1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I want to throw 2 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: a question out there to you, what, in your estimation 3 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: is your worst nightmare come true? Now you know this, 4 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: That statement is so broad, I know, and it can 5 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: be populated with all manner of horror. Now I think 6 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: for me, I'm horribly claustrophobic, and that's something that has 7 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: happened as a result of, you know, my work that 8 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: I did for years and years. It's just kind of 9 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: a one of those little adjunct adjunct things that comes 10 00:00:54,960 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: along with PTSD. I couldn't bear the thought of it 11 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: being locked down, closed in, surrounded by a bunch of 12 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: people where I couldn't get out, not being able to breathe, panicked, 13 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: searching for an exit. Can you imagine waking up in 14 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: an environment that's not familiar to you, or perhaps you 15 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: feel danger, you're panicked. Today we're going to talk about 16 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: a case that, in my estimation, is going to be 17 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: the stuff of absolute nightmare for many of us. We're 18 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: going to talk about the death, the Resurrection and the 19 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: day death of Constance Glance. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 20 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: this is Bodybacks. Now we're past Resurrection Sunday, Dave so 21 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: loath these many weeks, you know, Easter has ended, you know, 22 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: and a great celebration something I look forward to at 23 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: my church, you know, every year. However, there are those 24 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: events involving death that I think that many of us 25 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: are fearful of. Many people feel very uncomfortable. I've had 26 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: people actually feel uncomfortable around me, and I'm pretty approachable guy, 27 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: because just merely by virtue of the fact that I'm 28 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 1: associated with death, as you know, I just my presence 29 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: makes people, you know, uncomfortable. And I've never threatened number 30 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: or anything like that. You know, they just they know 31 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: that I've been around that and that sort of thing. 32 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: But I'm thinking back, we were we were kind of 33 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: talking about this earlier and it kind of gave me 34 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: a chuckle about the the links, the links that folks 35 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: used to go to our ancestors to avoid being buried alive. 36 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: The term saved by the bell is part of that lore. 37 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: You're right, and that's not just a teeny bopper TV 38 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: show from the nineties. This is there's a reason they Yeah, 39 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: they used to actually have a bell that was adjacent 40 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: to a grave side and there would be a string 41 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: that went through a hole in the ground down into 42 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: the casket. So if the person who had been freshly buried, 43 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: let's say it that way, were to suddenly awaken, yep, 44 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: they could pull on the string and ring the bell. 45 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: And there were actually also see how can I describe 46 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: this other people, There were actually these horns that came 47 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: up out of the ground. When I say horns, they're 48 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:22,559 Speaker 1: like megaphones, old megaphones that yeah, that had a cup 49 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: that you would speak into and it would transmit the 50 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: sound through the bell that was above ground and people 51 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: could hear you. 52 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: I hope somebody would hear it. 53 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, no kidding. And I think that they used to 54 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: actually have a group of people that I don't know 55 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: the specific name, other than maybe grave watchers, that would 56 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: hang out for twenty four hours after burial in some circumstances, 57 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: just to guarantee that the person that had been buried 58 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: was in fact deceased again. And this goes back to 59 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: Tom's when you know, prior to embalming, right, all right, 60 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: Embalming is not something I know, we hear about it 61 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: with the ancient Egyptians and all that sort of thing. 62 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: It's not some thing that has been around forever and 63 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: ever in Western society. Okay, So the fact that today 64 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: we have a case of a lady who was declared 65 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: dead and turned out not to be dead. 66 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: Right, that's the name of wame right there. 67 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: And and she doesn't really come to in the funeral home, 68 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: but it was a funeral home worker that essentially saved 69 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,559 Speaker 1: her life at least for a very short space of time. 70 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 2: Well, all right, Constance Glance seventy four years old. She 71 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: was already in a nursing home, extended care, late care, 72 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it, but in a nursing home, 73 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: and they were she was on that that zone of 74 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 2: life where yeah, your family has already said their goodbyes, and. 75 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, end of life care, refresh today. 76 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 2: To go, thank you. That was always trying to come 77 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 2: up with end of life care. Well, the staff at 78 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: the nursing home, believe you know, the nurse goes into 79 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: check on her and doesn't appear to be breathing, can't 80 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 2: find a pulse, and calling the nurse practitioner who comes in, 81 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 2: I guess and yep, she's dead. Now. I don't know 82 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: if they got a mirror and put it up under 83 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: her nose or anything like that, but she was believed 84 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 2: to have passed away at nine four am. Because it's 85 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 2: in a nursing home in Nebraska, they don't call the coroner, 86 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: right because it's not a suspicious death. It's expected. Ye, 87 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: So rather than a corner being called in to declare 88 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 2: her dead, she is sent directly to the funeral home. Now, 89 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 2: once she's at the funeral home, somebody, a worker preparing 90 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 2: the funeral. I guess, man, it might not have been 91 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 2: for her. You know, they'rering a funeral generic term there, 92 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 2: realizes she's breathing. Now, I don't know if she burped, coughed. 93 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: I don't know what happened. But this worker thankfully realized 94 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 2: that this woman was breathing, she was still alive. And 95 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 2: this is a couple hours after the fact. We're not 96 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: talking minutes. We're talking a couple hours after she'd been 97 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: nicclared dead. The funeral home worker. I don't know what 98 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: happens after this, Joe. I mean, I don't know the process. 99 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: When you're in there in the funeral home. You know 100 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: there's several rooms in a funeral home. You know, there 101 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: are living quarters. They're the areas where they display the 102 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: deceased for visitation. There's usually a small casket room displaying 103 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: other caskets that you could purchase. At some funeral homes, 104 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: you have a kitchen area, and you have the embalming area. Yeah, 105 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 2: the prep room, prep room. Yeah, so I don't know, 106 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: I'm going to assume that she's in the prep room. 107 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: Yes, that would be where. 108 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: And they have actually somebody to put a dead body 109 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: in a funeral home. 110 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: Right exactly, and it has to be done, and it's 111 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: generally done in a very tasteful sense. I got a tag. 112 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: I got to make a confession to you here. 113 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 2: Uneral home confessions. Here we go, new TV show. 114 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,679 Speaker 1: It's a million dollar idea, isn't it. Funeral homes creep 115 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: me out. They always have, And even even in my world, 116 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: which I've spent a lot of time in funeral homes, 117 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: because I've actually had to go there after the fact 118 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: to conduct examinations on bodies before we actually say, okay, 119 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: we're going to go ahead and say you know, you 120 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: can proceed with the preparation of the body. And of 121 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: course I've been there unfortunately many times for people that 122 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: I've known and loved that have passed away. But there's 123 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: something about the the the artificial nature of it, the 124 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: manufactured ambiance, if you will, the creepy lighting, the music, 125 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: the power point, all that stuff, even the way the 126 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: place smells. It's just it's not. It's not someplace that 127 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: I look forward to going to at any point in time, 128 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: even as a forensic scientist. And I've been to many 129 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: prep rooms. I've been. I've been to prep rooms over 130 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: the years where bodies are in various states of the prep, 131 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: pre embalming and post embalming, and certainly in the midst 132 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: of the embalming. You know, part of me was fascinated 133 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: by that because I wouldn't see how the process worked, 134 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: and I have many times, but I cannot even begin 135 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: to imagine this worker who is there, who is getting ready. 136 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: Just keep in mind that is getting ready to essentially 137 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: profuse the body with embalming fluid, because that's the next 138 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: step you have to do that. And what do they notice, Well, 139 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: they notice that the chest is apparently rising and falling, 140 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: that constance chest is apparently rising and falling, giving an 141 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: indication that she still has life. And you talk about 142 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: being in an odd space here you are you normally 143 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: are taking care of individuals mortal remains, but I can 144 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 1: and again I'm super imposing my thoughts upon this. They 145 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: started CPR on her day, and while they were doing CPR, 146 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: they were I can't even begin to imagine what was 147 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: going through their minds at this moment. Tom and they 148 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: had said that, you know that they started CPR, and 149 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, well, if she's breathing, if you notice she 150 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: was breathing, why are you doing CPR. But they did 151 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: call nine to eleven, and nine to eleven came to 152 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: the facility. So that's that's kind of a weird bit 153 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: there for me to try they do CPR, I have 154 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: no idea. And you know, because if she if the 155 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: chest is rising and falling, that's an indication that life 156 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: is still in dwelling. 157 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 2: So maybe maybe maybe she saw the breathing and then 158 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 2: realized that she stopped breathing. 159 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: And she may have, but you know, when you have people. Now, 160 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: let's keep in mind Constance was in a nursing home, 161 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: but she's also been identified as a hospice patient. Okay, 162 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: Now you can have a whole wing of a nursing 163 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: facility that is devoted to hospice care, and these patients 164 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: are completely different than the rest of the population. Okay, 165 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: that in dwells a facility, and these facilities sometimes can 166 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: be massive, all right, So they're providing what is referred 167 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: to as palliative care. Palliative care is you're making the 168 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: individual comfortable in this in the last the final weeks 169 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: or days, maybe months, I don't it's hard to say, 170 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: leading toward their end. And it's called palliative care. 171 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: I always thought that just meant that you were giving 172 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 2: them friendly care. But I guess you are being a 173 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: pal you know. 174 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, palliative Yeah, it has kind of a different Yeah, 175 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 1: it kind of does, but it does have a different 176 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: connotation here. And here's the thing you mentioned the corner 177 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: And I want to get back to this, yeah very quickly, 178 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: because I think that many folks assume that every time 179 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: someone dies, the corner is is notified or corner slash 180 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: medical examiner, and that is not the case. The law, 181 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: dependent upon the state that you're in has a have 182 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: have pretty pretty specific rules about when when the medical 183 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: legal authorities are notified. But almost across the board, if 184 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: you have an attended death with a with a care 185 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 1: provider present or approximating the body, they've got a history 186 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: of some kind of illness that is either terminal or 187 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: could be a terminal leading up to a terminal event, 188 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: and it can be documented. Sometimes those cases are not reportable, 189 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: and taking another step with hospice hospice death, those are 190 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: never reportable to the coroner, and so they they do 191 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: fly beneath the radar many times. So there wouldn't be 192 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: a need if someone passes away in a hospital, I 193 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: mean in a in a hospice situation, there wouldn't be 194 00:13:53,280 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: a need to contact us. And you never know, first off, 195 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: what has brought the person to the nursing home facility 196 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 1: to begin with. Now, maybe they sustained trauma many many 197 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: years ago. Can I tell you a quick story that's 198 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating. I actually did an autopsy on a 199 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: guy that went into a nursing facility. His first nursing 200 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: facility that we could make a note of was I 201 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: think in nineteen forty eight. I did his autopsy. I 202 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: assisted in his autopsy in nineteen eighty nine, and he 203 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: had come in paralyzed below the waist. Now you say, well, 204 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: all the way back in the forties, why in the 205 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: world would you do an autopsy on somebody like that 206 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: you want to hear something really amazing. This young man 207 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: had participated in the Battle of the Bulge. Oh wow, 208 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: he sustained a rifle wound to his ab demen And 209 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: I actually, I'm actually the person that went into his 210 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: spine with striker saw and recovered that projectile. And did 211 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,479 Speaker 1: you know that after all of those years, the pathologists 212 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: that I was working with, they ruled his manner of 213 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: death as a homicide. And I'll never forget this. This 214 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: stands out in my mind so much to parts of 215 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: this the fact that when we removed that projectile, I 216 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: was holding in my hand literally a piece of history, 217 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: because this projectile had last been touched and loaded into 218 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: the weapon of probably some young German soldier in the 219 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: Wehrmat that was at the Battle of the Bulge and 220 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: had fired that rifle and struck this equally young soldier 221 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: in the abdomen and started this chain of events that 222 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: led to his death decades later. And I held that 223 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: project on mine and I'll never forget. It was like 224 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: one of those moments where you're touching history, but the 225 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: kind of have cause and effect there, and that they 226 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: did report that death to us, and we wanted to 227 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: examine him because they told us he still has a 228 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: bullet in him. But wow, many times and I guess 229 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: he could have gone on to hospice maybe, but in 230 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: most states, when you have somebody that is in hospice care, 231 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: those are not going to be reportable to the coroner. 232 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: And in Constance case, she had they had diagnosed her. 233 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: If she is on hospice, which we are discovering here, 234 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: then she would be in kind of a terminal phase 235 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: of her life where she's moving toward death. But how 236 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: in the world are you going to do the assessment 237 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: that facilitates you and your facility releasing her body to 238 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: a funeral home where she's going to be prepared to 239 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: be buried. You know, they say that if you see 240 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: a cardinal in your yard, that's a visitation, that's a 241 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: messenger sent by God, perhaps even to give an indication 242 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: that you have a loved one. 243 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 2: That's some of the red birds, right, the red birds. Yeah, 244 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 2: I was thinking, because don't Catholics have cardinals And. 245 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's it's an ecclesiastical ecclesiastical post and it's 246 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: a high ranking priest, the College of Cardinals. But those 247 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: are nouns, aren't they. We have something in death investigation 248 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: that is actually an adjective, and so it means for us, 249 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: we have what are referred to DAVE as the cardinal 250 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: the cardinal signs of death, and it's one of the 251 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: little lists that we go down to assess deceased individuals. 252 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: When you begin to look at subjects at the scene, 253 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: the first thing you need to do is try to 254 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: validate your presence at to see why am I here? 255 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: You're calling me out because you have determined that this 256 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: individual is dead. You might be saying they're dead, but 257 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: let me tell you something. I'm going to prove to 258 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: myself that they are in fact deceased, no longer existing 259 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: in this realm. 260 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 2: Have you ever called out to a dead body that 261 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 2: wasn't dead? 262 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: Not in me? Okay, not me. However, However, when I 263 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: was in Atlanta, and this is going to blow you away, 264 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: one of my colleagues was, and I'll give you the quick, 265 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: quick thumbnail. Here this colleague of mine who was a 266 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: really old death investigator, even he was much older at 267 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: this period of time. And this guy was highly experienced. 268 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: He had been a homicide detective in Atlanta, and he 269 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: gets called out to what is the police are reporting 270 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 1: as a suicide, and it is a gentleman that has 271 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: killed himself in a bathtub by slashing his wrist. And 272 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: the bathtub is full of warm water. It's up to 273 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: the very top and it is tinged with red blood. 274 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: You know, guy's knew in a bathtub and his hands 275 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: are resting on the sides of the tub and is 276 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: both of the wrist are slit. And this investigator with 277 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: our office went over, walked over to the body and 278 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: starts taking This is back in the days when we 279 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: still did polaroid snapshots and thirty five milimeters. We'd also 280 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: do polaroids for quick reference. This is before digital cameras, 281 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: and so he's snapping polaroid photographs. And he had brought 282 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: along a physician that was in training with him to 283 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: become a forensic pathologist. This individual walked over, had their 284 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: gloves on, knelt next to the tub, and when they 285 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: went to reach for the body to do their examination, 286 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,239 Speaker 1: the dead guy's hand went up in the air like 287 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: this at the wrist. It bent at the wrist and 288 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: went up and this individual turned to the investigator and said, 289 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: this guy's alive. Now, this is in a bloody bathtub. Now, 290 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: this is a monumental failure on the part of the paramedics, 291 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 1: to a lesser degree, the police, because the police are 292 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: not really there to assess death. The empts had come out, 293 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: and you know what we determined at that point in 294 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: time was that because of the supersaturation that was surrounding 295 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: the body, they and you know what they say about assume, 296 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: they assumed that they were dead, but they didn't want 297 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 1: to put their hands in the bloody water. Isn't that something? Well, 298 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: the investigator whom I had mentioned was a foreign police officer. 299 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: He goes outside of the apartment and there's a cop 300 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: standing post at the door, and he starts, as we say, 301 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: down in the South, he starts giving him down in 302 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: the country. He's yelling and screaming at this cop. He's 303 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: up in his face like a Marine Corps DI and 304 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,719 Speaker 1: he's saying, get the wagon back out here immediately. I 305 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: want you to know, in that particular case, the wagon 306 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: did roll back out. The ambulance did. It wasn't the 307 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: same crew. They're probably hiding under a rock. They pulled 308 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: that guy out of the water day. They saved that 309 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: guy's life. Wow, they stitched him up transfused him, put 310 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: him on a psych unit. He got he got healthy, Wow, 311 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: and he was He went on with his life. I 312 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: don't know whatever became of him, but those things do happen, 313 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: and and and for us, we're looking for the cardinal 314 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: signs of death and forensics. Let me run some of 315 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: these down for you, and I want people to understand this. 316 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: This is one of the things we do as death investigators, 317 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: try to obsess and this was not done with constants. 318 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: I don't think we look for. First off, is there 319 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: a palpable pulse? You know, you can check the curate 320 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 1: it in the neck, you can check the radial pulse, 321 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: and the wrist you can check the brachial pulse, which 322 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: is uh. If you stick your finger between your biceph 323 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: on the the medial aspect of it and press in, 324 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: you can actually feel very You can feel Paul stronger 325 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: there below your bicep, on the inner portion of your bicep, 326 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: much better than you can the radial pulse in your wrist. 327 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: You know that would show people holding the wrist, you 328 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: can feel it a lot better at the break deal. 329 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: You can even do ephemeral palpitation. That's a bit born difficult. 330 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: So you're looking for a pulse or an absence thereof 331 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 1: you're also looking for absence of respiration, and so how 332 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: do you do that. Well, if you don't have a 333 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: stethoscope handy where you can hear breast sounds, you can 334 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: actually get down to the level of the body so 335 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: that you're even with their chest. They're in your eye 336 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: line and you can look and see if the chest 337 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: is rising and falling. Now you had mentioned a mirror earlier. 338 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: There are some people that you know, fogging the mirror 339 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: is what it's called. Do they fog the mirror. I've 340 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 1: never come across anybody that assesses that way. I'm assuming 341 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: that it has been done at some point in time. 342 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: Another thing you look for is non responsiveness to what 343 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: we refer to as painful stimuli. And if you've ever 344 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: seen somebody it's in us that is passed out, uh, 345 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: and you're around the e mts that are assessing them, 346 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: you'll see them do a sternal rub. That's where they 347 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: take their knuckles and it's it's very painful. They'll press 348 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: down on the stern them and rub vigorously and you're 349 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: going to wake up. Relative to that, you can even 350 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: with gloved hands, you can even touch the eyeball, and 351 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: there's there's a reflex that occurs in that that you're 352 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: going to respond where the person will blink. From an 353 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: evidentiary standpoint, it's not really a good idea. And of 354 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: course we look for things like obvious signs of of 355 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: of decomposition. We also look for, you know, if they've 356 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: got a foul odor and skin is changing color, you know, 357 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 1: you can pretty much say that the person's probably passed 358 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: on to their reward at that at that possible at 359 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: that time. And we also look for things in the immediate, 360 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: you know, like a rigidity with rick or mortis and 361 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: all those sorts of things post mortal avidity. But you know, 362 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: just the part of the rising and following in the chest, 363 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: the absence of a heartbeat, and non responsiveness to painful stimuli. 364 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: Those are just three in the immediate that you could do. Now, 365 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: there are people that are in such a state and 366 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: they're in hospice care where they're kind of in that lingering, 367 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: that kind of twilight zone, if you will, where they're 368 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: almost comatose, and you might not be able to fully 369 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: appreciate the status of the individual at that particular time, 370 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: and that can be problematic, I would assume because the 371 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: individual is not in fact demonstrating kind of life signs. 372 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 1: But with constance rolled she rolled out of the door 373 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: on a gurney. Now keep in mind, on a gurney, 374 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: Dave that's either placed into a van or a hearse. 375 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,719 Speaker 1: I can't believe this, and carted off to the local 376 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: funeral home and where they're going to prep her. 377 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 2: That's a lot of people involved in her train. Oh 378 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: my gosh, nobody taken a close look. Because she's at 379 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 2: a nursing home. It's end of life care. They call us, 380 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 2: she's passed away, and you go there and gently respectfully. 381 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 2: I would just you know again that assume you're basing 382 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 2: your activity on those that preceded you by calling and saying, 383 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 2: we have an elderly woman who has passed away. No 384 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 2: need to call the coroner. Just take her to you know, 385 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 2: Mulberry funeral home or no, it's Mulberry nursing home is 386 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 2: where she was. Take her to the funeral home. Now, 387 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 2: they were very specific that she passed away. They declared 388 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: her at nine four am. My first thought on this, 389 00:26:53,960 --> 00:27:00,120 Speaker 2: Joe was Andy Griffith really yep. Andy Griffith passed away 390 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 2: on the outer banks of North Carolina and he died 391 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 2: at about seven thirty that morning, and they held his 392 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 2: burial within five hours. It was part of his end 393 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 2: of life plan. He was not embalmed. And I don't 394 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 2: believe there is a state of the union that actually 395 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 2: requires embalming, but in this particular case, he was not embalmed. 396 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 2: He was having breakfast with his wife at seven fifteen, 397 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 2: seven thirty. He's dead before lunch. He's in the ground. 398 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 2: And my thought was this, what if he was just 399 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: lightly breathing, you know, and anyway, so that was like 400 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 2: again my thought was I hope he was really dead. 401 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. Isn't that a horrifying thought? You know, 402 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: because one of the things that you think that is 403 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: conjured up in our minds and we hear this and 404 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: you've seen it in movies before. As a matter of fact, 405 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: I think in the original Brendan Fraser Mummy movie, they 406 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 1: showed the interior of a sarcophagus and there were scratch 407 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: marks on the interior of the sarcophagus, and so that 408 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: generates a kind of this unease, if you will, And yeah, exactly, 409 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: and you really wonder if this has in fact happened before. 410 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: But we have to say that you never know what's 411 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: waiting around the corner in any death investigation. It doesn't 412 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: necessarily have to be some big trauma event, because I 413 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: know from my experience surprises await us around every corner. 414 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:14,719 Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question, David, what do you think? 415 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: What do you think? My biggest fear was when I 416 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: was working in. 417 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 3: The morgue, Oh, dead person waking up? Yeah, to a 418 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 3: certain degree, my biggest fear was that. And I actually 419 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 3: had this as a nightmare, a reoccurrent nightmare, and I 420 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 3: think that it was because just maybe the mathematical probability 421 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 3: had entered. 422 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: Into my brain I had. I had an absolute terror 423 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: of holding a number twenty two scalpel in my hand, 424 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: which is generally what I did autopsies with, which is 425 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: a blade size. 426 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 2: By the way, I was going to ask you, because 427 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 2: you say number twenty two, you may. 428 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: Say they come in you know, they come in a 429 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: variety of sizes. But anyway, it had the most utility 430 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: from my purpose. And when I make that initial incision, 431 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: which is the why incision, it starts at, you know, 432 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: the apex of the shoulders. You know that it would 433 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: not be blood that would come out of the incision 434 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: in a seeping kind of way. It would be an 435 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: arterial spray. I always had that that dream, that reoccurrent dream. 436 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: And you know, you you hear all of these stories 437 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: day because you know, our history is populated by these things. 438 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it really is. They don't happen with great 439 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: frequency where somebody does in fact wake up in the morgue. 440 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: But there are those cases out there. I think you'd 441 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: mentioned there's one just in the past year. 442 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 2: Out there three, they've been three in US nursing homes 443 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,479 Speaker 2: in the last year, and in one case, the nursing 444 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 2: home was fined ten thousand dollars and it was in 445 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 2: Iowa where it granted. Now, this was a woman who 446 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 2: was an end of life care. She had dementia and 447 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 2: was suffering from Alzheimer's. But she was only sixty six 448 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 2: years old, Joe, and she was determined to be dead. 449 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 2: And in this particular case, staff members at the Glen 450 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 2: Oaks Alzheimer's Special Care Center reported that she had passed 451 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: away about six am. As I mentioned, she had early 452 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 2: onset dementia and anxiety and depression. She had a number 453 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: of issues for being in this hospice care, and a 454 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 2: staff member reported that she could no longer feel the 455 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 2: woman's pulse and alerted. In this case Iowa, a nurse 456 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: practitioner can declare make a death declaration, and it's different 457 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 2: in every status who actually can do this And Iowa 458 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 2: law allows nurses, physicians, assistants addition to doctors to declare 459 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 2: a patient dead. In this case, it was a nurse 460 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 2: practitioner who declared the woman dead about ninety minutes Joe. 461 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: Ninety minutes after she was declared dead, she was taken 462 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 2: to the funeral home and crematorium in a zipped body bag. 463 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 2: In a zipped body bag. When she arrives at the 464 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 2: funeral home, they unzipped her and somebody saw her chest 465 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 2: was moving and she gasped for air. 466 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: I bet she did. 467 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 2: She was in a body bag, Joe. Yeah, oh my goodness. 468 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: Yes, it's terrifying stuff. And they called nine one one. Yeah. Well, 469 00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: I'm glad they did because you know, and in constance case, 470 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: you know, full reveal here she didn't make it through 471 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: the day. No, you know, she she was transported to 472 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: the hospital and she's fragile, to begin with. Obviously, if 473 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: she's in hospice care and palliative care and so she 474 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: I don't know that she mercifully ever regained conscious consciousness. 475 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: But right now I think my thoughts kind of moved 476 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: towards the family because you know, they're having to they're 477 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: having to process all of this coming in, you know, 478 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: because okay, so let's just say, and this is the 479 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: way it would happen, she passes away at at this 480 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: nursing home. As soon as she she passes away, there's 481 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: a mechanism that goes into place. The family is notified. Now, 482 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: as you said, if she's in hospice status, the family, 483 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,320 Speaker 1: this is not unexpected, right, So can you imagine this scenario. 484 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: You're the family, You get the call that Constance has 485 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 1: passed on. Okay, well, in hospice care what's mandated. And 486 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: in any nursing home, many times they will have a 487 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 1: designated funeral home that's already in your chart. Okay, So 488 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: just so that you understand that, the family would have said, okay, 489 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: well go ahead, call the funeral home. We have it 490 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: listed down there. They call the funeral home. Funeral home 491 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: comes and picks up, picks up constance. Okay, now we 492 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: don't know how her body was prepped, because in certain 493 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: hospitals and facilities, what they'll do is they'll use what's 494 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: called a morgpack. A morkpack is not a body bag. 495 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 1: It is a plastic wrapping that goes around the body 496 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: and it has strings with it where you can tie 497 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: the body off. It's tied around the neck, and it's 498 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: tied around the waist, it's tied around the feet, and 499 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: it almost looks like kite string that comes in this thing, 500 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: and they'll be placed onto a gurney and they will 501 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: be covered. Have you ever seen those coverings that funeral 502 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,879 Speaker 1: homes use. They're kind of they look like carpet. They're 503 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: furry looking and in grand calligraphy, embroidery, calligraphy along the side, 504 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,439 Speaker 1: it'll have the logo of the funeral home on this thing, 505 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: and they're pushing. You see it at crime scenes many 506 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 1: times people that use contractors like this, they'll be pushing 507 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: the body. So that's the way this would have gone down. 508 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,320 Speaker 1: And then they because most nursing home facilities don't have morgus, 509 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: so they the funeral home literally comes to the room, 510 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: removes the body off. Of the bed, places the body 511 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: onto the gurney, covers it in this this thing that 512 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: identifies the funeral home, goes down the hallway, places the 513 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 1: body in the back of a hearse and it could 514 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,760 Speaker 1: be a van, and then they drive off. But then 515 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: then there's. 516 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 2: More to the story. 517 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: But wait, there's more. The family has to now deal 518 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: with a phone call. And where did this phone call 519 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: come from? Does it come from the workers at the 520 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: funeral home. Probably not, they're going to get a funeral. 521 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: The family would then get a phone call from the 522 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 1: local emergency room, perhaps the charged nurse, and they're calling 523 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: to say, hey, look, this is so and so with 524 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: you know, the local general hospital. Your loved one is here. 525 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: We're trying to save her life. And the family's thinking, 526 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, well wait we wait, we were told 527 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 1: she was dead. Yeah, and now why are you calling 528 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,320 Speaker 1: us you and so that's the kind of thing. 529 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 2: That that would be just devastating it. 530 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: Is, and that's you know, this brings us back to 531 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: the cardinal sience of death, you know, with constance in 532 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: this particular case, the fact that the level of attention 533 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: that is actually required in something like this is not 534 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: intended to perhaps and it's not the hospice staff that 535 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: pays the price for it, because yeah, they're they're providing care. 536 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: But I doubt that you know, anybody at the nursing 537 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: home actually sat around and celebrated holidays with Constance over 538 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: the entirety of her life, or laughed with her, or 539 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: cried with her, or celebrated life with her. It's the 540 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: family at the end of the day that where this 541 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: really comes into play, and it's I think that it 542 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: is a cautionary tale and I'm so sorry that the 543 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 1: family went through this. But again, as we always say, uh, 544 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: you know, the devil is in fact in the details, 545 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: and particularly when it comes to a death investigation, it's 546 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: important to remember never ever assume anything. I'm Joseph Scott 547 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is bodybacks