1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: I came from a beautiful neighborhood, had a beautiful life. 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: day of my high school year. 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 2: I was going to be a senior. 5 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: At twenty two, I was set to start college. 6 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 2: I woke up and my life was never the same again. 7 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw 8 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: freedom ever since after that. 9 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: It's like roach mode town. 10 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: Once you get in, you and I can'tnam. 11 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: This is wrong for conviction with Jason Flamm, I'm particularly 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: thrilled today to have as our guest my good friend 13 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: Doug Delosa. Doug, welcome to the show. 14 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, Jason. 15 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,199 Speaker 2: Having worked with the Nisis Project now for twenty years 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 2: as my role as a founding board member, I thought 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 2: I had heard everything until I heard Doug's story. So 18 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: you were living in Louisiana, right, I grew up there. 19 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: I was born and raised in New Orleans, Louisiana. At 20 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: the time, I wasn't living in New Orleans proper, but 21 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: I was living just outside of New Orleans in the 22 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: city of Kenna. I was married. My wife and I 23 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: had been together a little over ten years. We had 24 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: two beautiful children, a son who was seven at the 25 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: time and a daughter who was five. 26 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: Right, So you had a little yard and basically some 27 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: neighbors and sort of like we think of in New York, 28 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: we think everything's a cull the sack. Right, we have 29 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 2: this strange region America as a series of called the Sack. 30 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,639 Speaker 2: But basically, am I paying the right picture? 31 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: Yes? 32 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: Until it all went wrong? 33 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely, until that American dream turned into the American nightmare. 34 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 2: Right, And it's a nightmare of proportions that are impossible 35 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: to overstate. You were at home with your wife and kids, right, 36 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: and tell us what happened. 37 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: It was a typical Friday evening in our lives. Fast 38 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: forward to about two thirty in the morning on Saturday morning, 39 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:29,679 Speaker 1: September twenty seventh, and I woke up, sat up in bed. 40 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: I heard a noise. The noise that I was positive 41 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: I heard was our pet parrot, squawking and fluttering around 42 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: in its cage. I get up from bed, Tell my wife, 43 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to check on Andy. That was the name 44 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: of the bird. 45 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 2: And what was your wife's name. 46 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: My wife's name was Glinda. Right, I get up, I 47 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: go downstairs. As soon as I got to the foot 48 00:02:55,639 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: of the stairs. One person came from the side of me, 49 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: out of our bathroom area, and this person immediately struck 50 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: me with an object that I think was a piece 51 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: of mob pandle or a broomstick. Another person came from 52 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: the kitchen area and immediately knocked me to the ground, 53 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: and the two individuals, I don't know how long it lasted, 54 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: probably less than thirty seconds, kicked me, beat me until 55 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: I lost consciousness. Sometime later I was regaining consciousness. I'm 56 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: not sure how long I laid on the floor, but 57 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: I realized thing that sort of frightened me. At first, 58 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: I couldn't move my fans and feet were tied behind 59 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: my back. I was hog tied, and I was struggling 60 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: to gain consciousness and put my thought process together to 61 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: figure out what had happened. After whether it was one 62 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: minute or ten minutes, I started calling for my wife. 63 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: Didn't get any response at all. 64 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: So you're at the foot of the stairs, at the. 65 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: Foot of the stairs, inside of what would have been 66 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: our den, right. 67 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 2: And she's and she's upstairs, she's upstairs, upstairs in the bedroom. 68 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: Getting no response at all from my wife. I called 69 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: for my seven year old son, Dennis. And on the 70 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: third of the fourth call from my son, I heard 71 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: him stirring upstairs. He answered me. Initially, he went into 72 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: the master bedroom and I could hear him say, Daddy, 73 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: where are you. I see Mommy, but she's sleeping, and 74 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: I said, Daddy's downstairs. Please come downstairs. He came downstairs 75 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: and I told him, Dennis, two bad men had broken 76 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: in the house and they hurt Daddy. But I'm gonna 77 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: be all right. I need you to untie my hands. 78 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: He couldn't untie my hands because the rope was tied 79 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: so tightly. Then I asked him to go in the kitchen, 80 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: please get a knife and try to cut the rope. 81 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: He came back with a knife, but he was panicking 82 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: because he said, Daddy, I'm scared because I can see 83 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: four legs under the blind or the curtain in the 84 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: kitchen leading out to the patio. I can see people 85 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: standing on the patio, and I'm afraid it's the bad 86 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: men that hurt you. And I sort of panicked myself then, 87 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: and I said, Dennis, pick up the phone. The phone 88 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: was right there on the landing of the stairs. I 89 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: said dial nine one one, and he immediately picked up 90 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: the phone dial nine one one. He says, what do 91 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: I say? And I said, just tell him you need help, 92 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: that your daddy's hurt. And you had seen two men 93 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: standing on the patio. I don't think he told them 94 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: that exact anyway, he got their attention, and within minutes 95 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: police arrived on the scene. 96 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 2: And then the police arrive on the scene. And then 97 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 2: this is where things start to really get crazy, right, 98 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: because it seems like a pretty simple situation. You're hog tied. Right. 99 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: The police enter. The first thing one of them does 100 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: is kneel down next to me, ask me if I'm 101 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: all right. I guess I basically tell him, yeah, I'm fine. 102 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: He doesn't untime, he doesn't do anything, and I hear 103 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: another officer goes upstairs, and at that point in time, 104 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: the next thing I hear him is kicking a door 105 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: off the hinges. And it turned out that after my 106 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: son had gone in the bedroom when I called him 107 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: and he found his mother what he described as being asleep, 108 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: he must have pulled the door shut behind him and 109 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: it just automatically locked. So so he kicks in the door. 110 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,559 Speaker 1: He kicks in the door. When he kicks in the door, 111 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: he really startles my daughter, who's in the bedroom next door, 112 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: and she starts crying hysterically, and at that point then 113 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: my son starts crying hysterically. And I'm I'm getting pretty 114 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: hysterical myself, laying on the floor. I'm still hogtied, and 115 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: I'm telling you what's going on, what's going on? And 116 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: policeman is trying to restrain me and keep me on 117 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: the ground. 118 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: Which is not that hard. 119 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: You're but go ahead, and I'm like, and he says, 120 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: don't worry, Everything'll be fine, and I mean, within moments, 121 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: it seems like ambulance attendants arrived on the scene. I 122 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: couldn't hear exactly what they were being told, but they 123 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: were being told something about my wife was in the 124 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: bedroom upstairs and that somebody needed to get my daughter 125 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: and bring her downstairs, which they did. And again I 126 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: don't know how much time was elapsing, but at some 127 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: point in time, more police officers arrived on the scene. 128 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: Eventually someone cut me free. Moments after they cut me free, 129 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: they told me that I would have to be taken 130 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: to the emergency room and that the other paramedic team 131 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: was working on my wife and i'd see her there, 132 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: and also at some point in time they asked me 133 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: if there was anybody that they could call to take 134 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: care of my children. I'm being treated in the emergency room. 135 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: I don't know how much later again, was it ten 136 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: or fifteen minutes? Was it an hour later? My brother 137 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: and a priest come into the emergency room, and they 138 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: informed me that my wife had been killed. 139 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 2: And at this point, you're I mean, You've just been 140 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 2: through an impossibly traumatic experience, and now you're getting hit 141 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 2: with this news, and the whole world must be collapsing 142 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: around you. At this point in time. 143 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: It was pretty hard to believe what I was being told. 144 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: I think I almost went in the shock when they 145 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: told me my wife had been killed, And I mean, 146 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: I just can't process what I'm being told and come 147 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: up with any logical reason why it had happened. 148 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 2: And then you get back with your kids and try 149 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: to piece things back together. You had given the police 150 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: the information that they wanted right about it, basically the 151 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 2: story that you just told us. 152 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:09,479 Speaker 1: I had recalled everything I could remember to the police. 153 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: Except for when you were unconscious, of course, which was 154 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: that's the only missing part. And then they were having 155 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 2: trouble solving the case. 156 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: Right, There had been considerable criticism of the police department 157 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: for not solving having any viable leads in this case, 158 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: demanding to know from the police chief what were they doing, 159 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: how were they protecting the neighborhood. I had gotten a 160 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: little bit vocal, and I probably said on more than 161 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: one occasion, all of these stupid son of a bitches 162 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: need to be fired because they don't appear to know 163 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: what they're doing. Their actions were, in my mind, reminiscent 164 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: of the old Keystone cops in slapstick comedies, because they 165 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: just didn't appear to be very. 166 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 2: Bright, right, Okay, And so obviously the police, you know, 167 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 2: they're feeling a lot of pressure and they're feeling a 168 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: little they're getting their back up about this, right, right. 169 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: So then comes the craziest part, in some ways the 170 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: craziest part of the story, right, which is that now 171 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 2: we're three months from the day to the crime basically. 172 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: Right, we're now the morning of December twenty ninth. 173 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 2: I was it's hot, it's hot, inis, it's. 174 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: Very warm in Louisiana. I'm deciding I'm going to put 175 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: out the Christmas tree. It's starting. It was a live tree. 176 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: It's starting to drop needles all over, so I tell 177 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: my children I'll be right back. I'm just going to 178 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: put the Christmas tree out for the trash. I've got 179 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: a pair of cutoff jeans on, nothing else. And as 180 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: I'm putting the tree in the back of my house 181 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: by the curve for the trash, I hear Doug Delosa 182 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: turn around and I sort of turn around, and I'm 183 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: likes in shock. I have no idea how many police 184 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: officers are there, at minimum of six, maybe ten or more. 185 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: I have many no idea how many news cameras are there. 186 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 1: Probably as many personnel were there as there were police 187 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: officers pointing cameras at me, and the police pointing guns 188 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: at me, and they say, you know why we're We're 189 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: here to rest you for the murder or your wife. 190 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: And I'm just like thinking to myself, this can't be true. 191 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: You know, this nightmare just keeps getting worse and worse. 192 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: I knew that I had been labeled to suspect, but 193 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: I never, in my wildest imagination thought that it would 194 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: evolve into an arrest. I'm not dressed except for with 195 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,599 Speaker 1: a pair of cutoffs on. My children are in their pajamas, 196 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: and I asked the one detective, could I please go 197 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: dress my children and call somebody to take them well. 198 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: As I was changing their clothes, I turned to this 199 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: man who couldn't have been more than two to three 200 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: feet away from me, standing right in my face, and 201 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: I asked him. I said, detective Dote, why are you 202 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: doing this to me? Why are you doing this to 203 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: my children? You know that I didn't kill my wife. 204 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: And this police officer when I asked him that question, 205 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: he had the look of a wild man on his face, 206 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: and he almost, I don't know how to describe it. 207 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: His voice was almost venomous, and he says, man, fuck you, 208 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: fuck your children, and fuck that dead wife of yours. 209 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: I didn't ask that stupid bitch to die in my city. 210 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 1: And he goes on to say, he says, why should 211 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: I give a fuck about you or your children? Do 212 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: you care about me and my children? My job's on 213 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: the line, and he said, you have asked that I 214 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: be terminated in competence. Well, you know what, I don't 215 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,079 Speaker 1: know who did it. Maybe I know you didn't do it, 216 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: but I can build the case against you, So you're it. 217 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: So you're you know, you go to trial, and well, 218 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 2: they withheld several critical pieces of evidence from the defense, 219 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 2: that which is called the Brady violation, which which would 220 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 2: have excluded you and would have led to you being 221 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 2: found innocent. Do you want to talk about that. 222 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: The trial from start to finish, nine days had passed, 223 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: and from the very beginning, the two district attorneys prosecuting 224 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: me told the jury that they were never going to 225 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: hear any direct evidence that tied me to this crime. 226 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: That basically what they were trying to convict me on 227 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: was a theory of how I did it and why 228 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: I did it, And what was going to be important 229 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: to the jury to find me guilty was that I 230 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: had no evidence to support my story that two black 231 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: men broke into my house that night, beat me unconscious, 232 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: hogtied me, and at some point in time killed my wife. 233 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 2: Right now, But the reason we know that you couldn't 234 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 2: provide any proof is because they were withholding the proof 235 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: that they had. They had the investigators. You didn't have investigators. 236 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: They had all the guys sweeping the house and doing 237 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 2: the whole thing exactly. 238 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: They were fingerprints found in several places throughout the house 239 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: that didn't belong to me, any of my family members, 240 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: any of our friends, anyone, any member of the investigative 241 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: team that had all been ruled out. And these fingerprints 242 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: found throughout the house belonged to someone, but we have 243 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: no idea who they belonged to. 244 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: But they didn't tell you that. 245 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: No, their fingerprint expert committed perjury on the stand when 246 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: he said absolutely no other fingerprints were found in the house. 247 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: Can we talk about the cab driver for a second, 248 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: because that's one to me, that's one that's always stuck 249 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 2: in my mind. It's really you. 250 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: Know, sometime after I was arrested, well, actually let's back 251 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: up to right after my wife's funeral, three days after 252 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: the murder, a taxi driver came forward to the Kent 253 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: of Police Department and he said, I think I may 254 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: have some testimony that would help you catch the people 255 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: who killed this lady, meaning my wife. And as the 256 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: story goes in his written deposition to the police, he 257 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: was dropping off affair in that neighborhood, which at that 258 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: time was exclusively white. There would have been no reason 259 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: whatsoever to have seen blacks in that particular neighborhood. 260 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 2: At least aboot three in the morning. 261 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, least of all at three to four o'clock in 262 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: the morning. And he goes on to give in his 263 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: written deposition that as he was driving down this one street, 264 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: he saw two black men leaving the vicinity of the 265 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: front of my house carrying what would have fit the 266 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: description of some of the items I told police were 267 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: taken from my house. And he says that as his 268 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: lights shone on the two men, it appeared that they panicked. 269 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: They ran to a silver van that was waiting, and 270 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: they sped off in a reckless manner. And he found 271 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: that very unusual and thought it was important to bring 272 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: that testimony to the police, which he did. 273 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 2: As it was, But they, of course withheld that from 274 00:17:58,440 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: the defense illegally. 275 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: They withheld that and said that there was nobody had 276 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: ever seen anything regarding any black men in that neighborhood, 277 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 1: much less in the vicinity of my home. Now fast 278 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: forward another six to seven months. I'm at trial. This 279 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: good citizen is reading in the newspaper and hearing on 280 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: the TV that I'm undergoing a trial for the murder 281 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,479 Speaker 1: of my wife. Well, he just doesn't understand, and at 282 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: this point he doesn't trust the police because he's already 283 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: gone to the police twice. So he shows up at 284 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 1: the courthouse somehow manages to talk to one of the 285 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: two or maybe perhaps both, of the district attorneys who 286 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 1: were trying the case, and he tells his story to them, 287 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: and they very nonchalantly brush him off and said, oh, 288 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: don't worry. We presented your written statement to mister Dolosa's attorney. 289 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 1: He reviewed, but in light of the overwhelming evidence against him, 290 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: he knows that your testimony wouldn't do any good, so 291 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: he decided not to call you as a witness, which 292 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: was a total lie. They hadn't given any of that 293 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: information to my attorney. And one of the biggest parts 294 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: of their case was over and over again they repeated 295 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: to the jury, no one repeat, no one saw anything 296 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: suspicious in that neighborhood that night, much less two black men. 297 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: And that's why you must find mister Dolosa guilty because 298 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: he was lying. 299 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 2: The jury comes back, they find you guilty and sends 300 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 2: you to life in prison. Now, the only thing that 301 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 2: can make it worse is they're going to send you 302 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 2: to what is arguably the worst prison in America in Louisiana, 303 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 2: which is this date, which has the highest prison population. 304 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: By far, Louisiana does have three times higher rate of 305 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 2: incarceration than the rest of the country per capita, and 306 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 2: of course America has a five times higher rate than 307 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 2: the rest of the world. So it's off the chain. 308 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 2: But now you're being sent to Angola prison farm, and 309 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 2: let's talk about that. Well. 310 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: Arriving at the Louisiana State Penitentiary, which they call Angola, 311 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 1: it was beyond culture shock. I didn't know what to expect. 312 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: I'd heard numerous rumors that scared the hell out of me. 313 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: But I arrived at Angola and one of the first 314 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: things that I guess was really strange was they put 315 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: you in an initial classification to decide where you're going 316 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: to be housed. And I'm going before these classification offices 317 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: and they decide that they're going to put me in 318 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: a work cell block for my protection rather than general population. 319 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: And then they make a statement that's pretty odd. They 320 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: said that they don't have a white cell available to 321 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: put me in, so I'd have to be sent to 322 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: a security cell while they prepare a white cell. And 323 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: I'm like, what the hell is a white cell. At 324 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: that time, they still believed in segregating the white and 325 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 1: black prisoners at Angola, they didn't mix white and blacks 326 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: in the same cell. But my very first night in Angola, 327 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: I'm in a disciplinary tier and I'm in a cell, 328 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: and there's someone down the tier in another cell acting up, 329 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: and at some point in time, he throws human waste 330 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: on a security guard, and I'm just like, scared shitless. 331 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on. Their guards would appear 332 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: to be swat uniforms and riot shields and everything coming 333 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: down the tier. They're dragging this person out by force. 334 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: They're beaten him, and I guess I'm curious. I'm sort 335 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: of looking, you know, I guess maybe I should have 336 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: known better than to try to look. When one of 337 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: the gods saw me looking, He's like, what the fuck 338 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: are you looking at? He turns around and sprayed me 339 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: with a pepper spray of mace for about twenty thirty 340 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: seconds wow. And the only thing I knew was my 341 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: lungs were burning, my face was burning, and it was 342 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: sort of like a welcomed Angola. That was my first 343 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: night in the penitentiary. 344 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 2: So and then things get even crazier. So you end 345 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 2: up working on a chain gang is that right. 346 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know that chain gang is a 347 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: little bit misleading because we're not actually linked by chains. 348 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 2: Right, But it's a term that applies. 349 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: To it's a group of inmates working under the supervision 350 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: of gun guards on. 351 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 2: Horses in the swamps. 352 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: It could be swamps, it could be anywhere on the farm. 353 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 2: Here's a clip where Burl camee the warden talks about 354 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: the infamous history of Louisiana State Penitentiary. 355 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 3: The work in the farm is critical, Angela. That's what 356 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 3: it is. It's a plantation prison. It was that way 357 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 3: throughout its entire history, so very important that we have 358 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 3: agriculture here on the farm that provides work for the inmate, 359 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 3: which you know is good for them because they have 360 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 3: something to do to use after energy and so forth. 361 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: It turned out that I was working in what they 362 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: called camp A Line twenty one under one of the 363 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: most vicious inhuman farm bosses that Angola had at the time, 364 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 1: and I found it difficult at my age and my 365 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: physical condition to keep up with the average man who 366 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 1: was only in their early twenties. And I'm thirty seven, 367 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: thirty eight years old at this time, in horrible shape, 368 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: but one of the things that this particular field foreman 369 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: used to enjoy doing to torment the people under his supervision. 370 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: He would put us, say on the levee cutting high 371 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: grass with what they called the ditchbank blade, which is 372 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: it's impossible to describe on air, but it's this huge, 373 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: heavy cutting blade. And what he would do is they 374 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: might have been close to one hundred men in the line. 375 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: He would put us up on the levee and they 376 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: would be two inmates with a water bucket, and he'd 377 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: tell the people with the water bucket, I want y'all 378 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: to move about a mile down on the road with 379 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: the gun guard supervising you. And he said, y'all keep 380 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: moving that water bucket and don't let anybody have water, 381 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: because it says until ten people pass out from the heat, 382 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: I'm not letting anybody drink water. And that was a 383 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: typical day working for this man mac Shaw, where he 384 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: would see people pass out fall out, as we'd say, 385 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: from heat stroke, heat exhaustion, from lack of water, and 386 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: once whatever number he arbitrarily determined he wanted to pass 387 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: out and be carried off in the back of a 388 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: truck for disciplinary purposes. Then he'd let everybody else have 389 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: a drink of water. 390 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 2: And then then things got really crazy because at one 391 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 2: point you were singled out. 392 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: It was at more than one point. I mean, it 393 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: seemed it was something that happened day after day every 394 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: time I'd go in the field. I never had the 395 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: distinction of being one of the people. I guess I 396 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: was fortunate enough that I could go without drinking water 397 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: longer than other people that I might not be one 398 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: of the first five to ten people to pass out 399 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: from heatstroke and lack of water. But I certainly wasn't 400 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: keeping up with the work quote according to this field forman, 401 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: and he would just almost every day that I went 402 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: to work, he would write me up on a disciplinary report, 403 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: lock me up in administrative segregation to be disciplined by 404 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: the disciplinary court. They would hear my case and say 405 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: it would say something like I flatly refused to work. Well, 406 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,959 Speaker 1: I never ever flatly refused to work. I simply worked 407 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: until I couldn't work anymore, or I worked at the 408 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: fastest pace I was capable of. But the field foreman 409 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: never wrote the truth on a disciplinary report, and the 410 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: disciplinary board that helped court, they didn't they knew what 411 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: the truth was, but they would just continue to stack 412 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: punishment on you and I'd be sent back out to work. 413 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 2: It's it's just I don't I can't even I can't 414 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 2: find any words. The good news is you're a smart guy. 415 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 2: You're a guy of an educated guy, somebody who can 416 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 2: can really think for himself. So you get to the 417 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: point where you realize, if you're going to get out, 418 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,479 Speaker 2: you're going to have to be the one to do it. 419 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 2: Is that Is that a fair statement? 420 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: That absolutely? And I would say that. I worked as 421 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: a clerk in an air conditioned office in the print 422 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: shop silk screen shop at Angola for a little bit 423 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: over a year, but I knew I my ultimate goal 424 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: was I want to get the hell out of prison. 425 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: And everybody that I associated with said, you know, you'd 426 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: probably be better off going to be what they call 427 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: an inmate council substitute or prison lawyer working in the 428 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: law library, and I finally decided I'd apply for that job. 429 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: I did end up with a job over there, and 430 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: over the next several years, I learned the law. I 431 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,239 Speaker 1: think I became pretty proficient with it, and after I 432 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: had exhausted all of my appeals in state court. After 433 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: I had gone through hundreds of thousands of dollars on 434 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: about seven different lawyers who all promised to do something, 435 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: but no one followed through and did what I hired 436 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: him to do. I finally sat back, spent six months researching, 437 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: in another two to three months writing my own federal 438 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: writ one hundred percent on my own or with having 439 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: other inmate councils review it give me their critique. I 440 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: filed my rit of habeas corpus into the federal court 441 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: system on my own. I didn't know what my chances 442 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: were going to bed. I figured slim to none at best, 443 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: but I felt like, at this point in time, if 444 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: I'm denied, I'm going to be denied on my own terms, 445 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: and I'll have given it my best shot. Finally, one 446 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: day they call me for legal mail. So I get 447 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: up at like five o'clock in the morning go eat breakfast. 448 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: I went to the window where they pass out the 449 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: legal mail. They had me a little brown envelope and 450 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: I was scared shitless to open it. 451 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: I'm like, because if it's if it's the wrong answer, 452 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 2: you're done. This is your last appeal, right. 453 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: It's the wrong answer, I had a plan to escape 454 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: from Angola, and my escape from Mangola was I had 455 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: enough drugs in my possession hidden that probably within twenty 456 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: four hours, I was going to od and that's how 457 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: I was going to get out of prison. And that 458 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,239 Speaker 1: had been something I had planned for months, anticipating a 459 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: negative response from the court. 460 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 2: So I'm getting the chills right now. So you've got 461 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 2: this envelope and it's gonna basically tell you whether you're 462 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: gonna live or die. At this point, you've been in 463 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: prison for fourteen years. 464 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: Fourteen years. It's been a long time, exactly. I'd put 465 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: up with as much as I felt like I could 466 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: live with. And I felt like my children were getting 467 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: up in age, and as much as I love them, 468 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: as much as I felt that they loved me, they 469 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: continue to visit me almost every opportunity that they got. 470 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: I felt I was doing them a disservice I having 471 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: them come to visit me in prison, by having them 472 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: try to explain to their friends in college, well, why 473 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: can't you hang out with us this weekend? Oh, because 474 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to the penitentiary to see my dad. And 475 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: I think I probably was looking at it the wrong way, 476 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: and I know I would have heard them tremendously, but 477 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: I felt like the best thing for myself and for 478 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: my children in the long run was to take my life. 479 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 2: Fortunately it didn't come to that. Because you're sitting here now, 480 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: and so you've got this envelope, what do you do? 481 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 2: Do you open it? 482 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: I went to the law library where I worked, and 483 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: I locked it in the bottom cabinet. I'm like, I'm 484 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: the only person here this early in the morning. I 485 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: just need somebody else around me when I open this up. 486 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: So about half hour forty five minutes later, a couple 487 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: of my close friends at work in the law library 488 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: lived around me. They came in and I told then 489 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: my one friend, Mike Singletary, who was my closest friend 490 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: in the law library at that time. I said, Mike, 491 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: I got my decision from the Federal court. And he says, well, 492 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: what's it say? I said, I don't know, Mike, I 493 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: don't have the nerve to open it. And he says, 494 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: oh my god, he said, come on, give me that envelope. 495 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: I'll open it for you. So I said, I said yeah, 496 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: but I said he took it out of my hands 497 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: after I got it out of the cabinet. He opened 498 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: it and I said, now, let me read it, Mike, 499 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: don't so. I took a couple of big, deep breasts, 500 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: and I don't know how. My heart was probably beaten 501 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: two hundred beats a minute, and I was shaking. 502 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 2: And mine is right now, and I know the aser, and. 503 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: I opened the writ to the last page, and all 504 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: of a sudden, I just stopped shaking, and I guess 505 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: sort of a smile over my face, and for the 506 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,719 Speaker 1: first time since my wife's funeral, I cried. I started 507 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: crying almost uncontrollably, when I read that the magistrate judge 508 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: recommended that my conviction be set aside and that I'll 509 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: be freed. I just, against all odds, I went up 510 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: against the most conservative federal magistrate in the Eastern District 511 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: for the State of Louisiana, who, according to what I 512 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: had been told, had never before granted a writ filed 513 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: by an inmate on their own. Behalf. 514 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: That's a happy ending to an incredibly terrible saga. And 515 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 2: you're back and I've gotten to know you. While Doug 516 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 2: is now working closely with the Rising Foundation in New Orleans, 517 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 2: helping other ax hooneries to rebuild their lives on the outside, 518 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 2: using the skills that he has to help them with 519 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 2: everything from you know, you name a job applications, to 520 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 2: tax problems, to building their houses to you know, fixing things, 521 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 2: getting employments. He's become a tremendous advocate for not only 522 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 2: the Innocence Project and innocence projects, although in your case 523 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 2: you represented yourself, but really somebody who has devoted himself 524 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 2: to helping others, which is quite an extraordinary thing. It 525 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 2: makes me really so proud to know you and to 526 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 2: be a part of your life. It's important to note 527 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,399 Speaker 2: in all of this that the compensation that you were 528 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 2: given ultimately by the state was paltry, to say the least, 529 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 2: right because people ask me all the time, well, these 530 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: guys must get they must get millions of dollars when 531 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 2: they get out. I mean, after what you went through 532 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 2: fourteen years and a goal to prison and all this stuff, 533 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 2: almost being beaten to death, all the other indignities that 534 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 2: you suffered, and the fact that you were so egregiously framed. 535 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: The compensation in the state of Louisiana allows for twenty 536 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars a year for a maximum of ten 537 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: years of incarceration. It's doled out at twenty five thousand 538 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,760 Speaker 1: dollars a year over ten years, which gives a person 539 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: barely enough to exist on if you have a very 540 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 1: modest lifestyle for ten years. But the other thing, I mean, 541 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: in my case, it fell short one hundred and thirty 542 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: seven thousand dollars short of my actual expenses, So I 543 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: didn't even recoup what I spent. 544 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 2: Because you had actually spent the money on attorneys. 545 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: On my legal defense. 546 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 2: You basically paid ten thousand dollars a year to be 547 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 2: locked up for fourteen years, is what it comes down to. 548 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: That's about what it comes down to. 549 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 2: It's important to note that there are twenty states that 550 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 2: have no compensation statutes, and the ones that do have 551 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 2: compensation statutes, some of them are even worse than Louisiana, 552 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 2: like Wisconsin. 553 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: You know, people think that, oh, you were proven that 554 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: you were wrongfully convicted, you must have gotten millions. Well no, 555 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,720 Speaker 1: I'm still struggle to this day. I was never able 556 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: to repay my children for selling their interest in their 557 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: family homes so I could hire that last attorney. And 558 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: it's just not right, not just for me, but for 559 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: all of the men in Louisiana and elsewhere too, and elsewhere. 560 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 2: According to the National Registry of his Hoonerations, there have 561 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 2: been forty six exonerations in Louisiana since nineteen eighty nine, 562 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 2: and the coarter them occurred in Jefferson County, the same 563 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 2: office that prosecuted you. The sad truth is that there's 564 00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 2: probably hundreds, if not thousands of other DOUGDA in Louisiana alone. 565 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 2: It's certainly around the country, and I can tell you 566 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 2: that we won't stop until we exonerate as many of 567 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 2: them as we possibly can. People say to me, you 568 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 2: know my work at the Innstance Pride, They say what, 569 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 2: But prosecutors, they don't lie that. People don't understand likes. 570 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 2: It's unfortunately, it's common, which is why we asked Nina 571 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 2: Morrison to join us in the studio today. Welcome to 572 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 2: Ronful Conviction with Jason Flammer's good to have you here. 573 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 2: Thank you, good to be here. 574 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 4: So. 575 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,280 Speaker 2: Nina is the senior staff attorney at the Innocence Project. 576 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 2: She litigates claims for access to post conviction DNA evidence 577 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 2: under both federal civil rights laws and state DNA testing statutes. 578 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 2: To date, Ms Morrison has served as lead or co 579 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 2: counsel for more than twenty innocent prisoners who are freed 580 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 2: from prison or even death row based on DNA or 581 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 2: other newly discovered evidence. So, can you explain to us 582 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 2: what exactly is a Brady violation? We talk about it 583 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 2: a lot on the show. Yeah, So, a Brady violation is. 584 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 4: Where a prosecutor doesn't give the defense evidence that either 585 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 4: the prosecutor or the police or some other agent of 586 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 4: the state like a crime lab has that is favorable 587 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 4: to the defendant's case. Sometimes it's proof of their innocence, 588 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 4: you know, another suspect who is seen in the area, 589 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 4: somebody else who admitted to the crime. Sometimes it's evidence 590 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 4: that shows that a witness, you know, who claimed to 591 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 4: be an eyewitness, was you know, high out of their 592 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 4: minds that night according to five other people, or couldn't 593 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 4: have seen what they said they said. There's a whole 594 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 4: array of stuff. It's basically anything that helps the defense. 595 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 4: And it's a strange system when you think about it, 596 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 4: because you know, prosecutors and defense lawyers go into court, 597 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 4: they're fighting hard in these big murder cases or rape 598 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 4: cases or other hard fought criminal trials, and The way 599 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 4: the law is set up is the prosecutor has to 600 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 4: give the other side something voluntarily that might make them lose, 601 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 4: and we trust them in most places to turn it over, 602 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 4: so they say, I'm fulfilling my Brady obligations, and there's 603 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,839 Speaker 4: no check on it until after the case is over, 604 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 4: and sometimes not even then until. 605 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 2: It's literally too late. And this leaves a very wide 606 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 2: lane open for the bad actors in the system, the 607 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 2: bad prosecutors to do what they feel like on a 608 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 2: given day, and to really railroad people who are just 609 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 2: regular people like you and I who get find themselves 610 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 2: stuck in this nightmare, people like Doug Delosa. 611 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 4: Yeah so, and there's even worse news in terms of 612 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 4: how it gets dealt with after the trial, because if 613 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 4: you discover that a prosecutor in your case withheld Brady 614 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 4: material something favorable to you, your conviction doesn't automatically get reversed. 615 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 4: You then, according to US Supreme Court case law, have 616 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 4: to show an appeals court that the violation is what 617 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 4: the courts call material, which means it actually made a difference. 618 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,760 Speaker 4: So you basically have to come in after the fact 619 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 4: when a jury never heard this information. A witness was 620 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 4: never cross examined on it, and say, you know, Judge, 621 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 4: if I'd had this, I would have argued this. I 622 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 4: would have said that the jury wouldn't have believed this person. 623 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 4: And here's why you have to kind of have a 624 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 4: mental do over, a hypothetical duover of the trial. And 625 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 4: if they say, eh, you know, it made a difference, maybe, 626 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,399 Speaker 4: but we don't know, it might not necessarily have made 627 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,800 Speaker 4: a difference in the outcome. So it's what's called harmless error. 628 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 2: So, Nina, I wanted to ask you how common are 629 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 2: these Brady violations. 630 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 4: You know, we don't know because by definition many of 631 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 4: them are hidden. We know that we have seen them 632 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,359 Speaker 4: in a very significant proportion of our cases. You know, 633 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,280 Speaker 4: there's at least fifteen featured cases on the Innocence Project 634 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 4: website just from the last few years that involve serious 635 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 4: Brady violations which we uncover in the course of investigating 636 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 4: a client's other claim of innocence. And there is no 637 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 4: scientific way to study them because by definition, there are 638 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 4: things that haven't been turned over. It's sort of like 639 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 4: everyone we find is in some ways by chance. You 640 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 4: don't have a right to get a lot of files 641 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 4: after somebody has been convicted. Things get destroyed. I wake 642 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 4: up at night sometimes worrying about you know, these days, 643 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,399 Speaker 4: when almost everything is electronic, we don't have the piece 644 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 4: of paper in the file anymore the way we used 645 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 4: to in the cases from the eighties and early nineties. 646 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 4: Now it's all in a memo on somebody's computer and 647 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 4: they hit delete, or that person leaves the office and 648 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 4: it's gone. It's in an email, it's in a voicemail, 649 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 4: it's in a text from a witness. 650 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 2: It's you know, you know, it's really a level of 651 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 2: evil that, in this particular case, I don't know what 652 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 2: else to call it. The prosecutor is just evil. 653 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 4: And you know, I know, Barry check in one of 654 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 4: your other episodes when you had Barry Gibbson, was talking 655 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 4: about this concept of noble cause corruption, which I think 656 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 4: is a very real phenomenon. You know, I don't think 657 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 4: even the prosecutors that we've caught red handed withholding evidence. 658 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,760 Speaker 4: I think most, if not all of them honestly believed 659 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 4: that they were doing it for a higher purpose, which 660 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 4: is they had a killer sitting in the courtroom who 661 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 4: was going to get away with murder if they didn't 662 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 4: win their case, and so they convinced themselves that whatever 663 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 4: they were holding back was not really proof of innocence. 664 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 4: It was something the defense would use to create a 665 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 4: smoke screen, right. But the laws of the law, you 666 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 4: have a job as an officer of the court to 667 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,799 Speaker 4: follow the law and turn it over. And now we 668 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 4: know that many of those people were actually innocent, so 669 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 4: we see what the real harm is from that skirting 670 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 4: the ethical line. 671 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 2: So that brings us to the sort of the practical 672 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 2: question of what can be done. 673 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 4: We had the Innocence Project are working on a couple 674 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 4: of things to police things before trial happened. So one 675 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 4: of the things we are trying to do is get 676 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 4: judges to take a more active role in ensuring that 677 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 4: Brady's guarantee is a real one by putting prosecutors on 678 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 4: the record issuing court orders to say, I want you 679 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 4: to check these five locations to see if there's anything 680 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 4: favorable to the defense, and I'm going to have a 681 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 4: conference a month before the trial to see how it's going. 682 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:13,839 Speaker 4: What have you turned over, what are you looking for? 683 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 4: And at that point the defense lawyer will have an 684 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 4: opportunity to speak up and say I haven't gotten anything 685 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 4: on the witness statements. I don't know who what these 686 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 4: witness statements are. And our theory is, you know, for example, 687 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 4: two black men came in and did this crime. Are 688 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,440 Speaker 4: there any reports of suspicious African Americans in the area, 689 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 4: whether you think they did it or not? You know, 690 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 4: is there anything we should investigate? And the reason why 691 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 4: you want to have the judges be policing it is 692 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 4: that if you lie to a judge, you can get 693 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,360 Speaker 4: charged with contemptive court and lose your law license and 694 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 4: even go to jail. And on the back end, we 695 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 4: need to take accountability seriously, you know, we need to 696 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 4: make sure that the state bars have a culture where 697 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 4: they can go after just as say what a lawyer 698 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 4: who doesn't give a client all their money back or 699 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 4: didn't do the job they were hired to do in 700 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 4: a trust and a states case or a civil case, 701 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 4: that they will go after the prosecutors who break the law, 702 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,720 Speaker 4: even if it's not politically easy to do. And then lastly, 703 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 4: you know, it is very hard, as you know, and 704 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 4: you've talked about on your show, for prosecutors to ever 705 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 4: be sued civilly and even for states or counties to 706 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 4: be held liable for the misconduct of prosecutors. Prosecutors are 707 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 4: what's called immune from suit in all but a few 708 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 4: very rare cases. 709 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,280 Speaker 2: And so if a prosecutor. 710 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 4: Knows of some favorable evidence and doesn't turn it over, 711 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 4: the court Supreme Court has said, well, you can go 712 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 4: after them on bar discipline, or you can maybe criminally 713 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 4: prosecute them. Talk about Fox and Penhouse, right, but you 714 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 4: can't see them unless there's a pattern and practice of violations, 715 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:54,239 Speaker 4: and those are very hard to prove. 716 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 2: And criminal prosecutions of prosecutors are extremely difficult. Not least 717 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 2: it was because proctters generally don't like prosecuting prosecutors. 718 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,879 Speaker 4: Correct, and they will air I mean, you know, they 719 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 4: will give every benefit of the doubt. Oh they missed it, 720 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 4: they were busy, they thought they turned it over, they 721 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,759 Speaker 4: put it in the wrong notebook, you know, yes they did. 722 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 4: The defense layer says they didn't have it, but we 723 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,319 Speaker 4: think they did. I mean, you know, and look, our 724 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 4: clients should have been so lucky to get the benefit 725 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,400 Speaker 4: of every doubt when they were being accused of a crime. 726 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,239 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being on Wrongful Conviction with 727 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 2: Jason Flumm And it was great it's great to have 728 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 2: you here. 729 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 4: Thanks so much, it's great to be here. 730 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 2: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 731 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,240 Speaker 2: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud 732 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,839 Speaker 2: donor to the Ennocence Project and I really hope you'll 733 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,320 Speaker 2: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 734 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 2: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot 735 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 2: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd 736 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,280 Speaker 2: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 737 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,880 Speaker 2: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 738 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,960 Speaker 2: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on 739 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,800 Speaker 2: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. 740 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava 741 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,799 Speaker 2: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one