1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,559 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 2: As we go to air, sources are saying why missing 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 2: baby Emmanuel will never be found? This as the killer 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 2: dad suspect Jay Harrow, begs for help staging baby Emmanuel's kidnap. 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to 6 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. 7 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 2: Where is seven month old baby Emmanual questions swirling? Did 8 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 2: the baby disappear nine days before the alleged kidnap when 9 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 2: mommy was attacked in the parking lot at a sporting 10 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 2: goods store? Was the baby really missing nine days before that? 11 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 2: Could he be alive? We haven't found a body yet, 12 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 2: there is baby Emmanuel? And why are sources stating this 13 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: seven month old infant child will quote never be found? 14 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: It all starts here. 15 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 3: Just before eight pm Thursday night, Sam Bernardino Sheriffs arrive 16 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 3: and begins searching the strip mall and parking lot. Canine 17 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 3: units are dispatched to the scene, as well helicopters overhead. 18 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 3: Sam Bernardino Sharf's department joined by neighboring Riverside County deputies 19 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 3: to aid in a comprehensive search that stretches through the night. 20 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 4: This was preventable in numerous ways. 21 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: Todave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave, thank you for 22 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: being with us. The mom says that she goes to 23 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: Big five as a sporting good store to get her 24 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: other son of mouthguard so he can play sports. That 25 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 2: she gets out of the vehicle to change baby Emmanuel's dipee. 26 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: She hears one word from a male or lah, and 27 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: then she's attacked from behind. Hey, she's attack from behind. 28 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: Let's see her black eye that she got from that 29 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: tech from behind. 30 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: That when she wakes up, the baby is gone. Is 31 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: that correct? Yes? 32 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 3: No, Yes, that is correct. 33 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: Okay. 34 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: So then she goes into the store when she comes 35 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: to and ask has anybody seeing the baby? 36 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: Do I have that right? 37 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 5: So far? 38 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: You are correct, okay, Dave Matt. 39 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 2: Then the dad shows up on the same Listen, Jake. 40 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 3: Harrow shows up and bought a clothing negative at Big 41 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 3: Five and talks to assistant manager Liz Masa the morning 42 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 3: after his son is kidnapped. She says he was trying 43 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 3: to appear upset, trying to cry, rubbing his eyes, breathing 44 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 3: heavy but no tears as he asks for help finding 45 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 3: his infant son Harow is wearing a hoodie and his 46 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 3: ninety degrees and the manager is shocked to see that 47 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,839 Speaker 3: Haro is just walking around the parking lot, not out 48 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 3: searching for his son. 49 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: Mesa says, it just felt off. 50 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 6: He just came in and asked if we had any 51 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 6: information or please just set it. No, but there was 52 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 6: no tears, exaggerated kind of facial expressions. 53 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 2: That's from our friends at us Son. Okay, I want 54 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: to analyze what we've just heard. Dave mack Now, this 55 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: is a woman that works at the clothing store next 56 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 2: to Big five. Let's see Big five Sporting Goods again. 57 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 2: It's a little strip mall. And according to this witness, 58 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 2: Liz Mezza, the assistant manager, Harrow comes in asking for help. 59 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 2: Tell me exactly what we learned from her, Dave mac Well. 60 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 3: She says that when he came by that he was 61 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 3: trying to look upset, He was trying to breathe heavy, 62 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 3: he was rubbing his eyes, he was trying to act 63 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 3: like he was very concerned, and she could tell it 64 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 3: was an act because it just wasn't real. There were 65 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 3: no tears, first of all, but second of all, he 66 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 3: wasn't dressed appropriately for somebody who's going to be out 67 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 3: looking for their son on this particular day. 68 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: He's wearing a hoodie. 69 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: You point that out because you know this is August 70 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 3: in California and it's high so he had no business 71 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 3: to be out looking for his son. And why is 72 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 3: he looking in that parking lot? That was the other 73 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 3: question she pointed out. They closed the seven o'clock. Okay, 74 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 3: their parking lot is absolutely empty, right next door to 75 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: the Big k Or it's got a parking lot, and 76 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: they're open a little later, but there's not a lot 77 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 3: of activity, Nancy, And that's what she was trying to 78 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 3: point out is that they obviously did not know where 79 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,919 Speaker 3: they were when they're putting this story out there, because 80 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 3: it doesn't match the geography, doesn't match the area they're 81 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 3: in at all. 82 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 2: Okay, you know what, Dave mac I think you've gone 83 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 2: too far out on the limb, claiming that just because 84 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,119 Speaker 2: the dad was wearing a hoodie that somehow he's quote 85 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 2: you sound like Prince Andrew who said I couldn't have 86 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 2: molested Virginia Giffrey in the Epstein case because those are 87 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 2: my traveling clothes, right, So you're saying this was all 88 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: wrong because he was. 89 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: Wearing a hoodie. 90 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: Okay, if please don't say that any more, don't tell 91 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 2: that to anybody else, Okay, because it's raising a lot 92 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 2: of questions about your reporting. But that said, the other 93 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: part I found really interesting. 94 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: He came in asked if we had any info. If so, 95 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: please let me know. 96 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 2: No tears, just exaggerated facial expressions, rubbing his eyes, breathing heavily. Okay, 97 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: that's interesting because you know what to doctor John Delatori. 98 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: Delatory is a renowned psychologist, a mediator. 99 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: His specialties forensic psychology. 100 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: Doctor Delatory, I know that this woman that works at 101 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 2: the Beta clothing store beside Big Five is not a 102 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: shrink like you. She is not a nonverbal message expert. 103 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: She's not like a jury consultant that watches all the 104 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 2: jurors if they're ticks in their quirks, to see if 105 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: they would be good or bad on the jury for 106 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: their client. But she is a regular person like most 107 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: of us that when you get an odd sense about somebody, 108 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 2: you better listen. 109 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 7: Now. 110 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: A lot of guys, especially men, say, oh, you know, 111 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: that's just a woman, a nervous woman, reading too much 112 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: into it. I think hunches are very valid, and I 113 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 2: believe that they are born of thousands of years of evolution. 114 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 2: That you pick up things you don't even realize you're 115 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: seeing or hearing or feeling or smelling. 116 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it could be anything. 117 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 2: So the fact that he's wearing a hoodie, I don't care, 118 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 2: but her feeling that it quote just felt off. 119 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: I want to follow up on that deleatory. 120 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely. 121 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 8: I mean, no, she's not a mental health professional, but 122 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 8: she is a huge human being, a human being working 123 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 8: in the service industry, so she interacts with people all 124 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 8: of the time, and all of these people she never 125 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 8: knows who's going to be coming in and for what reason, 126 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 8: and what their day to day experiences are. She knows 127 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 8: about this case and is expecting to experience something coming 128 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 8: off of this man, and she doesn't get it. And 129 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 8: that's already a red flag, right. Her intenna is already up, 130 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 8: So now she's going to be looking at more things. 131 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 8: What are the other inconsistencies that are going on? When 132 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 8: she tells herself, look, if this was my child, this 133 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 8: is how I would be comparing those emotional states to 134 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 8: the person that she's seeing right in front of her. 135 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 8: Are inconsistent, and that's what makes him just seem more suspect. 136 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: Okay, brace yourself. 137 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 2: Philip Dubay joining US veteran trial lawyer out of the 138 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: La jurisdiction jump in de Bay. 139 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 9: I think it's ridiculous to assume that parents who are 140 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 9: in search of a missing child have to follow some 141 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 9: type of a blueprint, almanac or connect the dots in 142 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 9: some way, shape or form to suggest that they're not 143 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 9: behaving the way parents who might be in despair would display. 144 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 9: Because if you think about it, this is something that 145 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 9: may never happen during the course in the scope of 146 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 9: running a business, and certainly during the course in the 147 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 9: scope of raising children. 148 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 4: So I don't know what anybody's talking about in assuming 149 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 4: that there is the right way to. 150 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: Behave but. 151 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 2: On a prior program that you don't have any children. 152 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: So what do you know about what people are going 153 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 2: through raising children? Because I've told you what happened when 154 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 2: John David went missing, and it's always r us wait, 155 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: babies are us. I did not try to make myself cry. 156 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 4: It's self. Preservation is preservation of your family. 157 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 9: You don't have to be a parent to know that 158 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 9: a kid is missing and that you can kind of 159 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 9: pitch in and help find the child. 160 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 4: That's absurd. 161 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 9: And to suggest that either you know how you're dressed, 162 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 9: how you behave, whether or not you're crying, should follow 163 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 9: that playbook and determining whether or not you're up to 164 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 9: no good, I think is an unfair assessment. 165 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 2: Okay, I knew you would say that straight out to 166 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: Allie Neil joining US co founder revd up Kids. 167 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: She has been fighting. 168 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 2: For years to protect children from sex abuse, trafficking, and 169 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 2: other forms of abuse. Allie, thank you for being with us. 170 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 2: Why is debate saying that? Because you have dealt with 171 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 2: so many parents that are suffering because they can't find 172 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: their child. And I know defense attorneys say there is 173 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 2: no playbook, but actually there is a play book. I've 174 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: never seen a parent that did not show some sort 175 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 2: of emotion when they're looking for a lost child. 176 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: Allie, I would agree. 177 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 10: With you, Nancy, but I also would agree that everybody 178 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 10: has different ways that they show or hide emotion. We 179 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 10: can't read his mind. And you know the store clerk, Yes, 180 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 10: she was observing what she believed was fake behavior, but no, 181 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 10: that's going to hold up in court. His behavior when 182 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 10: he walked into that store to ask about Oh. 183 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: Well, right, right right, I don't know what you're saying. 184 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: It won't quote hold up in court. 185 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: I mean the fact that he suggesting if this ever 186 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 2: goes to trial, the jury cannot hear evidence of his 187 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: demeanor at the clothing store because that's just past Awkwards. 188 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 2: They will hear that, and they will wonder, like we are, 189 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 2: why was he trying to make himself christ. 190 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 10: They can hear it, but I think the defense would 191 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 10: turn around and say, you weren't in his head. You 192 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 10: don't know how he responds to, you know, crisis. Some 193 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 10: people just shut down. Some people you know. So it 194 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 10: feels like speculations. 195 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: Okay, Alan, okay, Alie. Steve Fisher, let's respond to that. 196 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 2: Steve Fisher joining us Missing Person's private investigator search and 197 00:10:55,400 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: rescue specialists. You can find him at Search Investigations dot org. Steve, 198 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 2: you have made a living. This is what you do 199 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 2: day in day out. You find missing people, especially children. 200 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 2: You go through all sorts of searches. You do all 201 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: terrain searches. You've overseen water searches, you've overseen dump site searches. 202 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: Name it, you've done it. 203 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 2: So Steve ali'neil agrees with Philip Dubay that parents cannot 204 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: act upset at all when their child is missing. In fact, 205 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: in this case, the witness says he was trying to 206 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: make himself cry. 207 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,359 Speaker 1: Now, I find that very odd behavior. 208 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 2: The hoodie doesn't mean anything to me, but the demeanor 209 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 2: and what you're about to find out about them just 210 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: hanging around in the parking lot, not actively looking like, 211 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: what do they think baby Emanuel is going to walk 212 00:11:58,320 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 2: back into the parking lot. 213 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: He's seven months old. But making yourself cry or trying 214 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: to that's just wrong. I don't know why they're saying 215 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: that that's normal. 216 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 7: I've never seen. I always see frantic, you know, people 217 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 7: that are just you know, have no control of their 218 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 7: emotions actually, and that they both seem to kind of 219 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 7: have that same reaction to me, if it's kind of 220 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 7: force the stage and it was, you know, look like 221 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,359 Speaker 7: a more of a press opportunity. 222 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: You know what. 223 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 2: We have barely touched the tip of the iceberg, So 224 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 2: I'm going to move us forward. 225 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 6: Listen, the baby have been kidnapped, they would have been 226 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 6: out looking for them, saying with like my sisters with 227 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 6: their kids. You know, it's just not something to just 228 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 6: hang around in a parking lot and then. 229 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 4: Just be mingling with your family. 230 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 5: I don't know. 231 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 6: We close at seven, So for them to say after 232 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 6: at seven forty seven, the whole parking lots and do 233 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 6: basically by that time. 234 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: Back to Dave Mack, that is exactly what you were saying. 235 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 2: If there had been a baby kidnapped, they would have 236 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 2: been out looking for them. They were just hanging around 237 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 2: the parking lot, like hanging out with a family, like 238 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 2: tailgating in the parking lot. 239 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: She goes on to State and that's for our friends 240 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: at us Son. 241 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 2: We close at seven, so for them to say it 242 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 2: happened at seven forty seven, the whole parking lot is empty. 243 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: Is that what you were saying earlier? 244 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 3: Dave mac explain, Okay, not exactly, Nancy. The store next 245 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 3: door to the Big Five actually closes at seven, and 246 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 3: their parking lot is adjacent to the Big Five. Big 247 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 3: Five stays open later than that store next door, But 248 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 3: for the most part, the parking lots are fairly empty, 249 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 3: certainly empty next to Big Five, and the Big Five 250 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 3: is finning out. There's not a lot of activity there 251 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 3: after seven o'clock at night. That's what the manager was 252 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 3: trying to say. 253 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: Okay, got it, guys. It goes on from there. In 254 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 2: the last hours, a lot happening in the case, a 255 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,119 Speaker 2: lot happening in the search for baby Emmanuel. 256 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 11: Listen appropriate to have a press conference, because it was 257 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 11: the defendants in this case that had a press conference first, and. 258 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 4: They did so in order to tell the. 259 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 11: Public, the media, and ultimately law enforcement that their child 260 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 11: had been kidnapped. 261 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 8: I was going to get the diaper and somebody said 262 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 8: oil and I don't locome right here on the floor, 263 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 8: and I didn't see Manuel. 264 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 5: It was a healthy baby. 265 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 4: He was crawling, he was kicking, and he was he 266 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 4: was playing with his toys. 267 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 5: Whoever took our sun, please give him back. 268 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: I'm watching his demeanor as he's speaking. 269 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: His voice seemingly is cracking, but he's not crying and 270 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: he doesn't look distressed at all. That's for my friends 271 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: at KTLA and ABC seven. You were first hearing Mike 272 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 2: Hestrin from Riverside County Das office stating they were having 273 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 2: a press conference because the mom and dad had already 274 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 2: had their own press conference with me. Special guest doctor 275 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: Eric Esen Board certified forensic pathologist and you can find 276 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 2: him on Facebook at Eric august Esen, Doctor Eason. 277 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. 278 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 2: How can she explain that she was attacked from behind 279 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: but yet has a black eye on the front of 280 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: her face. 281 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, it could have fallen forward, hit something. She could 282 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 5: have spun around after being an attack from behind and 283 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 5: been punched in the face. Those are all possibilities. 284 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: Day mag I want you to explain to me what 285 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 2: Big five employees state about the mom coming in earlier 286 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 2: before Baby Emanuel goes missing to state that her car 287 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: had been vandalized. 288 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 3: That's exactly what happened. She went to the store and asked, hey, 289 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 3: She actually said, my car has been broken into in 290 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 3: your parking lot. I'm just wondering, ga'la, have any surveillance 291 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 3: cameras pointed in this direction at all? That might have 292 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 3: been able to capture my car in the parking lot 293 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 3: and can you show me where it is? And she 294 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 3: was able to find out exactly what they had for 295 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 3: surveillance in the parking lot, so she already knew ahead 296 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 3: of time. And by the way, they don't live in 297 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 3: that area. It would have been out of the way 298 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 3: for her to be at that store any day other 299 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 3: than when she was there. 300 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 2: Dave mac When do they say that that happened, that 301 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 2: the mom came in stating her car had been vandalized 302 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 2: and asking if there were cameras, surveillance cameras on any 303 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: of the stores. 304 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 3: This is one of those stories, Nancy, where we've been 305 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 3: told that she came in three days earlier. Since they 306 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 3: don't have any cameras, we can't actually find video proof 307 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 3: that she did that, Nancy, but that is what has 308 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 3: been said by employees of the store. 309 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 2: Well, Steve Fisher, wouldn't it be a matter of getting 310 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: her cell phone and tracking the cell phone to determine 311 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: if it had been in the parking lot two or 312 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 2: three days earlier. 313 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 7: Absolutely, that's something that's celebrated. Can do a celebrate on 314 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 7: her phone. They'll be able to find out that information. 315 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 7: And there's also but I don't think she knew, is 316 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 7: there's lots of other surveillance cameras that are pointing, that 317 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 7: are showing that parking lot from across the street and 318 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 7: other ways. You know, I actually spoke, I actually went 319 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 7: to the Big Five and spoke to the employees, and 320 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 7: that witnessed her come in and they clearly, you know, 321 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 7: remember her coming in and it was suspicious to them. 322 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 7: And then when she came in with the kidnapp claim, 323 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 7: that's immediately what they thought of. They're like, this lady 324 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 7: was here, and what they said to me was earlier 325 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 7: in the month, although this happened fairly early in the month. 326 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 2: So okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Steve Fisher, 327 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,239 Speaker 2: explain exactly what the employees told you. 328 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 7: Sure, I went into the Big Five. I was there 329 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 7: the day after the kidnapping claims started that happened, and 330 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 7: they told me that she had come in and asked 331 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 7: She had said that her car had been broken into 332 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 7: and she wanted to know if there was surveillance because 333 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 7: she needed it for the insurance claim, and they told 334 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 7: her that they did not have exterior cameras on the 335 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 7: building and that was it. 336 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 5: You know. 337 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 7: Of course at that time, they don't know what's about 338 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 7: to happen a few days later, but that's what. 339 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 5: They told me. 340 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: Phillip Debay, what about that? Quite the co inky dink 341 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: right debate. 342 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 2: Don't you just hate it when your clients case the 343 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 2: joint days ahead of time to find out at their 344 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 2: surveillance video I would be interested to find out if 345 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 2: she really filed an insurance claim when her car was 346 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 2: quote burglarized? 347 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: What about it? Dobay? 348 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 2: And she goes back to the same place and gets 349 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 2: attacked a second time, same parking lot, same car, same everything. 350 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 9: If I were defending her, I would put those store 351 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 9: employees through the vegimatic. I would just really left, right 352 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 9: and center, just cross examine them like they have never 353 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 9: been crossed before. And I would want to know just 354 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 9: how many employees are saying that about my quote unquote client. 355 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 4: So, for example, this was your. 356 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 9: Search and rescue debut, wasn't it. I'll bet you you 357 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 9: had checked the lighting before you spoke. You shut up 358 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 9: all the fluorescence and make sure you had bright light 359 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 9: and number two pancakes to rub on your nose in 360 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 9: your floor. 361 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 2: Even talking about first time, what are you that they're exaggerating? 362 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 5: Oh? 363 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: Okay to Steve Fisher. 364 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 2: Does he look like a camera crew to you? It 365 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 2: seems like a regular guy to me. He goes in 366 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 2: and talks to them about what happened, and they volunteer 367 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: and not just one of them under You can take 368 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 2: Fisher down, okay, putting debate back up debate. To believe 369 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 2: your theory, all of the employees that opened up to 370 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 2: Steve Fisher would all have to be in on it, 371 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 2: that all have to be part of a conspiracy to 372 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 2: lie about missus Harrow, that all have to be in 373 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 2: on it to miss Harrow that they've never met before this, 374 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 2: They don't know her. 375 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: There's no grudge, there's no extra grind. But yet they're 376 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: all willing to lie to a guy that just walks 377 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: through the front door and asks, what happened? Is that 378 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: your story? 379 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: They're all getting together to lie on Rebecca Herro Well, Philip. 380 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 9: Do they and his personal capacity would absolutely buy it. 381 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 4: But if I were defending her, I. 382 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 9: Would do whatever I could to make it look like 383 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 9: they all put their heads together to take the lady down. 384 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 2: Wait a minute, that's your vegematic that you're bragging about. 385 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 2: I'm going to put the witnesses to a vegematic. 386 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, number one. 387 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: Nobody uses a vegematic anymore unless you I shot my hand, 388 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 2: of course, but everybody else uses. 389 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: A what do you say? 390 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: Queensin r All right, So that said, that's your vegematic. 391 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 2: You're going to accuse them of having their star turn 392 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 2: with Steve Fisher, who is not a camera person. 393 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 9: If I were defending them, absolutely, I would do whatever 394 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 9: I could to challenge their perceptions, their recollections, and their 395 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 9: incentive to want to take the lady down, and you'd 396 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 9: be amazed time debate. 397 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 2: You need a search, You need to search one, to 398 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: search all the employees home and find that pancake makeup 399 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 2: you're talking about. This is the vats and vats and 400 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 2: pots of pancake makeup and heavy powder that they were 401 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 2: going to apply for the moment that Steve Fisher happens 402 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: to walk through their door. 403 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 1: They were ready for that. Okay, what about this debate. 404 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 3: In the early stages of the investigation, detectives challenge Rebecca 405 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 3: Harrow on inconsistencies in her story and she stops cooperating. 406 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 3: Both parents are asked to take a polygraph, but Jake 407 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 3: Harrow refuses the polygraph without his lawyer. 408 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: President. 409 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 2: Okay, so I guess you think that's normal behavior too. 410 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 2: When your child goes missing and your wife is attacked 411 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 2: in a parking lot, you won't take a polly because 412 00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 2: of what? What are you afraid of? 413 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 9: System sees imperfect, unreliable science, and we've seen this before. 414 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 9: Remember when the medal in McKay baby was abducted in Portugal. 415 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: The parents would not make me call Debet. Matt Lan 416 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: magan got. 417 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 9: The name Mattie McCann. Remember that the parents would not 418 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 9: submit to the polygraph. Not because it was consciousness of guilt. 419 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 9: It was consciousness of scientific imperfection that was the problem. 420 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 9: Can you imagine then being detained and held based on 421 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 9: imperfect science? 422 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 5: No, So what do you do? 423 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 9: You clam up, You ask for a lawyer, particularly in 424 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 9: a situation when you're being confronted with quote unquote inconsistencies 425 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 9: and you have turned a search and rescue into an 426 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 9: adversarial proceeding. I would have clammed up as well and 427 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 9: asked for counsel or. 428 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 4: Just remained silent. 429 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: Crime Stores with Nancy Grace, I Fisher, I believe that 430 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: you know Mark Class. He's the gold standard. 431 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 2: His daughter Polly was kidnapped, sex assaulted, and murdered by 432 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: Richard Allen. She was having to spend the night party 433 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 2: in her mom's home when police came to search Mark 434 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 2: Class's place. He opened the door and said, here, take 435 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 2: my fingerprints, search my place, search my car, search my office, 436 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 2: do whatever you want, then you can move on to 437 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: find out who took my daughter. Okay, he was willing 438 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 2: to take a polygraph. I find it very odd that, 439 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 2: faced with your child disappearing and a violent attack on 440 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 2: your wife in a parking lot, that you refuse a 441 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 2: polygraph and lawyer up, I got a problem with that. 442 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 5: I agree. 443 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 7: I mean, if a child goes missing, even if the 444 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 7: public might be throwing accusations around, I mean, as a parent, 445 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 7: if you have no guilt, and I think it's the 446 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 7: last thing going through your mind, is you know, the 447 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 7: failing a polograph. You think they would be willing to 448 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 7: submit to whatever would help investigators. And if the public's 449 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 7: making those claims, then you have to tune that out 450 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 7: if you truly got nothing to do with it. But 451 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 7: in this case, that's not what we saw. They told 452 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 7: us they were cooperating. That's what the parents told the news, 453 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 7: But it doesn't seem like it because at the time 454 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 7: I was there, they were in the house the whole time, 455 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 7: they weren't out searching, and it doesn't sound like they 456 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 7: were truly cooperating with authorities. 457 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 3: In the Southern California News Group, Rebecca Harrow denies or 458 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 3: she went to the Big Five and you Kaipa days 459 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 3: before she reported the kidnapping and told employees her car 460 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 3: had been burgularized in the parking lot and asked if 461 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 3: the business had surveillance cameras. The Sheriff's department has yet 462 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 3: to address the claims. 463 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: Little Emmanuel was first reported missing on August fourteenth. 464 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 10: They have searched two counties and they have still not 465 00:24:58,359 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 10: found this. 466 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 2: Little way baby Emmanuel, just seven months old, reportedly goes 467 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 2: missing out of a Big five Sporting Goods parking lot 468 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 2: there with his mother. 469 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 3: This is a seven month old baby that they are 470 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 3: looking in the roughest terrain in the world. 471 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: Board and then bring out. 472 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 3: The baby's father and he doesn't even boy to offer 473 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 3: any kind of assistance, any kind of help. 474 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 2: Tonight's sources stating they know why baby Emmanuel will never 475 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 2: be found. This as witnesses state, the dad, Jake Harrow, 476 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 2: asks for help in staging baby Emmanuel's kidnap. 477 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: But there's another baby taking center stage. Listen. 478 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 3: The sister of Emmanuel was so badly injured at just 479 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 3: ten weeks she was left unable to see, talk, or walk. 480 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 3: The little girl is being raised by her adoptive mother, 481 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 3: who renamed the child promised Faith at just ten weeks old. 482 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 3: Traumise had an acute fractured rib, healing fractures of six ribs, 483 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 3: a skull fracture, a brain hemorrhage, swelling of the neck, 484 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 3: a healing fractured leg bone, and nutritional neglect. Carro and 485 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 3: his former partner Vanessa Alvina were both charged with child 486 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 3: of cruelty in twenty eighteen tow h Horrow, pleading guilty. 487 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: Doctor Eric Ason, the injuries to maybe Emmanuel's sister are overwhelming, 488 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 2: and according to reports, she has cerebral palsy because of 489 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 2: repeat abuse. 490 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: How can that happen? How do you get cerebral palsy 491 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: from beatings? 492 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 5: Well, it's trauma to the brain, and it's a blunt trauma. 493 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 5: So a solid object struck the head, or the head 494 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 5: struck a solid object, or some combination of the two. 495 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 5: And so everything indicates that with the rib fractures and 496 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 5: all the other fractures on the body in different stages 497 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 5: of healing, that they were inflicted by another individual. And 498 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 5: that's how the cerebral pulsey can occur in a child 499 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 5: due to in treat of the brain. 500 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: And what's so disturbing, Dave Mac, is that a. 501 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 2: Judge allowed Jake Harrow, the father in this case that 502 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: reportedly asked for help from store employees to set up 503 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 2: his baby's kidnap, he got to walk free. 504 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: He walked free. Isn't that true? 505 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 2: The judge said, Hey, I'm gonna do you a favorite. Judge, 506 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 2: Dwight W. Moore suspended Harrow's prison sentence and granted straight probation. 507 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: What happened, Dave Mac. 508 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 3: He spent a couple of weeks taking up trash on 509 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 3: the side of the road Nancy in a work release program. 510 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 2: Defense attorney Philip Debay, the baby cannot walk talk here. 511 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: See he got probation. I guess you think his lawyer 512 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:00,479 Speaker 1: did a good well. 513 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 4: Of course he did. 514 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 9: I mean you cannot claim that that attorney was ineffective. 515 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 9: I think the real question, though, is why the prosecution 516 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 9: wasn't pounding its fists on council table demanding that this 517 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 9: judge and post prison, or why they didn't file what 518 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 9: we call an affidavit of prejudice against the judge and 519 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 9: you get moved to a different court. 520 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 4: It's my understanding. 521 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 2: So somehow you're gonna not you're somehow trying to blind 522 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 2: the prosecutor for this. 523 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: Well, I've got er Bryan frank Baum for you. Listen. 524 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 11: J Carrow pled straight up to the court, which sometimes 525 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 11: reporters get this wrong, and you call it a plea bargain. 526 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 4: Judges are not allowed to plea bargain. The defendants can plee. 527 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 11: Bargain with the prosecutor. But when a defendant pleads up 528 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 11: to the court, they plead to everything that they've been 529 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 11: charged with, and they're essentially throwing themselves on the mercy. 530 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: Of the court. 531 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 2: It's called a blind plea in most jurisdictions. What that 532 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 2: means is the prosecutor would only agree to a plea 533 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 2: bargain for serious jail time. The defense wouldn't take it, 534 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 2: and so they go to the judge blind so to speak, 535 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 2: and throw themselves on the mercy of the judge. The 536 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 2: prosecutor disagreed, the prosecutor wanted. 537 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: Hard jail time. It's the judge, Judge Dwight W. 538 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 3: Moore. 539 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: They went to the prosecutor, Yeah, you know what, screw 540 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: you and the horse she rode in on. 541 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 2: I'm gonna give it a straight probation. Even though he blinded. 542 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 2: The baby girl. He made her death dumb and mute, 543 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 2: and she can't walk and she has cerebral palsy. But hey, 544 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 2: he actually said from the bench, I'm gonna give you 545 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,959 Speaker 2: a break. I'm gonna do you a favor. 546 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: The prosecutor was doing a back flip. Listen. 547 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 11: In this case, a judge here in Riverside County happened 548 00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 11: to have been a visiting judge from Semberdy Dental County, 549 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 11: gave mister Harrow a suspended sentence, which means that instead 550 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 11: of sending him to prison, he chose to give him 551 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 11: probation and suspend prison time sort of over his head, meaning. 552 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 4: That if you violated his probation, he would then go 553 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 4: to prison. 554 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 11: My prosecutor in the courtroom objected to that and said, 555 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 11: on the record, we object. We think it's a prison case. 556 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 11: You should send him to prison. And the judge decided 557 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 11: that mister Harrow deserved an extra break and gave him 558 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 11: probation and basically one hundred and eighty days of work release. 559 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 11: That decision was absolutely outrageous. Mister Horror should have been 560 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 11: in prison at the time that this crime happened, and 561 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 11: if that judge had done his job as he should 562 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 11: have done. A manual would be alive today. 563 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: That is Mike hestrin the Riversai County District Attorney saying, 564 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 2: we beg for jail time, we demand jail time, and 565 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 2: Judge Dwight W. 566 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: Moore threw us out of court and gave this guy 567 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: straight probation. And what did he do. He goes into 568 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: a store asking them to help him. 569 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 2: Give an alibi, help him create a story that his child, 570 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 2: his other child, was kidnapped. 571 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: That is the woman. 572 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 2: That is the person, Ali Neil that you said, Hey, 573 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 2: there's no playbook for a parent who's lost a child. 574 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 2: So maybe he was crying, maybe he was really upset. 575 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: That's the guy he had already beaten into oblivion. 576 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 10: Okay, I want to backtrack, because you were asking specific 577 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 10: questions about his demeanor in the store and the clerk's 578 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 10: perception of his demeanor in the store. 579 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 12: Do I think he did it one hundred percent? Yes, 580 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 12: I absolutely think he did it, And I completely agree 581 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 12: that he should already be in jail for the other 582 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 12: child to beat. So yeah, this whole story just smacks 583 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 12: of this wild, made up lie. 584 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: And I hope the wife is Jennie Neil. I hope 585 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: she's sitting down. 586 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 10: Allie, I'm sitting down. 587 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: Are you sitting down? Simple? See you just sitting down? Well, 588 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: you know you might need to lay down for what 589 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: you're about to hear, Allie Neil. 590 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 11: At the end of their sentence, he told Jake, I'm 591 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 11: giving you a big break today. 592 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: Don't mess it up. 593 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 4: But I want to point something out to you. 594 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 11: I want to read to you the injuries. The child's 595 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 11: name is Carolina. She's still alive today, but she is 596 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 11: permanently bedridden. She has permanent damage cerebral palsy that is 597 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 11: a result of long term child to. 598 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: Beat crime stores with Nancy Grace. 599 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 2: She got out of the vehicle to change Baby Emmanuel's 600 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 2: dip and she was attacked from behind. 601 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: But when she woke up from the attack, the baby 602 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: is gone. 603 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 2: No money is taken. There's no sex attack, no carjack, 604 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 2: just the baby. No surveillance, No witnesses saw this. How 605 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 2: can you look at the disappearance of baby Emmanuel without 606 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 2: factoring in what Jake Harrow did to this baby's sister, 607 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 2: who was left forever in basically a vegetative state because 608 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 2: of him. He pled guilty it's not a question. Do 609 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 2: bab will probably make it sound like, well, maybe it 610 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 2: didn't happen. He pled guilty under oath in a court 611 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 2: of law. He rolled the dice and he hit the 612 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 2: jackpot because the judge gave him straight probation. And what 613 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: does he do, According to reports, he tries to get 614 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: store employees to help him stage a kidnap. 615 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: The kidnap up another baby, baby Emmanual. But before we 616 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: move on, I want you. 617 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 2: To hear the Riverside County District Attorney Mike Hestrin recount 618 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 2: what happened to baby Emmanual's sister. 619 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 11: I want to read to you the injuries that were 620 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 11: presented to in court to this judge at the time of. 621 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 4: That previous prosecution. 622 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 11: A cute fracture of the posterior left rib, fifth rib, 623 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 11: healing fractures, healing fractures of the posterior lateral sixth, seventh 624 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 11: and tenth through twelfth ribs, healing fractures of the sixth 625 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 11: and ninth through twelfth ribs, partial bone fracture of the skull, 626 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 11: brain hemorrhage, significant prevertical soft tissue swelling of the neck, 627 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 11: and a healing tibia fract of the right leg. 628 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 2: You know, when you hear the district attorney reading off 629 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 2: the injuries to the baby girl who was, you know, 630 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 2: just weeks. 631 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: Old, you can numb yourself. 632 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 2: But if you think about what he is saying, if 633 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 2: you let your mind go to what he is saying, 634 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 2: what was done to the baby is brutal, it's hateful, 635 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 2: it's downright evil. What was done to this baby girl. 636 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 2: And now baby Emmanuel is missing. Now, according to sources, 637 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 2: baby Emmanuel will. 638 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: Never be found. 639 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 3: Borrow's next door neighbor is saying the body of Emmanuel 640 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 3: Horrow will never be found after hearing police had Horrow 641 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 3: out by the sixty freeway. The neighbor says she can 642 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 3: hear the coyotes at night like they are in the 643 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 3: front yard, and says she doesn't think the remains will 644 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,720 Speaker 3: be found. Quote one something to be found. I'm pretty 645 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 3: sure you could find a way. Sad to hear, but true. 646 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 3: If you're a local here, you know that baby's gone. 647 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: Hey, Mac, explain to me what the neighbors are saying. 648 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 3: They're pointing out, Nancy that while it seems the area 649 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 3: that you're talking about with Riverside and San Bernardino Counties. 650 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 3: There are a lot of areas that are very rural, Okay, 651 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 3: a lot of underbrush and coyotes. The coyotes are wild 652 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 3: and they can hear them at night, and as the 653 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 3: neighbor point, they're so loud, they're so they sound like 654 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 3: they're right here in the front yard. And that's what 655 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 3: she's pointing out. There are so many areas where if 656 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 3: that's what your goal was, to get rid of something 657 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 3: that nobody would find, you could do it in this 658 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 3: area around the house within two or three miles could 659 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 3: be totally lost. 660 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 2: I want to go to Steve Fisher, joining us a 661 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 2: search and rescue specialist, start to investigations. Steve, if that's 662 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 2: true what the neighbor is saying, that a manual's. 663 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: Body will never be found. 664 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 2: If the body had been disposed of out in one 665 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 2: of these many, many open and desolate areas, could cadaver 666 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 2: dogs find even a trace a part of the baby, 667 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 2: assuming coyotes had gotten to them first. 668 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 7: Yes, so, and listen, this is a huge, vast open 669 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:33,800 Speaker 7: area and I do a lot of searches out in 670 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 7: this area. 671 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: And these are scavenger animals. 672 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 7: It's not just coyotes. But there is a lot of 673 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 7: mountain lion in that area, and they're opportunistic animals and 674 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 7: they will feed upon stuff like this, but they scatter 675 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 7: the bones, they'll use them as salt lick sometimes, and 676 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 7: I understand such a young child has softer bones than 677 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 7: an adult. However they'll it does actually they'll spread those remains. 678 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 7: That actually gives a wider area for then humans or 679 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 7: canines to come in and search. And there still is 680 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 7: going to be you know, a material left where the 681 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 7: canines can pull sense, but it's not going to happen 682 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 7: if they're not out searching. And that's you know where 683 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 7: I have a problem lately, is I don't see these 684 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 7: searches happening. But yes, even if these predatory animals, we 685 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 7: see it a lot in desert searches, and it does happen, 686 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 7: but they do leave, you know, remains behind. 687 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 2: There is of course a remote chance baby Harrow is 688 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 2: still alive, that Emmanuel is sold or given away. But again, 689 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 2: when you don't know a horse, look at his track record, 690 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 2: Doctor John Delatory. We know that Jake Harrow has a 691 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 2: history of beating infants. So it makes me believe that 692 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 2: the neighbor could be right, doctor Delatory. 693 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. 694 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 8: I mean I just just listening to the list of 695 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,280 Speaker 8: is that that baby Carolina suffered. I mean I almost 696 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 8: want to cry. And you're right, Nancy. You know, the 697 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 8: best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and we 698 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 8: see someone who engage in statistic violent behavior against vulnerable children, 699 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 8: and so more than likely if something could have happened, 700 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 8: and the same thing would have happened to baby Emmanuel. 701 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 5: So I I. 702 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 8: Are there other things that could have happened, Sure, but 703 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 8: the most likely thing, the most probable thing, is that 704 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 8: these two parents engaged in some nefarious act and baby 705 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 8: Emmanuel is now gone and we're struggling to try to 706 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 8: find him. 707 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 5: You know that. 708 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 1: Let's clarify when you say gone, you mean did I 709 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: do mean dead? 710 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 5: Yes. 711 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 2: In the last days, Jake Harrow and why Rebecca Harrow 712 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 2: are in court. 713 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 3: Jake Harrow has a public defender who entered a not 714 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 3: guilty believe for him at a Raymond and Rebecca Harrow's 715 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 3: court appointed private counsel, Jeff Moore, inereda. 716 00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 5: Believe not guilty for her. 717 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 3: More from the firm Bloomenthal and Moore previously represented Louise 718 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 3: and David Turpin, the parents serving a life sentence now 719 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 3: for abusing their thirteen children for years in court. Deegaro's 720 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 3: wearing a jail issued read jumpsuit indicating he is not 721 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 3: in general population for his own protection, and Rebecca har 722 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 3: wearing blue jail uniform for the same reasons. 723 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 2: So they're getting protected from the other inmates. I got 724 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 2: a question, Tobey, why do you hire a defense attorney 725 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 2: that lost the durping case? 726 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 9: Great question, and I happen to know who defense counsel is. 727 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 9: He is private, but he's court appointed, so he was 728 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 9: not privately retained. He was appointed by the court at 729 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,800 Speaker 9: taxpayer expense. This young couple is impoverished. They don't have 730 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 9: a potter or window to send on private counsel. 731 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 2: Are you trying to make me feel sorry for them 732 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 2: because they can't afford a high price defense attorney like you? 733 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 2: They got a high price defense attorney. His name is 734 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 2: Jeff Moore and he's with Bloominthal and Moore and a 735 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 2: also case Louise and David Turpin. 736 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: They got life. 737 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 9: The firm has a contract with Riverside County to pick 738 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 9: up all conflict cases where the public defenders declares a 739 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,280 Speaker 9: legal conflict of interest. So they are on an annual 740 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 9: contract where they're basically paid a lump sum to represent 741 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 9: everybody brought in on conflicts during the contractual period. 742 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: Well, they landed in a pot of honey yet again 743 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: getting a vetterman trial lawyer. 744 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 2: That's not all we hear, Dave Mac, that these two 745 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,760 Speaker 2: demons from hell that are presumed innocent until proven guilty 746 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 2: are wearing special jumpsuits which means they're not in ginpop 747 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 2: general population. 748 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 3: Why well, it's for their own protection because of the charges, Nancy, 749 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 3: at least that's what we're being led to believe, because 750 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 3: you know, we all have heard jail house stories of 751 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 3: how people who hurt children are treated with the way 752 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,800 Speaker 3: they should be treated. It's that's for their own protection, 753 00:41:58,160 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 3: Dave Mac. 754 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 2: Those two turpins are alive and well, and you and 755 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,359 Speaker 2: I got to pay for three hots and a cot 756 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 2: for those two. 757 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: Again, demon straight straight from hell. They're from hell. 758 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:20,280 Speaker 2: All those children abused, starved, beaten, kept literally in chains 759 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:25,360 Speaker 2: in closets. Now the question is are these two cats 760 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 2: and a barrel going to turn on each other? And 761 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 2: I've got an indicator they will. 762 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 3: Jake and Rebecca o'haro were brought in through separate doors 763 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 3: at opposite sides of. 764 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 1: The court room. 765 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,320 Speaker 3: They did not appear to look at each other, and 766 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 3: Jake Carrow kept his eyes on the judge. Rebecca Harrow 767 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 3: was kept out of direct view by her private attorney 768 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 3: appointed by the court, Jeff Moore from Bloomin Dalen Moore. 769 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 2: Don't you just love it, DBA when your client and 770 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 2: the co defendant won't even look at each other in court. 771 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 2: I've seen them sitting right beside each other. 772 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: In court and they look the other way. They won't 773 00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 1: even look at each other. 774 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 2: A state's witness, and I think the state's witness is 775 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 2: going to be Rebecca Harrow. I hope she doesn't get 776 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 2: a sweetheart deal to testify against her husband. 777 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 1: State you don't need her, You don't need her to 778 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: prove this case. What about it debate. 779 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 9: I think you're absolutely correct, and I've said it from 780 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 9: day one. I think most Rebecca was an accessory after 781 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 9: the fact, meaning she was not complicit in the underlying homicide, 782 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 9: but may have had a hand in covering it up 783 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 9: so that her husband wasn't arrested. Still a crime. The 784 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 9: legal goodness for Rebecca is that that only carries three 785 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 9: years at halftime and does not have a lifetop. 786 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 4: So if in exchange she testifies against me for three years, 787 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 4: I can. 788 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: Listen curious, are you actually on something? This woman is 789 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,720 Speaker 1: not getting three years and walking free. That's not happening. 790 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: The state doesn't even need her. You don't think she 791 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,279 Speaker 1: was there when Baby Emmanuel was killed. She took court 792 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: in the whole thing. 793 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 9: What proof do you have when she had whatroof is 794 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 9: there that she had a hand in the murder if 795 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 9: there even was a murder. 796 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 4: Seriously, it's my understanding the evidence saying. 797 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 2: If there even was a murder, Did you just say that, Yes, 798 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 2: you're losing a lot of credibility right now to Bay 799 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 2: I could understand as. 800 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 9: To him, But what do you have on her other 801 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,839 Speaker 9: than she's got a black guy in a parking lot 802 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 9: saying somebody said, oh lot kidnapped the kidden. 803 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 4: Purportedly drove off. 804 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 9: Right now, you've got nothing saying that she had a 805 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 9: hand in that murder, if there was a murder. 806 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. 807 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about baby Emmanuel, 808 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 2: please dial nine zero nine three eight seven eight three 809 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 2: one three repeat nine zero nine three eight seven eight 810 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 2: three one three And now we remember an American hero, 811 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 2: Officer Mark Reynolds, South Carolina State Police, killed in the 812 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:59,320 Speaker 2: line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife, Brandy, and 813 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:06,720 Speaker 2: three daughters. American hero Officer Mark Reynolds Nancy Grace signing 814 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 2: off goodbye friend.