public universities. Grover Norquist wasn't willing to go there with us, 306 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: but you did, and our public universities have been the 307 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: fastest pathway out of poverty for families white and black forever. 308 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: And the other thing, sir, is I've always felt like 309 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: you're actually concerned about poverty. You know. Jack was like 310 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: that too. Not everybody is. Not every Democrat is. There's 311 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: a lot who aren't. Not every Republican is. But there 312 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: are those of us who I think understand that there, 313 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: but for the grace of God, go we and who 314 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: have families that are still connected enough to not have 315 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: completely broken down along lines of economic privilege. People still 316 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: love each other and know each other and know each 317 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: other's struggles, and even when I watched you as a 318 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: young Democratic page in the Congress, I always felt like 319 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: you were concerned about the lives of the poor and 320 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: opening up opportunity in this country, even if we had 321 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: different visions for how to do it. I don't always 322 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 1: feel that urgency, again from lots of leaders in both parties. 323 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 1: One of the projects I'm working on, the Love to 324 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: Someday get your help with, is the whole concept of 325 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: turning disabilities into capabilities and instead of looking at a 326 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: person has disabled, asking yourself, what is it? Given all 327 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: of the modern technology and all the modern knowledge, what 328 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: is it they're capable of to leave the fullest possible life. 329 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: And we have so many examples we don't even think of. 330 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: My son was diagnosed with autism, high functioning definitely on 331 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: the spectrum of autism, and what it prepared me for. 332 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: That speaker was working in a Silicon Valley where the 333 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: joke and the truth is, what do you call autism? 334 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: The Silicon Valley a competitive advantage. So many of these 335 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: programmers would not be the great programmers they are. And 336 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: I'm talking about people like Bill Gates. I suspect just 337 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: having met him unless they were somewhere on that spectrum 338 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: because one of the things that autism is a superpowerful 339 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: And I have this conversation with my son because he's like, oh, 340 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: why can't I be normal? I'm like, so you're telling 341 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: me you don't want to be a superhero because name 342 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: a normal superhero and of course because you guys autism. 343 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: He went and he researched incessantly until you found there 344 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: was one character in the sixties who was created simply 345 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: to be normal, like a sidekick. But it was like, 346 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: he wasn't a hero, He's a sick you know. He relented, 347 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: but the point was that you can't find a normal 348 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: quote unquote superhero that they all, you know, are a 349 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: little different. And in the Silicon Valley, when I told 350 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: my friends, look, my son was rated very high intelligence, 351 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: very high functioning asperts, and they were like, the only question, 352 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: Ben is whether he'll be a CEO or a programmer 353 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: or both. Because in the Valley it's the guys who 354 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: are on the spectrum who actually have that advantage. And 355 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: I think we need to do more of that. You know, 356 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: Harry Belafonte said to me once, I wouldn't have been 357 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: half the performer. I was if I wasn't severely dyslexic. Huh, 358 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: that's wild, and we need to create that narrative. It's 359 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: not to take anything away from any parent or any 360 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: child who's struggling with being different in a world where 361 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: we seem to lionize being the same too often, it's 362 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: just simply to have the other half of the conversation. 363 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: I want to do both a book and a movie 364 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: about people who have turned their disability into a capability 365 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: because I think it can really start a conversation that's 366 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: profoundly different. Oh absolutely, and honestly, I think we all 367 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: open up new possibilities ultimately for the country because when 368 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: you figure out how to unlock potential and possibility, like 369 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: we only get stronger. There's no good that comes from 370 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: denying people the opportunity to make their biggest contribution. Coolist 371 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: and I are doing a movie series right now we 372 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: call Journey to America where we're interviewing first generation legal 373 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: immigrants who've made a huge impact and who are examples 374 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: of American exceptionalism, although they came from all over the world. 375 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: Because I think this is the great opportunity melting pot, 376 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: and we've got to go back to that sense of 377 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: optimism that these are all great opportunity is for us, 378 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: not difficulties. I want you to chat just a little 379 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: bit about your grandmother, Mamie Todd Blam. I gather she 380 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 1: actually inspired the title of the book, never forget our 381 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: people were always free. Now tell us a little bit, 382 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 1: because she, by herself is an amazing story. Oh she is. 383 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: And this is a woman who has a girl. She's 384 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: twelve going on thirteen. Her father shows up with a model, 385 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: a Ford in pieces, the engines and pieces, and he says, 386 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: when you can put the engine together, I'll go to 387 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: the sheriff and get you a county only driving license 388 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: so you can take your siblings older and younger to school. 389 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: Because he saw in her somebody he would trust, even 390 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: though she wasn't the eldest child, to drive all the 391 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,360 Speaker 1: children to school. And so before her fourteenth thing, she's 392 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: put the entire engine back together and she's off driving 393 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: the old model with the rumble seat full of her 394 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: siblings to school. She was a relentless optimist. And I 395 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: confronted her on that. I would get to the title 396 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: of the book in a second, but I confronted her 397 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: speaker on her optimism, and she said, well, it's true. 398 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: I just got him back to the IVY League, and 399 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: the ivyle jades you very quickly. You're very jaded, and 400 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: you're really focused on being right. And she says, it's true. 401 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: Pessimists are right more often, but optimists win more often. 402 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: And in this life, you must decide what's important to 403 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: you and as to me, I'll take winning. And I 404 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: pushed her more and she said, let me explain to 405 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: you this way. Life is like a boxing match. The 406 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: pessimist throws in the towel by the fourth round because 407 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 1: for the first three they got in the round predicting 408 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: that they would get hit and they would be knocked down, 409 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: and by the third round, well that's a trend, so 410 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: why get in the fourth. But the optimist, my grandmother explains, 411 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: like Muhammad Ali and the Rumble in the Jungle, they 412 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: get in every round saying this might be the round 413 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 1: I don't get knocked down, and if they get knocked down, 414 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: they get on the next round thing, this might be 415 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,239 Speaker 1: the round I don't get knocked down, And when they 416 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: get in in the eleventh they realize that they've been 417 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: knocked down so many times that their opponent is getting 418 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 1: tired just from having the opportunity to knock them down 419 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: over and over, and then they realize that they can 420 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: just pull their energy together, they've got a shot in 421 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: the twelfth because if they're the only one standing in 422 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: the twelfth, they've just won. The whole thing doesn't matter 423 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: how many times they liked. And that was her attitude, 424 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: and it wasn't necessarily attitude of her siblings. And they 425 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: had grown up in a family knowing that they were 426 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: very lights and black folks, as having Virginia because of 427 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: a number of rapes on the plantation. But my grandmother, 428 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: and the title of the book, speaker is the thing 429 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: she would say, and it was clearly an article of faith. 430 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: The Bible tells us faith is the essence of things 431 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: hopeful and the evidence of things not seen, and this 432 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: was both. She would say, Never forget our people were 433 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: always free. When I was young, it made my brain hurt. 434 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: When I was a teenager, I could unt her and 435 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: just said, what are you talking about? Three grandparents born 436 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: into slavery, One of your sisters believes was a rapist 437 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: who was free. Grandma the rapist. And she just looked 438 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: at me like she pitied me. Well, when I really 439 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: got on fire about this book and started digging, I 440 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: knew she only had months left. She was one hundred 441 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: and three, and you knowing the family had lived past 442 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: one hundred and one, so she was on borrowed time 443 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: at that point. With the help of Henry Lewis Gates 444 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: Junior at Harvard, and a bunch of other historians, we 445 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: were able to figure out that this saying, never forget, 446 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: people were always free, had echoed down the family line. 447 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: It's another character in the book, a guy who insists 448 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: he's simply white, no ethnicity, no religion. A man, I'm 449 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: just like wonder bread. I'm white, and he was saying 450 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: a sound that echoed down his paternal line. Turned out 451 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: what he thought was a quote unquote a sound was 452 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: actually an old Irish curse. His therapist figured it out 453 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 1: for him using Google and putting it in phonetically. And 454 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: so then that struck me speaker that my grandmother said that, 455 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: she said it, her grandmother said it, her great grandmother 456 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,719 Speaker 1: said it. It was coming down her maternal line, and 457 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: we figured out that her maternal line started with a 458 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: woman who had been enslaved as a pirate she had 459 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: been captured when she was a pirate and forced into 460 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: slavery in Virginia, And well, what else would a pirate 461 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: woman say to the first children born into slavery in 462 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: the family. But never forget our people were always free. 463 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: Did your grandmother still alive? She passed away in August 464 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: just as I finished the manuscript. I was able to 465 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: read some of it to her, and I was able 466 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: to assure her that a lot of her stories would 467 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: be preserved. I was very worried the women in the South. 468 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: They had time to tell stories over and over and 469 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: over at grandmother's you know, great grandmothers did grandchild and 470 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: great grandchild and children. Life was slower even fifty years 471 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: ago when I was coming up, and now it's sped 472 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: up so much. I was afraid that I wouldn't be 473 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: able to convey the stories with which I had been 474 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: entrusted by my grandmother. I wove as many as I 475 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: could into this book, both as a gift to my children, 476 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: of course, but always as a gift to the world. 477 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: I mean my grandmother. Amongst her protegees was U S. 478 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: Senator Barbara mcculsky. She trained her as a social worker. 479 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: The only time I've ever seen Barbara mccussey cry in 480 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: public was talking about my grandmother and her influence. And 481 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: you know that mccolskey stuff. Yes, she is stuff. I 482 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: have to ask you. In addition to your relationship grandmother, 483 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: you found out that you are somehow related to Robert E. Lee. 484 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, what a shock that must have been. Yeah, 485 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny. It was like things often compound. 486 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: It wasn't that much of a shock that I figured 487 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 1: out that Dick Cheney and I were cousins through Salem, Massachusetts, 488 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: were both Willard descendants, because he and Barack Obama and 489 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: had already been announced were cousins. So I was like, oh, 490 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: maybe that's just a thing. You know, black folks and 491 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: the white parent you end up being cousins, said Dick Cheney. 492 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: But when I figured out that I was gusins the 493 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: Vice President Chenney and General Lee, I just had to 494 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: walk away from my computer. I didn't know what that meant. 495 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: You can see my COVID beard and my fairs. For years, 496 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: I had had a gotee style more like Malcolm X. 497 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: Now I had a beard that actually looks a little 498 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: bit like General Lees. Beard, and I was staring at 499 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: myself in the mirror and to having this out of 500 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: body experience as the former head of the NAP turns out, 501 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: essentially we're both the sentence of a man named Theodric 502 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: Bland and connected to Thomas Jefferson as a cousin. That 503 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: wink too, And what it really underscored for me was 504 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: just how much more connected we are to our fellow 505 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: Americans through bloodlines. You know, further back you go, the 506 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: more humanity looks like the trunk of a tree rather 507 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: than its branches. But even fairly recently, and there's other 508 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: civil rights leaders, you know. When John McCain came to 509 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: the NAACP convention, Merley Evers leaned over to him and said, 510 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: you know, my people come off the plantation in West Point, Mississippi. 511 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: He looked at this. That's right, John, you and I 512 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: are related. I grew up with those stories. You may 513 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: not have, but I did. And he just got quiet. 514 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: I mean, he was running for president. People are going 515 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: on like two hours asleep. You know better than me. 516 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: He wasn't really prepared. But who wants to disown Merily Evers? 517 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: Mearly Everson wants to say she's your cousin. Like cool. 518 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: You clearly know a great deal about your family's background, 519 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: about your genealogy. What advice do you have for other people? 520 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: How did you learn this and how can they go 521 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: about having a similar experience. Absolutely, the first thing is 522 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: to listen to your elders. Get them on video. My 523 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: grandmother told great stories. That was pretty easy. My grandfather 524 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: was taciturn. So I opened up an old family photo 525 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: album and just said who's this, who's this, who's this? 526 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: And then the stories came, just with those prompts of photos. 527 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: Please do that with your elders. It's invaluable. The next 528 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: thing on the white side of my family, I got 529 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: to tell you, ancestry dot Com was hugely helpful because 530 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: we know them the names of ancestors into like say 531 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, early eighteen hundred, seventeen hundreds, and once 532 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: you get back that far, but even if you can 533 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: just get back to the early nineteen hundreds, you'll tap 534 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: into multiple existing family trees and it can really accelerate 535 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: for those of us who families were recorded, say in 536 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,959 Speaker 1: Roman records, getting back millennia, and that's fascinating. On the 537 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: black side of the family. We get a dead end 538 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: around eighteen fifty for most of them as far as 539 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: the census, and that's where DNA really first showed up 540 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: in my life in a profound way. If you're black. 541 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: There are groups like African Ancestry dot com, Howard University 542 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,479 Speaker 1: professors who have mapped the DNA of hundreds of African 543 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: tribes and they can help you understand what tribes you 544 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: know your X chromosome or your Y chromosome they go 545 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: back to. That was powerful for me. But there's also 546 00:30:53,000 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 1: increasingly records of DNA ancestors, so we were able to 547 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: figure out, for example, just based on DNA, that we 548 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: descend from William Randolph, that we descend from Thomas Jefferson's grandmother, 549 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: and that we descend from every English and French king, 550 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: from Edward the First to Charlemagne's grandfather. That's wow, that's amazing. 551 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: I get a sense that you're inherently an optimist. I am. 552 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: So how do you see America's future? I think we're 553 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: headed towards a good place. The rebellions of the sixteen 554 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: hundreds in Virginia taught me a lot, both studying now 555 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: and studying when I was young, because they start off 556 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: as rebellions. This is Bacon's rebellion sixteen seventy six, but 557 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: also the rebellion in Gloucester in sixteen sixty three, which 558 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: was the first, and three hundred years to the year 559 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: before Martin with the King's march on Washington. And in 560 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: each case, in including several between, it was European and 561 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: dnsured servants and African slaves rising up together against the 562 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: king and that king's representatives in the colonies, who they 563 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: felt was treating them and their families unjustly, and the 564 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: military was used to suppress them, of course, and laws 565 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: were created to divide the two groups, and yet they 566 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: kept coming back together. The definition of race the sixteen 567 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: hundreds was as it had been since the eleven hundreds, 568 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: when the word raza first appears in Italian and then 569 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: spreads and becomes race in England, and then Jennier type 570 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: applied to things and triber nation applied to people, and 571 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: so you know, that's phrases like we Scots are our 572 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: mighty race, or we Irish are our mighty race. That's 573 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: the old notion of race. The modern definite notion of race, 574 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: which was a pseudoscientific theory that put white Anglo Saxons 575 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: like my father at the top and African Americans like 576 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: my mother negros at the bottom as subhuman doesn't show 577 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: up until the early seventeen hundreds, and when it does, 578 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: the effect is definitive, and it's actually captured in the 579 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: slave roles. Slave roles in the sixteen hundreds listed slaves 580 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,959 Speaker 1: as people from places and nations, as slave roles had 581 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: done for millennia before. But when we've talked about chattel 582 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: slavery being different, that shift happens in the seventeen hundreds, 583 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: when suddenly captured slaves are not referred to as people 584 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: from nations. They're referred to as a number of an animal, 585 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: a number of negroes, like a number of cattle or 586 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: a number of horses. And that profound dehumanization is something 587 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: that's created, this color cast system, something that's created in 588 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: the context of the American experiment. Anything we can do, 589 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: you know, we can undo, and it's already falling a 590 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: part in our communities and our congregations. I live in 591 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: a very conservative community in Maryland. Pasadena, Maryland, is referred 592 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: to by the Washington Post as statistically being the most 593 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: racist community in Maryland because apparently we have the highest 594 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 1: number of hate crimes. And even though two of those 595 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: reports and from incidents at my own residence, I know 596 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: most of my neighbors. We've got to know each other 597 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: pretty well. During COVID. If we didn't have a dog, 598 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: we bought a dog. We were all walking our dogs. 599 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: We're talking to each other, and even the ones who 600 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: voted for Trump. We have a lot of things in common, 601 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: you know, like we love boats, we shoot guns, we fish, 602 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: We love our children. We're trying to figure out how 603 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: to make the schools better. We want to believe that 604 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: the kids have a better economic future than we had. 605 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: And that's what our conversations are about. Are all those 606 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: things that we have in common. The YMCA locally opens 607 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: up its pool and there's a lot of people there 608 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: with conservative movement hats and T shirts and speaker a 609 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: lot of them to have black grandchildren. And you know 610 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: that hits me because my parents had to leave the 611 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: state because my mom was black. And I see these 612 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: very conservative folks. They want to tell you they voted 613 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: for Trump. Their hat tells you that, but they pour 614 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: endless love into their grandchildren every week at the YMCA, 615 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: and you see them doing that, and it's hard to 616 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: act like that doesn't matter. It does matter, It matters hugely. 617 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: I'm tired of living in a country where every Democrats 618 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: socialist and every Republicans are racist. It's just not true, 619 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: and our lives affirmed that every day, and yet we 620 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: go on social media or we end up on twenty 621 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 1: four hour news and that caricature is recurated on the 622 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: daily basis. It's not doing our country any good. We're 623 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: much better when we behave in politics the way that 624 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,439 Speaker 1: we do in our congregations or in our communities, walking 625 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: our dogs and talking about fishing last weekend, what is 626 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: your reaction to Marlan now having its first black governor. 627 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: The last five years, Speaker have been phenomenal in Maryland 628 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 1: as far as racial healing. Until two years ago, our 629 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: state song referred to Abraham Lincoln as a despot. The 630 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: children of Maryland sang a state song the referred to 631 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: the man who had ended slavery as a despot. That 632 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: was confusing, to say the least. Until four years ago, 633 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: when I ran the grounds of Maryland State House, what 634 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: had been the front door historically had a Gargoyle, if 635 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 1: you will. It was a statue erected to Chief Justice 636 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: Tawny of the US Supreme Court in celebration of his 637 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: most famous decision, in which he announced the black men 638 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: had no rights to the white man was bound to respect. 639 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: We got that taken down four years ago. Ironically, it 640 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: was the Republican governor Larry Hogan who agreed to take 641 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: it down. It was the Democratic president of the state Senate, 642 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: Mike Miller, who spent the next week trying to get 643 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: it put back up. I think it's also healing because 644 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: we had Democrats say that it was impossible because I 645 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: had lost, and Anthony Brown and lost, and Maryland will 646 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: never elect a black man. And again, you just don't 647 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: want a third of your state sons and daughters going 648 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,760 Speaker 1: to bid believing that their color prohibits them from anything. 649 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: I also did a little pride because Anthony Brown, who 650 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: had run against Hogan the first time and lost, I'd 651 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: run against Hogan the second time in loss. We had 652 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: both won our primaries, sat down with Westmore when he 653 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: was in fourth place and just thinking about putting his 654 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: campaign together, and we walked through everything that we had learned, 655 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: you know, to tell those stories about the way in 656 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 1: which men support each other. I think, regardless of our color, 657 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 1: the world always sees men kind of battling, and there 658 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: are times when men come together and they support each 659 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: other's dreams. And this was wonderful. But I look forward 660 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: to continue working with you. I'm glad I was occasionally helpful, 661 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: and I want you to know that my door is 662 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: opened as you have projects where you think I can 663 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: be useful. I admire greatly the way you have worked, 664 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: and I admire greatly the way you continue to learn 665 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: and you continue to grow. I mean, it's really important 666 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: of this country to have people who are willing to 667 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,919 Speaker 1: take the risk of being open and willing to take 668 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: the risk of having enough faith that they will try 669 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: to create a better future. Well, thank you, speaker, and 670 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: thank you for having me on talking about my book, 671 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: Never Forget Our People, Where I Was Free. Chapter one 672 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: starts with me training Dave Chappelle how to shoot. It's 673 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: a good read. I hope that your listeners will buy it. 674 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: Really pushing the country to see people's unique abilities and 675 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: not just their channel. Again, that's been a journey in 676 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: my own life. That's why I did not run for 677 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: governor of Maryland. This last time, I sond him been 678 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: diagnosed and I needed to figure out how to be 679 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: a better parent and helped him unlock his genius. And 680 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: so you know, as Colin Palace said to me a 681 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,439 Speaker 1: long time ago, he said, if you can find one 682 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: thing that you agree with somebody on, chances are you 683 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: will find two or three. We came here talking a 684 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: little bit about one time when we found something that 685 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 1: we agreed on, and we found a second and that 686 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 1: axcitts me, Well, we're gonna have never Forget Our People 687 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: Were Always Free a parable of American healing on our 688 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: show page and encourage folks. Sold and I'm going to 689 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: spread the word about this conversation. I think this is 690 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: the kind of conversation America needs, and I think that 691 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: it's really remarkable and I'm very grateful that you will 692 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: take the time to be with us. Thank you, sir, 693 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 1: and I feel the same way. Thank you to my 694 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 1: guest Ben Jealous. You can get a link to buy 695 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: his new book, Never Forget Our People Were Always Free. 696 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: All of American Healing on our show page at Newtsworld 697 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: dot com. News World is produced by Gingwish three sixty 698 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Garnsey Sloan, our producer 699 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: is Rebecca Howe, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 700 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special 701 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingwish three sixty. If you've 702 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,760 Speaker 1: been enjoying newts World, I hope you'll go to Apple 703 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 704 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 705 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for 706 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at Gingwish three sixty dot 707 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingwish. This is Newtsworld.