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Speaker 1: Did Robert Fisher live past April two thousand and one. Yes.

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Speaker 1: From iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three. I'm John Walzac and

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Speaker 1: this is Missing in Arizona, the story of a man

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Speaker 1: who disappeared after allegedly killing his wife and kids, blowing

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Speaker 1: up their suburban home, and escaping into the wilderness. Twenty

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Speaker 1: three years later, I'm hunting Robert Fisher and I need

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Speaker 1: your help. Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence

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Speaker 1: and may not be suitable for all listeners.

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Speaker 2: Phoenix, Arizona, Friday, December the eleventh, two forty three PM.

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Speaker 1: Psycho nineteen sixty Hitchcock Panza camera across the Phoenix skyline

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Speaker 1: credits dissolve into a black and white horizon. An ancient

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Speaker 1: mountain looms in the distance, Camelback Mountain.

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Speaker 2: Phoenix, Arizona, two thousand and two.

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Speaker 1: And there on the mountain is Robert Fisher Alive?

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Speaker 2: The reaction Part one.

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Speaker 1: Let's circle back to episode fifteen. I told you about

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Speaker 1: a person of interest. Tony Police got a lead that

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Speaker 1: he helped Fisher before, during, and or after the murders.

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Speaker 1: They interviewed him. He was nervous, breathing, heavily. Do you

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Speaker 1: recognize the name Robert Fisher? No, he said, the guy

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Speaker 1: who killed his family went to your church, blew up

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Speaker 1: his house. Your wife knew his escaped, Your kids were

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Speaker 1: friends FBI's ten most Wanted list. Ah, yes him. This

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Speaker 1: is what gets me. The reaction Tony claiming not to

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Speaker 1: recognize the name Robert Fisher. Scottsdale Lieutenant Hugh Lockerby, and

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Speaker 1: former FBI agent Bob Caldwell, who interviewed him think he lied.

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Speaker 1: So do I, which begs the question why why lie?

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Speaker 1: Unless you have something to hide. I want to speak

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Speaker 1: to Tony in person, look him in the eyes. So in

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Speaker 1: late twenty twenty three, I show up at his house

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Speaker 1: unannounced with our producer Paul Deckett. The door swings open.

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Speaker 1: Tony's a big guy. I'm not. His wife and kids

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Speaker 1: accused him of abuse. He's a person of interest in

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Speaker 1: a triple homicide. I worry he'll fly into a rage,

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Speaker 1: punch me, choke me worse. I side I escape routes

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Speaker 1: and start asking questions. Tony speaks and shockingly doesn't stop

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Speaker 1: for nearly twenty minutes. We're gonna play the whole interview.

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Speaker 1: We disguised Tony's voice and bleeped personal details, but otherwise

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Speaker 1: it's unedited. Pay close attention not only to what he says,

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Speaker 1: but how he says it, his reaction. Hey, please, who

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Speaker 1: I'm My name is John Walzach. I'm an investigative journalist

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Speaker 1: in researching the case, and I was wondering if I

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Speaker 1: could speak to you about Robert Fisher.

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Speaker 3: You know, I I've talked to the FBI years ago

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Speaker 3: about that whole thing. I don't want I don't have

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Speaker 3: any information on that.

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Speaker 1: Is it okay? If I can I speak to.

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Speaker 3: Or I don't want to talk about it. I don't

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Speaker 3: want to deal with that anymore, is all right? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Can I ask you any questions.

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Speaker 3: You can ask? I don't have any information. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Did you know Robert Fisher at all?

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Speaker 3: He went to the same church and I went to

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Speaker 3: That's about it, and my kids played with his kids

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Speaker 3: in the church there. When I got divorced, my ex

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Speaker 3: wife said a bunch of stuff about me being friends

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Speaker 3: with him or whatever, And then so the FBI talked

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Speaker 3: to me about it, and I'm like, I don't know

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Speaker 3: the guy really, So it gives me anxiety just to

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Speaker 3: think about it. Because it's more about my ex wife

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Speaker 3: and the trauma that or the stuff that she stirred

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Speaker 3: up with at that was just vindictive.

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Speaker 1: So so you you didn't know him at all.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't pick him out if I saw him. I wouldn't.

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Speaker 3: I don't even remember ever talking to him any of that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I'm reaching out to basically everybody who I

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Speaker 1: possibly can, but your name came up, so I wanted

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Speaker 1: to reach out and speak to you.

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Speaker 3: You know, I appreciate it, But like I told the

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Speaker 3: FBI back then, I don't have any information. I don't

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Speaker 3: know other than what probably what I remember reading and

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Speaker 3: hearing what had happened, not necessarily knowing him or anything

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Speaker 3: prior to that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when they showed up, because I got the memo

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Speaker 1: that they wrote after they spoke with you, what was

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Speaker 1: your I mean, what do you think when they showed up?

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Speaker 1: Like why are they here asking me about that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Like it was very bizarre, just like you guys

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Speaker 3: coming up here, Like Okay, what do I have to

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Speaker 3: do with any of this? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Did you have any idea why they were there or

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Speaker 1: did you assume somebody said something or I know the

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Speaker 1: f guy well, like like some that somebody told them something.

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Speaker 3: Or Yeah, that's what I felt like, like somebody said

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Speaker 3: said something. And as soon as I brought up my

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Speaker 3: ex wife, the FBA stopped. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: How long did they interview you?

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Speaker 3: For? Just a couple of weeks. I think we went,

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Speaker 3: they came that, they came to my work, and then

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Speaker 3: I went down and I met with them and talked

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Speaker 3: through a bunch of stuff. They wanted me to do

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Speaker 3: a light detective test and I'm like at that point,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm done. I don't have anything to contribute.

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Speaker 3: You guys are you know? Yeah, basically wasting more time

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Speaker 3: with me, And it was just one of those that

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Speaker 3: I felt like it was more my ex wife just

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Speaker 3: trying to cause problems in my life. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that's because your ex wife knew meryor

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Speaker 1: because you guys went to the same church that because

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Speaker 1: she knew Mary.

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Speaker 3: And I don't even know how much she knew.

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Speaker 1: Mary when they came and asked you. So their memo

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Speaker 1: says that when they came and asked you.

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Speaker 3: Have a card or anything I have, I can give

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Speaker 3: you a personal card.

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Speaker 1: So that's so I'm an investigator journalist out of Pittsburgh.

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Speaker 1: I'm here working on this story. Paul works for iHeart Media.

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Speaker 1: We're working on an audio documentary on the Fisher case.

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Speaker 1: So but I've spent about ten months researching it. So

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Speaker 1: I'm tracking down everything that I can. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: and you know, full disclosure, I have the memo that

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Speaker 1: they wrote after they spoke to you, so.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they obviously let it go, so I but

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to not attempt to that. So that's interesting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when when they spoke to you and they asked you

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Speaker 1: if you knew who Robert Fisher was, the memo says

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Speaker 1: that you said you didn't recognize the name Robert Fisher.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. When they said to the person, I'm like, who's

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Speaker 3: Robert Fisher? I know Fisher that I worked with, and

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Speaker 3: I was kind of like, oh is it is it

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Speaker 3: something to do with with work?

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Speaker 1: But you didn't recognize even even though you guys went

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Speaker 1: to the same church and he was accused of somebody

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Speaker 1: who was accused of you didn't recognize his name.

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Speaker 3: No, No, it was because it was such a remote

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Speaker 3: thing for me, like I don't know who this guy

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Speaker 3: really is. Yeah, it was a very traumatic time.

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Speaker 4: At the church.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. Do you remember what year?

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Speaker 1: Did do you stop going to the church at some point?

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Speaker 1: I think what year that was, because this was two

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Speaker 1: thousand and one that this happened.

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Speaker 3: I was already not going to the church then, I believe, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: got two thousand and one would have been Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: would have not I know him in the church.

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Speaker 1: Then, So when they spoke to you and asked you

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Speaker 1: if you would take a light detector test, did you

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Speaker 1: decline the light detector test?

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Speaker 3: Just like, I don't want to deal with this because

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I've never taken a light

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Speaker 3: of detector's test before, and like, what is it gonna?

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Speaker 3: What is it gonna do? I mean, I had nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So so i'man I have to flat out ask you,

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Speaker 1: did you ever meet Robert Fitcher? Did you know him

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Speaker 1: at all?

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Speaker 3: I may have passed him in the church, but like

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Speaker 3: I said, I would not know him if I saw

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Speaker 3: him probably that wouldn't have known him by name. I

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Speaker 3: wasn't affiliated with him in any way, so other than

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Speaker 3: going attending the same church.

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Speaker 1: So you know, the FBI in the Scotstco Police apartment

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Speaker 1: saw your employment records. I don't know if you knew

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Speaker 1: that for April two thousand and one. Do you remember

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Speaker 1: where you were when that event? Dah, absolutely, because it

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Speaker 1: was it was not very pleasant.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I was out doing there's a project manager owned

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Speaker 3: project out there, and they came in showing their badges

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Speaker 3: and I was in the middle of a meeting. Very embarrassing. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So they interviewed you at work and then you

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Speaker 1: did you go down to the scottscol Police apartment.

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Speaker 3: I went down to downtown. It was like this really

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Speaker 3: undis descript building down like on Third Avenue downtown somewhere.

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Speaker 1: If you remember, do you do you mind if I

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Speaker 1: read you part of the memo that they wrote.

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Speaker 3: And asked go ahead? Is that our fact?

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Speaker 1: So says we next interviewed about his knowledge of Robert Fisher.

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Speaker 1: At first, when we asked her if he knew Robert Fisher,

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Speaker 1: he stated he did not recognize the name, and then

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Speaker 1: they went on to explain what happened, and essentially, more

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Speaker 1: or less, they noticed that during the interview with he

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Speaker 1: appeared to be very nervous and was breathing heavily. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember how you felt like when they showed.

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Speaker 3: Up or kind of like I do right now, just

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Speaker 3: like understandable. I don't. I don't want to tell anybody

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Speaker 3: about that. It just feels like I'm being interrogated over

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Speaker 3: something that I had nothing involved with him. Well, when

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Speaker 3: I brought up my ex wife and the divorce and

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Speaker 3: all that stuff that she and I went through, and

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Speaker 3: the vindictive stuff that went on that fit the bill before,

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Speaker 3: the things that she would try to do, like try

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Speaker 3: to pin me on something that was around.

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Speaker 1: You don't think it. You think it was your ex

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Speaker 1: wife who spoke.

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Speaker 3: To the I don't know. It's just that's what it

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Speaker 3: felt like, and that's what I told him.

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Speaker 1: So I have some I got I got it from records,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know if somebody like for some reason

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Speaker 1: sets I know that you know, and you're obviously they

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Speaker 1: talked to a ton of people, so I know you're

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Speaker 1: not the only person that they want, and they spoke

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Speaker 1: to probably dozens or hundreds of people. So is there

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Speaker 1: How how long were you about the church for you

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Speaker 1: left be four two thousand moths that happening.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't remember how many years you went. There

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Speaker 3: was a big church.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but do you they said that you recalled once

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Speaker 5: they started speaking to you, that your wife, your ex wife,

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Speaker 5: knew Mary, and that your kids knew the Fisher.

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Speaker 3: Kids they went to the same they didn't. They knew

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Speaker 3: them from church, going to the Sunday school and the

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Speaker 3: same Sunday school classes. And they may have I don't

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Speaker 3: know if they did any field trips or anything from

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Speaker 3: a church standpoint within.

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Speaker 2: Them or not.

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Speaker 3: They never played with them outside.

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Speaker 1: Of church, But I was the world did did do

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Speaker 1: you know later on? Like afterwards, did any of them

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Speaker 1: metual friends like like the Rodents, like Jim Roden or

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Speaker 1: the pastor Cantelmo, Like, did did you know any of

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Speaker 1: those people like that were friends with the Fishers?

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Speaker 3: The name as you mentioned the names, I kind of

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Speaker 3: remember the names now, but I honestly couldn't remember who

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Speaker 3: who was friends with who? And who did what who

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Speaker 3: at the church?

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Speaker 1: Are you? I appreciate you answer answering. I apologize as

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Speaker 1: to show up, but I mean you understand if I

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Speaker 1: see see you know your name.

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Speaker 3: And the memo, why would be curious? It's okay?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, go like.

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Speaker 6: When all that happened with Robert Fisher, like I imagine

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Speaker 6: like it was a crazy thing to hear about right,

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Speaker 6: Like do you remember like.

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Speaker 3: When you said about what happened, like it was a

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Speaker 3: horrible act about Yeah, I mean anybody and the fact

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Speaker 3: that nobody's ever found him that's disturbing.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you think, is this living in the woods somewhere?

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Speaker 3: Do you think he like? You know, I can't even specially,

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Speaker 3: I mean I've heard a lot of different things. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I don't know enough about him to say whether I

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Speaker 3: could even say that he's he's a good survivalist or whatever,

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Speaker 3: other than what I've heard the news and what you

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Speaker 3: guys have done the reporters have put out.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever been approached by a journalist? Or are

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Speaker 1: we the first? You're the first, So I apologize that

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Speaker 1: I know this is probably jarring for you, but it

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Speaker 1: has been years since a lot of time. So when

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Speaker 1: they when they I know they were at your work,

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Speaker 1: but they also you said they brought you down to

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Speaker 1: the to the f guy office or does this gousshill police?

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Speaker 3: They asked me to come down there and that I

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Speaker 3: met with him later. I didn't leave work and go

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Speaker 3: with at that point, gotcha, I took their card and

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Speaker 3: then probably I don't even if I still had their

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Speaker 3: information around. But I was in the middle of custody,

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Speaker 3: divorced stuff and all that going on, So it wasn't

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Speaker 3: it wasn't. I mean, it wasn't easy to deal with

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Speaker 3: that on top of all the other stuff too.

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Speaker 1: So if they so they were seeking your employment records,

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Speaker 1: if would your employment records show that you were at

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Speaker 1: work in all of April two thousand and one or

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Speaker 1: is there any chance that you took Basically it would

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Speaker 1: back up your story, like, is there any chance you

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Speaker 1: took time off around the time that all this happened,

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Speaker 1: which would have been like mid April two thousand and one.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't even know if it correlated with that or not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if they asked for your work records,

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Speaker 1: would you be willing to grant them access to your

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Speaker 1: work records?

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't have had I probably wouldn't have. They would

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Speaker 3: probably have the subpoenaform. I don't know. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 3: don't know how they got my work records or they

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Speaker 3: that they had them.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that they actually got access to it.

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Speaker 1: I think that they sought them, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: that gave it to them. But I'm saying that if

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Speaker 1: they were to ask you if somebody asked you today,

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Speaker 1: if they asked for like, if they had your permission

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Speaker 1: to obtain your work records from April two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: would they.

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Speaker 3: Would I don't know what I would do on that

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Speaker 3: that I want to think I'd probably want to talk to,

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Speaker 3: you know, professional for some advice on how to handle that,

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Speaker 3: because like this, it just goes way beyond helping in

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Speaker 3: AH in a case like that, as opposed to feeling

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Speaker 3: like now I am being looked at it for some reason.

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Speaker 1: If your if your work records from April two thousand

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Speaker 1: and one didn't show anything suspicious, why would you be

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Speaker 1: concerned about them obtaining your work records?

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Speaker 3: That's an interesting question, But I, like I just said,

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Speaker 3: it turns it as being why would they want them

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Speaker 3: if they're not just wanting my help? Yeah, if they'm

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Speaker 3: trying to look at something that I did in that

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Speaker 3: whole thing, and I have to prove myself. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: I know that I had nothing to do with it,

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Speaker 3: but that's a whole different animal. Yeah, And that's where

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Speaker 3: I think that if it goes there, I would probably

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Speaker 3: have to get an attorney. And the same with the

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Speaker 3: lie detector test.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like if you did it it would

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Speaker 1: just basically help the because obviously they're suspicious. I think

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Speaker 1: they're suspicious that somehow they're suspicious of people who possibly

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Speaker 1: assisted but were not directly involved with Robert Fisher. And

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Speaker 1: I know that they were suspicious of you obviously, that's

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Speaker 1: why they spoke to you. So I think what I

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Speaker 1: would say is I know on their end like they

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Speaker 1: care about finding him.

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Speaker 3: They don't. If I had the information, yeah, I would

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Speaker 3: give it to him. He'll get the guy. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I don't have any information. I don't know him. I

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Speaker 3: wishould do it. I wish I could help, But to

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Speaker 3: go through all that other stuff, all that does is

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Speaker 3: put expense on me and angst on me, and for

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Speaker 3: what Yeah? Yeah, So.

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Speaker 1: In April two thousand and one, do you so, Paul,

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Speaker 1: We've asked like it you remember when the event occurred,

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Speaker 1: but do you remember that day? Were you at work

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Speaker 1: that day? April tenth?

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Speaker 3: I couldn't tell you where I was that day?

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Speaker 1: Do you remember the aftermath of it? Like did you

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Speaker 1: go to the church, do you go to any of

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Speaker 1: the memorial stuff where you involved in anything like that?

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Speaker 1: Do you remember ever meeting Mary Fisher or the kids.

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Speaker 3: I think I remember meeting her outside in the breezeway

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Speaker 3: when the kids were going in and out of from

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Speaker 3: Sunday school to church and whatnot, and that would be it.

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Speaker 1: So, but when this happened, you told them that you

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Speaker 1: did not recognize the name Robert Fisher. Like, even like

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Speaker 1: sculls Sill is a very peaceful, calm suburb, how did

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Speaker 1: you not recognize saying Robert Fisher?

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Speaker 3: Because I live in scott Steal and I only went

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Speaker 3: to the church and he attended the church when there

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Speaker 3: were five hundred people that went there. Yeah, So to

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Speaker 3: throw out a name and like I don't know who that.

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Speaker 1: Is, yeah, that's fair. So in two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: do you mind me asking in April two thousand and

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Speaker 1: one what vehicle you were driving?

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Speaker 3: So we had a minivan. I think I had a

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Speaker 3: I had four truck. That's right, my X had the minivan.

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Speaker 3: I had a truck.

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Speaker 1: What color was the truck?

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Speaker 3: It's like a teal. I believe I think that was

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Speaker 3: the one that I had.

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Speaker 1: Did you were you? Have you ever been up to

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Speaker 1: the area around young where they found the fore Runner.

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Speaker 3: I've been in that area when I had camped with

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Speaker 3: my well, my kids think. I don't know the exact

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Speaker 3: area though, but I've been on.

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Speaker 1: That up in the like off Young Highway, Like it's

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Speaker 1: north just north Intotween when you come off of what

342
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Speaker 1: is it to sixty from Pacin and then down to Young.

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Speaker 3: It's in between that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, area, it's a very common camping area. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course. And I mean it's the main road going

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Speaker 1: down through Young. But what was what was your reaction

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Speaker 1: when they showed up? I mean you must have been.

348
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Speaker 1: Were you confused?

349
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Speaker 3: Why?

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Speaker 1: Like why are these why are these guys showing up

351
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Speaker 1: at my work?

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Speaker 3: Before? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I was.

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Speaker 3: It was very disturbing and embarrassing, like, Okay, why why

355
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Speaker 3: am I being looked at? And I've got to I've

356
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Speaker 3: got a meaning and i am the one in charge,

357
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Speaker 3: and now I've got FBI with badges pulling me aside

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Speaker 3: to talk to me.

359
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Speaker 1: Do you feel were you concerned about like how that

360
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Speaker 1: may appear to your.

361
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:55,800
Speaker 3: Coworkers or is that.

362
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Speaker 1: Do you feel like they did that on purpose showing

363
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Speaker 1: up at your job.

364
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Speaker 3: I don't know how they do their investigations. I mean

365
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,640
Speaker 3: kind of like you guys show them up here. Yeah,

366
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Speaker 3: I mean, how do I feel that you're showing up

367
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 3: at my house? Yeah, I don't like it because I

368
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:16,640
Speaker 3: have nothing to do with it.

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Speaker 1: So to be clear, if they asked today either for

370
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Speaker 1: your work workers at April two thousand one or for

371
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Speaker 1: you to take.

372
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Speaker 3: A while, okay, so, and you are with.

373
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Speaker 1: So, I'm independent, but we're working on an audio project

374
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Speaker 1: for iHeart.

375
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Speaker 3: I don't have anything to do with that. Can I

376
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Speaker 3: Can I ask you one more question my patience has

377
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Speaker 3: done with yes.

378
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Speaker 1: So obviously what they suspected is that you in some

379
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,840
Speaker 1: way assisted Barbaria Fisher after or daring what happened? Is

380
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 1: that true or false?

381
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,479
Speaker 3: Absolutely not? And if you keep asking me this, I'm

382
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Speaker 3: going to call the police and have you removed from

383
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Speaker 3: my property. So please leave.

384
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Speaker 1: Okay, thank you appreciate it. Thanks Paul, and I hustle

385
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,360
Speaker 1: back to the car. The other Paul Gemper line, our

386
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:17,960
Speaker 1: researcher is today our getaway driver. We speed away.

387
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Speaker 6: Within like the first two minutes. His body he almost

388
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,439
Speaker 6: like got kind of emotional red, like his eyes started

389
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Speaker 6: to get red as if he almost had tears.

390
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 1: Coming into his office. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I noticed that too.

391
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Speaker 6: And he mentioned how when you brought up the fissure

392
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,639
Speaker 6: and all this case and all this stuff, how it

393
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 6: seemed to tie in at this That was also the

394
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 6: same time when him and his wife got divorced, and

395
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Speaker 6: so part of me was like, oh, that's he's getting

396
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 6: emotional because like there's bad blood between him and his

397
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Speaker 6: ex wife and he is dredging that up, is immediately

398
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Speaker 6: making him kind of emotional. As one possible explanation, I.

399
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Speaker 1: Don't so he's seen very nervous. He almost looked like

400
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 1: he was shaking. His face looked like flushbread it's been

401
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's I think it's very different to

402
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 1: ask about somebody's divorce, which is an uncomfortable, sad thing.

403
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 1: But twenty five years later versus showing up asking about

404
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,440
Speaker 1: Robert Fisher, he was definitely off. I mean you could tell,

405
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 1: and at some points I felt like he was giving

406
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 1: me like a death glare. But I mean, I don't

407
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 1: blame him, but.

408
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 6: I mean again just thinking. Also, yeah, the flip side

409
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 6: is like, I don't know, the things you read about

410
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 6: when people get people who are guilty get confronted about stuff,

411
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Speaker 6: they often have a tendency to just keep talking.

412
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Speaker 1: That's what I was thinking too, That's what I was thinking.

413
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 1: It's like I would like he kept speaking. He looked nervous,

414
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: he was a little shaky. I was shaky. So I

415
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 1: was trying to think and observe and look at my questions.

416
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: And he asked for my a business card, so I

417
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,400
Speaker 1: had to pull my wallet out, and you know, now

418
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,120
Speaker 1: I'm like, dear lord, don't find my address. Like, yes,

419
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 1: he was very again, it's under I don't know. He

420
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: seemed off to me, like he was obviously shaken that

421
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 1: we showed up. And I don't blame him for being shaken,

422
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 1: but you know, I mean, I've just like the cops.

423
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 1: I've spoken to a ton of people. The cops spoke

424
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 1: to a ton of people, and you know, he was

425
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 1: he was off. I wonder if you observed, because I

426
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,360
Speaker 1: was looking at him obviously, but my mind was going

427
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 1: like one hundred miles an hour, and I wonder generally,

428
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 1: like physically, see what was interesting to me is he declined?

429
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 1: I didn't he actually see? He started telling me things

430
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: I didn't know, right, so like I didn't know. That's

431
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: why you kind of go in and not bluff, but

432
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 1: you just don't necessarily say, well, this is what I know.

433
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:37,919
Speaker 3: What didn't you know that?

434
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 1: He said, I didn't know that he went down and

435
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: that they asked him to take a lie detective test,

436
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,159
Speaker 1: and he said, no, I didn't know that. Then we

437
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 1: asked him again if he would, basically, why did you

438
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 1: not take one? And I didn't feel like he had

439
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 1: a good answer for that, And we asked about the

440
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: employment record, saying to me was a little bit more

441
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 1: of a red flag because I understand why somebody would

442
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: be nervous about a lie detector tests. I mean, they

443
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: can be they're valuable sometimes, but the employment records is

444
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 1: bizarre to me. Because I asked him, you know, I'll

445
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 1: have to listen, but I asked him flat out, if

446
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 1: somebody asked you today, if would you give them permission

447
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 1: to access your employment records from April two thousand and one?

448
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 1: Would that verify that you know, you didn't take any

449
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: time off from work? And then he said that he

450
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 1: wouldn't more or less because he would, am I remembering

451
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 1: this correctly? More or less because you know, why should

452
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: he because he shouldn't have to prove anything, or at

453
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 1: that point he would involve he said, I think a

454
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 1: professional obviously an attorney so I just find that kind

455
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 1: of weird. I mean, if I I understand nervousness about

456
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 1: a lie detective test, though, you know, I think a

457
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 1: lot of people would just do it to clear themselves

458
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: of any involvement in a multiple murder. But the employment

459
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: records was weirder to me. I think because it's an

460
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: employment record saying whether or not you're at work. I mean,

461
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: it's not that suspicious. So it's more a lot of

462
00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,919
Speaker 1: times it's less about what you're asking you more to

463
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: more about how they're responding to certain things.

464
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 6: I think, Well, especially because unprompted on that request that query,

465
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 6: he was like, I'd probably have to hire an attorney,

466
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 6: or I'd want to hire an attorney.

467
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was like, okay, yeah.

468
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: So I just thought, like if if your employment records,

469
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: like even if you took time off in April doesn't

470
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 1: prove anything. So I just don't know why you get

471
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: so nervous somebody asking about your employment records. It's to me,

472
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 1: it's more of a like you know that there's something

473
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 1: there or other. I don't know. I mean, I'm just

474
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,239
Speaker 1: reading it in my interpretation of it. But he was

475
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 1: definitely shaken and he started to look angry at the end. Oh, yeah,

476
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 1: he looked pissed, so I I to see. As soon

477
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: as he asked us to leave, we left. So yeah,

478
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: we didn't stay, but he didn't ask us to leave.

479
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 1: He his face looked red to me. He looked almost

480
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 1: a little shaky to me.

481
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, And eyes looked like they're almost like water like,

482
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 6: like on the verge of becoming emotional.

483
00:24:59,600 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 3: Yeah.

484
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, the reaction Part two.

485
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: The Fisher murders traumatized hundreds of people. Let's zoom in

486
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 1: and focus on one of them, a ten year old boy,

487
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: Bobby Fisher's friend brock Anderson, whose mom Beth knew Bobby's

488
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: mom Mary. Beth was the last person to see Mary

489
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: and Bobby alive, right before the murders. How did this

490
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: affect your son, who was very young?

491
00:25:50,720 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 7: Horribly? Horribly? Yeah, Well, he was at school and I

492
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 7: went and picked him up because I was scared to

493
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 7: death that he was going to find out from someone else,

494
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 7: And so we told him what had happened, and we

495
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 7: just said that there had been an accident at the

496
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 7: house and that you know, they were We just told him,

497
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 7: we said, they're with Jesus now, you know, how do you,

498
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 7: how do you explain this to a ten year old.

499
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 1: The next day, Beth and Brock visited the Fisher's cul

500
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: de sac.

501
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 7: He cried, it was everybody was just a mess. So

502
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 7: he did take a little animal, stuffed animal that he

503
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 7: could leave for Bobby. And so he asked one of

504
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 7: the I don't know if it was a firefighter or

505
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 7: policeman or whoever was there, if he would be allowed

506
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 7: to take one of the pine cones out of the yard.

507
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 7: And they said, yes, that's fine, that's fine, and he said, well,

508
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 7: Bobby was my buddy and I want a pine cone

509
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 7: from his house. And so they let him take pine

510
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 7: cone and he still has it to this day. So

511
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 7: we didn't stay very long and just left and just

512
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 7: talked about it. You know, what are you feeling, what

513
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 7: are your emotions? How do you feel about all this?

514
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 7: And how can we best help you? I mean, this

515
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 7: poor kid, he had nightmares like every night. He was

516
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 7: so scared Robert he could kill Bobby. Is he going

517
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 7: to come after all Bobby's friends? And I remember him saying,

518
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 7: you know, I was just at their house and Robert

519
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 7: had been to our house before. So he said, Robert,

520
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 7: mister Robert knows where we live. Is he going to

521
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 7: come after everybody and start killing all of us. It

522
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 7: was just the worst. We just said, there's evil in

523
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 7: this world and there are people that do bad things.

524
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 7: And you know, he would say, well, well why, mister Robert.

525
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 7: You know, we don't know. We wish we had all

526
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 7: the answers, not just for you, but for us too.

527
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 7: And Brock was he was a wise kid, and I

528
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 7: think he understood the fact that he lost his buddy.

529
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 7: But I lost a friend too, and so I just

530
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 7: told him we will get through this. It won't be easy,

531
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 7: and it's okay for you to cry. It's okay for

532
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 7: you to yell or scream or throw something or do

533
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 7: whatever you have to do to deal with the pain

534
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 7: that you're feeling.

535
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 8: I do remember the last time I saw Bobby. He

536
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 8: and I were in the color guard for Ajana, and

537
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 8: you know, we had this we would do our drills.

538
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 8: Maybe we were doing drills that night, and we'd have

539
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 8: this term dress right dress, which I guess he would

540
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 8: shift to the right, and his humor, he just yelled out,

541
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 8: dress right undress.

542
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 3: And then we just started laughing and he drove away.

543
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 8: It was just like, okay, that was like my last

544
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,719
Speaker 8: interaction with him was just joy and laughter.

545
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: Brock was at school when Bobby's house blew up.

546
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 8: I think I got out like two forty five that day.

547
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 8: I just remember my parents picking me up. I don't

548
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 8: know how I found out they were, but they were there.

549
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 8: We had a red Chrysler le baron. I saw the

550
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 8: le Baron, I saw both of my parents. I was like, okay,

551
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 8: this was really weird because my dad would typically work,

552
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 8: you know till six or seven, and so that to

553
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 8: me it was when the unusualness started. But I was

554
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 8: more excited of like, oh cool, guys are picking me

555
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 8: up and.

556
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 3: If to take the bus. So went home. My brothers

557
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 3: were there.

558
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 8: My mom let my middle brother and I Grant play

559
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 8: video games, which was unusual for right after school during

560
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 8: a school week.

561
00:29:58,920 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 3: But they're like, yeah, it's fine.

562
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 8: My parents rupsters in their room door closed to which

563
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 8: always meant like okay, sometimes they just need a moment whatever.

564
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: But they were there for it seemed like.

565
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 8: An hour at least, which was also just kind of

566
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 8: like all right, this is a little weird, Like I

567
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 8: don't know, Usually it means like some sort of big

568
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 8: news is following that. So both came down. They brought

569
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 8: my oldest brother down and gathered us. Hey turn that off. Okay,

570
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 8: so again it's like family meeting. Just everything just seemed

571
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 8: kind of like, all right, well, something really big is

572
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 8: going on. I was airing on the side of oh yeah,

573
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 8: we're going to Disneyland or something like that, you know,

574
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 8: something that a ten year old might suspect. But man,

575
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 8: never in my wildest dreams would I have expected that

576
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 8: sort of news. I mean, my dad, you know, very

577
00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 8: very stoic, very just a quiet confident man, you know,

578
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 8: really struggled to say, you know, Mary, Brittany and Bobby

579
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 8: have gone to be with Jesus today, just choked up

580
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 8: and him, you know, showing that emotion.

581
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 3: It was just like whoa.

582
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 8: I mean, it just immediately is in shock, very much denial,

583
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 8: Like no, it was was that even mean, you know,

584
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 8: it just it took it felt like forever for it

585
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 8: to really even remotely start to sink in.

586
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: On April eleventh, two thousand and one, Brock visited what

587
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: was left of twenty two twenty three North seventy fourth Place.

588
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 3: I remember just the house was still smoldering.

589
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: Grieving loved one circled rubble, leaving mementos and putting up flyers,

590
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: trying to make sense of tragedy. So also six months later,

591
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: obviously nine to eleven happened. That's kind of a double

592
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: punch for you at a really important moment of development,

593
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: and I imagine for your sense of safety and how

594
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: you process the world. To have something happen so personal

595
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: in April and then global, but it still extremely upsetting

596
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: in September must have had a very serious impact on

597
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: you for the rest of your life.

598
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, two thousand and one was a healthy year. I was.

599
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 8: I've even talked about this with a couple close friends

600
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 8: of mine, Ryan and Ricky, that you know, I experienced

601
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 8: trauma from a very close perspective to suddenly a nationwide, worldwide.

602
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 3: Thing in a matter of months, And just looking.

603
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 8: Back on that now, it's like, oh my gosh, Like yeah,

604
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,479
Speaker 8: I mean I think back to my ten eleven year

605
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 8: old self and like, yeah, my perspective of people the

606
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 8: world was very shattered, you know where I think it

607
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 8: was just more important for me to just find safety

608
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 8: however I could, and a lot of that was just

609
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 8: through isolation, I remember. Yeah, for a few years really

610
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 8: being like having an immense fear of dark. I haven't

611
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 8: really thought about it much in terms of connecting it

612
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 8: to oh it is Robert, But I remember having those

613
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 8: thoughts as a kid of like, yeah, I think talking

614
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 8: to my mom or dad being like, he's not going

615
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 8: to come after us, right, and they're like, no, I

616
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 8: really don't think so. And I think that's where even

617
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 8: to this day, like my wife can attest to it,

618
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 8: like I.

619
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 3: Just like to make sure things are locked up at home.

620
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,959
Speaker 1: Can you talk to me about how you, as an adult,

621
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: have realized ways that you've turned out as a human being, personality, traits,

622
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,479
Speaker 1: your mental health, things that you've been through. Obviously there

623
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: are many causes and from genetics to a million other

624
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: things in your life. It's not all Robert Fisher. But

625
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: how have you connected the dots to understand the parts

626
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: of you that were deeply affected in a way that

627
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: you probably didn't realize until you were older and an adult.

628
00:33:54,840 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, how difficult relationships were and still kind of ore

629
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 8: for me, you know. I mean that's I look back on,

630
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 8: you know, when I first went to therapy. I think

631
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 8: that was when it started to sink in for me.

632
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 8: Of like, oh, like I was.

633
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was.

634
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 8: I was generally a shy kid, you know, growing up,

635
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 8: and I was just just more of my demeanor who

636
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 8: I was.

637
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 4: You know.

638
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 8: I have my family's background or roots or Midwest and

639
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 8: East Coast, but I think I got more of the

640
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 8: Midwest kind of just quiet and to myself, but more

641
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 8: of a physical presence kind of person. So I think

642
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 8: just looking back on, yeah, my friendship with Bobby and.

643
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 3: Just how that can be severed so quickly.

644
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 8: I mean that just from that time on, you know,

645
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 8: into middle school and high school, like I had friends,

646
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 8: but I just I was very just to myself. That

647
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 8: was just kind of what I referred. But deep down though,

648
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 8: there was that longing, like this tension within me of like, man,

649
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 8: I just like I want friends, I want to have connection.

650
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 8: I had mentioned in a different interview of feeling suicidal

651
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 8: at times, and I think I look back on that now,

652
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 8: it's like, yeah, I was so alone, you know, and

653
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 8: that was what I felt like was protective for me.

654
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 8: But also looking at as like my human interaction was

655
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 8: very limited. I had my family, and honestly, like I

656
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 8: think they kept me going.

657
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 3: You know.

658
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: I imagine for you as a kid who was. It

659
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: sounds like you were more introverted, and so was I.

660
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: The friends that you do have are very valuable to you,

661
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 1: and you would have grown up alongside Bobby. You guys

662
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: would probably still be friends today. I imagine it was

663
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: difficult to go through graduation, to go through all the

664
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: different little milestones of life, and to know that this

665
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: friend you had was taken from you. It's not exactly

666
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 1: the same, but when I was twenty eight, my oldest

667
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: friend was we met when we were nine. In twenty sixteen,

668
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 1: he passed from cancer and was a one in a

669
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: literally a one in one million cancer.

670
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 3: Right, It's like, what are.

671
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: The what are the literally one in one million is

672
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: such an ex It's a called uing sarcoma is a

673
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: very rare.

674
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 3: But we right after we were born one day apart.

675
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 1: We grew up two houses down from each other, and

676
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: it's I got to live to be into my late

677
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 1: twenties with him as my literally literally my oldest friend

678
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: and the only friend that I've lost like that happened

679
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: to be somebody so close and somebody that I knew

680
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: since I was nine years old. Wow, sorry about that last,

681
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,240
Speaker 1: but it's always there with you and I had another

682
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: eighteen years of memories that you didn't get with your friend.

683
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: How do you balance keeping the memories alive without letting

684
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: them consume you.

685
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question.

686
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 8: Certainly for me when I started to go to therapy,

687
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 8: I mean that was like really having a space to

688
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 8: just talk about it, you know, talk about what happened,

689
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 8: and yeah, yeah, I have a trained professional help me

690
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 8: through the different issues the trauma itself. But I think

691
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 8: that having so I have these you know, two really

692
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 8: close friends, Ryan and Ricky, like that those guys have

693
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 8: been so redeeming for me and relationships how I view

694
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 8: friendship now. They've brought a lot of healing for me,

695
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 8: and I think just really leaning into that and more

696
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 8: of the present. And it's hard to describe, I guess,

697
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 8: the balancing act, but I think for me, I had to.

698
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 8: I had to face the things that were really uncomfortable

699
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 8: for me through therapy, and I think a part of

700
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 8: that was a decision to not just get so consumed

701
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 8: by this terrible thing happened. Where's Robert. It's Robert, Robert,

702
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 8: you know. I think just getting so fixated on that

703
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 8: left me really stuck. So I think I had to

704
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 8: look at it and say, Okay, well, I may never

705
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 8: see justice for Robert, you know, in the sense of

706
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 8: like apprehension and put on.

707
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 3: Trial and put to or whatever. You know.

708
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 8: I had to accept I may never see that in

709
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 8: my life, and for me, like, there has to be

710
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 8: a level of acceptance and okayness with that. And I

711
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 8: think that was where I started to see my life

712
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 8: as my life apart from this tragedy.

713
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 1: On April tenth, twenty sixteen, the fifteenth anniversary of the murders,

714
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: Brock proposed to his girlfriend.

715
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 8: I wanted to use that for as a symbolism of okay,

716
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 8: and that's not the end of the story here, like

717
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 8: new life happens and starts on this day.

718
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 7: It was a beautiful proposal. We had a party for

719
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 7: them at the house and he told everybody that was there.

720
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 7: You know, they thanked everybody for coming, but he said,

721
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 7: I just have to share with you guys that he said,

722
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 7: this day is very meaningful to me. One side is hard,

723
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 7: and a lot of people that were there, not everybody,

724
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 7: but several people knew what had happened with the Fishers,

725
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 7: but maybe they didn't connect that. Oh gosh, today is

726
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,280
Speaker 7: April tenth. This is an anniversary day. So he told everybody,

727
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 7: he said, you know, April tenth has always been a

728
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 7: rough day for me and a negative day. It brings

729
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 7: back negative memories. So he said, I purposely chose and

730
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 7: he told them why. He said, I purposely chose this

731
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 7: day because I want to change that in my head.

732
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 7: I want this to become a day of celebration. And

733
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 7: our daughter in law is She's just amazing and she

734
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 7: I think was very influential in being able to help

735
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 7: Brock kind of find his way. So he went back

736
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 7: to school, graduated from ASU, and then decided he wants

737
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 7: to be a therapist. So that's what he did. He

738
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 7: got his master's so he is now a family and

739
00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:01,439
Speaker 7: marriage therapist and I just I hang onto that. It's

740
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 7: like you go, kid. I mean because from that day

741
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 7: in two thousand and one to where he is now

742
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 7: is just And when he first told us he wanted

743
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 7: to pursue therapy as a career, I said, do you

744
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 7: have any idea what kind? And he said, right now,

745
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 7: I'm thinking trauma. Like okay, He's like, you know, after

746
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 7: what I went through and losing my friend at ten

747
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 7: years old and trying to deal with all the garbage

748
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 7: that comes with that through the years. It was a

749
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 7: long process for him. He got counseling as an adult,

750
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 7: you know, to deal with it. I didn't realize that

751
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 7: he was still needing counseling. It's like, gosh, this is

752
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 7: still hanging heavy on me. So he got help that

753
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 7: he needed and now here he is helping others. So

754
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 7: very proud of that. I think that's a positive thing

755
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 7: that he's been able to do, taking something so bad

756
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 7: and turning it into a positive.

757
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 8: This journey has really been from the Fisher story my

758
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 8: own healing and I think also finding a renewed sense

759
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 8: of okay, like back to the closure thing, what does

760
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 8: my life look like now? And that comes back to

761
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 8: this place of justice. People think of justice sure in

762
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 8: some ways of you know, apprehension the whole thing. For me,

763
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 8: I started to view justice.

764
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 3: And well, what would Mary and Brittany and Bobby want.

765
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 3: You know, they were people, they were humans.

766
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 8: Bobby I think he loved his dad. You know, he

767
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 8: has a kid, Brittany, same thing Mary, you know, yeah,

768
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 8: his wife going through a lot and a lot of

769
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 8: turmoil there. But what would they want?

770
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 3: You know?

771
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 8: And that I really wrestled with that the more recent

772
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 8: years with my friends and thinking through like I think

773
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 8: justice would be helping people that hurt, whether it's the

774
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 8: Robert Fishers of the world or the victims these the people,

775
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 8: the survivors of this kind of stuff.

776
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: It's really interesting. I was about to ask you that

777
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: the previous interview you did, I've never heard anybody empathize

778
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: with the Robert Fishers of the world. Obviously you're not

779
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: empathizing with the action, sure, but to prevent things like

780
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: this from happening, people like that need help too. I

781
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: thought that was a fascinating perspective, and it's something that

782
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: most people just don't voice. They don't They either don't

783
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: think it or they don't want to voice it. But yeah,

784
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: you're not. Part of it is, Yes, you want to

785
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 1: help people like that obviously who have demons, but part

786
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 1: of it is also to protect everybody else, right.

787
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 3: Sure.

788
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: On April tenth, twenty twenty, Good Friday, the nineteenth anniversary

789
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 1: of the murders, as the COVID pandemic raged, Brock drove

790
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: to Young Arizona with his friends Ryan and Ricky. He

791
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,879
Speaker 1: wanted to reminisce, pray, make peace, They started in Scottsdale

792
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: at the cemetery where Mary, Brittany and Bobby are interred,

793
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: went to the Fisher's cul de Sac, then the Chase Bank,

794
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: where Robert took out two hundred and eighty dollars. The

795
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 1: night of April ninth, two thousand and one, they withdrew

796
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: two hundred and eighty dollars, then drove to sup By

797
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 1: Middle School, Scottsdale Baptist Church, and finally young Ricky led

798
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 1: them in communion. They enjoyed dinner. The next day they

799
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,240
Speaker 1: started looking for the fore Runner spot. In an email,

800
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: Brock said, quote on the drive, I experienced a panic

801
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: attack and felt the weight of encountering the place literally

802
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: and metaphorically. That represented what I knew then to be

803
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 1: the finality of the Fisher's story. We set out to

804
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 1: go cave searching and didn't find a single one. Instead,

805
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: we traversed down into a valley, almost got lost in

806
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,240
Speaker 1: the forest. Ricky, a marine veteran, would beg to differ

807
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: and experienced all four seasons of weather fog, rain, snow, sunshine, cold,

808
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: t warm, and back. Brock sat on a log, wrote

809
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: a letter addressed it to Robert Fisher drove back to

810
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: Scottsdale and on Easter set it down at the cemetery,

811
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: got up and left.

812
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 8: April eleventh, twenty twenty Robert Fisher, we may never find

813
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 8: you here on this earth. There is a chance you

814
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 8: might have died years ago, and you could also still

815
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 8: be alive, living a different life. God knows where you are,

816
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 8: and I submit to that. Anger no longer carries any

817
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 8: power over me. I have been set free. It is

818
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 8: only through the love, grace and redemption of Jesus that

819
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 8: I forgive you for what you have done to your family.

820
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 8: I forgive you, Robert. I hope that confession and repentance

821
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 8: find you, and that the truth sets you free from

822
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 8: what you have done. In the name of our Lord

823
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 8: and Savior, Jesus, you are forgiven, and in the name

824
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 8: of Jesus, I commit myself to loving and helping the

825
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 8: broken and hurting. I would even help you if I

826
00:44:58,360 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 8: ever got the chance.

827
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 3: Brock.

828
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: If you like this show, please download our first two seasons,

829
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven. For updates,

830
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: visit me on thirty three dot com or follow me

831
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: on Twitter at John Waalzac j O n W A L. Czak.

832
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.

833
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: The Reaction Part three.

834
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,240
Speaker 1: To close out this season, I have one more interview

835
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,720
Speaker 1: for you, a phone call I almost didn't make because

836
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: at some point I have to stop investigating and start

837
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: writing right wrong. I'll never stop investigating, and this is why,

838
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: because calls that seem unimportant, mundane even are often critical.

839
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 4: Hello.

840
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 9: This is Lynn.

841
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 1: Lynn Mashorn is a retired nurse. She worked with Robert

842
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: Fisher from the late eighties to the late nineties at

843
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: Scott Still Memorial Hospital.

844
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 9: I kind of just knew him the whole time I

845
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 9: worked there. I think he was originally in respiratory and

846
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 9: went to see thee monitoring.

847
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: Lynn was the ICU charged nurse leading a team of

848
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,479
Speaker 1: medical professionals at a Level one trauma center, including Robert

849
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,720
Speaker 1: Fisher when he worked the night shift. She remembers Robert

850
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,879
Speaker 1: as respectful and kind a quote really great guy.

851
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 9: We used to do. He was kind of an exercise junkie,

852
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 9: so we used to on slow nights, we used to

853
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 9: do the stairs. We'd get in the stairwell and run

854
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 9: up and down the stairs, just the pastime, you know.

855
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 9: He used to brag about how and I never knew

856
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 9: whether it was true or not. How he had trained

857
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 9: to be a Navy seal, and so he had all

858
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 9: these mad survival skills and all this great fitness and stuff.

859
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 9: And you know, looking at him, you'd say, yeah, I

860
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 9: could see that, because it was clear that he worked.

861
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 4: Out a lot.

862
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: T Lynn Robert was normal, bland, even vanilla. Nothing stands

863
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: out with one exception.

864
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,280
Speaker 9: He worked in surgery with my husband.

865
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 1: Richard Mashorn, a heart surgeon.

866
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 9: And he knew that my husband had been a had

867
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 9: originally studied to be a Lutheran minister before he became

868
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 9: a surgeon, and so he my husband commented to me

869
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 9: that one day he was talking to him and he said, so,

870
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 9: doctor Mashorn, and I'm paraphrasing this because I can't exactly

871
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 9: remember how he phrased the question, but it struck my

872
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 9: husband as odd, something about is killing someone always a

873
00:47:55,680 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 9: sin in the eyes of God? And you know, this

874
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 9: was prior to anything happening, So my husband only recalled

875
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 9: it after the incident because then it struck him as weird.

876
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 9: And then another thing I remember is that, and I'm

877
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 9: going to say this was within a year of the incident,

878
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 9: I was hiking camelback mountains from the Echo Canyon side,

879
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 9: which is the east side, and I was coming down

880
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 9: and he was coming up. Now this was after he

881
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 9: was supposedly gone and missing, but he was hiking up

882
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 9: and he was alone, and as soon as we locked eyes,

883
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 9: he turned around and ran, not down the trail, but

884
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 9: ran cross country down hill. And so this was before.

885
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 9: I mean, I didn't have a cell phone or anything.

886
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 9: So I think I called the police when I got home.

887
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 9: But yeah, I'm sure there's no record of that, and

888
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 9: it was too late, you know, he was long gone.

889
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 9: I'm sure this. Yeah, it was after. It was probably

890
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 9: within a year year and a half after, so he

891
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 9: was back in the valley at some point.

892
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 4: How confident are you that it was him?

893
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 9: We locked eyes and he bolted. So we worked together

894
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 9: long enough to know each other.

895
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 4: Do you remember what time of year it was? No?

896
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 4: So and then so? Were you by yourself or were

897
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:47,879
Speaker 4: you with anyone at the time?

898
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 9: Well? I was with my husband.

899
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 4: Does he remember this as well?

900
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 9: Yes?

901
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 4: So you said you called the police. Do you remember

902
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 4: did you call Scot Sale or did you call it

903
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 4: different police department?

904
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 9: I have no recollection of who I called or if

905
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 9: I really did I can't remember for sure.

906
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 4: If you didn't, do you know why you would not

907
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 4: have called.

908
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 9: There might have been a tip line or something that

909
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 9: I reported to. I'm just not sure. Sorry, long time ago.

910
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, no worries. So you can you tell me? Do

911
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 4: you mind telling me the whole story again, just from

912
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 4: the beginning, kind of you kind of caught me off guard.

913
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:40,320
Speaker 9: My husband I were hiking Camelback Mountain on the east

914
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 9: side and we were coming down. I was ahead of

915
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 9: my husband and Bob Fisher was coming up and he

916
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 9: saw me, and I saw him, and he turned around

917
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 9: and bolted downhill, cross country, downhill, not on the trail,

918
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 9: and ran very fast. He's a great athlete and on

919
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 9: a scale.

920
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 4: And how sure you that it was I was.

921
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 9: I'm ninety five percent sure it was him.

922
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 4: And so I mean you work with him for over

923
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 4: a decade, right, yeah, I did. So you saw him

924
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 4: a lot. I mean, it's not like you saw him

925
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 4: as some times. You were very familiar with what you

926
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 4: looked like, right, do you so to your recollection, did

927
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 4: you definitely phone that in or do you are you

928
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,280
Speaker 4: not sure if you called the type end I'm not sure.

929
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 4: H Well, that is very interesting. Have you shared that

930
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 4: with anybody in the years since?

931
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 9: Yeah?

932
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 3: Have you?

933
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 4: Have you been contacted or interviewed by law enforcement? Ever?

934
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 9: No, That's why I'm not sure. If I called it in,

935
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 9: to be honest, I might have gotten home and thought, well,

936
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 9: it's too late now he's long gone. Sorry, I can't remember.

937
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 4: No, no worries. M Do you remember what he was wearing?

938
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 9: A ball cap and a T shirt and shorts. That's

939
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 9: all I remember. Ah, he didn't have much hair, so

940
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:39,399
Speaker 9: he always wore a ball cap.

941
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 4: And your your husband saw him? Did your husband also

942
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 4: recognize him as Robert Fusher?

943
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 9: He says he did?

944
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 4: What did he possible for me to speak to your husband?

945
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:51,240
Speaker 4: At some point?

946
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 9: It would not he's passed away.

947
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 4: Oh man, I'm sorry. When did? When did he pass?

948
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:06,839
Speaker 4: April of us here, I'm sorry to hear that me too.

949
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: Richard died only nine days before I got to Phoenix

950
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: to report this story to recap. Lynn Mashorn and I

951
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 1: see you. Nurse who worked with Robert Fisher for a decade,

952
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: says she and her husband ran into Fisher while hiking

953
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 1: Camelback Mountain in two thousand and two. Intriguing, But I've

954
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 1: heard something like this a half dozen times, people who

955
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 1: knew Fisher swearing they saw him. Law enforcement investigated those leads.

956
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: It was never him. This is different. Why because of

957
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: the man's reaction, There are only three options. One Lynn

958
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: is lying. I don't think so. I believe her. She

959
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:47,760
Speaker 1: knew Fisher well and never sought media attention. Two Lynn

960
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 1: saw someone who looked like Fisher but wasn't. This doesn't

961
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 1: make sense. Why would he lock eyes with her panic

962
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 1: and run down the side of a mountain so rapidly

963
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 1: he didn't even take a trail unless three when actually

964
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: saw Robert Fisher. This is what I believe, because again,

965
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 1: of the man's reaction.

966
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 9: I thought at the time it was awfully cavalier of

967
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 9: him to show his face in public like that, even

968
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 9: though you know chances are that you'd get recognized and

969
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,240
Speaker 9: something like that. It's pretty slim, but it happened.

970
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 4: And I apologize to push on details. But do you

971
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 4: you don't remember what time of year, what season or

972
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 4: anything it was? I do not, Nope, And do you

973
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 4: mind telling me one more time exactly where you came

974
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 4: up and where this occurb.

975
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 9: The east side of Camelback Mountain is called Echo Canyon. Side,

976
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 9: So I was coming down and it was probably in

977
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 9: the lower quarter he was coming up.

978
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 4: And so when you ran into him the east side

979
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 4: of Camelback Mountain, just to I just want to make

980
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 4: sure I'm one hundred percent certain this was after the

981
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 4: murders occurb. Yes, And so when you saw him, how

982
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 4: long did it take for you to recognize him instantly?

983
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 9: And I was assured it was him when he turned

984
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 9: around and ran?

985
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 4: How quickly did he run immediately as soon as we

986
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 4: locked eyes? Has anybody ever interviewed you before, either media

987
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 4: or law enforcement? No, this is the first time anybody

988
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 4: has asked you about him.

989
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:31,720
Speaker 7: Yep.

990
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 4: Does that surprise you.

991
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 9: Yes, because you think that you'd think that the police

992
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 9: would have interviewed everyone who worked with him, and clearly

993
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 9: they did not, because none of my friends have been

994
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 9: interviewed unless there's somebody you spoke to, But none of

995
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 9: the people who I know who've worked with him have

996
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 9: ever been contacted by the police.

997
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,839
Speaker 4: When you saw him on Camelback Mountain, how long did

998
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 4: you lock eyes with him? Momentarily and then he literally

999
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 4: turned and ran. Yes, and he ran down the mountain.

1000
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, not on the trail, though he ran cross country,

1001
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 9: down the mountain, down the hillside.

1002
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 4: How long after that were you able to see him

1003
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 4: before he vanished out of your high line?

1004
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 3: Hi?

1005
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 9: Fight a minute two, So you see him. I turned

1006
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 9: around and went back up to where my husband was

1007
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 9: to see if he had seen him, and he said, yeah,

1008
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 9: I thought that was him.

1009
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 4: So you were a little bit further down from your husband, yes,

1010
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,240
Speaker 4: And you mentioned what he was wearing. Do you remember

1011
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 4: any other details? No? Did he have any equipment with him, like.

1012
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 9: A backpack, it's possible.

1013
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 4: Did he have a dog with him?

1014
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 9: No, he did not. There's no dogs allowed on that side, gotcha,

1015
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 9: there weren't. There weren't at the time.

1016
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 4: And how far from wherever you parked. How far of

1017
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 4: a hike had it been for you to get where

1018
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:23,919
Speaker 4: you were?

1019
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 9: Quite a way? Well, like I said, we were coming down,

1020
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 9: so we had been up and were coming down, and

1021
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 9: we were probably three quarters of the way down, so

1022
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 9: it was another half mile back to the car at least.

1023
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 4: That's This is just fascinating to me because you know,

1024
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 4: there have been a million leads over the years, and

1025
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 4: including multiple co workers who thought they saw him. But

1026
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 4: it's very different if you'd think you see him any runs.

1027
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, well.

1028
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 9: That was what you know, It's that momentary, Hey, I

1029
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 9: think you're you. And as soon as he turned and ran,

1030
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 9: I was like, then I was sure. And we were

1031
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 9: probably twenty feet apart, you.

1032
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 4: Know, so he was Was he coming up at that point?

1033
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 9: He was, Yeah, he was coming up. So it couldn't

1034
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 9: have been in It couldn't have been in the dead

1035
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 9: of summer because he would have been starting way too late.

1036
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 9: So it was probably in one of the shoulder seasons.

1037
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 4: That's and this is very fascinating to me. Well, hey,

1038
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 4: I really appreciate you speaking with me. This is this

1039
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 4: is why I reach out to everybody, because you never

1040
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 4: know what you're going to hear.

1041
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: And so this saga ends for now, but it also

1042
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: begins on Camelback Mountain. Before we go, let me say

1043
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: a few things Mary, Brittany, and Bobby I know, in

1044
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 1: some small way in this moment, I've been your voice.

1045
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 1: I hope I've done you justice. To law enforcement, I've

1046
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 1: dug up new information, please act on it. To everyone

1047
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 1: who spoke with us, I appreciate you. To our team,

1048
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,560
Speaker 1: especially Paul Deckan, Ben Bowen, and Chris Brown, thank you

1049
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 1: for pouring your hearts into this show alongside me. To

1050
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 1: our audience, please go to Neon thirty three dot com

1051
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: share the wanted poster. Did Robert Fisher live past April

1052
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: two thousand and one? Yes, now let's find him when

1053
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 1: you come in a crime.

1054
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 9: Where Essie.

1055
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: That is out.

1056
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 3: There guns inside.

1057
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 8: If you begin to saw well, chat our.

1058
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 3: Film seriously, you can restless though.

1059
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 1: A landa all. You can reach us by phone at

1060
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: one eight three three new tips that's one eight three

1061
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: three six three nine eight four seven seven by email

1062
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: at tips at iHeartMedia dot com, t I p s

1063
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: at iHeartMedia dot com, online at Neon thirty three dot com,

1064
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: or on Twitter at John Wallzac, Jo n Wa l Czak.

1065
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 1: Paul Ducan is our executive producer, Chris Brown is our

1066
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,640
Speaker 1: supervising producer. Hannah Rose Snyder is our producer. Paul Gemberlin

1067
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 1: is our researcher, Ben Bolan is a consulting producer, and

1068
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 1: I'm your host and executive producer John Wallzac. Additional production

1069
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: support provided by Ben Hackett. Cover art by Pam Peacock.

1070
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 1: Neon thirty three logo designed by Derek Rudy. Our intro

1071
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 1: song is Utopia by ruby Cube. Please download the first

1072
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 1: two seasons of our show, Missing in Alaska and Missing

1073
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 1: on nine to eleven, and if you're so inclined, give

1074
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 1: us a five star rating. Missing in Arizona is a

1075
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,160
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1076
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:50,880
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