WEBVTT - 16. An Answer 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:04.680 Did Robert Fisher live past April two thousand and one. Yes. 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:12.959 From iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three. I'm John Walzac and 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.239 this is Missing in Arizona, the story of a man 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.840 who disappeared after allegedly killing his wife and kids, blowing 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.480 up their suburban home, and escaping into the wilderness. Twenty 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.680 three years later, I'm hunting Robert Fisher and I need 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:35.239 your help. Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.760 and may not be suitable for all listeners. 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:44.680 Phoenix, Arizona, Friday, December the eleventh, two forty three PM. 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:49.720 Psycho nineteen sixty Hitchcock Panza camera across the Phoenix skyline 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.600 credits dissolve into a black and white horizon. An ancient 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.959 mountain looms in the distance, Camelback Mountain. 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:01.720 Phoenix, Arizona, two thousand and two. 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.520 And there on the mountain is Robert Fisher Alive? 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:08.840 The reaction Part one. 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:12.720 Let's circle back to episode fifteen. I told you about 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.600 a person of interest. Tony Police got a lead that 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.000 he helped Fisher before, during, and or after the murders. 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:23.120 They interviewed him. He was nervous, breathing, heavily. Do you 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.440 recognize the name Robert Fisher? No, he said, the guy 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:29.120 who killed his family went to your church, blew up 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.240 his house. Your wife knew his escaped, Your kids were 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:39.039 friends FBI's ten most Wanted list. Ah, yes him. This 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.440 is what gets me. The reaction Tony claiming not to 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.600 recognize the name Robert Fisher. Scottsdale Lieutenant Hugh Lockerby, and 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:50.560 former FBI agent Bob Caldwell, who interviewed him think he lied. 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.960 So do I, which begs the question why why lie? 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:57.920 Unless you have something to hide. I want to speak 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.160 to Tony in person, look him in the eyes. So in 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:03.760 late twenty twenty three, I show up at his house 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:14.919 unannounced with our producer Paul Deckett. The door swings open. 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:18.640 Tony's a big guy. I'm not. His wife and kids 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.280 accused him of abuse. He's a person of interest in 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.720 a triple homicide. I worry he'll fly into a rage, 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:28.880 punch me, choke me worse. I side I escape routes 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:34.520 and start asking questions. Tony speaks and shockingly doesn't stop 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:38.160 for nearly twenty minutes. We're gonna play the whole interview. 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:43.040 We disguised Tony's voice and bleeped personal details, but otherwise 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:47.000 it's unedited. Pay close attention not only to what he says, 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:54.880 but how he says it, his reaction. Hey, please, who 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.440 I'm My name is John Walzach. I'm an investigative journalist 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:01.480 in researching the case, and I was wondering if I 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:03.040 could speak to you about Robert Fisher. 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.200 You know, I I've talked to the FBI years ago 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:10.720 about that whole thing. I don't want I don't have 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:11.800 any information on that. 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:13.639 Is it okay? If I can I speak to. 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:15.040 Or I don't want to talk about it. I don't 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.959 want to deal with that anymore, is all right? Yeah? 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:20.960 Can I ask you any questions. 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:23.840 You can ask? I don't have any information. I don't know. 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:26.360 Did you know Robert Fisher at all? 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:28.320 He went to the same church and I went to 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.680 That's about it, and my kids played with his kids 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:36.640 in the church there. When I got divorced, my ex 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:39.560 wife said a bunch of stuff about me being friends 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:44.040 with him or whatever, And then so the FBI talked 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:45.400 to me about it, and I'm like, I don't know 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.560 the guy really, So it gives me anxiety just to 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.120 think about it. Because it's more about my ex wife 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:54.840 and the trauma that or the stuff that she stirred 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:56.960 up with at that was just vindictive. 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.360 So so you you didn't know him at all. 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:03.640 I couldn't pick him out if I saw him. I wouldn't. 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.920 I don't even remember ever talking to him any of that. 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.800 Okay, Yeah, I'm reaching out to basically everybody who I 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:14.720 possibly can, but your name came up, so I wanted 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:16.720 to reach out and speak to you. 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:19.560 You know, I appreciate it, But like I told the 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:24.599 FBI back then, I don't have any information. I don't 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:29.880 know other than what probably what I remember reading and 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:34.400 hearing what had happened, not necessarily knowing him or anything 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:35.280 prior to that. 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:40.240 Yeah, when they showed up, because I got the memo 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:42.839 that they wrote after they spoke with you, what was 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:44.839 your I mean, what do you think when they showed up? 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:46.520 Like why are they here asking me about that? 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:49.640 Yeah? Like it was very bizarre, just like you guys 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.240 coming up here, Like Okay, what do I have to 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:54.599 do with any of this? Yeah? 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.240 Did you have any idea why they were there or 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.720 did you assume somebody said something or I know the 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:05.160 f guy well, like like some that somebody told them something. 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.520 Or Yeah, that's what I felt like, like somebody said 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.240 said something. And as soon as I brought up my 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.880 ex wife, the FBA stopped. Yeah. 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:15.240 How long did they interview you? 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:19.320 For? Just a couple of weeks. I think we went, 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.760 they came that, they came to my work, and then 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.520 I went down and I met with them and talked 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:26.760 through a bunch of stuff. They wanted me to do 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:28.920 a light detective test and I'm like at that point, 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.000 I'm like, I'm done. I don't have anything to contribute. 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:36.560 You guys are you know? Yeah, basically wasting more time 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.279 with me, And it was just one of those that 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.800 I felt like it was more my ex wife just 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.679 trying to cause problems in my life. Yeah. 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:47.000 Do you think that's because your ex wife knew meryor 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:48.880 because you guys went to the same church that because 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:49.839 she knew Mary. 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.160 And I don't even know how much she knew. 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:56.599 Mary when they came and asked you. So their memo 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:58.080 says that when they came and asked you. 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.840 Have a card or anything I have, I can give 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:03.040 you a personal card. 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.920 So that's so I'm an investigator journalist out of Pittsburgh. 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:19.000 I'm here working on this story. Paul works for iHeart Media. 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:21.640 We're working on an audio documentary on the Fisher case. 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:24.479 So but I've spent about ten months researching it. So 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:27.440 I'm tracking down everything that I can. And I mean, 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:31.440 and you know, full disclosure, I have the memo that 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.280 they wrote after they spoke to you, so. 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:34.000 I don't know. 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.760 I mean, they obviously let it go, so I but 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:41.600 I didn't want to not attempt to that. So that's interesting. Yeah, 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.080 when when they spoke to you and they asked you 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.800 if you knew who Robert Fisher was, the memo says 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.440 that you said you didn't recognize the name Robert Fisher. 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:51.840 Yeah. When they said to the person, I'm like, who's 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:55.480 Robert Fisher? I know Fisher that I worked with, and 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.080 I was kind of like, oh is it is it 0:06:58.200 --> 0:06:59.680 something to do with with work? 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.120 But you didn't recognize even even though you guys went 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.240 to the same church and he was accused of somebody 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:08.120 who was accused of you didn't recognize his name. 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:10.920 No, No, it was because it was such a remote 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.520 thing for me, like I don't know who this guy 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.440 really is. Yeah, it was a very traumatic time. 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:17.119 At the church. 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:21.120 Yeah, for sure. Do you remember what year? 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:23.560 Did do you stop going to the church at some point? 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.440 I think what year that was, because this was two 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:27.600 thousand and one that this happened. 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:33.000 I was already not going to the church then, I believe, Yeah, 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.040 got two thousand and one would have been Yeah, I 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:37.320 would have not I know him in the church. 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:39.760 Then, So when they spoke to you and asked you 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:41.520 if you would take a light detector test, did you 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:42.920 decline the light detector test? 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:44.720 Just like, I don't want to deal with this because 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:46.720 I don't know. I mean, I've never taken a light 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.720 of detector's test before, and like, what is it gonna? 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:52.880 What is it gonna do? I mean, I had nothing 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:53.440 to do with it. 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:59.040 Yeah, So so i'man I have to flat out ask you, 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.080 did you ever meet Robert Fitcher? Did you know him 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:01.320 at all? 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.160 I may have passed him in the church, but like 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:06.720 I said, I would not know him if I saw 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.640 him probably that wouldn't have known him by name. I 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:15.120 wasn't affiliated with him in any way, so other than 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:16.560 going attending the same church. 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:19.400 So you know, the FBI in the Scotstco Police apartment 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:21.600 saw your employment records. I don't know if you knew 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.880 that for April two thousand and one. Do you remember 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.080 where you were when that event? Dah, absolutely, because it 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:30.480 was it was not very pleasant. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:35.200 Yeah. I was out doing there's a project manager owned 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.240 project out there, and they came in showing their badges 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.400 and I was in the middle of a meeting. Very embarrassing. Yeah. 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:46.320 Yeah, So they interviewed you at work and then you 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:47.959 did you go down to the scottscol Police apartment. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:55.040 I went down to downtown. It was like this really 0:08:55.160 --> 0:09:00.680 undis descript building down like on Third Avenue downtown somewhere. 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.360 If you remember, do you do you mind if I 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.520 read you part of the memo that they wrote. 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.520 And asked go ahead? Is that our fact? 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:17.000 So says we next interviewed about his knowledge of Robert Fisher. 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.280 At first, when we asked her if he knew Robert Fisher, 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.319 he stated he did not recognize the name, and then 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.360 they went on to explain what happened, and essentially, more 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:28.480 or less, they noticed that during the interview with he 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.400 appeared to be very nervous and was breathing heavily. Do 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:33.559 you remember how you felt like when they showed. 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.640 Up or kind of like I do right now, just 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:42.240 like understandable. I don't. I don't want to tell anybody 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.520 about that. It just feels like I'm being interrogated over 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:49.480 something that I had nothing involved with him. Well, when 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.240 I brought up my ex wife and the divorce and 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.560 all that stuff that she and I went through, and 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:59.840 the vindictive stuff that went on that fit the bill before, 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.319 the things that she would try to do, like try 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.000 to pin me on something that was around. 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:06.600 You don't think it. You think it was your ex 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:07.520 wife who spoke. 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:09.520 To the I don't know. It's just that's what it 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:10.800 felt like, and that's what I told him. 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.319 So I have some I got I got it from records, 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.720 but I don't know if somebody like for some reason 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.200 sets I know that you know, and you're obviously they 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:19.960 talked to a ton of people, so I know you're 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:21.880 not the only person that they want, and they spoke 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:27.679 to probably dozens or hundreds of people. So is there 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.320 How how long were you about the church for you 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:32.640 left be four two thousand moths that happening. 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:34.800 Yeah, I can't remember how many years you went. There 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:37.319 was a big church. 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:43.080 Yeah, but do you they said that you recalled once 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:46.360 they started speaking to you, that your wife, your ex wife, 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.280 knew Mary, and that your kids knew the Fisher. 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:52.679 Kids they went to the same they didn't. They knew 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:56.680 them from church, going to the Sunday school and the 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.320 same Sunday school classes. And they may have I don't 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.360 know if they did any field trips or anything from 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:04.720 a church standpoint within. 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:05.000 Them or not. 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:08.360 They never played with them outside. 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.520 Of church, But I was the world did did do 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.160 you know later on? Like afterwards, did any of them 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:17.800 metual friends like like the Rodents, like Jim Roden or 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.520 the pastor Cantelmo, Like, did did you know any of 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:23.400 those people like that were friends with the Fishers? 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.880 The name as you mentioned the names, I kind of 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:31.600 remember the names now, but I honestly couldn't remember who 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.200 who was friends with who? And who did what who 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:35.960 at the church? 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.679 Are you? I appreciate you answer answering. I apologize as 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:42.599 to show up, but I mean you understand if I 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:44.640 see see you know your name. 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:48.880 And the memo, why would be curious? It's okay? 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:49.920 Yeah, go like. 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.440 When all that happened with Robert Fisher, like I imagine 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:58.560 like it was a crazy thing to hear about right, 0:11:58.679 --> 0:11:59.559 Like do you remember like. 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.400 When you said about what happened, like it was a 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:07.880 horrible act about Yeah, I mean anybody and the fact 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:13.000 that nobody's ever found him that's disturbing. 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:18.240 Yeah, you think, is this living in the woods somewhere? 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.120 Do you think he like? You know, I can't even specially, 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:22.800 I mean I've heard a lot of different things. Yeah, 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.520 I don't know enough about him to say whether I 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:31.240 could even say that he's he's a good survivalist or whatever, 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.360 other than what I've heard the news and what you 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.480 guys have done the reporters have put out. 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:38.560 Have you ever been approached by a journalist? Or are 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.480 we the first? You're the first, So I apologize that 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.040 I know this is probably jarring for you, but it 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.319 has been years since a lot of time. So when 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.320 they when they I know they were at your work, 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:51.080 but they also you said they brought you down to 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.679 the to the f guy office or does this gousshill police? 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:58.640 They asked me to come down there and that I 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.840 met with him later. I didn't leave work and go 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.920 with at that point, gotcha, I took their card and 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.360 then probably I don't even if I still had their 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:13.800 information around. But I was in the middle of custody, 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:19.760 divorced stuff and all that going on, So it wasn't 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.600 it wasn't. I mean, it wasn't easy to deal with 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:25.640 that on top of all the other stuff too. 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:29.200 So if they so they were seeking your employment records, 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.480 if would your employment records show that you were at 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:34.560 work in all of April two thousand and one or 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.880 is there any chance that you took Basically it would 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:39.760 back up your story, like, is there any chance you 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:43.319 took time off around the time that all this happened, 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:45.520 which would have been like mid April two thousand and one. 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.480 I wouldn't even know if it correlated with that or not. 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.720 Yeah, I mean, if they asked for your work records, 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:53.520 would you be willing to grant them access to your 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:54.959 work records? 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.640 I wouldn't have had I probably wouldn't have. They would 0:13:57.640 --> 0:13:59.559 probably have the subpoenaform. I don't know. Yeah, And I 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.319 don't know how they got my work records or they 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:03.240 that they had them. 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:05.319 I don't think that they actually got access to it. 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.240 I think that they sought them, and I don't think 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.080 that gave it to them. But I'm saying that if 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.240 they were to ask you if somebody asked you today, 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.040 if they asked for like, if they had your permission 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.319 to obtain your work records from April two thousand and one, 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:19.040 would they. 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.600 Would I don't know what I would do on that 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:23.720 that I want to think I'd probably want to talk to, 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.840 you know, professional for some advice on how to handle that, 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:36.240 because like this, it just goes way beyond helping in 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:41.560 AH in a case like that, as opposed to feeling 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:44.880 like now I am being looked at it for some reason. 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.120 If your if your work records from April two thousand 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.360 and one didn't show anything suspicious, why would you be 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:52.520 concerned about them obtaining your work records? 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.800 That's an interesting question, But I, like I just said, 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.560 it turns it as being why would they want them 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:06.160 if they're not just wanting my help? Yeah, if they'm 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.440 trying to look at something that I did in that 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:15.240 whole thing, and I have to prove myself. Yeah, and 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:17.040 I know that I had nothing to do with it, 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.680 but that's a whole different animal. Yeah, And that's where 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.000 I think that if it goes there, I would probably 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:26.280 have to get an attorney. And the same with the 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:27.240 lie detector test. 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.240 Do you feel like if you did it it would 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.120 just basically help the because obviously they're suspicious. I think 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:37.640 they're suspicious that somehow they're suspicious of people who possibly 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:41.240 assisted but were not directly involved with Robert Fisher. And 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:43.960 I know that they were suspicious of you obviously, that's 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.160 why they spoke to you. So I think what I 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.920 would say is I know on their end like they 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:50.960 care about finding him. 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.240 They don't. If I had the information, yeah, I would 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.600 give it to him. He'll get the guy. I mean, 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.440 I don't have any information. I don't know him. I 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.200 wishould do it. I wish I could help, But to 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.240 go through all that other stuff, all that does is 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:09.160 put expense on me and angst on me, and for 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:13.000 what Yeah? Yeah, So. 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:16.880 In April two thousand and one, do you so, Paul, 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.120 We've asked like it you remember when the event occurred, 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:21.240 but do you remember that day? Were you at work 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:22.400 that day? April tenth? 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.360 I couldn't tell you where I was that day? 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.360 Do you remember the aftermath of it? Like did you 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:29.720 go to the church, do you go to any of 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.000 the memorial stuff where you involved in anything like that? 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:35.920 Do you remember ever meeting Mary Fisher or the kids. 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:41.720 I think I remember meeting her outside in the breezeway 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.760 when the kids were going in and out of from 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:49.680 Sunday school to church and whatnot, and that would be it. 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.720 So, but when this happened, you told them that you 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:57.360 did not recognize the name Robert Fisher. Like, even like 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.720 sculls Sill is a very peaceful, calm suburb, how did 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:02.640 you not recognize saying Robert Fisher? 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:04.840 Because I live in scott Steal and I only went 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.320 to the church and he attended the church when there 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:11.200 were five hundred people that went there. Yeah, So to 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.960 throw out a name and like I don't know who that. 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:19.120 Is, yeah, that's fair. So in two thousand and one, 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.080 do you mind me asking in April two thousand and 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:22.359 one what vehicle you were driving? 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:33.560 So we had a minivan. I think I had a 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:40.480 I had four truck. That's right, my X had the minivan. 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:41.359 I had a truck. 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:43.080 What color was the truck? 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.639 It's like a teal. I believe I think that was 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:46.480 the one that I had. 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.119 Did you were you? Have you ever been up to 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.000 the area around young where they found the fore Runner. 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.160 I've been in that area when I had camped with 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:01.080 my well, my kids think. I don't know the exact 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:02.320 area though, but I've been on. 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.040 That up in the like off Young Highway, Like it's 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:07.080 north just north Intotween when you come off of what 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:09.400 is it to sixty from Pacin and then down to Young. 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:10.040 It's in between that. 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:15.160 Yeah, area, it's a very common camping area. Yeah, yeah, 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:17.120 of course. And I mean it's the main road going 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:21.280 down through Young. But what was what was your reaction 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.920 when they showed up? I mean you must have been. 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:25.040 Were you confused? 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:25.760 Why? 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:27.520 Like why are these why are these guys showing up 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:28.000 at my work? 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:31.080 Before? Yeah? 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:31.280 I was. 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:37.840 It was very disturbing and embarrassing, like, Okay, why why 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:41.360 am I being looked at? And I've got to I've 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:44.320 got a meaning and i am the one in charge, 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:48.560 and now I've got FBI with badges pulling me aside 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:49.520 to talk to me. 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:53.560 Do you feel were you concerned about like how that 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:54.600 may appear to your. 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:55.800 Coworkers or is that. 0:18:57.359 --> 0:18:59.359 Do you feel like they did that on purpose showing 0:18:59.440 --> 0:18:59.960 up at your job. 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:06.480 I don't know how they do their investigations. I mean 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:08.640 kind of like you guys show them up here. Yeah, 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:10.280 I mean, how do I feel that you're showing up 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:15.600 at my house? Yeah, I don't like it because I 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:16.640 have nothing to do with it. 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.119 So to be clear, if they asked today either for 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.080 your work workers at April two thousand one or for 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:23.560 you to take. 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:29.040 A while, okay, so, and you are with. 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.480 So, I'm independent, but we're working on an audio project 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:33.040 for iHeart. 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.159 I don't have anything to do with that. Can I 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:40.959 Can I ask you one more question my patience has 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:42.120 done with yes. 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.159 So obviously what they suspected is that you in some 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.840 way assisted Barbaria Fisher after or daring what happened? Is 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:49.840 that true or false? 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:54.479 Absolutely not? And if you keep asking me this, I'm 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:56.640 going to call the police and have you removed from 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.880 my property. So please leave. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:07.280 Okay, thank you appreciate it. Thanks Paul, and I hustle 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.360 back to the car. The other Paul Gemper line, our 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:17.960 researcher is today our getaway driver. We speed away. 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.240 Within like the first two minutes. His body he almost 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.439 like got kind of emotional red, like his eyes started 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:27.040 to get red as if he almost had tears. 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:29.720 Coming into his office. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I noticed that too. 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:35.560 And he mentioned how when you brought up the fissure 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.639 and all this case and all this stuff, how it 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:41.320 seemed to tie in at this That was also the 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.639 same time when him and his wife got divorced, and 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.880 so part of me was like, oh, that's he's getting 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.600 emotional because like there's bad blood between him and his 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:54.639 ex wife and he is dredging that up, is immediately 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:59.119 making him kind of emotional. As one possible explanation, I. 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.760 Don't so he's seen very nervous. He almost looked like 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:04.480 he was shaking. His face looked like flushbread it's been 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:07.520 I mean, that's that's I think it's very different to 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:10.520 ask about somebody's divorce, which is an uncomfortable, sad thing. 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.840 But twenty five years later versus showing up asking about 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.440 Robert Fisher, he was definitely off. I mean you could tell, 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:19.600 and at some points I felt like he was giving 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:21.040 me like a death glare. But I mean, I don't 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:22.160 blame him, but. 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:27.720 I mean again just thinking. Also, yeah, the flip side 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:30.240 is like, I don't know, the things you read about 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.359 when people get people who are guilty get confronted about stuff, 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:37.000 they often have a tendency to just keep talking. 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:39.520 That's what I was thinking too, That's what I was thinking. 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.840 It's like I would like he kept speaking. He looked nervous, 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:45.320 he was a little shaky. I was shaky. So I 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:48.120 was trying to think and observe and look at my questions. 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:50.040 And he asked for my a business card, so I 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:52.400 had to pull my wallet out, and you know, now 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:56.120 I'm like, dear lord, don't find my address. Like, yes, 0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:01.080 he was very again, it's under I don't know. He 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.280 seemed off to me, like he was obviously shaken that 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:06.520 we showed up. And I don't blame him for being shaken, 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.960 but you know, I mean, I've just like the cops. 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:11.840 I've spoken to a ton of people. The cops spoke 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:15.240 to a ton of people, and you know, he was 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:17.920 he was off. I wonder if you observed, because I 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:20.360 was looking at him obviously, but my mind was going 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:24.480 like one hundred miles an hour, and I wonder generally, 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:28.760 like physically, see what was interesting to me is he declined? 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:30.639 I didn't he actually see? He started telling me things 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:32.960 I didn't know, right, so like I didn't know. That's 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:34.840 why you kind of go in and not bluff, but 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:36.879 you just don't necessarily say, well, this is what I know. 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:37.919 What didn't you know that? 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:39.800 He said, I didn't know that he went down and 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:41.520 that they asked him to take a lie detective test, 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:44.159 and he said, no, I didn't know that. Then we 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:47.040 asked him again if he would, basically, why did you 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:49.359 not take one? And I didn't feel like he had 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:52.879 a good answer for that, And we asked about the 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:54.760 employment record, saying to me was a little bit more 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:56.960 of a red flag because I understand why somebody would 0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:59.600 be nervous about a lie detector tests. I mean, they 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:05.240 can be they're valuable sometimes, but the employment records is 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:08.200 bizarre to me. Because I asked him, you know, I'll 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:10.400 have to listen, but I asked him flat out, if 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:13.480 somebody asked you today, if would you give them permission 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:17.359 to access your employment records from April two thousand and one? 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:20.120 Would that verify that you know, you didn't take any 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:22.080 time off from work? And then he said that he 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:25.320 wouldn't more or less because he would, am I remembering 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:28.439 this correctly? More or less because you know, why should 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:30.560 he because he shouldn't have to prove anything, or at 0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:32.280 that point he would involve he said, I think a 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:36.160 professional obviously an attorney so I just find that kind 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:39.880 of weird. I mean, if I I understand nervousness about 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:42.040 a lie detective test, though, you know, I think a 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:44.160 lot of people would just do it to clear themselves 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:49.320 of any involvement in a multiple murder. But the employment 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:52.080 records was weirder to me. I think because it's an 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:54.320 employment record saying whether or not you're at work. I mean, 0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:58.240 it's not that suspicious. So it's more a lot of 0:23:58.240 --> 0:23:59.919 times it's less about what you're asking you more to 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:02.520 more about how they're responding to certain things. 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:08.520 I think, Well, especially because unprompted on that request that query, 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:11.120 he was like, I'd probably have to hire an attorney, 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:12.720 or I'd want to hire an attorney. 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:14.600 Yeah. I was like, okay, yeah. 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:17.240 So I just thought, like if if your employment records, 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:20.760 like even if you took time off in April doesn't 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:24.120 prove anything. So I just don't know why you get 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:26.560 so nervous somebody asking about your employment records. It's to me, 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:29.440 it's more of a like you know that there's something 0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:31.919 there or other. I don't know. I mean, I'm just 0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:34.239 reading it in my interpretation of it. But he was 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:38.919 definitely shaken and he started to look angry at the end. Oh, yeah, 0:24:38.960 --> 0:24:43.360 he looked pissed, so I I to see. As soon 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:46.520 as he asked us to leave, we left. So yeah, 0:24:46.920 --> 0:24:48.840 we didn't stay, but he didn't ask us to leave. 0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:52.920 He his face looked red to me. He looked almost 0:24:52.960 --> 0:24:53.919 a little shaky to me. 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:57.760 Yeah, And eyes looked like they're almost like water like, 0:24:57.760 --> 0:24:59.440 like on the verge of becoming emotional. 0:24:59.600 --> 0:24:59.879 Yeah. 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:29.120 Yeah, the reaction Part two. 0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:33.560 The Fisher murders traumatized hundreds of people. Let's zoom in 0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:36.120 and focus on one of them, a ten year old boy, 0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:41.200 Bobby Fisher's friend brock Anderson, whose mom Beth knew Bobby's 0:25:41.240 --> 0:25:44.480 mom Mary. Beth was the last person to see Mary 0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:47.760 and Bobby alive, right before the murders. How did this 0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:50.000 affect your son, who was very young? 0:25:50.720 --> 0:26:06.399 Horribly? Horribly? Yeah, Well, he was at school and I 0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:08.600 went and picked him up because I was scared to 0:26:08.680 --> 0:26:10.720 death that he was going to find out from someone else, 0:26:11.160 --> 0:26:17.199 And so we told him what had happened, and we 0:26:17.320 --> 0:26:19.879 just said that there had been an accident at the 0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:26.879 house and that you know, they were We just told him, 0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:31.720 we said, they're with Jesus now, you know, how do you, 0:26:32.320 --> 0:26:34.160 how do you explain this to a ten year old. 0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:37.360 The next day, Beth and Brock visited the Fisher's cul 0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:37.760 de sac. 0:26:38.160 --> 0:26:42.399 He cried, it was everybody was just a mess. So 0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:47.000 he did take a little animal, stuffed animal that he 0:26:47.000 --> 0:26:52.679 could leave for Bobby. And so he asked one of 0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:55.280 the I don't know if it was a firefighter or 0:26:55.280 --> 0:26:59.040 policeman or whoever was there, if he would be allowed 0:26:59.040 --> 0:27:01.040 to take one of the pine cones out of the yard. 0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:06.720 And they said, yes, that's fine, that's fine, and he said, well, 0:27:06.760 --> 0:27:10.080 Bobby was my buddy and I want a pine cone 0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:14.480 from his house. And so they let him take pine 0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:18.520 cone and he still has it to this day. So 0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:22.600 we didn't stay very long and just left and just 0:27:23.040 --> 0:27:25.359 talked about it. You know, what are you feeling, what 0:27:25.480 --> 0:27:28.480 are your emotions? How do you feel about all this? 0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:31.760 And how can we best help you? I mean, this 0:27:31.920 --> 0:27:34.960 poor kid, he had nightmares like every night. He was 0:27:35.119 --> 0:27:38.080 so scared Robert he could kill Bobby. Is he going 0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:41.760 to come after all Bobby's friends? And I remember him saying, 0:27:41.800 --> 0:27:46.119 you know, I was just at their house and Robert 0:27:46.160 --> 0:27:48.760 had been to our house before. So he said, Robert, 0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:51.080 mister Robert knows where we live. Is he going to 0:27:51.160 --> 0:27:55.399 come after everybody and start killing all of us. It 0:27:55.480 --> 0:27:58.760 was just the worst. We just said, there's evil in 0:27:58.800 --> 0:28:03.360 this world and there are people that do bad things. 0:28:03.720 --> 0:28:07.359 And you know, he would say, well, well why, mister Robert. 0:28:07.520 --> 0:28:10.760 You know, we don't know. We wish we had all 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:13.480 the answers, not just for you, but for us too. 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:19.080 And Brock was he was a wise kid, and I 0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:21.840 think he understood the fact that he lost his buddy. 0:28:21.840 --> 0:28:26.359 But I lost a friend too, and so I just 0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:30.080 told him we will get through this. It won't be easy, 0:28:30.560 --> 0:28:33.040 and it's okay for you to cry. It's okay for 0:28:33.119 --> 0:28:35.919 you to yell or scream or throw something or do 0:28:36.000 --> 0:28:39.160 whatever you have to do to deal with the pain 0:28:39.200 --> 0:28:40.000 that you're feeling. 0:28:40.320 --> 0:28:44.120 I do remember the last time I saw Bobby. He 0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:48.920 and I were in the color guard for Ajana, and 0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:51.360 you know, we had this we would do our drills. 0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:54.320 Maybe we were doing drills that night, and we'd have 0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:57.160 this term dress right dress, which I guess he would 0:28:57.360 --> 0:29:01.160 shift to the right, and his humor, he just yelled out, 0:29:01.240 --> 0:29:02.720 dress right undress. 0:29:02.320 --> 0:29:04.600 And then we just started laughing and he drove away. 0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:07.840 It was just like, okay, that was like my last 0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:11.719 interaction with him was just joy and laughter. 0:29:12.720 --> 0:29:15.120 Brock was at school when Bobby's house blew up. 0:29:15.320 --> 0:29:17.480 I think I got out like two forty five that day. 0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:20.120 I just remember my parents picking me up. I don't 0:29:20.160 --> 0:29:22.880 know how I found out they were, but they were there. 0:29:23.040 --> 0:29:26.600 We had a red Chrysler le baron. I saw the 0:29:26.680 --> 0:29:29.160 le Baron, I saw both of my parents. I was like, okay, 0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:31.960 this was really weird because my dad would typically work, 0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:36.600 you know till six or seven, and so that to 0:29:36.640 --> 0:29:40.680 me it was when the unusualness started. But I was 0:29:40.680 --> 0:29:43.480 more excited of like, oh cool, guys are picking me 0:29:43.520 --> 0:29:43.680 up and. 0:29:43.680 --> 0:29:48.000 If to take the bus. So went home. My brothers 0:29:48.000 --> 0:29:48.480 were there. 0:29:49.560 --> 0:29:52.560 My mom let my middle brother and I Grant play 0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:56.960 video games, which was unusual for right after school during 0:29:57.000 --> 0:29:57.640 a school week. 0:29:58.920 --> 0:29:59.960 But they're like, yeah, it's fine. 0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:04.240 My parents rupsters in their room door closed to which 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:10.160 always meant like okay, sometimes they just need a moment whatever. 0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:14.760 But they were there for it seemed like. 0:30:14.720 --> 0:30:17.760 An hour at least, which was also just kind of 0:30:17.760 --> 0:30:19.240 like all right, this is a little weird, Like I 0:30:19.240 --> 0:30:21.800 don't know, Usually it means like some sort of big 0:30:21.840 --> 0:30:26.200 news is following that. So both came down. They brought 0:30:26.240 --> 0:30:30.720 my oldest brother down and gathered us. Hey turn that off. Okay, 0:30:31.400 --> 0:30:35.120 so again it's like family meeting. Just everything just seemed 0:30:35.160 --> 0:30:36.960 kind of like, all right, well, something really big is 0:30:37.000 --> 0:30:40.840 going on. I was airing on the side of oh yeah, 0:30:41.120 --> 0:30:43.280 we're going to Disneyland or something like that, you know, 0:30:43.480 --> 0:30:47.040 something that a ten year old might suspect. But man, 0:30:47.160 --> 0:30:50.920 never in my wildest dreams would I have expected that 0:30:50.960 --> 0:30:54.840 sort of news. I mean, my dad, you know, very 0:30:55.120 --> 0:31:00.440 very stoic, very just a quiet confident man, you know, 0:31:00.560 --> 0:31:05.200 really struggled to say, you know, Mary, Brittany and Bobby 0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:07.680 have gone to be with Jesus today, just choked up 0:31:08.280 --> 0:31:11.840 and him, you know, showing that emotion. 0:31:12.040 --> 0:31:13.080 It was just like whoa. 0:31:13.400 --> 0:31:17.240 I mean, it just immediately is in shock, very much denial, 0:31:17.520 --> 0:31:20.400 Like no, it was was that even mean, you know, 0:31:20.560 --> 0:31:23.800 it just it took it felt like forever for it 0:31:23.840 --> 0:31:27.400 to really even remotely start to sink in. 0:31:29.480 --> 0:31:32.440 On April eleventh, two thousand and one, Brock visited what 0:31:32.600 --> 0:31:35.720 was left of twenty two twenty three North seventy fourth Place. 0:31:36.040 --> 0:31:39.080 I remember just the house was still smoldering. 0:31:39.120 --> 0:31:43.280 Grieving loved one circled rubble, leaving mementos and putting up flyers, 0:31:43.720 --> 0:31:47.080 trying to make sense of tragedy. So also six months later, 0:31:47.120 --> 0:31:49.840 obviously nine to eleven happened. That's kind of a double 0:31:49.920 --> 0:31:52.960 punch for you at a really important moment of development, 0:31:53.520 --> 0:31:55.880 and I imagine for your sense of safety and how 0:31:55.920 --> 0:31:58.840 you process the world. To have something happen so personal 0:31:59.160 --> 0:32:02.840 in April and then global, but it still extremely upsetting 0:32:03.480 --> 0:32:06.760 in September must have had a very serious impact on 0:32:06.840 --> 0:32:09.000 you for the rest of your life. 0:32:09.240 --> 0:32:11.520 Yeah, two thousand and one was a healthy year. I was. 0:32:12.600 --> 0:32:14.800 I've even talked about this with a couple close friends 0:32:14.800 --> 0:32:17.720 of mine, Ryan and Ricky, that you know, I experienced 0:32:17.720 --> 0:32:24.320 trauma from a very close perspective to suddenly a nationwide, worldwide. 0:32:23.840 --> 0:32:28.840 Thing in a matter of months, And just looking. 0:32:28.600 --> 0:32:31.600 Back on that now, it's like, oh my gosh, Like yeah, 0:32:31.680 --> 0:32:35.479 I mean I think back to my ten eleven year 0:32:35.480 --> 0:32:39.480 old self and like, yeah, my perspective of people the 0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:45.480 world was very shattered, you know where I think it 0:32:45.560 --> 0:32:49.760 was just more important for me to just find safety 0:32:49.760 --> 0:32:51.640 however I could, and a lot of that was just 0:32:51.680 --> 0:32:58.360 through isolation, I remember. Yeah, for a few years really 0:32:58.400 --> 0:33:02.080 being like having an immense fear of dark. I haven't 0:33:02.080 --> 0:33:04.160 really thought about it much in terms of connecting it 0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:06.720 to oh it is Robert, But I remember having those 0:33:06.720 --> 0:33:09.440 thoughts as a kid of like, yeah, I think talking 0:33:09.440 --> 0:33:11.920 to my mom or dad being like, he's not going 0:33:11.960 --> 0:33:14.560 to come after us, right, and they're like, no, I 0:33:14.600 --> 0:33:18.520 really don't think so. And I think that's where even 0:33:18.560 --> 0:33:20.520 to this day, like my wife can attest to it, 0:33:20.600 --> 0:33:20.840 like I. 0:33:22.680 --> 0:33:24.480 Just like to make sure things are locked up at home. 0:33:24.640 --> 0:33:28.959 Can you talk to me about how you, as an adult, 0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:33.240 have realized ways that you've turned out as a human being, personality, traits, 0:33:33.600 --> 0:33:37.479 your mental health, things that you've been through. Obviously there 0:33:37.480 --> 0:33:40.640 are many causes and from genetics to a million other 0:33:40.680 --> 0:33:43.120 things in your life. It's not all Robert Fisher. But 0:33:43.280 --> 0:33:47.120 how have you connected the dots to understand the parts 0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:50.080 of you that were deeply affected in a way that 0:33:50.200 --> 0:33:53.400 you probably didn't realize until you were older and an adult. 0:33:54.840 --> 0:34:02.120 Yeah, how difficult relationships were and still kind of ore 0:34:02.240 --> 0:34:05.880 for me, you know. I mean that's I look back on, 0:34:06.520 --> 0:34:09.359 you know, when I first went to therapy. I think 0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:10.920 that was when it started to sink in for me. 0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:13.200 Of like, oh, like I was. 0:34:15.680 --> 0:34:16.200 Yeah, I was. 0:34:16.239 --> 0:34:18.400 I was generally a shy kid, you know, growing up, 0:34:18.440 --> 0:34:20.799 and I was just just more of my demeanor who 0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:21.200 I was. 0:34:21.920 --> 0:34:22.080 You know. 0:34:22.120 --> 0:34:26.520 I have my family's background or roots or Midwest and 0:34:26.880 --> 0:34:29.400 East Coast, but I think I got more of the 0:34:29.440 --> 0:34:33.799 Midwest kind of just quiet and to myself, but more 0:34:33.800 --> 0:34:37.439 of a physical presence kind of person. So I think 0:34:37.600 --> 0:34:40.200 just looking back on, yeah, my friendship with Bobby and. 0:34:42.400 --> 0:34:46.720 Just how that can be severed so quickly. 0:34:47.200 --> 0:34:50.319 I mean that just from that time on, you know, 0:34:50.400 --> 0:34:54.360 into middle school and high school, like I had friends, 0:34:54.400 --> 0:34:58.960 but I just I was very just to myself. That 0:34:59.040 --> 0:35:02.960 was just kind of what I referred. But deep down though, 0:35:03.000 --> 0:35:06.560 there was that longing, like this tension within me of like, man, 0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:08.600 I just like I want friends, I want to have connection. 0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:12.279 I had mentioned in a different interview of feeling suicidal 0:35:12.320 --> 0:35:14.480 at times, and I think I look back on that now, 0:35:14.560 --> 0:35:17.359 it's like, yeah, I was so alone, you know, and 0:35:17.400 --> 0:35:20.480 that was what I felt like was protective for me. 0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:24.080 But also looking at as like my human interaction was 0:35:24.160 --> 0:35:27.279 very limited. I had my family, and honestly, like I 0:35:27.280 --> 0:35:29.120 think they kept me going. 0:35:29.520 --> 0:35:29.680 You know. 0:35:29.680 --> 0:35:32.279 I imagine for you as a kid who was. It 0:35:32.320 --> 0:35:35.040 sounds like you were more introverted, and so was I. 0:35:35.239 --> 0:35:37.200 The friends that you do have are very valuable to you, 0:35:37.800 --> 0:35:41.879 and you would have grown up alongside Bobby. You guys 0:35:41.920 --> 0:35:44.040 would probably still be friends today. I imagine it was 0:35:44.040 --> 0:35:48.120 difficult to go through graduation, to go through all the 0:35:48.480 --> 0:35:51.960 different little milestones of life, and to know that this 0:35:52.040 --> 0:35:54.560 friend you had was taken from you. It's not exactly 0:35:54.600 --> 0:35:57.240 the same, but when I was twenty eight, my oldest 0:35:57.239 --> 0:36:00.960 friend was we met when we were nine. In twenty sixteen, 0:36:01.440 --> 0:36:04.840 he passed from cancer and was a one in a 0:36:04.960 --> 0:36:07.000 literally a one in one million cancer. 0:36:07.480 --> 0:36:09.040 Right, It's like, what are. 0:36:08.960 --> 0:36:11.239 The what are the literally one in one million is 0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:13.640 such an ex It's a called uing sarcoma is a 0:36:13.760 --> 0:36:14.160 very rare. 0:36:14.520 --> 0:36:17.360 But we right after we were born one day apart. 0:36:17.440 --> 0:36:19.839 We grew up two houses down from each other, and 0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:22.279 it's I got to live to be into my late 0:36:22.320 --> 0:36:25.800 twenties with him as my literally literally my oldest friend 0:36:25.960 --> 0:36:28.160 and the only friend that I've lost like that happened 0:36:28.200 --> 0:36:30.319 to be somebody so close and somebody that I knew 0:36:30.360 --> 0:36:33.240 since I was nine years old. Wow, sorry about that last, 0:36:33.960 --> 0:36:36.240 but it's always there with you and I had another 0:36:36.880 --> 0:36:39.920 eighteen years of memories that you didn't get with your friend. 0:36:40.200 --> 0:36:45.400 How do you balance keeping the memories alive without letting 0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:46.319 them consume you. 0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:49.280 Yeah, that's a great question. 0:36:50.040 --> 0:36:53.040 Certainly for me when I started to go to therapy, 0:36:53.320 --> 0:36:55.560 I mean that was like really having a space to 0:36:55.600 --> 0:36:58.440 just talk about it, you know, talk about what happened, 0:36:58.480 --> 0:37:01.840 and yeah, yeah, I have a trained professional help me 0:37:01.840 --> 0:37:05.600 through the different issues the trauma itself. But I think 0:37:05.640 --> 0:37:08.000 that having so I have these you know, two really 0:37:08.200 --> 0:37:11.360 close friends, Ryan and Ricky, like that those guys have 0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:16.279 been so redeeming for me and relationships how I view 0:37:16.360 --> 0:37:19.400 friendship now. They've brought a lot of healing for me, 0:37:19.640 --> 0:37:22.040 and I think just really leaning into that and more 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:25.600 of the present. And it's hard to describe, I guess, 0:37:25.600 --> 0:37:28.600 the balancing act, but I think for me, I had to. 0:37:29.920 --> 0:37:34.400 I had to face the things that were really uncomfortable 0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:37.080 for me through therapy, and I think a part of 0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:39.719 that was a decision to not just get so consumed 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:44.240 by this terrible thing happened. Where's Robert. It's Robert, Robert, 0:37:44.239 --> 0:37:46.040 you know. I think just getting so fixated on that 0:37:46.120 --> 0:37:48.160 left me really stuck. So I think I had to 0:37:48.840 --> 0:37:52.080 look at it and say, Okay, well, I may never 0:37:52.800 --> 0:37:56.359 see justice for Robert, you know, in the sense of 0:37:56.440 --> 0:37:58.279 like apprehension and put on. 0:37:58.280 --> 0:38:01.080 Trial and put to or whatever. You know. 0:38:01.880 --> 0:38:04.799 I had to accept I may never see that in 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:08.560 my life, and for me, like, there has to be 0:38:08.600 --> 0:38:12.200 a level of acceptance and okayness with that. And I 0:38:12.239 --> 0:38:15.400 think that was where I started to see my life 0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:18.480 as my life apart from this tragedy. 0:38:19.000 --> 0:38:22.720 On April tenth, twenty sixteen, the fifteenth anniversary of the murders, 0:38:22.920 --> 0:38:24.560 Brock proposed to his girlfriend. 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:29.640 I wanted to use that for as a symbolism of okay, 0:38:29.680 --> 0:38:31.360 and that's not the end of the story here, like 0:38:31.920 --> 0:38:34.880 new life happens and starts on this day. 0:38:35.000 --> 0:38:37.960 It was a beautiful proposal. We had a party for 0:38:38.040 --> 0:38:43.160 them at the house and he told everybody that was there. 0:38:43.239 --> 0:38:45.640 You know, they thanked everybody for coming, but he said, 0:38:46.200 --> 0:38:50.960 I just have to share with you guys that he said, 0:38:51.120 --> 0:38:58.400 this day is very meaningful to me. One side is hard, 0:38:58.640 --> 0:39:01.160 and a lot of people that were there, not everybody, 0:39:01.160 --> 0:39:05.000 but several people knew what had happened with the Fishers, 0:39:05.080 --> 0:39:07.600 but maybe they didn't connect that. Oh gosh, today is 0:39:07.640 --> 0:39:11.280 April tenth. This is an anniversary day. So he told everybody, 0:39:11.320 --> 0:39:14.239 he said, you know, April tenth has always been a 0:39:14.360 --> 0:39:18.440 rough day for me and a negative day. It brings 0:39:18.480 --> 0:39:22.400 back negative memories. So he said, I purposely chose and 0:39:22.440 --> 0:39:25.799 he told them why. He said, I purposely chose this 0:39:25.920 --> 0:39:29.120 day because I want to change that in my head. 0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:32.520 I want this to become a day of celebration. And 0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:36.480 our daughter in law is She's just amazing and she 0:39:37.320 --> 0:39:39.799 I think was very influential in being able to help 0:39:39.840 --> 0:39:43.440 Brock kind of find his way. So he went back 0:39:43.480 --> 0:39:48.279 to school, graduated from ASU, and then decided he wants 0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:50.880 to be a therapist. So that's what he did. He 0:39:50.920 --> 0:39:54.600 got his master's so he is now a family and 0:39:54.840 --> 0:40:01.439 marriage therapist and I just I hang onto that. It's 0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:05.000 like you go, kid. I mean because from that day 0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:08.800 in two thousand and one to where he is now 0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:12.840 is just And when he first told us he wanted 0:40:12.840 --> 0:40:17.640 to pursue therapy as a career, I said, do you 0:40:17.640 --> 0:40:21.680 have any idea what kind? And he said, right now, 0:40:21.719 --> 0:40:28.280 I'm thinking trauma. Like okay, He's like, you know, after 0:40:28.560 --> 0:40:31.399 what I went through and losing my friend at ten 0:40:31.480 --> 0:40:35.880 years old and trying to deal with all the garbage 0:40:36.800 --> 0:40:40.200 that comes with that through the years. It was a 0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:43.440 long process for him. He got counseling as an adult, 0:40:44.080 --> 0:40:46.319 you know, to deal with it. I didn't realize that 0:40:46.360 --> 0:40:51.200 he was still needing counseling. It's like, gosh, this is 0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:54.759 still hanging heavy on me. So he got help that 0:40:54.840 --> 0:40:57.480 he needed and now here he is helping others. So 0:40:58.080 --> 0:41:01.239 very proud of that. I think that's a positive thing 0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:05.360 that he's been able to do, taking something so bad 0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:07.480 and turning it into a positive. 0:41:07.880 --> 0:41:13.840 This journey has really been from the Fisher story my 0:41:13.960 --> 0:41:17.640 own healing and I think also finding a renewed sense 0:41:17.640 --> 0:41:21.319 of okay, like back to the closure thing, what does 0:41:21.360 --> 0:41:23.319 my life look like now? And that comes back to 0:41:23.320 --> 0:41:26.040 this place of justice. People think of justice sure in 0:41:26.080 --> 0:41:30.120 some ways of you know, apprehension the whole thing. For me, 0:41:30.200 --> 0:41:31.879 I started to view justice. 0:41:31.680 --> 0:41:35.400 And well, what would Mary and Brittany and Bobby want. 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:38.400 You know, they were people, they were humans. 0:41:38.560 --> 0:41:43.120 Bobby I think he loved his dad. You know, he 0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:47.160 has a kid, Brittany, same thing Mary, you know, yeah, 0:41:47.280 --> 0:41:49.880 his wife going through a lot and a lot of 0:41:49.920 --> 0:41:52.799 turmoil there. But what would they want? 0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:53.839 You know? 0:41:54.239 --> 0:41:56.440 And that I really wrestled with that the more recent 0:41:56.520 --> 0:42:00.480 years with my friends and thinking through like I think 0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:04.520 justice would be helping people that hurt, whether it's the 0:42:04.600 --> 0:42:08.920 Robert Fishers of the world or the victims these the people, 0:42:08.920 --> 0:42:10.480 the survivors of this kind of stuff. 0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:12.600 It's really interesting. I was about to ask you that 0:42:12.760 --> 0:42:18.560 the previous interview you did, I've never heard anybody empathize 0:42:18.920 --> 0:42:21.319 with the Robert Fishers of the world. Obviously you're not 0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:25.319 empathizing with the action, sure, but to prevent things like 0:42:25.400 --> 0:42:30.400 this from happening, people like that need help too. I 0:42:30.440 --> 0:42:33.040 thought that was a fascinating perspective, and it's something that 0:42:33.160 --> 0:42:36.680 most people just don't voice. They don't They either don't 0:42:36.680 --> 0:42:39.080 think it or they don't want to voice it. But yeah, 0:42:39.160 --> 0:42:41.000 you're not. Part of it is, Yes, you want to 0:42:41.040 --> 0:42:43.839 help people like that obviously who have demons, but part 0:42:43.840 --> 0:42:45.879 of it is also to protect everybody else, right. 0:42:45.960 --> 0:42:46.280 Sure. 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:51.520 On April tenth, twenty twenty, Good Friday, the nineteenth anniversary 0:42:51.520 --> 0:42:54.879 of the murders, as the COVID pandemic raged, Brock drove 0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:58.239 to Young Arizona with his friends Ryan and Ricky. He 0:42:58.320 --> 0:43:02.879 wanted to reminisce, pray, make peace, They started in Scottsdale 0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:06.239 at the cemetery where Mary, Brittany and Bobby are interred, 0:43:06.600 --> 0:43:09.520 went to the Fisher's cul de Sac, then the Chase Bank, 0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:12.160 where Robert took out two hundred and eighty dollars. The 0:43:12.280 --> 0:43:15.360 night of April ninth, two thousand and one, they withdrew 0:43:15.400 --> 0:43:17.920 two hundred and eighty dollars, then drove to sup By 0:43:17.960 --> 0:43:22.879 Middle School, Scottsdale Baptist Church, and finally young Ricky led 0:43:22.920 --> 0:43:26.359 them in communion. They enjoyed dinner. The next day they 0:43:26.400 --> 0:43:29.240 started looking for the fore Runner spot. In an email, 0:43:29.320 --> 0:43:32.640 Brock said, quote on the drive, I experienced a panic 0:43:32.680 --> 0:43:36.160 attack and felt the weight of encountering the place literally 0:43:36.200 --> 0:43:39.520 and metaphorically. That represented what I knew then to be 0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:42.520 the finality of the Fisher's story. We set out to 0:43:42.560 --> 0:43:46.280 go cave searching and didn't find a single one. Instead, 0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:49.200 we traversed down into a valley, almost got lost in 0:43:49.239 --> 0:43:52.240 the forest. Ricky, a marine veteran, would beg to differ 0:43:52.560 --> 0:43:57.920 and experienced all four seasons of weather fog, rain, snow, sunshine, cold, 0:43:57.960 --> 0:44:01.960 t warm, and back. Brock sat on a log, wrote 0:44:01.960 --> 0:44:05.520 a letter addressed it to Robert Fisher drove back to 0:44:05.520 --> 0:44:09.279 Scottsdale and on Easter set it down at the cemetery, 0:44:09.680 --> 0:44:11.080 got up and left. 0:44:11.440 --> 0:44:16.359 April eleventh, twenty twenty Robert Fisher, we may never find 0:44:16.400 --> 0:44:18.680 you here on this earth. There is a chance you 0:44:18.760 --> 0:44:21.680 might have died years ago, and you could also still 0:44:21.719 --> 0:44:25.759 be alive, living a different life. God knows where you are, 0:44:26.040 --> 0:44:29.600 and I submit to that. Anger no longer carries any 0:44:29.640 --> 0:44:33.480 power over me. I have been set free. It is 0:44:33.520 --> 0:44:36.200 only through the love, grace and redemption of Jesus that 0:44:36.280 --> 0:44:38.400 I forgive you for what you have done to your family. 0:44:39.360 --> 0:44:43.319 I forgive you, Robert. I hope that confession and repentance 0:44:43.400 --> 0:44:46.000 find you, and that the truth sets you free from 0:44:46.040 --> 0:44:48.880 what you have done. In the name of our Lord 0:44:48.920 --> 0:44:52.080 and Savior, Jesus, you are forgiven, and in the name 0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:55.239 of Jesus, I commit myself to loving and helping the 0:44:55.280 --> 0:44:58.319 broken and hurting. I would even help you if I 0:44:58.360 --> 0:44:59.280 ever got the chance. 0:45:00.080 --> 0:45:00.319 Brock. 0:45:09.719 --> 0:45:13.040 If you like this show, please download our first two seasons, 0:45:13.160 --> 0:45:16.120 Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven. For updates, 0:45:16.239 --> 0:45:18.560 visit me on thirty three dot com or follow me 0:45:18.640 --> 0:45:23.520 on Twitter at John Waalzac j O n W A L. Czak. 0:45:24.040 --> 0:45:25.240 Thanks for listening. 0:45:40.280 --> 0:45:42.040 The Reaction Part three. 0:45:42.640 --> 0:45:45.240 To close out this season, I have one more interview 0:45:45.280 --> 0:45:48.720 for you, a phone call I almost didn't make because 0:45:48.760 --> 0:45:51.560 at some point I have to stop investigating and start 0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:57.040 writing right wrong. I'll never stop investigating, and this is why, 0:45:57.520 --> 0:46:02.000 because calls that seem unimportant, mundane even are often critical. 0:46:05.480 --> 0:46:05.760 Hello. 0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:06.520 This is Lynn. 0:46:07.040 --> 0:46:10.320 Lynn Mashorn is a retired nurse. She worked with Robert 0:46:10.360 --> 0:46:13.040 Fisher from the late eighties to the late nineties at 0:46:13.040 --> 0:46:14.680 Scott Still Memorial Hospital. 0:46:14.960 --> 0:46:17.799 I kind of just knew him the whole time I 0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:21.520 worked there. I think he was originally in respiratory and 0:46:21.600 --> 0:46:23.319 went to see thee monitoring. 0:46:23.760 --> 0:46:26.719 Lynn was the ICU charged nurse leading a team of 0:46:26.760 --> 0:46:30.479 medical professionals at a Level one trauma center, including Robert 0:46:30.560 --> 0:46:33.720 Fisher when he worked the night shift. She remembers Robert 0:46:33.760 --> 0:46:36.879 as respectful and kind a quote really great guy. 0:46:37.239 --> 0:46:41.000 We used to do. He was kind of an exercise junkie, 0:46:41.200 --> 0:46:44.560 so we used to on slow nights, we used to 0:46:44.600 --> 0:46:48.839 do the stairs. We'd get in the stairwell and run 0:46:48.920 --> 0:46:54.200 up and down the stairs, just the pastime, you know. 0:46:55.080 --> 0:46:58.279 He used to brag about how and I never knew 0:46:58.320 --> 0:47:00.800 whether it was true or not. How he had trained 0:47:00.800 --> 0:47:02.920 to be a Navy seal, and so he had all 0:47:02.920 --> 0:47:07.120 these mad survival skills and all this great fitness and stuff. 0:47:07.120 --> 0:47:09.840 And you know, looking at him, you'd say, yeah, I 0:47:09.880 --> 0:47:12.600 could see that, because it was clear that he worked. 0:47:12.400 --> 0:47:12.880 Out a lot. 0:47:13.480 --> 0:47:17.880 T Lynn Robert was normal, bland, even vanilla. Nothing stands 0:47:17.880 --> 0:47:19.440 out with one exception. 0:47:19.920 --> 0:47:22.280 He worked in surgery with my husband. 0:47:22.080 --> 0:47:24.320 Richard Mashorn, a heart surgeon. 0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:27.799 And he knew that my husband had been a had 0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:30.840 originally studied to be a Lutheran minister before he became 0:47:30.840 --> 0:47:36.319 a surgeon, and so he my husband commented to me 0:47:36.440 --> 0:47:40.920 that one day he was talking to him and he said, so, 0:47:41.800 --> 0:47:46.759 doctor Mashorn, and I'm paraphrasing this because I can't exactly 0:47:46.840 --> 0:47:51.000 remember how he phrased the question, but it struck my 0:47:51.080 --> 0:47:55.600 husband as odd, something about is killing someone always a 0:47:55.680 --> 0:48:01.040 sin in the eyes of God? And you know, this 0:48:01.239 --> 0:48:05.160 was prior to anything happening, So my husband only recalled 0:48:05.160 --> 0:48:09.880 it after the incident because then it struck him as weird. 0:48:11.040 --> 0:48:14.279 And then another thing I remember is that, and I'm 0:48:14.360 --> 0:48:18.640 going to say this was within a year of the incident, 0:48:19.440 --> 0:48:26.279 I was hiking camelback mountains from the Echo Canyon side, 0:48:26.320 --> 0:48:31.920 which is the east side, and I was coming down 0:48:32.960 --> 0:48:36.440 and he was coming up. Now this was after he 0:48:36.600 --> 0:48:41.480 was supposedly gone and missing, but he was hiking up 0:48:41.520 --> 0:48:45.160 and he was alone, and as soon as we locked eyes, 0:48:45.800 --> 0:48:48.719 he turned around and ran, not down the trail, but 0:48:48.840 --> 0:48:56.000 ran cross country down hill. And so this was before. 0:48:56.680 --> 0:48:58.440 I mean, I didn't have a cell phone or anything. 0:48:58.600 --> 0:49:01.880 So I think I called the police when I got home. 0:49:02.840 --> 0:49:07.360 But yeah, I'm sure there's no record of that, and 0:49:07.440 --> 0:49:09.560 it was too late, you know, he was long gone. 0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:17.640 I'm sure this. Yeah, it was after. It was probably 0:49:17.680 --> 0:49:21.560 within a year year and a half after, so he 0:49:21.680 --> 0:49:23.920 was back in the valley at some point. 0:49:25.200 --> 0:49:27.040 How confident are you that it was him? 0:49:28.440 --> 0:49:34.480 We locked eyes and he bolted. So we worked together 0:49:34.600 --> 0:49:36.520 long enough to know each other. 0:49:39.680 --> 0:49:42.799 Do you remember what time of year it was? No? 0:49:44.920 --> 0:49:46.920 So and then so? Were you by yourself or were 0:49:46.920 --> 0:49:47.879 you with anyone at the time? 0:49:47.920 --> 0:49:49.640 Well? I was with my husband. 0:49:51.280 --> 0:49:53.080 Does he remember this as well? 0:49:53.920 --> 0:49:54.280 Yes? 0:49:56.760 --> 0:49:59.280 So you said you called the police. Do you remember 0:49:59.400 --> 0:50:01.040 did you call Scot Sale or did you call it 0:50:01.120 --> 0:50:02.120 different police department? 0:50:02.560 --> 0:50:07.000 I have no recollection of who I called or if 0:50:07.040 --> 0:50:10.400 I really did I can't remember for sure. 0:50:13.360 --> 0:50:15.080 If you didn't, do you know why you would not 0:50:15.160 --> 0:50:15.600 have called. 0:50:17.080 --> 0:50:20.080 There might have been a tip line or something that 0:50:20.200 --> 0:50:26.840 I reported to. I'm just not sure. Sorry, long time ago. 0:50:27.520 --> 0:50:29.920 Yeah, no worries. So you can you tell me? Do 0:50:29.920 --> 0:50:31.680 you mind telling me the whole story again, just from 0:50:31.719 --> 0:50:33.560 the beginning, kind of you kind of caught me off guard. 0:50:36.080 --> 0:50:40.320 My husband I were hiking Camelback Mountain on the east 0:50:40.400 --> 0:50:44.440 side and we were coming down. I was ahead of 0:50:44.480 --> 0:50:50.640 my husband and Bob Fisher was coming up and he 0:50:50.719 --> 0:50:54.000 saw me, and I saw him, and he turned around 0:50:54.360 --> 0:50:59.840 and bolted downhill, cross country, downhill, not on the trail, 0:51:01.280 --> 0:51:07.120 and ran very fast. He's a great athlete and on 0:51:07.160 --> 0:51:07.840 a scale. 0:51:08.320 --> 0:51:12.560 And how sure you that it was I was. 0:51:13.080 --> 0:51:19.040 I'm ninety five percent sure it was him. 0:51:19.160 --> 0:51:20.960 And so I mean you work with him for over 0:51:21.200 --> 0:51:25.600 a decade, right, yeah, I did. So you saw him 0:51:25.640 --> 0:51:26.920 a lot. I mean, it's not like you saw him 0:51:26.920 --> 0:51:29.000 as some times. You were very familiar with what you 0:51:29.040 --> 0:51:35.839 looked like, right, do you so to your recollection, did 0:51:35.840 --> 0:51:38.160 you definitely phone that in or do you are you 0:51:38.239 --> 0:51:41.280 not sure if you called the type end I'm not sure. 0:51:46.200 --> 0:51:50.239 H Well, that is very interesting. Have you shared that 0:51:50.280 --> 0:51:51.640 with anybody in the years since? 0:51:53.480 --> 0:51:56.000 Yeah? 0:51:56.480 --> 0:51:56.759 Have you? 0:51:57.400 --> 0:51:59.799 Have you been contacted or interviewed by law enforcement? Ever? 0:52:00.680 --> 0:52:05.680 No, That's why I'm not sure. If I called it in, 0:52:06.880 --> 0:52:10.839 to be honest, I might have gotten home and thought, well, 0:52:10.840 --> 0:52:16.440 it's too late now he's long gone. Sorry, I can't remember. 0:52:17.800 --> 0:52:24.160 No, no worries. M Do you remember what he was wearing? 0:52:25.520 --> 0:52:30.960 A ball cap and a T shirt and shorts. That's 0:52:30.960 --> 0:52:37.560 all I remember. Ah, he didn't have much hair, so 0:52:37.640 --> 0:52:39.399 he always wore a ball cap. 0:52:41.680 --> 0:52:43.960 And your your husband saw him? Did your husband also 0:52:44.000 --> 0:52:45.440 recognize him as Robert Fusher? 0:52:46.480 --> 0:52:47.319 He says he did? 0:52:47.680 --> 0:52:50.000 What did he possible for me to speak to your husband? 0:52:50.040 --> 0:52:51.240 At some point? 0:52:51.440 --> 0:52:53.560 It would not he's passed away. 0:52:54.960 --> 0:52:57.160 Oh man, I'm sorry. When did? When did he pass? 0:52:58.400 --> 0:53:06.839 April of us here, I'm sorry to hear that me too. 0:53:07.160 --> 0:53:10.120 Richard died only nine days before I got to Phoenix 0:53:10.160 --> 0:53:13.920 to report this story to recap. Lynn Mashorn and I 0:53:14.040 --> 0:53:16.560 see you. Nurse who worked with Robert Fisher for a decade, 0:53:16.760 --> 0:53:19.560 says she and her husband ran into Fisher while hiking 0:53:19.560 --> 0:53:23.359 Camelback Mountain in two thousand and two. Intriguing, But I've 0:53:23.360 --> 0:53:26.319 heard something like this a half dozen times, people who 0:53:26.400 --> 0:53:30.840 knew Fisher swearing they saw him. Law enforcement investigated those leads. 0:53:31.160 --> 0:53:35.600 It was never him. This is different. Why because of 0:53:35.640 --> 0:53:40.040 the man's reaction, There are only three options. One Lynn 0:53:40.080 --> 0:53:43.279 is lying. I don't think so. I believe her. She 0:53:43.360 --> 0:53:47.760 knew Fisher well and never sought media attention. Two Lynn 0:53:47.760 --> 0:53:51.240 saw someone who looked like Fisher but wasn't. This doesn't 0:53:51.280 --> 0:53:54.440 make sense. Why would he lock eyes with her panic 0:53:54.640 --> 0:53:57.080 and run down the side of a mountain so rapidly 0:53:57.200 --> 0:54:01.120 he didn't even take a trail unless three when actually 0:54:01.160 --> 0:54:05.200 saw Robert Fisher. This is what I believe, because again, 0:54:05.400 --> 0:54:06.400 of the man's reaction. 0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:09.480 I thought at the time it was awfully cavalier of 0:54:09.560 --> 0:54:13.560 him to show his face in public like that, even 0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:16.680 though you know chances are that you'd get recognized and 0:54:16.760 --> 0:54:20.240 something like that. It's pretty slim, but it happened. 0:54:21.880 --> 0:54:24.759 And I apologize to push on details. But do you 0:54:24.840 --> 0:54:26.920 you don't remember what time of year, what season or 0:54:26.960 --> 0:54:31.480 anything it was? I do not, Nope, And do you 0:54:31.560 --> 0:54:35.160 mind telling me one more time exactly where you came 0:54:35.239 --> 0:54:36.600 up and where this occurb. 0:54:38.200 --> 0:54:43.440 The east side of Camelback Mountain is called Echo Canyon. Side, 0:54:44.040 --> 0:54:47.680 So I was coming down and it was probably in 0:54:47.760 --> 0:54:50.080 the lower quarter he was coming up. 0:54:50.400 --> 0:54:52.520 And so when you ran into him the east side 0:54:52.520 --> 0:54:54.880 of Camelback Mountain, just to I just want to make 0:54:54.880 --> 0:54:58.320 sure I'm one hundred percent certain this was after the 0:54:58.400 --> 0:55:03.600 murders occurb. Yes, And so when you saw him, how 0:55:03.640 --> 0:55:07.080 long did it take for you to recognize him instantly? 0:55:11.840 --> 0:55:14.640 And I was assured it was him when he turned 0:55:14.640 --> 0:55:15.319 around and ran? 0:55:17.320 --> 0:55:20.759 How quickly did he run immediately as soon as we 0:55:21.239 --> 0:55:24.440 locked eyes? Has anybody ever interviewed you before, either media 0:55:24.560 --> 0:55:28.960 or law enforcement? No, this is the first time anybody 0:55:29.239 --> 0:55:30.600 has asked you about him. 0:55:31.440 --> 0:55:31.720 Yep. 0:55:33.000 --> 0:55:34.040 Does that surprise you. 0:55:37.640 --> 0:55:45.040 Yes, because you think that you'd think that the police 0:55:45.040 --> 0:55:50.080 would have interviewed everyone who worked with him, and clearly 0:55:50.120 --> 0:55:52.680 they did not, because none of my friends have been 0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:56.759 interviewed unless there's somebody you spoke to, But none of 0:55:56.760 --> 0:55:59.239 the people who I know who've worked with him have 0:55:59.400 --> 0:56:01.400 ever been contacted by the police. 0:56:01.680 --> 0:56:04.839 When you saw him on Camelback Mountain, how long did 0:56:04.880 --> 0:56:11.080 you lock eyes with him? Momentarily and then he literally 0:56:11.120 --> 0:56:16.200 turned and ran. Yes, and he ran down the mountain. 0:56:17.120 --> 0:56:21.120 Yeah, not on the trail, though he ran cross country, 0:56:21.719 --> 0:56:25.120 down the mountain, down the hillside. 0:56:25.600 --> 0:56:27.600 How long after that were you able to see him 0:56:27.640 --> 0:56:29.680 before he vanished out of your high line? 0:56:29.800 --> 0:56:29.920 Hi? 0:56:30.000 --> 0:56:38.120 Fight a minute two, So you see him. I turned 0:56:38.160 --> 0:56:40.759 around and went back up to where my husband was 0:56:41.920 --> 0:56:45.840 to see if he had seen him, and he said, yeah, 0:56:46.560 --> 0:56:51.160 I thought that was him. 0:56:51.200 --> 0:56:55.600 So you were a little bit further down from your husband, yes, 0:56:56.400 --> 0:56:58.240 And you mentioned what he was wearing. Do you remember 0:56:58.280 --> 0:57:02.640 any other details? No? Did he have any equipment with him, like. 0:57:02.640 --> 0:57:05.239 A backpack, it's possible. 0:57:06.840 --> 0:57:08.000 Did he have a dog with him? 0:57:08.880 --> 0:57:15.360 No, he did not. There's no dogs allowed on that side, gotcha, 0:57:15.480 --> 0:57:17.240 there weren't. There weren't at the time. 0:57:18.760 --> 0:57:21.880 And how far from wherever you parked. How far of 0:57:21.880 --> 0:57:23.560 a hike had it been for you to get where 0:57:23.560 --> 0:57:23.919 you were? 0:57:24.880 --> 0:57:28.360 Quite a way? Well, like I said, we were coming down, 0:57:29.120 --> 0:57:32.400 so we had been up and were coming down, and 0:57:32.440 --> 0:57:35.240 we were probably three quarters of the way down, so 0:57:35.320 --> 0:57:39.800 it was another half mile back to the car at least. 0:57:44.240 --> 0:57:47.640 That's This is just fascinating to me because you know, 0:57:48.000 --> 0:57:50.160 there have been a million leads over the years, and 0:57:50.680 --> 0:57:53.280 including multiple co workers who thought they saw him. But 0:57:53.880 --> 0:57:56.880 it's very different if you'd think you see him any runs. 0:57:57.440 --> 0:57:59.920 I mean, yeah, well. 0:57:59.800 --> 0:58:04.080 That was what you know, It's that momentary, Hey, I 0:58:04.120 --> 0:58:08.080 think you're you. And as soon as he turned and ran, 0:58:08.200 --> 0:58:12.560 I was like, then I was sure. And we were 0:58:12.600 --> 0:58:17.400 probably twenty feet apart, you. 0:58:17.360 --> 0:58:20.040 Know, so he was Was he coming up at that point? 0:58:20.200 --> 0:58:24.280 He was, Yeah, he was coming up. So it couldn't 0:58:24.280 --> 0:58:26.280 have been in It couldn't have been in the dead 0:58:26.280 --> 0:58:28.880 of summer because he would have been starting way too late. 0:58:29.920 --> 0:58:33.120 So it was probably in one of the shoulder seasons. 0:58:36.280 --> 0:58:39.320 That's and this is very fascinating to me. Well, hey, 0:58:39.400 --> 0:58:42.240 I really appreciate you speaking with me. This is this 0:58:42.280 --> 0:58:43.920 is why I reach out to everybody, because you never 0:58:43.960 --> 0:58:44.800 know what you're going to hear. 0:58:46.000 --> 0:58:48.880 And so this saga ends for now, but it also 0:58:49.040 --> 0:58:53.080 begins on Camelback Mountain. Before we go, let me say 0:58:53.080 --> 0:58:56.600 a few things Mary, Brittany, and Bobby I know, in 0:58:56.600 --> 0:58:59.600 some small way in this moment, I've been your voice. 0:59:00.080 --> 0:59:03.480 I hope I've done you justice. To law enforcement, I've 0:59:03.560 --> 0:59:07.160 dug up new information, please act on it. To everyone 0:59:07.200 --> 0:59:11.160 who spoke with us, I appreciate you. To our team, 0:59:11.280 --> 0:59:14.560 especially Paul Deckan, Ben Bowen, and Chris Brown, thank you 0:59:14.600 --> 0:59:18.080 for pouring your hearts into this show alongside me. To 0:59:18.160 --> 0:59:21.560 our audience, please go to Neon thirty three dot com 0:59:21.600 --> 0:59:25.640 share the wanted poster. Did Robert Fisher live past April 0:59:25.680 --> 0:59:37.040 two thousand and one? Yes, now let's find him when 0:59:37.280 --> 0:59:48.960 you come in a crime. 0:59:47.320 --> 0:59:49.040 Where Essie. 0:59:51.240 --> 0:59:52.360 That is out. 0:59:53.800 --> 0:59:55.320 There guns inside. 0:59:57.400 --> 1:00:05.800 If you begin to saw well, chat our. 1:00:09.240 --> 1:00:16.240 Film seriously, you can restless though. 1:00:21.640 --> 1:00:47.520 A landa all. You can reach us by phone at 1:00:47.560 --> 1:00:51.040 one eight three three new tips that's one eight three 1:00:51.120 --> 1:00:54.880 three six three nine eight four seven seven by email 1:00:55.040 --> 1:00:58.400 at tips at iHeartMedia dot com, t I p s 1:00:58.480 --> 1:01:02.640 at iHeartMedia dot com, online at Neon thirty three dot com, 1:01:02.760 --> 1:01:08.280 or on Twitter at John Wallzac, Jo n Wa l Czak. 1:01:09.000 --> 1:01:11.800 Paul Ducan is our executive producer, Chris Brown is our 1:01:11.840 --> 1:01:15.640 supervising producer. Hannah Rose Snyder is our producer. Paul Gemberlin 1:01:15.800 --> 1:01:18.680 is our researcher, Ben Bolan is a consulting producer, and 1:01:18.760 --> 1:01:22.560 I'm your host and executive producer John Wallzac. Additional production 1:01:22.640 --> 1:01:26.000 support provided by Ben Hackett. Cover art by Pam Peacock. 1:01:26.240 --> 1:01:29.400 Neon thirty three logo designed by Derek Rudy. Our intro 1:01:29.520 --> 1:01:32.840 song is Utopia by ruby Cube. Please download the first 1:01:32.840 --> 1:01:36.040 two seasons of our show, Missing in Alaska and Missing 1:01:36.040 --> 1:01:38.640 on nine to eleven, and if you're so inclined, give 1:01:38.720 --> 1:01:41.240 us a five star rating. Missing in Arizona is a 1:01:41.280 --> 1:01:45.160 co production of iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three. Our intro 1:01:45.320 --> 1:01:50.880 song is Cuyahoga Canal by the Taxpayers