1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,396 --> 00:00:33,276 Speaker 2: I had had such a grueling day with my son, 3 00:00:34,156 --> 00:00:37,956 Speaker 2: and I was exhausted, and when I sat down for 4 00:00:37,996 --> 00:00:40,636 Speaker 2: the first time all day, having just put him to bed, 5 00:00:41,556 --> 00:00:47,156 Speaker 2: what came almost flooding in was the sensation of longing 6 00:00:48,116 --> 00:00:51,636 Speaker 2: for the life I had before he was born. And 7 00:00:51,676 --> 00:00:56,716 Speaker 2: then I very quickly had an experience of shame about that, 8 00:00:57,876 --> 00:01:02,236 Speaker 2: Like what kind of person misses the life she had 9 00:01:02,316 --> 00:01:05,956 Speaker 2: before she had a baby that she loved so much. 10 00:01:07,156 --> 00:01:10,716 Speaker 3: Molly Millwood is a clinical psychology who counsels new moms. 11 00:01:11,236 --> 00:01:14,156 Speaker 3: She's also a mom herself, and she's made it her 12 00:01:14,196 --> 00:01:17,596 Speaker 3: mission to say the quiet part out loud, to share 13 00:01:17,756 --> 00:01:21,876 Speaker 3: just how challenging and profound the transition to motherhood can be. 14 00:01:22,596 --> 00:01:25,756 Speaker 2: I think motherhood sort of ushers in for most women, 15 00:01:25,876 --> 00:01:33,796 Speaker 2: this chapter of reckoning, of confronting illusions about ourselves that 16 00:01:33,836 --> 00:01:37,436 Speaker 2: we sometimes didn't even know we had that we are 17 00:01:37,516 --> 00:01:40,596 Speaker 2: then forced to let go of, and that process of 18 00:01:40,676 --> 00:01:44,516 Speaker 2: letting go can be very messy and very painful. 19 00:01:48,796 --> 00:01:52,996 Speaker 3: On today's episode, Real Talk about the transition to motherhood, 20 00:01:55,196 --> 00:01:58,076 Speaker 3: I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 21 00:01:58,396 --> 00:02:00,596 Speaker 3: a show about who we are and who we become 22 00:02:00,916 --> 00:02:15,356 Speaker 3: In the face of a big change. Mollie's a psychology 23 00:02:15,396 --> 00:02:18,516 Speaker 3: professor and a therapist who works mostly with new mothers 24 00:02:18,516 --> 00:02:22,116 Speaker 3: and parents. She wrote a stunningly honest book about the 25 00:02:22,156 --> 00:02:26,836 Speaker 3: experience of entering motherhood. It's called To Have and to Hold, Motherhood, 26 00:02:26,916 --> 00:02:30,636 Speaker 3: Marriage and the Modern Dilemma. I recommended it to many 27 00:02:30,676 --> 00:02:33,836 Speaker 3: of my friends who've recently become moms. One of my 28 00:02:33,876 --> 00:02:37,036 Speaker 3: friends in particular, is struggling with mom guilt and other 29 00:02:37,116 --> 00:02:40,796 Speaker 3: disorienting feelings. She said she felt like Mollie had written 30 00:02:40,836 --> 00:02:43,676 Speaker 3: the book just for her. The book is full of 31 00:02:43,716 --> 00:02:46,836 Speaker 3: insights from Mollie's work as a therapist and an academic, 32 00:02:47,596 --> 00:02:50,756 Speaker 3: but she also shares her own challenges as a mom, 33 00:02:51,036 --> 00:02:55,956 Speaker 3: struggles she simply wasn't expecting because before having kids, she says, 34 00:02:55,956 --> 00:02:57,876 Speaker 3: she was a very even, keel person. 35 00:02:58,436 --> 00:03:01,356 Speaker 2: I even got the nickname as an adolescent Molly feel 36 00:03:01,396 --> 00:03:04,556 Speaker 2: Good because I just seem to be generally feeling good 37 00:03:05,676 --> 00:03:07,836 Speaker 2: and making other people feel good, not in a sort 38 00:03:07,876 --> 00:03:12,996 Speaker 2: of loud, overly exuberant or cheerful way, but just quietly 39 00:03:13,196 --> 00:03:17,796 Speaker 2: calm and content. And because of that, I think I 40 00:03:17,876 --> 00:03:21,716 Speaker 2: had this idea that I was going to have a 41 00:03:21,756 --> 00:03:26,156 Speaker 2: deeper well of patience than the average person, and that 42 00:03:26,156 --> 00:03:30,596 Speaker 2: that sort of emotional stability that characterized me my whole 43 00:03:30,596 --> 00:03:34,236 Speaker 2: life until then would not only continue in motherhood, but 44 00:03:34,276 --> 00:03:36,436 Speaker 2: would also serve me very well as a mother and 45 00:03:36,476 --> 00:03:37,996 Speaker 2: serve my children well. 46 00:03:38,796 --> 00:03:42,076 Speaker 3: Right in your book, you write about how after you 47 00:03:42,116 --> 00:03:44,796 Speaker 3: had your first child, you had to let go of 48 00:03:44,836 --> 00:03:48,516 Speaker 3: illusions that you had about yourself and what you thought 49 00:03:48,596 --> 00:03:49,596 Speaker 3: mothering would look like. 50 00:03:50,276 --> 00:03:51,756 Speaker 1: Can you tell me what you meant by that. 51 00:03:52,356 --> 00:03:56,116 Speaker 2: I think the illusion that I had to let go 52 00:03:56,236 --> 00:04:01,636 Speaker 2: of was that emotional calm and balance was some kind 53 00:04:01,676 --> 00:04:06,556 Speaker 2: of ultra healthy zen state that I was fortunate to occupy, 54 00:04:07,196 --> 00:04:11,436 Speaker 2: when instead what it was was that I really wasn't 55 00:04:11,476 --> 00:04:15,476 Speaker 2: fully in touch with the whole array of emotion that 56 00:04:15,556 --> 00:04:20,956 Speaker 2: my existence rings, that every human's existence springs, until in 57 00:04:21,076 --> 00:04:26,396 Speaker 2: motherhood I was bursting at the seams with those emotions. 58 00:04:26,756 --> 00:04:30,756 Speaker 2: I would say that there were emotions within me in 59 00:04:30,796 --> 00:04:36,876 Speaker 2: the realm of love and ecstasy and bliss because of 60 00:04:36,916 --> 00:04:40,996 Speaker 2: this new human being that I treasured so deeply. And 61 00:04:41,796 --> 00:04:43,996 Speaker 2: it was fun, you know. I was having more fun 62 00:04:44,036 --> 00:04:48,396 Speaker 2: than I'd ever had before engaging with my baby, and 63 00:04:48,716 --> 00:04:50,076 Speaker 2: in all these things that we would put in the 64 00:04:50,076 --> 00:04:53,876 Speaker 2: category of good stuff, I felt all of those much 65 00:04:53,916 --> 00:04:57,596 Speaker 2: more strongly than I ever had before. And then on 66 00:04:57,636 --> 00:05:06,316 Speaker 2: the other side, there were episodes of intense anger, maybe 67 00:05:06,356 --> 00:05:10,996 Speaker 2: borderline rage, not that we'rever acted upon. When my baby 68 00:05:11,036 --> 00:05:15,836 Speaker 2: wouldn't stop crying, I would have these layers of despair. 69 00:05:16,196 --> 00:05:18,436 Speaker 2: You know, it hurts so much for your baby to 70 00:05:18,516 --> 00:05:21,556 Speaker 2: be crying and to be unable to console them, like 71 00:05:21,676 --> 00:05:24,796 Speaker 2: why will my baby not stop crying, and in a 72 00:05:24,836 --> 00:05:29,156 Speaker 2: sense blaming him, this innocent little baby, which makes no 73 00:05:29,236 --> 00:05:33,196 Speaker 2: logical sense. But I know that that's such a common experience. 74 00:05:33,236 --> 00:05:35,516 Speaker 2: And I wrote in the book about resentment, you know 75 00:05:35,516 --> 00:05:38,796 Speaker 2: that sometimes moms even resent their babies, which is sort 76 00:05:38,796 --> 00:05:42,396 Speaker 2: of a more insidious emotion than just anger. Sure, it 77 00:05:42,556 --> 00:05:45,196 Speaker 2: bruis for a while and kind of culminates over time. 78 00:05:46,276 --> 00:05:50,036 Speaker 2: So I think motherhood just sort of puts us on 79 00:05:50,156 --> 00:05:54,916 Speaker 2: the outer bounds of these emotions that we experience in 80 00:05:54,996 --> 00:05:56,796 Speaker 2: the rest of life. Most of the time, they're not 81 00:05:56,836 --> 00:05:59,756 Speaker 2: totally foreign or alien to us. They're just so much 82 00:05:59,756 --> 00:06:01,996 Speaker 2: more intense in the context of motherhood. 83 00:06:02,836 --> 00:06:06,196 Speaker 3: Yeah, you write in the book that at one point 84 00:06:06,636 --> 00:06:10,676 Speaker 3: your husband felt like he couldn't even recognize you. I mean, 85 00:06:10,716 --> 00:06:12,556 Speaker 3: what was it like to run up against that in 86 00:06:12,596 --> 00:06:16,476 Speaker 3: the throes of new motherhood where you're already feeling overwhelmed, 87 00:06:16,516 --> 00:06:21,356 Speaker 3: and then suddenly you find yourself unrecognizable, not just to 88 00:06:21,396 --> 00:06:24,236 Speaker 3: your husband, but what I'm hearing is to yourself. 89 00:06:25,196 --> 00:06:28,596 Speaker 2: Yes, he said I was hostile and cold. It was 90 00:06:28,676 --> 00:06:33,436 Speaker 2: really really hard to get that feedback, and at the 91 00:06:33,436 --> 00:06:37,116 Speaker 2: same time it resonated. It's like he was speaking a 92 00:06:37,156 --> 00:06:41,996 Speaker 2: truth that neither one of us could deny. He was 93 00:06:42,076 --> 00:06:44,636 Speaker 2: the one who was just a little more ready to 94 00:06:44,716 --> 00:06:47,756 Speaker 2: put it into words. I don't love the words he chose. 95 00:06:47,796 --> 00:06:50,196 Speaker 2: I think there are probably more gentle ways that he 96 00:06:50,236 --> 00:06:54,036 Speaker 2: could have given me that feedback, but it was such 97 00:06:54,076 --> 00:06:56,956 Speaker 2: a pivotal moment because it meant that I couldn't keep 98 00:06:56,996 --> 00:06:58,916 Speaker 2: denying there. 99 00:06:58,796 --> 00:07:00,316 Speaker 1: Was a problem. 100 00:07:00,356 --> 00:07:02,196 Speaker 2: But here's where I want to be really careful to 101 00:07:02,276 --> 00:07:06,076 Speaker 2: say that it's not as if I was clinically depressed, 102 00:07:06,276 --> 00:07:08,076 Speaker 2: and it's not as if I look back on that 103 00:07:08,156 --> 00:07:13,356 Speaker 2: period of my early motherhood and remember myself being deeply unhappy. 104 00:07:13,516 --> 00:07:14,716 Speaker 2: I absolutely was not. 105 00:07:15,716 --> 00:07:18,196 Speaker 3: I think it's very powerful that you mentioned that you 106 00:07:18,476 --> 00:07:22,636 Speaker 3: didn't have postpartum depression. What I hear when you say 107 00:07:22,636 --> 00:07:25,236 Speaker 3: that is for even those fortunate enough to not suffer 108 00:07:25,276 --> 00:07:29,556 Speaker 3: from serious mental health conditions following a pregnancy. The road 109 00:07:30,196 --> 00:07:33,836 Speaker 3: forward is still very fraud yea, and very hard. And 110 00:07:33,916 --> 00:07:36,596 Speaker 3: I think it's important to say that out loud, because 111 00:07:36,596 --> 00:07:40,116 Speaker 3: I imagine there are many women listening to this who 112 00:07:40,156 --> 00:07:43,356 Speaker 3: really felt off and went to their physicians and didn't 113 00:07:43,356 --> 00:07:46,196 Speaker 3: get the formal diagnosis and then thought, well, then, what 114 00:07:46,236 --> 00:07:48,796 Speaker 3: the hell's wrong with me? Why am I like this? 115 00:07:48,796 --> 00:07:51,596 Speaker 3: This is horrible, Like I must be damaged or flawed 116 00:07:51,676 --> 00:07:52,876 Speaker 3: or not meant for motherhood. 117 00:07:53,156 --> 00:07:56,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really one of the central reasons I wanted 118 00:07:56,956 --> 00:08:01,996 Speaker 2: to write this book because I knew that there were 119 00:08:02,076 --> 00:08:05,436 Speaker 2: so many women. There are so many women who are 120 00:08:05,916 --> 00:08:08,596 Speaker 2: aware of the symptoms of postpartum depression, and who would 121 00:08:08,596 --> 00:08:10,996 Speaker 2: go to their doctor for their six week checkup and 122 00:08:11,036 --> 00:08:14,236 Speaker 2: be told, you know, you passed the screening, you don't 123 00:08:14,316 --> 00:08:17,956 Speaker 2: have depression. And I knew that that in itself would 124 00:08:17,996 --> 00:08:20,636 Speaker 2: bring about a kind of suffering. Well, then if it 125 00:08:20,676 --> 00:08:21,876 Speaker 2: isn't depression, what is it. 126 00:08:23,316 --> 00:08:26,236 Speaker 3: Let's dig a little deeper into your decision to write 127 00:08:26,236 --> 00:08:28,956 Speaker 3: this book. You said that at the time there were 128 00:08:28,996 --> 00:08:31,356 Speaker 3: lots of books on how to be a good mother, 129 00:08:31,556 --> 00:08:32,436 Speaker 3: had a parent kids. 130 00:08:32,476 --> 00:08:34,316 Speaker 1: Well, what kind. 131 00:08:34,196 --> 00:08:36,356 Speaker 3: Of book did you feel like you needed in that 132 00:08:36,476 --> 00:08:37,956 Speaker 3: moment that was harder to find. 133 00:08:39,516 --> 00:08:42,316 Speaker 2: I needed a book that would help me make sense 134 00:08:42,956 --> 00:08:47,476 Speaker 2: of all of what was changing in my internal world, 135 00:08:48,316 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 2: Like the emotional landscape that I was now inhabiting as 136 00:08:52,756 --> 00:08:56,756 Speaker 2: a mother was so I almost want to say treacherous, 137 00:08:56,876 --> 00:09:00,076 Speaker 2: you know, like I didn't exactly know what to expect 138 00:09:00,476 --> 00:09:04,396 Speaker 2: on a given day or a given hour, such a 139 00:09:05,076 --> 00:09:09,196 Speaker 2: you know, sense of upheaval internally, even if externally I 140 00:09:09,036 --> 00:09:12,916 Speaker 2: was doing all the things and appeared to be handling 141 00:09:13,116 --> 00:09:16,516 Speaker 2: the experience of motherhood, and I was. I was so 142 00:09:16,756 --> 00:09:19,916 Speaker 2: changed internally. As you said, all the books were about 143 00:09:19,916 --> 00:09:25,076 Speaker 2: how do you do mothering, you know, in pregnancy and afterward, 144 00:09:25,116 --> 00:09:30,036 Speaker 2: how do you perform this motherhood gig that you're signing 145 00:09:30,076 --> 00:09:33,236 Speaker 2: on for? You know, because I was studying this, because 146 00:09:33,276 --> 00:09:35,316 Speaker 2: I was sort of on the front lines with other 147 00:09:35,356 --> 00:09:37,636 Speaker 2: women having a hard time in motherhood, I knew that 148 00:09:37,716 --> 00:09:42,076 Speaker 2: my experience was not unique. I was hearing almost identical 149 00:09:42,476 --> 00:09:46,116 Speaker 2: words coming out of the mouths of multiple clients, and 150 00:09:46,196 --> 00:09:48,076 Speaker 2: they all sounded like they could be words that I 151 00:09:48,196 --> 00:09:54,116 Speaker 2: was speaking, And yet everybody was thinking that they were alone, 152 00:09:54,356 --> 00:09:55,796 Speaker 2: that there was something wrong with them. 153 00:09:56,676 --> 00:10:01,436 Speaker 3: It's a very cutting observation from you that in part, 154 00:10:01,676 --> 00:10:04,836 Speaker 3: the dearth of books on the internal shifts that happened 155 00:10:04,876 --> 00:10:10,236 Speaker 3: in motherhood speaks to cultural values. We value a mom's 156 00:10:10,316 --> 00:10:14,676 Speaker 3: ability to parent well versus her well being as a person, 157 00:10:14,796 --> 00:10:15,636 Speaker 3: as an individual. 158 00:10:16,156 --> 00:10:19,556 Speaker 2: Well, I think we need look no further than the 159 00:10:19,956 --> 00:10:26,956 Speaker 2: woefully inadequate infrastructure in our society of supporting women who 160 00:10:27,156 --> 00:10:30,396 Speaker 2: are about to become or have recently become mothers. It 161 00:10:30,516 --> 00:10:36,636 Speaker 2: really doesn't. It barely exists. The notion of sacrifice in motherhood, 162 00:10:36,636 --> 00:10:40,236 Speaker 2: I think, is just so embedded, like it's just understood. 163 00:10:40,316 --> 00:10:43,516 Speaker 2: It's taken as a given that a mother will sacrifice 164 00:10:43,596 --> 00:10:47,076 Speaker 2: quite a lot for her child, including her own well being. 165 00:10:47,636 --> 00:10:51,956 Speaker 3: Yeah, we're so anchored to think of introducing a baby 166 00:10:51,996 --> 00:10:56,436 Speaker 3: into our lives as just something that adds to our life. 167 00:10:56,476 --> 00:10:59,196 Speaker 3: And you make it a point in your book to 168 00:10:59,236 --> 00:11:02,156 Speaker 3: talk about you shine a light really on all that 169 00:11:02,196 --> 00:11:05,636 Speaker 3: mothers lose in the process. And there's a story that 170 00:11:05,676 --> 00:11:08,716 Speaker 3: you share in your book where you're confronting exactly this, 171 00:11:08,916 --> 00:11:11,756 Speaker 3: and it starts with you sitting on the steps of 172 00:11:11,836 --> 00:11:16,316 Speaker 3: your home with a beer in your hand, contemplating your 173 00:11:16,356 --> 00:11:17,276 Speaker 3: life pre kid. 174 00:11:18,356 --> 00:11:21,236 Speaker 2: I had had such a grueling day with my son, 175 00:11:21,316 --> 00:11:27,396 Speaker 2: who was a colligy baby, and I was exhausted, and 176 00:11:27,436 --> 00:11:29,916 Speaker 2: when I sat down for the first time all day, 177 00:11:30,116 --> 00:11:34,276 Speaker 2: having just put him to bed, what came almost flooding 178 00:11:34,356 --> 00:11:40,076 Speaker 2: in was the sensation of longing for the life I 179 00:11:40,156 --> 00:11:44,396 Speaker 2: had before he was born. So it wasn't just the exhaustion, 180 00:11:44,916 --> 00:11:49,716 Speaker 2: it wasn't just the muscle tension from carrying him around 181 00:11:49,716 --> 00:11:51,676 Speaker 2: all day and trying to get him to stop crying. 182 00:11:53,156 --> 00:11:57,716 Speaker 2: It was really clearly a feeling of missing what my 183 00:11:57,796 --> 00:12:00,396 Speaker 2: life was like and what I felt like inside before 184 00:12:00,436 --> 00:12:05,796 Speaker 2: he was born. And then I very quickly had an 185 00:12:05,836 --> 00:12:12,356 Speaker 2: experience of shame about that what kind of person misses 186 00:12:12,396 --> 00:12:16,036 Speaker 2: the life she had before she had a baby that 187 00:12:16,076 --> 00:12:24,676 Speaker 2: she loved so much? And you know, it's hard even 188 00:12:24,716 --> 00:12:27,636 Speaker 2: to reminisce. It's hard to think back to that moment 189 00:12:27,756 --> 00:12:32,676 Speaker 2: because it was so painful, And I think it also 190 00:12:32,756 --> 00:12:40,636 Speaker 2: really gave rise to this conviction to break out of 191 00:12:42,116 --> 00:12:46,956 Speaker 2: this constricting mental framework that I was made to have 192 00:12:47,476 --> 00:12:51,156 Speaker 2: by the lack of honest discourse about what motherhood is like. 193 00:12:51,916 --> 00:12:55,276 Speaker 2: If somebody had told me ahead of time, it's okay 194 00:12:55,556 --> 00:12:57,956 Speaker 2: to miss the life you had before you had a baby, 195 00:12:57,996 --> 00:12:59,956 Speaker 2: and of course you're going to miss the life you 196 00:13:00,036 --> 00:13:03,356 Speaker 2: had because there were so many great things about it that, 197 00:13:03,436 --> 00:13:06,556 Speaker 2: at least for now, are gone. If somebody that I 198 00:13:06,636 --> 00:13:10,116 Speaker 2: trusted had told me that, I like to think I 199 00:13:10,116 --> 00:13:15,076 Speaker 2: wouldn't have felt the shame. When we're grieving a more 200 00:13:15,156 --> 00:13:18,396 Speaker 2: obvious loss, the death of a loved one, for example, 201 00:13:18,556 --> 00:13:22,676 Speaker 2: we have all sorts of permission to feel sad, to 202 00:13:22,756 --> 00:13:26,636 Speaker 2: feel that longing for what was before, to be in pain. 203 00:13:28,396 --> 00:13:31,516 Speaker 2: New moms are not given that same permission, because the 204 00:13:31,596 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 2: narrative around motherhood is that it is it's a gain, 205 00:13:34,476 --> 00:13:39,556 Speaker 2: it's an expansion, it's a beautiful addition to your life, 206 00:13:39,596 --> 00:13:42,676 Speaker 2: which it is all of those things, and it's also 207 00:13:43,356 --> 00:13:46,836 Speaker 2: a whole lot of loss, and people just don't have 208 00:13:46,876 --> 00:13:47,916 Speaker 2: the framework for that. 209 00:13:48,996 --> 00:13:52,756 Speaker 3: What are examples of things, Molly that get lost when 210 00:13:52,796 --> 00:13:54,076 Speaker 3: people become mothers. 211 00:13:54,436 --> 00:13:57,756 Speaker 2: I think there's a loss of any semblance of order 212 00:13:58,076 --> 00:14:03,556 Speaker 2: and organization and to a large degree, control over the 213 00:14:03,596 --> 00:14:06,356 Speaker 2: things that prior to the baby you sort of took 214 00:14:06,356 --> 00:14:10,036 Speaker 2: for granted, like your time and how you use that time. 215 00:14:11,436 --> 00:14:14,916 Speaker 2: My husband jokes that kids are entropy machines, you know, 216 00:14:15,076 --> 00:14:19,836 Speaker 2: So there's just this utter chaos and degree of messiness, 217 00:14:20,116 --> 00:14:25,076 Speaker 2: you know, literally and figuratively, and I learned that my 218 00:14:25,996 --> 00:14:28,996 Speaker 2: you know, the premium that I placed on keeping things 219 00:14:29,196 --> 00:14:33,756 Speaker 2: organized and tidy and orderly was really a liability in 220 00:14:33,836 --> 00:14:35,836 Speaker 2: motherhood as opposed to a strength. 221 00:14:36,156 --> 00:14:36,876 Speaker 1: Not an asset. 222 00:14:37,076 --> 00:14:43,076 Speaker 2: Right, there's a loss at a social level because the 223 00:14:43,116 --> 00:14:46,476 Speaker 2: conditions of early motherhood are just so isolating with the 224 00:14:46,516 --> 00:14:50,036 Speaker 2: way that we do it in our society, which is 225 00:14:50,116 --> 00:14:52,796 Speaker 2: not the right way to do it, you know, which 226 00:14:52,836 --> 00:14:55,276 Speaker 2: is that you send a new mom home with her baby, 227 00:14:55,356 --> 00:14:58,196 Speaker 2: and if she's lucky, maybe she has a partner who's 228 00:14:58,196 --> 00:15:00,516 Speaker 2: around for a little while, but likely that partner goes 229 00:15:00,556 --> 00:15:03,676 Speaker 2: back to work before she does. It's not typical anymore 230 00:15:03,716 --> 00:15:07,716 Speaker 2: for women to have family nearby, for women to have 231 00:15:08,036 --> 00:15:11,396 Speaker 2: even friends who are actually checking in on them in 232 00:15:11,676 --> 00:15:16,676 Speaker 2: a kind of consistent in person way. If you were 233 00:15:16,716 --> 00:15:21,396 Speaker 2: accustomed to having daily sort of social interaction and then 234 00:15:21,436 --> 00:15:25,156 Speaker 2: suddenly you have none or almost none, and the only 235 00:15:25,196 --> 00:15:30,316 Speaker 2: person that you're interacting with at length as your baby. Yeah, 236 00:15:30,396 --> 00:15:35,276 Speaker 2: I think for many people there is a loss of identity. 237 00:15:35,916 --> 00:15:39,116 Speaker 2: And this is another place where it's so tricky, because 238 00:15:39,716 --> 00:15:43,196 Speaker 2: you could argue you've gained a dimension of your identity, 239 00:15:43,396 --> 00:15:45,636 Speaker 2: which is now you're a mother, now you're a caregiver. 240 00:15:46,916 --> 00:15:49,956 Speaker 2: But what happens for most women in this statement I'm 241 00:15:49,956 --> 00:15:53,476 Speaker 2: about to make is grounded in research, is that other 242 00:15:53,636 --> 00:15:57,996 Speaker 2: aspects of identity get sort of snuffed out by motherhood. 243 00:15:58,276 --> 00:16:03,436 Speaker 2: So it becomes much more difficult to be a friend, 244 00:16:04,076 --> 00:16:10,436 Speaker 2: a daughter, a partner, an artist. And if there isn't 245 00:16:10,436 --> 00:16:14,956 Speaker 2: a difficulty maintaining them, there's usually really pervasive guilt about 246 00:16:15,076 --> 00:16:18,436 Speaker 2: choices that are made to do anything other than caretaking. 247 00:16:19,036 --> 00:16:21,676 Speaker 2: I would say something that comes up so commonly in 248 00:16:21,716 --> 00:16:24,836 Speaker 2: the women that I work with is, no matter what 249 00:16:24,876 --> 00:16:29,076 Speaker 2: your arrangement is in terms of work and or staying 250 00:16:29,076 --> 00:16:33,756 Speaker 2: home with a baby, you feel guilty about it. So 251 00:16:33,796 --> 00:16:39,276 Speaker 2: there's that phrase that is rightfully very popular now about 252 00:16:39,316 --> 00:16:42,316 Speaker 2: how you're supposed to work like you don't have a 253 00:16:42,436 --> 00:16:44,876 Speaker 2: child and parent like you don't have a job. 254 00:16:46,076 --> 00:16:48,076 Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah, I hadn't heard that. 255 00:16:48,076 --> 00:16:49,956 Speaker 2: That's the pressure that women feel. 256 00:16:53,316 --> 00:16:55,876 Speaker 3: So one of the things that you talk about in 257 00:16:55,916 --> 00:16:59,276 Speaker 3: your book is that men and women don't tend to 258 00:16:59,356 --> 00:17:04,476 Speaker 3: experience the same identity shifts in parenthood, and that disconnect 259 00:17:04,516 --> 00:17:07,116 Speaker 3: can put a really big strain on the relationship. 260 00:17:08,436 --> 00:17:12,596 Speaker 2: There is such a difference in how men and women 261 00:17:13,156 --> 00:17:20,236 Speaker 2: experience the transition to parenthood, and that creates many of 262 00:17:20,276 --> 00:17:27,436 Speaker 2: the struggles that go on in couples who are new parents. Interestingly, 263 00:17:27,716 --> 00:17:30,716 Speaker 2: same sex couples don't take quite as much of a 264 00:17:30,796 --> 00:17:36,036 Speaker 2: hit in terms of their relationship satisfaction as heterosexual couples do, 265 00:17:37,316 --> 00:17:43,636 Speaker 2: and not coincidentally, same sex couples across the transition to 266 00:17:43,676 --> 00:17:48,196 Speaker 2: parenthood have a more equitable division of labor. The reason 267 00:17:48,796 --> 00:17:52,396 Speaker 2: I chose to focus on what goes on in heterosexual 268 00:17:52,436 --> 00:17:57,316 Speaker 2: couples is that it tells us quite a lot about 269 00:17:57,396 --> 00:18:03,556 Speaker 2: what ails us at the society level, meaning it tells 270 00:18:03,636 --> 00:18:06,116 Speaker 2: us just how far we still have to go in 271 00:18:06,236 --> 00:18:13,036 Speaker 2: terms of equality. There is this terribly unfortunate reverting to 272 00:18:13,276 --> 00:18:18,316 Speaker 2: traditional gender roles for heterosexual couples, and suddenly, even if 273 00:18:18,436 --> 00:18:21,556 Speaker 2: a couple had worked very hard to have a sort 274 00:18:21,596 --> 00:18:26,476 Speaker 2: of egalitarian arrangement, suddenly they've lost that when they're new parents, 275 00:18:26,716 --> 00:18:30,716 Speaker 2: and suddenly the division of responsibility around the house and 276 00:18:30,756 --> 00:18:35,036 Speaker 2: with childcare is not equal. So I really wanted to 277 00:18:35,676 --> 00:18:41,956 Speaker 2: illuminate just how much it matters that the strain of 278 00:18:42,156 --> 00:18:46,556 Speaker 2: new motherhood is greater than the strain of new fatherhood. 279 00:18:47,676 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 2: And again, I want to be careful to say that's 280 00:18:49,996 --> 00:18:54,516 Speaker 2: not speculation or opinion, that's there. You know, the research 281 00:18:54,556 --> 00:18:58,556 Speaker 2: on this is robust that women experience the transition to 282 00:18:58,636 --> 00:19:02,836 Speaker 2: parenthood in a very different way from how men experience 283 00:19:02,916 --> 00:19:04,236 Speaker 2: the transition to parenthood. 284 00:19:04,916 --> 00:19:08,276 Speaker 3: Yeah, what are working theories around why this is so? 285 00:19:08,516 --> 00:19:09,236 Speaker 1: Is it? 286 00:19:09,236 --> 00:19:12,916 Speaker 3: It's obviously a very very challenging question to answer empirically, 287 00:19:13,036 --> 00:19:15,476 Speaker 3: but I'm curious to know what theories exist out there. 288 00:19:15,996 --> 00:19:18,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I would say the prevailing theories that 289 00:19:18,956 --> 00:19:22,396 Speaker 2: this has everything to do with socialization and the ways 290 00:19:22,436 --> 00:19:28,516 Speaker 2: in which men are even now discouraged from taking on 291 00:19:29,076 --> 00:19:34,276 Speaker 2: too fully the role of caregiving at the expense of breadwinning, 292 00:19:34,556 --> 00:19:37,196 Speaker 2: and the opposite would be true for women. That you know, 293 00:19:37,276 --> 00:19:41,076 Speaker 2: sort of the pinnacle of being a proper adult woman 294 00:19:41,236 --> 00:19:43,276 Speaker 2: is to become a mother and to fully adopt that 295 00:19:43,436 --> 00:19:47,796 Speaker 2: into your identity. So largely I think this can be 296 00:19:47,876 --> 00:19:51,516 Speaker 2: explained by these profoundly different ways that men and women 297 00:19:51,716 --> 00:19:56,796 Speaker 2: are socialized. And there is all kinds of really interesting 298 00:19:57,156 --> 00:20:03,036 Speaker 2: neuroscience research that suggests there are biological bases for some 299 00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:06,876 Speaker 2: of this, and that you know, women's brains are wired 300 00:20:06,996 --> 00:20:11,476 Speaker 2: to be highly attentive to their offspring, and that explains 301 00:20:12,396 --> 00:20:16,676 Speaker 2: the very aggravating situation of baby cries in the night 302 00:20:16,716 --> 00:20:18,916 Speaker 2: and somehow dad doesn't hear it, and mom hears it 303 00:20:18,956 --> 00:20:19,796 Speaker 2: and has to go. 304 00:20:19,876 --> 00:20:20,476 Speaker 1: Deal with it. 305 00:20:21,116 --> 00:20:24,996 Speaker 2: I saw a really, really funny Instagram reel a while 306 00:20:25,076 --> 00:20:28,636 Speaker 2: back that was a woman getting in bed on her 307 00:20:28,756 --> 00:20:31,996 Speaker 2: husband's side. Like the husband was not in the scene. 308 00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:35,036 Speaker 2: She's getting in bed on his side, and she says, 309 00:20:35,116 --> 00:20:37,836 Speaker 2: I thought I'd try sleeping over here tonight since apparently 310 00:20:37,916 --> 00:20:40,036 Speaker 2: the baby's cries can't be heard from here. 311 00:20:42,716 --> 00:20:44,396 Speaker 1: Oh that's so fun. I love it. 312 00:20:47,876 --> 00:20:49,956 Speaker 3: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 313 00:20:49,956 --> 00:21:06,476 Speaker 3: of plans. Ambivalence is a word you come back to 314 00:21:06,676 --> 00:21:09,436 Speaker 3: over and over and over again in your book book, 315 00:21:09,556 --> 00:21:13,316 Speaker 3: and you talk about so many of your clients in 316 00:21:13,396 --> 00:21:18,196 Speaker 3: therapy being shocked by the conflicting emotions that they have 317 00:21:18,316 --> 00:21:21,116 Speaker 3: towards motherhood. After becoming a mother. 318 00:21:22,196 --> 00:21:28,516 Speaker 2: I think oftentimes there's this experience of just profound, fierce 319 00:21:28,596 --> 00:21:34,796 Speaker 2: love for your baby coupled with boredom, feeling bored by 320 00:21:34,796 --> 00:21:37,996 Speaker 2: your baby, pulling your hair out because you can't figure 321 00:21:38,036 --> 00:21:40,636 Speaker 2: out what your baby needs, or because you're so exhausted 322 00:21:40,636 --> 00:21:43,476 Speaker 2: and frazzled that they're not sleeping for longer than twenty minutes. 323 00:21:44,396 --> 00:21:48,676 Speaker 2: True mental health is about the freedom to feel whatever 324 00:21:48,716 --> 00:21:53,156 Speaker 2: there is to feel, the being awake to all of 325 00:21:53,196 --> 00:21:56,676 Speaker 2: what is beautiful and wonderful in life and also all 326 00:21:56,716 --> 00:22:01,036 Speaker 2: of what is ugly and painful. That is well being, 327 00:22:01,116 --> 00:22:07,196 Speaker 2: that is mental health. So in some ways, that ambivalence 328 00:22:07,396 --> 00:22:10,356 Speaker 2: that new moms feel is you know, you could kind 329 00:22:10,356 --> 00:22:13,076 Speaker 2: of argue that that's like the height of mental health 330 00:22:13,156 --> 00:22:15,436 Speaker 2: to be feeling like all the channels are open and 331 00:22:15,436 --> 00:22:18,916 Speaker 2: they're feeling all of these emotions even when they conflict. 332 00:22:20,236 --> 00:22:23,596 Speaker 2: But it is really important to say that that array 333 00:22:23,636 --> 00:22:27,116 Speaker 2: of emotion, it's not just that it's a bunch of 334 00:22:27,556 --> 00:22:30,476 Speaker 2: different emotions that can kind of fit neatly together. It's 335 00:22:30,516 --> 00:22:33,716 Speaker 2: that they often are in direct opposition to each other. 336 00:22:34,236 --> 00:22:35,436 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. 337 00:22:35,756 --> 00:22:40,196 Speaker 2: So for example, I have worked with so many women 338 00:22:40,276 --> 00:22:43,996 Speaker 2: and I felt this myself, who say, I am so 339 00:22:44,276 --> 00:22:48,516 Speaker 2: desperate for breathing room, I'm so desperate for space from 340 00:22:48,556 --> 00:22:53,356 Speaker 2: my baby, and I can't bear to leave my baby, 341 00:22:53,476 --> 00:22:55,716 Speaker 2: you know, like it's really makes no sense on the 342 00:22:55,716 --> 00:22:57,516 Speaker 2: face of it, Like, wait a second, if you're desperate 343 00:22:57,516 --> 00:23:00,076 Speaker 2: for breathing room, then leave your baby with someone else 344 00:23:00,116 --> 00:23:03,396 Speaker 2: and go get it. That's where that tortured state comes in, like, 345 00:23:03,436 --> 00:23:04,796 Speaker 2: how can this possibly be. 346 00:23:05,596 --> 00:23:08,156 Speaker 3: A lot of the time you hear people say with 347 00:23:08,236 --> 00:23:12,476 Speaker 3: a caveat my child, but or I love my partner butt, 348 00:23:13,196 --> 00:23:18,476 Speaker 3: and we feel almost compelled to justify that love before 349 00:23:19,076 --> 00:23:23,796 Speaker 3: we criticize any part of the relationship or the process of, 350 00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:25,156 Speaker 3: in this case, raising a child. 351 00:23:25,716 --> 00:23:27,476 Speaker 1: Can you tell me a little bit more about that. 352 00:23:28,116 --> 00:23:32,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a tension that exists when you 353 00:23:32,196 --> 00:23:36,636 Speaker 2: use the word butt between two feeling states that you're expressing, 354 00:23:36,876 --> 00:23:40,716 Speaker 2: and the tension says one of these needs to be resolved, 355 00:23:41,396 --> 00:23:45,156 Speaker 2: one of these is more true than the other, one 356 00:23:45,156 --> 00:23:49,996 Speaker 2: of these is more socially sanctioned, and so I'm going 357 00:23:50,036 --> 00:23:51,956 Speaker 2: to make sure I say it before I say this 358 00:23:51,996 --> 00:23:56,196 Speaker 2: other more risky one. And I love my child that 359 00:23:56,236 --> 00:23:59,196 Speaker 2: comes before so many other statements. I think that just 360 00:23:59,276 --> 00:24:03,156 Speaker 2: goes back to this whole problem of the taboo, you know, 361 00:24:03,236 --> 00:24:08,956 Speaker 2: incredibly strong taboo against revealing the challenges and the hardships 362 00:24:09,196 --> 00:24:10,636 Speaker 2: of motherhood. Hm. 363 00:24:11,636 --> 00:24:14,396 Speaker 3: There's actually a passage from your book that I would 364 00:24:14,436 --> 00:24:17,436 Speaker 3: love if you could just read for us, Molly, And 365 00:24:17,876 --> 00:24:22,396 Speaker 3: it's a statement that you make about being a parent 366 00:24:22,436 --> 00:24:23,516 Speaker 3: to a second child. 367 00:24:27,516 --> 00:24:31,916 Speaker 2: Okay, when my boys were younger, there were times I 368 00:24:31,956 --> 00:24:34,556 Speaker 2: felt pretty certain that I would have been better off 369 00:24:34,636 --> 00:24:39,316 Speaker 2: with only one child. I know some readers are thinking, what, 370 00:24:40,436 --> 00:24:43,716 Speaker 2: how can she say that? Doesn't she know her younger 371 00:24:43,796 --> 00:24:49,396 Speaker 2: son could read this someday and be devastated. Well, I'm 372 00:24:49,436 --> 00:24:53,196 Speaker 2: not worried about that. I have faith that my second 373 00:24:53,276 --> 00:24:57,716 Speaker 2: child will recognize the enormous difference between believing I might 374 00:24:57,756 --> 00:24:59,876 Speaker 2: have been better suited to be the mother of an 375 00:24:59,876 --> 00:25:05,836 Speaker 2: only child and regretting his existence. It was never him 376 00:25:06,116 --> 00:25:10,316 Speaker 2: I sometimes wished weren't around. It was the dynamic of 377 00:25:10,316 --> 00:25:13,756 Speaker 2: my two children together and the sheer degree of stimulation 378 00:25:14,076 --> 00:25:18,076 Speaker 2: in my immediate environment that sometimes made me think this 379 00:25:18,116 --> 00:25:22,796 Speaker 2: isn't the greatest fit for me. If anyone is disparaging 380 00:25:22,836 --> 00:25:25,516 Speaker 2: me for having felt that way and for putting it 381 00:25:25,556 --> 00:25:28,716 Speaker 2: down here on the page, that is a reflection of 382 00:25:28,756 --> 00:25:32,236 Speaker 2: the very reason I wanted to write this book. The 383 00:25:32,316 --> 00:25:36,596 Speaker 2: complex truths of motherhood will continue to make everyone uncomfortable 384 00:25:36,716 --> 00:25:43,676 Speaker 2: and ashamed until they're articulated readily and repeatedly. My love 385 00:25:43,716 --> 00:25:47,996 Speaker 2: for Quinn, my second son, is deep and fierce. I 386 00:25:48,036 --> 00:25:51,796 Speaker 2: do not favor Noah over him. There is nothing I 387 00:25:51,796 --> 00:25:55,396 Speaker 2: wouldn't do to protect him, and there is no threat 388 00:25:55,436 --> 00:25:58,356 Speaker 2: more ominous than the threat of losing either one of them. 389 00:25:59,716 --> 00:26:02,716 Speaker 2: It's silly that I'm even saying all this, but therein 390 00:26:02,836 --> 00:26:06,476 Speaker 2: lies the problem. We are afraid that if we give 391 00:26:06,556 --> 00:26:10,556 Speaker 2: voice to the darker, less acceptable feasts of our experience 392 00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:17,996 Speaker 2: as mothers, this will somehow render the prettier, acceptable facets untrue. 393 00:26:18,196 --> 00:26:20,436 Speaker 3: I love that you just double down in that moment 394 00:26:20,596 --> 00:26:22,516 Speaker 3: and said it like it was. You were like, I 395 00:26:22,556 --> 00:26:25,596 Speaker 3: know y'all are judging me right now, and I'm just 396 00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:28,756 Speaker 3: going to keep saying it anyway. And that's a powerful 397 00:26:29,076 --> 00:26:31,996 Speaker 3: mic drop moment that I'm just grateful that you didn't. 398 00:26:32,356 --> 00:26:34,116 Speaker 1: And I'm sure it was really hard to write. I'm 399 00:26:34,116 --> 00:26:35,316 Speaker 1: sure that took a lot of courage. 400 00:26:35,556 --> 00:26:37,636 Speaker 2: Yes, it was hard even to put the words on 401 00:26:37,676 --> 00:26:44,036 Speaker 2: the page, and harder still to publish it. There's such 402 00:26:44,076 --> 00:26:47,756 Speaker 2: a taboo against exposing, you know, the dark side of motherhood, 403 00:26:48,436 --> 00:26:53,396 Speaker 2: and a really common thing that people say when they 404 00:26:53,436 --> 00:26:57,436 Speaker 2: hear about some grievance that a mother has about motherhood 405 00:26:57,956 --> 00:27:02,276 Speaker 2: is well, then maybe you shouldn't have had kids. And 406 00:27:02,476 --> 00:27:06,756 Speaker 2: this just fascinates and sort of bewilders me, because nobody 407 00:27:06,836 --> 00:27:10,116 Speaker 2: says that about any other realm of life in which 408 00:27:10,156 --> 00:27:14,076 Speaker 2: there are mixed feelings, Like if you have grievances about 409 00:27:14,116 --> 00:27:18,076 Speaker 2: your husband, people don't say, well, then maybe you shouldn't 410 00:27:18,076 --> 00:27:21,836 Speaker 2: have gotten married. Right, It's just assumed that marriage is 411 00:27:21,876 --> 00:27:24,756 Speaker 2: hard and that occasionally you're gonna have problems with your partner. 412 00:27:25,036 --> 00:27:28,196 Speaker 2: Or if you're complaining about some aspect of your work, 413 00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:33,516 Speaker 2: nobody says, well, then maybe you shouldn't be employed. You. So, 414 00:27:33,876 --> 00:27:38,796 Speaker 2: in every other realm, there's permission to have the good 415 00:27:38,836 --> 00:27:42,156 Speaker 2: stuff and the less good stuff. But if you give 416 00:27:42,276 --> 00:27:45,996 Speaker 2: voice to the less good stuff in the realm of motherhood, 417 00:27:46,236 --> 00:27:49,396 Speaker 2: it's risky. People say, then why do you sign up 418 00:27:49,396 --> 00:27:54,156 Speaker 2: for this as if it's supposed to be purely wonderful 419 00:27:54,516 --> 00:27:55,396 Speaker 2: at all times. 420 00:27:56,716 --> 00:27:57,636 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. 421 00:27:58,036 --> 00:28:01,676 Speaker 3: There's an expectations problem here, which is the expectation society 422 00:28:01,716 --> 00:28:05,956 Speaker 3: sets around what the experience of transitioning to motherhood will 423 00:28:06,036 --> 00:28:10,996 Speaker 3: be like. Tell me a bit about how expectations broadly 424 00:28:11,916 --> 00:28:14,196 Speaker 3: lead to suffering. In the context of motherhood. 425 00:28:14,956 --> 00:28:19,436 Speaker 2: Pain is inevitable, both emotional pain and physical pain. We 426 00:28:19,516 --> 00:28:24,876 Speaker 2: do not get through life without experiencing pain. Suffering is 427 00:28:24,956 --> 00:28:29,196 Speaker 2: when there's pain plus some kind of resistance to the pain, 428 00:28:30,156 --> 00:28:33,916 Speaker 2: and that Resistance could take many different forms. It could 429 00:28:33,916 --> 00:28:38,276 Speaker 2: be that you're wishing it away. It could be that 430 00:28:38,316 --> 00:28:41,516 Speaker 2: you're telling yourself this shouldn't be happening to me. It 431 00:28:41,556 --> 00:28:44,116 Speaker 2: could be that you're racking your brain trying to understand 432 00:28:44,156 --> 00:28:47,356 Speaker 2: why it's happening to you. So I'm using that term 433 00:28:47,436 --> 00:28:52,476 Speaker 2: resistance very broadly. And what I have wished for so 434 00:28:52,716 --> 00:28:56,476 Speaker 2: much in the realm of motherhood is that we could 435 00:28:56,476 --> 00:29:00,396 Speaker 2: all just feel the pain of it, without the suffering, 436 00:29:01,396 --> 00:29:05,796 Speaker 2: because there is no getting around how hard it is 437 00:29:05,956 --> 00:29:13,796 Speaker 2: to be a mother. I think offering comes when we 438 00:29:14,396 --> 00:29:19,476 Speaker 2: believe everyone else is having an easier time, and therefore 439 00:29:19,516 --> 00:29:22,476 Speaker 2: we start to wonder what's wrong with us. Maybe I'm 440 00:29:22,516 --> 00:29:26,196 Speaker 2: just not cut out for this. Maybe motherhood isn't a 441 00:29:26,236 --> 00:29:29,956 Speaker 2: good fit for me. I missed an important memo. You know, 442 00:29:30,436 --> 00:29:33,116 Speaker 2: all the things you might say to yourself if you're 443 00:29:33,236 --> 00:29:37,076 Speaker 2: under the illusion that other people are having an easier 444 00:29:37,116 --> 00:29:38,076 Speaker 2: time in motherhood. 445 00:29:39,956 --> 00:29:42,476 Speaker 3: There's a beautiful metaphor that you paint at the end 446 00:29:42,476 --> 00:29:45,996 Speaker 3: of the book, Molly, about what that shift in identity 447 00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:49,476 Speaker 3: in motherhood is and what it looks like. So there's 448 00:29:49,476 --> 00:29:52,836 Speaker 3: this scene where your son, Quinn, who's four and a 449 00:29:52,836 --> 00:29:55,836 Speaker 3: half of the time, has a nightmare in the middle 450 00:29:55,836 --> 00:29:57,396 Speaker 3: of the night, and he comes to join you and 451 00:29:57,396 --> 00:30:00,556 Speaker 3: your husband in bed. Do you mind sharing that story 452 00:30:00,596 --> 00:30:01,036 Speaker 3: with us? 453 00:30:01,796 --> 00:30:06,116 Speaker 2: Yeah. He used to do this very funny thing, which 454 00:30:06,316 --> 00:30:12,876 Speaker 2: was that rather than climbing into bed between my husband 455 00:30:12,916 --> 00:30:16,876 Speaker 2: and me, he always wanted to lie down where I was. 456 00:30:17,836 --> 00:30:19,996 Speaker 2: And his way of putting that was let me trade 457 00:30:20,036 --> 00:30:23,636 Speaker 2: places with you. So he would come to my side 458 00:30:23,636 --> 00:30:25,636 Speaker 2: of the bed and say, let me trade places with you. 459 00:30:26,036 --> 00:30:29,596 Speaker 2: And what he meant by that was you scooch over 460 00:30:30,196 --> 00:30:32,836 Speaker 2: so that I can lie down write where you were. 461 00:30:34,116 --> 00:30:37,236 Speaker 2: As I write in the book quote, it's as if 462 00:30:37,276 --> 00:30:40,356 Speaker 2: he needs to sink his little body into the imprint 463 00:30:40,396 --> 00:30:43,156 Speaker 2: of mine and rest his head on the exact part 464 00:30:43,196 --> 00:30:46,476 Speaker 2: of the pillow where mine left its mark. And once 465 00:30:46,516 --> 00:30:49,396 Speaker 2: he has done so, he is asleep in an instant. 466 00:30:50,556 --> 00:30:54,076 Speaker 2: And I think this is the beauty and the curse 467 00:30:54,236 --> 00:30:58,676 Speaker 2: of motherhood, displaced by the person I love so fiercely 468 00:30:59,236 --> 00:31:02,956 Speaker 2: that I don't mind, and I do, you know, I 469 00:31:02,996 --> 00:31:06,836 Speaker 2: want to be really careful to say that I did 470 00:31:06,916 --> 00:31:08,916 Speaker 2: mind for quite a while, and that was part of 471 00:31:08,916 --> 00:31:10,716 Speaker 2: the way, was part of the struggle. And I think 472 00:31:10,836 --> 00:31:13,596 Speaker 2: most women feel that way. That There's something really really 473 00:31:13,676 --> 00:31:18,476 Speaker 2: difficult about having to kind of create space for two 474 00:31:18,676 --> 00:31:22,236 Speaker 2: where there once was only one. And maybe what I 475 00:31:22,276 --> 00:31:25,436 Speaker 2: had earned over time was a kind of confidence that 476 00:31:25,476 --> 00:31:27,756 Speaker 2: even though I wasn't in my same exact place where 477 00:31:27,796 --> 00:31:31,116 Speaker 2: I was before, I would be okay in this new place. 478 00:31:57,036 --> 00:32:00,156 Speaker 3: Hey, thanks so much for listening. We'll link to Molly's 479 00:32:00,156 --> 00:32:02,956 Speaker 3: book in the show notes. Next week, join me for 480 00:32:03,076 --> 00:32:07,356 Speaker 3: my conversation with psychotherapist Alan Gordon. He has a radically 481 00:32:07,436 --> 00:32:11,916 Speaker 3: straightforward and accessible approach to treating chronic pain. And if 482 00:32:11,956 --> 00:32:14,876 Speaker 3: you enjoyed this conversation, we on the Slight Change team 483 00:32:14,916 --> 00:32:17,396 Speaker 3: would be so grateful if you shared this episode with 484 00:32:17,476 --> 00:32:20,156 Speaker 3: someone you know, it helps us get the word out 485 00:32:20,236 --> 00:32:23,156 Speaker 3: so we can keep making more episodes for you. Thanks 486 00:32:23,196 --> 00:32:36,116 Speaker 3: so much. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, 487 00:32:36,196 --> 00:32:39,916 Speaker 3: and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change 488 00:32:39,916 --> 00:32:44,236 Speaker 3: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate 489 00:32:44,276 --> 00:32:48,876 Speaker 3: Parkinson Morgan, our senior producer Trisha Bbida, and our engineer 490 00:32:49,036 --> 00:32:52,996 Speaker 3: Eric o'bwang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and 491 00:32:53,116 --> 00:32:56,596 Speaker 3: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of 492 00:32:56,636 --> 00:32:59,676 Speaker 3: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so a big 493 00:32:59,716 --> 00:33:03,276 Speaker 3: thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special 494 00:33:03,316 --> 00:33:06,316 Speaker 3: thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a slight change 495 00:33:06,316 --> 00:33:09,876 Speaker 3: of plans on Instagram as doctor Maya Shunker See you 496 00:33:09,916 --> 00:33:10,356 Speaker 3: next week.