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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb. Today I have a special interview

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Speaker 2: to present you with. I recorded this last week and

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Speaker 2: it is going to be a discussion of mind drama,

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Speaker 2: the Science of rumination, or how to Outwit your Inner

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Speaker 2: Defeatist by Donna Jackson Nakazawa. I'm going to hold the

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Speaker 2: book up here for folks who are joining us on

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Speaker 2: video on Netflix. You can find this book wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your books right now, and as you'll see, I

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Speaker 2: highly recommend it. I thought this was a terrific read

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Speaker 2: and it is a very important topic. Donna Jackson Nakazawa

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Speaker 2: is the author of five books that explore the intersection

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Speaker 2: of neuroscience, stress and emotion, including Girls on the Brink,

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Speaker 2: which was named one of the best health books of

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Speaker 2: the Year by The Washington Post, The Angel and the

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Speaker 2: Assassin named one of the best books of the Year

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Speaker 2: by Wired magazine, and Childhood Disrupted, a finalist for the

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Speaker 2: Books for a Better Life Award. Her work has appeared

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Speaker 2: in Wired, The Boston Globe, The Washington Post, Health Affairs,

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Speaker 2: stat Psychology Today, and psychotherapy networker. She has appeared on

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Speaker 2: Today in NPR and is a regular speaker at universities

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Speaker 2: and organizations including the Childmind Institute, Harvard Science, UCA Health,

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Speaker 2: and Rutger's Health. It was a real honor to chat

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Speaker 2: with Donna Jackson Donkazawa. Without further ado, let's jump right

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Speaker 2: into the interview. Hi, donad Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, Rob and looking forward to it.

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Speaker 2: The new book is Mind Drama, The Science of Rumination

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Speaker 2: and How to Outwit your Inner Defeatist. And when I

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Speaker 2: saw the title of this book, when I saw who

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Speaker 2: had written it, I knew that we had to have

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Speaker 2: you on the show. This is something that I struggle

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Speaker 2: with a fair amount in my life, and according to

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Speaker 2: your book, whole lot of us do. So to start off,

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Speaker 2: would you mind just defining what rumination is?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely so, Rumination is kind of an interesting word, because

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Speaker 3: if we think of it in the common vernacular, right,

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Speaker 3: it's those thoughts spirally and those thought loops that we

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Speaker 3: get stuck in and they feel so terrible, sounds like

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Speaker 3: you know what I'm talking about, and we can't get

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Speaker 3: out of them. We load the same reels over and

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Speaker 3: over again, and we want to get out, but our

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Speaker 3: brain is really terrible at helping us exit them. But

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Speaker 3: when you look at the word rumination itself, something I

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Speaker 3: love about it as a writer is that it has

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Speaker 3: two meanings. There are a few words that have two

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Speaker 3: meanings in the dictionary, like cleave. You can cleave too something,

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Speaker 3: or you can cleave it and cut it away. Rumination

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Speaker 3: is very similar. It can be and most often is

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Speaker 3: for us as humans negative recursive, brooding, overthinking, replaying, rehashing,

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Speaker 3: future judging, self criticizing, and judging others. But it also

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Speaker 3: means to ponder, to muse, to id, to inspire, and

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Speaker 3: so really I wanted to dig into that.

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Speaker 2: So what's actually happening in our brains when we are ruminating,

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Speaker 2: when we're caught.

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Speaker 3: In this loop, Well it's pretty bad. And problematically, one

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Speaker 3: third of us don't even know what the word rumination means,

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Speaker 3: and yet science shows we're doing it more than we

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Speaker 3: ever have before, probably not a surprise to any of us,

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Speaker 3: because we're experiencing it in real time, and that's really

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Speaker 3: a problem because you cannot solve a problem you've never named. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: science has been plunging ahead, which is one of the

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Speaker 3: things I love about writing about science, right, because you

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Speaker 3: get to close that gap between what neuroscientists are doing

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Speaker 3: in the lab and what we're able to use in

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Speaker 3: our living rooms. So when scientists have been looking into

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Speaker 3: where room nation happens in the brain, it happens in

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Speaker 3: this one area known as the default mode network. Now,

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Speaker 3: probably a lot of your listeners have heard about the

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Speaker 3: default mode network. It used to be thought of as

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Speaker 3: kind of this nothing burger in the brain that it

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Speaker 3: really didn't do very much. It was just kind of

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Speaker 3: think of your car idling in the driveway, not really

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Speaker 3: in gear. Not true. fMRI scans show that the seat

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Speaker 3: of our ruminating thoughts is the default mode network. And

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Speaker 3: as the word implies, or the same the title implies,

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Speaker 3: it's a network of three areas. One is in the

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Speaker 3: front of your brain, one is in the side, and

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Speaker 3: one is in the back. When you're a ruminating rob

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Speaker 3: this area, this network is a blocked circuit. It closes down,

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Speaker 3: It spins and spins like a top. That's really what

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Speaker 3: it feels like, right. And one area is serving up

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Speaker 3: a lot of mental imagery, one area is serving up

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Speaker 3: a lot out of intense emotion, and one area is

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Speaker 3: serving up that clutch, sort of contracted feeling that we

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Speaker 3: get when we're caught in our icky, sticky little thought loops.

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Speaker 3: And the problem is that this is a survival response

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Speaker 3: gone rogue. Your brain's trying to protect you. It just

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Speaker 3: doesn't know how to stop, and we have to actually

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Speaker 3: use tools to intervene and get out of it. Our

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Speaker 3: brain is terrible at it alone.

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Speaker 2: So it's kind of like a cycle and a dryer,

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Speaker 2: except it's not actually going to ever finish the load. Right.

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Speaker 3: I love that I'm going to steal that one. I

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Speaker 3: think of it as like an airport on lockdown, and

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Speaker 3: the planes can tax you around and around, but nothing

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Speaker 3: can fly in and nothing can play out. And that's

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Speaker 3: really not healthy for us because rumination and the degree

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Speaker 3: to which we get stuck in those thought loops is

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Speaker 3: the biggest pre diagnostic factor or risk factor for everything

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Speaker 3: we don't want to have in life, depression, anxiety, cognitive decline,

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Speaker 3: lack of focus, forgetfulness, substance use, eating disorders. And that

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Speaker 3: work has been done in clinical populations for a long time.

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Speaker 3: What's new is that we can see where it's happening

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Speaker 3: in the brain. We can see how the brain. This

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Speaker 3: area of the brain becomes locked down and unable to

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Speaker 3: interface with two hundred and sixty seven other areas of

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Speaker 3: the brain that we need for the kind of creativity

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Speaker 3: you bring to this show, for the rapid thinking that

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Speaker 3: we have to bring two important conversations to the ideation

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Speaker 3: for what do I want to do next with my life?

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Speaker 3: To like what do I need to say to my

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Speaker 3: teenager or my girlfriend or my spouse about this tricky

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Speaker 3: thing that we're going through. Those areas are offline and

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Speaker 3: we know it, right, don't you know it? When you're

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Speaker 3: ruminating kit you feel it like I can't get there.

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Speaker 2: It begins to it feels like a cage. You know,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't feel like a productive process. But that's one

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Speaker 2: of the things that I thought was so amazing in

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Speaker 2: the book, was like really like defining it as what

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Speaker 2: it is, this this loop that you're stuck on, and

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Speaker 2: then on some level you still keep engaging with it

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Speaker 2: because it feels like you're solving a problem. Right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a false what researchers call effort, false effort

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Speaker 3: full control, right, Like it's a seductive thing. I mean

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Speaker 3: sometimes it's almost like chewing on a tooth right they

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Speaker 3: got pulled out yesterday. It's like you keep going there

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Speaker 3: in your mouth because it's like, wait, you know, I'm

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Speaker 3: sure that if I just keep looking there, I'll be

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Speaker 3: able to get this to heal. But in fact, the

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Speaker 3: very opposite happens. We're exerting control over our environment by

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Speaker 3: thinking about it. We never get to a solution because

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Speaker 3: we've literally shut down the solution task positive areas of

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Speaker 3: our brain, and we're seduced over and over into thinking that,

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Speaker 3: you know, another hour on the couch, another half hour

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Speaker 3: in the rabbit hole, will be drived to go pick

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Speaker 3: up our kids, or you know, do the laundry. We're

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Speaker 3: going to get somewhere, but the relief never comes. We

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Speaker 3: actually just fill our body with these terrible hormones and

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Speaker 3: chemicals that are really bad for us over time and

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Speaker 3: keep us locked in the stress response, and we do

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Speaker 3: something else, We throw down more neural tracks so that

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Speaker 3: we're likely to fall back into the same thought loops

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Speaker 3: tomorrow and the next day, like a bowling ball going down.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, so everyone struggles with this, or I guess

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Speaker 2: the better way to ask this question is what is

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Speaker 2: it like to not struggle? With rumination at least on

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Speaker 2: some level. Are there people out there conceivably that.

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Speaker 3: Do not well. We don't really know the answer to that.

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Speaker 3: What we do know is that we're doing it more

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Speaker 3: than we ever have before. On fMRI scan, neuroscientists can

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Speaker 3: show that these areas the brain are active in an

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Speaker 3: unhealthy way more of the time and also correlate to

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Speaker 3: the higher levels of distress that we're feeling and that

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Speaker 3: show up on all the epidemiological studies that are being

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Speaker 3: done about our current state of well being. And it

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Speaker 3: kind of makes sense, right because we're just out there

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Speaker 3: being blasted with this fire hose of fear and outrage

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Speaker 3: all the time. More of our lives are online, even

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Speaker 3: at work, like things are on Slack or email, and

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Speaker 3: we don't get the human context for what's really happening here.

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Speaker 3: So I do just for a second, I want to

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Speaker 3: talk about evolutionary biology. It's a little nerdy, but there's

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Speaker 3: a reason why this is a survival response gone wrong,

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Speaker 3: and we have to kind of step way way way

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Speaker 3: back in time through evolutionary biology. So a long time ago,

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Speaker 3: when we were sitting around the communal fire, if people

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Speaker 3: were poking fun at you or rolling their eyes that

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Speaker 3: you wrot elbowing each other and giggling. This was like

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Speaker 3: a really dangerous proposition because it meant that you, and

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Speaker 3: not only you, but your gene pool, which we care

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Speaker 3: a lot about, could be set at the edge of

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Speaker 3: the tribe. We could be not the first to get

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Speaker 3: the good tubers or meet on the fire. If you're

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Speaker 3: set all the way outside the tribe because you've been

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Speaker 3: socially or emotionally ostracized, you are in big trouble. You'll

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Speaker 3: be picked off by you know, a predator or a

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Speaker 3: marauding tribe, or at the mercy of the elements, the snow,

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Speaker 3: of the ray and the sun, you and your gene

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Speaker 3: pool are gone. So here's the thing, and I love

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Speaker 3: this about evolutionary biology. Our immune systems evolved over time

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Speaker 3: to see the most threatening type of interaction as one

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Speaker 3: in which we are socially or emotionally dismissed or dissed

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Speaker 3: or disregarded, or given a sense that we do not

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Speaker 3: matter and we do not belong to the people who

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Speaker 3: matter to us. As soon as we get those signals,

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Speaker 3: our immune system goes into overdrive to fight and to

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Speaker 3: prepare for physical harm. That's why when you get caught

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Speaker 3: in your thought loops, do you feel like, oh I

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Speaker 3: am getting more contracted? Like do you feel the attention

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Speaker 3: in your body?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's why because we are primed to go into

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Speaker 3: this survival response. And you probably know from interviewing so

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Speaker 3: many interesting people, we are really good humans, are really

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Speaker 3: really good at going into threat responses. What are we

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Speaker 3: terrible at? We are just terrible at getting out of them.

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Speaker 2: Now, I want to come back to something you mentioned

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Speaker 2: earlier about how we're ruminating more now than ever, And

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Speaker 2: to be clear, like you're when you say that, you

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Speaker 2: mean not just like oh in our mind an age,

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Speaker 2: but likest like in the last few years, correct, like

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Speaker 2: fairly recently, we've seen this uptick.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. And so people started looking at the

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Speaker 3: default mode network more closely, sort of before and then

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Speaker 3: during and then after the pandemic, and people were looking

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Speaker 3: for rumination, they were looking for to stress levels, right,

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Speaker 3: because this is a real public health crisis but also

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Speaker 3: a terrible mental health crisis. We saw people's mental health

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Speaker 3: really deteriorate across all age groups in our population and globally,

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Speaker 3: so researchers were looking at this and one of the

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Speaker 3: by products that they found was that they were seeing

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Speaker 3: notable alterations in the function of the default mode network

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Speaker 3: over this five to six year span, and so that

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Speaker 3: other researchers were running studies to see if this over

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Speaker 3: activation of the default mode network was tied to rumination,

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Speaker 3: and the answer was yes, it was also tied to

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Speaker 3: poorer mental health outcomes and higher levels of reported distress.

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Speaker 3: So it makes sense, like, look around us, right, we

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Speaker 3: are facing climate change, school shootings, like I said, political

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Speaker 3: you know, political chaos, online outrage, and you spend a

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Speaker 3: lot of your time online. I have to spend a

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Speaker 3: lot of my time online. It's literally rigged to make

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Speaker 3: us feel this sense of social and emotional threat and fear.

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Speaker 3: So it's reavying us up into a state of rumination

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Speaker 3: while we remove the face to face time that helps

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Speaker 3: to reassure us and tell us neurobiologically that we are

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Speaker 3: safe and connected. So it's really no surprise that we're

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Speaker 3: in this state. It's just I mean, look at one

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Speaker 3: of the things I looked at when I was researching

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Speaker 3: the book was road rage. Road Rage is a sign

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Speaker 3: of rumination, Like what's that asshole doing over there in

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Speaker 3: that lane and not being able to let go of it.

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Speaker 3: Traffic fatalities are at their highest rate in twenty years,

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Speaker 3: so we see signs of this everywhere. And I really

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Speaker 3: argue in the book what a different world it would

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Speaker 3: be if we weren't stuck in our thought loobs, if

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Speaker 3: we weren't stuck in the same storylines, and we could

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Speaker 3: come out of that reomen of state and go into

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Speaker 3: the upside of rumination, which were that creativity and connectedness

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Speaker 3: that we all long for.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in the book, you you, of course walk us

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Speaker 2: through a number of different techniques and different methods physical

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Speaker 2: and internalized to help deal with this, to spiral out

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Speaker 2: of it, as you put it. And I know that

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Speaker 2: you yourself are a yoga practitioner and your practice meditation.

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Speaker 2: Like one thing that I was thinking about, especially when

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Speaker 2: reading the earlier portions of the book, was more, you

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Speaker 2: know about sort of outlying the problem I was thinking about,

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Speaker 2: like when I go into a yoga class, you know,

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Speaker 2: when I'm get away from a screen, and you know,

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Speaker 2: getting away from news feeds and getting into this place

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Speaker 2: that I see as a safe space among you people

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Speaker 2: that I feel comfortable with, and yet I'll spend like

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Speaker 2: maybe half the practice turning things off like it's it's

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Speaker 2: like it's still sort of like the loop is still

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Speaker 2: cycling down for like half the class, and it almost

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Speaker 2: always the class is almost always effective in calming things

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Speaker 2: down and clearing the mind. But it can be like

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Speaker 2: looking back on it, it's like it really, I guess

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Speaker 2: speaks to the strength of rumination that it takes so

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Speaker 2: much effort at times to just actually it off.

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Speaker 3: Well, that makes all the sense in the world, because

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Speaker 3: you're trying to apply a skill through your body to

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Speaker 3: get into a place non ruminative, or to use the

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Speaker 3: language I use in the book instead of spiraling down

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Speaker 3: to viral up right, and you're using your body to

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Speaker 3: do that. But one of the things that I found

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Speaker 3: in researching rumination is we need to use our brain

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Speaker 3: and our body together. So it's kind of like when

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Speaker 3: the body and the brain agree that we're safe, that

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Speaker 3: is a much easier way to escape our thought loops.

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Speaker 3: But the other thing I found is that, well, a

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Speaker 3: couple things I want to say, Rumination is not a

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Speaker 3: character flaw. It is truly a part of the human condition.

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Speaker 3: It separates us from other animals. It is the higher

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Speaker 3: order brain that can do threat detection, but unfortunately in

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Speaker 3: humans get lost in it and unable to escape. So

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Speaker 3: I also found that about a third of us are

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Speaker 3: kind of ashamed of it, like we and most of us,

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Speaker 3: the majority of us, do not talk about it with anyone.

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Speaker 3: You don't stand in the kitchen making dinner with your

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Speaker 3: partner or your friend going like you know what. I like,

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Speaker 3: six hours got sucked out of my day to day

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Speaker 3: because I could not stop thinking. You might say, this

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Speaker 3: is bugging me, but we don't walk around admitting to

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Speaker 3: the enormity of the problem. So it makes perfect sense

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Speaker 3: that it would take you twenty five minutes of a

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Speaker 3: fifty minute yoga class to bring it down. We don't

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Speaker 3: have tools. First, you have to go through kind of

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Speaker 3: like the layer of self criticism about doing it in

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Speaker 3: the first place, Like, oh my god, here I am

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Speaker 3: in my yoga class and I'm still thinking about what

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Speaker 3: so and so said at dinner last night. We can

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Speaker 3: drop that because everyone in the class is doing it right.

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Speaker 3: Every one around us is doing the same thing, and

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Speaker 3: we're all ruminating about the same thing. Robin, this is

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Speaker 3: the tender thing beneath all the noise and between all

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Speaker 3: the you know, beneath the writing and the book publishing.

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Speaker 3: This is the thing that struck me over and over.

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Speaker 3: We all ruminate about the same thing, whether we matter

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Speaker 3: and belong to the people and places that matter to us.

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Speaker 3: And our ruminations are begging us not to just cut

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Speaker 3: them off and feel bad about them. Our ruminations, our

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Speaker 3: signal fires from the past. They are asking us to

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Speaker 3: see them, accept them, name them, and to tend to

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Speaker 3: those stories that are coming up for us over and

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Speaker 3: over again, because we have not fully emotionally processed something

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Speaker 3: that's come up for us. So what I found is

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Speaker 3: that you load the same reels and the same stories

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Speaker 3: over and over again, you think you're getting somewhere right.

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Speaker 3: We talked about that earlier, But rumination is actually a

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Speaker 3: form of avoidance. We are trying to exert control over

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Speaker 3: situation or interaction or relationship or work issue, or a

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Speaker 3: sense of status or esteem or belonging without ever allowing

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Speaker 3: ourselves to feel the emotions beneath the story. And so

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Speaker 3: of course I had to develop a technique for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get into some of the techniques. You cover

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Speaker 2: a number of these different exercises and exercises and methods

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Speaker 2: to overcome or work through rumination to some degree. You know,

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Speaker 2: we obviously can't roll through all of them here the

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Speaker 2: listeners should pick up the book, but I know you

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Speaker 2: also deal with these in workshops. I was wondering, what

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Speaker 2: are maybe a couple of your favorites that you would

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Speaker 2: like to share with listeners that you think can easily

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Speaker 2: be shared through audio.

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Speaker 3: So I think that the most useful and helpful technique

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Speaker 3: that I found working with audiences and individuals is the

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Speaker 3: missed framework, which is based on our new understanding of

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Speaker 3: how the default mode network generates these three distinct experiences

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Speaker 3: when it gives rise to our most recursive and bothersome

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Speaker 3: thought reels. And so are you ever willing to be

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Speaker 3: a guinea pig on your own show?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely?

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Speaker 3: Okay, excellent, I thought so. So I wanted to check,

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Speaker 3: all right, So I guess what I want to ask

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Speaker 3: you is is there something and you don't have to

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Speaker 3: share the details, but you're welcome to that's totally up

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Speaker 3: to you. Is there something that's just been really sticky

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Speaker 3: and a thought reel that just keeps loading up for

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Speaker 3: you a lot in the last day or week or months.

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Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, I'll keep it to myself.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you're so human. Yes, welcome to the human race.

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Speaker 3: This means you are not a cow. So all right,

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Speaker 3: So it's going through your head. And what we're going

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Speaker 3: to do is we're going to practice the mis framework.

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Speaker 3: So I mentioned earlier that the default mode network gives

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Speaker 3: rise to our ruminations, and one area gives rise to

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Speaker 3: our mental movies and mental images. One gives rise to

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Speaker 3: our intense interior emotions. One gives rise to our somatic sensations.

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Speaker 3: And what we're going to do is we're going to

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Speaker 3: go through the misframework, which I called MISS because of course,

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Speaker 3: when we're ruminating and we're lost in a fog and

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Speaker 3: we want to get out, we desperately want to get out,

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Speaker 3: and also because it works really well as an acronym,

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Speaker 3: and writers love acronym. So m is obviously for mental movies,

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Speaker 3: eyes for intense emotions, as is for somatic sensations, and

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Speaker 3: tea is for tying it all together. Now, I want

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Speaker 3: to start with your mental movies, your mental imagery. Usually

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Speaker 3: these are reels, as we said, we've loaded many times

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Speaker 3: across a lifetime, and they start to echo the same

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Speaker 3: thing for most of us, and usually these mental movies

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Speaker 3: tell us a little bit of a story about ourselves.

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Speaker 3: It's usually believes or stories in which we're not coming

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Speaker 3: out on top right, And so generally that the easiest

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Speaker 3: way to get into the misframework is to start with

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Speaker 3: mental imagery and kind of start with a sentence like,

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Speaker 3: here're the familiar reels I've been playing a thousand times

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Speaker 3: and naming them in this way, here's my old story

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Speaker 3: of how and it can be anything, And let me

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Speaker 3: tell you this. I can give you examples that I

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Speaker 3: will do, but the language that comes from your brain,

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Speaker 3: rob is the language that your brain will pay attention

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Speaker 3: to to exit rumination. So it could start with here

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Speaker 3: is my old story of how people dismiss me, or

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Speaker 3: here's my old story of how my voice isn't heard,

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Speaker 3: or here's my old story of how no one listens

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Speaker 3: to what I have to say, or how I always

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Speaker 3: screw it up or how I miss it or get

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Speaker 3: it wrong. Does it matter what I say? It only

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Speaker 3: matters what you say. So can you start with them

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Speaker 3: for mental movies?

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Speaker 2: Okay? Yeah, and do I say it out loud or

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Speaker 2: I just say it out loud.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but no one will know what you're ruminating about,

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Speaker 3: and I guarantee you that you're going to sound just

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Speaker 3: like everyone else who's ruminating and give them a lot

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Speaker 3: of relief, honestly.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so yeah, I'm mentally picturing it right now. I'm

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Speaker 2: pitmentally picturing the some of the images that have been

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Speaker 2: playing through my head recently.

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Speaker 3: And so start with here's my story of how people

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Speaker 3: X and that is the best way to start the

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Speaker 3: MYS framework. Here's my old story of how people.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, here is my old story of how yeah,

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Speaker 2: people people view me.

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Speaker 3: Yes, okay, all right, that's a story probably not true,

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Speaker 3: but this is what our brains do to us. So

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Speaker 3: here's my old story of how people view me, which

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Speaker 3: makes me feel. Now we're going to eye for intense emotion,

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Speaker 3: and if you want, it can be very helpful for

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Speaker 3: your brain to actually name how you think people view you.

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Speaker 3: And you might not want to do that in a

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Speaker 3: public forum, right, so we'll skip over that. But if

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Speaker 3: you're doing it at a home in your own time, if

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Speaker 3: I were doing it, I might say something like, here's

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Speaker 3: my old story of how people view me, that my

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Speaker 3: voice doesn't matter or something like that. So you want

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Speaker 3: to be really specific because that granular specificity is going

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Speaker 3: to really help your brain know that you're seeing the story,

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Speaker 3: and that's very important here. So now let's go to

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Speaker 3: intense emotions. So for you, here's a my old story

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Speaker 3: of how people view me, which is X for you,

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Speaker 3: which makes me feel and it can be a shame, scared, isolated, rageful, angry.

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Speaker 3: So start from the top, here's my old story of

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Speaker 3: how people view me, and then add in the emotion

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Speaker 3: and if you want, add in how it feels to

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Speaker 3: be viewed, the way that you feel you're viewed.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, here is the story of how people view me,

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Speaker 2: or how I think people view me, and it makes

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Speaker 2: me feel anxious.

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Speaker 3: Yes, excellent, And now we're going to add an S

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Speaker 3: for somatic sensations, so you're rolling the reels and you're

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Speaker 3: acknowledging the anxiety. So now you're going to go here's

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Speaker 3: a mild story of how people view me, and there's

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Speaker 3: a story in there. Make sure that you privately acknowledge

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Speaker 3: that story. Whatever it is I suck or whatever which

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Speaker 3: makes me feel anxious, and my what part of your

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Speaker 3: body do you feel it in? You can start this

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Speaker 3: by like scanning down from the top of your heads.

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Speaker 3: Some people feel it in the back of their head,

434
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 3: their shoulders, their solar plexus, their gut churning, their heart pounding,

435
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 3: their whole body contracting.

436
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 2: You can feel it in your whole body, okay, And

437
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 2: I just identify where I feel it, yep, And you're

438
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: to start from the top.

439
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 3: Here's my old story.

440
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 2: Here's my old story about how people view me. It

441
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 2: makes me feel anxious, and I feel this kind of

442
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: in the space between my stomach and my heart.

443
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 3: Absolutely excellent. You just did the missed framework and you

444
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 3: tied it together. So I want to ask you, and

445
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 3: without any details, how old is this story?

446
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 2: This? Oh, this version of I guess you know, like

447
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 2: a lot of these things, we have different versions.

448
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 3: We have a punrative these, but you're applying it to

449
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 3: something that happened recently or that is kind of haunting

450
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 3: you and our ruminating stories, says haunt us kind of

451
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 3: like little small ghosts the trail after us and you're

452
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 3: trying to turn around and kind of hug the ghost.

453
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I'd say this this is about a year old.

454
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 3: Ghost, okay, a year old ghost okay, And having done

455
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 3: the miss framework, does it feel like it's a little

456
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 3: less spinning inside the center of your brain and just

457
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 3: maybe even two inches outside of you.

458
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 2: It really does like it really kind of it. You know,

459
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 2: now I'm thinking of it as a ghost, so kind

460
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 2: now I'm kind of adding that extra layer of visualization

461
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: to it. But I do kind of feel like it

462
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 2: was in here and now, yeah, it's just a little

463
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 2: bit outside. You know, it may snap back in, but

464
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 2: I'm a little bit removed from it.

465
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 3: And you know, I saw you smile at the end

466
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 3: of the miss framework. You went from anxious face, which

467
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,239
Speaker 3: is normal when we're trying to like thinking, you know,

468
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 3: what is this inside me that I'm carrying and have

469
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 3: carried for so long into you smiled at the end,

470
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 3: and that is your brain. And what happened inside your brain.

471
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 3: This isn't just like motivational you know, fluff people. This

472
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 3: is neuroscience. What happened in your brain on fMRI scans

473
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 3: is that you stopped the closed circuit. You stopped the storyline,

474
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 3: and your brain literally stopped its closed circuit. It's lockdown loop.

475
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,239
Speaker 3: And now your brain is lighting up and interfacing with

476
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 3: what we call the connectome of the brain, which is

477
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 3: two hundred and sixty seven areas that allow you to

478
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 3: go into ideation and creativity and awareness, and you went, wait,

479
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,719
Speaker 3: I see this. I see this as a story I've

480
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 3: been carrying. And maybe, if we're lucky, when we practice

481
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 3: the misframework, we not only exit the mind drama set

482
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 3: it outside of us just a little bit, but we

483
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 3: also kind of go like, wait a minute, this is

484
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 3: a story that maybe I don't want anymore. Maybe it's

485
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: not mine to carry. Maybe it came to me externally

486
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 3: at a time when I didn't have the flexibility to

487
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: question it or take it on, especially if it started

488
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 3: when you were a child, as it does for many

489
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 3: of us, And we get a moment where we get

490
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 3: to hear how we truly feel. And from there, what

491
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 3: I've seen in so many individuals is a kind of

492
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 3: tender awareness, a sort of emotionable compassion for ourselves and

493
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 3: what we've been putting ourselves through. And when we practice

494
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 3: this over time, in different situations with different individuals or

495
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 3: tricky people in our lives, what happens is we start

496
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 3: to find our own voice. And I did not know

497
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 3: this going into the book, but what I found in

498
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: working with people for two years is that people who

499
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 3: had not been able to voice themselves in these difficul

500
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: called interactions are in difficult relationships. They started to hear like, Okay,

501
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 3: what do I need? Like what am I not tending to?

502
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: What am I exiling here? What am I afraid to say?

503
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: What am I afraid to do? And relationships got better.

504
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 3: Some fell across the wayside because this process made it

505
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 3: clear that they were returning to the same hurtful dynamic

506
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 3: over and over and it couldn't be changed. But ninety

507
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 3: nine percent of a time, relationships got better because people

508
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 3: found voice. And that is something I want people to remember.

509
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 3: When you are in your thought loops, when you load

510
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: the same reels over and over, you lose agency, you

511
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 3: lose your voice, you lose your inner knowing of what

512
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 3: it is that you really need.

513
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, there was one of the lists of questions

514
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 2: that you knew outline in the book, one of them

515
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: that really caught my attention when I was going through

516
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: the book, and you know, part of it. I'm going

517
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: through the book to you know, to make sure I

518
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: have questions in mind and so forth, and then I'm

519
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 2: prepared for the interview. But one of them was like

520
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 2: do I want to feel like this all the time,

521
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: which is like just on its own, isolated, is such

522
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: a an empowering little nugget, you know that kind of

523
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: like wakes you out and makes you realize, oh yeah,

524
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 2: maybe I don't and oh yeah, maybe I do have

525
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: agency over this. I don't have to just be stuck

526
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: in this particular thought loop.

527
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe there's something that when I'm stuck in

528
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 3: this thought loop, I'm actually repressing or avoiding about the

529
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: agency that I do have. Like maybe this is going

530
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,719
Speaker 3: to be hard to one woman and I interviewed for

531
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 3: across a long period of time because it's important to

532
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 3: follow people so you can see how things help and

533
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,959
Speaker 3: change them and what works and what doesn't work. Her

534
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 3: husband was incredibly picky in the kitchen. He just look,

535
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: you know, you're cutting the carrots the wrong way. No,

536
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 3: you know, you put the noodles in the water too soon.

537
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 3: Such a minute little thing. But for her, after many

538
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 3: years of marriage, it was just very you know, it

539
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 3: was the proverbial water on the rock, right. And she

540
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 3: was scared, not because he was a scary person. He wasn't.

541
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 3: He was a good man, good person, but she just

542
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 3: couldn't find the voice due to her own very old

543
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 3: stories from her own growing up childhood, how she'd been

544
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 3: conditioned as a woman across her life to just say

545
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 3: you cut the carrots like that was scary. Now, I

546
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 3: watched her over time be able to articulate things about

547
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 3: what she needed that were met by her partner with

548
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 3: such grace. Sometimes the people around us are waiting for

549
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 3: us to have agency, and when we have it, they

550
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 3: grow as well. But when we're both ruminating in our

551
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 3: separate corners people, it can't happen, and nor can connection,

552
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 3: and nor can growth.

553
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: That's very well. But one thing that came to mind

554
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: when I was reading the book and sort of reflecting

555
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 2: to on other exercises that I've been exposed to or

556
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 2: you know, that I had come up in therapy and

557
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 2: so forth, was that. And I imagine you've even counted

558
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 2: this as well as like where someone is introduced to

559
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: as a particular technique and just being introduced to the

560
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: technique without necessarily doing it, it kind of gives you

561
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: a momentary relief from the issue, almost like you recognize

562
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 2: that there's an off ramp and then you're like, oh,

563
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: I can feel a certain amount of relief, there's an

564
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: off ramp, but then you don't do the practice or

565
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: you don't do the work, and then you'll wind up

566
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: in the same loop again.

567
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 3: So what you're talking about is locus of control. So

568
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 3: there is research where just talking about wanting to go

569
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 3: to therapy and calling a therapist even if you never go,

570
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 3: shows some appreciable change in individuals who say, hey, mom, dad,

571
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 3: I want to see a therapist, or to their wife

572
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: like hey Sally, I think I need some help, and

573
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 3: making a phone call but never making an appointment makes

574
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 3: some change. And the thinking is and I'm sure there's

575
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 3: a lot of thinking about this, and I'm sure people

576
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 3: listening know more about it than I do. But one

577
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 3: of the areas of thought about this is locus of controls.

578
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 3: So we have a lot of good research that depression

579
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: is often related to a loss of locus of control.

580
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 3: So what you're talking about is like, oh, there is

581
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 3: this method that I can use that gave me this

582
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 3: enormous Really, I don't know that we spent more than

583
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 3: ninety seconds. We were taking our time. Maybe we spent

584
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 3: two minutes. But if you do it yourself, you can

585
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 3: do it in sixty seconds. I do it all the

586
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 3: time for myself to catch myself, and we will avoid

587
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: doing it even though we know it gives us a

588
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 3: locus of control. We might even go like, I could

589
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 3: be doing that, but I really just feel so seduced

590
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 3: by wanting to go into my old neural trap. And

591
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 3: there's a reason for that, because we have laid these

592
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 3: neural networks over a lifetime and we have good evidence

593
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 3: of that. So researchers will take kids and they'll divide

594
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 3: them into two groups. Which two groups? How are they

595
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 3: dividing them up? Kids who are having more difficulty with

596
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 3: family dysfunction or family tension, or more distress for any reason.

597
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,919
Speaker 3: It might not be their parents home, versus kids who

598
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 3: have very low levels of family tension or psychological distress

599
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 3: or family you know, they have high family connection. And

600
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 3: they'll separate them into two groups. And by the age

601
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 3: of twelve to fifteen, the default mode network behaves very

602
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 3: differently in these two different groups of kids. In kids

603
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 3: who are experiencing more family tension or bullying, maybe not

604
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 3: at home, but at school, any kind of situation in

605
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 3: which they have had to question their mattering or their belonging,

606
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 3: Versus kids who haven't had to question that, And the

607
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 3: kids who have the default mode network goes into what's

608
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 3: called spontaneous rumination because kids have had to lay down

609
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 3: these neural tracks as children, because that is a survival technique.

610
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 3: Oh if I just don't do X, but I do

611
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 3: more of why, I will matter more, I will belong more,

612
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 3: I won't feel that I you know, I'm not making

613
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: my parents happy. Right. It goes all the way back

614
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: to the drama of the gifted child. It's that idea

615
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 3: of needing to perform for love or shape ourselves in

616
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 3: order to belong and we get really, really good at it.

617
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 3: It shows up in the brain. So in these two

618
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 3: groups of kids, the kids who had this family tension

619
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 3: or dysfunction, their brains not only went into spontaneous rumination

620
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 3: very quickly while doing simple, simple tasks. Oh what if

621
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 3: I do this wrong? Oh what are they going to

622
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 3: think of me?

623
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: Oh?

624
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 3: I screw up? Oh I mess up. They showed the

625
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 3: distress also in questionnaires about how they were feeling. They

626
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 3: perform more poorly on the task at hand. And here's

627
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 3: what blew my mind. They ruminated not just about the

628
00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 3: task at hand, but they went into global rumination where

629
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 3: every fear they'd ever had, everything they ever ruminated about,

630
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 3: whether their friend at school like them, whether their mom

631
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 3: was mad at them, whether they were good enough on

632
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 3: the soccer field, how they were doing in school, all

633
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 3: came in very quickly. We don't want that. We don't

634
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 3: want that for our kids, we don't want that for ourselves.

635
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 3: But many of us are still living that way as adults.

636
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 2: In the book, perhaps unsurprisingly, one of the many recommendations

637
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 2: that comes up is of course walking in nature, which

638
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: it's one of those things that we've I think at

639
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: this point we've all heard it a million times, and

640
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: maybe we're hearing it more and more often because of

641
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: the sort of world we've built for ourselves. You know,

642
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 2: the number of the different techniques that you focus on

643
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: have to do with shifting sensory focus, and so does

644
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 2: a lot of it kind of come down to the

645
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 2: idea that, like walking, just walking in nature is kind

646
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 2: of more in line with what we evolved to do

647
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 2: versus all of these other sort of distractions.

648
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and our brain is really really good at hooking

649
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 3: us up to nature very very quickly, because obviously, in

650
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 3: evolutionary time, it's only one billionth of a millisecond that

651
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 3: we've had all these screens and digital devices, and our

652
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 3: brains are changing to wire up to that and to

653
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 3: interface with that in a way that isn't healthy for us.

654
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 3: But our brains have had a lot longer to interface

655
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 3: with the world around us, and it can. It's so again,

656
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 3: you know, it's almost terrible to write about nature as

657
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 3: an answer because it's just really a reminder. We've heard

658
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 3: it so many times. But we can see this in

659
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 3: the brain. So we can see the default mode network

660
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 3: starts to go very quickly into its interconnected state with

661
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 3: the rest of the brain. It happens for us now.

662
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 3: So there are lots of little tricks, not tricks, but

663
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,959
Speaker 3: things we can do even better than walking in nature.

664
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 3: Sure is lying down on the grass and what does

665
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 3: that do? Well? It opens up all of our sensory

666
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 3: portals very very quickly. But it does something else, and

667
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 3: you could actually do it right now in your studio

668
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 3: after we get off this wonderful podcast. Lie on the floor.

669
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 3: It breaks the default mode networks locked perspective. You're sending

670
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 3: your brain this signal like what is happening here? You're

671
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 3: looking at the ceiling you're looking at the the sprinklers

672
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 3: and the lights and the ceiling, and you're in an

673
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 3: unusual position. We ruminate in the same places our bed,

674
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 3: our chair, our kitchen, our car. We change the place

675
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 3: even better if you're lying on the grass. There are

676
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 3: lots of other quick things we can do. I talk

677
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 3: about something called ballistic interruption, and we talked about how

678
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 3: we lay down these neural tracks over and over, which

679
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 3: makes it more much more easy for our brain to

680
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 3: slip into the old reels. We have to interrupt our

681
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 3: entrench neural wak wiring and here again. And it sounds

682
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 3: kind of hokey, so it's kind of hard for me

683
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 3: to write about it, but we see it on fMRI scans.

684
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 3: Language here too is our portal to escape. We can

685
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 3: literally get in on our thinking. Do the miss framework,

686
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 3: and then your brain can tell your brain to cut

687
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 3: off the neural loop. I don't listen to these fear

688
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 3: based thoughts. Nope, not doing this, not today, No thaggs.

689
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 3: And it sounds so silly, but this way of thinking's

690
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 3: no longer welcome here. Forget about it. I'm closing the

691
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 3: door on this. We're not going there. If you do

692
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 3: the missed framework, and you allow yourself to kind of

693
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 3: tenderly hold the emotions that you have not been allowing

694
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:50,399
Speaker 3: yourself to feel and acknowledge them and name them. And

695
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 3: then you ballistically interrupt so that your brain doesn't slip

696
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 3: slide back into that pattern. You're getting even a little

697
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 3: bit further outside. And then, as I say in the book,

698
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 3: you've got to get your body to agree. Right, you

699
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 3: can get your brain all online you talked about earlier,

700
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 3: Rob like, oh, I can feel like you know, my

701
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 3: brain wants to go right back there, like I got

702
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 3: a little ghost outside of me, but my brain is

703
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 3: going like, but we could go back, you know. And

704
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 3: that's because your body hasn't yet agreed. And so that's why.

705
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 3: And minddrop, I have a lot of mind body practices

706
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 3: that we can do again in like sixty seconds or

707
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 3: less to try to get not only the right language

708
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 3: happening and the right awareness and acceptance, but we have

709
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 3: to bring our somatic state into agreement that we're safe.

710
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 3: And Okay, there's.

711
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 2: One that you outlined that I actually tried out right

712
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 2: before the interview here with that I forget the name

713
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 2: of it. I'm sorry, but okay, it involves like raising

714
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 2: your hands here.

715
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 3: Yeaheah, the body safe breaker.

716
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:58,479
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's the one.

717
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I'm happy if we have time to

718
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 3: walk people through it. It's up to you. Sure, yeah, okay, I.

719
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 2: Think folks would take that. Don't do it while you're driving.

720
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 3: Please, don't do it while you're driving and holding a knife. Okay,

721
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 3: So really what you want to do, and this is

722
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 3: based on science around what's called cyclical sighing, which is

723
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 3: a type of sighing that literally helps bring our cortisol

724
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 3: levels down and establishes more positive emotions and a sense

725
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 3: of safety. So I'm sitting down, you're sitting down. I'm

726
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 3: going to do it. You're not going to be able

727
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 3: to really see me do it because it's you know,

728
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 3: it's audio. But I'm going to do it just because

729
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 3: I can't just talk it. I have to feel it.

730
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 3: So basically it's better if you stand up, but I'm

731
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 3: sitting so I'm going to just do it. So you're

732
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 3: just going to take like a full slow in hell

733
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 3: as you raise your arms up overhead and head. I

734
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 3: love Rob he's doing it with me, and keep your

735
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 3: arms up and like make tight fis and squeeze your

736
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 3: hands and close and open your fists and vigorously, vigorously

737
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 3: shake out your hands. So you taking this big breath,

738
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 3: fist shake your hands, let the breath out, but keep

739
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 3: your arms overhead, keep your arms up inhale again pause,

740
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 3: take in a second breath, and now let it fill

741
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 3: your whole quality and your chest into your collarbone. And

742
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 3: now let your arms come down your sidhe all the way. Oh,

743
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 3: let them fall. Feel better.

744
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 2: That's good, Yes, absolutely, so I.

745
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 3: Sort of took little science and added a few little

746
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 3: neuroscience beats to it. Another really quick thing you could

747
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 3: do and add on at the end of that, which

748
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 3: is pretty lovely, is you could take your arms, cross

749
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 3: them over your body, and our arms on our hands

750
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 3: and arms are just full of neurow scepters that signal safety.

751
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 3: Think about it. It's the first thing that you did

752
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 3: as a child when you needed something. You raised your

753
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 3: arms to be picked up. So if you take your

754
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 3: opposite hands put them on the top of your arms.

755
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 3: Think of something that you really wish that someone who

756
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 3: loved you would say to you. You don't have to

757
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 3: say it out loud, but maybe it's like you're safe

758
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 3: you're loved, use you or your name, because when you

759
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 3: use you or your name, your brain pays more attention.

760
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 3: And I would just go, like smooth my hands down

761
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 3: my arms and just keep going, Donna, You're safe, You're okay, Safe,

762
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,479
Speaker 3: You're okay. And if you do that at the end

763
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 3: of the body state Breaker, you're going to add a

764
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 3: whole other layer of neuroceptor relief. If you do the

765
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 3: miss framework, ballistic interruption and just that one exercise, and

766
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 3: they're like one hundred more in the book, And you've

767
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 3: got to grab what works for you, right Rob, Like

768
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 3: you know, if it resonates, I can see on your

769
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 3: face like that. Like for some things, we're going to

770
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 3: try them and it's gonna be like there's a lot

771
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 3: of different visualization techniques in the book. They could work

772
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 3: for some people, but they won't for others. Make your menu,

773
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,959
Speaker 3: make what works, and and stack it into your day

774
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 3: because you're going to ruminate less and you're going to

775
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 3: get back a lot of precious hours of your life.

776
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 2: Excellent. Yeah, and so many of the I guess some

777
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: of the techniques that involve language, you know, it's on

778
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: one level like having having grown up, you know, I

779
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 2: was a child in the nineties and I ended up

780
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: watching Saturday Night Live and there would be these these

781
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 2: segments with Stuart Smiley where they're making fun of like

782
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 2: positive affirmations and so like, on one level, it kind

783
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 2: of made me think for a very long time, like

784
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 2: not even consciously that like there's something silly about positive happening,

785
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 2: but but but really like like that speaks to the

786
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 2: power of language. You know that that so many of

787
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: these techniques do involve some level of like talking to

788
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 2: ourselfs like you said, using our own name, saying it

789
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 2: in a language that resonates with us. Yeah.

790
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Do you remember the Bob Newhart segment where I

791
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 3: forget who the SNL actor was, came in and she's like,

792
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 3: I have these terrible problems. He's like, I'm going to

793
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 3: fix you in sixty seconds. She's like really really and

794
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 3: he just goes stop it. It doesn't really work that way,

795
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 3: but I know what you mean. And I say in

796
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 3: the book some of these techniques, I thought, let me

797
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 3: look at the science here, because sure, that sounds really great,

798
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 3: but you know, I'm a science journalist. I don't know

799
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 3: that I feel silly. I feel silly using some of these,

800
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 3: but they work for me, and so I'm going to

801
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 3: keep doing them. I do want to talk about the

802
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 3: power of visualization because for some people it feels too

803
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 3: silly to talk to yourself, and we just grew up

804
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 3: with that same kind of coding that you did that

805
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 3: this is nonsense, so it just it might not work

806
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 3: because we feel that way. But visualization. I use a

807
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 3: visualization technique in the book that is so powerful and

808
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 3: we see in the brain when you can skip the

809
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 3: talking to yourself is what I'm trying to say, you

810
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 3: can go right to visualization because what we see on

811
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 3: fMRI scans is that visualization lights up even more areas

812
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 3: of the brain than using language. And it makes sense

813
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 3: because your pulling in images. So I talk about something

814
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 3: called the two Roads technique, and it involves your physical body,

815
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 3: but it also involves almost like creating your own internal

816
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 3: computer game in which you can choose a right path

817
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 3: and shift your body in that direction, or a left

818
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 3: handed path or the right handed path. You are going

819
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 3: to build out the most beautiful world, kind of like

820
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 3: on a computer game of all the best experiences that

821
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 3: have ever happened to all the things you wish, what

822
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: happened to you. Maybe people you loved who've died, you can.

823
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 3: My dad died when I was twelve, So I'll put

824
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 3: my hands on his face and hug him and keep walking.

825
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 3: I'll see my kids, the hikes we've taken, and the tetons,

826
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 3: and keep going and all the most beautiful moments, the

827
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 3: first time my children were laid on my chest, things

828
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 3: my husband and I have done together, and keep going,

829
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 3: even into things you dream in the future and hope for.

830
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 3: But your brain is going to keep taking you to

831
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 3: the left handed path. It's that neural slide back onto

832
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 3: the left handed path. There you bring in the bad music.

833
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 3: You go, oh, I know it's raining, it's cloudy, it's horrible,

834
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 3: it's a bad neighborhood to be in. I know I

835
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,720
Speaker 3: don't want to be on this path. And you go ahead.

836
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 3: Let it populate with the thing that's the stuff that

837
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 3: you don't want. Turn your body back to the right

838
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 3: and go down the right neural path and keep building

839
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 3: it out. Make the flowers grow, the trees, go, bring

840
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 3: in the music, the birds, see the people that you

841
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 3: long for, and that lights up your brain like nobody's business.

842
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 2: We touched on this a little bit already for sure,

843
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 2: But can you expand a little bit about how on

844
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 2: one hand, you know the default mode network is tied

845
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:37,399
Speaker 2: up with this negative rumination, But then if we spin

846
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 2: in the other direction, if we spiral up, this can

847
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 2: also be an engine of creativity as well.

848
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 3: Right, one hundred percent. So we talked about how the

849
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 3: word rumination itself has two sides. It can have this dark, brooding,

850
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 3: recursive negative thinking, and it can also mean musing an ideation.

851
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 3: What's interesting to me is the fault mode network kind

852
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 3: of echoes and mirrors this duality. So it is the

853
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 3: seat it does give rise to. It does generate this

854
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 3: horrible self referential thinking, what do they think about me?

855
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 3: What did I do wrong? What did I say wrong?

856
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,359
Speaker 3: How did I flop that up? Which is really bad

857
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 3: for our mental health, But it also when we get

858
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 3: it to interface with the entire brain, it is also

859
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 3: the seat of our most creative imaginings, our most creative ideas.

860
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 3: It interfaces with the prefrontal cortex and other task positive

861
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 3: areas that give us the insight those glorious lit moments

862
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 3: of experience that we all long for in life, where

863
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 3: we have the big idea or we think as we

864
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 3: look at our child across the kitchen table, gosh, I

865
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 3: love this person so much, and a thousand stories split

866
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 3: through our heads. It is the seat of both the

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00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 3: darkest and the most transformative experiences that we have. So

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00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 3: the idea is to use all that we have, with

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00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 3: the best of neuroscience and the best of our love

870
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 3: for ourselves to flip that switch, and we can do it.

871
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 3: I followed a lot of people over two years, and

872
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,799
Speaker 3: it gets the more you try, the easier it.

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00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:25,360
Speaker 2: Guess well, that is inspiring, as is the book. I

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00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: want to thank you for coming on the show. Here

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00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to hold the book up for folks on

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00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:35,399
Speaker 2: video for anyone listening to the podcast on Netflix. But yes,

877
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 2: the book again is Mind Drama, The Science of Rumination

878
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 2: and How to Outwit your Inner Defeatist, by Dona Jackson Nagazawa.

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00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 2: By the time this episode is out, it should be

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00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 2: available wherever you get your books.

881
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me, Thanks for coming on.

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00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 2: The show, Thank you, Thanks, thanks once more to Donna

883
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 2: Jackson Nagazawa for taking time out of her day to

884
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 2: discuss this fabulous new book, Mine Drama, The Science of Rumination.

885
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 2: You can find this wherever you get your books, and

886
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 2: again I highly recommend it. Thanks as always to the

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00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 2: talented and excellent JJ Possway for producing this episode. As always,

888
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 2: if you want to reach out with questions, feedback, or

889
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 2: if you have suggestions for future interview episodes, Folks, authors,

890
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 2: scientists that you think I should have on the show,

891
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 2: just write in I would love to hear from you.

892
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 2: That email address is contact at stuff to Blow your

893
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 2: Mind dot com.

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00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

895
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

896
00:53:43,480 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

897
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 2: Have the pot