Speaker 1: Did Robert Fisher live past April two thousand and one. Yes.
Speaker 1: From iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three. I'm John Walzac and
Speaker 1: this is Missing in Arizona, the story of a man
Speaker 1: who disappeared after allegedly killing his wife and kids, blowing
Speaker 1: up their suburban home, and escaping into the wilderness. Twenty
Speaker 1: three years later, I'm hunting Robert Fisher and I need
Speaker 1: your help. Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence
Speaker 1: and may not be suitable for all listeners.
Speaker 2: Phoenix, Arizona, Friday, December the eleventh, two forty three PM.
Speaker 1: Psycho nineteen sixty Hitchcock Panza camera across the Phoenix skyline
Speaker 1: credits dissolve into a black and white horizon. An ancient
Speaker 1: mountain looms in the distance, Camelback Mountain.
Speaker 2: Phoenix, Arizona, two thousand and two.
Speaker 1: And there on the mountain is Robert Fisher Alive?
Speaker 2: The reaction Part one.
Speaker 1: Let's circle back to episode fifteen. I told you about
Speaker 1: a person of interest. Tony Police got a lead that
Speaker 1: he helped Fisher before, during, and or after the murders.
Speaker 1: They interviewed him. He was nervous, breathing, heavily. Do you
Speaker 1: recognize the name Robert Fisher? No, he said, the guy
Speaker 1: who killed his family went to your church, blew up
Speaker 1: his house. Your wife knew his escaped, Your kids were
Speaker 1: friends FBI's ten most Wanted list. Ah, yes him. This
Speaker 1: is what gets me. The reaction Tony claiming not to
Speaker 1: recognize the name Robert Fisher. Scottsdale Lieutenant Hugh Lockerby, and
Speaker 1: former FBI agent Bob Caldwell, who interviewed him think he lied.
Speaker 1: So do I, which begs the question why why lie?
Speaker 1: Unless you have something to hide. I want to speak
Speaker 1: to Tony in person, look him in the eyes. So in
Speaker 1: late twenty twenty three, I show up at his house
Speaker 1: unannounced with our producer Paul Deckett. The door swings open.
Speaker 1: Tony's a big guy. I'm not. His wife and kids
Speaker 1: accused him of abuse. He's a person of interest in
Speaker 1: a triple homicide. I worry he'll fly into a rage,
Speaker 1: punch me, choke me worse. I side I escape routes
Speaker 1: and start asking questions. Tony speaks and shockingly doesn't stop
Speaker 1: for nearly twenty minutes. We're gonna play the whole interview.
Speaker 1: We disguised Tony's voice and bleeped personal details, but otherwise
Speaker 1: it's unedited. Pay close attention not only to what he says,
Speaker 1: but how he says it, his reaction. Hey, please, who
Speaker 1: I'm My name is John Walzach. I'm an investigative journalist
Speaker 1: in researching the case, and I was wondering if I
Speaker 1: could speak to you about Robert Fisher.
Speaker 3: You know, I I've talked to the FBI years ago
Speaker 3: about that whole thing. I don't want I don't have
Speaker 3: any information on that.
Speaker 1: Is it okay? If I can I speak to.
Speaker 3: Or I don't want to talk about it. I don't
Speaker 3: want to deal with that anymore, is all right? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Can I ask you any questions.
Speaker 3: You can ask? I don't have any information. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Did you know Robert Fisher at all?
Speaker 3: He went to the same church and I went to
Speaker 3: That's about it, and my kids played with his kids
Speaker 3: in the church there. When I got divorced, my ex
Speaker 3: wife said a bunch of stuff about me being friends
Speaker 3: with him or whatever, And then so the FBI talked
Speaker 3: to me about it, and I'm like, I don't know
Speaker 3: the guy really, So it gives me anxiety just to
Speaker 3: think about it. Because it's more about my ex wife
Speaker 3: and the trauma that or the stuff that she stirred
Speaker 3: up with at that was just vindictive.
Speaker 1: So so you you didn't know him at all.
Speaker 3: I couldn't pick him out if I saw him. I wouldn't.
Speaker 3: I don't even remember ever talking to him any of that.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I'm reaching out to basically everybody who I
Speaker 1: possibly can, but your name came up, so I wanted
Speaker 1: to reach out and speak to you.
Speaker 3: You know, I appreciate it, But like I told the
Speaker 3: FBI back then, I don't have any information. I don't
Speaker 3: know other than what probably what I remember reading and
Speaker 3: hearing what had happened, not necessarily knowing him or anything
Speaker 3: prior to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when they showed up, because I got the memo
Speaker 1: that they wrote after they spoke with you, what was
Speaker 1: your I mean, what do you think when they showed up?
Speaker 1: Like why are they here asking me about that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Like it was very bizarre, just like you guys
Speaker 3: coming up here, Like Okay, what do I have to
Speaker 3: do with any of this? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Did you have any idea why they were there or
Speaker 1: did you assume somebody said something or I know the
Speaker 1: f guy well, like like some that somebody told them something.
Speaker 3: Or Yeah, that's what I felt like, like somebody said
Speaker 3: said something. And as soon as I brought up my
Speaker 3: ex wife, the FBA stopped. Yeah.
Speaker 1: How long did they interview you?
Speaker 3: For? Just a couple of weeks. I think we went,
Speaker 3: they came that, they came to my work, and then
Speaker 3: I went down and I met with them and talked
Speaker 3: through a bunch of stuff. They wanted me to do
Speaker 3: a light detective test and I'm like at that point,
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm done. I don't have anything to contribute.
Speaker 3: You guys are you know? Yeah, basically wasting more time
Speaker 3: with me, And it was just one of those that
Speaker 3: I felt like it was more my ex wife just
Speaker 3: trying to cause problems in my life. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you think that's because your ex wife knew meryor
Speaker 1: because you guys went to the same church that because
Speaker 1: she knew Mary.
Speaker 3: And I don't even know how much she knew.
Speaker 1: Mary when they came and asked you. So their memo
Speaker 1: says that when they came and asked you.
Speaker 3: Have a card or anything I have, I can give
Speaker 3: you a personal card.
Speaker 1: So that's so I'm an investigator journalist out of Pittsburgh.
Speaker 1: I'm here working on this story. Paul works for iHeart Media.
Speaker 1: We're working on an audio documentary on the Fisher case.
Speaker 1: So but I've spent about ten months researching it. So
Speaker 1: I'm tracking down everything that I can. And I mean,
Speaker 1: and you know, full disclosure, I have the memo that
Speaker 1: they wrote after they spoke to you, so.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, they obviously let it go, so I but
Speaker 1: I didn't want to not attempt to that. So that's interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when when they spoke to you and they asked you
Speaker 1: if you knew who Robert Fisher was, the memo says
Speaker 1: that you said you didn't recognize the name Robert Fisher.
Speaker 3: Yeah. When they said to the person, I'm like, who's
Speaker 3: Robert Fisher? I know Fisher that I worked with, and
Speaker 3: I was kind of like, oh is it is it
Speaker 3: something to do with with work?
Speaker 1: But you didn't recognize even even though you guys went
Speaker 1: to the same church and he was accused of somebody
Speaker 1: who was accused of you didn't recognize his name.
Speaker 3: No, No, it was because it was such a remote
Speaker 3: thing for me, like I don't know who this guy
Speaker 3: really is. Yeah, it was a very traumatic time.
Speaker 4: At the church.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. Do you remember what year?
Speaker 1: Did do you stop going to the church at some point?
Speaker 1: I think what year that was, because this was two
Speaker 1: thousand and one that this happened.
Speaker 3: I was already not going to the church then, I believe, Yeah,
Speaker 3: got two thousand and one would have been Yeah, I
Speaker 3: would have not I know him in the church.
Speaker 1: Then, So when they spoke to you and asked you
Speaker 1: if you would take a light detector test, did you
Speaker 1: decline the light detector test?
Speaker 3: Just like, I don't want to deal with this because
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I've never taken a light
Speaker 3: of detector's test before, and like, what is it gonna?
Speaker 3: What is it gonna do? I mean, I had nothing
Speaker 3: to do with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So so i'man I have to flat out ask you,
Speaker 1: did you ever meet Robert Fitcher? Did you know him
Speaker 1: at all?
Speaker 3: I may have passed him in the church, but like
Speaker 3: I said, I would not know him if I saw
Speaker 3: him probably that wouldn't have known him by name. I
Speaker 3: wasn't affiliated with him in any way, so other than
Speaker 3: going attending the same church.
Speaker 1: So you know, the FBI in the Scotstco Police apartment
Speaker 1: saw your employment records. I don't know if you knew
Speaker 1: that for April two thousand and one. Do you remember
Speaker 1: where you were when that event? Dah, absolutely, because it
Speaker 1: was it was not very pleasant.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was out doing there's a project manager owned
Speaker 3: project out there, and they came in showing their badges
Speaker 3: and I was in the middle of a meeting. Very embarrassing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So they interviewed you at work and then you
Speaker 1: did you go down to the scottscol Police apartment.
Speaker 3: I went down to downtown. It was like this really
Speaker 3: undis descript building down like on Third Avenue downtown somewhere.
Speaker 1: If you remember, do you do you mind if I
Speaker 1: read you part of the memo that they wrote.
Speaker 3: And asked go ahead? Is that our fact?
Speaker 1: So says we next interviewed about his knowledge of Robert Fisher.
Speaker 1: At first, when we asked her if he knew Robert Fisher,
Speaker 1: he stated he did not recognize the name, and then
Speaker 1: they went on to explain what happened, and essentially, more
Speaker 1: or less, they noticed that during the interview with he
Speaker 1: appeared to be very nervous and was breathing heavily. Do
Speaker 1: you remember how you felt like when they showed.
Speaker 3: Up or kind of like I do right now, just
Speaker 3: like understandable. I don't. I don't want to tell anybody
Speaker 3: about that. It just feels like I'm being interrogated over
Speaker 3: something that I had nothing involved with him. Well, when
Speaker 3: I brought up my ex wife and the divorce and
Speaker 3: all that stuff that she and I went through, and
Speaker 3: the vindictive stuff that went on that fit the bill before,
Speaker 3: the things that she would try to do, like try
Speaker 3: to pin me on something that was around.
Speaker 1: You don't think it. You think it was your ex
Speaker 1: wife who spoke.
Speaker 3: To the I don't know. It's just that's what it
Speaker 3: felt like, and that's what I told him.
Speaker 1: So I have some I got I got it from records,
Speaker 1: but I don't know if somebody like for some reason
Speaker 1: sets I know that you know, and you're obviously they
Speaker 1: talked to a ton of people, so I know you're
Speaker 1: not the only person that they want, and they spoke
Speaker 1: to probably dozens or hundreds of people. So is there
Speaker 1: How how long were you about the church for you
Speaker 1: left be four two thousand moths that happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't remember how many years you went. There
Speaker 3: was a big church.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but do you they said that you recalled once
Speaker 5: they started speaking to you, that your wife, your ex wife,
Speaker 5: knew Mary, and that your kids knew the Fisher.
Speaker 3: Kids they went to the same they didn't. They knew
Speaker 3: them from church, going to the Sunday school and the
Speaker 3: same Sunday school classes. And they may have I don't
Speaker 3: know if they did any field trips or anything from
Speaker 3: a church standpoint within.
Speaker 2: Them or not.
Speaker 3: They never played with them outside.
Speaker 1: Of church, But I was the world did did do
Speaker 1: you know later on? Like afterwards, did any of them
Speaker 1: metual friends like like the Rodents, like Jim Roden or
Speaker 1: the pastor Cantelmo, Like, did did you know any of
Speaker 1: those people like that were friends with the Fishers?
Speaker 3: The name as you mentioned the names, I kind of
Speaker 3: remember the names now, but I honestly couldn't remember who
Speaker 3: who was friends with who? And who did what who
Speaker 3: at the church?
Speaker 1: Are you? I appreciate you answer answering. I apologize as
Speaker 1: to show up, but I mean you understand if I
Speaker 1: see see you know your name.
Speaker 3: And the memo, why would be curious? It's okay?
Speaker 1: Yeah, go like.
Speaker 6: When all that happened with Robert Fisher, like I imagine
Speaker 6: like it was a crazy thing to hear about right,
Speaker 6: Like do you remember like.
Speaker 3: When you said about what happened, like it was a
Speaker 3: horrible act about Yeah, I mean anybody and the fact
Speaker 3: that nobody's ever found him that's disturbing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you think, is this living in the woods somewhere?
Speaker 3: Do you think he like? You know, I can't even specially,
Speaker 3: I mean I've heard a lot of different things. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't know enough about him to say whether I
Speaker 3: could even say that he's he's a good survivalist or whatever,
Speaker 3: other than what I've heard the news and what you
Speaker 3: guys have done the reporters have put out.
Speaker 1: Have you ever been approached by a journalist? Or are
Speaker 1: we the first? You're the first, So I apologize that
Speaker 1: I know this is probably jarring for you, but it
Speaker 1: has been years since a lot of time. So when
Speaker 1: they when they I know they were at your work,
Speaker 1: but they also you said they brought you down to
Speaker 1: the to the f guy office or does this gousshill police?
Speaker 3: They asked me to come down there and that I
Speaker 3: met with him later. I didn't leave work and go
Speaker 3: with at that point, gotcha, I took their card and
Speaker 3: then probably I don't even if I still had their
Speaker 3: information around. But I was in the middle of custody,
Speaker 3: divorced stuff and all that going on, So it wasn't
Speaker 3: it wasn't. I mean, it wasn't easy to deal with
Speaker 3: that on top of all the other stuff too.
Speaker 1: So if they so they were seeking your employment records,
Speaker 1: if would your employment records show that you were at
Speaker 1: work in all of April two thousand and one or
Speaker 1: is there any chance that you took Basically it would
Speaker 1: back up your story, like, is there any chance you
Speaker 1: took time off around the time that all this happened,
Speaker 1: which would have been like mid April two thousand and one.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't even know if it correlated with that or not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if they asked for your work records,
Speaker 1: would you be willing to grant them access to your
Speaker 1: work records?
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have had I probably wouldn't have. They would
Speaker 3: probably have the subpoenaform. I don't know. Yeah, And I
Speaker 3: don't know how they got my work records or they
Speaker 3: that they had them.
Speaker 1: I don't think that they actually got access to it.
Speaker 1: I think that they sought them, and I don't think
Speaker 1: that gave it to them. But I'm saying that if
Speaker 1: they were to ask you if somebody asked you today,
Speaker 1: if they asked for like, if they had your permission
Speaker 1: to obtain your work records from April two thousand and one,
Speaker 1: would they.
Speaker 3: Would I don't know what I would do on that
Speaker 3: that I want to think I'd probably want to talk to,
Speaker 3: you know, professional for some advice on how to handle that,
Speaker 3: because like this, it just goes way beyond helping in
Speaker 3: AH in a case like that, as opposed to feeling
Speaker 3: like now I am being looked at it for some reason.
Speaker 1: If your if your work records from April two thousand
Speaker 1: and one didn't show anything suspicious, why would you be
Speaker 1: concerned about them obtaining your work records?
Speaker 3: That's an interesting question, But I, like I just said,
Speaker 3: it turns it as being why would they want them
Speaker 3: if they're not just wanting my help? Yeah, if they'm
Speaker 3: trying to look at something that I did in that
Speaker 3: whole thing, and I have to prove myself. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: I know that I had nothing to do with it,
Speaker 3: but that's a whole different animal. Yeah, And that's where
Speaker 3: I think that if it goes there, I would probably
Speaker 3: have to get an attorney. And the same with the
Speaker 3: lie detector test.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like if you did it it would
Speaker 1: just basically help the because obviously they're suspicious. I think
Speaker 1: they're suspicious that somehow they're suspicious of people who possibly
Speaker 1: assisted but were not directly involved with Robert Fisher. And
Speaker 1: I know that they were suspicious of you obviously, that's
Speaker 1: why they spoke to you. So I think what I
Speaker 1: would say is I know on their end like they
Speaker 1: care about finding him.
Speaker 3: They don't. If I had the information, yeah, I would
Speaker 3: give it to him. He'll get the guy. I mean,
Speaker 3: I don't have any information. I don't know him. I
Speaker 3: wishould do it. I wish I could help, But to
Speaker 3: go through all that other stuff, all that does is
Speaker 3: put expense on me and angst on me, and for
Speaker 3: what Yeah? Yeah, So.
Speaker 1: In April two thousand and one, do you so, Paul,
Speaker 1: We've asked like it you remember when the event occurred,
Speaker 1: but do you remember that day? Were you at work
Speaker 1: that day? April tenth?
Speaker 3: I couldn't tell you where I was that day?
Speaker 1: Do you remember the aftermath of it? Like did you
Speaker 1: go to the church, do you go to any of
Speaker 1: the memorial stuff where you involved in anything like that?
Speaker 1: Do you remember ever meeting Mary Fisher or the kids.
Speaker 3: I think I remember meeting her outside in the breezeway
Speaker 3: when the kids were going in and out of from
Speaker 3: Sunday school to church and whatnot, and that would be it.
Speaker 1: So, but when this happened, you told them that you
Speaker 1: did not recognize the name Robert Fisher. Like, even like
Speaker 1: sculls Sill is a very peaceful, calm suburb, how did
Speaker 1: you not recognize saying Robert Fisher?
Speaker 3: Because I live in scott Steal and I only went
Speaker 3: to the church and he attended the church when there
Speaker 3: were five hundred people that went there. Yeah, So to
Speaker 3: throw out a name and like I don't know who that.
Speaker 1: Is, yeah, that's fair. So in two thousand and one,
Speaker 1: do you mind me asking in April two thousand and
Speaker 1: one what vehicle you were driving?
Speaker 3: So we had a minivan. I think I had a
Speaker 3: I had four truck. That's right, my X had the minivan.
Speaker 3: I had a truck.
Speaker 1: What color was the truck?
Speaker 3: It's like a teal. I believe I think that was
Speaker 3: the one that I had.
Speaker 1: Did you were you? Have you ever been up to
Speaker 1: the area around young where they found the fore Runner.
Speaker 3: I've been in that area when I had camped with
Speaker 3: my well, my kids think. I don't know the exact
Speaker 3: area though, but I've been on.
Speaker 1: That up in the like off Young Highway, Like it's
Speaker 1: north just north Intotween when you come off of what
Speaker 1: is it to sixty from Pacin and then down to Young.
Speaker 3: It's in between that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, area, it's a very common camping area. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: of course. And I mean it's the main road going
Speaker 1: down through Young. But what was what was your reaction
Speaker 1: when they showed up? I mean you must have been.
Speaker 1: Were you confused?
Speaker 3: Why?
Speaker 1: Like why are these why are these guys showing up
Speaker 1: at my work?
Speaker 3: Before? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 3: It was very disturbing and embarrassing, like, Okay, why why
Speaker 3: am I being looked at? And I've got to I've
Speaker 3: got a meaning and i am the one in charge,
Speaker 3: and now I've got FBI with badges pulling me aside
Speaker 3: to talk to me.
Speaker 1: Do you feel were you concerned about like how that
Speaker 1: may appear to your.
Speaker 3: Coworkers or is that.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like they did that on purpose showing
Speaker 1: up at your job.
Speaker 3: I don't know how they do their investigations. I mean
Speaker 3: kind of like you guys show them up here. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean, how do I feel that you're showing up
Speaker 3: at my house? Yeah, I don't like it because I
Speaker 3: have nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1: So to be clear, if they asked today either for
Speaker 1: your work workers at April two thousand one or for
Speaker 1: you to take.
Speaker 3: A while, okay, so, and you are with.
Speaker 1: So, I'm independent, but we're working on an audio project
Speaker 1: for iHeart.
Speaker 3: I don't have anything to do with that. Can I
Speaker 3: Can I ask you one more question my patience has
Speaker 3: done with yes.
Speaker 1: So obviously what they suspected is that you in some
Speaker 1: way assisted Barbaria Fisher after or daring what happened? Is
Speaker 1: that true or false?
Speaker 3: Absolutely not? And if you keep asking me this, I'm
Speaker 3: going to call the police and have you removed from
Speaker 3: my property. So please leave.
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you appreciate it. Thanks Paul, and I hustle
Speaker 1: back to the car. The other Paul Gemper line, our
Speaker 1: researcher is today our getaway driver. We speed away.
Speaker 6: Within like the first two minutes. His body he almost
Speaker 6: like got kind of emotional red, like his eyes started
Speaker 6: to get red as if he almost had tears.
Speaker 1: Coming into his office. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I noticed that too.
Speaker 6: And he mentioned how when you brought up the fissure
Speaker 6: and all this case and all this stuff, how it
Speaker 6: seemed to tie in at this That was also the
Speaker 6: same time when him and his wife got divorced, and
Speaker 6: so part of me was like, oh, that's he's getting
Speaker 6: emotional because like there's bad blood between him and his
Speaker 6: ex wife and he is dredging that up, is immediately
Speaker 6: making him kind of emotional. As one possible explanation, I.
Speaker 1: Don't so he's seen very nervous. He almost looked like
Speaker 1: he was shaking. His face looked like flushbread it's been
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's I think it's very different to
Speaker 1: ask about somebody's divorce, which is an uncomfortable, sad thing.
Speaker 1: But twenty five years later versus showing up asking about
Speaker 1: Robert Fisher, he was definitely off. I mean you could tell,
Speaker 1: and at some points I felt like he was giving
Speaker 1: me like a death glare. But I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: blame him, but.
Speaker 6: I mean again just thinking. Also, yeah, the flip side
Speaker 6: is like, I don't know, the things you read about
Speaker 6: when people get people who are guilty get confronted about stuff,
Speaker 6: they often have a tendency to just keep talking.
Speaker 1: That's what I was thinking too, That's what I was thinking.
Speaker 1: It's like I would like he kept speaking. He looked nervous,
Speaker 1: he was a little shaky. I was shaky. So I
Speaker 1: was trying to think and observe and look at my questions.
Speaker 1: And he asked for my a business card, so I
Speaker 1: had to pull my wallet out, and you know, now
Speaker 1: I'm like, dear lord, don't find my address. Like, yes,
Speaker 1: he was very again, it's under I don't know. He
Speaker 1: seemed off to me, like he was obviously shaken that
Speaker 1: we showed up. And I don't blame him for being shaken,
Speaker 1: but you know, I mean, I've just like the cops.
Speaker 1: I've spoken to a ton of people. The cops spoke
Speaker 1: to a ton of people, and you know, he was
Speaker 1: he was off. I wonder if you observed, because I
Speaker 1: was looking at him obviously, but my mind was going
Speaker 1: like one hundred miles an hour, and I wonder generally,
Speaker 1: like physically, see what was interesting to me is he declined?
Speaker 1: I didn't he actually see? He started telling me things
Speaker 1: I didn't know, right, so like I didn't know. That's
Speaker 1: why you kind of go in and not bluff, but
Speaker 1: you just don't necessarily say, well, this is what I know.
Speaker 3: What didn't you know that?
Speaker 1: He said, I didn't know that he went down and
Speaker 1: that they asked him to take a lie detective test,
Speaker 1: and he said, no, I didn't know that. Then we
Speaker 1: asked him again if he would, basically, why did you
Speaker 1: not take one? And I didn't feel like he had
Speaker 1: a good answer for that, And we asked about the
Speaker 1: employment record, saying to me was a little bit more
Speaker 1: of a red flag because I understand why somebody would
Speaker 1: be nervous about a lie detector tests. I mean, they
Speaker 1: can be they're valuable sometimes, but the employment records is
Speaker 1: bizarre to me. Because I asked him, you know, I'll
Speaker 1: have to listen, but I asked him flat out, if
Speaker 1: somebody asked you today, if would you give them permission
Speaker 1: to access your employment records from April two thousand and one?
Speaker 1: Would that verify that you know, you didn't take any
Speaker 1: time off from work? And then he said that he
Speaker 1: wouldn't more or less because he would, am I remembering
Speaker 1: this correctly? More or less because you know, why should
Speaker 1: he because he shouldn't have to prove anything, or at
Speaker 1: that point he would involve he said, I think a
Speaker 1: professional obviously an attorney so I just find that kind
Speaker 1: of weird. I mean, if I I understand nervousness about
Speaker 1: a lie detective test, though, you know, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people would just do it to clear themselves
Speaker 1: of any involvement in a multiple murder. But the employment
Speaker 1: records was weirder to me. I think because it's an
Speaker 1: employment record saying whether or not you're at work. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's not that suspicious. So it's more a lot of
Speaker 1: times it's less about what you're asking you more to
Speaker 1: more about how they're responding to certain things.
Speaker 6: I think, Well, especially because unprompted on that request that query,
Speaker 6: he was like, I'd probably have to hire an attorney,
Speaker 6: or I'd want to hire an attorney.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was like, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1: So I just thought, like if if your employment records,
Speaker 1: like even if you took time off in April doesn't
Speaker 1: prove anything. So I just don't know why you get
Speaker 1: so nervous somebody asking about your employment records. It's to me,
Speaker 1: it's more of a like you know that there's something
Speaker 1: there or other. I don't know. I mean, I'm just
Speaker 1: reading it in my interpretation of it. But he was
Speaker 1: definitely shaken and he started to look angry at the end. Oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: he looked pissed, so I I to see. As soon
Speaker 1: as he asked us to leave, we left. So yeah,
Speaker 1: we didn't stay, but he didn't ask us to leave.
Speaker 1: He his face looked red to me. He looked almost
Speaker 1: a little shaky to me.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And eyes looked like they're almost like water like,
Speaker 6: like on the verge of becoming emotional.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the reaction Part two.
Speaker 1: The Fisher murders traumatized hundreds of people. Let's zoom in
Speaker 1: and focus on one of them, a ten year old boy,
Speaker 1: Bobby Fisher's friend brock Anderson, whose mom Beth knew Bobby's
Speaker 1: mom Mary. Beth was the last person to see Mary
Speaker 1: and Bobby alive, right before the murders. How did this
Speaker 1: affect your son, who was very young?
Speaker 7: Horribly? Horribly? Yeah, Well, he was at school and I
Speaker 7: went and picked him up because I was scared to
Speaker 7: death that he was going to find out from someone else,
Speaker 7: And so we told him what had happened, and we
Speaker 7: just said that there had been an accident at the
Speaker 7: house and that you know, they were We just told him,
Speaker 7: we said, they're with Jesus now, you know, how do you,
Speaker 7: how do you explain this to a ten year old.
Speaker 1: The next day, Beth and Brock visited the Fisher's cul
Speaker 1: de sac.
Speaker 7: He cried, it was everybody was just a mess. So
Speaker 7: he did take a little animal, stuffed animal that he
Speaker 7: could leave for Bobby. And so he asked one of
Speaker 7: the I don't know if it was a firefighter or
Speaker 7: policeman or whoever was there, if he would be allowed
Speaker 7: to take one of the pine cones out of the yard.
Speaker 7: And they said, yes, that's fine, that's fine, and he said, well,
Speaker 7: Bobby was my buddy and I want a pine cone
Speaker 7: from his house. And so they let him take pine
Speaker 7: cone and he still has it to this day. So
Speaker 7: we didn't stay very long and just left and just
Speaker 7: talked about it. You know, what are you feeling, what
Speaker 7: are your emotions? How do you feel about all this?
Speaker 7: And how can we best help you? I mean, this
Speaker 7: poor kid, he had nightmares like every night. He was
Speaker 7: so scared Robert he could kill Bobby. Is he going
Speaker 7: to come after all Bobby's friends? And I remember him saying,
Speaker 7: you know, I was just at their house and Robert
Speaker 7: had been to our house before. So he said, Robert,
Speaker 7: mister Robert knows where we live. Is he going to
Speaker 7: come after everybody and start killing all of us. It
Speaker 7: was just the worst. We just said, there's evil in
Speaker 7: this world and there are people that do bad things.
Speaker 7: And you know, he would say, well, well why, mister Robert.
Speaker 7: You know, we don't know. We wish we had all
Speaker 7: the answers, not just for you, but for us too.
Speaker 7: And Brock was he was a wise kid, and I
Speaker 7: think he understood the fact that he lost his buddy.
Speaker 7: But I lost a friend too, and so I just
Speaker 7: told him we will get through this. It won't be easy,
Speaker 7: and it's okay for you to cry. It's okay for
Speaker 7: you to yell or scream or throw something or do
Speaker 7: whatever you have to do to deal with the pain
Speaker 7: that you're feeling.
Speaker 8: I do remember the last time I saw Bobby. He
Speaker 8: and I were in the color guard for Ajana, and
Speaker 8: you know, we had this we would do our drills.
Speaker 8: Maybe we were doing drills that night, and we'd have
Speaker 8: this term dress right dress, which I guess he would
Speaker 8: shift to the right, and his humor, he just yelled out,
Speaker 8: dress right undress.
Speaker 3: And then we just started laughing and he drove away.
Speaker 8: It was just like, okay, that was like my last
Speaker 8: interaction with him was just joy and laughter.
Speaker 1: Brock was at school when Bobby's house blew up.
Speaker 8: I think I got out like two forty five that day.
Speaker 8: I just remember my parents picking me up. I don't
Speaker 8: know how I found out they were, but they were there.
Speaker 8: We had a red Chrysler le baron. I saw the
Speaker 8: le Baron, I saw both of my parents. I was like, okay,
Speaker 8: this was really weird because my dad would typically work,
Speaker 8: you know till six or seven, and so that to
Speaker 8: me it was when the unusualness started. But I was
Speaker 8: more excited of like, oh cool, guys are picking me
Speaker 8: up and.
Speaker 3: If to take the bus. So went home. My brothers
Speaker 3: were there.
Speaker 8: My mom let my middle brother and I Grant play
Speaker 8: video games, which was unusual for right after school during
Speaker 8: a school week.
Speaker 3: But they're like, yeah, it's fine.
Speaker 8: My parents rupsters in their room door closed to which
Speaker 8: always meant like okay, sometimes they just need a moment whatever.
Speaker 3: But they were there for it seemed like.
Speaker 8: An hour at least, which was also just kind of
Speaker 8: like all right, this is a little weird, Like I
Speaker 8: don't know, Usually it means like some sort of big
Speaker 8: news is following that. So both came down. They brought
Speaker 8: my oldest brother down and gathered us. Hey turn that off. Okay,
Speaker 8: so again it's like family meeting. Just everything just seemed
Speaker 8: kind of like, all right, well, something really big is
Speaker 8: going on. I was airing on the side of oh yeah,
Speaker 8: we're going to Disneyland or something like that, you know,
Speaker 8: something that a ten year old might suspect. But man,
Speaker 8: never in my wildest dreams would I have expected that
Speaker 8: sort of news. I mean, my dad, you know, very
Speaker 8: very stoic, very just a quiet confident man, you know,
Speaker 8: really struggled to say, you know, Mary, Brittany and Bobby
Speaker 8: have gone to be with Jesus today, just choked up
Speaker 8: and him, you know, showing that emotion.
Speaker 3: It was just like whoa.
Speaker 8: I mean, it just immediately is in shock, very much denial,
Speaker 8: Like no, it was was that even mean, you know,
Speaker 8: it just it took it felt like forever for it
Speaker 8: to really even remotely start to sink in.
Speaker 1: On April eleventh, two thousand and one, Brock visited what
Speaker 1: was left of twenty two twenty three North seventy fourth Place.
Speaker 3: I remember just the house was still smoldering.
Speaker 1: Grieving loved one circled rubble, leaving mementos and putting up flyers,
Speaker 1: trying to make sense of tragedy. So also six months later,
Speaker 1: obviously nine to eleven happened. That's kind of a double
Speaker 1: punch for you at a really important moment of development,
Speaker 1: and I imagine for your sense of safety and how
Speaker 1: you process the world. To have something happen so personal
Speaker 1: in April and then global, but it still extremely upsetting
Speaker 1: in September must have had a very serious impact on
Speaker 1: you for the rest of your life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, two thousand and one was a healthy year. I was.
Speaker 8: I've even talked about this with a couple close friends
Speaker 8: of mine, Ryan and Ricky, that you know, I experienced
Speaker 8: trauma from a very close perspective to suddenly a nationwide, worldwide.
Speaker 3: Thing in a matter of months, And just looking.
Speaker 8: Back on that now, it's like, oh my gosh, Like yeah,
Speaker 8: I mean I think back to my ten eleven year
Speaker 8: old self and like, yeah, my perspective of people the
Speaker 8: world was very shattered, you know where I think it
Speaker 8: was just more important for me to just find safety
Speaker 8: however I could, and a lot of that was just
Speaker 8: through isolation, I remember. Yeah, for a few years really
Speaker 8: being like having an immense fear of dark. I haven't
Speaker 8: really thought about it much in terms of connecting it
Speaker 8: to oh it is Robert, But I remember having those
Speaker 8: thoughts as a kid of like, yeah, I think talking
Speaker 8: to my mom or dad being like, he's not going
Speaker 8: to come after us, right, and they're like, no, I
Speaker 8: really don't think so. And I think that's where even
Speaker 8: to this day, like my wife can attest to it,
Speaker 8: like I.
Speaker 3: Just like to make sure things are locked up at home.
Speaker 1: Can you talk to me about how you, as an adult,
Speaker 1: have realized ways that you've turned out as a human being, personality, traits,
Speaker 1: your mental health, things that you've been through. Obviously there
Speaker 1: are many causes and from genetics to a million other
Speaker 1: things in your life. It's not all Robert Fisher. But
Speaker 1: how have you connected the dots to understand the parts
Speaker 1: of you that were deeply affected in a way that
Speaker 1: you probably didn't realize until you were older and an adult.
Speaker 8: Yeah, how difficult relationships were and still kind of ore
Speaker 8: for me, you know. I mean that's I look back on,
Speaker 8: you know, when I first went to therapy. I think
Speaker 8: that was when it started to sink in for me.
Speaker 8: Of like, oh, like I was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was.
Speaker 8: I was generally a shy kid, you know, growing up,
Speaker 8: and I was just just more of my demeanor who
Speaker 8: I was.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 8: I have my family's background or roots or Midwest and
Speaker 8: East Coast, but I think I got more of the
Speaker 8: Midwest kind of just quiet and to myself, but more
Speaker 8: of a physical presence kind of person. So I think
Speaker 8: just looking back on, yeah, my friendship with Bobby and.
Speaker 3: Just how that can be severed so quickly.
Speaker 8: I mean that just from that time on, you know,
Speaker 8: into middle school and high school, like I had friends,
Speaker 8: but I just I was very just to myself. That
Speaker 8: was just kind of what I referred. But deep down though,
Speaker 8: there was that longing, like this tension within me of like, man,
Speaker 8: I just like I want friends, I want to have connection.
Speaker 8: I had mentioned in a different interview of feeling suicidal
Speaker 8: at times, and I think I look back on that now,
Speaker 8: it's like, yeah, I was so alone, you know, and
Speaker 8: that was what I felt like was protective for me.
Speaker 8: But also looking at as like my human interaction was
Speaker 8: very limited. I had my family, and honestly, like I
Speaker 8: think they kept me going.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I imagine for you as a kid who was. It
Speaker 1: sounds like you were more introverted, and so was I.
Speaker 1: The friends that you do have are very valuable to you,
Speaker 1: and you would have grown up alongside Bobby. You guys
Speaker 1: would probably still be friends today. I imagine it was
Speaker 1: difficult to go through graduation, to go through all the
Speaker 1: different little milestones of life, and to know that this
Speaker 1: friend you had was taken from you. It's not exactly
Speaker 1: the same, but when I was twenty eight, my oldest
Speaker 1: friend was we met when we were nine. In twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: he passed from cancer and was a one in a
Speaker 1: literally a one in one million cancer.
Speaker 3: Right, It's like, what are.
Speaker 1: The what are the literally one in one million is
Speaker 1: such an ex It's a called uing sarcoma is a
Speaker 1: very rare.
Speaker 3: But we right after we were born one day apart.
Speaker 1: We grew up two houses down from each other, and
Speaker 1: it's I got to live to be into my late
Speaker 1: twenties with him as my literally literally my oldest friend
Speaker 1: and the only friend that I've lost like that happened
Speaker 1: to be somebody so close and somebody that I knew
Speaker 1: since I was nine years old. Wow, sorry about that last,
Speaker 1: but it's always there with you and I had another
Speaker 1: eighteen years of memories that you didn't get with your friend.
Speaker 1: How do you balance keeping the memories alive without letting
Speaker 1: them consume you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 8: Certainly for me when I started to go to therapy,
Speaker 8: I mean that was like really having a space to
Speaker 8: just talk about it, you know, talk about what happened,
Speaker 8: and yeah, yeah, I have a trained professional help me
Speaker 8: through the different issues the trauma itself. But I think
Speaker 8: that having so I have these you know, two really
Speaker 8: close friends, Ryan and Ricky, like that those guys have
Speaker 8: been so redeeming for me and relationships how I view
Speaker 8: friendship now. They've brought a lot of healing for me,
Speaker 8: and I think just really leaning into that and more
Speaker 8: of the present. And it's hard to describe, I guess,
Speaker 8: the balancing act, but I think for me, I had to.
Speaker 8: I had to face the things that were really uncomfortable
Speaker 8: for me through therapy, and I think a part of
Speaker 8: that was a decision to not just get so consumed
Speaker 8: by this terrible thing happened. Where's Robert. It's Robert, Robert,
Speaker 8: you know. I think just getting so fixated on that
Speaker 8: left me really stuck. So I think I had to
Speaker 8: look at it and say, Okay, well, I may never
Speaker 8: see justice for Robert, you know, in the sense of
Speaker 8: like apprehension and put on.
Speaker 3: Trial and put to or whatever. You know.
Speaker 8: I had to accept I may never see that in
Speaker 8: my life, and for me, like, there has to be
Speaker 8: a level of acceptance and okayness with that. And I
Speaker 8: think that was where I started to see my life
Speaker 8: as my life apart from this tragedy.
Speaker 1: On April tenth, twenty sixteen, the fifteenth anniversary of the murders,
Speaker 1: Brock proposed to his girlfriend.
Speaker 8: I wanted to use that for as a symbolism of okay,
Speaker 8: and that's not the end of the story here, like
Speaker 8: new life happens and starts on this day.
Speaker 7: It was a beautiful proposal. We had a party for
Speaker 7: them at the house and he told everybody that was there.
Speaker 7: You know, they thanked everybody for coming, but he said,
Speaker 7: I just have to share with you guys that he said,
Speaker 7: this day is very meaningful to me. One side is hard,
Speaker 7: and a lot of people that were there, not everybody,
Speaker 7: but several people knew what had happened with the Fishers,
Speaker 7: but maybe they didn't connect that. Oh gosh, today is
Speaker 7: April tenth. This is an anniversary day. So he told everybody,
Speaker 7: he said, you know, April tenth has always been a
Speaker 7: rough day for me and a negative day. It brings
Speaker 7: back negative memories. So he said, I purposely chose and
Speaker 7: he told them why. He said, I purposely chose this
Speaker 7: day because I want to change that in my head.
Speaker 7: I want this to become a day of celebration. And
Speaker 7: our daughter in law is She's just amazing and she
Speaker 7: I think was very influential in being able to help
Speaker 7: Brock kind of find his way. So he went back
Speaker 7: to school, graduated from ASU, and then decided he wants
Speaker 7: to be a therapist. So that's what he did. He
Speaker 7: got his master's so he is now a family and
Speaker 7: marriage therapist and I just I hang onto that. It's
Speaker 7: like you go, kid. I mean because from that day
Speaker 7: in two thousand and one to where he is now
Speaker 7: is just And when he first told us he wanted
Speaker 7: to pursue therapy as a career, I said, do you
Speaker 7: have any idea what kind? And he said, right now,
Speaker 7: I'm thinking trauma. Like okay, He's like, you know, after
Speaker 7: what I went through and losing my friend at ten
Speaker 7: years old and trying to deal with all the garbage
Speaker 7: that comes with that through the years. It was a
Speaker 7: long process for him. He got counseling as an adult,
Speaker 7: you know, to deal with it. I didn't realize that
Speaker 7: he was still needing counseling. It's like, gosh, this is
Speaker 7: still hanging heavy on me. So he got help that
Speaker 7: he needed and now here he is helping others. So
Speaker 7: very proud of that. I think that's a positive thing
Speaker 7: that he's been able to do, taking something so bad
Speaker 7: and turning it into a positive.
Speaker 8: This journey has really been from the Fisher story my
Speaker 8: own healing and I think also finding a renewed sense
Speaker 8: of okay, like back to the closure thing, what does
Speaker 8: my life look like now? And that comes back to
Speaker 8: this place of justice. People think of justice sure in
Speaker 8: some ways of you know, apprehension the whole thing. For me,
Speaker 8: I started to view justice.
Speaker 3: And well, what would Mary and Brittany and Bobby want.
Speaker 3: You know, they were people, they were humans.
Speaker 8: Bobby I think he loved his dad. You know, he
Speaker 8: has a kid, Brittany, same thing Mary, you know, yeah,
Speaker 8: his wife going through a lot and a lot of
Speaker 8: turmoil there. But what would they want?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 8: And that I really wrestled with that the more recent
Speaker 8: years with my friends and thinking through like I think
Speaker 8: justice would be helping people that hurt, whether it's the
Speaker 8: Robert Fishers of the world or the victims these the people,
Speaker 8: the survivors of this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting. I was about to ask you that
Speaker 1: the previous interview you did, I've never heard anybody empathize
Speaker 1: with the Robert Fishers of the world. Obviously you're not
Speaker 1: empathizing with the action, sure, but to prevent things like
Speaker 1: this from happening, people like that need help too. I
Speaker 1: thought that was a fascinating perspective, and it's something that
Speaker 1: most people just don't voice. They don't They either don't
Speaker 1: think it or they don't want to voice it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you're not. Part of it is, Yes, you want to
Speaker 1: help people like that obviously who have demons, but part
Speaker 1: of it is also to protect everybody else, right.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 1: On April tenth, twenty twenty, Good Friday, the nineteenth anniversary
Speaker 1: of the murders, as the COVID pandemic raged, Brock drove
Speaker 1: to Young Arizona with his friends Ryan and Ricky. He
Speaker 1: wanted to reminisce, pray, make peace, They started in Scottsdale
Speaker 1: at the cemetery where Mary, Brittany and Bobby are interred,
Speaker 1: went to the Fisher's cul de Sac, then the Chase Bank,
Speaker 1: where Robert took out two hundred and eighty dollars. The
Speaker 1: night of April ninth, two thousand and one, they withdrew
Speaker 1: two hundred and eighty dollars, then drove to sup By
Speaker 1: Middle School, Scottsdale Baptist Church, and finally young Ricky led
Speaker 1: them in communion. They enjoyed dinner. The next day they
Speaker 1: started looking for the fore Runner spot. In an email,
Speaker 1: Brock said, quote on the drive, I experienced a panic
Speaker 1: attack and felt the weight of encountering the place literally
Speaker 1: and metaphorically. That represented what I knew then to be
Speaker 1: the finality of the Fisher's story. We set out to
Speaker 1: go cave searching and didn't find a single one. Instead,
Speaker 1: we traversed down into a valley, almost got lost in
Speaker 1: the forest. Ricky, a marine veteran, would beg to differ
Speaker 1: and experienced all four seasons of weather fog, rain, snow, sunshine, cold,
Speaker 1: t warm, and back. Brock sat on a log, wrote
Speaker 1: a letter addressed it to Robert Fisher drove back to
Speaker 1: Scottsdale and on Easter set it down at the cemetery,
Speaker 1: got up and left.
Speaker 8: April eleventh, twenty twenty Robert Fisher, we may never find
Speaker 8: you here on this earth. There is a chance you
Speaker 8: might have died years ago, and you could also still
Speaker 8: be alive, living a different life. God knows where you are,
Speaker 8: and I submit to that. Anger no longer carries any
Speaker 8: power over me. I have been set free. It is
Speaker 8: only through the love, grace and redemption of Jesus that
Speaker 8: I forgive you for what you have done to your family.
Speaker 8: I forgive you, Robert. I hope that confession and repentance
Speaker 8: find you, and that the truth sets you free from
Speaker 8: what you have done. In the name of our Lord
Speaker 8: and Savior, Jesus, you are forgiven, and in the name
Speaker 8: of Jesus, I commit myself to loving and helping the
Speaker 8: broken and hurting. I would even help you if I
Speaker 8: ever got the chance.
Speaker 3: Brock.
Speaker 1: If you like this show, please download our first two seasons,
Speaker 1: Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven. For updates,
Speaker 1: visit me on thirty three dot com or follow me
Speaker 1: on Twitter at John Waalzac j O n W A L. Czak.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2: The Reaction Part three.
Speaker 1: To close out this season, I have one more interview
Speaker 1: for you, a phone call I almost didn't make because
Speaker 1: at some point I have to stop investigating and start
Speaker 1: writing right wrong. I'll never stop investigating, and this is why,
Speaker 1: because calls that seem unimportant, mundane even are often critical.
Speaker 4: Hello.
Speaker 9: This is Lynn.
Speaker 1: Lynn Mashorn is a retired nurse. She worked with Robert
Speaker 1: Fisher from the late eighties to the late nineties at
Speaker 1: Scott Still Memorial Hospital.
Speaker 9: I kind of just knew him the whole time I
Speaker 9: worked there. I think he was originally in respiratory and
Speaker 9: went to see thee monitoring.
Speaker 1: Lynn was the ICU charged nurse leading a team of
Speaker 1: medical professionals at a Level one trauma center, including Robert
Speaker 1: Fisher when he worked the night shift. She remembers Robert
Speaker 1: as respectful and kind a quote really great guy.
Speaker 9: We used to do. He was kind of an exercise junkie,
Speaker 9: so we used to on slow nights, we used to
Speaker 9: do the stairs. We'd get in the stairwell and run
Speaker 9: up and down the stairs, just the pastime, you know.
Speaker 9: He used to brag about how and I never knew
Speaker 9: whether it was true or not. How he had trained
Speaker 9: to be a Navy seal, and so he had all
Speaker 9: these mad survival skills and all this great fitness and stuff.
Speaker 9: And you know, looking at him, you'd say, yeah, I
Speaker 9: could see that, because it was clear that he worked.
Speaker 4: Out a lot.
Speaker 1: T Lynn Robert was normal, bland, even vanilla. Nothing stands
Speaker 1: out with one exception.
Speaker 9: He worked in surgery with my husband.
Speaker 1: Richard Mashorn, a heart surgeon.
Speaker 9: And he knew that my husband had been a had
Speaker 9: originally studied to be a Lutheran minister before he became
Speaker 9: a surgeon, and so he my husband commented to me
Speaker 9: that one day he was talking to him and he said, so,
Speaker 9: doctor Mashorn, and I'm paraphrasing this because I can't exactly
Speaker 9: remember how he phrased the question, but it struck my
Speaker 9: husband as odd, something about is killing someone always a
Speaker 9: sin in the eyes of God? And you know, this
Speaker 9: was prior to anything happening, So my husband only recalled
Speaker 9: it after the incident because then it struck him as weird.
Speaker 9: And then another thing I remember is that, and I'm
Speaker 9: going to say this was within a year of the incident,
Speaker 9: I was hiking camelback mountains from the Echo Canyon side,
Speaker 9: which is the east side, and I was coming down
Speaker 9: and he was coming up. Now this was after he
Speaker 9: was supposedly gone and missing, but he was hiking up
Speaker 9: and he was alone, and as soon as we locked eyes,
Speaker 9: he turned around and ran, not down the trail, but
Speaker 9: ran cross country down hill. And so this was before.
Speaker 9: I mean, I didn't have a cell phone or anything.
Speaker 9: So I think I called the police when I got home.
Speaker 9: But yeah, I'm sure there's no record of that, and
Speaker 9: it was too late, you know, he was long gone.
Speaker 9: I'm sure this. Yeah, it was after. It was probably
Speaker 9: within a year year and a half after, so he
Speaker 9: was back in the valley at some point.
Speaker 4: How confident are you that it was him?
Speaker 9: We locked eyes and he bolted. So we worked together
Speaker 9: long enough to know each other.
Speaker 4: Do you remember what time of year it was? No?
Speaker 4: So and then so? Were you by yourself or were
Speaker 4: you with anyone at the time?
Speaker 9: Well? I was with my husband.
Speaker 4: Does he remember this as well?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: So you said you called the police. Do you remember
Speaker 4: did you call Scot Sale or did you call it
Speaker 4: different police department?
Speaker 9: I have no recollection of who I called or if
Speaker 9: I really did I can't remember for sure.
Speaker 4: If you didn't, do you know why you would not
Speaker 4: have called.
Speaker 9: There might have been a tip line or something that
Speaker 9: I reported to. I'm just not sure. Sorry, long time ago.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no worries. So you can you tell me? Do
Speaker 4: you mind telling me the whole story again, just from
Speaker 4: the beginning, kind of you kind of caught me off guard.
Speaker 9: My husband I were hiking Camelback Mountain on the east
Speaker 9: side and we were coming down. I was ahead of
Speaker 9: my husband and Bob Fisher was coming up and he
Speaker 9: saw me, and I saw him, and he turned around
Speaker 9: and bolted downhill, cross country, downhill, not on the trail,
Speaker 9: and ran very fast. He's a great athlete and on
Speaker 9: a scale.
Speaker 4: And how sure you that it was I was.
Speaker 9: I'm ninety five percent sure it was him.
Speaker 4: And so I mean you work with him for over
Speaker 4: a decade, right, yeah, I did. So you saw him
Speaker 4: a lot. I mean, it's not like you saw him
Speaker 4: as some times. You were very familiar with what you
Speaker 4: looked like, right, do you so to your recollection, did
Speaker 4: you definitely phone that in or do you are you
Speaker 4: not sure if you called the type end I'm not sure.
Speaker 4: H Well, that is very interesting. Have you shared that
Speaker 4: with anybody in the years since?
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Have you?
Speaker 4: Have you been contacted or interviewed by law enforcement? Ever?
Speaker 9: No, That's why I'm not sure. If I called it in,
Speaker 9: to be honest, I might have gotten home and thought, well,
Speaker 9: it's too late now he's long gone. Sorry, I can't remember.
Speaker 4: No, no worries. M Do you remember what he was wearing?
Speaker 9: A ball cap and a T shirt and shorts. That's
Speaker 9: all I remember. Ah, he didn't have much hair, so
Speaker 9: he always wore a ball cap.
Speaker 4: And your your husband saw him? Did your husband also
Speaker 4: recognize him as Robert Fusher?
Speaker 9: He says he did?
Speaker 4: What did he possible for me to speak to your husband?
Speaker 4: At some point?
Speaker 9: It would not he's passed away.
Speaker 4: Oh man, I'm sorry. When did? When did he pass?
Speaker 4: April of us here, I'm sorry to hear that me too.
Speaker 1: Richard died only nine days before I got to Phoenix
Speaker 1: to report this story to recap. Lynn Mashorn and I
Speaker 1: see you. Nurse who worked with Robert Fisher for a decade,
Speaker 1: says she and her husband ran into Fisher while hiking
Speaker 1: Camelback Mountain in two thousand and two. Intriguing, But I've
Speaker 1: heard something like this a half dozen times, people who
Speaker 1: knew Fisher swearing they saw him. Law enforcement investigated those leads.
Speaker 1: It was never him. This is different. Why because of
Speaker 1: the man's reaction, There are only three options. One Lynn
Speaker 1: is lying. I don't think so. I believe her. She
Speaker 1: knew Fisher well and never sought media attention. Two Lynn
Speaker 1: saw someone who looked like Fisher but wasn't. This doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense. Why would he lock eyes with her panic
Speaker 1: and run down the side of a mountain so rapidly
Speaker 1: he didn't even take a trail unless three when actually
Speaker 1: saw Robert Fisher. This is what I believe, because again,
Speaker 1: of the man's reaction.
Speaker 9: I thought at the time it was awfully cavalier of
Speaker 9: him to show his face in public like that, even
Speaker 9: though you know chances are that you'd get recognized and
Speaker 9: something like that. It's pretty slim, but it happened.
Speaker 4: And I apologize to push on details. But do you
Speaker 4: you don't remember what time of year, what season or
Speaker 4: anything it was? I do not, Nope, And do you
Speaker 4: mind telling me one more time exactly where you came
Speaker 4: up and where this occurb.
Speaker 9: The east side of Camelback Mountain is called Echo Canyon. Side,
Speaker 9: So I was coming down and it was probably in
Speaker 9: the lower quarter he was coming up.
Speaker 4: And so when you ran into him the east side
Speaker 4: of Camelback Mountain, just to I just want to make
Speaker 4: sure I'm one hundred percent certain this was after the
Speaker 4: murders occurb. Yes, And so when you saw him, how
Speaker 4: long did it take for you to recognize him instantly?
Speaker 9: And I was assured it was him when he turned
Speaker 9: around and ran?
Speaker 4: How quickly did he run immediately as soon as we
Speaker 4: locked eyes? Has anybody ever interviewed you before, either media
Speaker 4: or law enforcement? No, this is the first time anybody
Speaker 4: has asked you about him.
Speaker 7: Yep.
Speaker 4: Does that surprise you.
Speaker 9: Yes, because you think that you'd think that the police
Speaker 9: would have interviewed everyone who worked with him, and clearly
Speaker 9: they did not, because none of my friends have been
Speaker 9: interviewed unless there's somebody you spoke to, But none of
Speaker 9: the people who I know who've worked with him have
Speaker 9: ever been contacted by the police.
Speaker 4: When you saw him on Camelback Mountain, how long did
Speaker 4: you lock eyes with him? Momentarily and then he literally
Speaker 4: turned and ran. Yes, and he ran down the mountain.
Speaker 9: Yeah, not on the trail, though he ran cross country,
Speaker 9: down the mountain, down the hillside.
Speaker 4: How long after that were you able to see him
Speaker 4: before he vanished out of your high line?
Speaker 3: Hi?
Speaker 9: Fight a minute two, So you see him. I turned
Speaker 9: around and went back up to where my husband was
Speaker 9: to see if he had seen him, and he said, yeah,
Speaker 9: I thought that was him.
Speaker 4: So you were a little bit further down from your husband, yes,
Speaker 4: And you mentioned what he was wearing. Do you remember
Speaker 4: any other details? No? Did he have any equipment with him, like.
Speaker 9: A backpack, it's possible.
Speaker 4: Did he have a dog with him?
Speaker 9: No, he did not. There's no dogs allowed on that side, gotcha,
Speaker 9: there weren't. There weren't at the time.
Speaker 4: And how far from wherever you parked. How far of
Speaker 4: a hike had it been for you to get where
Speaker 4: you were?
Speaker 9: Quite a way? Well, like I said, we were coming down,
Speaker 9: so we had been up and were coming down, and
Speaker 9: we were probably three quarters of the way down, so
Speaker 9: it was another half mile back to the car at least.
Speaker 4: That's This is just fascinating to me because you know,
Speaker 4: there have been a million leads over the years, and
Speaker 4: including multiple co workers who thought they saw him. But
Speaker 4: it's very different if you'd think you see him any runs.
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, well.
Speaker 9: That was what you know, It's that momentary, Hey, I
Speaker 9: think you're you. And as soon as he turned and ran,
Speaker 9: I was like, then I was sure. And we were
Speaker 9: probably twenty feet apart, you.
Speaker 4: Know, so he was Was he coming up at that point?
Speaker 9: He was, Yeah, he was coming up. So it couldn't
Speaker 9: have been in It couldn't have been in the dead
Speaker 9: of summer because he would have been starting way too late.
Speaker 9: So it was probably in one of the shoulder seasons.
Speaker 4: That's and this is very fascinating to me. Well, hey,
Speaker 4: I really appreciate you speaking with me. This is this
Speaker 4: is why I reach out to everybody, because you never
Speaker 4: know what you're going to hear.
Speaker 1: And so this saga ends for now, but it also
Speaker 1: begins on Camelback Mountain. Before we go, let me say
Speaker 1: a few things Mary, Brittany, and Bobby I know, in
Speaker 1: some small way in this moment, I've been your voice.
Speaker 1: I hope I've done you justice. To law enforcement, I've
Speaker 1: dug up new information, please act on it. To everyone
Speaker 1: who spoke with us, I appreciate you. To our team,
Speaker 1: especially Paul Deckan, Ben Bowen, and Chris Brown, thank you
Speaker 1: for pouring your hearts into this show alongside me. To
Speaker 1: our audience, please go to Neon thirty three dot com
Speaker 1: share the wanted poster. Did Robert Fisher live past April
Speaker 1: two thousand and one? Yes, now let's find him when
Speaker 1: you come in a crime.
Speaker 9: Where Essie.
Speaker 1: That is out.
Speaker 3: There guns inside.
Speaker 8: If you begin to saw well, chat our.
Speaker 3: Film seriously, you can restless though.
Speaker 1: A landa all. You can reach us by phone at
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Speaker 1: Paul Ducan is our executive producer, Chris Brown is our
Speaker 1: supervising producer. Hannah Rose Snyder is our producer. Paul Gemberlin
Speaker 1: is our researcher, Ben Bolan is a consulting producer, and
Speaker 1: I'm your host and executive producer John Wallzac. Additional production
Speaker 1: support provided by Ben Hackett. Cover art by Pam Peacock.
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