WEBVTT - Real Talk: The Transition to Motherhood 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.396 Pushkin. 0:00:30.396 --> 0:00:33.276 I had had such a grueling day with my son, 0:00:34.156 --> 0:00:37.956 and I was exhausted, and when I sat down for 0:00:37.996 --> 0:00:40.636 the first time all day, having just put him to bed, 0:00:41.556 --> 0:00:47.156 what came almost flooding in was the sensation of longing 0:00:48.116 --> 0:00:51.636 for the life I had before he was born. And 0:00:51.676 --> 0:00:56.716 then I very quickly had an experience of shame about that, 0:00:57.876 --> 0:01:02.236 Like what kind of person misses the life she had 0:01:02.316 --> 0:01:05.956 before she had a baby that she loved so much. 0:01:07.156 --> 0:01:10.716 Molly Millwood is a clinical psychology who counsels new moms. 0:01:11.236 --> 0:01:14.156 She's also a mom herself, and she's made it her 0:01:14.196 --> 0:01:17.596 mission to say the quiet part out loud, to share 0:01:17.756 --> 0:01:21.876 just how challenging and profound the transition to motherhood can be. 0:01:22.596 --> 0:01:25.756 I think motherhood sort of ushers in for most women, 0:01:25.876 --> 0:01:33.796 this chapter of reckoning, of confronting illusions about ourselves that 0:01:33.836 --> 0:01:37.436 we sometimes didn't even know we had that we are 0:01:37.516 --> 0:01:40.596 then forced to let go of, and that process of 0:01:40.676 --> 0:01:44.516 letting go can be very messy and very painful. 0:01:48.796 --> 0:01:52.996 On today's episode, Real Talk about the transition to motherhood, 0:01:55.196 --> 0:01:58.076 I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:01:58.396 --> 0:02:00.596 a show about who we are and who we become 0:02:00.916 --> 0:02:15.356 In the face of a big change. Mollie's a psychology 0:02:15.396 --> 0:02:18.516 professor and a therapist who works mostly with new mothers 0:02:18.516 --> 0:02:22.116 and parents. She wrote a stunningly honest book about the 0:02:22.156 --> 0:02:26.836 experience of entering motherhood. It's called To Have and to Hold, Motherhood, 0:02:26.916 --> 0:02:30.636 Marriage and the Modern Dilemma. I recommended it to many 0:02:30.676 --> 0:02:33.836 of my friends who've recently become moms. One of my 0:02:33.876 --> 0:02:37.036 friends in particular, is struggling with mom guilt and other 0:02:37.116 --> 0:02:40.796 disorienting feelings. She said she felt like Mollie had written 0:02:40.836 --> 0:02:43.676 the book just for her. The book is full of 0:02:43.716 --> 0:02:46.836 insights from Mollie's work as a therapist and an academic, 0:02:47.596 --> 0:02:50.756 but she also shares her own challenges as a mom, 0:02:51.036 --> 0:02:55.956 struggles she simply wasn't expecting because before having kids, she says, 0:02:55.956 --> 0:02:57.876 she was a very even, keel person. 0:02:58.436 --> 0:03:01.356 I even got the nickname as an adolescent Molly feel 0:03:01.396 --> 0:03:04.556 Good because I just seem to be generally feeling good 0:03:05.676 --> 0:03:07.836 and making other people feel good, not in a sort 0:03:07.876 --> 0:03:12.996 of loud, overly exuberant or cheerful way, but just quietly 0:03:13.196 --> 0:03:17.796 calm and content. And because of that, I think I 0:03:17.876 --> 0:03:21.716 had this idea that I was going to have a 0:03:21.756 --> 0:03:26.156 deeper well of patience than the average person, and that 0:03:26.156 --> 0:03:30.596 that sort of emotional stability that characterized me my whole 0:03:30.596 --> 0:03:34.236 life until then would not only continue in motherhood, but 0:03:34.276 --> 0:03:36.436 would also serve me very well as a mother and 0:03:36.476 --> 0:03:37.996 serve my children well. 0:03:38.796 --> 0:03:42.076 Right in your book, you write about how after you 0:03:42.116 --> 0:03:44.796 had your first child, you had to let go of 0:03:44.836 --> 0:03:48.516 illusions that you had about yourself and what you thought 0:03:48.596 --> 0:03:49.596 mothering would look like. 0:03:50.276 --> 0:03:51.756 Can you tell me what you meant by that. 0:03:52.356 --> 0:03:56.116 I think the illusion that I had to let go 0:03:56.236 --> 0:04:01.636 of was that emotional calm and balance was some kind 0:04:01.676 --> 0:04:06.556 of ultra healthy zen state that I was fortunate to occupy, 0:04:07.196 --> 0:04:11.436 when instead what it was was that I really wasn't 0:04:11.476 --> 0:04:15.476 fully in touch with the whole array of emotion that 0:04:15.556 --> 0:04:20.956 my existence rings, that every human's existence springs, until in 0:04:21.076 --> 0:04:26.396 motherhood I was bursting at the seams with those emotions. 0:04:26.756 --> 0:04:30.756 I would say that there were emotions within me in 0:04:30.796 --> 0:04:36.876 the realm of love and ecstasy and bliss because of 0:04:36.916 --> 0:04:40.996 this new human being that I treasured so deeply. And 0:04:41.796 --> 0:04:43.996 it was fun, you know. I was having more fun 0:04:44.036 --> 0:04:48.396 than I'd ever had before engaging with my baby, and 0:04:48.716 --> 0:04:50.076 in all these things that we would put in the 0:04:50.076 --> 0:04:53.876 category of good stuff, I felt all of those much 0:04:53.916 --> 0:04:57.596 more strongly than I ever had before. And then on 0:04:57.636 --> 0:05:06.316 the other side, there were episodes of intense anger, maybe 0:05:06.356 --> 0:05:10.996 borderline rage, not that we'rever acted upon. When my baby 0:05:11.036 --> 0:05:15.836 wouldn't stop crying, I would have these layers of despair. 0:05:16.196 --> 0:05:18.436 You know, it hurts so much for your baby to 0:05:18.516 --> 0:05:21.556 be crying and to be unable to console them, like 0:05:21.676 --> 0:05:24.796 why will my baby not stop crying, and in a 0:05:24.836 --> 0:05:29.156 sense blaming him, this innocent little baby, which makes no 0:05:29.236 --> 0:05:33.196 logical sense. But I know that that's such a common experience. 0:05:33.236 --> 0:05:35.516 And I wrote in the book about resentment, you know 0:05:35.516 --> 0:05:38.796 that sometimes moms even resent their babies, which is sort 0:05:38.796 --> 0:05:42.396 of a more insidious emotion than just anger. Sure, it 0:05:42.556 --> 0:05:45.196 bruis for a while and kind of culminates over time. 0:05:46.276 --> 0:05:50.036 So I think motherhood just sort of puts us on 0:05:50.156 --> 0:05:54.916 the outer bounds of these emotions that we experience in 0:05:54.996 --> 0:05:56.796 the rest of life. Most of the time, they're not 0:05:56.836 --> 0:05:59.756 totally foreign or alien to us. They're just so much 0:05:59.756 --> 0:06:01.996 more intense in the context of motherhood. 0:06:02.836 --> 0:06:06.196 Yeah, you write in the book that at one point 0:06:06.636 --> 0:06:10.676 your husband felt like he couldn't even recognize you. I mean, 0:06:10.716 --> 0:06:12.556 what was it like to run up against that in 0:06:12.596 --> 0:06:16.476 the throes of new motherhood where you're already feeling overwhelmed, 0:06:16.516 --> 0:06:21.356 and then suddenly you find yourself unrecognizable, not just to 0:06:21.396 --> 0:06:24.236 your husband, but what I'm hearing is to yourself. 0:06:25.196 --> 0:06:28.596 Yes, he said I was hostile and cold. It was 0:06:28.676 --> 0:06:33.436 really really hard to get that feedback, and at the 0:06:33.436 --> 0:06:37.116 same time it resonated. It's like he was speaking a 0:06:37.156 --> 0:06:41.996 truth that neither one of us could deny. He was 0:06:42.076 --> 0:06:44.636 the one who was just a little more ready to 0:06:44.716 --> 0:06:47.756 put it into words. I don't love the words he chose. 0:06:47.796 --> 0:06:50.196 I think there are probably more gentle ways that he 0:06:50.236 --> 0:06:54.036 could have given me that feedback, but it was such 0:06:54.076 --> 0:06:56.956 a pivotal moment because it meant that I couldn't keep 0:06:56.996 --> 0:06:58.916 denying there. 0:06:58.796 --> 0:07:00.316 Was a problem. 0:07:00.356 --> 0:07:02.196 But here's where I want to be really careful to 0:07:02.276 --> 0:07:06.076 say that it's not as if I was clinically depressed, 0:07:06.276 --> 0:07:08.076 and it's not as if I look back on that 0:07:08.156 --> 0:07:13.356 period of my early motherhood and remember myself being deeply unhappy. 0:07:13.516 --> 0:07:14.716 I absolutely was not. 0:07:15.716 --> 0:07:18.196 I think it's very powerful that you mentioned that you 0:07:18.476 --> 0:07:22.636 didn't have postpartum depression. What I hear when you say 0:07:22.636 --> 0:07:25.236 that is for even those fortunate enough to not suffer 0:07:25.276 --> 0:07:29.556 from serious mental health conditions following a pregnancy. The road 0:07:30.196 --> 0:07:33.836 forward is still very fraud yea, and very hard. And 0:07:33.916 --> 0:07:36.596 I think it's important to say that out loud, because 0:07:36.596 --> 0:07:40.116 I imagine there are many women listening to this who 0:07:40.156 --> 0:07:43.356 really felt off and went to their physicians and didn't 0:07:43.356 --> 0:07:46.196 get the formal diagnosis and then thought, well, then, what 0:07:46.236 --> 0:07:48.796 the hell's wrong with me? Why am I like this? 0:07:48.796 --> 0:07:51.596 This is horrible, Like I must be damaged or flawed 0:07:51.676 --> 0:07:52.876 or not meant for motherhood. 0:07:53.156 --> 0:07:56.956 Yeah, it's really one of the central reasons I wanted 0:07:56.956 --> 0:08:01.996 to write this book because I knew that there were 0:08:02.076 --> 0:08:05.436 so many women. There are so many women who are 0:08:05.916 --> 0:08:08.596 aware of the symptoms of postpartum depression, and who would 0:08:08.596 --> 0:08:10.996 go to their doctor for their six week checkup and 0:08:11.036 --> 0:08:14.236 be told, you know, you passed the screening, you don't 0:08:14.316 --> 0:08:17.956 have depression. And I knew that that in itself would 0:08:17.996 --> 0:08:20.636 bring about a kind of suffering. Well, then if it 0:08:20.676 --> 0:08:21.876 isn't depression, what is it. 0:08:23.316 --> 0:08:26.236 Let's dig a little deeper into your decision to write 0:08:26.236 --> 0:08:28.956 this book. You said that at the time there were 0:08:28.996 --> 0:08:31.356 lots of books on how to be a good mother, 0:08:31.556 --> 0:08:32.436 had a parent kids. 0:08:32.476 --> 0:08:34.316 Well, what kind. 0:08:34.196 --> 0:08:36.356 Of book did you feel like you needed in that 0:08:36.476 --> 0:08:37.956 moment that was harder to find. 0:08:39.516 --> 0:08:42.316 I needed a book that would help me make sense 0:08:42.956 --> 0:08:47.476 of all of what was changing in my internal world, 0:08:48.316 --> 0:08:52.756 Like the emotional landscape that I was now inhabiting as 0:08:52.756 --> 0:08:56.756 a mother was so I almost want to say treacherous, 0:08:56.876 --> 0:09:00.076 you know, like I didn't exactly know what to expect 0:09:00.476 --> 0:09:04.396 on a given day or a given hour, such a 0:09:05.076 --> 0:09:09.196 you know, sense of upheaval internally, even if externally I 0:09:09.036 --> 0:09:12.916 was doing all the things and appeared to be handling 0:09:13.116 --> 0:09:16.516 the experience of motherhood, and I was. I was so 0:09:16.756 --> 0:09:19.916 changed internally. As you said, all the books were about 0:09:19.916 --> 0:09:25.076 how do you do mothering, you know, in pregnancy and afterward, 0:09:25.116 --> 0:09:30.036 how do you perform this motherhood gig that you're signing 0:09:30.076 --> 0:09:33.236 on for? You know, because I was studying this, because 0:09:33.276 --> 0:09:35.316 I was sort of on the front lines with other 0:09:35.356 --> 0:09:37.636 women having a hard time in motherhood, I knew that 0:09:37.716 --> 0:09:42.076 my experience was not unique. I was hearing almost identical 0:09:42.476 --> 0:09:46.116 words coming out of the mouths of multiple clients, and 0:09:46.196 --> 0:09:48.076 they all sounded like they could be words that I 0:09:48.196 --> 0:09:54.116 was speaking, And yet everybody was thinking that they were alone, 0:09:54.356 --> 0:09:55.796 that there was something wrong with them. 0:09:56.676 --> 0:10:01.436 It's a very cutting observation from you that in part, 0:10:01.676 --> 0:10:04.836 the dearth of books on the internal shifts that happened 0:10:04.876 --> 0:10:10.236 in motherhood speaks to cultural values. We value a mom's 0:10:10.316 --> 0:10:14.676 ability to parent well versus her well being as a person, 0:10:14.796 --> 0:10:15.636 as an individual. 0:10:16.156 --> 0:10:19.556 Well, I think we need look no further than the 0:10:19.956 --> 0:10:26.956 woefully inadequate infrastructure in our society of supporting women who 0:10:27.156 --> 0:10:30.396 are about to become or have recently become mothers. It 0:10:30.516 --> 0:10:36.636 really doesn't. It barely exists. The notion of sacrifice in motherhood, 0:10:36.636 --> 0:10:40.236 I think, is just so embedded, like it's just understood. 0:10:40.316 --> 0:10:43.516 It's taken as a given that a mother will sacrifice 0:10:43.596 --> 0:10:47.076 quite a lot for her child, including her own well being. 0:10:47.636 --> 0:10:51.956 Yeah, we're so anchored to think of introducing a baby 0:10:51.996 --> 0:10:56.436 into our lives as just something that adds to our life. 0:10:56.476 --> 0:10:59.196 And you make it a point in your book to 0:10:59.236 --> 0:11:02.156 talk about you shine a light really on all that 0:11:02.196 --> 0:11:05.636 mothers lose in the process. And there's a story that 0:11:05.676 --> 0:11:08.716 you share in your book where you're confronting exactly this, 0:11:08.916 --> 0:11:11.756 and it starts with you sitting on the steps of 0:11:11.836 --> 0:11:16.316 your home with a beer in your hand, contemplating your 0:11:16.356 --> 0:11:17.276 life pre kid. 0:11:18.356 --> 0:11:21.236 I had had such a grueling day with my son, 0:11:21.316 --> 0:11:27.396 who was a colligy baby, and I was exhausted, and 0:11:27.436 --> 0:11:29.916 when I sat down for the first time all day, 0:11:30.116 --> 0:11:34.276 having just put him to bed, what came almost flooding 0:11:34.356 --> 0:11:40.076 in was the sensation of longing for the life I 0:11:40.156 --> 0:11:44.396 had before he was born. So it wasn't just the exhaustion, 0:11:44.916 --> 0:11:49.716 it wasn't just the muscle tension from carrying him around 0:11:49.716 --> 0:11:51.676 all day and trying to get him to stop crying. 0:11:53.156 --> 0:11:57.716 It was really clearly a feeling of missing what my 0:11:57.796 --> 0:12:00.396 life was like and what I felt like inside before 0:12:00.436 --> 0:12:05.796 he was born. And then I very quickly had an 0:12:05.836 --> 0:12:12.356 experience of shame about that what kind of person misses 0:12:12.396 --> 0:12:16.036 the life she had before she had a baby that 0:12:16.076 --> 0:12:24.676 she loved so much? And you know, it's hard even 0:12:24.716 --> 0:12:27.636 to reminisce. It's hard to think back to that moment 0:12:27.756 --> 0:12:32.676 because it was so painful, And I think it also 0:12:32.756 --> 0:12:40.636 really gave rise to this conviction to break out of 0:12:42.116 --> 0:12:46.956 this constricting mental framework that I was made to have 0:12:47.476 --> 0:12:51.156 by the lack of honest discourse about what motherhood is like. 0:12:51.916 --> 0:12:55.276 If somebody had told me ahead of time, it's okay 0:12:55.556 --> 0:12:57.956 to miss the life you had before you had a baby, 0:12:57.996 --> 0:12:59.956 and of course you're going to miss the life you 0:13:00.036 --> 0:13:03.356 had because there were so many great things about it that, 0:13:03.436 --> 0:13:06.556 at least for now, are gone. If somebody that I 0:13:06.636 --> 0:13:10.116 trusted had told me that, I like to think I 0:13:10.116 --> 0:13:15.076 wouldn't have felt the shame. When we're grieving a more 0:13:15.156 --> 0:13:18.396 obvious loss, the death of a loved one, for example, 0:13:18.556 --> 0:13:22.676 we have all sorts of permission to feel sad, to 0:13:22.756 --> 0:13:26.636 feel that longing for what was before, to be in pain. 0:13:28.396 --> 0:13:31.516 New moms are not given that same permission, because the 0:13:31.596 --> 0:13:34.276 narrative around motherhood is that it is it's a gain, 0:13:34.476 --> 0:13:39.556 it's an expansion, it's a beautiful addition to your life, 0:13:39.596 --> 0:13:42.676 which it is all of those things, and it's also 0:13:43.356 --> 0:13:46.836 a whole lot of loss, and people just don't have 0:13:46.876 --> 0:13:47.916 the framework for that. 0:13:48.996 --> 0:13:52.756 What are examples of things, Molly that get lost when 0:13:52.796 --> 0:13:54.076 people become mothers. 0:13:54.436 --> 0:13:57.756 I think there's a loss of any semblance of order 0:13:58.076 --> 0:14:03.556 and organization and to a large degree, control over the 0:14:03.596 --> 0:14:06.356 things that prior to the baby you sort of took 0:14:06.356 --> 0:14:10.036 for granted, like your time and how you use that time. 0:14:11.436 --> 0:14:14.916 My husband jokes that kids are entropy machines, you know, 0:14:15.076 --> 0:14:19.836 So there's just this utter chaos and degree of messiness, 0:14:20.116 --> 0:14:25.076 you know, literally and figuratively, and I learned that my 0:14:25.996 --> 0:14:28.996 you know, the premium that I placed on keeping things 0:14:29.196 --> 0:14:33.756 organized and tidy and orderly was really a liability in 0:14:33.836 --> 0:14:35.836 motherhood as opposed to a strength. 0:14:36.156 --> 0:14:36.876 Not an asset. 0:14:37.076 --> 0:14:43.076 Right, there's a loss at a social level because the 0:14:43.116 --> 0:14:46.476 conditions of early motherhood are just so isolating with the 0:14:46.516 --> 0:14:50.036 way that we do it in our society, which is 0:14:50.116 --> 0:14:52.796 not the right way to do it, you know, which 0:14:52.836 --> 0:14:55.276 is that you send a new mom home with her baby, 0:14:55.356 --> 0:14:58.196 and if she's lucky, maybe she has a partner who's 0:14:58.196 --> 0:15:00.516 around for a little while, but likely that partner goes 0:15:00.556 --> 0:15:03.676 back to work before she does. It's not typical anymore 0:15:03.716 --> 0:15:07.716 for women to have family nearby, for women to have 0:15:08.036 --> 0:15:11.396 even friends who are actually checking in on them in 0:15:11.676 --> 0:15:16.676 a kind of consistent in person way. If you were 0:15:16.716 --> 0:15:21.396 accustomed to having daily sort of social interaction and then 0:15:21.436 --> 0:15:25.156 suddenly you have none or almost none, and the only 0:15:25.196 --> 0:15:30.316 person that you're interacting with at length as your baby. Yeah, 0:15:30.396 --> 0:15:35.276 I think for many people there is a loss of identity. 0:15:35.916 --> 0:15:39.116 And this is another place where it's so tricky, because 0:15:39.716 --> 0:15:43.196 you could argue you've gained a dimension of your identity, 0:15:43.396 --> 0:15:45.636 which is now you're a mother, now you're a caregiver. 0:15:46.916 --> 0:15:49.956 But what happens for most women in this statement I'm 0:15:49.956 --> 0:15:53.476 about to make is grounded in research, is that other 0:15:53.636 --> 0:15:57.996 aspects of identity get sort of snuffed out by motherhood. 0:15:58.276 --> 0:16:03.436 So it becomes much more difficult to be a friend, 0:16:04.076 --> 0:16:10.436 a daughter, a partner, an artist. And if there isn't 0:16:10.436 --> 0:16:14.956 a difficulty maintaining them, there's usually really pervasive guilt about 0:16:15.076 --> 0:16:18.436 choices that are made to do anything other than caretaking. 0:16:19.036 --> 0:16:21.676 I would say something that comes up so commonly in 0:16:21.716 --> 0:16:24.836 the women that I work with is, no matter what 0:16:24.876 --> 0:16:29.076 your arrangement is in terms of work and or staying 0:16:29.076 --> 0:16:33.756 home with a baby, you feel guilty about it. So 0:16:33.796 --> 0:16:39.276 there's that phrase that is rightfully very popular now about 0:16:39.316 --> 0:16:42.316 how you're supposed to work like you don't have a 0:16:42.436 --> 0:16:44.876 child and parent like you don't have a job. 0:16:46.076 --> 0:16:48.076 Oh wow, yeah, I hadn't heard that. 0:16:48.076 --> 0:16:49.956 That's the pressure that women feel. 0:16:53.316 --> 0:16:55.876 So one of the things that you talk about in 0:16:55.916 --> 0:16:59.276 your book is that men and women don't tend to 0:16:59.356 --> 0:17:04.476 experience the same identity shifts in parenthood, and that disconnect 0:17:04.516 --> 0:17:07.116 can put a really big strain on the relationship. 0:17:08.436 --> 0:17:12.596 There is such a difference in how men and women 0:17:13.156 --> 0:17:20.236 experience the transition to parenthood, and that creates many of 0:17:20.276 --> 0:17:27.436 the struggles that go on in couples who are new parents. Interestingly, 0:17:27.716 --> 0:17:30.716 same sex couples don't take quite as much of a 0:17:30.796 --> 0:17:36.036 hit in terms of their relationship satisfaction as heterosexual couples do, 0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:43.636 and not coincidentally, same sex couples across the transition to 0:17:43.676 --> 0:17:48.196 parenthood have a more equitable division of labor. The reason 0:17:48.796 --> 0:17:52.396 I chose to focus on what goes on in heterosexual 0:17:52.436 --> 0:17:57.316 couples is that it tells us quite a lot about 0:17:57.396 --> 0:18:03.556 what ails us at the society level, meaning it tells 0:18:03.636 --> 0:18:06.116 us just how far we still have to go in 0:18:06.236 --> 0:18:13.036 terms of equality. There is this terribly unfortunate reverting to 0:18:13.276 --> 0:18:18.316 traditional gender roles for heterosexual couples, and suddenly, even if 0:18:18.436 --> 0:18:21.556 a couple had worked very hard to have a sort 0:18:21.596 --> 0:18:26.476 of egalitarian arrangement, suddenly they've lost that when they're new parents, 0:18:26.716 --> 0:18:30.716 and suddenly the division of responsibility around the house and 0:18:30.756 --> 0:18:35.036 with childcare is not equal. So I really wanted to 0:18:35.676 --> 0:18:41.956 illuminate just how much it matters that the strain of 0:18:42.156 --> 0:18:46.556 new motherhood is greater than the strain of new fatherhood. 0:18:47.676 --> 0:18:49.916 And again, I want to be careful to say that's 0:18:49.996 --> 0:18:54.516 not speculation or opinion, that's there. You know, the research 0:18:54.556 --> 0:18:58.556 on this is robust that women experience the transition to 0:18:58.636 --> 0:19:02.836 parenthood in a very different way from how men experience 0:19:02.916 --> 0:19:04.236 the transition to parenthood. 0:19:04.916 --> 0:19:08.276 Yeah, what are working theories around why this is so? 0:19:08.516 --> 0:19:09.236 Is it? 0:19:09.236 --> 0:19:12.916 It's obviously a very very challenging question to answer empirically, 0:19:13.036 --> 0:19:15.476 but I'm curious to know what theories exist out there. 0:19:15.996 --> 0:19:18.916 Yeah, I mean, I would say the prevailing theories that 0:19:18.956 --> 0:19:22.396 this has everything to do with socialization and the ways 0:19:22.436 --> 0:19:28.516 in which men are even now discouraged from taking on 0:19:29.076 --> 0:19:34.276 too fully the role of caregiving at the expense of breadwinning, 0:19:34.556 --> 0:19:37.196 and the opposite would be true for women. That you know, 0:19:37.276 --> 0:19:41.076 sort of the pinnacle of being a proper adult woman 0:19:41.236 --> 0:19:43.276 is to become a mother and to fully adopt that 0:19:43.436 --> 0:19:47.796 into your identity. So largely I think this can be 0:19:47.876 --> 0:19:51.516 explained by these profoundly different ways that men and women 0:19:51.716 --> 0:19:56.796 are socialized. And there is all kinds of really interesting 0:19:57.156 --> 0:20:03.036 neuroscience research that suggests there are biological bases for some 0:20:03.076 --> 0:20:06.876 of this, and that you know, women's brains are wired 0:20:06.996 --> 0:20:11.476 to be highly attentive to their offspring, and that explains 0:20:12.396 --> 0:20:16.676 the very aggravating situation of baby cries in the night 0:20:16.716 --> 0:20:18.916 and somehow dad doesn't hear it, and mom hears it 0:20:18.956 --> 0:20:19.796 and has to go. 0:20:19.876 --> 0:20:20.476 Deal with it. 0:20:21.116 --> 0:20:24.996 I saw a really, really funny Instagram reel a while 0:20:25.076 --> 0:20:28.636 back that was a woman getting in bed on her 0:20:28.756 --> 0:20:31.996 husband's side. Like the husband was not in the scene. 0:20:32.596 --> 0:20:35.036 She's getting in bed on his side, and she says, 0:20:35.116 --> 0:20:37.836 I thought I'd try sleeping over here tonight since apparently 0:20:37.916 --> 0:20:40.036 the baby's cries can't be heard from here. 0:20:42.716 --> 0:20:44.396 Oh that's so fun. I love it. 0:20:47.876 --> 0:20:49.956 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:20:49.956 --> 0:21:06.476 of plans. Ambivalence is a word you come back to 0:21:06.676 --> 0:21:09.436 over and over and over again in your book book, 0:21:09.556 --> 0:21:13.316 and you talk about so many of your clients in 0:21:13.396 --> 0:21:18.196 therapy being shocked by the conflicting emotions that they have 0:21:18.316 --> 0:21:21.116 towards motherhood. After becoming a mother. 0:21:22.196 --> 0:21:28.516 I think oftentimes there's this experience of just profound, fierce 0:21:28.596 --> 0:21:34.796 love for your baby coupled with boredom, feeling bored by 0:21:34.796 --> 0:21:37.996 your baby, pulling your hair out because you can't figure 0:21:38.036 --> 0:21:40.636 out what your baby needs, or because you're so exhausted 0:21:40.636 --> 0:21:43.476 and frazzled that they're not sleeping for longer than twenty minutes. 0:21:44.396 --> 0:21:48.676 True mental health is about the freedom to feel whatever 0:21:48.716 --> 0:21:53.156 there is to feel, the being awake to all of 0:21:53.196 --> 0:21:56.676 what is beautiful and wonderful in life and also all 0:21:56.716 --> 0:22:01.036 of what is ugly and painful. That is well being, 0:22:01.116 --> 0:22:07.196 that is mental health. So in some ways, that ambivalence 0:22:07.396 --> 0:22:10.356 that new moms feel is you know, you could kind 0:22:10.356 --> 0:22:13.076 of argue that that's like the height of mental health 0:22:13.156 --> 0:22:15.436 to be feeling like all the channels are open and 0:22:15.436 --> 0:22:18.916 they're feeling all of these emotions even when they conflict. 0:22:20.236 --> 0:22:23.596 But it is really important to say that that array 0:22:23.636 --> 0:22:27.116 of emotion, it's not just that it's a bunch of 0:22:27.556 --> 0:22:30.476 different emotions that can kind of fit neatly together. It's 0:22:30.516 --> 0:22:33.716 that they often are in direct opposition to each other. 0:22:34.236 --> 0:22:35.436 Yes, exactly. 0:22:35.756 --> 0:22:40.196 So for example, I have worked with so many women 0:22:40.276 --> 0:22:43.996 and I felt this myself, who say, I am so 0:22:44.276 --> 0:22:48.516 desperate for breathing room, I'm so desperate for space from 0:22:48.556 --> 0:22:53.356 my baby, and I can't bear to leave my baby, 0:22:53.476 --> 0:22:55.716 you know, like it's really makes no sense on the 0:22:55.716 --> 0:22:57.516 face of it, Like, wait a second, if you're desperate 0:22:57.516 --> 0:23:00.076 for breathing room, then leave your baby with someone else 0:23:00.116 --> 0:23:03.396 and go get it. That's where that tortured state comes in, like, 0:23:03.436 --> 0:23:04.796 how can this possibly be. 0:23:05.596 --> 0:23:08.156 A lot of the time you hear people say with 0:23:08.236 --> 0:23:12.476 a caveat my child, but or I love my partner butt, 0:23:13.196 --> 0:23:18.476 and we feel almost compelled to justify that love before 0:23:19.076 --> 0:23:23.796 we criticize any part of the relationship or the process of, 0:23:23.916 --> 0:23:25.156 in this case, raising a child. 0:23:25.716 --> 0:23:27.476 Can you tell me a little bit more about that. 0:23:28.116 --> 0:23:32.036 Yeah, I think it's a tension that exists when you 0:23:32.196 --> 0:23:36.636 use the word butt between two feeling states that you're expressing, 0:23:36.876 --> 0:23:40.716 and the tension says one of these needs to be resolved, 0:23:41.396 --> 0:23:45.156 one of these is more true than the other, one 0:23:45.156 --> 0:23:49.996 of these is more socially sanctioned, and so I'm going 0:23:50.036 --> 0:23:51.956 to make sure I say it before I say this 0:23:51.996 --> 0:23:56.196 other more risky one. And I love my child that 0:23:56.236 --> 0:23:59.196 comes before so many other statements. I think that just 0:23:59.276 --> 0:24:03.156 goes back to this whole problem of the taboo, you know, 0:24:03.236 --> 0:24:08.956 incredibly strong taboo against revealing the challenges and the hardships 0:24:09.196 --> 0:24:10.636 of motherhood. Hm. 0:24:11.636 --> 0:24:14.396 There's actually a passage from your book that I would 0:24:14.436 --> 0:24:17.436 love if you could just read for us, Molly, And 0:24:17.876 --> 0:24:22.396 it's a statement that you make about being a parent 0:24:22.436 --> 0:24:23.516 to a second child. 0:24:27.516 --> 0:24:31.916 Okay, when my boys were younger, there were times I 0:24:31.956 --> 0:24:34.556 felt pretty certain that I would have been better off 0:24:34.636 --> 0:24:39.316 with only one child. I know some readers are thinking, what, 0:24:40.436 --> 0:24:43.716 how can she say that? Doesn't she know her younger 0:24:43.796 --> 0:24:49.396 son could read this someday and be devastated. Well, I'm 0:24:49.436 --> 0:24:53.196 not worried about that. I have faith that my second 0:24:53.276 --> 0:24:57.716 child will recognize the enormous difference between believing I might 0:24:57.756 --> 0:24:59.876 have been better suited to be the mother of an 0:24:59.876 --> 0:25:05.836 only child and regretting his existence. It was never him 0:25:06.116 --> 0:25:10.316 I sometimes wished weren't around. It was the dynamic of 0:25:10.316 --> 0:25:13.756 my two children together and the sheer degree of stimulation 0:25:14.076 --> 0:25:18.076 in my immediate environment that sometimes made me think this 0:25:18.116 --> 0:25:22.796 isn't the greatest fit for me. If anyone is disparaging 0:25:22.836 --> 0:25:25.516 me for having felt that way and for putting it 0:25:25.556 --> 0:25:28.716 down here on the page, that is a reflection of 0:25:28.756 --> 0:25:32.236 the very reason I wanted to write this book. The 0:25:32.316 --> 0:25:36.596 complex truths of motherhood will continue to make everyone uncomfortable 0:25:36.716 --> 0:25:43.676 and ashamed until they're articulated readily and repeatedly. My love 0:25:43.716 --> 0:25:47.996 for Quinn, my second son, is deep and fierce. I 0:25:48.036 --> 0:25:51.796 do not favor Noah over him. There is nothing I 0:25:51.796 --> 0:25:55.396 wouldn't do to protect him, and there is no threat 0:25:55.436 --> 0:25:58.356 more ominous than the threat of losing either one of them. 0:25:59.716 --> 0:26:02.716 It's silly that I'm even saying all this, but therein 0:26:02.836 --> 0:26:06.476 lies the problem. We are afraid that if we give 0:26:06.556 --> 0:26:10.556 voice to the darker, less acceptable feasts of our experience 0:26:10.596 --> 0:26:17.996 as mothers, this will somehow render the prettier, acceptable facets untrue. 0:26:18.196 --> 0:26:20.436 I love that you just double down in that moment 0:26:20.596 --> 0:26:22.516 and said it like it was. You were like, I 0:26:22.556 --> 0:26:25.596 know y'all are judging me right now, and I'm just 0:26:25.636 --> 0:26:28.756 going to keep saying it anyway. And that's a powerful 0:26:29.076 --> 0:26:31.996 mic drop moment that I'm just grateful that you didn't. 0:26:32.356 --> 0:26:34.116 And I'm sure it was really hard to write. I'm 0:26:34.116 --> 0:26:35.316 sure that took a lot of courage. 0:26:35.556 --> 0:26:37.636 Yes, it was hard even to put the words on 0:26:37.676 --> 0:26:44.036