Speaker 1: Hey there, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ.
Speaker 1: It is Friday, January twenty third, and we are hearing
Speaker 1: for the very first time that acquitted Uvaldi police officer
Speaker 1: after he received a not guilty verdict on those twenty
Speaker 1: nine counts of child endangerment for his role as he
Speaker 1: was called to the scene of the rob Elementary School massacre.
Speaker 1: And with that, everyone, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1: He was very, very emotional in this interview.
Speaker 2: Ah, you know what, it will get came late. I
Speaker 2: don't know how they edited this thing, but I was
Speaker 2: expecting to hear more from him. He's sitting there flanked
Speaker 2: by his attorneys and they did most of the talking
Speaker 2: quite frankly, and he's defiant, he's defending himself. He got
Speaker 2: emotional at the end, and look, there are some parts
Speaker 2: of that your heart. You're in conflict with this guy.
Speaker 3: Because he does stand by his actions.
Speaker 1: And when I say actions, a lot of people would
Speaker 1: say he's inaction that day because prosecutors and obviously they
Speaker 1: pursued these charges against him because they said it was
Speaker 1: his inaction on that day that contributed to the deaths.
Speaker 3: Of nineteen children and two teachers.
Speaker 1: A jury disagreed with that, but we all, I think,
Speaker 1: at this point, know the story. It took law enforcement
Speaker 1: seventy seven minutes to ultimately confront that gunman, and Gonzalez
Speaker 1: was the first, if not one of the first officers
Speaker 1: on the scene that day, and by most accounts people
Speaker 1: who were there, he was on the scene before the
Speaker 1: gunman actually went into rob Elementary school, and that is
Speaker 1: one of the main reasons prosecutors pursued those charges against him.
Speaker 1: But Gonzales defiant is a good word that he was
Speaker 1: defiant in this interview.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm defending himself, i should say, because defiant almost
Speaker 2: sounds negative. But he has been the public face of
Speaker 2: a tragedy. To a certain degree, it's his fault he
Speaker 2: did it. I cannot imagine what his life has been
Speaker 2: like the past several years. So to a certain degree
Speaker 2: he sounded pissed, and that's.
Speaker 3: Legitimate, Yeah, and that's fair.
Speaker 1: His quote was, you can sit here and tell me
Speaker 1: all you want about what I would have done or
Speaker 1: what you would have done. Until you're in that mix,
Speaker 1: you can't tell me anything. I agree with that, and
Speaker 1: I hear that, and I do agree with that, But
Speaker 1: other people would say, but you're a police officer who's
Speaker 1: been trained to handle this exact situation.
Speaker 2: Okay, so he's not he wasn't good at his job,
Speaker 2: But we kept saying, is that a crime because he
Speaker 2: failed or he performed poorly? We all have performed poorly
Speaker 2: at some point or some day. He had a bad
Speaker 2: day at work, and he had a bad day on
Speaker 2: the worst day, he should be fired. But does he
Speaker 2: need to go to prison? I don't know where the
Speaker 2: line is from a legal standpoint.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, you think about it.
Speaker 1: Police officers, emergency workers, and maybe doctors, surgeons, physicians. Those
Speaker 1: are people where decisions they make on the job literally
Speaker 1: can result in life or death. There are significant consequences
Speaker 1: for folks who work in those industries day in and
Speaker 1: day out.
Speaker 2: They call it malpractice, right, maw practice. But how often
Speaker 2: are doctors going to jail for killing somebody?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: How often are they going to jail? Right? I know
Speaker 2: what you're saying, that absolutely is out, that absolutely happens.
Speaker 2: I don't. I just don't know the answer legally, But
Speaker 2: you can't tell me. And I hear what he's saying.
Speaker 2: I have a difficult time listening to him say he
Speaker 2: doesn't wish he did something different that day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he did say, And I'll get into the
Speaker 1: exact quote here, because look, he claims that he did
Speaker 1: go inside the school building, but that he retreated because
Speaker 1: he says he received a direct order from his commanding officer.
Speaker 3: So here is his quote.
Speaker 1: I did the best that I could with the information
Speaker 1: I was getting. I don't regret it because I took
Speaker 1: an order from my chief at that time.
Speaker 2: Okay, That's that's difficult for parents to hear. That's difficult
Speaker 2: for community to hear, for a country to hear. He's
Speaker 2: that one's tough. Nineteen kids are dead and you were
Speaker 2: the first one there, and you don't wish you could
Speaker 2: have saved one of them by doing something different. That's uh, dude,
Speaker 2: that's tough.
Speaker 3: He was playingo to hear.
Speaker 1: It's very tough to hear for the two of us
Speaker 1: who don't have children who were in that school at
Speaker 1: that time. Yes, if I heard that and I were
Speaker 1: a parent of one of those kids, that sentence alone
Speaker 1: could send me over the edge.
Speaker 2: That's a good way to wait. That that could that
Speaker 2: would be the one that it brings it all back
Speaker 2: to a certain degree. That's that's tough. I don't know,
Speaker 2: and you I didn't. I fast forward far, frankly through
Speaker 2: the parts of his attorneys speaking. Did you listen to
Speaker 2: that stuff?
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 2: I didn't know if they ever try to cut him
Speaker 2: off or say you're saying the wrong thing. I didn't
Speaker 2: know what their interaction was.
Speaker 1: Well, obviously we got an edited version, right, I didn't
Speaker 1: see the I didn't see the uh, the actual full interview.
Speaker 1: But I can say that their attorney just basically tried
Speaker 1: to turn the tables and say this is all the
Speaker 1: prosecutor's fault. They created this narrative, they created this anger
Speaker 1: that should never have been directed at Adrian Gonzales, which
Speaker 1: I kind of disagree with because having been on a
Speaker 1: scene there in Uvaldi, I saw the parent's anger firsthand
Speaker 1: at the police officers in real time. I was there,
Speaker 1: I believe within a day of the shooting, and angry
Speaker 1: parents were talking to anyone that they could about the
Speaker 1: police officer's decision not to go inside, to not confront
Speaker 1: that shooter.
Speaker 2: How soon, though, did he become the face. I kind
Speaker 2: of remember how soon his name and this story started
Speaker 2: getting out because he said he is is now. It
Speaker 2: was intentional. He was their scape ghost. Yes, here he is, everybody,
Speaker 2: this is the guy to be mad at.
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't know the timeline, but his attorney said
Speaker 1: the injustice was in starting by telling the family that
Speaker 1: Adrian was responsible, because he was not. The jury determined
Speaker 1: he was not. They came to the correct verdict. But
Speaker 1: of course the families don't feel that was correct. That's
Speaker 1: because he says they were told something different. So they're
Speaker 1: blaming the charges. They're blaming prosecutors for all of the
Speaker 1: anger to be directed at Officer Gonzales. And to a degree,
Speaker 1: I understand that because he was, he is the name
Speaker 1: you now associate. The truth is, as journalists, we have
Speaker 1: shied away from and really stopped putting out the shooter's
Speaker 1: name because we don't want to glorify. We don't want
Speaker 1: to incentivize any troubled person to say, oh well, if
Speaker 1: I go out this way, my name will live an infamy.
Speaker 1: I was on the scene, covered this shooting for days.
Speaker 1: I cannot tell you the name of the shooter because
Speaker 1: we don't say it. But I can tell you the
Speaker 1: name of Officer Adrian Gonzales.
Speaker 2: That's interesting, I mean, it's yeah, I mean this is
Speaker 2: I don't know the chief's name. Maybe I'll start to
Speaker 2: remember that name later. He's going to be tried as well,
Speaker 2: the former you've already school police chief, But Adrian Gonzales
Speaker 2: will have to I think I'm not sure which is worse,
Speaker 2: the personal hell or the public hell, because listening to
Speaker 2: him today he got emotional, yes at the end, talking
Speaker 2: about the personal told, not being able to go home
Speaker 2: and all that stuff you'll mention in a moment. But
Speaker 2: Rome's you have got to from a personal standpoint, it
Speaker 2: has got to be difficult to live with what he
Speaker 2: has to live with. It didn't come off that way
Speaker 2: in the interview.
Speaker 1: See I hear you because and that was the problem
Speaker 1: with that I don't regret it part. I'm curious what
Speaker 1: you think you mentioned? He was flanked by both of
Speaker 1: his lawyers. Right, he has to be concerned about civil
Speaker 1: lawsuits obviously, so does he sort of to protect himself
Speaker 1: legally or even maybe financially. Does he have to double
Speaker 1: down and say I don't regret it because I followed
Speaker 1: an order.
Speaker 2: Can I ask is there isn't there something it dimnifies
Speaker 2: police officers from being sued civilly? Oh?
Speaker 3: You know what that very well.
Speaker 1: I know there is some sort of civil thing in
Speaker 1: the works, but I don't know there's a civil lawsuit,
Speaker 1: but I don't know if it's against the police department itself.
Speaker 3: You're right, maybe not individual officers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if he can. I don't know
Speaker 2: what he's facing moving forward, other than for the rest
Speaker 2: of his life being the public face and the public blame.
Speaker 2: He is the one. This is the guy who folks
Speaker 2: say responded, so again, my heart goes out to him
Speaker 2: for what he has to do with personally and publicly.
Speaker 2: But listening to him today, wash was tough to hear,
Speaker 2: Like I didn't hear remorse, sane for the kids. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I heard it for what he is dealing with. Now
Speaker 2: that makes.
Speaker 1: Sense, yes, because and look even it kind of reads
Speaker 1: from what he said. As soon as that not guilty
Speaker 1: verdict was read, he was asked almost immediately by reporters,
Speaker 1: do you have anything to say to the families that
Speaker 1: would have been an opportunity, that would have been an
Speaker 1: opportunity to say something. He said, no, not at this moment.
Speaker 1: And then when he was asked again in this sit
Speaker 1: down interview, this is what he said in this felt
Speaker 1: a little a lot short for me. He said, whatever
Speaker 1: I say to them, meaning the families, I know it's
Speaker 1: not going to ease their pain, but they're always in
Speaker 1: my prayers, you know, so they can start healing. I
Speaker 1: would have liked to hear something more.
Speaker 2: Look, it's tough to sit and we can have an
Speaker 2: impression of we don't know who this guy, and so
Speaker 2: I scanned judge him for the answers and how he
Speaker 2: gave them. But just if somebody, I think the youth
Speaker 2: said it the best. If you are a parent and
Speaker 2: you heard some of this man, if you had anger
Speaker 2: at this guy before and then after the verdict and
Speaker 2: then after this interview, you gotta be human at some
Speaker 2: of the stuff. He said.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he was even kind of saying it's not fair.
Speaker 1: It's not fair, and it might not have been fair,
Speaker 1: and it might be completely unfair that he was singled out,
Speaker 1: But just to hear him say it, after everything these
Speaker 1: families had been through, he said, when the video started playing,
Speaker 1: I realized they handpicked me. They had an excuse for
Speaker 1: everybody else they did this, did that, you know, but
Speaker 1: I had to do this.
Speaker 3: I had to do that.
Speaker 1: So he was playing the victim, and look, he very well.
Speaker 1: Maybe in this he may have been the one who
Speaker 1: was victimized legally unfairly.
Speaker 3: That's not for me to say.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't sound great to be complaining when so
Speaker 1: many people have lost the unthinkable.
Speaker 2: And again I take him at his word for what
Speaker 2: he's gone through. Your heart goes out to him again
Speaker 2: for a way has to do with publicly and privately,
Speaker 2: but Roges he has an opportunity here. There is exactly,
Speaker 2: there's a pr problem he thinks he has. You didn't
Speaker 2: help it. It just the I know he spoke for
Speaker 2: a moment about loving kids and always went to work
Speaker 2: with kids, and that came off. But to to when
Speaker 2: ask when you got an opportunity here to speak to
Speaker 2: these parents, man, how could you just not?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm devastated.
Speaker 1: I go to Betty's night seeing their little faces and
Speaker 1: it haunts me and I feel I mean, whatever it is,
Speaker 1: but just yeah, you needed a human moment there where
Speaker 1: you wanted.
Speaker 3: To say, a human moment.
Speaker 1: Yes, you relate to him and you relate to his pain.
Speaker 1: And he didn't give anyone that. So when we come back,
Speaker 1: you mentioned he got emotional at the end, we'll talk
Speaker 1: about how he's feeling since that acquittal and how he
Speaker 1: says he is now preparing for the next battle. And
Speaker 1: welcome back everyone to this episode of Amy and TJ.
Speaker 1: We are talking about the Uvaldi police officer, the former
Speaker 1: officer who was acquitted this week on twenty nine counts
Speaker 1: of child endangerment for what prosecutor said was in action,
Speaker 1: his inaction at the rob Elementary School nearly four years ago.
Speaker 1: And the big headline was that he said on microphone,
Speaker 1: looking back after everything, he has no regrets. He said
Speaker 1: he took an order from his chief at the time
Speaker 1: and he doesn't regret his actions. It was a tough
Speaker 1: thing to hear, and he said it fairly stoically, flanked
Speaker 1: by his attorneys, but he did get emotional towards the
Speaker 1: end of the interview when he talked about the personal
Speaker 1: toll this is taken on him and his family. He
Speaker 1: says he can never return to Uvaldi and Euvaldi is
Speaker 1: where he was born, where he was raised, and where
Speaker 1: he worked. And he said this through a lot of emotion,
Speaker 1: and this is the part where he got emotional, and
Speaker 1: he said, this is a struggle for me, for my family,
Speaker 1: you know, to get up and leave.
Speaker 3: It's hard. Did your heart go out to him in
Speaker 3: that moment.
Speaker 2: From the moment the shooting happened, he did. I've not
Speaker 2: had a moment of anger necessarily. I want to direct
Speaker 2: towards him, disappointment, disappointment in some of this interview and all.
Speaker 2: But he's a human being and he messed up and
Speaker 2: people died, and that's but he won't admit that he
Speaker 2: he won't. Okay, he's not suggesting any responsibility is one thing,
Speaker 2: but to not even say, man, I thought to myself,
Speaker 2: if maybe I'd have done this, or maybe I'd have
Speaker 2: gone here, or maybe if I would have refused that order,
Speaker 2: or maybe if I just would have won. I think
Speaker 2: so many times of what I could have done differently
Speaker 2: to save one little.
Speaker 3: Bukaroo that would have been everything.
Speaker 1: Give me something that would have been everything, to parents
Speaker 1: to hear that he did it.
Speaker 2: It's my training. I couldn't see around the building. I
Speaker 2: never saw the guy. I saw this woman frantic. They
Speaker 2: sounded like excuses, and that doesn't help anybody heal. If
Speaker 2: you're not going to get a guilty verdict, give him something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just say I'm tortured thinking about what I should
Speaker 1: have done what I could have done, and it keeps
Speaker 1: me up at night. Just something to let the parents
Speaker 1: know that you feel you feel bad about what happened
Speaker 1: in your role in it.
Speaker 2: Maybe he's done that privately in some private messages. I
Speaker 2: don't know if they want to hear from this guy,
Speaker 2: but maybe we're saying it here and maybe it's taking
Speaker 2: place somewhere.
Speaker 1: Else perhaps, But the family members who showed up in
Speaker 1: court didn't seem to have any warm feelings towards him
Speaker 1: at all. Now, he did say in this interview that
Speaker 1: this was the first of two battles, and he said
Speaker 1: we're going to win the second one. He's talking about
Speaker 1: now these charges that are that have been filed against
Speaker 1: that chief, the former chief Pete Aaron Dondo, and he
Speaker 1: said that he talks with him every single day and
Speaker 1: he believes he is innocent. Now the chief has been
Speaker 1: charged with ten counts of child and najerment. I don't
Speaker 1: know how they came up with these different numbers for
Speaker 1: his response to the shooting. There's no trial date that's
Speaker 1: been set. But I go back to his no regret
Speaker 1: statement because he said I did the best I could
Speaker 1: with the information I was getting I don't regret it
Speaker 1: because I took an order from my chief, didn't he
Speaker 1: just throw the chief under the bus with that statement
Speaker 1: right there.
Speaker 2: I haven't heard the chief thing throughout the story. Maybe
Speaker 2: I've just overlooked it, but.
Speaker 1: This is the first I heard it, and I kept
Speaker 1: thinking it was interesting that he then went on to
Speaker 1: say that he doesn't think the chief did anything wrong.
Speaker 1: He thinks the chief is innocent. He speaks with the
Speaker 1: chief every day, but he in that statement, literally blamed
Speaker 1: him for his own.
Speaker 2: Sight at the time. Was he But yeah, he's saying,
Speaker 2: somebody else told me not to do anything.
Speaker 1: I think that's interesting. Now we also learned a little
Speaker 1: bit about who he is. Fifty two years old, and
Speaker 1: you talked a little bit about this, but he talked
Speaker 1: about working as a school police officer after a decade
Speaker 1: with the Yuvaldi Police Department. But before that, I didn't
Speaker 1: realize this. He spent eighteen years as a teacher. For
Speaker 1: whatever reason, that makes what happen feel even worse, Like
Speaker 1: he knew what it was like to be in those classrooms, unarmed, unprepared,
Speaker 1: with that responsibility of those children in your classroom, trying
Speaker 1: to protect them. It feels like, Wow, had I known
Speaker 1: he was a teacher for eighteen years before he became
Speaker 1: a police officer, that feels extra disappointing.
Speaker 2: You know, it feels like he should have stayed in
Speaker 2: the classroom, that maybe he wasn't cut out to be
Speaker 2: a police officer. Maybe if he was in a classroom
Speaker 2: and the shooting happened, he could have saved more lives.
Speaker 2: In that mindset, there was something that as a police officer,
Speaker 2: he didn't put himself in harm's way or first, as
Speaker 2: the prosecution was arguing, you cannot there is zero chance
Speaker 2: or I could predict what I would do in that situation.
Speaker 2: But what I can tell you is that as a parent,
Speaker 2: I can tell you what I would do because I
Speaker 2: would do exactly what those other parents did or had
Speaker 2: to physically be restrained to keep from going in there
Speaker 2: to say their kids, and the guy with the gun
Speaker 2: didn't go.
Speaker 1: And you wonder if Adrian Gonzalez had a child in there,
Speaker 1: if he would have acted differently.
Speaker 2: The ifs and this and that, and now it's just
Speaker 2: your your heart does go out to him and want
Speaker 2: to reserve room for that. Don't know him personally at all,
Speaker 2: and really listening to him talk about kids and being
Speaker 2: a teacher, sounded like a good dude.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he really does.
Speaker 2: So this is just awful, and the families seem like
Speaker 2: they're getting victimized all over again. Yeah, so it's just awful.
Speaker 2: But yeah, the other trial is coming, so they're gonna
Speaker 2: have to go through this.
Speaker 1: They're gonna have to go through this one more time.
Speaker 1: But you know, just seeing how these other trials have happened,
Speaker 1: from the Parkland trial to now this Uvaldi trial, there
Speaker 1: hasn't been any closure for these families where they feel
Speaker 1: like they got some justice because of the lack of protection,
Speaker 1: perhaps we could say for their children. We will see
Speaker 1: what happens when the chief goes to trial, and as
Speaker 1: soon as we have that trial date, any new information
Speaker 1: on this, of course, will bring it to you. But
Speaker 1: in the meantime, thank you so much for listening to us.
Speaker 3: Everyone. I'm made me Roebuck alongside T. J. Holmes. We'll
Speaker 3: talk to you soon.